April 6, 2020 • 23 mins
We’re almost at the end of Season 1, so I’m very happy to squeeze in an episode with a scientist before the end of the series. Sanford Browne has a background in microbiology and, at the time of recording, was the VP of Research and Innovation at L'Oréal China. He has since been promoted to the SVP position covering all of Asia Pacific and has also moved to Tokyo, so we were lucky to catch him while we could. From a scientific perspective, our discussion ranges from the cuticle angles of hair to the affects of urbanisation on skin. But the most fascinating parts of our chat are when Sanford links his knowledge of science to his knowledge of the Chinese consumer, and reveals how these two factors together are influencing the world of beauty research and innovation globally. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:09 - Part 1 13:23 - Part 2 21:54 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]SB: Literally,
(00:03):
I could not even put half my foot in. And we hadarguments that they were fine. And it was like,
“Fine for whom?!” because, it's like, itactually has to be able to fit on my foot.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making their markin China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. So today is
(00:24):
the penultimate episode of the series, Episode 29.I have some good news about what's coming next,
which I will be saying more about inthe next episode. In the meantime,
let me quickly address a question that I receivedonline. It was about the risks of a second wave
of the Coronavirus here in China. The shortanswer is that we simply don't know right now,
‘now' being April 7 2020. I wouldhate to say that the risks are low,
(00:49):
and then for things to change. But here iswhat they're doing about it in Shanghai,
at least. At the airport, they're testing everypassenger who arrives on international flights.
And they monitor their quarantine with littlesensors that they put on your doors. These
sensors go off if you open your door morethan twice a day for two minutes each time,
allowing you to do things like take deliveries,or throw out the rubbish. And for the rest of us
(01:12):
who have been here the whole time, if you leaveShanghai even just to neighbouring provinces,
when you come back you need to go through the 14days of quarantine again. So those are the rules
that are giving us a little bit of comfort thatthere won't be a second wave. Who knows how long
these rules will last, that’s the big questionfor me right now, because I'm guessing that if
other countries don’t put similar things intoplace, then they could be around for a long time.
(01:36):
My guest today is actually a friend of mine, it’sSanford Brown, who at the time of recording was
the VP of Research and Innovation at L'OréalChina. He has since been promoted to the SVP
position covering all of Asia Pacific, and hasrelocated to Tokyo, so I was lucky to grab him
before he left. I'm also very grateful becauseas a microbiologist*, Sanford represents the one
(01:58):
scientist that I managed to squeeze into Season1 of the series. And he talks in a way that
makes something quite complicated, incrediblyeasy for the likes of you and I to digest.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for
coming in today, Sanford.SB: Thanks.
OF (02:13):
So I asked everyone here to bring in an object that in some way represents what they're doing
here in China. So what have you brought today?SB: So, it's artificial skin. And what we've
done is taken a cell of Chinese skin, and thengrown skin, much like you've heard for grafting,
where people have burns. It’s the same technologythat we're using to really recreate a three
(02:35):
dimensional skin. What's different about thisis, we have to make sure that every single one
is exactly the same. And the purpose of this… sothis is a 10 year effort, and it's building off
of work that we've done in the past in France. Andwhat we use it first and foremost is for safety.
As L'Oréal was founded by a chemist over 100 yearsago, creating the first hair colour that was safe,
(02:59):
safety has been a non-negotiable for the companyever since. So we take the raw materials in the
products that we're using, and we test them here,on this artificial skin, to ensure that there's
no adverse reactions. That's first and foremost.And now we've taken it one step further with the
Chinese skin, and have been able to also testit for efficacy. So for example, we were able
(03:23):
to see how whitening products work in termsof melanocytes, same thing in terms of ageing,
so we use that also for performance. So safetyand efficacy. And to avoid animal testing. So we
haven't done any animal testing in the company for30 years. So we've commercialised this EpiSkinTM,
and now we make it available to researchuniversities, government agencies - that we've
(03:49):
actually helped train to be able to run this typeof testing - and even offer it to our competition.
Wow, that's fascinating. I will definitely post a photo of that artificial skin on social
media, it probably is not what people expectto see, actually. It’s quite interesting, these
12 wells. And what else do you do in the lab?SB: In China, we really cover from fundamental
(04:12):
upstream research - trying to create newmolecules, or partnering with other startups - all
the way through down to creating the finishedproducts - for skin, for makeup, and for hair - to
really meet the needs of the Chinese consumer.OF: At what stage in the process, then,
do you use the end user, the consumer?SB: So we would begin very early on in
(04:36):
understanding the raw material, forexample, that we may be looking at,
and seeing how it performs at a molecularlevel. And we have special microscopes that
actually give us almost an X-ray effectthat we can see how it penetrates in three
dimensions for performance. And then whenwe have this type of level of performance,
we then start bringing in consumers. So we canbring 100-200 consumers a day into our facility,
(05:02):
and we help co-create the innovations with them.What's really key to success is rapid iteration.
So test, fail, learn, test, fail, learn, beingable to do that multiple times, and really doing
that holistically. So you bring in all aspectsof the product - the performance characteristics,
that texture, the fragrance, the packaging- much more holistically. And that allows
(05:26):
us to move much faster into the marketplace.OF: So which is the actual starting point?
Is the starting point the technologythat is available to you, or is the
starting point what you hear the consumer needs?SB: Really, it's the intersection of the two,
it can happen both ways, what we call ‘technicalpush’ or ‘consumer pull’. But usually,
a real innovation or invention happens at theintersection between what is more cutting edge of
(05:51):
what's technically possible, and where consumers’aspirations - where they want to go - meet.
And that's why we have upstream scientists andexperts that really are the best in their field,
and we also have consumer scientists who work interms of both evaluation and really understanding
the trends of what's coming next.OF: I like that phrase “Consumer
(06:12):
Pull and Technical Push”, there mustbe, sometimes, a gap between the two,
like, have you had an examples of where you'vebeen trying to push something technologically,
but the consumers just didn’t want it?SB: Yes, that that definitely happens.
And then, that's why it's really important tounderstand what is it that the consumer wants,
and what is it that they're really evaluatingfor. You might have technology that can work,
(06:35):
but how you apply it on the facedoesn't feel like it's penetrating,
doesn't give a nice glow to the skin, then itjust doesn't work. So we have to stop there.
And because the consumers in the end arevery smart. And if you just say something
and the product doesn't deliver it, it's notgoing to work. Particularly in today's world,
where you have so much e-commerce, andreviews, and key opinion leaders. It's
(06:57):
really critical that we get that right.OF: Well, you mentioned the consumer there.
So let's talk about the consumer,specifically here in China. Have
you noticed anything unique about this market?SB: Most definitely. So I think it's really been
transformative, and it continues to transformat an amazing rate. So if I just go back, say,
five years ago, at that point in skincare, mostof the skincare products were really very much a
(07:24):
Western product with a little bit of adaptation.And so, they believed that those Western products
were good quality. Maybe they didn't workexactly the way I wanted them to, but they
were still good quality. Makeup was not used much,hair colour was just covering grey, mostly men,
there wasn't too much of this… Today, a completelydifferent scenario. The Chinese consumer for skin
(07:46):
is super demanding. So in the context, you mightlook, as a Caucasian, at Chinese and Asians’ skin
for ageing and say “Ah, you know, they don'tseem to age, you know, at the same pace”.
Right, right. SB
They don't have the deep-set wrinkles that tendto happen in terms of Caucasians. But at the same
(08:07):
time what we find is, the consumer - the Chineseconsumer - she’s super sensitive. She really looks
around her eyes, around the forehead, around themouth, and those little fine lines, she notices,
and she's very, very conscious of. And so thismakes her super demanding. Same with hair colour,
because it's completely different when you'redoing it on dark hair. It's much harder. And
(08:31):
Chinese hair is actually the most susceptible todamage. It has the highest cuticle angles - so,
cuticle is where the hairs go… scales, likeone on top of the other - it’s naturally
at a higher angle, which means damage canhappen very easily. So we have to make sure,
not only do you have really the strong coloureffect, but at the same time have no damage at
(08:52):
all to the hair. So that caring aspect, andperformance, are trade offs. So these things
are always changing and evolving. And this is howwe've created new products. And these new products
have started to go into the West as well. They cantranslate from China successfully into the world,
which was not the case at all five years ago.OF: You know, as we're talking, it's reminding
(09:15):
me of an interview I did with Maple ZUO,and she grew up in Inner Mongolia. And I
do remember distinctly, she said the firsttime she saw anyone with makeup was actually
when she saw a prostitute with red lipstick.I wonder, like, what has the history been in
the last generation about skincare and makeup.SB: Well I have a similar experience from when I
was travelling back as a student around China in1988. The first time I saw anyone with lipstick
(09:41):
was actually in Nanjing train station. And theywere prostitutes, and there were people who were
asking me to pay money to sit there, otherwiseI would be robbed. So it was the only experience
like that, so I can relate. But today it'scompletely different. It's very traditional, in
the world, that you would see - if you're a younggirl - you’d see your mother or your older sister
(10:03):
putting on makeup, and you’d try that as a kid.And so then you get to being a pre-teen, and you
start to do that. This generation never had that,their mother didn't really - except for Chinese
New Year or a wedding - would not really wearmakeup on a regular basis. So she's had to learn
all of these things herself. And what we find is,actually she's super demanding. And as a single
child with two working parents, and sometimeseven four sets of grandparents, they have cash.
(10:27):
So they go in, they will buy their first lipstick- it would often be a luxury lipstick - and then
that makes them set a very high standard, fromthe beginning, of what they expect in terms of
performance, in terms of perceived value.OF: And we've been saying ‘China’ sometimes
in the same breath as ‘Asia’, butwhat are the differences between,
let's say, the Chinese consumer andthe other consumers here in North Asia,
(10:50):
let's say the Koreans, the Japanese.SB: So there are some similarities,
and there are some differences. So for example,even things like whitening: so Japanese tend
to want more of an almost porcelain white, whereChinese want to have more of a rosy glow. Chinese
are also much more pragmatic. Japanese tend tohave - depending on which segment, if you're
(11:12):
very luxury or hyper luxury - you will have a veryset routine with products, only in there. Chinese
will look at, what is the best product and Iwill mix a luxury product with mass product,
because I want to pick what is the best value.And ‘best value’ means I'm willing to spend if
it really delivers it. If it doesn't, then then Iwon't. So that's also for us to make sure that we
(11:32):
really have what we call ‘hero products’, thatconsumers can really see a difference in these,
and they really make a big performance.OF: What is coming down the pipeline? So if
you can talk in general terms about the futureof what we're seeing in skincare, haircare and
makeup, what trends do you see coming up?SB: So, I think there's a convergence of a
number of different technologies and environmentalfactors that are going to come into play. And
(11:59):
particularly in Asia. You have aspects like moreurbanisation. So we’ve already seen this happen,
huge shifts. In terms of China, now 55, ormore percent of the population living in
urban centres. But that puts pressure on howpeople live, you see more in terms of tensions
with pollution and water scarcity. So thatall is going to affect people's daily life,
(12:21):
and be able to actually alter what are theproducts that they want to get. How do they feel,
more tired for the skin? How UV rays affectskin, and actually the longer-wavelength UVA,
which actually does the damage, and even oncloudy days that can penetrate. We found that
plus pollution actually has a negative synergisticeffect on skin health. So you're going to have
that (12:43):
urbanisation. You’re going to have smart materials
go and attack a specific gene or part of the skin.So it's really quite exciting in terms of what
will happen, and I think what's most definitelygoing to happen is China is going to play an
instrumental role in in that future.OF: Alright, well, now I get it.
(13:05):
Now I can see why you'll say busy.SB: The positive part about that is
there's job security. So it's not something thatyou reach an endpoint, which makes it exciting.
OF (13:17):
Fascinating. Well, thank you. We're gonna move on now to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: So, Question 1, do you
have any favourite word or phrase in Chinese?SB: 千里之行，始於足下 [Qiānlǐ zhī xíng, shǐ yú zúxià],
which roughly translates into (13:32):
‘A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a first step’. And that, to me,
is a very inspiring way to really think about,when you want to do something, and you're not
exactly sure how to do it, begin. And just thatfirst step will have a real big impact. And so,
(13:56):
that's one of the aspects of how I live mylife. And it's also how we've developed the
R&I Centre here in China.OF: Amen. What is your
favourite destination within China?SB: That's a very hard question,
you know. I’m Canadian, and China's is almostthe same size as Canada, it’s a huge country.
I've been to a lot of places, but still onlyjust a few. One, I only went in 1988, so it
(14:21):
may be completely different now. And the contextwas, you know, everything was just, back then,
an assault on my senses. It was not anythingthat I’d seen before, so crowded, bicycles
that went everywhere, the buses had no airconditioning (it was during the summer). And then,
(14:42):
I went to a city called 曲阜 [Qūfù]. And that wasthe birthplace of Confucius. And they had a park
with a graveyard and a restaurant. And what struckme there - and again, it may not be anything like
that today - it was just so quiet. So it was thecontrast, versus everything else. Which is also,
(15:02):
again, one of the themes that I feel all thetime in China, is you see these big contrasts.
And that really stood out. And the second onewas more recently, I went with my wife and a
bunch of friends on a motorcycle trip. We werein a sidecar. And we went to Mount Everest base
camp. So, on the China side, on the north face.And we went up, right up to the base camp. And we
(15:28):
wake up first thing in the morning, and the cloudspart, and you see the top of Everest, with the sun
coming through, it was really quite spectacular.OF: Wow. And you mentioned your wife, so I should
probably say right now that it's thanks to yourwife that I know you. So a big shout out to Lisa,
an amazing photographer here in Shanghai. Nextquestion, if you left China, what would you miss
(15:53):
the most, and what would you missed the least?SB: What I would miss the most is just the pace
of change. There's an addictive energy that youget from things continuously changing. So you
might see little things that change elsewhere, butnowhere else where you have speed and scale that
combine (16:11):
wow. So that is something I’m definitely going to miss. What I won't miss is the pollution
aspect. I know the government is making a hugeeffort on this part. I really think that it's
all of our responsibility to do that.OF: Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?SB: Oh, well, I would say if ever I'm at
(16:33):
a point where it doesn't surprise me, then I'd beshocked. I think every time you see things… again,
it relates to the pace of change, and how thingschange so fast, how people adopt the change. Just,
you always see these changes. I think forme, this is… Every time when you look on
the streets, I'm surprised by something.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
(16:55):
to eat, to drink, or just to hang out?SB: So there are some downsides to the
pace of change that happens. So I would say alot of the favourite places that I had no longer
exist - my favourite 包子 [bāozi] shop, my favourite小笼包 [xiǎolóngbāo] shop, some older streets that
I would love to walk in, that really felt likeyou're in older China - unfortunately, those don’t
(17:18):
really exist anymore in Shanghai. I used to do…when people came to Shanghai for the first time,
I used to take my sidecar and go out to thecountryside, where you see farmers and everything,
and then take them down to the Bund. Andyou saw that all within one day. And so,
it was the complete contrast of that. So that'sa that's a little bit… But then on the flipside,
(17:41):
you always have new fantastic places. Probably thenew restaurant that I like is Hiya in the Edition
Hotel. Because, what I like about it, so food'svery good there, the quality's there, but the
view… So they have a bar upstairs, and you havea rooftop. And of course, Shanghai has lots of
rooftop bars. But what was interesting with thisone, it's a different view, at least from what I
(18:04):
had seen before, because you're further back. Andyou have a different perspective on the city, that
I had never seen before, even though I've seen ita million times. And honestly, I think Shanghai is
the most beautiful city at night in the world.OF: What is the best or worst purchase
that you've made in China?SB: Probably the worst purchase
I made is, you know, because Chinayou can get some custom made things,
(18:26):
right? Relatively inexpensive. And I got a pairof custom made shoes. And it was like a cartoon,
they were more than four or five sizes toosmall. There was literally, I could not
even put half my foot in. And we had argumentsthat they made them, and I had to pay for them,
and they were fine. And it was like, “Fine forwhom??” because, it's like, it actually has to
(18:51):
be able to fit on my foot.OF: Next question,
what is your favourite WeChat sticker?SB: So for WeChat stickers, for me - probably
like many people - you’re always “Look what's themost current one? I got to have that one, that's
really good”. But I find, particularly in themore cartoonish ones, they're great but they're
only great for a few weeks. And then there's onethat I really like it's a dog, a pug, just walking
(19:14):
and then looks straight in the camera, and it'smore of that surprise, like you're really - “Huh?
What's happening?” - which is more of your dailylife in Shanghai, so that's why it relates.
OF (19:24):
What is your go-to song to sing in KTV? SB
I would not be working in Research and Innovation,I would be a lounge singer, because that is
my desire in life. But sometimes you're givengifts, and that is not a gift at all that I have,
(19:46):
in any way shape or form. That said, if therewas one song… An older one, 小苹果 [Xiǎo Píngguǒ].
Oh SB
It's a few years old. It was a dance song here.OF: And it’s easy, like, can I learn that one?
SB (20:01):
Yes. And well, you have to see the video as well.
OF (20:04):
And finally, what other China-related media, or just
general sources of information do you rely on?SB: I'm a huge fan, for years, of WeChat. So
as a one-stop shop, it's fantastic to be ableto go there. Then, more for work-related use,
I guess now it's called TikTok. That'sa really interesting media. We see it,
(20:25):
for example, in our business in makeup.These girls didn't know how to use makeup,
they couldn't go to their mother. Now the amountof tutorials to be able to do that, to see how
to apply eyeshadow, things like this, was reallyquite different. And then for English language,
I guess it's called ‘Shine’ now, Shanghai Daily.OF: Great. I must say, you've put it in my head
now - the piece you said about how women herein China are more sensitive to the very fine
(20:48):
lines - I feel like now I'm going to be lookingreally closely at Chinese women. Oh, dear. So
if you see me in public coming very close to aChinese woman’s face, this is all Sanford’s fault.
SB (20:58):
You can provide us new insights. OF
before you leave, the last thing I ask all myguests is, for the next season of Mosaic of China,
I would like to interview someone who yourecommend. So out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview next?SB: So I have a fascinating person, a colleague
(21:19):
of mine, Stéphane Wilmet. He's been in Chinafor a very long time. And his current role
is super interesting because he is our ChiefConsumer Officer in L'Oréal China. So he is the
one with his fingers on the pulse of what'sreally happening with the Chinese consumer,
what are the shifts that are happening withthat. And his long history here gives him the
(21:43):
right perspective to be able to offerthat. So really a fascinating person,
I think you’ll enjoy talking with him.OF: Great, I can't wait. Thank
you so much again, Sanford.SB: You’re welcome, it’s been a pleasure.
[Outro]OF: Well,
here's at least one positive story to come outof the virus outbreak: I have not in fact, been
pressing up against Chinese women's faces. So yousee, every cloud has a silver restraining order.
(22:06):
Thanks again to Sanford for the chat. Ididn't plan on talking about prostitutes to
a microbiologist. But that fascinating connectionwas with Maple Zuo the comedian from Episode 2,
so please do check that out. Sanford alsomentioned TikTok just there. That also came
up in Episode 21, with the broadcaster Yang Yi.And I've posted a lot of images on social media
(22:29):
that you can see on Instagram and Facebooksearch under @mosaicofchina there. Or you
can join the community on WeChat. Just add me onID: mosaicofchina and I'll add you to the group. I
was just taking a look at this actually, and lastweek, I added the 200th new person who came into
the community this way. So thanks to all of youthere. Many people who were there came through my
(22:50):
own personal networks, so I'm really grateful tothose people who I didn't know before. This week's
images include Sanford with his object, the setof wells of artificial skin; there is his sticker,
the surprised pug; there are some photos at MountEverest base camp with his wife Lisa; and a whole
bunch of other goodies. Mosaic of China is meOscar Fuchs, artwork by Danny Newell, and extra
(23:13):
support from Milo de Prieto and Alston Gong. Joinus next week for the last episode of the series.
[Trailer]SB: Literally,
(00:03):
I could not even put half my foot in. And we hadarguments that they were fine. And it was like,
“Fine for whom?!” because, it's like, itactually has to be able to fit on my foot.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making their markin China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs. So today is
(00:24):
the penultimate episode of the series, Episode 29.I have some good news about what's coming next,
which I will be saying more about inthe next episode. In the meantime,
let me quickly address a question that I receivedonline. It was about the risks of a second wave
of the Coronavirus here in China. The shortanswer is that we simply don't know right now,
‘now' being April 7 2020. I wouldhate to say that the risks are low,
(00:49):
and then for things to change. But here iswhat they're doing about it in Shanghai,
at least. At the airport, they're testing everypassenger who arrives on international flights.
And they monitor their quarantine with littlesensors that they put on your doors. These
sensors go off if you open your door morethan twice a day for two minutes each time,
allowing you to do things like take deliveries,or throw out the rubbish. And for the rest of us
(01:12):
who have been here the whole time, if you leaveShanghai even just to neighbouring provinces,
when you come back you need to go through the 14days of quarantine again. So those are the rules
that are giving us a little bit of comfort thatthere won't be a second wave. Who knows how long
these rules will last, that’s the big questionfor me right now, because I'm guessing that if
other countries don’t put similar things intoplace, then they could be around for a long time.
(01:36):
My guest today is actually a friend of mine, it’sSanford Brown, who at the time of recording was
the VP of Research and Innovation at L'OréalChina. He has since been promoted to the SVP
position covering all of Asia Pacific, and hasrelocated to Tokyo, so I was lucky to grab him
before he left. I'm also very grateful becauseas a microbiologist*, Sanford represents the one
(01:58):
scientist that I managed to squeeze into Season1 of the series. And he talks in a way that
makes something quite complicated, incrediblyeasy for the likes of you and I to digest.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for
coming in today, Sanford.SB: Thanks.
OF (02:13):
So I asked everyone here to bring in an object that in some way represents what they're doing
here in China. So what have you brought today?SB: So, it's artificial skin. And what we've
done is taken a cell of Chinese skin, and thengrown skin, much like you've heard for grafting,
where people have burns. It’s the same technologythat we're using to really recreate a three
(02:35):
dimensional skin. What's different about thisis, we have to make sure that every single one
is exactly the same. And the purpose of this… sothis is a 10 year effort, and it's building off
of work that we've done in the past in France. Andwhat we use it first and foremost is for safety.
As L'Oréal was founded by a chemist over 100 yearsago, creating the first hair colour that was safe,
(02:59):
safety has been a non-negotiable for the companyever since. So we take the raw materials in the
products that we're using, and we test them here,on this artificial skin, to ensure that there's
no adverse reactions. That's first and foremost.And now we've taken it one step further with the
Chinese skin, and have been able to also testit for efficacy. So for example, we were able
(03:23):
to see how whitening products work in termsof melanocytes, same thing in terms of ageing,
so we use that also for performance. So safetyand efficacy. And to avoid animal testing. So we
haven't done any animal testing in the company for30 years. So we've commercialised this EpiSkinTM,
and now we make it available to researchuniversities, government agencies - that we've
(03:49):
actually helped train to be able to run this typeof testing - and even offer it to our competition.
Wow, that's fascinating. I will definitely post a photo of that artificial skin on social
media, it probably is not what people expectto see, actually. It’s quite interesting, these
12 wells. And what else do you do in the lab?SB: In China, we really cover from fundamental
(04:12):
upstream research - trying to create newmolecules, or partnering with other startups - all
the way through down to creating the finishedproducts - for skin, for makeup, and for hair - to
really meet the needs of the Chinese consumer.OF: At what stage in the process, then,
do you use the end user, the consumer?SB: So we would begin very early on in
(04:36):
understanding the raw material, forexample, that we may be looking at,
and seeing how it performs at a molecularlevel. And we have special microscopes that
actually give us almost an X-ray effectthat we can see how it penetrates in three
dimensions for performance. And then whenwe have this type of level of performance,
we then start bringing in consumers. So we canbring 100-200 consumers a day into our facility,
(05:02):
and we help co-create the innovations with them.What's really key to success is rapid iteration.
So test, fail, learn, test, fail, learn, beingable to do that multiple times, and really doing
that holistically. So you bring in all aspectsof the product - the performance characteristics,
that texture, the fragrance, the packaging- much more holistically. And that allows
(05:26):
us to move much faster into the marketplace.OF: So which is the actual starting point?
Is the starting point the technologythat is available to you, or is the
starting point what you hear the consumer needs?SB: Really, it's the intersection of the two,
it can happen both ways, what we call ‘technicalpush’ or ‘consumer pull’. But usually,
a real innovation or invention happens at theintersection between what is more cutting edge of
(05:51):
what's technically possible, and where consumers’aspirations - where they want to go - meet.
And that's why we have upstream scientists andexperts that really are the best in their field,
and we also have consumer scientists who work interms of both evaluation and really understanding
the trends of what's coming next.OF: I like that phrase “Consumer
(06:12):
Pull and Technical Push”, there mustbe, sometimes, a gap between the two,
like, have you had an examples of where you'vebeen trying to push something technologically,
but the consumers just didn’t want it?SB: Yes, that that definitely happens.
And then, that's why it's really important tounderstand what is it that the consumer wants,
and what is it that they're really evaluatingfor. You might have technology that can work,
(06:35):
but how you apply it on the facedoesn't feel like it's penetrating,
doesn't give a nice glow to the skin, then itjust doesn't work. So we have to stop there.
And because the consumers in the end arevery smart. And if you just say something
and the product doesn't deliver it, it's notgoing to work. Particularly in today's world,
where you have so much e-commerce, andreviews, and key opinion leaders. It's
(06:57):
really critical that we get that right.OF: Well, you mentioned the consumer there.
So let's talk about the consumer,specifically here in China. Have
you noticed anything unique about this market?SB: Most definitely. So I think it's really been
transformative, and it continues to transformat an amazing rate. So if I just go back, say,
five years ago, at that point in skincare, mostof the skincare products were really very much a
(07:24):
Western product with a little bit of adaptation.And so, they believed that those Western products
were good quality. Maybe they didn't workexactly the way I wanted them to, but they
were still good quality. Makeup was not used much,hair colour was just covering grey, mostly men,
there wasn't too much of this… Today, a completelydifferent scenario. The Chinese consumer for skin
(07:46):
is super demanding. So in the context, you mightlook, as a Caucasian, at Chinese and Asians’ skin
for ageing and say “Ah, you know, they don'tseem to age, you know, at the same pace”.
Right, right. SB
They don't have the deep-set wrinkles that tendto happen in terms of Caucasians. But at the same
(08:07):
time what we find is, the consumer - the Chineseconsumer - she’s super sensitive. She really looks
around her eyes, around the forehead, around themouth, and those little fine lines, she notices,
and she's very, very conscious of. And so thismakes her super demanding. Same with hair colour,
because it's completely different when you'redoing it on dark hair. It's much harder. And
(08:31):
Chinese hair is actually the most susceptible todamage. It has the highest cuticle angles - so,
cuticle is where the hairs go… scales, likeone on top of the other - it’s naturally
at a higher angle, which means damage canhappen very easily. So we have to make sure,
not only do you have really the strong coloureffect, but at the same time have no damage at
(08:52):
all to the hair. So that caring aspect, andperformance, are trade offs. So these things
are always changing and evolving. And this is howwe've created new products. And these new products
have started to go into the West as well. They cantranslate from China successfully into the world,
which was not the case at all five years ago.OF: You know, as we're talking, it's reminding
(09:15):
me of an interview I did with Maple ZUO,and she grew up in Inner Mongolia. And I
do remember distinctly, she said the firsttime she saw anyone with makeup was actually
when she saw a prostitute with red lipstick.I wonder, like, what has the history been in
the last generation about skincare and makeup.SB: Well I have a similar experience from when I
was travelling back as a student around China in1988. The first time I saw anyone with lipstick
(09:41):
was actually in Nanjing train station. And theywere prostitutes, and there were people who were
asking me to pay money to sit there, otherwiseI would be robbed. So it was the only experience
like that, so I can relate. But today it'scompletely different. It's very traditional, in
the world, that you would see - if you're a younggirl - you’d see your mother or your older sister
(10:03):
putting on makeup, and you’d try that as a kid.And so then you get to being a pre-teen, and you
start to do that. This generation never had that,their mother didn't really - except for Chinese
New Year or a wedding - would not really wearmakeup on a regular basis. So she's had to learn
all of these things herself. And what we find is,actually she's super demanding. And as a single
child with two working parents, and sometimeseven four sets of grandparents, they have cash.
(10:27):
So they go in, they will buy their first lipstick- it would often be a luxury lipstick - and then
that makes them set a very high standard, fromthe beginning, of what they expect in terms of
performance, in terms of perceived value.OF: And we've been saying ‘China’ sometimes
in the same breath as ‘Asia’, butwhat are the differences between,
let's say, the Chinese consumer andthe other consumers here in North Asia,
(10:50):
let's say the Koreans, the Japanese.SB: So there are some similarities,
and there are some differences. So for example,even things like whitening: so Japanese tend
to want more of an almost porcelain white, whereChinese want to have more of a rosy glow. Chinese
are also much more pragmatic. Japanese tend tohave - depending on which segment, if you're
(11:12):
very luxury or hyper luxury - you will have a veryset routine with products, only in there. Chinese
will look at, what is the best product and Iwill mix a luxury product with mass product,
because I want to pick what is the best value.And ‘best value’ means I'm willing to spend if
it really delivers it. If it doesn't, then then Iwon't. So that's also for us to make sure that we
(11:32):
really have what we call ‘hero products’, thatconsumers can really see a difference in these,
and they really make a big performance.OF: What is coming down the pipeline? So if
you can talk in general terms about the futureof what we're seeing in skincare, haircare and
makeup, what trends do you see coming up?SB: So, I think there's a convergence of a
number of different technologies and environmentalfactors that are going to come into play. And
(11:59):
particularly in Asia. You have aspects like moreurbanisation. So we’ve already seen this happen,
huge shifts. In terms of China, now 55, ormore percent of the population living in
urban centres. But that puts pressure on howpeople live, you see more in terms of tensions
with pollution and water scarcity. So thatall is going to affect people's daily life,
(12:21):
and be able to actually alter what are theproducts that they want to get. How do they feel,
more tired for the skin? How UV rays affectskin, and actually the longer-wavelength UVA,
which actually does the damage, and even oncloudy days that can penetrate. We found that
plus pollution actually has a negative synergisticeffect on skin health. So you're going to have
that (12:43):
urbanisation. You’re going to have smart materials
go and attack a specific gene or part of the skin.So it's really quite exciting in terms of what
will happen, and I think what's most definitelygoing to happen is China is going to play an
instrumental role in in that future.OF: Alright, well, now I get it.
(13:05):
Now I can see why you'll say busy.SB: The positive part about that is
there's job security. So it's not something thatyou reach an endpoint, which makes it exciting.
OF (13:17):
Fascinating. Well, thank you. We're gonna move on now to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: So, Question 1, do you
have any favourite word or phrase in Chinese?SB: 千里之行，始於足下 [Qiānlǐ zhī xíng, shǐ yú zúxià],
which roughly translates into (13:32):
‘A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a first step’. And that, to me,
is a very inspiring way to really think about,when you want to do something, and you're not
exactly sure how to do it, begin. And just thatfirst step will have a real big impact. And so,
(13:56):
that's one of the aspects of how I live mylife. And it's also how we've developed the
R&I Centre here in China.OF: Amen. What is your
favourite destination within China?SB: That's a very hard question,
you know. I’m Canadian, and China's is almostthe same size as Canada, it’s a huge country.
I've been to a lot of places, but still onlyjust a few. One, I only went in 1988, so it
(14:21):
may be completely different now. And the contextwas, you know, everything was just, back then,
an assault on my senses. It was not anythingthat I’d seen before, so crowded, bicycles
that went everywhere, the buses had no airconditioning (it was during the summer). And then,
(14:42):
I went to a city called 曲阜 [Qūfù]. And that wasthe birthplace of Confucius. And they had a park
with a graveyard and a restaurant. And what struckme there - and again, it may not be anything like
that today - it was just so quiet. So it was thecontrast, versus everything else. Which is also,
(15:02):
again, one of the themes that I feel all thetime in China, is you see these big contrasts.
And that really stood out. And the second onewas more recently, I went with my wife and a
bunch of friends on a motorcycle trip. We werein a sidecar. And we went to Mount Everest base
camp. So, on the China side, on the north face.And we went up, right up to the base camp. And we
(15:28):
wake up first thing in the morning, and the cloudspart, and you see the top of Everest, with the sun
coming through, it was really quite spectacular.OF: Wow. And you mentioned your wife, so I should
probably say right now that it's thanks to yourwife that I know you. So a big shout out to Lisa,
an amazing photographer here in Shanghai. Nextquestion, if you left China, what would you miss
(15:53):
the most, and what would you missed the least?SB: What I would miss the most is just the pace
of change. There's an addictive energy that youget from things continuously changing. So you
might see little things that change elsewhere, butnowhere else where you have speed and scale that
combine (16:11):
wow. So that is something I’m definitely going to miss. What I won't miss is the pollution
aspect. I know the government is making a hugeeffort on this part. I really think that it's
all of our responsibility to do that.OF: Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?SB: Oh, well, I would say if ever I'm at
(16:33):
a point where it doesn't surprise me, then I'd beshocked. I think every time you see things… again,
it relates to the pace of change, and how thingschange so fast, how people adopt the change. Just,
you always see these changes. I think forme, this is… Every time when you look on
the streets, I'm surprised by something.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
(16:55):
to eat, to drink, or just to hang out?SB: So there are some downsides to the
pace of change that happens. So I would say alot of the favourite places that I had no longer
exist - my favourite 包子 [bāozi] shop, my favourite小笼包 [xiǎolóngbāo] shop, some older streets that
I would love to walk in, that really felt likeyou're in older China - unfortunately, those don’t
(17:18):
really exist anymore in Shanghai. I used to do…when people came to Shanghai for the first time,
I used to take my sidecar and go out to thecountryside, where you see farmers and everything,
and then take them down to the Bund. Andyou saw that all within one day. And so,
it was the complete contrast of that. So that'sa that's a little bit… But then on the flipside,
(17:41):
you always have new fantastic places. Probably thenew restaurant that I like is Hiya in the Edition
Hotel. Because, what I like about it, so food'svery good there, the quality's there, but the
view… So they have a bar upstairs, and you havea rooftop. And of course, Shanghai has lots of
rooftop bars. But what was interesting with thisone, it's a different view, at least from what I
(18:04):
had seen before, because you're further back. Andyou have a different perspective on the city, that
I had never seen before, even though I've seen ita million times. And honestly, I think Shanghai is
the most beautiful city at night in the world.OF: What is the best or worst purchase
that you've made in China?SB: Probably the worst purchase
I made is, you know, because Chinayou can get some custom made things,
(18:26):
right? Relatively inexpensive. And I got a pairof custom made shoes. And it was like a cartoon,
they were more than four or five sizes toosmall. There was literally, I could not
even put half my foot in. And we had argumentsthat they made them, and I had to pay for them,
and they were fine. And it was like, “Fine forwhom??” because, it's like, it actually has to
(18:51):
be able to fit on my foot.OF: Next question,
what is your favourite WeChat sticker?SB: So for WeChat stickers, for me - probably
like many people - you’re always “Look what's themost current one? I got to have that one, that's
really good”. But I find, particularly in themore cartoonish ones, they're great but they're
only great for a few weeks. And then there's onethat I really like it's a dog, a pug, just walking
(19:14):
and then looks straight in the camera, and it'smore of that surprise, like you're really - “Huh?
What's happening?” - which is more of your dailylife in Shanghai, so that's why it relates.
OF (19:24):
What is your go-to song to sing in KTV? SB
I would not be working in Research and Innovation,I would be a lounge singer, because that is
my desire in life. But sometimes you're givengifts, and that is not a gift at all that I have,
(19:46):
in any way shape or form. That said, if therewas one song… An older one, 小苹果 [Xiǎo Píngguǒ].
Oh SB
It's a few years old. It was a dance song here.OF: And it’s easy, like, can I learn that one?
SB (20:01):
Yes. And well, you have to see the video as well.
OF (20:04):
And finally, what other China-related media, or just
general sources of information do you rely on?SB: I'm a huge fan, for years, of WeChat. So
as a one-stop shop, it's fantastic to be ableto go there. Then, more for work-related use,
I guess now it's called TikTok. That'sa really interesting media. We see it,
(20:25):
for example, in our business in makeup.These girls didn't know how to use makeup,
they couldn't go to their mother. Now the amountof tutorials to be able to do that, to see how
to apply eyeshadow, things like this, was reallyquite different. And then for English language,
I guess it's called ‘Shine’ now, Shanghai Daily.OF: Great. I must say, you've put it in my head
now - the piece you said about how women herein China are more sensitive to the very fine
(20:48):
lines - I feel like now I'm going to be lookingreally closely at Chinese women. Oh, dear. So
if you see me in public coming very close to aChinese woman’s face, this is all Sanford’s fault.
SB (20:58):
You can provide us new insights. OF
before you leave, the last thing I ask all myguests is, for the next season of Mosaic of China,
I would like to interview someone who yourecommend. So out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview next?SB: So I have a fascinating person, a colleague
(21:19):
of mine, Stéphane Wilmet. He's been in Chinafor a very long time. And his current role
is super interesting because he is our ChiefConsumer Officer in L'Oréal China. So he is the
one with his fingers on the pulse of what'sreally happening with the Chinese consumer,
what are the shifts that are happening withthat. And his long history here gives him the
(21:43):
right perspective to be able to offerthat. So really a fascinating person,
I think you’ll enjoy talking with him.OF: Great, I can't wait. Thank
you so much again, Sanford.SB: You’re welcome, it’s been a pleasure.
[Outro]OF: Well,
here's at least one positive story to come outof the virus outbreak: I have not in fact, been
pressing up against Chinese women's faces. So yousee, every cloud has a silver restraining order.
(22:06):
Thanks again to Sanford for the chat. Ididn't plan on talking about prostitutes to
a microbiologist. But that fascinating connectionwas with Maple Zuo the comedian from Episode 2,
so please do check that out. Sanford alsomentioned TikTok just there. That also came
up in Episode 21, with the broadcaster Yang Yi.And I've posted a lot of images on social media
(22:29):
that you can see on Instagram and Facebooksearch under @mosaicofchina there. Or you
can join the community on WeChat. Just add me onID: mosaicofchina and I'll add you to the group. I
was just taking a look at this actually, and lastweek, I added the 200th new person who came into
the community this way. So thanks to all of youthere. Many people who were there came through my
(22:50):
own personal networks, so I'm really grateful tothose people who I didn't know before. This week's
images include Sanford with his object, the setof wells of artificial skin; there is his sticker,
the surprised pug; there are some photos at MountEverest base camp with his wife Lisa; and a whole
bunch of other goodies. Mosaic of China is meOscar Fuchs, artwork by Danny Newell, and extra
(23:13):
support from Milo de Prieto and Alston Gong. Joinus next week for the last episode of the series.
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