March 29, 2021 • 37 mins
When you live overseas, in some ways you take a leap into a new identity. You need to figure out how to fit into a new culture, while remaining true to your authentic self. Well, it's exactly the same story when your brand goes overseas. And when introducing your brand overseas, it's important to get the name right. Vladimir Djurovic is an expert in this field, since he and his team at LABBRAND create Chinese names for Western brands. And it's a fascinating process that requires a basket of skills including linguistics, branding, trademarks, consulting, and semiotics. If you want to know why the Chinese for Marvel is 漫威 [Mànwēi], and LinkedIn is 领英 [Lǐngyīng], tune in to hear from the man who helped name them! The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Stephane de Montgros from Season 01 Episode 19. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-19-stephane-de-montgros). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:27 - Part 1 19:32 - Part 2 28:59 - Outro 31:26 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-13-vladimir-djurovic. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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(00:02):
[Trailer]VD: We created the name 漫威 [Mànwēi]
for ‘Marvel’.OF: That was you!
VD (00:05):
Yeah, that was me.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
When you live overseas, in some ways you takea leap into a new identity. You need to figure
out how to fit into a new culture, while remainingtrue to your authentic self. Well, it's exactly
(00:29):
the same story with brands. And the firstthing to get right with brand identity is
getting your name right in the first place.
My guest today, Vladimir Djurovic, is an expertin this field, since one of his specialisations
is in creating Chinese names for Western brands.It goes without saying that this episode will
be of particular interest to all the languagenerds out there. If you are one of these people,
(00:54):
the best accompaniment to today's show wouldmy interview with the literary translator
Gigi Chang from Season 1 Episode 24.
Quickly before we start, in our conversationabout the Chinese version of the brand 'Marvel',
we forgot to mention that the 漫 [Màn] in漫威 [Mànwēi] means 'comics', which you
might otherwise know from the Japanese reading,because it's the same 'Man' as in the Japanese
(01:18):
word ‘マンガ [Manga]’. And also itwas Vladimir's birthday on the 25th, which
was last Thursday, so happy birthday Vladimir.
[Part 1]OF: I’m here with Vladimir Djurovic, you
are the CEO and Founder of LABBRAND.VD: That's correct.
OF (01:35):
What is LABBRAND? VD
‘lab’ ‘brand’. So ‘lab’ is technology,an inventive word. But also in Latin, it means
‘working’ like ‘labour’, you know.It means working on brands. So we do branding,
and we have a story of 15 years now in China.And one of our famous services here is naming
(02:04):
brands looking for a Chinese name.OF: Excellent. Well, we'll go into that in
a minute. But before we do, what is the objectthat you've brought that in some way identifies
what you do here in China?VD: I brought something very slim here. And
maybe you have never seen that before.OF: I have not, what is that?
VD (02:22):
Well, that's something that I kept for 20 years now, because that's something I got
when I was a student in China in 2001. Andthis is called a 饭票 [fànpiào]. So this
one is 0.1 Renminbi - at that time you canprobably buy some rice or something - so that
was basically the money and the currency weused at the canteen in the school. It was
(02:47):
printed and made in 1987.OF: Wow, yeah.
Yeah, so a bit of Chinese history. So I thought this was interesting because it
represents, a little bit, my shift. When Icame to China from France, by the cheapest
flight stopping for hours in Bucharest…OF: Wait, wait, wait, what was that airline
called?VD: It was called TAROM, at that time.
OF (03:07):
Whoa. VD
pay extra fees for my luggage during the stopover.But then, yeah, arriving to China in 2001,
I quit my job in France. I was just startinga career as a banker, all kinds of sophisticated
tools for measuring risk in markets.OF: The ones that eventually brought down
(03:31):
the whole world, right?VD: Exactly. So I was escaping that, actually,
I was just doing an internship. And they reallythought I was crazy to take this plane through
Romania to land into a university, totallyimmersed in a Chinese Master degree programme.
Oh wow. VD
(03:51):
I managed to go through that process. So that'show I landed.
Wow. Well, this is a good juncture for me to actually play you this clip.
[Start of Audio Clip]Stephane de Montgros: I think you should interview
Vladimir Djurovic, he is the founder of agreat brand consulting company called LABBRAND.
And you're gonna have a blast meeting him.He is extremely insightful, and I can't wait
(04:16):
to hear the answers to the questions you'regoing to ask.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was of course, our mutual friend
Stephane from Season 01.VD: We met in Shanghai, actually, during a
study trip for one summer. And we remain friendssince then. Actually I arrived slightly before
him, and he followed me a few years later,I think inspired by all the passion I had
(04:38):
for China.OF: This is what I was gonna say, like, which
one of you came first?VD: Yeah, he was the first on ‘Mosaic’
though, so I think…OF: Ah..! Well, let's fast-forward, away from
the story of your 饭票 [fànpiào], andtalk about today. So tell us about what you're
doing, particularly in the area of ‘naming’,as you said.
VD (04:58):
Well naming, I didn't know it existed. Many people I talk to, they still are surprised
that this exists, but there is a job for namingbrands, or things, or devices, or categories
of products, tag-lines. So there is a lotof verbal creativity involved. And there is
(05:19):
no way to translate, in a unique way, an inventedname like a brand name. So you could have
multiple ways to adapt it, and there is nota total correspondence with the sounds of
French, English - or any other language - withthe sounds you find in the Chinese language.
(05:39):
So there are sounds that are pretty close,some that do not exist. And that actually
creates the opportunity to choose, to pickup a way to be closer, either in sounds, or
even to depart from phonetics and try to giveit just a semantic meaning that will represent
it. So because there is a choice to be made,some companies really find it a headache.
(06:04):
My first employer in China was Galeries Lafayette,so it's a famous French department store,
and they had the question of "What is ourChinese name?” They had one, they were called
老佛爷 [Lǎofóyé], which is the nicknameof 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], it’s…
OF (06:22):
Oh, was it? VD
it literally, it's like ‘old’, ‘Buddha’,and something like ‘爷爷 [yéyé]’,
like ‘grandpa’. So it's a bit odd fora brand that is thinking about attributes
of the ‘Capital of Fashion’ - ‘Capitalede la Mode’ - you know, like something very
fashionable and trendy. But this name wasvery catchy for the Chinese. Everyone that
(06:45):
hears it, they can remember it. The issuewas it was not trademarkable. This legal issue
is pretty common for many, many other brands.Today, when we create a name, you may imagine
that it comes like a stroke of genius, thatyou're thinking, and you will find one name.
Actually it doesn't come at all like that.When you try to use a name that you create,
(07:05):
it has to be registered as a trademark. Andthe trademark system in China is very, very
tricky or demanding, because you need to benot only different from the other trademarks
or the other names, but not easily confusedwith another one. So the usual rule is that,
out of usually three characters that representa Chinese name, that actually two of them
(07:30):
are different from any other trademarks.OF: Any other?
VD (07:34):
In your class. There are 45 classes of products. So in your category, with comparable
goods, you need to find actually quite animportant space between your name and the
other ones. That's the reason why when wecreate names, we have to expect that a lot
of good ideas won't be possible. And that'swhy we need to really look for a lot of names,
(07:57):
and explore ‘edges’, in a way.OF: Right, because when you're starting the
process, you don't know which of those charactersyou're starting with are going to be clashes.
Or do you start with those lists of charactersthat you can’t use?
You can’t, because there are literally 20 million trademarks already registered.
So you can't really think about which oneis available or not. But with experience,
(08:18):
you will know which characters are rare enoughto give you good chances that you won't step
on another brand too close, to keep your distances.And, you know I mentioned the 45 classes,
each product that you have in Class 3 - itsthe class of cosmetics - for example, or Class
25 for fashion, those are very, very fullof brands. So those are like… Finding the
(08:43):
name is like finding those little needlesin a haystack, you know, we create thousands
of names just to be extracting a few. Andthat's part of the process.
OF (08:51):
Wow, well I want to go into more details. But before that, let's jump back into the
past, then. You were working at Galeries Lafayette,you were on this project, you realised “Whoa,
this is a thing”. So how did you go fromthere to having your own company?
VD (09:05):
Yeah, I think when I was working there it was like 2002-2004.
OF (09:08):
Oh right, so this was their branding for when they were just in France.
VD (09:12):
Exactly, as a destination. So when we did that project, we landed on a name that
was very phonetic. So we ended up with 莱法耶特[Láifǎyétè]. The CEO at the time said
“Well, if someone says the name in Chinesein the taxi, the taxi driver has to bring
the customer to our door. So 莱法耶特[Láifǎyétè] it is.” And 莱法耶特
(09:33):
[Láifǎyétè] means like, 莱 [lái] is蓬莱的莱 [‘Pénglái’ de ‘lái’],
it's a dream island kind of thing.OF: Oh that one.
That one, the 来 [lái] with some herb on the top, you know?
OF (09:43):
Yes. VD
Of course, ‘French’, very good.OF: Oh that's too good.
VD (09:47):
Yeah. 耶 [yé] and 特 [tè], 特别的特 [‘tèbié’ de ‘tè’]. So phonetic,
yeah.OF: I like that. OK, so this is where it's
like a big puzzle.VD: Yeah. So I really loved this experience.
Actually, to create this name. I went to lookfor an agency. And I was the client at that
time. And I didn't manage to spot a namingagency in China. And I found it crazy because
you had a lot of 风水 [Fēngshuǐ] mastersthat were doing naming sometimes, but not
(10:12):
in a way that was commercial enough for theneeds of companies to really trust. Not very
easy communication, let's say.OF: Right, because the 风水 [Fēngshuǐ]
masters would do things like count the strokes,right?
Yeah, I don't really understand what they do. But they probably have some good principles.
Yeah, so a 风水 [Fēngshuǐ] master wasnot an option Galeries Lafayette will consider.
(10:32):
And we found a design agency that tried todo it. But then they were presenting the work
more like a creative purely, without necessarilythe interpretation that links with the strategy
of the brand, in a very thorough way. Andwe discovered that actually, if you present
names in Chinese to an owner of a brand, whenthey see a Chinese name, if you don't really
(10:54):
immerse them in the space, it will be almostimpossible for them to jump into one option.
So I discovered that, actually, there wasa bridge to make, and this leap into a new
identity - that never overlaps exactly withthe alphabetic name - is something that needs
a lot of facilitation.OF: And it's such a unique skill, because
(11:17):
you are taking into account the brand values,you’re taking into account the graphic,
and of course the meaning, the sound, everything.There’s such a lot of things that go into
that. How long was it between you doing thisproject at Galeries Lafayette until, then,
you did your own company? Was it like “Oh,wow, this is it”. And then you just quit
and started, or..?VD: This product brought light to something.
(11:37):
“Wow. I mean, this is exactly what I wantto do”. Because it's cultural. It’s with
business, you need to interpret businesses.And then I started really to read about branding,
and to try to understand what's a brand exactly,what's the dimension? Still seeing it a bit
from a scientific mind. So it took me a yearto really switch from that project to selling
(12:00):
my first name for a client. I borrowed a bitof money from a friend - actually €4,000,
not a lot, just a small help - and basicallyI started, in 2005, LABBRAND.
OF (12:13):
Tell me then, if you can think of an example of one of the famous brands that you would
have worked with that we all would know. Walkus through the process.
VD (12:21):
Yeah, the story behind Marvel, because we created the name 漫威 [Mànwēi] for
‘Marvel’.OF: That was you!
Yeah, that was me. And I still remember a few other alternatives. I remember something
like 漫侠 [Mànxiá], where 侠 [xiá] ismore like a ‘fighter’, like the ‘hero’,
in that sense. Whereas, like, 漫威 [Mànwēi]is even closer, phonetically, to Marvel.
OF (12:42):
Yes. VD
more abstract, because 威 [wēi] is like‘power’. Of course, you have the power
of the hero, but it could be also the powerof the manga, of the comics. So ‘comics’
and ‘power’. And it's one brand that hashad tremendous success.
Yeah. VD
And then another one that I really love is‘LinkedIn’, 领英 [Lǐngyīng] in Chinese,
(13:04):
which is the ‘Leading Hero’.OF: Oh.
VD (13:06):
Yeah, and we had a pretty strong candidate that was closer to ‘LinkedIn’, I will
tell you in Chinese, it’s ‘联应 [Liányīng]’,联 [lián] means…
OF (13:16):
Connection? VD
[‘yīnggāi’ de ‘yīng’], it meanslike ‘must’
Or ‘should’. VD
so it's really like ‘LinkedIn’ in ‘linked’and ‘you have to be linked’.
Interesting. So it was that or ‘Leading Hero’?
VD (13:30):
Or ‘Leading Hero’. And you can easily get that ‘Leading Hero’ is much more aspirational.
And there is a dimension of an élite.OF: Right.
And it's not egalitarian like ‘LinkedIn’. if you hear the English name, or alphabetic
name, it looks much more like a community,and it's just about being connected. But in
(13:53):
China, we did the research in Greater China,and we found out that this one was the one
that really had a lot of resonance with thetarget. So we went for this recommendation.
I think it's also interesting because I learn,still, interpretations of the name, a lot
of positive echo, and it's still like… there'sa lot of fans about it. OF: And so, is
(14:18):
there a word for this science?VD: It could be called ‘semiotics’, the
science of the production of meaning. Andrecently, I was reading a book from Barthes,
the famous French semiotician, he's interpretingthe different styles of writing of French
famous writers, one of them being Proust,for example. Actually Proust wanted to become
(14:38):
a writer, but he was really stuck for manyyears before he was able to write his book.
And what unlocked his ability to write, wasto choose invented names for the places in
the book. Until he set up the names, he wasstuck in his creative process. It resonated
(14:59):
with me when I read that, because I felt likewhen we choose names for companies in China,
it's actually also unlocking this capabilityto perform. So… yeah.
OF (15:08):
I knew that if I invited a French person into this podcast studio, at one point we'd
have to talk about philosophy.VD: Yeah, it looks like you need a lot of
knowledge and science. Actually, the codes…We as humans, we are processing a lot of codes
to make sense of the world all the time.OF: Right.
VD (15:28):
So it's really our embedded software for making sense of the world. What is interesting,
when you use semiotics you become more consciousabout it, and you can help a company to use
them for the purpose of bringing a specificmeaning. It's very hard to carve out a meaning
in the world right now. And that's what brandsare about. So that's a challenge, for example,
(15:49):
for companies to think about that. So it'sbroader than the name, of course, but it can
go into design into messaging, into many ways.OF: This was the thing that, you know, first
drew you to this whole business. How muchof your current business is still related
to this naming side.VD: Roughly, if we talk about numbers, it’s
a smaller part now. I mean, it's still somethingwe are known for, but I would say it's likely,
(16:15):
like, 20%. A lot of the work is about brandpositioning, consumer insights, digital experience,
cultural transformation, a variety of things.And yeah, we're still very proud of doing
naming. It’s actually still for me, it'sstill an area that I feel so passionate about.
So it's my favourite part. But our team isdoing a variety of things now.
OF (16:37):
I of course love the naming part, too. VD
But is there something that you're particularly proud of that you're doing in the new realm?
VD (16:46):
Facilitating the communication within teams. Because what I've observed is a lot
of drop of value between what we get in theinsight report, and when the creatives start
to work. It's almost like everyone has a differentinterpretation. Getting them to understand
the chain, having a common language, and gettingthe people in a room to exchange this information,
(17:09):
and work on it together.OF: Yes. Well, I think anyone from any business
can listen to that and know that they havesimilar silos in their organisations. Just
the different cultures between, let's say,a research department versus marketing, versus
sales, versus operations, versus HR. Like,they all would come to the same thing with
a different angle. And I think you as a CEO,it is your responsibility to think about that,
and to work out how you get these people coalescedtogether.
(17:31):
Absolutely. And, you know, after 15 years of working on brands and working like an agent,
that's how we redefined, a little bit, whatbranding is. Because I think if we consider
branding just being creating a name, a logo,fine, we are experts in doing this. But actually,
if you don't help also the company to alsomanage the culture, a lot of what we provide
(17:55):
is lost.OF: Yeah.
Yeah. OF
in with the name. Then you can do work onthe branding. And then you can do work on
a culture transformation.VD: Exactly.
OF (18:05):
I see. So we're coming to the end of Part 1, I'm just.. You know, normally at this point,
I've talked to somebody for this length oftime, and I can kind of get a good sense of
who you are. For you, the way that I describeyou is that you're this scientist with a little
wink, you're a scientist with a smile. HaveI got that right? How would you describe your
(18:26):
personality?VD: I think, very optimistic. And I found
joy in the curiosity of things. So I feellike China was a very nice playground for
that. I started without too much experience.So in a way, I was lucky not to know what’s
to be perfect. And to be constantly in a fieldwhere I was progressing, but I didn't know
(18:48):
how far was the goal that I should reach.So not knowing that was actually quite helpful.
I actually have one favourite T-shirt thatI could have brought, it's called “imperfect”.
And it can be read like “I’m perfect”.OF: Ah.
VD (19:03):
So I think that's a very interesting combination. Because I think as long as you don't necessarily
picture and get obsessed by not failing, ornot looking down when you have vertigo, you're
still in a good place. So that's why I actuallyam so, maybe, with a smile, because I feel
(19:24):
very happy and privileged being there.OF: Nice. Well, we'll move on to Part 2.
Let's go.
[Part 2]OF: OK, on to Part 2. I ask the same 10 questions
to everyone on the show. And so we will startwith Question 1. What is your favourite China-related
fact.VD: I was reopening 孫子 [Sūnzǐ]’s Art
(19:47):
of War. It's a teaching material for kingsand lords. And it's 2,500 years ago. And when
I was reading it, I was still getting a lotof ideas that are so contemporary. And one
of the principles was the 道 [dào] for example: the ethics, the road, the purpose. I was quite (20:05):
undefined
happy to see the 孫子 [Sūnzǐ] preceptsof the best way to win a war and to build
your team is to work on your 道 [dào], whichis I think, part of what a brand does. So
I was like “Hmm, not too bad”. So thisfact of how long ago that was, and how much
(20:30):
it applies to today's world. And it relates,in a way, to what I do. So I felt like this
fact is something that's very memorable forme.
OF (20:37):
Nice. And I like it how you can distil 3,000 years of Daoism into branding.
VD (20:42):
Of course. OF
with Season 01, because Maple Zuo who wasEpisode Two of last season, she also was talking
about 道 [dào] in this question.VD: Oh interesting.
OF (20:54):
So that’s a nice connection. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
VD (20:58):
The one I like is a story I heard from my teacher, when I was in my second year of
Chinese learning. It's a story about a character是 [shì], to be.
OF (21:10):
OK. VD
how do you create an ideogram about that.And the interesting story is that if you look
at it, you have 人 [rén] on the bottom,that is a person. And somehow he seems to
be walking into something that is an obstacle.And then there is a horizontal bar, and above
(21:35):
that you have the sun. So the story couldbe like “You are, when you meet a problem,
and when you faced a difficulty, and whenyou start to see the light. And I like the
story, this 是 [shì] character.OF: Right, it’s almost like Descartes, right?
I think therefore I am I.VD: Exactly.
I run into obstacles under the sun, therefore I am
VD (21:55):
I think resonance with Descartes was probably part of why I was so impressed by that story,
yeah.OF: There you go. I actually met you on your
level, I can't believe it. I don't care aboutpeople who actually know the real answer,
I’m sticking with yours.VD: Thank you.
OF (22:09):
What is your favourite destination within China?
VD (22:13):
It's actually Inner Mongolia. I have the occasion to go there for run about every year
in a marathon in the grassland.OF: Oh I know it.
Yeah. In a small place called 西乌旗 [Xīwūqí]. You can easily get out of it,
run out of it, and get into running in thosegreen hills. It's beautiful. There's occasion
(22:35):
to see double, triple rainbows and to reconnectwith the elements. So definitely one of the
places I like in China.OF: Yeah, I really want to go there. But things
are such long distances that you have to reallyplan a whole week to really see most of what
you want to see, right?VD: Yeah, I go there obviously with a goal
(22:56):
to run a race and come back, spend some timethere, so not dwelling a week and travelling
around. But I like the focus, I like the simplicityof it. I like to walk on the street, there
are still some old cars because it's closerto Russia, some Волга [Volga] brand cars.
So there's a bit of exoticism, but I'd liketo run out of the city in the hills.
OF (23:18):
Nice, yeah. I love the way French people say ‘focus’. I love that. If you left
China, what would you miss the most, and whatwould you miss the least?
VD (23:29):
The spices of China, literally and in a metaphorical way, I think there is so much
flavour, so many things to experiment. Ofcourse the scale, also, of things, which means
you can see things that you can't imaginein other places. And I will say the same thing
(23:49):
that I won't miss is the scale. If one dayI leave China it will be because I want to
go into a smaller place, to live in a moresimple way.
OF (24:00):
Right, yeah. OK, next question. Is there anything that still surprises you about life
in China?VD: This week, I was driving back from a meeting
in 浦东 [Pǔdōng] and it got me to oneof the avenues in the north of Shanghai like
towards door 常熟路 [Chángshúlù], 天目路[Tiānmùlù]. And I saw that the whole avenue
for kilometres was under reconstruction. Isaw China like that 20 years ago, I saw also
(24:27):
this 10 years ago, but in Shanghai. I meanthis year, I still see a lot of construction.
It keeps surprising me to see that that levelof undertaking.
Yeah. Where is your favourite place to go out to eat or drink or hang out?
VD (24:41):
Well I'd love to travel in time when Face Bar was there. That was a place in 瑞亭路
[Ruìtínglù] / 茂名路 [Màomíng lù].It used to be a red brick house with wonderful
cocktails. Currently, I mean, I think I reallyenjoy something that is really close to my
place, I go to a small Japanese restaurantcalled Xime, an interesting Mexican dish interpretation
(25:04):
by a Japanese chef and stuff, and it's quitea small place. So see you there.
OF (25:09):
OK. VD
Yeah. What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
VD (25:15):
One surprisingly good purchase was chairs I bought at IKEA. I bought them 15 years ago
for my office, and I keep getting customersthat ask me where I bought it. They think
it’s super designed and stuff, and it'sjust very modern.
OF (25:33):
Mmm. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? VD
to be inauthentic and try to find one. ButI use, a lot, the emoticons. So I don't use
stickers, but I use emoticons. And my favouriteone is the determined one with the bandana.
It looks very much like me running, it representsme. So I didn't check that box, but I hope
(26:00):
you will give me a pass.OF: Well, I would ordinarily just chuck you
out. But we're almost at the end of the interview.VD: So.
So what can I do? I actually like this one, too. This is a particular WeChat emoticon.
There isn't something which is in the usualemoji which comes close to this one, right?
VD (26:16):
It's true. I never realised that. OF
can still use that.VD: Thank you.
OF (26:24):
That’s just an exception. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV.
VD (26:29):
So people that know me will know that the thing I fear most is to go to KTV. It
has to be a client asking me, or I need tobe super drunk to be able to accept the invitation.
I was actually, I think, terrorised becauseone of my first trip at my first internship
in China, we happened to sing in the lobbyof a hotel.
OF (26:51):
Oh! VD
around the whole building.OF: What? What kind of terrible hotel was
this?VD: It was a building, it was a hotel in 沈阳
[Shěnyáng], 1999 or 2000. So it was a longtime.
Yeah. VD
go for 任賢齊 [Rèn Xiánqí], who is aChinese pop singer from 20 years ago. He sings
(27:12):
very simple songs like 对面的女孩看过来[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kànguòlái], this
type of thing, very light-hearted. And I thinkthat, I can do.
Vladimir, it's the same song that Stephane chose.
VD (27:25):
No way. But there's one reason for that, it’s that we had the same teacher in Chinese,
and probably we learnt it at that time. Imust say there is a reason.
OF (27:37):
Yes. Well, since knowing it from Stephane, I've learned that song. It's super easy.
VD (27:43):
That's why, I mean, that's the only one I could pretend to sing. So I keep it.
OF (27:48):
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?VD: I get curated content twice a week, at
the occasion of my Chinese class. Becausemy Chinese teacher will pick up the curated
content from the news. And we will have areview of very good content. So I'm learning
(28:11):
language, but actually, I'm learning a wholestory of topics. And I learned things that
I've never read in the media usually.OF: That's excellent. Well, thank you so much
for that, Vladimir. And finally, the lastthing before you leave, who would you recommend
that I interview in the next season of Mosaicof China?
VD (28:29):
Bertrand Cristeau. He has arrived in China around 20 years before me. Most interestingly,
he has recently opened a vineyard…OF: Oh, a vineyard.
A vineyard. A vineyard in 云南 [Yúnnán]. And that’s, for sure, one that I will listen
to next season. So I'm really looking forwardto hear Bertrand next year.
OF (28:55):
Thanks so much Vladimir. VD
[Outro]OF: I don't have favourites in this podcast,
but I'll always be a fan of anyone who inhabitsthat space between languages, where you have
sounds and meanings on one side that simplydo not correspond with the other. It reminds
me of the episode with Srinivas Yanamandrafrom Season 01 Episode 15, who philosophised
(29:21):
that saying his name in Chinese was aboutas futile as trying to say his name in Mathematics.
Srini and Vladimir, if you're both listening,you need to get together.
If you're a fan of playing around with Mandarin,I want to recommend you listen to the Mandarin
Slang Guide podcast with Josh Ogden-Davis.He has nothing to do with this show, I just
(29:43):
like him as a person and like what he does.So go check it out. And please also check
out the images from today's episode on thenew Instagram account for the show on the
handle @mosaicofchina_, I rebuilt it fromscratch after the old ones got taken down.
It's got a whole new look, and it has zerofollowers, so it's tremendously exclusive
(30:04):
right now. And speaking of exclusive, if youwant to hear some more from Vladimir, including
the story behind how he came up with the Chinesename for TripAdvisor, please subscribe to
the PREMIUM version of the show on https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina.Here are a few clips from today's episode…
[Clip 1]VD: There is another big issue when you choose
(30:26):
a name. It’s the different dialects in China.OF: Oh.
[Clip 2]VD: So basically people could imagine that
the roof was falling on their head.[Clip 3]
VD (30:33):
We have more than a dozen namers. We're probably the biggest naming team in the world,
actually.[Clip 4]
’The eagle with the cat's head’, 猫 [māo] 头 [tóu] 鹰 [yīng].
OF (30:43):
Ah. VD
[Clip 5]VD: Twenty people that speak Chinese with
a different background, they will perceivethe name with twenty different perceptions.
[Clip 6]VD: There might be some job openings. So…
No, I'm unemployable at this point. [End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for today. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny
(31:04):
Newell. After the credits, today’s catch-upchat is with the person who referred Vladimir,
Stephane de Montgros from Season 01 Episode19. So stick around for that, and we’ll
be back next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Thank you for coming, Stephane.
SDM (31:29):
Good afternoon. Great to see you again Oscar.
OF (31:31):
Yes, we recorded our interview in late 2019. And then we released it just before
the Chinese New Year. We were talking about“You know what, 2020 will be a better year
for hotels, because it had been a little bitflat in 2019”. And that was literally the
week before COVID struck.SDM: Correct. It's been a very, very intense
(31:54):
year. So we are in the event industry, right.So our job is to get people together. The
most ironic thing is that the Q1 we preparedfor 2020 was the best Q1 ever in the history
of the company. I've been here for 20 years,the company is 13 years old. And then obviously,
(32:15):
January 23, they had to shut down 武汉 [Wǔhàn]and 湖北 [Húběi]. So I left on that same
day for a Chinese New Year break, and I wentto my Bangkok office, because I wanted to
keep working while China was getting somerest. It was supposed to be a 10 days break
from China, it ended up being two months.And from very, very, very early, I understood,
(32:36):
we were in big trouble. At some point I justasked myself “OK, like, should I just give
up?”OF: Right.
SDM (32:42):
“Like, should we should we just call it a day?" The beautiful thing is, after I
was asking myself this this question, theanswer is “Damn, I love my job. So I will
do everything I can to make it work”. Soit's all about the domestic demand. And it's
very interesting, because a lot of the wealthierChinese people that were used to spending
(33:04):
some of their money outside of China travelling,buying luxury goods, now have no options but
to spend that same money within the country.And that's been supporting a lot of the luxury
brands, luxury hotels, that we are workingwith. So it's not all rosy. Not everyone was
able to keep the same income. Some peopleare still working on a four days a week basis
(33:29):
with some salary cuts. But overall, the economyis healthy. And most of the brands we are
working with are doing very, very well, andspending more in developing the demand and
the growth for for 2021.OF: Well what it does is, I think it does
give hope to people who are listening - perhapsnot in China - the rebound, when it happens,
(33:52):
it happens big. And people who've been stuckindoors, people who haven't travelled, they
all suddenly will travel. And it'll be a hugebounce, right?
Yes, I completely agree with you. The hope is there. And the Chinese market is living
proof that when you give them the opportunityto spend money and travel, they will do so.
So very hopeful for the future of tourismand travel in general.
OF (34:17):
Well, the one thing that I took into account from our last chat was your recommendation
that I run by the river, because I was makingexcuses that I am not doing enough running.
Well, I didn't do it. I'm still not running,because I just can't be bothered to jump on
the subway and go two stops. I mean, that'sjust how my mind works. If there's any obstacle,
(34:40):
I'm not going to do it. But what I did do,so when I have a meeting, I try and make sure
that I build enough time into my schedulethat I can walk there. So now I walk to meetings,
I walk back.SDM: Good.
So I'm doing something for my health, but I am still not running.
SDM (34:54):
But I think it's exactly the same spirit. Running, walking, is about giving your brain
the space to process. I can tell you, runningsaved my year again, it was so hard, there
was so much to process, making the right decisionsat the right time, not wasting time in taking
(35:15):
the hard decisions that you have to take sometimes.And running was, more than ever, my way to
process this amount of information we weregetting, and trying to make sense of “OK,
what is the best way to move forward?” SoI invite you again - Oscar you can do this
- by the third time we sit down together,you'll be running a marathon.
OF (35:33):
I mean, I've done them in the past, that’s the problem. I just, for some reason, can't
bring myself to go back. I still get whatyou're doing. I still have ideas, they're
just at a slower pace. I'm not running anywherefast.
SDM (35:47):
As long as it works for you, that’s all that matters.
OF (35:50):
Thank you. We are going to release this episode alongside the person who you referred
for Season 02. So that was Vladimir, haveyou been in touch with Vladimir?
SDM (36:00):
More than ever. One of the benefits of being somehow stuck in one city is that you
have a lot more time to actually develop relationshipsand friendships with the people around you.
This year, we've been actually able to spendweekly dinners together, usually on Wednesday
nights. It's been absolutely beautiful tobe able to exchange with people that were
(36:24):
going through the same kind of challenges.So we are closer than we've ever been. And
Vladimir is a friend of 20 years, and 2020brought us back together more than we've ever
been.OF: Stephane, thank you so much.
Fantastic. Thank you for having me again.
[Trailer]VD: We created the name 漫威 [Mànwēi]
for ‘Marvel’.OF: That was you!
VD (00:05):
Yeah, that was me.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
When you live overseas, in some ways you takea leap into a new identity. You need to figure
out how to fit into a new culture, while remainingtrue to your authentic self. Well, it's exactly
(00:29):
the same story with brands. And the firstthing to get right with brand identity is
getting your name right in the first place.
My guest today, Vladimir Djurovic, is an expertin this field, since one of his specialisations
is in creating Chinese names for Western brands.It goes without saying that this episode will
be of particular interest to all the languagenerds out there. If you are one of these people,
(00:54):
the best accompaniment to today's show wouldmy interview with the literary translator
Gigi Chang from Season 1 Episode 24.
Quickly before we start, in our conversationabout the Chinese version of the brand 'Marvel',
we forgot to mention that the 漫 [Màn] in漫威 [Mànwēi] means 'comics', which you
might otherwise know from the Japanese reading,because it's the same 'Man' as in the Japanese
(01:18):
word ‘マンガ [Manga]’. And also itwas Vladimir's birthday on the 25th, which
was last Thursday, so happy birthday Vladimir.
[Part 1]OF: I’m here with Vladimir Djurovic, you
are the CEO and Founder of LABBRAND.VD: That's correct.
OF (01:35):
What is LABBRAND? VD
‘lab’ ‘brand’. So ‘lab’ is technology,an inventive word. But also in Latin, it means
‘working’ like ‘labour’, you know.It means working on brands. So we do branding,
and we have a story of 15 years now in China.And one of our famous services here is naming
(02:04):
brands looking for a Chinese name.OF: Excellent. Well, we'll go into that in
a minute. But before we do, what is the objectthat you've brought that in some way identifies
what you do here in China?VD: I brought something very slim here. And
maybe you have never seen that before.OF: I have not, what is that?
VD (02:22):
Well, that's something that I kept for 20 years now, because that's something I got
when I was a student in China in 2001. Andthis is called a 饭票 [fànpiào]. So this
one is 0.1 Renminbi - at that time you canprobably buy some rice or something - so that
was basically the money and the currency weused at the canteen in the school. It was
(02:47):
printed and made in 1987.OF: Wow, yeah.
Yeah, so a bit of Chinese history. So I thought this was interesting because it
represents, a little bit, my shift. When Icame to China from France, by the cheapest
flight stopping for hours in Bucharest…OF: Wait, wait, wait, what was that airline
called?VD: It was called TAROM, at that time.
OF (03:07):
Whoa. VD
pay extra fees for my luggage during the stopover.But then, yeah, arriving to China in 2001,
I quit my job in France. I was just startinga career as a banker, all kinds of sophisticated
tools for measuring risk in markets.OF: The ones that eventually brought down
(03:31):
the whole world, right?VD: Exactly. So I was escaping that, actually,
I was just doing an internship. And they reallythought I was crazy to take this plane through
Romania to land into a university, totallyimmersed in a Chinese Master degree programme.
Oh wow. VD
(03:51):
I managed to go through that process. So that'show I landed.
Wow. Well, this is a good juncture for me to actually play you this clip.
[Start of Audio Clip]Stephane de Montgros: I think you should interview
Vladimir Djurovic, he is the founder of agreat brand consulting company called LABBRAND.
And you're gonna have a blast meeting him.He is extremely insightful, and I can't wait
(04:16):
to hear the answers to the questions you'regoing to ask.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was of course, our mutual friend
Stephane from Season 01.VD: We met in Shanghai, actually, during a
study trip for one summer. And we remain friendssince then. Actually I arrived slightly before
him, and he followed me a few years later,I think inspired by all the passion I had
(04:38):
for China.OF: This is what I was gonna say, like, which
one of you came first?VD: Yeah, he was the first on ‘Mosaic’
though, so I think…OF: Ah..! Well, let's fast-forward, away from
the story of your 饭票 [fànpiào], andtalk about today. So tell us about what you're
doing, particularly in the area of ‘naming’,as you said.
VD (04:58):
Well naming, I didn't know it existed. Many people I talk to, they still are surprised
that this exists, but there is a job for namingbrands, or things, or devices, or categories
of products, tag-lines. So there is a lotof verbal creativity involved. And there is
(05:19):
no way to translate, in a unique way, an inventedname like a brand name. So you could have
multiple ways to adapt it, and there is nota total correspondence with the sounds of
French, English - or any other language - withthe sounds you find in the Chinese language.
(05:39):
So there are sounds that are pretty close,some that do not exist. And that actually
creates the opportunity to choose, to pickup a way to be closer, either in sounds, or
even to depart from phonetics and try to giveit just a semantic meaning that will represent
it. So because there is a choice to be made,some companies really find it a headache.
(06:04):
My first employer in China was Galeries Lafayette,so it's a famous French department store,
and they had the question of "What is ourChinese name?” They had one, they were called
老佛爷 [Lǎofóyé], which is the nicknameof 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], it’s…
OF (06:22):
Oh, was it? VD
it literally, it's like ‘old’, ‘Buddha’,and something like ‘爷爷 [yéyé]’,
like ‘grandpa’. So it's a bit odd fora brand that is thinking about attributes
of the ‘Capital of Fashion’ - ‘Capitalede la Mode’ - you know, like something very
fashionable and trendy. But this name wasvery catchy for the Chinese. Everyone that
(06:45):
hears it, they can remember it. The issuewas it was not trademarkable. This legal issue
is pretty common for many, many other brands.Today, when we create a name, you may imagine
that it comes like a stroke of genius, thatyou're thinking, and you will find one name.
Actually it doesn't come at all like that.When you try to use a name that you create,
(07:05):
it has to be registered as a trademark. Andthe trademark system in China is very, very
tricky or demanding, because you need to benot only different from the other trademarks
or the other names, but not easily confusedwith another one. So the usual rule is that,
out of usually three characters that representa Chinese name, that actually two of them
(07:30):
are different from any other trademarks.OF: Any other?
VD (07:34):
In your class. There are 45 classes of products. So in your category, with comparable
goods, you need to find actually quite animportant space between your name and the
other ones. That's the reason why when wecreate names, we have to expect that a lot
of good ideas won't be possible. And that'swhy we need to really look for a lot of names,
(07:57):
and explore ‘edges’, in a way.OF: Right, because when you're starting the
process, you don't know which of those charactersyou're starting with are going to be clashes.
Or do you start with those lists of charactersthat you can’t use?
You can’t, because there are literally 20 million trademarks already registered.
So you can't really think about which oneis available or not. But with experience,
(08:18):
you will know which characters are rare enoughto give you good chances that you won't step
on another brand too close, to keep your distances.And, you know I mentioned the 45 classes,
each product that you have in Class 3 - itsthe class of cosmetics - for example, or Class
25 for fashion, those are very, very fullof brands. So those are like… Finding the
(08:43):
name is like finding those little needlesin a haystack, you know, we create thousands
of names just to be extracting a few. Andthat's part of the process.
OF (08:51):
Wow, well I want to go into more details. But before that, let's jump back into the
past, then. You were working at Galeries Lafayette,you were on this project, you realised “Whoa,
this is a thing”. So how did you go fromthere to having your own company?
VD (09:05):
Yeah, I think when I was working there it was like 2002-2004.
OF (09:08):
Oh right, so this was their branding for when they were just in France.
VD (09:12):
Exactly, as a destination. So when we did that project, we landed on a name that
was very phonetic. So we ended up with 莱法耶特[Láifǎyétè]. The CEO at the time said
“Well, if someone says the name in Chinesein the taxi, the taxi driver has to bring
the customer to our door. So 莱法耶特[Láifǎyétè] it is.” And 莱法耶特
(09:33):
[Láifǎyétè] means like, 莱 [lái] is蓬莱的莱 [‘Pénglái’ de ‘lái’],
it's a dream island kind of thing.OF: Oh that one.
That one, the 来 [lái] with some herb on the top, you know?
OF (09:43):
Yes. VD
Of course, ‘French’, very good.OF: Oh that's too good.
VD (09:47):
Yeah. 耶 [yé] and 特 [tè], 特别的特 [‘tèbié’ de ‘tè’]. So phonetic,
yeah.OF: I like that. OK, so this is where it's
like a big puzzle.VD: Yeah. So I really loved this experience.
Actually, to create this name. I went to lookfor an agency. And I was the client at that
time. And I didn't manage to spot a namingagency in China. And I found it crazy because
you had a lot of 风水 [Fēngshuǐ] mastersthat were doing naming sometimes, but not
(10:12):
in a way that was commercial enough for theneeds of companies to really trust. Not very
easy communication, let's say.OF: Right, because the 风水 [Fēngshuǐ]
masters would do things like count the strokes,right?
Yeah, I don't really understand what they do. But they probably have some good principles.
Yeah, so a 风水 [Fēngshuǐ] master wasnot an option Galeries Lafayette will consider.
(10:32):
And we found a design agency that tried todo it. But then they were presenting the work
more like a creative purely, without necessarilythe interpretation that links with the strategy
of the brand, in a very thorough way. Andwe discovered that actually, if you present
names in Chinese to an owner of a brand, whenthey see a Chinese name, if you don't really
(10:54):
immerse them in the space, it will be almostimpossible for them to jump into one option.
So I discovered that, actually, there wasa bridge to make, and this leap into a new
identity - that never overlaps exactly withthe alphabetic name - is something that needs
a lot of facilitation.OF: And it's such a unique skill, because
(11:17):
you are taking into account the brand values,you’re taking into account the graphic,
and of course the meaning, the sound, everything.There’s such a lot of things that go into
that. How long was it between you doing thisproject at Galeries Lafayette until, then,
you did your own company? Was it like “Oh,wow, this is it”. And then you just quit
and started, or..?VD: This product brought light to something.
(11:37):
“Wow. I mean, this is exactly what I wantto do”. Because it's cultural. It’s with
business, you need to interpret businesses.And then I started really to read about branding,
and to try to understand what's a brand exactly,what's the dimension? Still seeing it a bit
from a scientific mind. So it took me a yearto really switch from that project to selling
(12:00):
my first name for a client. I borrowed a bitof money from a friend - actually €4,000,
not a lot, just a small help - and basicallyI started, in 2005, LABBRAND.
OF (12:13):
Tell me then, if you can think of an example of one of the famous brands that you would
have worked with that we all would know. Walkus through the process.
VD (12:21):
Yeah, the story behind Marvel, because we created the name 漫威 [Mànwēi] for
‘Marvel’.OF: That was you!
Yeah, that was me. And I still remember a few other alternatives. I remember something
like 漫侠 [Mànxiá], where 侠 [xiá] ismore like a ‘fighter’, like the ‘hero’,
in that sense. Whereas, like, 漫威 [Mànwēi]is even closer, phonetically, to Marvel.
OF (12:42):
Yes. VD
more abstract, because 威 [wēi] is like‘power’. Of course, you have the power
of the hero, but it could be also the powerof the manga, of the comics. So ‘comics’
and ‘power’. And it's one brand that hashad tremendous success.
Yeah. VD
And then another one that I really love is‘LinkedIn’, 领英 [Lǐngyīng] in Chinese,
(13:04):
which is the ‘Leading Hero’.OF: Oh.
VD (13:06):
Yeah, and we had a pretty strong candidate that was closer to ‘LinkedIn’, I will
tell you in Chinese, it’s ‘联应 [Liányīng]’,联 [lián] means…
OF (13:16):
Connection? VD
[‘yīnggāi’ de ‘yīng’], it meanslike ‘must’
Or ‘should’. VD
so it's really like ‘LinkedIn’ in ‘linked’and ‘you have to be linked’.
Interesting. So it was that or ‘Leading Hero’?
VD (13:30):
Or ‘Leading Hero’. And you can easily get that ‘Leading Hero’ is much more aspirational.
And there is a dimension of an élite.OF: Right.
And it's not egalitarian like ‘LinkedIn’. if you hear the English name, or alphabetic
name, it looks much more like a community,and it's just about being connected. But in
(13:53):
China, we did the research in Greater China,and we found out that this one was the one
that really had a lot of resonance with thetarget. So we went for this recommendation.
I think it's also interesting because I learn,still, interpretations of the name, a lot
of positive echo, and it's still like… there'sa lot of fans about it. OF: And so, is
(14:18):
there a word for this science?VD: It could be called ‘semiotics’, the
science of the production of meaning. Andrecently, I was reading a book from Barthes,
the famous French semiotician, he's interpretingthe different styles of writing of French
famous writers, one of them being Proust,for example. Actually Proust wanted to become
(14:38):
a writer, but he was really stuck for manyyears before he was able to write his book.
And what unlocked his ability to write, wasto choose invented names for the places in
the book. Until he set up the names, he wasstuck in his creative process. It resonated
(14:59):
with me when I read that, because I felt likewhen we choose names for companies in China,
it's actually also unlocking this capabilityto perform. So… yeah.
OF (15:08):
I knew that if I invited a French person into this podcast studio, at one point we'd
have to talk about philosophy.VD: Yeah, it looks like you need a lot of
knowledge and science. Actually, the codes…We as humans, we are processing a lot of codes
to make sense of the world all the time.OF: Right.
VD (15:28):
So it's really our embedded software for making sense of the world. What is interesting,
when you use semiotics you become more consciousabout it, and you can help a company to use
them for the purpose of bringing a specificmeaning. It's very hard to carve out a meaning
in the world right now. And that's what brandsare about. So that's a challenge, for example,
(15:49):
for companies to think about that. So it'sbroader than the name, of course, but it can
go into design into messaging, into many ways.OF: This was the thing that, you know, first
drew you to this whole business. How muchof your current business is still related
to this naming side.VD: Roughly, if we talk about numbers, it’s
a smaller part now. I mean, it's still somethingwe are known for, but I would say it's likely,
(16:15):
like, 20%. A lot of the work is about brandpositioning, consumer insights, digital experience,
cultural transformation, a variety of things.And yeah, we're still very proud of doing
naming. It’s actually still for me, it'sstill an area that I feel so passionate about.
So it's my favourite part. But our team isdoing a variety of things now.
OF (16:37):
I of course love the naming part, too. VD
But is there something that you're particularly proud of that you're doing in the new realm?
VD (16:46):
Facilitating the communication within teams. Because what I've observed is a lot
of drop of value between what we get in theinsight report, and when the creatives start
to work. It's almost like everyone has a differentinterpretation. Getting them to understand
the chain, having a common language, and gettingthe people in a room to exchange this information,
(17:09):
and work on it together.OF: Yes. Well, I think anyone from any business
can listen to that and know that they havesimilar silos in their organisations. Just
the different cultures between, let's say,a research department versus marketing, versus
sales, versus operations, versus HR. Like,they all would come to the same thing with
a different angle. And I think you as a CEO,it is your responsibility to think about that,
and to work out how you get these people coalescedtogether.
(17:31):
Absolutely. And, you know, after 15 years of working on brands and working like an agent,
that's how we redefined, a little bit, whatbranding is. Because I think if we consider
branding just being creating a name, a logo,fine, we are experts in doing this. But actually,
if you don't help also the company to alsomanage the culture, a lot of what we provide
(17:55):
is lost.OF: Yeah.
Yeah. OF
in with the name. Then you can do work onthe branding. And then you can do work on
a culture transformation.VD: Exactly.
OF (18:05):
I see. So we're coming to the end of Part 1, I'm just.. You know, normally at this point,
I've talked to somebody for this length oftime, and I can kind of get a good sense of
who you are. For you, the way that I describeyou is that you're this scientist with a little
wink, you're a scientist with a smile. HaveI got that right? How would you describe your
(18:26):
personality?VD: I think, very optimistic. And I found
joy in the curiosity of things. So I feellike China was a very nice playground for
that. I started without too much experience.So in a way, I was lucky not to know what’s
to be perfect. And to be constantly in a fieldwhere I was progressing, but I didn't know
(18:48):
how far was the goal that I should reach.So not knowing that was actually quite helpful.
I actually have one favourite T-shirt thatI could have brought, it's called “imperfect”.
And it can be read like “I’m perfect”.OF: Ah.
VD (19:03):
So I think that's a very interesting combination. Because I think as long as you don't necessarily
picture and get obsessed by not failing, ornot looking down when you have vertigo, you're
still in a good place. So that's why I actuallyam so, maybe, with a smile, because I feel
(19:24):
very happy and privileged being there.OF: Nice. Well, we'll move on to Part 2.
Let's go.
[Part 2]OF: OK, on to Part 2. I ask the same 10 questions
to everyone on the show. And so we will startwith Question 1. What is your favourite China-related
fact.VD: I was reopening 孫子 [Sūnzǐ]’s Art
(19:47):
of War. It's a teaching material for kingsand lords. And it's 2,500 years ago. And when
I was reading it, I was still getting a lotof ideas that are so contemporary. And one
of the principles was the 道 [dào] for example: the ethics, the road, the purpose. I was quite (20:05):
undefined
happy to see the 孫子 [Sūnzǐ] preceptsof the best way to win a war and to build
your team is to work on your 道 [dào], whichis I think, part of what a brand does. So
I was like “Hmm, not too bad”. So thisfact of how long ago that was, and how much
(20:30):
it applies to today's world. And it relates,in a way, to what I do. So I felt like this
fact is something that's very memorable forme.
OF (20:37):
Nice. And I like it how you can distil 3,000 years of Daoism into branding.
VD (20:42):
Of course. OF
with Season 01, because Maple Zuo who wasEpisode Two of last season, she also was talking
about 道 [dào] in this question.VD: Oh interesting.
OF (20:54):
So that’s a nice connection. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
VD (20:58):
The one I like is a story I heard from my teacher, when I was in my second year of
Chinese learning. It's a story about a character是 [shì], to be.
OF (21:10):
OK. VD
how do you create an ideogram about that.And the interesting story is that if you look
at it, you have 人 [rén] on the bottom,that is a person. And somehow he seems to
be walking into something that is an obstacle.And then there is a horizontal bar, and above
(21:35):
that you have the sun. So the story couldbe like “You are, when you meet a problem,
and when you faced a difficulty, and whenyou start to see the light. And I like the
story, this 是 [shì] character.OF: Right, it’s almost like Descartes, right?
I think therefore I am I.VD: Exactly.
I run into obstacles under the sun, therefore I am
VD (21:55):
I think resonance with Descartes was probably part of why I was so impressed by that story,
yeah.OF: There you go. I actually met you on your
level, I can't believe it. I don't care aboutpeople who actually know the real answer,
I’m sticking with yours.VD: Thank you.
OF (22:09):
What is your favourite destination within China?
VD (22:13):
It's actually Inner Mongolia. I have the occasion to go there for run about every year
in a marathon in the grassland.OF: Oh I know it.
Yeah. In a small place called 西乌旗 [Xīwūqí]. You can easily get out of it,
run out of it, and get into running in thosegreen hills. It's beautiful. There's occasion
(22:35):
to see double, triple rainbows and to reconnectwith the elements. So definitely one of the
places I like in China.OF: Yeah, I really want to go there. But things
are such long distances that you have to reallyplan a whole week to really see most of what
you want to see, right?VD: Yeah, I go there obviously with a goal
(22:56):
to run a race and come back, spend some timethere, so not dwelling a week and travelling
around. But I like the focus, I like the simplicityof it. I like to walk on the street, there
are still some old cars because it's closerto Russia, some Волга [Volga] brand cars.
So there's a bit of exoticism, but I'd liketo run out of the city in the hills.
OF (23:18):
Nice, yeah. I love the way French people say ‘focus’. I love that. If you left
China, what would you miss the most, and whatwould you miss the least?
VD (23:29):
The spices of China, literally and in a metaphorical way, I think there is so much
flavour, so many things to experiment. Ofcourse the scale, also, of things, which means
you can see things that you can't imaginein other places. And I will say the same thing
(23:49):
that I won't miss is the scale. If one dayI leave China it will be because I want to
go into a smaller place, to live in a moresimple way.
OF (24:00):
Right, yeah. OK, next question. Is there anything that still surprises you about life
in China?VD: This week, I was driving back from a meeting
in 浦东 [Pǔdōng] and it got me to oneof the avenues in the north of Shanghai like
towards door 常熟路 [Chángshúlù], 天目路[Tiānmùlù]. And I saw that the whole avenue
for kilometres was under reconstruction. Isaw China like that 20 years ago, I saw also
(24:27):
this 10 years ago, but in Shanghai. I meanthis year, I still see a lot of construction.
It keeps surprising me to see that that levelof undertaking.
Yeah. Where is your favourite place to go out to eat or drink or hang out?
VD (24:41):
Well I'd love to travel in time when Face Bar was there. That was a place in 瑞亭路
[Ruìtínglù] / 茂名路 [Màomíng lù].It used to be a red brick house with wonderful
cocktails. Currently, I mean, I think I reallyenjoy something that is really close to my
place, I go to a small Japanese restaurantcalled Xime, an interesting Mexican dish interpretation
(25:04):
by a Japanese chef and stuff, and it's quitea small place. So see you there.
OF (25:09):
OK. VD
Yeah. What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
VD (25:15):
One surprisingly good purchase was chairs I bought at IKEA. I bought them 15 years ago
for my office, and I keep getting customersthat ask me where I bought it. They think
it’s super designed and stuff, and it'sjust very modern.
OF (25:33):
Mmm. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? VD
to be inauthentic and try to find one. ButI use, a lot, the emoticons. So I don't use
stickers, but I use emoticons. And my favouriteone is the determined one with the bandana.
It looks very much like me running, it representsme. So I didn't check that box, but I hope
(26:00):
you will give me a pass.OF: Well, I would ordinarily just chuck you
out. But we're almost at the end of the interview.VD: So.
So what can I do? I actually like this one, too. This is a particular WeChat emoticon.
There isn't something which is in the usualemoji which comes close to this one, right?
VD (26:16):
It's true. I never realised that. OF
can still use that.VD: Thank you.
OF (26:24):
That’s just an exception. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV.
VD (26:29):
So people that know me will know that the thing I fear most is to go to KTV. It
has to be a client asking me, or I need tobe super drunk to be able to accept the invitation.
I was actually, I think, terrorised becauseone of my first trip at my first internship
in China, we happened to sing in the lobbyof a hotel.
OF (26:51):
Oh! VD
around the whole building.OF: What? What kind of terrible hotel was
this?VD: It was a building, it was a hotel in 沈阳
[Shěnyáng], 1999 or 2000. So it was a longtime.
Yeah. VD
go for 任賢齊 [Rèn Xiánqí], who is aChinese pop singer from 20 years ago. He sings
(27:12):
very simple songs like 对面的女孩看过来[Duìmiàn de nǚhái kànguòlái], this
type of thing, very light-hearted. And I thinkthat, I can do.
Vladimir, it's the same song that Stephane chose.
VD (27:25):
No way. But there's one reason for that, it’s that we had the same teacher in Chinese,
and probably we learnt it at that time. Imust say there is a reason.
OF (27:37):
Yes. Well, since knowing it from Stephane, I've learned that song. It's super easy.
VD (27:43):
That's why, I mean, that's the only one I could pretend to sing. So I keep it.
OF (27:48):
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?VD: I get curated content twice a week, at
the occasion of my Chinese class. Becausemy Chinese teacher will pick up the curated
content from the news. And we will have areview of very good content. So I'm learning
(28:11):
language, but actually, I'm learning a wholestory of topics. And I learned things that
I've never read in the media usually.OF: That's excellent. Well, thank you so much
for that, Vladimir. And finally, the lastthing before you leave, who would you recommend
that I interview in the next season of Mosaicof China?
VD (28:29):
Bertrand Cristeau. He has arrived in China around 20 years before me. Most interestingly,
he has recently opened a vineyard…OF: Oh, a vineyard.
A vineyard. A vineyard in 云南 [Yúnnán]. And that’s, for sure, one that I will listen
to next season. So I'm really looking forwardto hear Bertrand next year.
OF (28:55):
Thanks so much Vladimir. VD
[Outro]OF: I don't have favourites in this podcast,
but I'll always be a fan of anyone who inhabitsthat space between languages, where you have
sounds and meanings on one side that simplydo not correspond with the other. It reminds
me of the episode with Srinivas Yanamandrafrom Season 01 Episode 15, who philosophised
(29:21):
that saying his name in Chinese was aboutas futile as trying to say his name in Mathematics.
Srini and Vladimir, if you're both listening,you need to get together.
If you're a fan of playing around with Mandarin,I want to recommend you listen to the Mandarin
Slang Guide podcast with Josh Ogden-Davis.He has nothing to do with this show, I just
(29:43):
like him as a person and like what he does.So go check it out. And please also check
out the images from today's episode on thenew Instagram account for the show on the
handle @mosaicofchina_, I rebuilt it fromscratch after the old ones got taken down.
It's got a whole new look, and it has zerofollowers, so it's tremendously exclusive
(30:04):
right now. And speaking of exclusive, if youwant to hear some more from Vladimir, including
the story behind how he came up with the Chinesename for TripAdvisor, please subscribe to
the PREMIUM version of the show on https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina.Here are a few clips from today's episode…
[Clip 1]VD: There is another big issue when you choose
(30:26):
a name. It’s the different dialects in China.OF: Oh.
[Clip 2]VD: So basically people could imagine that
the roof was falling on their head.[Clip 3]
VD (30:33):
We have more than a dozen namers. We're probably the biggest naming team in the world,
actually.[Clip 4]
’The eagle with the cat's head’, 猫 [māo] 头 [tóu] 鹰 [yīng].
OF (30:43):
Ah. VD
[Clip 5]VD: Twenty people that speak Chinese with
a different background, they will perceivethe name with twenty different perceptions.
[Clip 6]VD: There might be some job openings. So…
No, I'm unemployable at this point. [End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for today. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny
(31:04):
Newell. After the credits, today’s catch-upchat is with the person who referred Vladimir,
Stephane de Montgros from Season 01 Episode19. So stick around for that, and we’ll
be back next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Thank you for coming, Stephane.
SDM (31:29):
Good afternoon. Great to see you again Oscar.
OF (31:31):
Yes, we recorded our interview in late 2019. And then we released it just before
the Chinese New Year. We were talking about“You know what, 2020 will be a better year
for hotels, because it had been a little bitflat in 2019”. And that was literally the
week before COVID struck.SDM: Correct. It's been a very, very intense
(31:54):
year. So we are in the event industry, right.So our job is to get people together. The
most ironic thing is that the Q1 we preparedfor 2020 was the best Q1 ever in the history
of the company. I've been here for 20 years,the company is 13 years old. And then obviously,
(32:15):
January 23, they had to shut down 武汉 [Wǔhàn]and 湖北 [Húběi]. So I left on that same
day for a Chinese New Year break, and I wentto my Bangkok office, because I wanted to
keep working while China was getting somerest. It was supposed to be a 10 days break
from China, it ended up being two months.And from very, very, very early, I understood,
(32:36):
we were in big trouble. At some point I justasked myself “OK, like, should I just give
up?”OF: Right.
SDM (32:42):
“Like, should we should we just call it a day?" The beautiful thing is, after I
was asking myself this this question, theanswer is “Damn, I love my job. So I will
do everything I can to make it work”. Soit's all about the domestic demand. And it's
very interesting, because a lot of the wealthierChinese people that were used to spending
(33:04):
some of their money outside of China travelling,buying luxury goods, now have no options but
to spend that same money within the country.And that's been supporting a lot of the luxury
brands, luxury hotels, that we are workingwith. So it's not all rosy. Not everyone was
able to keep the same income. Some peopleare still working on a four days a week basis
(33:29):
with some salary cuts. But overall, the economyis healthy. And most of the brands we are
working with are doing very, very well, andspending more in developing the demand and
the growth for for 2021.OF: Well what it does is, I think it does
give hope to people who are listening - perhapsnot in China - the rebound, when it happens,
(33:52):
it happens big. And people who've been stuckindoors, people who haven't travelled, they
all suddenly will travel. And it'll be a hugebounce, right?
Yes, I completely agree with you. The hope is there. And the Chinese market is living
proof that when you give them the opportunityto spend money and travel, they will do so.
So very hopeful for the future of tourismand travel in general.
OF (34:17):
Well, the one thing that I took into account from our last chat was your recommendation
that I run by the river, because I was makingexcuses that I am not doing enough running.
Well, I didn't do it. I'm still not running,because I just can't be bothered to jump on
the subway and go two stops. I mean, that'sjust how my mind works. If there's any obstacle,
(34:40):
I'm not going to do it. But what I did do,so when I have a meeting, I try and make sure
that I build enough time into my schedulethat I can walk there. So now I walk to meetings,
I walk back.SDM: Good.
So I'm doing something for my health, but I am still not running.
SDM (34:54):
But I think it's exactly the same spirit. Running, walking, is about giving your brain
the space to process. I can tell you, runningsaved my year again, it was so hard, there
was so much to process, making the right decisionsat the right time, not wasting time in taking
(35:15):
the hard decisions that you have to take sometimes.And running was, more than ever, my way to
process this amount of information we weregetting, and trying to make sense of “OK,
what is the best way to move forward?” SoI invite you again - Oscar you can do this
- by the third time we sit down together,you'll be running a marathon.
OF (35:33):
I mean, I've done them in the past, that’s the problem. I just, for some reason, can't
bring myself to go back. I still get whatyou're doing. I still have ideas, they're
just at a slower pace. I'm not running anywherefast.
SDM (35:47):
As long as it works for you, that’s all that matters.
OF (35:50):
Thank you. We are going to release this episode alongside the person who you referred
for Season 02. So that was Vladimir, haveyou been in touch with Vladimir?
SDM (36:00):
More than ever. One of the benefits of being somehow stuck in one city is that you
have a lot more time to actually develop relationshipsand friendships with the people around you.
This year, we've been actually able to spendweekly dinners together, usually on Wednesday
nights. It's been absolutely beautiful tobe able to exchange with people that were
(36:24):
going through the same kind of challenges.So we are closer than we've ever been. And
Vladimir is a friend of 20 years, and 2020brought us back together more than we've ever
been.OF: Stephane, thank you so much.
Fantastic. Thank you for having me again.
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