June 21, 2021 • 39 mins
China is the world's largest vehicle market, both by manufacturing output and by annual sales. And at the heart of that business is the strategic car designer, someone who can not only plot a future design vision for the company, but can also work in collaboration with engineers and marketers to turn that vision into a reality. Ajay Jain has been designing cars since he could hold a pencil, and it was this passion that ultimately led him to becoming a strategic design manager for the electric vehicle range at Geely, the largest privately held automotive company in China. Having spent half his career in China (at Geely and previously at SAIC) and the other half in Europe (at Opel, Ford, Saab and Renault), Ajay is uniquely qualified to talk about the world of car design, and China's increasingly influential position in that world. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:18 - Part 1 25:41 - Part 2 34:47 - Outro Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-21-ajay-jain.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: What are the brands like in China?
AJ (00:04):
There are about 500 brands. OF
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
In today's show, I'm talking with Ajay Jain,who is a senior car designer. This is very
(00:25):
special episode to me, because I grew up ina household of car fanatics. My older brother
Daniel could reel off all the statistics aboutevery car model you could think of, and my
father always kept a stack of the latest carmagazines in the corner of what he called
his 'library,' and what everyone else in thehousehold called 'the downstairs toilet'.
(00:47):
I had absolutely no interest in cars, andwhile I think I always quite enjoyed the scorn
that this elicited, I couldn't help but alsofeel like I was missing out on something.
So today's episode is not just an amazingdiscussion - which encompasses so much about
Ajay, about China, and about the very natureof artistic collaboration in a commercialised
(01:09):
setting - it also feels like some kind ofpersonal redemption for someone whose answer
to the question "What's your favourite car"has always been "Blue ones".
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much, AJ.
OK. OF
What is your actual title?AJ: I am ‘Senior Manager, Head of Strategic
(01:33):
Design’.OF: Got it. In short, you are a car designer.
Yeah. OF
companies here in China. We're not going tomention the company, are we? Because you are
talking in your personal capacity. So we aregoing to make sure that there is a distance
between you and the official word of the company.AJ: Yeah. I believe it's the largest privately-owned
(01:54):
car OEM in China.OF: There you go.
Yeah. OF
in, that in some way describes your life inChina?
It's this little sketchbook. So as a designer, I walk around with a sketchbook all the time.
I have, until very recently, resisted thetemptation of going digital. The one I've
(02:15):
brought here today is actually from my previousemployer. It's a British car company with
a 90-year-anniversary sketchbook. It's thesketchbook I was using between transitioning
from my previous job to my current job. Andat the last few pages, I've just noticed,
I have a few additions by my daughters, withpink fluorescent felt pens. That kind of sums
(02:41):
it up, because my daughters born here in Shanghai,they've lived all their lives here - five
years and three years - contributing to mycreativity here.
OF (02:49):
Oh how lovely. AJ
Well, I'm not sure I would buy the car that she had just tried to draw, it looks
a little bit surreal. But the rest of thedrawings looked very technical.
AJ (02:58):
Oh, you’ve got no vision. OF
I'm doing mine. That is beautiful. And I thinkit's such an amazing insight into what you
do. I mean, as a car designer, is it basicallymainly sketching, is it?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's creation. It's it's coming up with ideas. It's a lot of drawing.
(03:19):
Drawing is the language of car design, especiallywhen you work in different countries with
different languages, different disciplines.You're talking to engineers, you're talking
to marketing people, there's only one quickway of expressing ideas. And I think this
works for almost any creative field.OF: This is where I'm jealous, because I'm
a terrible drawer. I can't sketch to savemy life. No way.
(03:43):
It's like anything. Of course, there are many people who are born with the talent.
And there are others who hone the talent.And it's like anything, with practice you
just get better and better at it. It's a fluencythat comes from practising.
OF (03:58):
Right. And which one are you? AJ
to college in Switzerland. And there, I realisedthat I didn't have talent. But what I did
have was, it was like a boot camp. I mean,literally, first day of college, we had to
draw 500 cubes, 1000 lines, you know. So itwas practice, practice, practice, practice.
(04:20):
And just build fluency.OF: And that was in Switzerland.
AJ (04:22):
Yeah. OF
It's called the ArtCenter College of Design. Its original campus is in Pasadena, in California.
And in the 80s, I think they decided thatthey wanted to create a global footprint of
design colleges, so they created this collegein Switzerland. It is now the private residence,
(04:44):
I believe, of Shania Twain.OF: Oh, you're kidding.
Yeah. It’s a beautiful old Chateau with a farmhouse, overlooking Lake Geneva, looking
overlooking the French Alps.OF: Oh, amazing.
Yeah. OF
think would come up in this conversation.AJ: Yeah.
OF (04:59):
And so, for you, that was your first foray into the specialisation of car design. Or
had you had any experience before?AJ: Yeah, I was 17 and I had just come straight
out of school. So I just knew, this is whatI wanted to do.
You knew since when? AJ
Oh right, you’re one of those guys. AJ
(05:22):
I can remember, and playing with cars. AndI think they’re the most fascinating man-made
object there is.OF: This is where? So where were you growing
up?AJ: I was growing up in India. Teenage years
in Chennai, and early years in Mumbai.OF: OK. Maybe this is a good chance to actually
work out how the hell you got to China. BecauseI'm thinking about your object, and you said
that you were transitioning at that pointfrom a British company before you came to
(05:45):
Shanghai. So what is the whole timeline, then?AJ: At 17, I left India to go study in Switzerland.
I had an internship, 1994, at Opel in Germany,after which I went back to college, finished
my college, graduated in ’95. I moved towork in Cologne in Germany, I was there until
(06:07):
’97.OF: Hang on, what this still Opel? No.
AJ (06:09):
No, this was at Ford. Big American influence in the company and on my colleagues.
OF (06:15):
And this was your first proper job then, right?
AJ (06:17):
This was my first proper job, yeah. OF
Yeah, that was as a car designer. Yeah, I was working on the rearview mirrors of the
Ford Focus, and odds and ends, and door handles.OF: That was one fine rearview mirror. Wow.
AJ, great job. But presumably, because itwas your first job, you already felt like
(06:38):
“Wow, I've made it.” Like “Even thoughit's just this small mirror, I shouldn't complain."
Or..?AJ: There was a moment when I was complaining,
and a 55-year-old engineer came up to me andand told me how lucky I was. Because he thought
he was going to be designing. And by the timehe finished his engineering college, got his
job, and went into an engineering department,he realised it's not the same thing. So that
(07:03):
made me realise it's quite a fortunate positionto be in.
OF (07:06):
Yeah, so even within the company, you had an exalted role.
AJ (07:10):
Yeah, usually in a technical centre, or an engineering centre, there can be over 10,000
engineers, and you know, just a handful - 50-60- designers. They don't have the same education,
or the same expertise as the other engineers.And then I like to say, we've got this superpower,
where we can actually visualise the futureproduct. Everybody else can look at it in
(07:35):
numbers, and spreadsheets, and projections,and charts; engineers can look at them a little
bit at a time. We're the only ones who paintthe full picture, because from the first sketch
to when it gets into production on the road,takes about five years.
OF (07:50):
Oh wow, yeah. AJ
I've got to think is gonna be trendsettingor leading in five years time. And then it
has to sell for another 10 years. So thatmeans it has to be ‘current’ for the next
15 years, yeah? So, you know, you do haveto have a certain amount of ‘futuring’.
By contrast, fashion design is just thinkingabout the next season. So I think it's somewhere
(08:17):
between fashion and architecture. Becausean architect had better get that building
right, for the next 50 to 100 years.OF: Yeah.
AJ (08:23):
Car design is somewhere in between. OF
what happened next?AJ: Yeah, I moved to Daewoo in the UK, and
I lived in Brighton and Hove, which was adifferent experience.
OF (08:35):
How long were you in the UK? AJ
Yeah, the Asian financial crisis happened,Daewoo went bankrupt, so I found this great
opportunity for working at a very iconic brandin Sweden called Saab.
Oh Saab, yep. AJ
And that was where in Sweden? AJ
be a pattern, Saab went bankrupt, and…OF: This is all your fault, AJ.
AJ (09:00):
Yeah, in fact even the college I went to close down now.
OF (09:02):
Yeah, right. AJ
to a place that I used too apply to, almostevery time I was in a crisis and looking for
a job. A dream car design studio, I'd say,which is Renault in France
Renault, OK. AJ
(09:22):
Paris.OF: Nice.
AJ (09:23):
I was at Renault for six years. Two years in France, then they sent me to India for
two years to set up a design studio in Indiaat Renault, and then I came back. And going
there was fantastic.OF: OK. Well, there are so many questions
I could ask. But I guess I'll save that untilwe do Mosaic of France. Let's go to the next
(09:45):
step, was that China then?AJ: Yeah. China is where the car industry
is booming. It's where all the jobs are rightnow, it’s where… there’s so much happening
here. And I had a friend who was coming toShanghai, and I knew that the only car design
jobs were in Shanghai. I applied to my previousemployers - ex-colleagues of mine, they were
(10:06):
at what used to be MG Rover - and it was perfect,a perfect job for me to come here. That was
nine years ago. Most of the time, I work ina very China-dominated environment. In my
last job, there were just a couple of us.And then for a while, it was only me as a
foreigner in a department of about 200 people.And, again, I just find them so optimistic
(10:31):
and enthusiastic, with a nice dash of ambitionand willingness to go the extra mile, and
achieve great things. I would call it maybea hunger.
OF (10:44):
…Which you do get in Europe, but I guess it's a different kind of feeling.
AJ (10:48):
A little more entitlement in Europe. OF
OF (10:51):
You know, everybody points out the ‘Little Emperors’ when they talk about young Chinese
kids, but there's also the side of them reallywanting to prove to their parents that they
are good at doing what they're doing. And,you know, shake off their mollycoddled 'Little
Emperor’ image. Whereas I think most ofthe European young guys would not really listen
(11:18):
to an old guy in the studio, it'd be moreof a competitive way, that tried to show their
superiority and their ambition. Younger Chinesedesigners, they want to learn first, they
want to assimilate the knowledge. When theythink they've learned enough, they start becoming
(11:39):
entitled, or challenging, or competitive.OF: But then they've earned it, right?
AJ (11:43):
They've earned it, for sure. And it's what the Chinese car industry is doing right
now, where they've realised that “We'velearned how to make cars. We've leapfrogged
in terms of technology. We’ve gone intoelectric cars, and we’re probably better
than anyone else before. And we've done itfaster than anyone else, way faster than the
(12:04):
Koreans, and the Japanese before them”.So you see this confidence that's just building,
in just the same way. You see it on the countryscale, and I see it on the personal scale.
OF (12:17):
Yeah. For me, I'm not a car fanatic. So when I see a Chinese car, I don't really pay
attention to it. Like, what are the brandslike in China?
AJ (12:26):
There are about 500 brands. OF
There are about 500 car brands, and all of them are difficult to really know. Many
of them belong to a big conglomerate. You'dthink it's a different brand, but actually
it's part of 东风 [Dōngfēng] Group, orthe the other groups. And every state, every
region, seems to have these big industrialplayers, that are big employers, and they've
(12:50):
got multiple brands. And then there are alsoall these little startups. I don't know this
for a fact, but I can imagine that somebodyup top says “Oh look. We manufacture way
too many cars. But we can't shut those factoriesdown, because a lot of people are dependent
on those jobs, and that's what we use to bringpeople out of poverty into the middle classes.
And now we’ve got to do something else withthose factories”. And somebody says “Yeah,
(13:12):
we’re going to make delivery drones,”or Mars exploratory vehicles, or whatever.
And the fact that they've got their eyeballsin the future is just going to propel this
country further and further.OF: Yeah.
Yeah. OF
I'm sure there are people out there who understandcars more than I do, and they're shouting
(13:36):
“Ask them about the car design!” So here'swhat I'm going to ask you first of all. So
now you're in this current setup, how manypeople are in your design studio? And why
don't you talk me through all the differentpeople who you work with.
So I mean, firstly, no matter how well you know cars, I don't think anybody appreciates
that a car has over 30,000 different piecesto go together.
OF (13:58):
30,000, right. AJ
engineering and mass production.OF: I guess, when you compare it with a piece
of furniture that’s…AJ: Or you compare with a mobile phone as
well, you know, which people consider verysophisticated manufacturing. You take it apart,
and there's not that much that goes in there.And there are a lot of regulations to keep
(14:18):
you alive in a crash, to keep you safe, tokeep you moving. You're moving at 100 kilometres
an hour. And everything that you touch, orfeel, or can see on the car, has been designed
by somebody. So while the dream of car design- or the image of a car designer - is somebody
who's sitting and sketching this beautifulexterior, there's a lot of putting together
(14:40):
little bits and pieces. And in a design studio,we've got designers who design the exterior,
but then you'll have some who are specialisingin lamps and other details. We’re split
up into six different functions. There's peoplewho do the branding, there's people who do
all the communication, all the publicity,the logos, the way we project ourselves beyond
(15:02):
the cars, including the motor shows, the dealerships.Typically the design studio will have some
influence on the dealership, the point ofsale, the colours, even the costumes of the
hostesses.OF: Right. Which is also part of car design,
I guess.AJ: Which is part of car design.
Right. AJ
(15:24):
who do strategy where we look at the planfor the next ten years, look at synergies,
look at different products, look at differentdifferentiation points, try to create a vision
for the future that can then be translatedinto all the other projects. Today, you know,
you've got people who are doing the software;or the interaction; the screen; the Human
Machine Interface, the ‘HMI’. And thenthere's what we call ‘Colour, Materials,
(15:47):
Finish’ designers. So a car is the onlyproduct that's sold in a multitude of different
colours, specifications, we call them ‘trimlevels’, each of them should look homogenous.
You take shoes, for example, you get a pairof adidas trainers, and there's maybe three
or four colour choices on one physical object.You know, Apple did five different colours,
(16:07):
and it's like “Wow, there’s five.”OF: Whoop-de-do.
AJ (16:09):
Yeah. Whereas we’ve probably got 10-15 different permutations, combinations, and
then all those colours and all those finishesneed to work together. And then there's always
special editions, sport editions. Then we'vegot cast modellers, physical clay sculptors,
fabrication specialists who make things outof harder materials. So that level of craft
(16:35):
in there. It’s like a massive factory, I call it the creativity factory.
OF (16:41):
Yeah. AJ
the car outside. Because when you look ata car inside, it's not in its right environment.
So you've got to take it outside to look atit, in reality, in nature, and against other
cars, with natural light. I don't know, Iwould say it's like going to the zoo and looking
at a tiger, or going to the Serengeti andseeing the lions take a hunt or something.
(17:06):
And of course, you're not working in isolation. You have to work with the marketing team,
you have to work with the engineers, right?Like, you have to work out what looks good,
but what is actually possible too, right?AJ: Yeah, unfortunately, we do.
What is a general interaction that you are likely to have with either department?
AJ (17:23):
The marketing department’s a tricky one. Because they know what's selling right
now. They have a lot of data and it gets moreand more. They have a lot of intel, they know
what's successful, they know what's hot. Andvery often that clouds their judgement of
what could be successful in the next fiveyears. So it's really difficult to try and
(17:47):
explain to them that they need to look beyondtoday. We have a hunch, which is all we have
because we don't have their kind of data.And we've seen a trend towards this. So we
got to extrapolate that.OF: So that's with marketing. How about, then,
with the engineers, for example?AJ: Most of the engineers are very, very specialised.
(18:09):
And organisationally, they're also very siloed.I remember in my first job, there was a lady
- she was called ‘Badge Component Engineer’- and she was fighting with the ‘Water Jet
Engineer’, because the badge was interferingwith the water jet on the back of the Ford
Focus. So 30,000 parts, each of them has aspecialisation of engineers who know how they're
(18:34):
made. And then they probably have differentsuppliers for each of these parts, who have
another expertise.OF: Yeah.
So they look really, really, really a small section of what the big picture is.
And they get very fixated on that - focusingon their project, or their car - and they
(18:55):
don't look at the bigger picture of the brand,of the whole lineup of cars, which is really
challenging.OF: Right. It's the interaction between the
idealism - the creativity - of designing;versus the practicality -the cost control
- of the reality of making this car, right?AJ: Yeah. Thank god we have something called
(19:17):
concept cars. And that's when designers canshow a vision of the future, without the constraints.
OF (19:24):
Ah. AJ
as it were. But then you get people lookingat it and saying “Oh, why didn't you make
that car?”OF: Oh.
AJ (19:35):
They just don’t get it. “Why didn't that company make exactly that?”
OF (19:39):
Because of the cost constraints, right? AJ
because of the technology.OF: Right.
AJ (19:44):
So yeah, concept cars are rolling creative ideas. They are the ‘haute couture’ of
fashion.OF: How interesting. Yes,I can see exactly
what you mean, with the parallel between cardesign and fashion design now.
Yeah. OF
where you think “Oh, I can tell exactlywhat went wrong in the process.” Where perhaps
(20:05):
the designer went too far, or perhaps theengineer reined things in. Like, can you see,
on the road, examples of when that's happened?AJ: Oh, I really try not to judge other people's
work. What we should be getting judged by- employed by - is by what we put in to the
(20:26):
job. And we are a little bit of a snobbishindustry, where a designer who's done a lot
of concept cars - without any engineeringconstraints - seems to have a very high profile.
Whereas designers who've been slogging itout - and are actually extremely competent,
and good at their job - don’t seem to havesuch a high profile.
OF (20:49):
Yeah. It’s such a big collaborative effort, right?
AJ (20:52):
Yeah. OF
on the street where you think “Oh, I wishI had designed that one”?
Oh, there are a lot of those. I'll tell you the ones that are even worse to look at,
are the ones that you look at, snd you say“I had that”.
OF (21:09):
Ah. AJ
just done it. And my boss didn't pick it up.And my engineers thought it was too crazy.”
And there have been a few of those. And that'sthe one that you really look at with envy,
and a little bit of regret.OF: Totally. Because it's not like you can
(21:29):
say “Right, screw you, I'm going to go makeit by myself!”
AJ (21:31):
Yeah, I wish. I hope that's where the industry is gonna evolve, with all these new
technologies and…OF: 3D printing at home. AJ: 3D printing,
manufacturing your own cars, open-source manufacturing.You know, I zap you the drawings, and somebody
would make it in somewhere in 天津 [Tiānjīn]or 武汉 [Wǔhàn].
OF (21:47):
Yes. Well, we’re talking about the future, so what are the trends coming down the pipeline
that we should be looking forward to?AJ: It's funny, because two years ago, if
you asked me what I was doing, and I’d said“You know, I'm designing electric cars,”
it was like I'm on the cutting edge of cardesign, beyond maybe designing a Ferrari,
or the craziest concept cars. And it lookslike somehow that bubble’s already burst.
(22:12):
While all the European companies are now gettinginto gear to start making electric cars, China
is going to move into hydrogen and fuel cells.OF: How does that then affect the design work,
for example?AJ: When we moved from a horseless carriage,
the horse disappeared, and then we could designthis area to put the engine in, and then put
the wheels next to the engine, and changethe cabin. And then from that, over 100 years,
(22:37):
the engine cabin’s almost pretty much stayedthe same. And then electric cars come along,
and then you say “Hey, we don't need anengine cabin”. But you've got this great
big battery to worry about. There's also anaesthetic element. You know, when you're designing
a fuel combustion car, you've got things likeexhaust pipes and air vents, to show that
(22:59):
kind of roaring power. And then you get intoyour electric cars, and then you're like “Ooh,
I want it to look like a Dyson vacuum cleaner”.Look efficient, and aerodynamic, and soundless,
and gives up nothing dirty. 15 years ago,my ex boss - and a good friend of mine - had
posted on LinkedIn “What does electricitylook like?” And that's a really interesting
(23:20):
thought, that gets me moving. And I wroteto him the other day, I said "You've got to
start thinking what hydrogen looks like”.OF: Wow
AJ (23:28):
Is it blue? Is it white? OF
down the street in these clouds.AJ: It certainly feels like it, on a scooter
in Shanghai.OF: Yes, because we haven't even talked about
the sounds. Because you have to also designinto the car, like, no rattles, right?
Yeah. Actually, the latest BMW concept, the sound is done by Hans Zimmer of all the
(23:51):
Hollywood movies.OF: Oh.
So all the soundscape, of the noises, of the sound. So there is also this discipline
of sound design, which is just coming intoour industry.
OF (24:03):
Oh wow. AJ
‘bongs’ that you have. Obviously Applephones, or any mobile phones, they've got
this sound universe that also links in withtheir marketing and advertising.
Yes. AJ
kinds of things.OF: Even the little haptics
AJ (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
swim a little bit. There's just too much thatgoes into what you do, I can see now. I get
it. I get it.AJ: Yeah.
OF (24:26):
And what about you, then? I mean, we talked at the beginning about how you've come from
India, to Switzerland, to Sweden, to France,to England, to Germany. It's kind of mind-blowing.
I can sort of see your progression - justhearing your story - I can see it as 1) it's
you chasing adventure; but you're also tryingto run away from becoming redundant in your
(24:46):
own field, right?AJ: Yeah, I mean, the field changes. I mean,
just drawing, we used to draw on a certainkind of paper, that paper stopped. We got
onto drawing on computers, it's a new skillthat I had to learn. So there's all these
technologies that keep throwing stuff at you,and you have to keep up with it.
Yeah. Well, at the beginning of that development, you said “drawing” and “writing” and
(25:10):
"sketching", and I'm looking at your objectstill sitting here in between us on the table.
Maybe it's making me think about my family.My father is an engineer, my brother is an
engineer, my uncle is an engineer. I thinkI'm the only one who's not an engineer. You're
not quite an engineer, but you're as closeas an engineer as I've had in the studio.
So I hope that my father is in some way proudof me for interviewing you.
AJ (25:30):
Oh right. Yeah. I'm sure my father will be proud to hear the interview.
OF (25:35):
There you go. AJ, thank you so much. That was fascinating. We are now going to move
on to Part 2.AJ: Oh right.
[Part 2]OF: All right, the 10 questions.
AJ (25:44):
Yeah. OF
I think so. OF
Yeah. OF
Yeah, this one's interesting, because it's kind of related to India. By India banging
into China, it means all the water flows southand all the rivers flow south. So India has
(26:06):
got plenty of land, and arable land, and rivers,and fertile plains of the Ganges, and what
have you. And they've got the luxury of beingvegetarians, and then living off the land.
Whereas China's got to find arable land. Andonly 2% of the world's arable land is consumed
by 20% of the world's population. So thatmeans the Chinese people are super resourceful,
(26:31):
whether they cut steps into mountains, theyeat different things. And I think that is
also what makes them intrinsically programmedfor innovation. Survival is their innovation.
OF (26:45):
Right. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AJ (26:48):
No, I don't. And if I did, I think my daughters would correct the pronunciation
and the tones. Because they call me the 外国人[Wàiguórén]. So…
OF (26:59):
Yes. Is that something you hear in the office on a regular basis?
AJ (27:02):
Yeah, a lot of my car designer friends are gonna go crazy when they hear this. It’s
a word called 大气 [dàqì]. Literally,every foreigner who comes here to design cars
is told by his boss “I want 大气 [dàqì].”And 大气 [dàqì] is something like ‘prestigious’
or ‘grand’ or ‘premium’ or… Andthis word drives all the car designers absolutely
(27:25):
bonkers. Because a lot of the time， theCEO of the company will say 大气 [dàqì].
“No, this is not 大气 [dàqì] enough,you need to be 大气 [dàqì]”. And it's
like “What is 大气 [dàqì]?” And it'sthis word that doesn't translate. It's a word
that doesn't seem to have any specific meaning.But it's just something where basically, “Your
(27:45):
design’s not good enough for China,” youknow, “It's not good enough for me, and
you’ve got to do better. It's not 大气[dàqì] enough".
OF (27:53):
Your everyday bane of your life is something I've never even heard of. So that just shows
that there are different lives being led herein China.
AJ (28:00):
Yeah. OF
China?AJ: Shanghai. I’ve travelled quite a bit
in China, I’ve moved around all my life,I've lived in many different places. Shanghai
gives me the impression that I'm living ina different city every day. Everything is
just constantly dynamic. The city reinventsitself, as it were. Five years ago, I was
(28:21):
in Pasadena, in the college that I went to,and these kids were drawing what they thought
was the future of transportation. And thenthey asked me how I went to work. And I told
him that I scan a QR code, and get on anybicycle, get on a metro, and get off the metro,
and take my Segway, and then zip into my office.And that sounded more futuristic than some
(28:42):
of the things that they were conceptualising.So…
OF (28:45):
Yeah. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the
least?AJ: I'd miss everything I've just I've just
told you about (28:52):
the dynamism; the reinvention; the excitement; the convenience of everything;
the actual efficiencies of how things, ifthey didn't work today, they are definitely
working tomorrow.OF: And what about anything that you wouldn't
missAJ: ****ing around with my VPN. One of the
biggest conveniences in China is to do withthe internet. And one of the biggest frustrations
(29:16):
in China is to do with the internet.OF: Yeah.
AJ (29:18):
It’s… yeah. OF
Yeah, it’s the Chinese experience, you can't have both ways. You can't have only
the convenience without some of the frustration.And currently they blocked WeChat in India.
So now, people keep trying to contact me throughWhatsApp. You know, I've got to fiddle around
and try to get online, and they're tryingto call me, and messaging me, wondering why
(29:40):
I'm not responding to the messages.OF: Yes, it is an interesting window into
a potential future, right?AJ: Yeah.
OF (29:48):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
AJ (29:52):
I just came back from from Beijing Motor Show. And do you know, this new cult of journalists
are all people with rigs around themselves,holding cameras, and filming themselves next
to cars. They're like girls dressed up forKTV, or a nightclub. They could be selling
(30:13):
cosmetics, you know. I wonder, are they scripted?What do they say? You know, so it just…
Everything, in every respect, felt out ofcontext with the rest of the world?
OF (30:23):
Yeah. That’s interesting, because that really is how the world treats the car that
you've spent five years pushing through. Like,isn't that weird, when you finally see your
baby come onto the market?AJ: It is weird. In fact, it's like being
a parent. You hope you did the best job youcould. Your kids are never going to turn out
exactly how you wanted them to. You stillhave a certain amount of pride, and a certain
(30:48):
amount of misgivings and regrets.OF: How funny.
AJ (30:52):
So yeah, it's all of that, every few years. OF
as a metaphor. But it really is!AJ: But yeah, no. It's your child. It's your
baby.OF: Wow. Where is your favourite place to
go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?AJ: This one is a question I've thought about
a lot, because it depends when you ask methis. You know, there was a time I used to
(31:15):
love Unico, I used to love 永康路 [YǒngkāngLù], we used to go to Sugar before that.
So right now, the nicest place for us to hangout is right opposite our house, less than
100 metres away, there's a little place calledPorcellino. I'm sure next week it'll be something
else. It’ll be another place.OF: What is the best or worst purchase you
(31:35):
have made in China?AJ: Every time I buy something on Taobao,
it's the worst thing you can buy. Impulsebuying things, you look at the picture, you
don't know what you bought. At one point oftime, I decided I'm going to quit smoking.
So I ended up buying mahogany e-pipes thatlooked like Sherlock Holmes.
OF (31:55):
Oh an actual pipe? AJ
pipes, but were e-pipesOF: Oh this is your mid-life crisis.
AJ (32:03):
And they… not a good thing. I did buy a projector one of my first purchases from
Taobao.OF: And that was a good one?
It's still in the box. I haven't opened it, I don't know.
OF (32:15):
Dude! You are the worst impulse purchaser then. There's an interval between this being
recorded and it going out. So I'll check upon you and see if you’ve actually unwrapped
it by now. OK, what is your favourite WeChatsticker?
AJ (32:29):
The one I send quite often - and I've been known to send it to my friends - is the
‘Happy Friday’ sticker. I don't actuallylook for the sticker, it just comes up when
I write ‘TGIF’. And it's become a thingthat I send a whole bunch of friends, ‘Happy
Friday’.OF: Super cute. It’s so simple, but I've
(32:49):
never seen it before actually. What is yourgo-to song to sing at KTV?
I've never been to KTV. OF
wàiguórén].AJ: Yeah. Aren’t KTVs dodgy?
OF (32:59):
Ah OK, I know what image you have of them. No, it's about singing joyfully, sir.
AJ (33:05):
Oh really? Well, now I'm never gonna get a chance, because my daughters have got microphones
at home…OF: Yes.
…With a speaker system, and they will never let me… They own them. So they want
me to appreciate their singing.OF: Ah.
You know, “Shark doo doo doo doo,” or whatever.
OF (33:25):
Oh that’s gonna be your song. AJ
OK, next one. What other China-related media sources do you rely on?
AJ (33:36):
Sitting and drawing cars all day, I've got a lot of time to listen to things, I can
multitask that. And I started with audiobooks,and I got into podcasting. So I listen to
a hell of a lot of stuff. There's obviouslyMosaic of China now.
OF (33:49):
Ah, thanks god. AJ
to the whole Economist cover-to-cover, andthat has a very, very good China section.
There's the Sinica podcast, which is verygood. BBC News always seems to have something
on China.OF: Yeah.
AJ (34:04):
But for me, The Economist’s China Section, every week you get the best bits.
OF (34:10):
Yeah. AJ, fascinating conversation. Thank you so much.
AJ (34:14):
It's been a great experience being here. OF
probably…AJ: Yeah.
OF (34:19):
The last thing I will ask you is, who would you recommend that I interview for the
next series of Mosaic of China?AJ: I'd recommend somebody who quit his career
and moved into a very creative field, andis prolific in his work, and expressive in
his work, and very successful, a guy calledSiu. And obviously, Shanghai transformed him.
(34:40):
Great. I can't wait to meet Siu. Thank you so much for that. And thank you for your
time today, AJAJ: Brilliant. Thanks a lot.
[Outro]OF: So the biggest update I have to share
is that, after around a decade in China, Ajayand his family have recently said goodbye.
They are now in Mumbai, where Ajay has takenup the position of Head of Advanced Design
(35:04):
at the Indian auto company Mahindra. Whatthat also means is that we are now free to
say that at the time of this interview Ajaywas working at the Chinese car company 吉利
[Jílì], that's spelt Geely when writtenin English. And the company he worked at before
that was SAIC Motor. I'm also relieved toreport that Ajay had found an apartment in
(35:28):
Mumbai, had unpacked his container from Shanghai,and had moved his father up from Bangalore
just before the country went into its mostrecent coronavirus lockdown. So I wish him
- and anyone else listening to this in India- all the very best.
As with the previous 20 episodes of the Season,if you want to hear more from the conversation
(35:50):
with Ajay, there's an extra 15 minutes intoday's PREMIUM version of the show, which
you can subscribe to on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China or on Patreon everywhere else. Head
to https://mosaicofchina.com for instructionson how to subscribe, and here's a little taste
of what you'll get.
[Clip 1]AJ: It’s such a dynamic and changing world
right now, there’s going to be self-drivingcars, self-driving buses…
(36:13):
[Clip 2]AJ: That Focus, I still see it driving around;
I still see it in movies; I see it in America;I see it all over the world, actually.
Yes. [Clip 3]
AJ (36:22):
They don't have 100 years of knowledge, so they make a lot of mistakes, and then there's
a lot of things need fixing. But that alladds to the excitement and the experience.
[Clip 4]AJ: At one point, there were 150 - I believe
- new electric car startups in China.[Clip 5]
It’s going to be very difficult very soon to tell the difference between a European
car or a Chinese car.OF: Yeah.
(36:43):
[Clip 6]AJ: You can change direction, you can change
the course of a country.[End of Audio Clips]
There are some nice connections between Ajayand other episodes of the show. First of all,
the object he chose - the sketchbook - wasthe same object chosen by the journalist Eric
Olander from Season 01 Episode 03. They bothobsessively carry their objects to jot down
(37:03):
ideas, be they in words or in pictures. Ajaysaid that car design sits in between the worlds
of fashion design and architecture. So besure to check out the episodes with the fashion
designer, Octo Cheung from Season 01 Episode30, and the architect Wendy Saunders from
Episode 12 of this Season. When Ajay saidabout the Chinese that "Survival is their
(37:27):
innovation," this is the same as the favouritefact from Gina Li, the innovation CEO from
Season 01 Episode 06. And finally, Ajay'schoice of Shanghai as his favourite destination
in China was the same as Jorge Luzio, themarketer at Coca-Cola from Season 01 Episode
05; and Chang Chihyun, the humanities professorat Shanghai Jiaotong University from Episode
(37:51):
03 of Season 02.
Last but not least, don't forget to checkout the images alongside today's show on social
media, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook,or connect with me on my WeChat ID: mosaicofchina
and I'll add you to a listeners group there.Among a bunch of images, you'll also find
Ajay with his object; his favourite 'HappyFriday' WeChat sticker; and a selection of
(38:15):
him in action, including with the GeometryRange of electric cars that he designed for
Geely.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Thank you as always for listening
- especially if you've made it this far - andwe'll be back again next week.
[Trailer]OF: What are the brands like in China?
AJ (00:04):
There are about 500 brands. OF
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
In today's show, I'm talking with Ajay Jain,who is a senior car designer. This is very
(00:25):
special episode to me, because I grew up ina household of car fanatics. My older brother
Daniel could reel off all the statistics aboutevery car model you could think of, and my
father always kept a stack of the latest carmagazines in the corner of what he called
his 'library,' and what everyone else in thehousehold called 'the downstairs toilet'.
(00:47):
I had absolutely no interest in cars, andwhile I think I always quite enjoyed the scorn
that this elicited, I couldn't help but alsofeel like I was missing out on something.
So today's episode is not just an amazingdiscussion - which encompasses so much about
Ajay, about China, and about the very natureof artistic collaboration in a commercialised
(01:09):
setting - it also feels like some kind ofpersonal redemption for someone whose answer
to the question "What's your favourite car"has always been "Blue ones".
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much, AJ.
OK. OF
What is your actual title?AJ: I am ‘Senior Manager, Head of Strategic
(01:33):
Design’.OF: Got it. In short, you are a car designer.
Yeah. OF
companies here in China. We're not going tomention the company, are we? Because you are
talking in your personal capacity. So we aregoing to make sure that there is a distance
between you and the official word of the company.AJ: Yeah. I believe it's the largest privately-owned
(01:54):
car OEM in China.OF: There you go.
Yeah. OF
in, that in some way describes your life inChina?
It's this little sketchbook. So as a designer, I walk around with a sketchbook all the time.
I have, until very recently, resisted thetemptation of going digital. The one I've
(02:15):
brought here today is actually from my previousemployer. It's a British car company with
a 90-year-anniversary sketchbook. It's thesketchbook I was using between transitioning
from my previous job to my current job. Andat the last few pages, I've just noticed,
I have a few additions by my daughters, withpink fluorescent felt pens. That kind of sums
(02:41):
it up, because my daughters born here in Shanghai,they've lived all their lives here - five
years and three years - contributing to mycreativity here.
OF (02:49):
Oh how lovely. AJ
Well, I'm not sure I would buy the car that she had just tried to draw, it looks
a little bit surreal. But the rest of thedrawings looked very technical.
AJ (02:58):
Oh, you’ve got no vision. OF
I'm doing mine. That is beautiful. And I thinkit's such an amazing insight into what you
do. I mean, as a car designer, is it basicallymainly sketching, is it?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's creation. It's it's coming up with ideas. It's a lot of drawing.
(03:19):
Drawing is the language of car design, especiallywhen you work in different countries with
different languages, different disciplines.You're talking to engineers, you're talking
to marketing people, there's only one quickway of expressing ideas. And I think this
works for almost any creative field.OF: This is where I'm jealous, because I'm
a terrible drawer. I can't sketch to savemy life. No way.
(03:43):
It's like anything. Of course, there are many people who are born with the talent.
And there are others who hone the talent.And it's like anything, with practice you
just get better and better at it. It's a fluencythat comes from practising.
OF (03:58):
Right. And which one are you? AJ
to college in Switzerland. And there, I realisedthat I didn't have talent. But what I did
have was, it was like a boot camp. I mean,literally, first day of college, we had to
draw 500 cubes, 1000 lines, you know. So itwas practice, practice, practice, practice.
(04:20):
And just build fluency.OF: And that was in Switzerland.
AJ (04:22):
Yeah. OF
It's called the ArtCenter College of Design. Its original campus is in Pasadena, in California.
And in the 80s, I think they decided thatthey wanted to create a global footprint of
design colleges, so they created this collegein Switzerland. It is now the private residence,
(04:44):
I believe, of Shania Twain.OF: Oh, you're kidding.
Yeah. It’s a beautiful old Chateau with a farmhouse, overlooking Lake Geneva, looking
overlooking the French Alps.OF: Oh, amazing.
Yeah. OF
think would come up in this conversation.AJ: Yeah.
OF (04:59):
And so, for you, that was your first foray into the specialisation of car design. Or
had you had any experience before?AJ: Yeah, I was 17 and I had just come straight
out of school. So I just knew, this is whatI wanted to do.
You knew since when? AJ
Oh right, you’re one of those guys. AJ
(05:22):
I can remember, and playing with cars. AndI think they’re the most fascinating man-made
object there is.OF: This is where? So where were you growing
up?AJ: I was growing up in India. Teenage years
in Chennai, and early years in Mumbai.OF: OK. Maybe this is a good chance to actually
work out how the hell you got to China. BecauseI'm thinking about your object, and you said
that you were transitioning at that pointfrom a British company before you came to
(05:45):
Shanghai. So what is the whole timeline, then?AJ: At 17, I left India to go study in Switzerland.
I had an internship, 1994, at Opel in Germany,after which I went back to college, finished
my college, graduated in ’95. I moved towork in Cologne in Germany, I was there until
(06:07):
’97.OF: Hang on, what this still Opel? No.
AJ (06:09):
No, this was at Ford. Big American influence in the company and on my colleagues.
OF (06:15):
And this was your first proper job then, right?
AJ (06:17):
This was my first proper job, yeah. OF
Yeah, that was as a car designer. Yeah, I was working on the rearview mirrors of the
Ford Focus, and odds and ends, and door handles.OF: That was one fine rearview mirror. Wow.
AJ, great job. But presumably, because itwas your first job, you already felt like
(06:38):
“Wow, I've made it.” Like “Even thoughit's just this small mirror, I shouldn't complain."
Or..?AJ: There was a moment when I was complaining,
and a 55-year-old engineer came up to me andand told me how lucky I was. Because he thought
he was going to be designing. And by the timehe finished his engineering college, got his
job, and went into an engineering department,he realised it's not the same thing. So that
(07:03):
made me realise it's quite a fortunate positionto be in.
OF (07:06):
Yeah, so even within the company, you had an exalted role.
AJ (07:10):
Yeah, usually in a technical centre, or an engineering centre, there can be over 10,000
engineers, and you know, just a handful - 50-60- designers. They don't have the same education,
or the same expertise as the other engineers.And then I like to say, we've got this superpower,
where we can actually visualise the futureproduct. Everybody else can look at it in
(07:35):
numbers, and spreadsheets, and projections,and charts; engineers can look at them a little
bit at a time. We're the only ones who paintthe full picture, because from the first sketch
to when it gets into production on the road,takes about five years.
OF (07:50):
Oh wow, yeah. AJ
I've got to think is gonna be trendsettingor leading in five years time. And then it
has to sell for another 10 years. So thatmeans it has to be ‘current’ for the next
15 years, yeah? So, you know, you do haveto have a certain amount of ‘futuring’.
By contrast, fashion design is just thinkingabout the next season. So I think it's somewhere
(08:17):
between fashion and architecture. Becausean architect had better get that building
right, for the next 50 to 100 years.OF: Yeah.
AJ (08:23):
Car design is somewhere in between. OF
what happened next?AJ: Yeah, I moved to Daewoo in the UK, and
I lived in Brighton and Hove, which was adifferent experience.
OF (08:35):
How long were you in the UK? AJ
Yeah, the Asian financial crisis happened,Daewoo went bankrupt, so I found this great
opportunity for working at a very iconic brandin Sweden called Saab.
Oh Saab, yep. AJ
And that was where in Sweden? AJ
be a pattern, Saab went bankrupt, and…OF: This is all your fault, AJ.
AJ (09:00):
Yeah, in fact even the college I went to close down now.
OF (09:02):
Yeah, right. AJ
to a place that I used too apply to, almostevery time I was in a crisis and looking for
a job. A dream car design studio, I'd say,which is Renault in France
Renault, OK. AJ
(09:22):
Paris.OF: Nice.
AJ (09:23):
I was at Renault for six years. Two years in France, then they sent me to India for
two years to set up a design studio in Indiaat Renault, and then I came back. And going
there was fantastic.OF: OK. Well, there are so many questions
I could ask. But I guess I'll save that untilwe do Mosaic of France. Let's go to the next
(09:45):
step, was that China then?AJ: Yeah. China is where the car industry
is booming. It's where all the jobs are rightnow, it’s where… there’s so much happening
here. And I had a friend who was coming toShanghai, and I knew that the only car design
jobs were in Shanghai. I applied to my previousemployers - ex-colleagues of mine, they were
(10:06):
at what used to be MG Rover - and it was perfect,a perfect job for me to come here. That was
nine years ago. Most of the time, I work ina very China-dominated environment. In my
last job, there were just a couple of us.And then for a while, it was only me as a
foreigner in a department of about 200 people.And, again, I just find them so optimistic
(10:31):
and enthusiastic, with a nice dash of ambitionand willingness to go the extra mile, and
achieve great things. I would call it maybea hunger.
OF (10:44):
…Which you do get in Europe, but I guess it's a different kind of feeling.
AJ (10:48):
A little more entitlement in Europe. OF
OF (10:51):
You know, everybody points out the ‘Little Emperors’ when they talk about young Chinese
kids, but there's also the side of them reallywanting to prove to their parents that they
are good at doing what they're doing. And,you know, shake off their mollycoddled 'Little
Emperor’ image. Whereas I think most ofthe European young guys would not really listen
(11:18):
to an old guy in the studio, it'd be moreof a competitive way, that tried to show their
superiority and their ambition. Younger Chinesedesigners, they want to learn first, they
want to assimilate the knowledge. When theythink they've learned enough, they start becoming
(11:39):
entitled, or challenging, or competitive.OF: But then they've earned it, right?
AJ (11:43):
They've earned it, for sure. And it's what the Chinese car industry is doing right
now, where they've realised that “We'velearned how to make cars. We've leapfrogged
in terms of technology. We’ve gone intoelectric cars, and we’re probably better
than anyone else before. And we've done itfaster than anyone else, way faster than the
(12:04):
Koreans, and the Japanese before them”.So you see this confidence that's just building,
in just the same way. You see it on the countryscale, and I see it on the personal scale.
OF (12:17):
Yeah. For me, I'm not a car fanatic. So when I see a Chinese car, I don't really pay
attention to it. Like, what are the brandslike in China?
AJ (12:26):
There are about 500 brands. OF
There are about 500 car brands, and all of them are difficult to really know. Many
of them belong to a big conglomerate. You'dthink it's a different brand, but actually
it's part of 东风 [Dōngfēng] Group, orthe the other groups. And every state, every
region, seems to have these big industrialplayers, that are big employers, and they've
(12:50):
got multiple brands. And then there are alsoall these little startups. I don't know this
for a fact, but I can imagine that somebodyup top says “Oh look. We manufacture way
too many cars. But we can't shut those factoriesdown, because a lot of people are dependent
on those jobs, and that's what we use to bringpeople out of poverty into the middle classes.
And now we’ve got to do something else withthose factories”. And somebody says “Yeah,
(13:12):
we’re going to make delivery drones,”or Mars exploratory vehicles, or whatever.
And the fact that they've got their eyeballsin the future is just going to propel this
country further and further.OF: Yeah.
Yeah. OF
I'm sure there are people out there who understandcars more than I do, and they're shouting
(13:36):
“Ask them about the car design!” So here'swhat I'm going to ask you first of all. So
now you're in this current setup, how manypeople are in your design studio? And why
don't you talk me through all the differentpeople who you work with.
So I mean, firstly, no matter how well you know cars, I don't think anybody appreciates
that a car has over 30,000 different piecesto go together.
OF (13:58):
30,000, right. AJ
engineering and mass production.OF: I guess, when you compare it with a piece
of furniture that’s…AJ: Or you compare with a mobile phone as
well, you know, which people consider verysophisticated manufacturing. You take it apart,
and there's not that much that goes in there.And there are a lot of regulations to keep
(14:18):
you alive in a crash, to keep you safe, tokeep you moving. You're moving at 100 kilometres
an hour. And everything that you touch, orfeel, or can see on the car, has been designed
by somebody. So while the dream of car design- or the image of a car designer - is somebody
who's sitting and sketching this beautifulexterior, there's a lot of putting together
(14:40):
little bits and pieces. And in a design studio,we've got designers who design the exterior,
but then you'll have some who are specialisingin lamps and other details. We’re split
up into six different functions. There's peoplewho do the branding, there's people who do
all the communication, all the publicity,the logos, the way we project ourselves beyond
(15:02):
the cars, including the motor shows, the dealerships.Typically the design studio will have some
influence on the dealership, the point ofsale, the colours, even the costumes of the
hostesses.OF: Right. Which is also part of car design,
I guess.AJ: Which is part of car design.
Right. AJ
(15:24):
who do strategy where we look at the planfor the next ten years, look at synergies,
look at different products, look at differentdifferentiation points, try to create a vision
for the future that can then be translatedinto all the other projects. Today, you know,
you've got people who are doing the software;or the interaction; the screen; the Human
Machine Interface, the ‘HMI’. And thenthere's what we call ‘Colour, Materials,
(15:47):
Finish’ designers. So a car is the onlyproduct that's sold in a multitude of different
colours, specifications, we call them ‘trimlevels’, each of them should look homogenous.
You take shoes, for example, you get a pairof adidas trainers, and there's maybe three
or four colour choices on one physical object.You know, Apple did five different colours,
(16:07):
and it's like “Wow, there’s five.”OF: Whoop-de-do.
AJ (16:09):
Yeah. Whereas we’ve probably got 10-15 different permutations, combinations, and
then all those colours and all those finishesneed to work together. And then there's always
special editions, sport editions. Then we'vegot cast modellers, physical clay sculptors,
fabrication specialists who make things outof harder materials. So that level of craft
(16:35):
in there. It’s like a massive factory, I call it the creativity factory.
OF (16:41):
Yeah. AJ
the car outside. Because when you look ata car inside, it's not in its right environment.
So you've got to take it outside to look atit, in reality, in nature, and against other
cars, with natural light. I don't know, Iwould say it's like going to the zoo and looking
at a tiger, or going to the Serengeti andseeing the lions take a hunt or something.
(17:06):
And of course, you're not working in isolation. You have to work with the marketing team,
you have to work with the engineers, right?Like, you have to work out what looks good,
but what is actually possible too, right?AJ: Yeah, unfortunately, we do.
What is a general interaction that you are likely to have with either department?
AJ (17:23):
The marketing department’s a tricky one. Because they know what's selling right
now. They have a lot of data and it gets moreand more. They have a lot of intel, they know
what's successful, they know what's hot. Andvery often that clouds their judgement of
what could be successful in the next fiveyears. So it's really difficult to try and
(17:47):
explain to them that they need to look beyondtoday. We have a hunch, which is all we have
because we don't have their kind of data.And we've seen a trend towards this. So we
got to extrapolate that.OF: So that's with marketing. How about, then,
with the engineers, for example?AJ: Most of the engineers are very, very specialised.
(18:09):
And organisationally, they're also very siloed.I remember in my first job, there was a lady
- she was called ‘Badge Component Engineer’- and she was fighting with the ‘Water Jet
Engineer’, because the badge was interferingwith the water jet on the back of the Ford
Focus. So 30,000 parts, each of them has aspecialisation of engineers who know how they're
(18:34):
made. And then they probably have differentsuppliers for each of these parts, who have
another expertise.OF: Yeah.
So they look really, really, really a small section of what the big picture is.
And they get very fixated on that - focusingon their project, or their car - and they
(18:55):
don't look at the bigger picture of the brand,of the whole lineup of cars, which is really
challenging.OF: Right. It's the interaction between the
idealism - the creativity - of designing;versus the practicality -the cost control
- of the reality of making this car, right?AJ: Yeah. Thank god we have something called
(19:17):
concept cars. And that's when designers canshow a vision of the future, without the constraints.
OF (19:24):
Ah. AJ
as it were. But then you get people lookingat it and saying “Oh, why didn't you make
that car?”OF: Oh.
AJ (19:35):
They just don’t get it. “Why didn't that company make exactly that?”
OF (19:39):
Because of the cost constraints, right? AJ
because of the technology.OF: Right.
AJ (19:44):
So yeah, concept cars are rolling creative ideas. They are the ‘haute couture’ of
fashion.OF: How interesting. Yes,I can see exactly
what you mean, with the parallel between cardesign and fashion design now.
Yeah. OF
where you think “Oh, I can tell exactlywhat went wrong in the process.” Where perhaps
(20:05):
the designer went too far, or perhaps theengineer reined things in. Like, can you see,
on the road, examples of when that's happened?AJ: Oh, I really try not to judge other people's
work. What we should be getting judged by- employed by - is by what we put in to the
(20:26):
job. And we are a little bit of a snobbishindustry, where a designer who's done a lot
of concept cars - without any engineeringconstraints - seems to have a very high profile.
Whereas designers who've been slogging itout - and are actually extremely competent,
and good at their job - don’t seem to havesuch a high profile.
OF (20:49):
Yeah. It’s such a big collaborative effort, right?
AJ (20:52):
Yeah. OF
on the street where you think “Oh, I wishI had designed that one”?
Oh, there are a lot of those. I'll tell you the ones that are even worse to look at,
are the ones that you look at, snd you say“I had that”.
OF (21:09):
Ah. AJ
just done it. And my boss didn't pick it up.And my engineers thought it was too crazy.”
And there have been a few of those. And that'sthe one that you really look at with envy,
and a little bit of regret.OF: Totally. Because it's not like you can
(21:29):
say “Right, screw you, I'm going to go makeit by myself!”
AJ (21:31):
Yeah, I wish. I hope that's where the industry is gonna evolve, with all these new
technologies and…OF: 3D printing at home. AJ: 3D printing,
manufacturing your own cars, open-source manufacturing.You know, I zap you the drawings, and somebody
would make it in somewhere in 天津 [Tiānjīn]or 武汉 [Wǔhàn].
OF (21:47):
Yes. Well, we’re talking about the future, so what are the trends coming down the pipeline
that we should be looking forward to?AJ: It's funny, because two years ago, if
you asked me what I was doing, and I’d said“You know, I'm designing electric cars,”
it was like I'm on the cutting edge of cardesign, beyond maybe designing a Ferrari,
or the craziest concept cars. And it lookslike somehow that bubble’s already burst.
(22:12):
While all the European companies are now gettinginto gear to start making electric cars, China
is going to move into hydrogen and fuel cells.OF: How does that then affect the design work,
for example?AJ: When we moved from a horseless carriage,
the horse disappeared, and then we could designthis area to put the engine in, and then put
the wheels next to the engine, and changethe cabin. And then from that, over 100 years,
(22:37):
the engine cabin’s almost pretty much stayedthe same. And then electric cars come along,
and then you say “Hey, we don't need anengine cabin”. But you've got this great
big battery to worry about. There's also anaesthetic element. You know, when you're designing
a fuel combustion car, you've got things likeexhaust pipes and air vents, to show that
(22:59):
kind of roaring power. And then you get intoyour electric cars, and then you're like “Ooh,
I want it to look like a Dyson vacuum cleaner”.Look efficient, and aerodynamic, and soundless,
and gives up nothing dirty. 15 years ago,my ex boss - and a good friend of mine - had
posted on LinkedIn “What does electricitylook like?” And that's a really interesting
(23:20):
thought, that gets me moving. And I wroteto him the other day, I said "You've got to
start thinking what hydrogen looks like”.OF: Wow
AJ (23:28):
Is it blue? Is it white? OF
down the street in these clouds.AJ: It certainly feels like it, on a scooter
in Shanghai.OF: Yes, because we haven't even talked about
the sounds. Because you have to also designinto the car, like, no rattles, right?
Yeah. Actually, the latest BMW concept, the sound is done by Hans Zimmer of all the
(23:51):
Hollywood movies.OF: Oh.
So all the soundscape, of the noises, of the sound. So there is also this discipline
of sound design, which is just coming intoour industry.
OF (24:03):
Oh wow. AJ
‘bongs’ that you have. Obviously Applephones, or any mobile phones, they've got
this sound universe that also links in withtheir marketing and advertising.
Yes. AJ
kinds of things.OF: Even the little haptics
AJ (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
swim a little bit. There's just too much thatgoes into what you do, I can see now. I get
it. I get it.AJ: Yeah.
OF (24:26):
And what about you, then? I mean, we talked at the beginning about how you've come from
India, to Switzerland, to Sweden, to France,to England, to Germany. It's kind of mind-blowing.
I can sort of see your progression - justhearing your story - I can see it as 1) it's
you chasing adventure; but you're also tryingto run away from becoming redundant in your
(24:46):
own field, right?AJ: Yeah, I mean, the field changes. I mean,
just drawing, we used to draw on a certainkind of paper, that paper stopped. We got
onto drawing on computers, it's a new skillthat I had to learn. So there's all these
technologies that keep throwing stuff at you,and you have to keep up with it.
Yeah. Well, at the beginning of that development, you said “drawing” and “writing” and
(25:10):
"sketching", and I'm looking at your objectstill sitting here in between us on the table.
Maybe it's making me think about my family.My father is an engineer, my brother is an
engineer, my uncle is an engineer. I thinkI'm the only one who's not an engineer. You're
not quite an engineer, but you're as closeas an engineer as I've had in the studio.
So I hope that my father is in some way proudof me for interviewing you.
AJ (25:30):
Oh right. Yeah. I'm sure my father will be proud to hear the interview.
OF (25:35):
There you go. AJ, thank you so much. That was fascinating. We are now going to move
on to Part 2.AJ: Oh right.
[Part 2]OF: All right, the 10 questions.
AJ (25:44):
Yeah. OF
I think so. OF
Yeah. OF
Yeah, this one's interesting, because it's kind of related to India. By India banging
into China, it means all the water flows southand all the rivers flow south. So India has
(26:06):
got plenty of land, and arable land, and rivers,and fertile plains of the Ganges, and what
have you. And they've got the luxury of beingvegetarians, and then living off the land.
Whereas China's got to find arable land. Andonly 2% of the world's arable land is consumed
by 20% of the world's population. So thatmeans the Chinese people are super resourceful,
(26:31):
whether they cut steps into mountains, theyeat different things. And I think that is
also what makes them intrinsically programmedfor innovation. Survival is their innovation.
OF (26:45):
Right. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AJ (26:48):
No, I don't. And if I did, I think my daughters would correct the pronunciation
and the tones. Because they call me the 外国人[Wàiguórén]. So…
OF (26:59):
Yes. Is that something you hear in the office on a regular basis?
AJ (27:02):
Yeah, a lot of my car designer friends are gonna go crazy when they hear this. It’s
a word called 大气 [dàqì]. Literally,every foreigner who comes here to design cars
is told by his boss “I want 大气 [dàqì].”And 大气 [dàqì] is something like ‘prestigious’
or ‘grand’ or ‘premium’ or… Andthis word drives all the car designers absolutely
(27:25):
bonkers. Because a lot of the time， theCEO of the company will say 大气 [dàqì].
“No, this is not 大气 [dàqì] enough,you need to be 大气 [dàqì]”. And it's
like “What is 大气 [dàqì]?” And it'sthis word that doesn't translate. It's a word
that doesn't seem to have any specific meaning.But it's just something where basically, “Your
(27:45):
design’s not good enough for China,” youknow, “It's not good enough for me, and
you’ve got to do better. It's not 大气[dàqì] enough".
OF (27:53):
Your everyday bane of your life is something I've never even heard of. So that just shows
that there are different lives being led herein China.
AJ (28:00):
Yeah. OF
China?AJ: Shanghai. I’ve travelled quite a bit
in China, I’ve moved around all my life,I've lived in many different places. Shanghai
gives me the impression that I'm living ina different city every day. Everything is
just constantly dynamic. The city reinventsitself, as it were. Five years ago, I was
(28:21):
in Pasadena, in the college that I went to,and these kids were drawing what they thought
was the future of transportation. And thenthey asked me how I went to work. And I told
him that I scan a QR code, and get on anybicycle, get on a metro, and get off the metro,
and take my Segway, and then zip into my office.And that sounded more futuristic than some
(28:42):
of the things that they were conceptualising.So…
OF (28:45):
Yeah. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the
least?AJ: I'd miss everything I've just I've just
told you about (28:52):
the dynamism; the reinvention; the excitement; the convenience of everything;
the actual efficiencies of how things, ifthey didn't work today, they are definitely
working tomorrow.OF: And what about anything that you wouldn't
missAJ: ****ing around with my VPN. One of the
biggest conveniences in China is to do withthe internet. And one of the biggest frustrations
(29:16):
in China is to do with the internet.OF: Yeah.
AJ (29:18):
It’s… yeah. OF
Yeah, it’s the Chinese experience, you can't have both ways. You can't have only
the convenience without some of the frustration.And currently they blocked WeChat in India.
So now, people keep trying to contact me throughWhatsApp. You know, I've got to fiddle around
and try to get online, and they're tryingto call me, and messaging me, wondering why
(29:40):
I'm not responding to the messages.OF: Yes, it is an interesting window into
a potential future, right?AJ: Yeah.
OF (29:48):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
AJ (29:52):
I just came back from from Beijing Motor Show. And do you know, this new cult of journalists
are all people with rigs around themselves,holding cameras, and filming themselves next
to cars. They're like girls dressed up forKTV, or a nightclub. They could be selling
(30:13):
cosmetics, you know. I wonder, are they scripted?What do they say? You know, so it just…
Everything, in every respect, felt out ofcontext with the rest of the world?
OF (30:23):
Yeah. That’s interesting, because that really is how the world treats the car that
you've spent five years pushing through. Like,isn't that weird, when you finally see your
baby come onto the market?AJ: It is weird. In fact, it's like being
a parent. You hope you did the best job youcould. Your kids are never going to turn out
exactly how you wanted them to. You stillhave a certain amount of pride, and a certain
(30:48):
amount of misgivings and regrets.OF: How funny.
AJ (30:52):
So yeah, it's all of that, every few years. OF
as a metaphor. But it really is!AJ: But yeah, no. It's your child. It's your
baby.OF: Wow. Where is your favourite place to
go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?AJ: This one is a question I've thought about
a lot, because it depends when you ask methis. You know, there was a time I used to
(31:15):
love Unico, I used to love 永康路 [YǒngkāngLù], we used to go to Sugar before that.
So right now, the nicest place for us to hangout is right opposite our house, less than
100 metres away, there's a little place calledPorcellino. I'm sure next week it'll be something
else. It’ll be another place.OF: What is the best or worst purchase you
(31:35):
have made in China?AJ: Every time I buy something on Taobao,
it's the worst thing you can buy. Impulsebuying things, you look at the picture, you
don't know what you bought. At one point oftime, I decided I'm going to quit smoking.
So I ended up buying mahogany e-pipes thatlooked like Sherlock Holmes.
OF (31:55):
Oh an actual pipe? AJ
pipes, but were e-pipesOF: Oh this is your mid-life crisis.
AJ (32:03):
And they… not a good thing. I did buy a projector one of my first purchases from
Taobao.OF: And that was a good one?
It's still in the box. I haven't opened it, I don't know.
OF (32:15):
Dude! You are the worst impulse purchaser then. There's an interval between this being
recorded and it going out. So I'll check upon you and see if you’ve actually unwrapped
it by now. OK, what is your favourite WeChatsticker?
AJ (32:29):
The one I send quite often - and I've been known to send it to my friends - is the
‘Happy Friday’ sticker. I don't actuallylook for the sticker, it just comes up when
I write ‘TGIF’. And it's become a thingthat I send a whole bunch of friends, ‘Happy
Friday’.OF: Super cute. It’s so simple, but I've
(32:49):
never seen it before actually. What is yourgo-to song to sing at KTV?
I've never been to KTV. OF
wàiguórén].AJ: Yeah. Aren’t KTVs dodgy?
OF (32:59):
Ah OK, I know what image you have of them. No, it's about singing joyfully, sir.
AJ (33:05):
Oh really? Well, now I'm never gonna get a chance, because my daughters have got microphones
at home…OF: Yes.
…With a speaker system, and they will never let me… They own them. So they want
me to appreciate their singing.OF: Ah.
You know, “Shark doo doo doo doo,” or whatever.
OF (33:25):
Oh that’s gonna be your song. AJ
OK, next one. What other China-related media sources do you rely on?
AJ (33:36):
Sitting and drawing cars all day, I've got a lot of time to listen to things, I can
multitask that. And I started with audiobooks,and I got into podcasting. So I listen to
a hell of a lot of stuff. There's obviouslyMosaic of China now.
OF (33:49):
Ah, thanks god. AJ
to the whole Economist cover-to-cover, andthat has a very, very good China section.
There's the Sinica podcast, which is verygood. BBC News always seems to have something
on China.OF: Yeah.
AJ (34:04):
But for me, The Economist’s China Section, every week you get the best bits.
OF (34:10):
Yeah. AJ, fascinating conversation. Thank you so much.
AJ (34:14):
It's been a great experience being here. OF
probably…AJ: Yeah.
OF (34:19):
The last thing I will ask you is, who would you recommend that I interview for the
next series of Mosaic of China?AJ: I'd recommend somebody who quit his career
and moved into a very creative field, andis prolific in his work, and expressive in
his work, and very successful, a guy calledSiu. And obviously, Shanghai transformed him.
(34:40):
Great. I can't wait to meet Siu. Thank you so much for that. And thank you for your
time today, AJAJ: Brilliant. Thanks a lot.
[Outro]OF: So the biggest update I have to share
is that, after around a decade in China, Ajayand his family have recently said goodbye.
They are now in Mumbai, where Ajay has takenup the position of Head of Advanced Design
(35:04):
at the Indian auto company Mahindra. Whatthat also means is that we are now free to
say that at the time of this interview Ajaywas working at the Chinese car company 吉利
[Jílì], that's spelt Geely when writtenin English. And the company he worked at before
that was SAIC Motor. I'm also relieved toreport that Ajay had found an apartment in
(35:28):
Mumbai, had unpacked his container from Shanghai,and had moved his father up from Bangalore
just before the country went into its mostrecent coronavirus lockdown. So I wish him
- and anyone else listening to this in India- all the very best.
As with the previous 20 episodes of the Season,if you want to hear more from the conversation
(35:50):
with Ajay, there's an extra 15 minutes intoday's PREMIUM version of the show, which
you can subscribe to on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China or on Patreon everywhere else. Head
to https://mosaicofchina.com for instructionson how to subscribe, and here's a little taste
of what you'll get.
[Clip 1]AJ: It’s such a dynamic and changing world
right now, there’s going to be self-drivingcars, self-driving buses…
(36:13):
[Clip 2]AJ: That Focus, I still see it driving around;
I still see it in movies; I see it in America;I see it all over the world, actually.
Yes. [Clip 3]
AJ (36:22):
They don't have 100 years of knowledge, so they make a lot of mistakes, and then there's
a lot of things need fixing. But that alladds to the excitement and the experience.
[Clip 4]AJ: At one point, there were 150 - I believe
- new electric car startups in China.[Clip 5]
It’s going to be very difficult very soon to tell the difference between a European
car or a Chinese car.OF: Yeah.
(36:43):
[Clip 6]AJ: You can change direction, you can change
the course of a country.[End of Audio Clips]
There are some nice connections between Ajayand other episodes of the show. First of all,
the object he chose - the sketchbook - wasthe same object chosen by the journalist Eric
Olander from Season 01 Episode 03. They bothobsessively carry their objects to jot down
(37:03):
ideas, be they in words or in pictures. Ajaysaid that car design sits in between the worlds
of fashion design and architecture. So besure to check out the episodes with the fashion
designer, Octo Cheung from Season 01 Episode30, and the architect Wendy Saunders from
Episode 12 of this Season. When Ajay saidabout the Chinese that "Survival is their
(37:27):
innovation," this is the same as the favouritefact from Gina Li, the innovation CEO from
Season 01 Episode 06. And finally, Ajay'schoice of Shanghai as his favourite destination
in China was the same as Jorge Luzio, themarketer at Coca-Cola from Season 01 Episode
05; and Chang Chihyun, the humanities professorat Shanghai Jiaotong University from Episode
(37:51):
03 of Season 02.
Last but not least, don't forget to checkout the images alongside today's show on social
media, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook,or connect with me on my WeChat ID: mosaicofchina
and I'll add you to a listeners group there.Among a bunch of images, you'll also find
Ajay with his object; his favourite 'HappyFriday' WeChat sticker; and a selection of
(38:15):
him in action, including with the GeometryRange of electric cars that he designed for
Geely.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Thank you as always for listening
- especially if you've made it this far - andwe'll be back again next week.
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