August 26, 2019 • 43 mins
My guest this week is Eric Olander, who has been a journalist in China off and on since 1989. His most recent incarnation has been with the China Africa Project, in which he reports on China’s huge and growing influence across that continent. And through that lens, Eric can talk eloquently and knowledgably about many aspects of journalism today, including issues of bias; censorship; his relationship with the public online; the relationship between officials and the online media; and the way in which China's soft power is being felt in places like Africa and beyond. Since Eric has so many interesting things to say, it was very difficult to keep the interview short. So apologies for going a bit long on this episode, I hope you'll agree it was worth the few extra minutes. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:22 - Part 1 26:08 - Part 2 40:47 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]EO: I… I'll
(00:04):
say American Pie. “My, my, Miss American PieOF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?
EO (00:13):
I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people whoare making their mark in China. When all of
their stories are pieced together, they forma Mosaic of China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Firstly, in case you haven’t already, please dojoin the groups on Facebook at @mosaicofchina and
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Instagram at @mosaicofchina_. And forWeChat, please send me a note directly
on my ID (00:41):
mosaicofchina and I’ll you to that group myself. Thanks to everyone who
commented on all the photos that I postedfrom last week’s interview with Maple. The
photo of the beautiful lake in Tibet seemsto have got the most attention. And I did
hear from many of you that I forgot to explain相声 [Xiàngsheng] in my outro. Sorry about that,
I totally missed it out. Maple brought itup, it’s sometimes translated as ‘crosstalk’,
(01:05):
in which usually two performers act outa dialogue between them, and it’s full of
comedic puns in Chinese. It reminds me a littlebit of 落語 [rakugo] in Japanese. Because somehow
I always need to talk about Japan in thisChina podcast. Anyway, both those art forms
are similar to Western stand-up comedy, but asMaple pointed out, they’re not personal, they’re
(01:27):
heavily scripted and rehearsed, and most of thecomedy just comes from wordplay, nothing else.
Anyway, today’s episode is with Eric Olander.Eric has been a journalist in China off and on
since 1989. His most recent incarnationhas been with the China Africa Project,
which he explains early in the podcast. But you’llquite quickly hear afterwards that his knowledge
(01:49):
goes way beyond this niche area. He talks veryeloquently about journalism issues in general,
such as bias, censorship, his relationship withthe public online, and the relationship between
officials and the online media, includingthe way in which China’s soft power is being
felt in places like Africa and beyond. SinceEric has so many interesting things to say,
(02:12):
it was very difficult to keep the interviewshort. So apologies for going a bit long on
this episode, I hope you’ll agree thatit was worth the few extra minutes.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you so much,
Eric. I know it's a busy time, so I appreciateyour time today. Eric is the co-founder of the
China Africa project. And you've been inChina now, on and off, for how many years?
EO (02:33):
Since 1989. I started studying Chinese in 1985, long before most of your audience was even
born. Long before Chinese was cool and hip. Youknow, there were no skinny white people walking
through the French Concession back when I washere the first time. It was rough and tumble,
there's no doubt about it. And so for me, thejourney from the 1980s till today has been just…
(02:59):
You know, I feel like it's been an honour anda privilege for me to have the opportunity of
seeing this. This journey that they've goneon, from being one of the poorest countries
in the world in the 80s, to now being the secondlargest economy in the world, is remarkable. And
when you you see that trajectory… I walk aroundShanghai and Beijing just mouth agape all the
(03:20):
time going “I remember when this was nothing".OF: Well, before we go too far down that road,
what is the object that you've bought today?EO: So my object is my moleskin book.
OF (03:30):
Right. EO
it doesn't have to be a branded book. Butit's a notepad. And for me as a recovering
journalist and still a journalist, but also assomeone who is hopelessly neurotic with lists,
it's how I organise and structure my life, it'show I keep things going forwards, how I keep my
head clear. I find that even in this digital world- and I'm extraordinarily digitally oriented,
(03:54):
I am connected to everything - being analogueis to me far more effective in many ways,
in terms of getting ideas out of my brain andinto the real world. They go on paper first,
oftentimes. And lists and things likethat. So my object is that notebook,
and you will almost never see me without it.OF: And this is what iteration of this book,
(04:17):
how many of these books do you have at home now?EO: Hundreds now. Because this is something that I
actually started way back as a teenager, making myto-do lists for the next day before I go to bed.
That was a habit I picked up. It was a habitthat was not taught. I just started doing it.
And there's something nice about actually physically crossing it out
with your pen when you've done it, right?EO: Yes, exactly. And there's something
(04:40):
therapeutic about writing itout. Now I have Evernote online,
and I do a lot of that task and list basedstuff on Evernote. But it's different than
writing with a pen. And I don't use justnormal pens. I use fountain pens. I mean,
really old school. But those cheap fountainpens that European students use in school.
But it is part of this kind of aesthetic of beingconnected to the old and the new, the analogue in
(05:02):
the digital. And I think both are important.OF: Well, that's great. And tell me,
how does this pad then relate to whatyou do, on a day to day basis today?
EO (05:10):
So now, you've caught me at a really exciting time in my life, because I'm finishing up here in
China with WPP advertising where I was working.I mean really, when you work here in advertising
and marketing, it is at the highest level. I mean,there is no bigger stage than China today. I mean,
New York is definitely a big stage. But prettymuch New York and Shanghai are as big as it gets.
(05:31):
So it's been just an amazing two years, just awonderful opportunity. It came to an end sooner
than I had planned. But that is life, right? Andso confronted with what to do next, I started to
go down the normal path and started talking topeople about jobs. And people were looking at
me in a very odd way. They said “What is somebodywith 1.2 million followers coming and looking for
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a normal job?” When people with 1,000 followersall think they're going to be the next KOL star.
And so I was guided, through the universe talkingto me saying “Go out into the world and see if you
can leverage this platform to do exciting thingswith it.” So now this notepad is filled with new
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designs for websites, new business strategiesfor email newsletters. And together with my
partner in South Africa - Cobus van Staden, whoI launched the China Africa Project with 10 years
ago - we’re launching a new premium service ofdaily emails, working with writers in China,
in Africa, and around the world to contributereally amazing content. And if this is a space
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that's interesting for you, and you need it foryour work or to better understand the world, what
we're going to be doing is absolutely essential.OF: Well, great. Tell me then,
what is the China Africa project?EO: So the China Africa Project is
an independent, non-partisan multimedia website.We are entirely self-funded. This was a passion
project of ours for the past 10 years. And we justwere interested in it. My background is in China,
(07:03):
but I moved to Africa in the mid 2000s. AndI saw the rise of the Chinese in Africa in a
dramatic fashion. In the mid 2000s when I went,there was virtually no Chinese presence. And by
2007,2008,2009, it just went boom. And what I wasseeing out there was these narratives in Western
media - from the UK, and from the United States,predominantly - of ‘China's colonising Africa,
(07:26):
China's taking over Africa’. And then I wouldask my friends, employees and colleagues on
the ground in Kinshasa, where I was living atthe time. I said “What do you think?” And they
gave me these very complex, nuanced, textured,answers. And I thought ‘That's the story’. And
the Western narrative, which still is prevalenttoday about China, is that China is a very,
very provocative issue for people on theoutside. It's either good or it's bad,
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and for the most part - 90 some odd percent of thecoverage of China - it’s cynical or negative. Not
all of it. I mean, there's good reasons for that.So I don't actually want to get into that. But I
just was seeing a very, very complicated storythat wasn't being reflected. And that's where I
decided I'm going to start writing, blogging, andeventually podcasting. And Cobus joined me for
(08:10):
the journey. So we explore every facet of Chineseengagement in Africa: social, political, cultural,
economic. Doesn’t matter, if it's related, wedo it. And we've built up a large audience,
because people seem to really value theimpartiality that we bring. We’re not
advocating for a company, a culture, or a country.And that's really, really important. Even though
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he's South African, and I'm American,we're both white guys, we really, really
are passionate about taking that middle ground.OF: And tell me, there are so many topics that
you you approach Africa from. From the politicsside, from the economy, from the culture. Give
us a few examples of what you've seen in terms ofthe Chinese impact and the Chinese influence. And
I guess, just any Chinese stories in Africa.EO: Yeah, so we could spend the next two hours
(08:57):
of this podcast - we wouldn't bore your listenerswith that - and I could sit here and tell you that
China is the best thing that's ever happenedto Africa. It has brought infrastructure,
it's brought telecommunications, it'sbrought trade. And what it's done is,
it's liberated Africa, from being dependentexclusively on Western colonial powers,
which was a story that has been a hangover for thepast 50-60 years since the end of colonisation.
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And China brought choice to Africans, that theydidn't have to take what France was saying,
or what the British were saying, or what theAmericans were saying. And they could have those
options. That's very, very powerful.OF: Even when they were being quite
benevolent, there just was no choice.EO: There was just no choice. Now there's a
choice. And choice is a really empowering thing.And it gives agency and it gives confidence.
(09:41):
And it's really very, very important. But I couldalso sit here, and I can tell you that China's the
worst thing that's ever happened to Africa. Andeverything that I would say would be 100% true.
Just like with everything that's great aboutit would be true, everything that's bad about
it would be true. The mechanisation of resourceextraction is on a level that the French and the
Belgians could have never dreamed of. The arrivalof Chinese vendors is both a blessing and a curse.
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If you are a producer, you now have to match theChina price. The same problem that we're facing
in the US and Europe is confronting Africans. Ifyou're a consumer, you love it. Because you have
competition in the marketplace. They're breakingthe stranglehold of local producers who, for
decades, choked off competition. Now the Chinesecome in and said “We'll sell that pot, that pan,
whatever it is, at a fraction of the price”.That's great for consumers. So there are benefits
(10:31):
on all sides. The thing that I walk away withfrom this relationship is, if you hear anybody
say it's either good or bad, they're missing abig part of the story. Because it's both/and.
OF (10:41):
Well, I see now you have your own podcast on this topic.
EO (10:46):
Again, I could talk for two hours, and I won't bore your audience with that. But still 10 years
later, it's still something that fascinates me.OF: Well, it is fascinating, especially with
how you've positioned yourself as being in themiddle. And I guess that leads me to ask you,
how do you go about interviewingofficialdom? Not just in China,
(11:06):
but on both sides of this equation?EO: And it's even beyond officialdom.
Because I’m coming at this as a white, American,male. And race and gender and identity are really
important in this, because those are issuesthat affect the storytelling, and affect the
perceptions of how stories are told. And I haveto be very, very conscious of my privilege,
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I'm conscious of my status, I'm conscious ofwho I am. And my goal is to step back in the
process. My goal is not to make me the centre ofanything. My goal is to make the people that we
interview the future. And the voices that we'rebringing up into the podcast and on the website
and into the circle of this discussion. They arethe ones that we really want to bring out. And
so I don't have a confrontational style in myinterview method. I have a style where I really
(11:54):
want to try and allow you to speak. Now thatpleases some people. And other people say “Well,
you should have been much tougher onthis Huawei spokesman, or this government
spokesman. And because you did not ask thosegotcha questions, you are therefore revealing
your biases”. And that's very interesting,because in these very hyper-partisan times,
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people will take one show or one tweet or onepiece of comment, and then they will extrapolate
that across your whole professional background.And I resist that. And this is the beauty of the
fact that I don't depend on anybody for anything.This is self-funded and we do this because we
love it. So some people are happy, and somepeople are not. But because we are independent,
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we just keep doing what we think is right. Andwhat we think is right is to stay in the middle,
to not take a side, to really be impartial, andto bring as many voices as possible to the debate.
OF (12:50):
You hit upon something which made me think. Something I heard recently on the news was,
there was an argument that all news organisationsshould be decoupled from the commercial angle,
just like what you've described. And thatactually, media organisations - be it TV shows,
be it magazines, newspapers - they actually allshould be like non-governmental organisations,
charities almost. Do you see now with allof this’ fake news’ nonsense - all of this
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partisan politics coming into what should bevery nonpartisan mediums - do you see that
there's a solution, apart from people like you?EO: No. I used to run the largest business news
channel in Vietnam, I was the first foreigner toever run a news organisation in Vietnam. And the
first response that you get from people who comeand visit, they say “Wow, the censorship must be
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terrible”. And in Vietnam, just like in China,there is political censorship on content. And I
say to them - and they always get very surprised- that I have spent now 25 years working at CNN,
AP, BBC, France 24, all over the world in mostof the world's major media organisations. And in
every case, I've encountered censorship. I'veencountered censorship in the United States
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where it's predominantly corporate censorship. Soit's commercial. That is, at CNN we never covered
critical stories of our main advertisers. Youdon't bite the hand that feeds you. So the tobacco
industry, when I was there in the mid 90s, wasunder massive scrutiny. CNN stayed away from that
story. Only until Congress started to investigateit did CNN go in. Why? Because RJ Reynolds,
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which was a big consumer product company, did alot of business with Turner Broadcasting. They
did not want to jeopardise those advertisingrelationships. You will never see a local TV
station in the United States do an investigationon used car sales. Because used cars are a massive
advertiser. It's just the nature of the way itis. In France when I was the Editor in Chief of
France 24, the censorship and the bias therewas cultural. So they will cover Francophone
(14:46):
African countries at the expense of AnglophoneAfrican countries. Day to day decisions are made
based on linguistic and cultural leanings of acountry. I was in editorial meetings where we
had decisions about “Do we send crews to Zambia,or to Cameroon?” And I lost the discussion sending
crews to Zambia. And then afterwards, they say“Well, of course, because Cameron's a Francophone
(15:08):
country.” That's a form of censorship in myworld. Government-run media, Voice of America,
you know, they're not independent either. Sothe point is that after a career of working
in these news organisations, I have yet to findone that is impartial. And this fantastical idea
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that non-governmental organisations are somehowimpartial too is just offensive and ridiculous
too. They are actors in the political space likeanybody else. And I think that one of the things
that I've noticed after covering Africa forso long, and covering South Asia and whatnot,
is that we give NGOs a pass, as if they’re somekind of saints. They’re out there raising money,
(15:51):
they have agendas and whatnot, we need totreat them like we treat any other actor
in the space. They are not immune from thesebiases, and from being misled or whatever. They
do good work. But who cares? They are actorswith agendas, we need to treat them as such.
And so you touched upon there, when you had people giving you a hard time for not
(16:13):
asking the right question, that one exampleyou gave. It made me think about actually how
you now manage the news landscape in this day ofimmediate feedback on social media. Give me your
‘every day’ about how you manage social media.EO: There are two things that I do. If they
are respectful, I will engage them. I don'twant people who just agree with me. In fact,
(16:38):
I live for the discussions, and for people who areon different sides. And my goal is not necessarily
to persuade you. That is not my goal, for me tobe right and for you to be wrong. My goal is to
present facts and evidence and reason behind whyI think it's this way. And then you can decide for
yourself whether or not you agree. And at the endof this discussion, if there is civility in it,
(17:00):
and it's like, “I enjoyed that" then it'sgreat. As soon as the F-bombs, S-bombs,
as soon as anything comes out, you automaticallyget muted in my world. And it's just, you're gone.
I disengage, I don't pay any attention. I havetoo many people to talk to, and to engage with,
that I just don't waste my time with that. Andit's not serious. And also, this has to be fun
and enjoyable. And when people start hurlingthose kind of personal missives your way, it's
(17:25):
not fun and pleasant. It hurts when people say “You're a bad interviewer” or “You're a bad this”,
but that's OK, that's good. Because Ilike the fact that they're listening in,
they're engaged. Fortunately I don't get toomuch of that negativity, but it does come up.
And I just classified as, if it's civil and ifit's relevant, then it's OK. If it's uncivil,
(17:47):
and it's not relevant, then it's veryeasy on social media just to go “Boop,
you're muted”. And I don't see that anymore.OF: And I guess, because it’s an English language
podcast, you're going to get lots of Englishlanguage comments. Do you get some Chinese people
who are commenting? Do they have a differentquality or different timbre to their comments?
EO (18:05):
Yeah they do. In terms of how the Chinese interact with the outside world, it's very,
very interesting. And I don't actually think theChinese in this sense are that much different
to the average American. The average American'sawareness of the outside world is actually quite
low as well, for different reasons. In the UnitedStates, people have access to the information;
people here simply don't have access. So Ifind that when I have a discussion with a
(18:30):
Chinese person about US-China relations orChina-Africa relations, oftentimes they're
coming to that discussion with about 20% of theinformation that we have available. They just
have not been exposed to the level of detail thatwe have, and to the complexity of the narrative
that we have. So there's a lot of confusion. Andit's one of the reasons why Chinese stakeholders
will often go from zero to pissed off very, veryfast. Because they don't have the data tools to
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respond to these types of arguments. And we’llstart saying “Well, what about this? What about
that? What about this?” And they can't respond, sothen it ends up oftentimes leading to “OK, well,
then… you just don't like China”. And that happensa lot. I don't think that's a productive outcome
of a conversation. Which is one of the reasons whypeople who have lived here for a long time - and
(19:17):
know the information ecosystem that they'reworking within - have an ability to navigate that,
to try and extract out more. Rather than peoplewho have just come off the boat, they start
peppering the Chinese with questions, andthey run into that wall very, very quickly.
OF (19:32):
So as an extension to that, is there a certain way that you would ask questions to
a Chinese official that you perhaps wouldn'tdo to others? Or is it basically the same?
EO (19:41):
Well, first and foremost, Chinese officials don't engage with foreign media. It just doesn't
happen. It used to be that Chinese scholars andthink tanks would engage with foreign media, but
now that's been cut off too. There is no incentivewhatsoever for a Chinese scholar to talk to me,
or to talk to a journalist. Unlike in the UnitedStates or in the West, where oftentimes scholars
(20:04):
want to become more famous and well-known, andthat drives speaking and drives a lot of different
things that are in their benefit. Here, it'sonly lose/lose for them. If they say something
that is wrong and out of line with what the partyline is, their careers could be over. I'm very,
very sympathetic to the individual who has tomake that decision. Because at the end of the day,
(20:25):
he or she has a family to feed, has a career toadvance, and I understand that. I'm disappointed
though, because the Chinese voice is oftenmissing from the discussion. So it's one of
the reasons why the Chinese get such bad pressaround the world. It’s simply that they don't
participate in the discussion.OF: Now, I thought though,
the Chinese were starting to recognise this, andstarting to work out “Yes, we need to work on our
(20:48):
soft power approach, not just our hard powerapproach”. It sounds, from what you're saying,
that they're taking a step back from that now.EO: No. Soft power is a very complicated thing.
It's manifested in many, many differentways. However, there are new forms of
soft power that are coming out. So when youtalk to young Africans, 16/17/18 year olds,
you say “What do you think of China?” And theypull out their Huawei phone, or they talk about
(21:12):
Boomplay which is the Spotify for Africa, or theytalk about StarTimes which is the pay TV service,
these are all Chinese brands. And their world isshaped by technology, by gadgets, by the content
that comes through those channels. And a lotof that is Chinese. Musical.ly, for example,
is a Chinese brand from ByteDance, it's in theUnited States. Now people don't necessarily know
(21:34):
that that's a Chinese thing. But there’s startingto be some awareness now - particularly with TECNO
which is the largest phone company in Africa- that these are Chinese brands and they’ve
brought high quality products at a low price, andhave been able to to connect hundreds of millions
of people that will once not connected. That is aform of soft power. The other very quick thing on
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soft power, we in the West discount infrastructureas power. We take for granted that there's a
road in our neighbourhood, we take for grantedthat there's a bridge, a hospital, an airport,
whatever. In the United States, less and less.I mean, our infrastructure sucks. But in Europe
it’s great infrastructure. But when Africans comeover to Shanghai, and they see what's been built
(22:18):
here in their lifetimes, that is inspiring, it'smotivating. And it's very, very powerful. People
are impressed. They don’t do that with the UnitedStates, or France or Spain, because they've had it
for a long time. This is 35-40 years old. Theysay “If the Chinese were as poor as we were in
(22:39):
my lifetime, and they did it, it can be done.”It's an inspirational story. So that's another
form of soft power that people don't think of.OF: So we’ve come to the end of the first part of
this conversation, but I guess my last questionwould be a crazy one, which I don't know how
you're going to answer. But what would you predictabout what's gonna happen in Africa in the next
(22:59):
5-10 years when it comes to Chinese influence?EO: So Africa is staring down the barrel of a
gun. And it's interesting, because it’s a similargun that the Chinese are staring down, the same
barrel. And it's the demographic barrel. Chinahere is staring down the idea that in 10-15 years,
(23:21):
their old population is going to crush theiryoung population. And you know, there's the
saying that ‘China is going to get old before itgets rich’. Now, Africa is the opposite problem.
Africa is a traditional pyramid. It's a continentof 21 year olds, 22 year olds, 23 year olds. Well,
(23:42):
what do 23 year olds do? They get busy and theyhave babies. So they’re, around the next 10 years,
facing down a surging population of 300million new mouths to feed. And they have
to industrialise, and employ, and really createsocieties that are engaging for these young people
that are coming up. This huge population. Africais going to face the brunt of climate change,
(24:05):
disproportionately. Already it is. South Africawas on the verge of running out of water. Not just
Cape Town, but the entire country. The deserts arespreading faster in Africa than they are anywhere
else. The extremes in heat. Climate change isgoing to wreak havoc in many parts of Africa.
So that's another reason why this infrastructurehas to be built as a buffer against the changing
(24:30):
climate. So both are racing against time, but fordifferent reasons. And it’s one of the reasons why
a lot of African leaders have turned to theChinese for loans, and for infrastructure,
and for support. Because no-one else is liningup to give them this money. The West will talk a
great game about human rights, and “don't takethe Chinese money,” and debt sustainability,
(24:53):
and all of this. But they're not willing to buildthe ports, the roads, the freeways, the highways,
the hospitals, the special economic zones.And so again, we can hear from the West all
of those pleasantries, but at the end of theday, they're not lining up to give the money,
the Chinese are. So I think that this is a veryimportant calculated risk that African leaders
(25:14):
are making now. It's a gamble. It's a risk. Butbecause they've got that population bulge that
is coming, they’ve got to do something about it.OF: Very good. And I'm very conscious that I'm
saying ‘Africa’ as a huge generalisation, I mean…EO: 55 countries.
OF (25:27):
I know, I mean it’s terrible. EO
from Cairo to Cape Town and everything inbetween. The diversity. And by the way,
the same applies to China. You know, I alwayssay that this is not a single country, this is
1,000 countries. And they say ‘it's a civilizationposing as a country’ and I think there's a lot of
truth to that. So the diversity in this countryis also misleading in many respects. And this is
(25:52):
not a single actor, when we're talking about theChinese. Chinese provinces are engaging in Africa,
Chinese government, Chinese corporations, Chinesestate-owned enterprises, migrants. It’s happening
on so many different levels. So I think again,these are shorthand words for very complex ideas.
[Part 2]OF: Let's jump into Part 2.
EO (26:11):
Oh-Oh. The lightning round. OF
answer as quickly as you can, or you can takeyour time. It's up to you. So Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?EO: $24 billion - $1 billion every hour - sold
by Tmall and Alibaba on November11, in that sale. Think about it,
(26:32):
24. And I think last year was like 26 billion,
more than $1 billion an hour. Incredible.OF: So just to explain, that’s November 11th
every year. Explain what happens in China.EO: So what they do is, they created this
anti-Valentine’s Day. So it was it was Singles Dayand they picked November 11, because it's sticks,
you know, representing single people. And Alibaba,the world's largest e-commerce company, started
(26:56):
just discounting products. And they created thisphenomenal type of culture around selling. And
so everybody, all the brands line up, the wholecountry, it becomes like a national holiday. So
basically take Black Friday, Black Monday, CyberMonday, all of those kind of sales and put it on
steroids. And this is compacted into just one24-hour period, they're selling more in volume
(27:20):
than all of the Christmas holiday shopping seasonin the United States. It's remarkable. 24 billion,
and it just keeps going up every year.OF: Amazing. Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?EO: In Chinese, they have these things
called 成语 [chéngyǔ]. If you are a highly educatedChinese person - and maybe even kind of middle,
(27:43):
but an educated person - you will speak inthese idioms and these phrases. And Chinese is
a beautiful language for that, because it can meanso many different things. And you can get a very
complex idea into just 2-4 characters, normally 4characters. So they have one called 养儿防老 [yǎnger
fánglǎo], which means that the young, when yougrow up, you are taking care of your parents.
(28:03):
And so the son, it's a male responsibility.So when you're an older man, taking care
of your elderly parents, you say 养儿防老 [yǎngerfánglǎo]. Ot's the filial piety type of part of
the culture. And I just absolutely love how inthis culture, elderly people are cared for and
(28:25):
looked after and valued. And in my culture, forthe most part, older people oftentimes are not.
OF (28:30):
Well said. What’s your favourite destination within China?
EO (28:35):
I spend most of my time in the tier one cities Beijing, Shanghai, 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].
But just like where you come from, and just likewhere I come from, the heart of the country is
not in these tier one cities. The heart of thecountry in the countryside. So I was just in 贵州
[Guìzhōu] which is in the south, which is one ofthe more poor provinces, I was in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng]
(28:57):
a few years ago, in 甘肃 [Gānsù]… I've been toabout 15 different provinces. And so for me,
it's going out into the countryside, and it'sjust the simplicity of it, you roll back 4-500
years when you go into the countryside. You'restill seeing oxes. And electrification hasn't
reached everywhere. It's much better thanit was. But the standard of living is very,
(29:18):
very different. The way that they do things, thetiered farming, the mountains are all tiered.
I mean, these go back centuries, and how they dothings in those techniques. And you realise again,
just the scope and scale of how big China is, andhow complex it is, as soon as you go out. And by
the way, you only have to leave Shanghai an houror two outside and you've gone back centuries.
OF (29:38):
Right. EO
specific place, just not being in the big cities.OF: If you left China, what would you miss the
most, and what would you miss the least?EO: I never leave China. I've been involved
in China since I was 15 yearsold. I've been coming since I
was 18 or 19. So in this particular case, Iam actually physically leaving the country,
(29:58):
but I'm never leaving. I am always connected toit through my work. And I will be back. So for me,
it's a ‘see you later’. The thing thatI miss the most is the pace. Everywhere
else feels slow compared to Beijing andShanghai. And just that amazing energy
that people have is just unbelievable.OF: And that's specifically Shanghai
(30:22):
compared to other cities too, right?EO: It is specifically Shanghai.
Yeah. EO
at this pace. Some of the big cities run at thispace. There’s a China speed, there is definitely a
China's speed. I am wired for that. And maybe I'vebeen raised in it. But I go back to New York or
London - or some other places that are presumablyfast - and they feel very slow. So I love that and
(30:43):
it's just… it's kinetic. It's energising. Youget going, and out you go. Seven days a week,
the Sundays here are as busy as the Mondays. And Ilove that. What I don't like - and with everything
there's always good and bad - the waiting in linething. It’s gotten much better. It’s much better.
It's a generational thing. I generally find peopleunder 30 are very good at waiting in line, and
(31:06):
people over 30 are not. And you have to rememberthat everything in China is about scarcity.
This is a country of 1.4 billion people, whereresources are in short supply, seats in schools
are in short supply. Everything's in short supply.So people have to fight with what they can get.
Yeah, when you say that it makes you think “Yeah, the ones who did not push in
(31:29):
the front of the queue are the oneswho are not here anymore.” When you
think about what happened in China's historyEO: Historically, and that's just if you don't
fight to get everything, you’re not going toget anything. And that's just the mindset.
And I understand where that comes from. Butwhen you’re waiting to check out of a hotel,
and a guy just walks straight in front of you…And the amazing thing is, he doesn't even see you.
(31:49):
Yeah, it’s not rudeness, actually. EO
you're just like "No, no”, you know, andthen he looks at you and he goes “Oh,
I'm so sorry”. And I think Westerners oftentimesmisinterpreted it as being direct rudeness.
He was only looking at the checkout desk. Andhe didn't see the two people or three people.
Is there anything - even now, 30 years later - that
(32:12):
still mystifies you about life in China?EO: Every single day. I mean, the complexity
of it never, ever ceases to amaze me.OF: And this is someone who
speaks fluent Chinese too, right?EO: And again, the more you know, the less
you know. And there's this great chart, actually,that was circulating on social media. And it shows
(32:33):
‘age' versus ‘time being here’. OK, so theyoung people who have been here for one year,
all want to write the book on China. And theyfeel like they know it. And you can tell, these
people who have just been here for 1-3 years.And then the longer you go here, the amount of
time you spend here, the less you actually know.So the X/Y axis, and it just keeps going down,
(32:54):
down, down, down. And I am extraordinarily humbleabout what I know and what I don't know. I have a
graduate degree in Chinese foreign policy, I'vespent 30 years here, I've been studying Chinese.
I think I know a little bit compared to Westernersand other outsiders. And by the way, the Chinese
themselves are not very well educated about theirown country. A lot of the people who are raised in
(33:17):
the cities don't know much about the countryside.Same, by the way, in my own country as well. It's
too big for any one person to really grasp. Andso I mean, nobody can really understand it. There
is no such thing in my view as a ‘China Expert.’OF: And when I hear your podcast, it also makes
me think “And there's no such thing as onemonolithic Chinese policy versus Africa,
(33:39):
versus anything, right?” Because it's so complex.EO: It is very complex. You need an enormous
amount of humility. And I always want to makesure that humility comes out in everything that
I do related to China. So I'll get accusedby Chinese people saying “Oh this Westerner
thinks he knows everything”. And I'm like“No, no, no, you don't understand. I don't
know anything”. I don't know. I mean, I'm notbeing just fake humble. I'm genuinely saying,
(34:03):
I am learning every single day. Confucius had thisidea that says “You only gain wisdom when you're
70”. And I think there is some truth to that, thatI still have another 20 years trying to figure
this out before I start piecing it all together.OF: OK, see you then. Where is your favourite
place to eat, drink, or just hang out?EO: I mean, the perfect answer for this,
(34:24):
and the cliché answer would be, some corner divein the French concession that serves the best
dumplings that you've ever heard of it, thatnobody else knows. And it's their secret spot,
that only this one foreigner seems to know.I won't give you that answer. Because to be
honest with you, eating Eastern Chinese food -so that is Shanghai Chinese food - actually is
(34:45):
not my favourite. I gotta be honest withyou. It's greasy, I don't like the MSG,
and it's very salty. I prefer Southern Chinesefood, 云南 [Yúnnán], and then Western Chinese
food. I love that. But this food, I don't like.So I actually like the French bistros and the
Western food here in the French Concession.I don't have a particular favourite. I mean,
(35:07):
listen, I'm a big Wagas fan, I mean, that's avery kind of mainstream pedestrian answer. But
they do good service. You know, what I'm gonnasay? But I don't actually have a favourite dive,
or corner, or hole-in-the-wall in Shanghai.OF: What is the best or worst purchase you've
made in China?EO: A Roomba.
Oh, you've got one? EO
(35:27):
broke within like two months.OF: Oh so it was the worst one.
EO (35:30):
It was definitely the worst purchase I've ever made in China, bar none. It was the Roomba.
I mean, that's an international product, soit's not China's fault. The problem is that
I don't understand the complexity of the returnpolicies, the maintenance policies, and the whole
thing. All of that gets into a Byzantine kind ofsystem. So I still have this broken Roomba in my
(35:52):
closet. And the best purchase that I've made- not really a purchase - is our little puppy
Luna. And she's from Shanghai Animal Rescue. Bythe way, props out to Shanghai Animal Rescue,
they are angels doing god's work there.OF: Wow.
So she will be with us as a memory of Shanghai for hopefully
a very long time. But that is by far the best.OF: Awesome. We'll have a photo of her please.
(36:14):
Yes. OF
question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?EO: I have a lot. I do. This was actually one
of the harder questions. But I dolike the slow clap. So I've got a
couple of slow clap stickers, justto make fun of my friends who are
either expressing pride or expressingsomething, and you kind of give them a
slow clap. So yeah, so I'll say the slow clap.OF: Excellent. Now the second hardest question.
(36:39):
What’ss your favourite go-to song to sing at KTVEO: OK, so this is quite revealing. I've spent a
significant chunk of my adult life in Asia- Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, China - I don't
do KTV. I don't do it for the betterment ofsociety, and I don't do it because you don't
(37:01):
want to hear me sing.OF: Oh, but I do.
Oh no, you really, really don't. And I don't do it for me either. So I
actually am going to have to pass on thisquestion, simply because I don't do KTV.
OF (37:14):
OK. EO
like, shower singing like. OK, so if it's not KTVit's like the song in the shower. Oh god, this is
like the cute, quaint dumpling place in the Frenchconcession, your whole character will be judged on
how hip you are, on what song you sing, you know.OF: Just say what's on your mind now, because
(37:36):
that's gonna be your true real self exposed.EO: Oh no. I… I'll say American
Pie. “My, my, Miss American PieOF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?
EO (37:53):
I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.
OF (37:56):
The final question, which for you actually is quite interesting. What other China-related
media or sources of information do yourely on? Apart from of course, your own.
EO (38:05):
Well, the thing that I read every day, without missing it, and it's a long meaty read
is the Sinocism newsletter by Bill Bishop.And for anybody who's interested in China,
particularly China-US, this is not optional. Imean, in these days, and right now. So he's doing
basically the same thing that I'm doing, whichis filtering through, providing some perspective,
(38:27):
staying in that middle ground space. I'll also putout Jeremy Goldkorn and Kaiser Kuo with the Sinica
Podcast and SupChina. Those guys are doing thesame thing, they’re all part of the same culture.
We're all part of the same generation that spent alot of time here in the 90s, have some perspective
on China. The thing that I really want to cautionpeople on is that there are a lot of haters on
(38:50):
Twitter and things like that. I really thinkthat when you consume information about China,
it's increasingly important now to consider “Dothe people that you are reading and following
speak Chinese?” And in the old days, you didn't doit. And I use the same standard, could a Chinese
person come to the United States and not speak aword of English, not read the New York Times, not
(39:13):
understand anything that Trump is saying in hisown language, and say that he really understands
us? Impossible. And I think the same applies toChina watchers outside looking in. If you cannot
speak Chinese at a level sufficient to be able tounderstand what 习近平 [Xí Jìnpíng] is saying in a
speech, even 80% of it, I just don't take you thatcredibly. In my view. So that's been a line now,
(39:37):
I know that's a snooty line for a lot of people,but again, we apply the same standard to us, that
you can’t understand us if you don't speak ourlanguage. And there is no way you could understand
American culture without speaking English.OF: Great. Well, I can't think of a better
place to end that conversation. Thanks so much,Eric. That was great. And of course, the final
question I ask everyone on this podcast is, inthe next season, when I interview more people,
(39:59):
I want to have someone who you recommend. Sowho would you recommend that I speak to next?
I am going to recommend that you speak with a wonderful woman by the name of 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng].
And 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng] is a vlogger. She isbased here in Shanghai. She was born in Ghana,
and has spent an enormous amount of time inAfrica. And now she's dividing her time between
Shanghai and different parts of Africa: Kenya, Ghana, Tanzania and other places (40:18):
undefined
like that. And really bringing African life toChinese users on social media through vlogs and
WeChat posts and things like that. And I justthink she, in many ways represents the future,
which is expanding the China/Africarelationship beyond a political/economic
(40:38):
one to a human and cultural one.OF: Excellent. I can't wait to
meet her. Thanks so much, Eric.EO: My pleasure. Thank you so much.
[Outro]OF: Thanks
again to Eric. You can find him mostly onLinkedIn, just search for him there under
his name. He’s also on Twitter at eolander.He also hosts the China Africa Podcast,
(41:00):
which I’m sure you can find on whateverplatform you’re listening to this on.
This was the third recording in a row thatI did at my apartment in Shanghai. And if
I sounded a little on edge this time, it'sbecause I was trying to impress Eric at the
start of the podcast by offering himthe tea which he'd requested. Only,
since we're not a tea-drinking household, Ineeded to delve into the back of my cupboard,
(41:20):
and in so doing I tipped over and smashed a wholebottle of vinegar all over the floor. So it wasn't
the best start to the interview. Luckily for me,Eric is a class act, and he didn't ridicule me at
all, which is definitely not what I would havedone to him if the shoe was on the other foot.
Nothing much else to say about this recording,there was the usual mention of the French
(41:42):
Concession, whose actual name is the FormerFrench Concession. The reason I'm careful to
mention this each time is because the Chinesedon't really like this area being defined by
the time it was under the influence of a foreignpower. Which is actually fair enough I would say,
I mean, I can't think of many countries thatwould wear that as a badge of pride. Mind you,
even as I say that, I'm wondering whether that'scorrect, so please tell me if I'm wrong. Anyway,
(42:06):
even though the former French Concessionarea does have a look and feel that's quite
distinct from the rest of Shanghai, it'sonly really called that by the foreigners.
The other thing Eric mentioned which might nothave been clear is the acronym KOL. He was talking
about how people with 1,000 followers on socialmedia think that they're the next KOL. In case
(42:26):
you're not into marketing lingo, this just meansan 'influencer', it stands for Key Opinion Leader.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, editingby Milo de Prieto, graphics by Denny Newell,
China technical support by Alston Gong. If youlike us, please rate and comment on iTunes or
wherever you download this podcast. It reallydoes help with the algorithms, in getting this
(42:48):
podcast noticed by other people. So thankyou very much, and I’ll see you next week.
[Trailer]EO: I… I'll
(00:04):
say American Pie. “My, my, Miss American PieOF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?
EO (00:13):
I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people whoare making their mark in China. When all of
their stories are pieced together, they forma Mosaic of China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Firstly, in case you haven’t already, please dojoin the groups on Facebook at @mosaicofchina and
(00:34):
Instagram at @mosaicofchina_. And forWeChat, please send me a note directly
on my ID (00:41):
mosaicofchina and I’ll you to that group myself. Thanks to everyone who
commented on all the photos that I postedfrom last week’s interview with Maple. The
photo of the beautiful lake in Tibet seemsto have got the most attention. And I did
hear from many of you that I forgot to explain相声 [Xiàngsheng] in my outro. Sorry about that,
I totally missed it out. Maple brought itup, it’s sometimes translated as ‘crosstalk’,
(01:05):
in which usually two performers act outa dialogue between them, and it’s full of
comedic puns in Chinese. It reminds me a littlebit of 落語 [rakugo] in Japanese. Because somehow
I always need to talk about Japan in thisChina podcast. Anyway, both those art forms
are similar to Western stand-up comedy, but asMaple pointed out, they’re not personal, they’re
(01:27):
heavily scripted and rehearsed, and most of thecomedy just comes from wordplay, nothing else.
Anyway, today’s episode is with Eric Olander.Eric has been a journalist in China off and on
since 1989. His most recent incarnationhas been with the China Africa Project,
which he explains early in the podcast. But you’llquite quickly hear afterwards that his knowledge
(01:49):
goes way beyond this niche area. He talks veryeloquently about journalism issues in general,
such as bias, censorship, his relationship withthe public online, and the relationship between
officials and the online media, includingthe way in which China’s soft power is being
felt in places like Africa and beyond. SinceEric has so many interesting things to say,
(02:12):
it was very difficult to keep the interviewshort. So apologies for going a bit long on
this episode, I hope you’ll agree thatit was worth the few extra minutes.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you so much,
Eric. I know it's a busy time, so I appreciateyour time today. Eric is the co-founder of the
China Africa project. And you've been inChina now, on and off, for how many years?
EO (02:33):
Since 1989. I started studying Chinese in 1985, long before most of your audience was even
born. Long before Chinese was cool and hip. Youknow, there were no skinny white people walking
through the French Concession back when I washere the first time. It was rough and tumble,
there's no doubt about it. And so for me, thejourney from the 1980s till today has been just…
(02:59):
You know, I feel like it's been an honour anda privilege for me to have the opportunity of
seeing this. This journey that they've goneon, from being one of the poorest countries
in the world in the 80s, to now being the secondlargest economy in the world, is remarkable. And
when you you see that trajectory… I walk aroundShanghai and Beijing just mouth agape all the
(03:20):
time going “I remember when this was nothing".OF: Well, before we go too far down that road,
what is the object that you've bought today?EO: So my object is my moleskin book.
OF (03:30):
Right. EO
it doesn't have to be a branded book. Butit's a notepad. And for me as a recovering
journalist and still a journalist, but also assomeone who is hopelessly neurotic with lists,
it's how I organise and structure my life, it'show I keep things going forwards, how I keep my
head clear. I find that even in this digital world- and I'm extraordinarily digitally oriented,
(03:54):
I am connected to everything - being analogueis to me far more effective in many ways,
in terms of getting ideas out of my brain andinto the real world. They go on paper first,
oftentimes. And lists and things likethat. So my object is that notebook,
and you will almost never see me without it.OF: And this is what iteration of this book,
(04:17):
how many of these books do you have at home now?EO: Hundreds now. Because this is something that I
actually started way back as a teenager, making myto-do lists for the next day before I go to bed.
That was a habit I picked up. It was a habitthat was not taught. I just started doing it.
And there's something nice about actually physically crossing it out
with your pen when you've done it, right?EO: Yes, exactly. And there's something
(04:40):
therapeutic about writing itout. Now I have Evernote online,
and I do a lot of that task and list basedstuff on Evernote. But it's different than
writing with a pen. And I don't use justnormal pens. I use fountain pens. I mean,
really old school. But those cheap fountainpens that European students use in school.
But it is part of this kind of aesthetic of beingconnected to the old and the new, the analogue in
(05:02):
the digital. And I think both are important.OF: Well, that's great. And tell me,
how does this pad then relate to whatyou do, on a day to day basis today?
EO (05:10):
So now, you've caught me at a really exciting time in my life, because I'm finishing up here in
China with WPP advertising where I was working.I mean really, when you work here in advertising
and marketing, it is at the highest level. I mean,there is no bigger stage than China today. I mean,
New York is definitely a big stage. But prettymuch New York and Shanghai are as big as it gets.
(05:31):
So it's been just an amazing two years, just awonderful opportunity. It came to an end sooner
than I had planned. But that is life, right? Andso confronted with what to do next, I started to
go down the normal path and started talking topeople about jobs. And people were looking at
me in a very odd way. They said “What is somebodywith 1.2 million followers coming and looking for
(05:58):
a normal job?” When people with 1,000 followersall think they're going to be the next KOL star.
And so I was guided, through the universe talkingto me saying “Go out into the world and see if you
can leverage this platform to do exciting thingswith it.” So now this notepad is filled with new
(06:18):
designs for websites, new business strategiesfor email newsletters. And together with my
partner in South Africa - Cobus van Staden, whoI launched the China Africa Project with 10 years
ago - we’re launching a new premium service ofdaily emails, working with writers in China,
in Africa, and around the world to contributereally amazing content. And if this is a space
(06:41):
that's interesting for you, and you need it foryour work or to better understand the world, what
we're going to be doing is absolutely essential.OF: Well, great. Tell me then,
what is the China Africa project?EO: So the China Africa Project is
an independent, non-partisan multimedia website.We are entirely self-funded. This was a passion
project of ours for the past 10 years. And we justwere interested in it. My background is in China,
(07:03):
but I moved to Africa in the mid 2000s. AndI saw the rise of the Chinese in Africa in a
dramatic fashion. In the mid 2000s when I went,there was virtually no Chinese presence. And by
2007,2008,2009, it just went boom. And what I wasseeing out there was these narratives in Western
media - from the UK, and from the United States,predominantly - of ‘China's colonising Africa,
(07:26):
China's taking over Africa’. And then I wouldask my friends, employees and colleagues on
the ground in Kinshasa, where I was living atthe time. I said “What do you think?” And they
gave me these very complex, nuanced, textured,answers. And I thought ‘That's the story’. And
the Western narrative, which still is prevalenttoday about China, is that China is a very,
very provocative issue for people on theoutside. It's either good or it's bad,
(07:50):
and for the most part - 90 some odd percent of thecoverage of China - it’s cynical or negative. Not
all of it. I mean, there's good reasons for that.So I don't actually want to get into that. But I
just was seeing a very, very complicated storythat wasn't being reflected. And that's where I
decided I'm going to start writing, blogging, andeventually podcasting. And Cobus joined me for
(08:10):
the journey. So we explore every facet of Chineseengagement in Africa: social, political, cultural,
economic. Doesn’t matter, if it's related, wedo it. And we've built up a large audience,
because people seem to really value theimpartiality that we bring. We’re not
advocating for a company, a culture, or a country.And that's really, really important. Even though
(08:32):
he's South African, and I'm American,we're both white guys, we really, really
are passionate about taking that middle ground.OF: And tell me, there are so many topics that
you you approach Africa from. From the politicsside, from the economy, from the culture. Give
us a few examples of what you've seen in terms ofthe Chinese impact and the Chinese influence. And
I guess, just any Chinese stories in Africa.EO: Yeah, so we could spend the next two hours
(08:57):
of this podcast - we wouldn't bore your listenerswith that - and I could sit here and tell you that
China is the best thing that's ever happenedto Africa. It has brought infrastructure,
it's brought telecommunications, it'sbrought trade. And what it's done is,
it's liberated Africa, from being dependentexclusively on Western colonial powers,
which was a story that has been a hangover for thepast 50-60 years since the end of colonisation.
(09:21):
And China brought choice to Africans, that theydidn't have to take what France was saying,
or what the British were saying, or what theAmericans were saying. And they could have those
options. That's very, very powerful.OF: Even when they were being quite
benevolent, there just was no choice.EO: There was just no choice. Now there's a
choice. And choice is a really empowering thing.And it gives agency and it gives confidence.
(09:41):
And it's really very, very important. But I couldalso sit here, and I can tell you that China's the
worst thing that's ever happened to Africa. Andeverything that I would say would be 100% true.
Just like with everything that's great aboutit would be true, everything that's bad about
it would be true. The mechanisation of resourceextraction is on a level that the French and the
Belgians could have never dreamed of. The arrivalof Chinese vendors is both a blessing and a curse.
(10:06):
If you are a producer, you now have to match theChina price. The same problem that we're facing
in the US and Europe is confronting Africans. Ifyou're a consumer, you love it. Because you have
competition in the marketplace. They're breakingthe stranglehold of local producers who, for
decades, choked off competition. Now the Chinesecome in and said “We'll sell that pot, that pan,
whatever it is, at a fraction of the price”.That's great for consumers. So there are benefits
(10:31):
on all sides. The thing that I walk away withfrom this relationship is, if you hear anybody
say it's either good or bad, they're missing abig part of the story. Because it's both/and.
OF (10:41):
Well, I see now you have your own podcast on this topic.
EO (10:46):
Again, I could talk for two hours, and I won't bore your audience with that. But still 10 years
later, it's still something that fascinates me.OF: Well, it is fascinating, especially with
how you've positioned yourself as being in themiddle. And I guess that leads me to ask you,
how do you go about interviewingofficialdom? Not just in China,
(11:06):
but on both sides of this equation?EO: And it's even beyond officialdom.
Because I’m coming at this as a white, American,male. And race and gender and identity are really
important in this, because those are issuesthat affect the storytelling, and affect the
perceptions of how stories are told. And I haveto be very, very conscious of my privilege,
(11:28):
I'm conscious of my status, I'm conscious ofwho I am. And my goal is to step back in the
process. My goal is not to make me the centre ofanything. My goal is to make the people that we
interview the future. And the voices that we'rebringing up into the podcast and on the website
and into the circle of this discussion. They arethe ones that we really want to bring out. And
so I don't have a confrontational style in myinterview method. I have a style where I really
(11:54):
want to try and allow you to speak. Now thatpleases some people. And other people say “Well,
you should have been much tougher onthis Huawei spokesman, or this government
spokesman. And because you did not ask thosegotcha questions, you are therefore revealing
your biases”. And that's very interesting,because in these very hyper-partisan times,
(12:14):
people will take one show or one tweet or onepiece of comment, and then they will extrapolate
that across your whole professional background.And I resist that. And this is the beauty of the
fact that I don't depend on anybody for anything.This is self-funded and we do this because we
love it. So some people are happy, and somepeople are not. But because we are independent,
(12:37):
we just keep doing what we think is right. Andwhat we think is right is to stay in the middle,
to not take a side, to really be impartial, andto bring as many voices as possible to the debate.
OF (12:50):
You hit upon something which made me think. Something I heard recently on the news was,
there was an argument that all news organisationsshould be decoupled from the commercial angle,
just like what you've described. And thatactually, media organisations - be it TV shows,
be it magazines, newspapers - they actually allshould be like non-governmental organisations,
charities almost. Do you see now with allof this’ fake news’ nonsense - all of this
(13:14):
partisan politics coming into what should bevery nonpartisan mediums - do you see that
there's a solution, apart from people like you?EO: No. I used to run the largest business news
channel in Vietnam, I was the first foreigner toever run a news organisation in Vietnam. And the
first response that you get from people who comeand visit, they say “Wow, the censorship must be
(13:35):
terrible”. And in Vietnam, just like in China,there is political censorship on content. And I
say to them - and they always get very surprised- that I have spent now 25 years working at CNN,
AP, BBC, France 24, all over the world in mostof the world's major media organisations. And in
every case, I've encountered censorship. I'veencountered censorship in the United States
(13:57):
where it's predominantly corporate censorship. Soit's commercial. That is, at CNN we never covered
critical stories of our main advertisers. Youdon't bite the hand that feeds you. So the tobacco
industry, when I was there in the mid 90s, wasunder massive scrutiny. CNN stayed away from that
story. Only until Congress started to investigateit did CNN go in. Why? Because RJ Reynolds,
(14:19):
which was a big consumer product company, did alot of business with Turner Broadcasting. They
did not want to jeopardise those advertisingrelationships. You will never see a local TV
station in the United States do an investigationon used car sales. Because used cars are a massive
advertiser. It's just the nature of the way itis. In France when I was the Editor in Chief of
France 24, the censorship and the bias therewas cultural. So they will cover Francophone
(14:46):
African countries at the expense of AnglophoneAfrican countries. Day to day decisions are made
based on linguistic and cultural leanings of acountry. I was in editorial meetings where we
had decisions about “Do we send crews to Zambia,or to Cameroon?” And I lost the discussion sending
crews to Zambia. And then afterwards, they say“Well, of course, because Cameron's a Francophone
(15:08):
country.” That's a form of censorship in myworld. Government-run media, Voice of America,
you know, they're not independent either. Sothe point is that after a career of working
in these news organisations, I have yet to findone that is impartial. And this fantastical idea
(15:29):
that non-governmental organisations are somehowimpartial too is just offensive and ridiculous
too. They are actors in the political space likeanybody else. And I think that one of the things
that I've noticed after covering Africa forso long, and covering South Asia and whatnot,
is that we give NGOs a pass, as if they’re somekind of saints. They’re out there raising money,
(15:51):
they have agendas and whatnot, we need totreat them like we treat any other actor
in the space. They are not immune from thesebiases, and from being misled or whatever. They
do good work. But who cares? They are actorswith agendas, we need to treat them as such.
And so you touched upon there, when you had people giving you a hard time for not
(16:13):
asking the right question, that one exampleyou gave. It made me think about actually how
you now manage the news landscape in this day ofimmediate feedback on social media. Give me your
‘every day’ about how you manage social media.EO: There are two things that I do. If they
are respectful, I will engage them. I don'twant people who just agree with me. In fact,
(16:38):
I live for the discussions, and for people who areon different sides. And my goal is not necessarily
to persuade you. That is not my goal, for me tobe right and for you to be wrong. My goal is to
present facts and evidence and reason behind whyI think it's this way. And then you can decide for
yourself whether or not you agree. And at the endof this discussion, if there is civility in it,
(17:00):
and it's like, “I enjoyed that" then it'sgreat. As soon as the F-bombs, S-bombs,
as soon as anything comes out, you automaticallyget muted in my world. And it's just, you're gone.
I disengage, I don't pay any attention. I havetoo many people to talk to, and to engage with,
that I just don't waste my time with that. Andit's not serious. And also, this has to be fun
and enjoyable. And when people start hurlingthose kind of personal missives your way, it's
(17:25):
not fun and pleasant. It hurts when people say “You're a bad interviewer” or “You're a bad this”,
but that's OK, that's good. Because Ilike the fact that they're listening in,
they're engaged. Fortunately I don't get toomuch of that negativity, but it does come up.
And I just classified as, if it's civil and ifit's relevant, then it's OK. If it's uncivil,
(17:47):
and it's not relevant, then it's veryeasy on social media just to go “Boop,
you're muted”. And I don't see that anymore.OF: And I guess, because it’s an English language
podcast, you're going to get lots of Englishlanguage comments. Do you get some Chinese people
who are commenting? Do they have a differentquality or different timbre to their comments?
EO (18:05):
Yeah they do. In terms of how the Chinese interact with the outside world, it's very,
very interesting. And I don't actually think theChinese in this sense are that much different
to the average American. The average American'sawareness of the outside world is actually quite
low as well, for different reasons. In the UnitedStates, people have access to the information;
people here simply don't have access. So Ifind that when I have a discussion with a
(18:30):
Chinese person about US-China relations orChina-Africa relations, oftentimes they're
coming to that discussion with about 20% of theinformation that we have available. They just
have not been exposed to the level of detail thatwe have, and to the complexity of the narrative
that we have. So there's a lot of confusion. Andit's one of the reasons why Chinese stakeholders
will often go from zero to pissed off very, veryfast. Because they don't have the data tools to
(18:57):
respond to these types of arguments. And we’llstart saying “Well, what about this? What about
that? What about this?” And they can't respond, sothen it ends up oftentimes leading to “OK, well,
then… you just don't like China”. And that happensa lot. I don't think that's a productive outcome
of a conversation. Which is one of the reasons whypeople who have lived here for a long time - and
(19:17):
know the information ecosystem that they'reworking within - have an ability to navigate that,
to try and extract out more. Rather than peoplewho have just come off the boat, they start
peppering the Chinese with questions, andthey run into that wall very, very quickly.
OF (19:32):
So as an extension to that, is there a certain way that you would ask questions to
a Chinese official that you perhaps wouldn'tdo to others? Or is it basically the same?
EO (19:41):
Well, first and foremost, Chinese officials don't engage with foreign media. It just doesn't
happen. It used to be that Chinese scholars andthink tanks would engage with foreign media, but
now that's been cut off too. There is no incentivewhatsoever for a Chinese scholar to talk to me,
or to talk to a journalist. Unlike in the UnitedStates or in the West, where oftentimes scholars
(20:04):
want to become more famous and well-known, andthat drives speaking and drives a lot of different
things that are in their benefit. Here, it'sonly lose/lose for them. If they say something
that is wrong and out of line with what the partyline is, their careers could be over. I'm very,
very sympathetic to the individual who has tomake that decision. Because at the end of the day,
(20:25):
he or she has a family to feed, has a career toadvance, and I understand that. I'm disappointed
though, because the Chinese voice is oftenmissing from the discussion. So it's one of
the reasons why the Chinese get such bad pressaround the world. It’s simply that they don't
participate in the discussion.OF: Now, I thought though,
the Chinese were starting to recognise this, andstarting to work out “Yes, we need to work on our
(20:48):
soft power approach, not just our hard powerapproach”. It sounds, from what you're saying,
that they're taking a step back from that now.EO: No. Soft power is a very complicated thing.
It's manifested in many, many differentways. However, there are new forms of
soft power that are coming out. So when youtalk to young Africans, 16/17/18 year olds,
you say “What do you think of China?” And theypull out their Huawei phone, or they talk about
(21:12):
Boomplay which is the Spotify for Africa, or theytalk about StarTimes which is the pay TV service,
these are all Chinese brands. And their world isshaped by technology, by gadgets, by the content
that comes through those channels. And a lotof that is Chinese. Musical.ly, for example,
is a Chinese brand from ByteDance, it's in theUnited States. Now people don't necessarily know
(21:34):
that that's a Chinese thing. But there’s startingto be some awareness now - particularly with TECNO
which is the largest phone company in Africa- that these are Chinese brands and they’ve
brought high quality products at a low price, andhave been able to to connect hundreds of millions
of people that will once not connected. That is aform of soft power. The other very quick thing on
(21:55):
soft power, we in the West discount infrastructureas power. We take for granted that there's a
road in our neighbourhood, we take for grantedthat there's a bridge, a hospital, an airport,
whatever. In the United States, less and less.I mean, our infrastructure sucks. But in Europe
it’s great infrastructure. But when Africans comeover to Shanghai, and they see what's been built
(22:18):
here in their lifetimes, that is inspiring, it'smotivating. And it's very, very powerful. People
are impressed. They don’t do that with the UnitedStates, or France or Spain, because they've had it
for a long time. This is 35-40 years old. Theysay “If the Chinese were as poor as we were in
(22:39):
my lifetime, and they did it, it can be done.”It's an inspirational story. So that's another
form of soft power that people don't think of.OF: So we’ve come to the end of the first part of
this conversation, but I guess my last questionwould be a crazy one, which I don't know how
you're going to answer. But what would you predictabout what's gonna happen in Africa in the next
(22:59):
5-10 years when it comes to Chinese influence?EO: So Africa is staring down the barrel of a
gun. And it's interesting, because it’s a similargun that the Chinese are staring down, the same
barrel. And it's the demographic barrel. Chinahere is staring down the idea that in 10-15 years,
(23:21):
their old population is going to crush theiryoung population. And you know, there's the
saying that ‘China is going to get old before itgets rich’. Now, Africa is the opposite problem.
Africa is a traditional pyramid. It's a continentof 21 year olds, 22 year olds, 23 year olds. Well,
(23:42):
what do 23 year olds do? They get busy and theyhave babies. So they’re, around the next 10 years,
facing down a surging population of 300million new mouths to feed. And they have
to industrialise, and employ, and really createsocieties that are engaging for these young people
that are coming up. This huge population. Africais going to face the brunt of climate change,
(24:05):
disproportionately. Already it is. South Africawas on the verge of running out of water. Not just
Cape Town, but the entire country. The deserts arespreading faster in Africa than they are anywhere
else. The extremes in heat. Climate change isgoing to wreak havoc in many parts of Africa.
So that's another reason why this infrastructurehas to be built as a buffer against the changing
(24:30):
climate. So both are racing against time, but fordifferent reasons. And it’s one of the reasons why
a lot of African leaders have turned to theChinese for loans, and for infrastructure,
and for support. Because no-one else is liningup to give them this money. The West will talk a
great game about human rights, and “don't takethe Chinese money,” and debt sustainability,
(24:53):
and all of this. But they're not willing to buildthe ports, the roads, the freeways, the highways,
the hospitals, the special economic zones.And so again, we can hear from the West all
of those pleasantries, but at the end of theday, they're not lining up to give the money,
the Chinese are. So I think that this is a veryimportant calculated risk that African leaders
(25:14):
are making now. It's a gamble. It's a risk. Butbecause they've got that population bulge that
is coming, they’ve got to do something about it.OF: Very good. And I'm very conscious that I'm
saying ‘Africa’ as a huge generalisation, I mean…EO: 55 countries.
OF (25:27):
I know, I mean it’s terrible. EO
from Cairo to Cape Town and everything inbetween. The diversity. And by the way,
the same applies to China. You know, I alwayssay that this is not a single country, this is
1,000 countries. And they say ‘it's a civilizationposing as a country’ and I think there's a lot of
truth to that. So the diversity in this countryis also misleading in many respects. And this is
(25:52):
not a single actor, when we're talking about theChinese. Chinese provinces are engaging in Africa,
Chinese government, Chinese corporations, Chinesestate-owned enterprises, migrants. It’s happening
on so many different levels. So I think again,these are shorthand words for very complex ideas.
[Part 2]OF: Let's jump into Part 2.
EO (26:11):
Oh-Oh. The lightning round. OF
answer as quickly as you can, or you can takeyour time. It's up to you. So Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?EO: $24 billion - $1 billion every hour - sold
by Tmall and Alibaba on November11, in that sale. Think about it,
(26:32):
24. And I think last year was like 26 billion,
more than $1 billion an hour. Incredible.OF: So just to explain, that’s November 11th
every year. Explain what happens in China.EO: So what they do is, they created this
anti-Valentine’s Day. So it was it was Singles Dayand they picked November 11, because it's sticks,
you know, representing single people. And Alibaba,the world's largest e-commerce company, started
(26:56):
just discounting products. And they created thisphenomenal type of culture around selling. And
so everybody, all the brands line up, the wholecountry, it becomes like a national holiday. So
basically take Black Friday, Black Monday, CyberMonday, all of those kind of sales and put it on
steroids. And this is compacted into just one24-hour period, they're selling more in volume
(27:20):
than all of the Christmas holiday shopping seasonin the United States. It's remarkable. 24 billion,
and it just keeps going up every year.OF: Amazing. Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?EO: In Chinese, they have these things
called 成语 [chéngyǔ]. If you are a highly educatedChinese person - and maybe even kind of middle,
(27:43):
but an educated person - you will speak inthese idioms and these phrases. And Chinese is
a beautiful language for that, because it can meanso many different things. And you can get a very
complex idea into just 2-4 characters, normally 4characters. So they have one called 养儿防老 [yǎnger
fánglǎo], which means that the young, when yougrow up, you are taking care of your parents.
(28:03):
And so the son, it's a male responsibility.So when you're an older man, taking care
of your elderly parents, you say 养儿防老 [yǎngerfánglǎo]. Ot's the filial piety type of part of
the culture. And I just absolutely love how inthis culture, elderly people are cared for and
(28:25):
looked after and valued. And in my culture, forthe most part, older people oftentimes are not.
OF (28:30):
Well said. What’s your favourite destination within China?
EO (28:35):
I spend most of my time in the tier one cities Beijing, Shanghai, 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].
But just like where you come from, and just likewhere I come from, the heart of the country is
not in these tier one cities. The heart of thecountry in the countryside. So I was just in 贵州
[Guìzhōu] which is in the south, which is one ofthe more poor provinces, I was in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng]
(28:57):
a few years ago, in 甘肃 [Gānsù]… I've been toabout 15 different provinces. And so for me,
it's going out into the countryside, and it'sjust the simplicity of it, you roll back 4-500
years when you go into the countryside. You'restill seeing oxes. And electrification hasn't
reached everywhere. It's much better thanit was. But the standard of living is very,
(29:18):
very different. The way that they do things, thetiered farming, the mountains are all tiered.
I mean, these go back centuries, and how they dothings in those techniques. And you realise again,
just the scope and scale of how big China is, andhow complex it is, as soon as you go out. And by
the way, you only have to leave Shanghai an houror two outside and you've gone back centuries.
OF (29:38):
Right. EO
specific place, just not being in the big cities.OF: If you left China, what would you miss the
most, and what would you miss the least?EO: I never leave China. I've been involved
in China since I was 15 yearsold. I've been coming since I
was 18 or 19. So in this particular case, Iam actually physically leaving the country,
(29:58):
but I'm never leaving. I am always connected toit through my work. And I will be back. So for me,
it's a ‘see you later’. The thing thatI miss the most is the pace. Everywhere
else feels slow compared to Beijing andShanghai. And just that amazing energy
that people have is just unbelievable.OF: And that's specifically Shanghai
(30:22):
compared to other cities too, right?EO: It is specifically Shanghai.
Yeah. EO
at this pace. Some of the big cities run at thispace. There’s a China speed, there is definitely a
China's speed. I am wired for that. And maybe I'vebeen raised in it. But I go back to New York or
London - or some other places that are presumablyfast - and they feel very slow. So I love that and
(30:43):
it's just… it's kinetic. It's energising. Youget going, and out you go. Seven days a week,
the Sundays here are as busy as the Mondays. And Ilove that. What I don't like - and with everything
there's always good and bad - the waiting in linething. It’s gotten much better. It’s much better.
It's a generational thing. I generally find peopleunder 30 are very good at waiting in line, and
(31:06):
people over 30 are not. And you have to rememberthat everything in China is about scarcity.
This is a country of 1.4 billion people, whereresources are in short supply, seats in schools
are in short supply. Everything's in short supply.So people have to fight with what they can get.
Yeah, when you say that it makes you think “Yeah, the ones who did not push in
(31:29):
the front of the queue are the oneswho are not here anymore.” When you
think about what happened in China's historyEO: Historically, and that's just if you don't
fight to get everything, you’re not going toget anything. And that's just the mindset.
And I understand where that comes from. Butwhen you’re waiting to check out of a hotel,
and a guy just walks straight in front of you…And the amazing thing is, he doesn't even see you.
(31:49):
Yeah, it’s not rudeness, actually. EO
you're just like "No, no”, you know, andthen he looks at you and he goes “Oh,
I'm so sorry”. And I think Westerners oftentimesmisinterpreted it as being direct rudeness.
He was only looking at the checkout desk. Andhe didn't see the two people or three people.
Is there anything - even now, 30 years later - that
(32:12):
still mystifies you about life in China?EO: Every single day. I mean, the complexity
of it never, ever ceases to amaze me.OF: And this is someone who
speaks fluent Chinese too, right?EO: And again, the more you know, the less
you know. And there's this great chart, actually,that was circulating on social media. And it shows
(32:33):
‘age' versus ‘time being here’. OK, so theyoung people who have been here for one year,
all want to write the book on China. And theyfeel like they know it. And you can tell, these
people who have just been here for 1-3 years.And then the longer you go here, the amount of
time you spend here, the less you actually know.So the X/Y axis, and it just keeps going down,
(32:54):
down, down, down. And I am extraordinarily humbleabout what I know and what I don't know. I have a
graduate degree in Chinese foreign policy, I'vespent 30 years here, I've been studying Chinese.
I think I know a little bit compared to Westernersand other outsiders. And by the way, the Chinese
themselves are not very well educated about theirown country. A lot of the people who are raised in
(33:17):
the cities don't know much about the countryside.Same, by the way, in my own country as well. It's
too big for any one person to really grasp. Andso I mean, nobody can really understand it. There
is no such thing in my view as a ‘China Expert.’OF: And when I hear your podcast, it also makes
me think “And there's no such thing as onemonolithic Chinese policy versus Africa,
(33:39):
versus anything, right?” Because it's so complex.EO: It is very complex. You need an enormous
amount of humility. And I always want to makesure that humility comes out in everything that
I do related to China. So I'll get accusedby Chinese people saying “Oh this Westerner
thinks he knows everything”. And I'm like“No, no, no, you don't understand. I don't
know anything”. I don't know. I mean, I'm notbeing just fake humble. I'm genuinely saying,
(34:03):
I am learning every single day. Confucius had thisidea that says “You only gain wisdom when you're
70”. And I think there is some truth to that, thatI still have another 20 years trying to figure
this out before I start piecing it all together.OF: OK, see you then. Where is your favourite
place to eat, drink, or just hang out?EO: I mean, the perfect answer for this,
(34:24):
and the cliché answer would be, some corner divein the French concession that serves the best
dumplings that you've ever heard of it, thatnobody else knows. And it's their secret spot,
that only this one foreigner seems to know.I won't give you that answer. Because to be
honest with you, eating Eastern Chinese food -so that is Shanghai Chinese food - actually is
(34:45):
not my favourite. I gotta be honest withyou. It's greasy, I don't like the MSG,
and it's very salty. I prefer Southern Chinesefood, 云南 [Yúnnán], and then Western Chinese
food. I love that. But this food, I don't like.So I actually like the French bistros and the
Western food here in the French Concession.I don't have a particular favourite. I mean,
(35:07):
listen, I'm a big Wagas fan, I mean, that's avery kind of mainstream pedestrian answer. But
they do good service. You know, what I'm gonnasay? But I don't actually have a favourite dive,
or corner, or hole-in-the-wall in Shanghai.OF: What is the best or worst purchase you've
made in China?EO: A Roomba.
Oh, you've got one? EO
(35:27):
broke within like two months.OF: Oh so it was the worst one.
EO (35:30):
It was definitely the worst purchase I've ever made in China, bar none. It was the Roomba.
I mean, that's an international product, soit's not China's fault. The problem is that
I don't understand the complexity of the returnpolicies, the maintenance policies, and the whole
thing. All of that gets into a Byzantine kind ofsystem. So I still have this broken Roomba in my
(35:52):
closet. And the best purchase that I've made- not really a purchase - is our little puppy
Luna. And she's from Shanghai Animal Rescue. Bythe way, props out to Shanghai Animal Rescue,
they are angels doing god's work there.OF: Wow.
So she will be with us as a memory of Shanghai for hopefully
a very long time. But that is by far the best.OF: Awesome. We'll have a photo of her please.
(36:14):
Yes. OF
question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?EO: I have a lot. I do. This was actually one
of the harder questions. But I dolike the slow clap. So I've got a
couple of slow clap stickers, justto make fun of my friends who are
either expressing pride or expressingsomething, and you kind of give them a
slow clap. So yeah, so I'll say the slow clap.OF: Excellent. Now the second hardest question.
(36:39):
What’ss your favourite go-to song to sing at KTVEO: OK, so this is quite revealing. I've spent a
significant chunk of my adult life in Asia- Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, China - I don't
do KTV. I don't do it for the betterment ofsociety, and I don't do it because you don't
(37:01):
want to hear me sing.OF: Oh, but I do.
Oh no, you really, really don't. And I don't do it for me either. So I
actually am going to have to pass on thisquestion, simply because I don't do KTV.
OF (37:14):
OK. EO
like, shower singing like. OK, so if it's not KTVit's like the song in the shower. Oh god, this is
like the cute, quaint dumpling place in the Frenchconcession, your whole character will be judged on
how hip you are, on what song you sing, you know.OF: Just say what's on your mind now, because
(37:36):
that's gonna be your true real self exposed.EO: Oh no. I… I'll say American
Pie. “My, my, Miss American PieOF: Eric, it's beautiful, what’s wrong with you?
EO (37:53):
I mean, I'll be on that front line podcasting, but not singing.
OF (37:56):
The final question, which for you actually is quite interesting. What other China-related
media or sources of information do yourely on? Apart from of course, your own.
EO (38:05):
Well, the thing that I read every day, without missing it, and it's a long meaty read
is the Sinocism newsletter by Bill Bishop.And for anybody who's interested in China,
particularly China-US, this is not optional. Imean, in these days, and right now. So he's doing
basically the same thing that I'm doing, whichis filtering through, providing some perspective,
(38:27):
staying in that middle ground space. I'll also putout Jeremy Goldkorn and Kaiser Kuo with the Sinica
Podcast and SupChina. Those guys are doing thesame thing, they’re all part of the same culture.
We're all part of the same generation that spent alot of time here in the 90s, have some perspective
on China. The thing that I really want to cautionpeople on is that there are a lot of haters on
(38:50):
Twitter and things like that. I really thinkthat when you consume information about China,
it's increasingly important now to consider “Dothe people that you are reading and following
speak Chinese?” And in the old days, you didn't doit. And I use the same standard, could a Chinese
person come to the United States and not speak aword of English, not read the New York Times, not
(39:13):
understand anything that Trump is saying in hisown language, and say that he really understands
us? Impossible. And I think the same applies toChina watchers outside looking in. If you cannot
speak Chinese at a level sufficient to be able tounderstand what 习近平 [Xí Jìnpíng] is saying in a
speech, even 80% of it, I just don't take you thatcredibly. In my view. So that's been a line now,
(39:37):
I know that's a snooty line for a lot of people,but again, we apply the same standard to us, that
you can’t understand us if you don't speak ourlanguage. And there is no way you could understand
American culture without speaking English.OF: Great. Well, I can't think of a better
place to end that conversation. Thanks so much,Eric. That was great. And of course, the final
question I ask everyone on this podcast is, inthe next season, when I interview more people,
(39:59):
I want to have someone who you recommend. Sowho would you recommend that I speak to next?
I am going to recommend that you speak with a wonderful woman by the name of 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng].
And 赵慧玲 [Zhào Huìlíng] is a vlogger. She isbased here in Shanghai. She was born in Ghana,
and has spent an enormous amount of time inAfrica. And now she's dividing her time between
Shanghai and different parts of Africa: Kenya, Ghana, Tanzania and other places (40:18):
undefined
like that. And really bringing African life toChinese users on social media through vlogs and
WeChat posts and things like that. And I justthink she, in many ways represents the future,
which is expanding the China/Africarelationship beyond a political/economic
(40:38):
one to a human and cultural one.OF: Excellent. I can't wait to
meet her. Thanks so much, Eric.EO: My pleasure. Thank you so much.
[Outro]OF: Thanks
again to Eric. You can find him mostly onLinkedIn, just search for him there under
his name. He’s also on Twitter at eolander.He also hosts the China Africa Podcast,
(41:00):
which I’m sure you can find on whateverplatform you’re listening to this on.
This was the third recording in a row thatI did at my apartment in Shanghai. And if
I sounded a little on edge this time, it'sbecause I was trying to impress Eric at the
start of the podcast by offering himthe tea which he'd requested. Only,
since we're not a tea-drinking household, Ineeded to delve into the back of my cupboard,
(41:20):
and in so doing I tipped over and smashed a wholebottle of vinegar all over the floor. So it wasn't
the best start to the interview. Luckily for me,Eric is a class act, and he didn't ridicule me at
all, which is definitely not what I would havedone to him if the shoe was on the other foot.
Nothing much else to say about this recording,there was the usual mention of the French
(41:42):
Concession, whose actual name is the FormerFrench Concession. The reason I'm careful to
mention this each time is because the Chinesedon't really like this area being defined by
the time it was under the influence of a foreignpower. Which is actually fair enough I would say,
I mean, I can't think of many countries thatwould wear that as a badge of pride. Mind you,
even as I say that, I'm wondering whether that'scorrect, so please tell me if I'm wrong. Anyway,
(42:06):
even though the former French Concessionarea does have a look and feel that's quite
distinct from the rest of Shanghai, it'sonly really called that by the foreigners.
The other thing Eric mentioned which might nothave been clear is the acronym KOL. He was talking
about how people with 1,000 followers on socialmedia think that they're the next KOL. In case
(42:26):
you're not into marketing lingo, this just meansan 'influencer', it stands for Key Opinion Leader.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, editingby Milo de Prieto, graphics by Denny Newell,
China technical support by Alston Gong. If youlike us, please rate and comment on iTunes or
wherever you download this podcast. It reallydoes help with the algorithms, in getting this
(42:48):
podcast noticed by other people. So thankyou very much, and I’ll see you next week.
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