March 9, 2020 • 26 mins
International diplomacy can deal with matters of global consequence such as trade and the environment. It can deal with the deeply personal aspects of helping nationals in distress overseas. And it can also deal with the mundane drudgery of working in a large bureaucracy. In my conversation with Tom Barker, the New Zealand Deputy Consul-General in Shanghai, we cover all of these aspects in our short time together. I couldn’t possibly talk to a diplomat from New Zealand without bringing up the character Murray Hewitt from the HBO Series “Flight of the Conchords”. So if you’ve never heard of this TV series, then I would highly recommend watching an episode or two after listening to this podcast. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:11 - Part 1 15:52 - Part 2 24:12 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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(00:00):
[Trailer]TB: My phone basically looks like a 15 year old’s
(00:05):
after he's been out for an all-night drinkingbinge, which is at times slightly embarrassing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
So it turns out Gigi from last week'sepisode has a lot of fans. There are
(00:25):
many people out there who had read her andAnna Holmwood’s translation of the Legends
of the Condor Heroes. And the good news forthose people is that Gigi’s work continues,
and she's aiming to release the fourthbook in the season in 2021. And no,
I can't get you a discount. I also forgot tomention last week that I first met Gigi at a
party in Shanghai hosted by my friends Sophieand Thibaud, so a belated thank you to them.
(00:47):
This week, we switched from the world ofliterature to the world of diplomacy. Today's
conversation is with Tom Barker, who is a NewZealand diplomat in Shanghai. I first met Tom
last year through a mutual friend, Gabby Gabriel,so my second shout-out of the day goes to Gabby.
And as for Tom himself, it's not often we getto hear on record from someone in his field,
(01:08):
so I was very grateful to him for taking thetime to speak with me. He somehow managed
to be very frank and personable without sayinganything that would lead to a diplomatic fallout.
And before we get on to the interview, letme just give you a quick Coronavirus update,
something which I'm sure if keeping today's guestvery busy these days. So it's March 10th 2020,
and the main update this week is that anyonecoming into China from countries such as Korea,
(01:32):
Italy and Iran now need to go intoquarantine at a location where they
can be kept under medical observation. So this isnew, previously people were being asked to manage
their own self-confinement. Otherwise,there's no updates to life in Shanghai,
although I do just want to say… Why onearth does everyone outside of China seem
to be stocking up on toilet paper? I didn't evenunderstand the connection to the virus. I mean,
(01:55):
hand sanitiser and face masks, yes. But toiletpaper? I've been in China for the last five weeks,
and I've never seen a shortage of toilet paperhere. Anyway, now it's me who is on the verge of
causing a diplomatic incident, so maybe I shouldstop talking and let's get on with the show.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you,
Tom. I'm here with Tom Barker. Tom is the NewZealand Deputy Consul General for Shanghai
TB (02:18):
Hi. OF
any conversation, the first thing I asked youor any guests is, what object have you brought?
I brought my phone, the most tedious, boring, ubiquitous object everyone has. But for those who
work in my line of work, it's also the chain thatshackles us to our job. I mean, at least for me,
it's an object which I have on me all the time,quite literally, it has to be on my person 24/7.
(02:44):
And it's a way that I can be contacted all time.So it's just… it literally is the ball and chain,
which anchors me to both my job and tothe way I exist when I'm in Shanghai.
OF (02:54):
That must be mainly for security reasons, I'm guessing.
TB (02:57):
It is, it's just information we have is so vital, and the way that we communicate with
each other is so vital, that it becomes reallyimportant you always have your phone - or whatever
means you're using to communicate to the world -on you. You know, I'm from a very small country,
New Zealand has 3.9 - no, sorry, 4.9 - millionpeople. So, you know, we're a small country. And
(03:17):
so when we lose things like an iPhone, peoplenotice and they get very grumpy about it.
OF (03:21):
Interesting. And does that also extend to other aspects? So I guess social media
in general must be very tightly controlled.OF: Yeah, I mean, I don't have a social media
presence. That's for a variety of reasons,one of which is just that you have to be very
careful of what you say, when you represent agovernment. There are examples - a few other
(03:43):
country's governments, I should say - where peoplehave inadvertently, after a couple of couple of
drinks, sent out a social media message theyprobably shouldn't have. And then, you know,
the repercussions of that are quite awful. Well,personally awful, for the rest of us in the world:
fairly hilarious. But… and so I try to, sort of,restrict what I do as much as possible. And one
way you can restrict that is just by keepingyourself as low-key as possible. So we have
(04:07):
our official social media presence, which youknow, we mediate and moderate through a variety
of checks and balances, most of which are just,you know, the usual tedious things where you will
write something and then nine people above youwill vet it, edit it, and correct it. You know,
that's just any bureaucracy. But personally, Idon't do much in the way of social media. So I
have WeChat. But I have very limited amount ofpeople on it. I have Facebook, but I think just
(04:31):
my parents are on. And I think that's all I have.OF: Right. Let's go back to the phone then,
seeing as it's the object you brought.TB: I mean, yeah, this phone is a very
typical sort of bureaucratic device. It's a blackiPhone. Black, because people like to imagine we
exist in the shadows. Actually, we kind of moreexists in the beige or the grey. And I mean,
(04:52):
the one thing that's kind of unusual about it,I guess, is that it has a security screen which
prevents anyone from seeing what I'm reading fromother sides. But because, you know, these things
are invented by bureaucracies, the security screenis quite large, it sticks up quite a bit further,
which means that none of the iPhone covers andprotective devices work very well on it. So every
(05:13):
time I put it down, it gets scratched. Everytime the phone falls, it gets scratched. So my
phone basically looks like a 15 year old’s afterhe's been out for an all-night drinking binge,
which is at times slightly embarrassing.OF: Well, obviously the first thing that comes
to my mind when I think of a New Zealanddiplomat is ‘Flight of the Conchords’.
You're nodding knowingly over there.TB: Yeah, I mean, it's a reference you
(05:37):
hear quite often. I mean, sadly, it's not thatinaccurate. Our consulates are usually just two
or three people. We often do have a man calledMurray. So ‘Flight of the Conchords’, I mean,
from my perspective as a New Zealander, was justan iconic skit show, but they were picked up
by HBO and I have to admit that I've only everseen a couple of their HBO shows, because I've
(05:59):
never lived in the right countries to be able towatch it when they were on. But one of the ongoing
conceits of it was, they were based in the U.S.and they would go into the consulate general's
office in the U.S. And it would be basicallya tiny wardrobe-sized office with a man called
Murray who was the official diplomat of record,who would then give them very bad advice. I'd like
(06:24):
to think we don't do the very bad advice part. ButI mean, when you compare us to every other embassy
or consulate in the world, we are tiny. I'vebeen to rather hilarious negotiations where I'll
walk in at the WTO - because I used to be a WTOnegotiator - and I'd walk into these meetings with
the Americans. And there'll be 15 people on oneside of a table, and then me, and if I was lucky,
(06:48):
my colleague on the other side of the table.OF: Nice. So there are elements actually
that they did get kind of right in that show.TB: Parody always has that element of truth,
that’s what makes it so hilarious.The smallness of New Zealand,
and also the overly friendly sort of attitude.I think those are things that we do quite well,
(07:09):
you know, where you try to beas helpful as possible. We try
to be useful, we try to be proactive.OF: With New Zealand being so small,
like, the conceit is that I can say “Do youknow X from this city? Do you know Y from
that city?” And actually, you probably do.TB: Yeah. So I mean, I've spent time in the
UK where that is a drinking game. You go into arandom person's house for… they’re having a party
(07:31):
or something. And all sudden, they'll be like “Oh,there are two Kiwis here. Let's see who they know
in common!” And you're suddenly forced to sitnext to someone and recite names and locations,
until you have a person in common. And thereally annoying thing is, often it works.
What about with the guys from the ‘Flight of the Conchords’ themselves? Do
you have any connections with those guys?TB: Admittedly, I do. I was at Victoria
(07:53):
University at the same time they were,and spent time hanging out with them,
though more preferably. Mostly because the wifeof one of them - I’m not going to say who - was
a very good friend of mine, and so yeah.OF: Well, there you go. The game does work,
we have proof. And so, in termsof the consulate, which part do
(08:14):
you work in, and what's the day in the life?TB: So I mean, I work in the political section,
as opposed to the trade promotion section. BecauseI used to be a trade negotiator, and I've worked
in climate change, my role sort of encompassesthose two areas, primarily. I work in the trade
and economic section. So I do a lot of reportingaround what's happening in the local economy, sort
of how we help businesses interface in China. Ialso do a lot of work around, sort of the consular
(08:41):
side, which is providing assistance and care todistressed Kiwis. I spend an awful lot of time
doing speeches. Most bureaucrats and diplomats arejust generally boring nerds, and yet somehow we’re
asked to go out to these places and try and beexciting, and represent this incredibly dynamic,
innovative country. And we are the opposite ofthat. And then I spend a lot of time researching
(09:03):
what China's looking at doing, and the policythey're doing, to try and work out where New
Zealand can either work with China to promotethings - like for example, climate change - or
where we can sort of try and influence China intoa direction which we think is more beneficial for
us, for example in trade negotiations anddeveloping regional trade architecture.
(09:23):
Well, there you go, that’s very well summarised. And you said that,
as part of your experience, you were inGeneva with the WTO. So how did you end
up here in China? What's your career background?TB: After I finished university, I went to Seoul
to visit a friend, and to do a little bit ofwork teaching English. And my grand plan was,
(09:44):
Seoul was going to be a pit stop on the way tothe UK where I was going to study my Master's in
International Relations. However, I mean, I foundSeoul really fascinating and while I was there,
a friend of mine suggested that I enrolled in oneof the local universities there, which was quite
good and was at the time trying to up its gamewith international students, and was offering
scholarships. And so as a joke, I applied, andthey accepted me, which I was slightly surprised
(10:09):
by. They were quite patronising with theiracceptance, they did a few times ask if I was,
you know, going to be able to cope with theworkload. But they accepted me ,and they
offered to pay for me. So yeah, I ended up doingan international relations degree in Seoul at one
of their best universities. Then after that, Iworked for a couple of random companies in Seoul,
(10:30):
sort of doing translation and editing, then endedup working for a quango for the Korean government,
then out of that moved back to New Zealand,ended up working for the government there,
and public service apparently is a thingthat I've always been destined to do,
because I've been doing that ever since.OF: Which would be now how many years?
TB (10:49):
I think it would be about 10 years now. Yeah. OF
come to China with certain assumptions that youthought "OK, well, there could be similarities -
because it's a Confucian society - which actuallyweren't the same as you experienced in Korea?
That's exactly right. I thought that, actually, yes, China would be quite similar
to Korea and would have that real Confuciansort of component to it, that driving ethos and
(11:13):
thought. And it doesn’t. I mean, Confucianismhas really well and truly been erased in this
country, by the last 70-odd years of, you know,socialism/communism, whatever you want to call it.
OF (11:30):
You surprise me actually, that you say it's been wiped out, because in my experience,
especially when I talk to Chinese people, theystill are quite proud of that Confucian heritage,
and they'll still link it back. And Ithink what I've heard is that there's a
layering above Confucianism, but it'sinteresting to hear that actually,
you think it has been wiped out entirely.TB: Well, you don't see the same level of, sort
of, adherence to ritual and protocol. So you dosee some of it. So I mean, it's probably not fair
(11:55):
to say it's been wiped out. I think the disciplinepart is still, sort of, adhered to quite strongly.
And you see that side of Confucianism in a lot ofthe way government works here, a lot of the way
corporate culture works here, and that sort of…And a really good example of it actually - just
thinking about recent changes in Shanghai - isthe way they're rolling out the recycling rules,
(12:18):
or the waste management rules, where it's adiscipline-orientated system. You get it right,
and you're fine; you get it wrong, and you'repunished. And it's about that almost ritualistic
discipline. But I mean, if you go beyond that,which I think is just a cultural remnant,
which sort of just hangs around the same way thatall Anglos in the UK are essentially Christian by
(12:43):
moral ethic, but not by practice, or faith -or not necessarily by practice or faith, some
of them might be - you know, Confucianism doesn'treally exist here, you don't see the same level of
adherence to age and protocol, and that hierarchythat you see in Korea, where Confucianism still
exists in quite a strong way. You definitely don'tsee the household structure being organised in the
(13:06):
same way. You know, it's uncommon to hear ofmen in Korea cooking their families at night.
And here in China, like I mean you know, I workwith a bunch of men who do go home and cook for
their families on a regular basis, because that,in China, is a thing that men do. That egalitarian
spirit that communism - or socialism, however youwant to classify it - has, has definitely been
(13:31):
embodied more, and that that runs counterto Confucianism in quite a strong way.
Going back to life in China then, do you live in a place near other diplomats? Like, do you meet
at the same events and attend the same functions?TB: We are a very small, insular group. So I mean,
imagine a school of fish (13:51):
they’re all grey and shiny, and that's kind of us, you know. You know
where we are, because we hang out a lot together.Not necessarily socially, but definitely at work
events, I see the same eight or nine poor soulsat most things they go to. We develop camaraderie.
OF (14:11):
Going back to something you said earlier, when you said part
of your job is to help Kiwis in distress…TB: Yeah, I mean, they're never good stories.
If they're coming to us, it's particularly bad.You know, most people, particularly in the West,
have this sort of aversion to involving governmentin their life. So I get involved, it tends to be
because it's either a criminal matter, or it'sjust generally something that's awful enough
(14:37):
that requires a diplomat being involved. Youknow, that’s… it’s always a really unpleasant
situation. But it's also a deeply rewardingsituation, because if you can walk out of that,
where you felt like you’ve helped someone- if you have someone who's just managed to
take their partner's body home after a suicideor a death, and they're emailing you to thank
(15:00):
you for the work you did - that’s… that feels thatyou actually helped, and it's the one time where I
feel like we actually shine a wee bit, and we'reno longer grey beige bureaucrats, we're plaid.
What about other situations? TB
being a diplomat is you do get to do allsorts of different things you never thought
(15:21):
you’d do. And it's fun in that it's rewarding andchallenging. It's not always, at the time, fun.
So I've had the joy of, you know, being almosturinated on in an aeroplane, which was just,
you know, one of those joys where at the time,you're just utterly horrified and you hate all
humanity. But it makes a really good bar story.OF: Well, thanks so much for your time, Tom,
(15:48):
it was really interesting. Now to Part 2.TB: Cool.
[Part 2]OF: Question 1, what is your
favourite China-related fact or piece of trivia?TB: At the moment, I'm just, I'm really stuck on
this one thing I heard this afternoon, which isthat the skin of durians is not considered organic
matter. And so, when you talk about the Shanghairecycling regime that they're introducing,
(16:11):
and where you put certain items of your householdwaste: if you have a durian, It is not food waste.
Because of…? TB
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
TB (16:27):
I do. And this has been my favourite word since day three of being here. It's 外网 [wàiwǎng],
I'm probably brutally mispronouncing it. Butit's the external internet. You know, we're in
China where you have the firewall. So you have theinternal internet, and then you have 外网 [wàiwǎng],
the internet the rest of the world has. And I justlove the fact that they've had to invent a word
(16:50):
for what the rest of us just call ‘the internet’.OF: Yes. F you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?TB: That's such a hard question, because there's
so many things I would not miss about China. Imean, not the least, the ongoing irritation I
have right now, where every internet site andnew site I read is currently unavailable. And
(17:15):
I find it disappointing and slightly sad thatthat is becoming a more frequent occurrence,
where you know, you can't access the news.But actually, the thing I think I'd miss the
most and not miss the most is the same thing. Andthat is the delivery service you have here. Like,
I love how easy it is to get food, I love the factthat you can dial up on your phone 100 different
(17:40):
types of cuisine, and it will get deliveredwithin 30 minutes. And it's all amazing. I'll
miss the convenience of that. What I won't missis just the pile of plastic and crap that you're
left with afterwards. And the way that that'sincentivised this really awful behaviour - which I
noticed even amongst myself and my family and mycompatriots - of decadence and consumerism, in
(18:03):
a way which is quite harmful to the environment.And so I try to be socially responsible that way,
and try to only order from places which don't useplastic for example, or are more sustainable in
the way they produce their food and deliver. Buteven then, you're still… it's still that sort of
crass consumerism that convenience has produced.OF: Is there anything that still
(18:27):
surprises you about life in China?TB: Oh, everything about life in China surprise
me, I spend every day constantly amazed. If thereisn't at least five things which slightly freak me
out, then I’m probably not leaving my bedroom.OF: Where's your favourite place to go out,
to eat, to drink, or to hang out?TB: Ah, no this is a very hard one,
(18:48):
because again, Shanghai is just full of amazingplaces. There is one place I particularly love. So
on the outside it's concrete, and it screams out“You will be murdered in here.” Like, for example,
its name - as far as I was aware for ages - was‘Cocktail.’ ‘Cocktail’, very faded. But one day,
(19:08):
we were desperate for somewhere to have adrink. Our kids had been really bratty all day,
we were just really frazzled, but we didn't reallywant to go anywhere. So I saw that place, I saw
it was open, the lights were finally on for thefirst time we’d walked past it. So we went in, and
inside it was this amazing, clean, semi-welcomingenvironment, where somebody clearly really been
(19:31):
into the Beatles, and had just embraced the, sortof, the 60s mod vibe in a really bizarre way. So
it turns out the bar’s called ‘Beagle.’OF: ‘Beagle’? Never heard of it.
No, you can still smoke all you want inside - that’s the downside - but the cocktails,
they were so annoyingly good.OF: What is the best or
(19:51):
worst purchase you've made in China?TB: I've only had two really bad experiences
buying things here. And both of them have been,like, buying things online. Because who shops in
person these days? One time I ordered something,and it just never arrived, which is disappointing,
but I only spent 10块 [kuài], so I didn't actuallycare. But another time I ordered - because I was
(20:12):
desperate to get it - a bicycle repair kit,because my bike’s tire had stopped working
properly, and I was like trying to work outwhy. And I was “ It’s probably just got a flat
somehow, I’ll get the repair kit, I'll rip outthe tire, and I'll work out what's going wrong”.
So I ordered this thing, and they promisedthey would deliver it the next day. And sure
enough the next day something arrived, but it wasjust a tube of glue. But not even bicycle glue,
(20:34):
just glue. So that was probably the worst.OF: Wow. Well, I mean, you can fix
a bike with glue, I can see the logic.TB: I quite like using my hands. So it’s
one thing I do miss about here. So I'm not a handyperson, don't think that I'm good at these things,
but like one of the things I was veryproud of in New Zealand was building a
(20:56):
deck in the back of our house. Like, thedeck is terrifying. And so I wouldn't,
like, ever try to get any awards for how wellit's built. But it was really fun building it.
OF (21:07):
I'm very disappointed by how you pronounced that word. With your Kiwi accent,
I was expecting something a lot funnier.What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
TB (21:16):
So unfortunately, I don't use stickers. So, Barack Obama in 2008, when he was elected
president, was the first president to be givena phone. And he wrote messages on his phone in
proper prose. So he would write full sentences,and never abbreviate anything. So I was quite
inspired by that. And I had a couple of friendswho were also, sort of, along that pedantic
(21:39):
line. And the look of disdain when I would send asmiley face was enough that I've just never been
able to do it. I keep on wanting to, I see thesepeople who do it. But then, in my line of work,
the emoji could be misread in so many ways. And itwould be quite hilarious… I mean, I really wish I
could, because it would be so fun to just put upa ‘Bring It’ sticker or something, and see what
(22:01):
would happen. But then, yeah, it would be awkward.OF: Yeah, I guess if there's one profession where
I can forgive you for not using stickers, itwould be yours, but I am still disappointed.
Ah, just can you imagine a 65-year-old Ambassador trying to
navigate which is the appropriate emoji?Do you use ‘waving cornfield’? Or do you
(22:24):
use ‘hot dog’? Aubergine aubergine aubergine!OF: OK what about this question, then? Is
this within your diplomatic parameters?What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
I have done 노래방 [Noraebang], which is the Korean version of KTV. I sing in the way that
a diplomatic personality should, so dogs howland screech in the distance. So I try not to
(22:48):
do it very often. But my song of choice isPsy’s ‘Champion’, which is a song he did,
I think in 2004 or 2005, right before he gotbanned from Korean media for smoking marijuana.
OF (22:59):
Well, you're certainly burnishing your Korean credentials right there. Which is funny,
since we're not in Korea, actually, Tom.TB: No well I need to find a good Chinese song.
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely on?
TB (23:14):
So, the media and internet here is a bit difficult. I do like… There are quite a few
places I do like, I really like China Skinnyfor their economic reporting, and these very
interesting things that often aren't picked up on.And they just have a really fun approach to it.
OF: Well, thank you so much, (23:34):
undefined
Tom. And before you scoot off, the last thingI ask everyone who is sat in that chair is,
out of everyone you know in China, who would yourecommend that I interview for the next series?
TB (23:45):
So my referral would be Tim Jackson, who's a patent attorney, originally from New Zealand,
but now working in Shanghai. He worksin a really interesting field for China,
IP rights, patents and trademarks as a,sort of, emerging field. And there's a
lot of really interesting stuff happening. SoI think he'll have some quite fun and possibly
quite confusing stories to tell you all.OF: Great, I can't wait to meet Tim,
(24:08):
and thank you again.TB: Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: I hope you enjoyed that one,
especially if you're a fan of all things Kiwi.I may have gone down the obvious route with
references to ‘Flight of the Conchords’, butI think I deserve some credit for not saying
anything about flightless birds, or dairycows, or Lord of the bloody Rings. But here
(24:29):
is a China/New Zealand reference that I couldn'tresist, did you know that China in fact produces
around 50% of the world's kiwi fruits. Chinais the world's number one kiwi fruit producer,
with New Zealand actually ranked third. So whois in the second spot? Anyone? Anyone? Italy.
Lots of photos from today's episode, pleasecheck out @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
(24:53):
or @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or join thecommunity on WeChat by adding me on my ID:
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you there myself.There is Tom's object, his battered phone;
there are photos that he shared withme from his days at the WTO in Geneva;
as well as some other everyday imagesfrom life as a New Zealand diplomat.
And I've also included an image whichdescribes Tom's favourite word or phrase
(25:16):
外网 [wàiwǎng], which actually comes from 国外网络[guówài wǎngluò], the internet outside of China.
Apart from all the other details that wecovered, the one thing in particular that
I'd like to hear from you about, is if you haveany strong opinions on whether China is in fact,
still a Confucian society or not. If you hadany examples of things that you've experienced
(25:37):
in the workplace, or just in everyday lifethat makes you believe one way or the other,
then it would be great to hear from you about it.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; artwork byDenny Newell; and extra support from Milo de
Prieto and Alston Gong. We have another artisticepisode coming up next week, so I’ll see you then.
[Trailer]TB: My phone basically looks like a 15 year old’s
(00:05):
after he's been out for an all-night drinkingbinge, which is at times slightly embarrassing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
So it turns out Gigi from last week'sepisode has a lot of fans. There are
(00:25):
many people out there who had read her andAnna Holmwood’s translation of the Legends
of the Condor Heroes. And the good news forthose people is that Gigi’s work continues,
and she's aiming to release the fourthbook in the season in 2021. And no,
I can't get you a discount. I also forgot tomention last week that I first met Gigi at a
party in Shanghai hosted by my friends Sophieand Thibaud, so a belated thank you to them.
(00:47):
This week, we switched from the world ofliterature to the world of diplomacy. Today's
conversation is with Tom Barker, who is a NewZealand diplomat in Shanghai. I first met Tom
last year through a mutual friend, Gabby Gabriel,so my second shout-out of the day goes to Gabby.
And as for Tom himself, it's not often we getto hear on record from someone in his field,
(01:08):
so I was very grateful to him for taking thetime to speak with me. He somehow managed
to be very frank and personable without sayinganything that would lead to a diplomatic fallout.
And before we get on to the interview, letme just give you a quick Coronavirus update,
something which I'm sure if keeping today's guestvery busy these days. So it's March 10th 2020,
and the main update this week is that anyonecoming into China from countries such as Korea,
(01:32):
Italy and Iran now need to go intoquarantine at a location where they
can be kept under medical observation. So this isnew, previously people were being asked to manage
their own self-confinement. Otherwise,there's no updates to life in Shanghai,
although I do just want to say… Why onearth does everyone outside of China seem
to be stocking up on toilet paper? I didn't evenunderstand the connection to the virus. I mean,
(01:55):
hand sanitiser and face masks, yes. But toiletpaper? I've been in China for the last five weeks,
and I've never seen a shortage of toilet paperhere. Anyway, now it's me who is on the verge of
causing a diplomatic incident, so maybe I shouldstop talking and let's get on with the show.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you,
Tom. I'm here with Tom Barker. Tom is the NewZealand Deputy Consul General for Shanghai
TB (02:18):
Hi. OF
any conversation, the first thing I asked youor any guests is, what object have you brought?
I brought my phone, the most tedious, boring, ubiquitous object everyone has. But for those who
work in my line of work, it's also the chain thatshackles us to our job. I mean, at least for me,
it's an object which I have on me all the time,quite literally, it has to be on my person 24/7.
(02:44):
And it's a way that I can be contacted all time.So it's just… it literally is the ball and chain,
which anchors me to both my job and tothe way I exist when I'm in Shanghai.
OF (02:54):
That must be mainly for security reasons, I'm guessing.
TB (02:57):
It is, it's just information we have is so vital, and the way that we communicate with
each other is so vital, that it becomes reallyimportant you always have your phone - or whatever
means you're using to communicate to the world -on you. You know, I'm from a very small country,
New Zealand has 3.9 - no, sorry, 4.9 - millionpeople. So, you know, we're a small country. And
(03:17):
so when we lose things like an iPhone, peoplenotice and they get very grumpy about it.
OF (03:21):
Interesting. And does that also extend to other aspects? So I guess social media
in general must be very tightly controlled.OF: Yeah, I mean, I don't have a social media
presence. That's for a variety of reasons,one of which is just that you have to be very
careful of what you say, when you represent agovernment. There are examples - a few other
(03:43):
country's governments, I should say - where peoplehave inadvertently, after a couple of couple of
drinks, sent out a social media message theyprobably shouldn't have. And then, you know,
the repercussions of that are quite awful. Well,personally awful, for the rest of us in the world:
fairly hilarious. But… and so I try to, sort of,restrict what I do as much as possible. And one
way you can restrict that is just by keepingyourself as low-key as possible. So we have
(04:07):
our official social media presence, which youknow, we mediate and moderate through a variety
of checks and balances, most of which are just,you know, the usual tedious things where you will
write something and then nine people above youwill vet it, edit it, and correct it. You know,
that's just any bureaucracy. But personally, Idon't do much in the way of social media. So I
have WeChat. But I have very limited amount ofpeople on it. I have Facebook, but I think just
(04:31):
my parents are on. And I think that's all I have.OF: Right. Let's go back to the phone then,
seeing as it's the object you brought.TB: I mean, yeah, this phone is a very
typical sort of bureaucratic device. It's a blackiPhone. Black, because people like to imagine we
exist in the shadows. Actually, we kind of moreexists in the beige or the grey. And I mean,
(04:52):
the one thing that's kind of unusual about it,I guess, is that it has a security screen which
prevents anyone from seeing what I'm reading fromother sides. But because, you know, these things
are invented by bureaucracies, the security screenis quite large, it sticks up quite a bit further,
which means that none of the iPhone covers andprotective devices work very well on it. So every
(05:13):
time I put it down, it gets scratched. Everytime the phone falls, it gets scratched. So my
phone basically looks like a 15 year old’s afterhe's been out for an all-night drinking binge,
which is at times slightly embarrassing.OF: Well, obviously the first thing that comes
to my mind when I think of a New Zealanddiplomat is ‘Flight of the Conchords’.
You're nodding knowingly over there.TB: Yeah, I mean, it's a reference you
(05:37):
hear quite often. I mean, sadly, it's not thatinaccurate. Our consulates are usually just two
or three people. We often do have a man calledMurray. So ‘Flight of the Conchords’, I mean,
from my perspective as a New Zealander, was justan iconic skit show, but they were picked up
by HBO and I have to admit that I've only everseen a couple of their HBO shows, because I've
(05:59):
never lived in the right countries to be able towatch it when they were on. But one of the ongoing
conceits of it was, they were based in the U.S.and they would go into the consulate general's
office in the U.S. And it would be basicallya tiny wardrobe-sized office with a man called
Murray who was the official diplomat of record,who would then give them very bad advice. I'd like
(06:24):
to think we don't do the very bad advice part. ButI mean, when you compare us to every other embassy
or consulate in the world, we are tiny. I'vebeen to rather hilarious negotiations where I'll
walk in at the WTO - because I used to be a WTOnegotiator - and I'd walk into these meetings with
the Americans. And there'll be 15 people on oneside of a table, and then me, and if I was lucky,
(06:48):
my colleague on the other side of the table.OF: Nice. So there are elements actually
that they did get kind of right in that show.TB: Parody always has that element of truth,
that’s what makes it so hilarious.The smallness of New Zealand,
and also the overly friendly sort of attitude.I think those are things that we do quite well,
(07:09):
you know, where you try to beas helpful as possible. We try
to be useful, we try to be proactive.OF: With New Zealand being so small,
like, the conceit is that I can say “Do youknow X from this city? Do you know Y from
that city?” And actually, you probably do.TB: Yeah. So I mean, I've spent time in the
UK where that is a drinking game. You go into arandom person's house for… they’re having a party
(07:31):
or something. And all sudden, they'll be like “Oh,there are two Kiwis here. Let's see who they know
in common!” And you're suddenly forced to sitnext to someone and recite names and locations,
until you have a person in common. And thereally annoying thing is, often it works.
What about with the guys from the ‘Flight of the Conchords’ themselves? Do
you have any connections with those guys?TB: Admittedly, I do. I was at Victoria
(07:53):
University at the same time they were,and spent time hanging out with them,
though more preferably. Mostly because the wifeof one of them - I’m not going to say who - was
a very good friend of mine, and so yeah.OF: Well, there you go. The game does work,
we have proof. And so, in termsof the consulate, which part do
(08:14):
you work in, and what's the day in the life?TB: So I mean, I work in the political section,
as opposed to the trade promotion section. BecauseI used to be a trade negotiator, and I've worked
in climate change, my role sort of encompassesthose two areas, primarily. I work in the trade
and economic section. So I do a lot of reportingaround what's happening in the local economy, sort
of how we help businesses interface in China. Ialso do a lot of work around, sort of the consular
(08:41):
side, which is providing assistance and care todistressed Kiwis. I spend an awful lot of time
doing speeches. Most bureaucrats and diplomats arejust generally boring nerds, and yet somehow we’re
asked to go out to these places and try and beexciting, and represent this incredibly dynamic,
innovative country. And we are the opposite ofthat. And then I spend a lot of time researching
(09:03):
what China's looking at doing, and the policythey're doing, to try and work out where New
Zealand can either work with China to promotethings - like for example, climate change - or
where we can sort of try and influence China intoa direction which we think is more beneficial for
us, for example in trade negotiations anddeveloping regional trade architecture.
(09:23):
Well, there you go, that’s very well summarised. And you said that,
as part of your experience, you were inGeneva with the WTO. So how did you end
up here in China? What's your career background?TB: After I finished university, I went to Seoul
to visit a friend, and to do a little bit ofwork teaching English. And my grand plan was,
(09:44):
Seoul was going to be a pit stop on the way tothe UK where I was going to study my Master's in
International Relations. However, I mean, I foundSeoul really fascinating and while I was there,
a friend of mine suggested that I enrolled in oneof the local universities there, which was quite
good and was at the time trying to up its gamewith international students, and was offering
scholarships. And so as a joke, I applied, andthey accepted me, which I was slightly surprised
(10:09):
by. They were quite patronising with theiracceptance, they did a few times ask if I was,
you know, going to be able to cope with theworkload. But they accepted me ,and they
offered to pay for me. So yeah, I ended up doingan international relations degree in Seoul at one
of their best universities. Then after that, Iworked for a couple of random companies in Seoul,
(10:30):
sort of doing translation and editing, then endedup working for a quango for the Korean government,
then out of that moved back to New Zealand,ended up working for the government there,
and public service apparently is a thingthat I've always been destined to do,
because I've been doing that ever since.OF: Which would be now how many years?
TB (10:49):
I think it would be about 10 years now. Yeah. OF
come to China with certain assumptions that youthought "OK, well, there could be similarities -
because it's a Confucian society - which actuallyweren't the same as you experienced in Korea?
That's exactly right. I thought that, actually, yes, China would be quite similar
to Korea and would have that real Confuciansort of component to it, that driving ethos and
(11:13):
thought. And it doesn’t. I mean, Confucianismhas really well and truly been erased in this
country, by the last 70-odd years of, you know,socialism/communism, whatever you want to call it.
OF (11:30):
You surprise me actually, that you say it's been wiped out, because in my experience,
especially when I talk to Chinese people, theystill are quite proud of that Confucian heritage,
and they'll still link it back. And Ithink what I've heard is that there's a
layering above Confucianism, but it'sinteresting to hear that actually,
you think it has been wiped out entirely.TB: Well, you don't see the same level of, sort
of, adherence to ritual and protocol. So you dosee some of it. So I mean, it's probably not fair
(11:55):
to say it's been wiped out. I think the disciplinepart is still, sort of, adhered to quite strongly.
And you see that side of Confucianism in a lot ofthe way government works here, a lot of the way
corporate culture works here, and that sort of…And a really good example of it actually - just
thinking about recent changes in Shanghai - isthe way they're rolling out the recycling rules,
(12:18):
or the waste management rules, where it's adiscipline-orientated system. You get it right,
and you're fine; you get it wrong, and you'repunished. And it's about that almost ritualistic
discipline. But I mean, if you go beyond that,which I think is just a cultural remnant,
which sort of just hangs around the same way thatall Anglos in the UK are essentially Christian by
(12:43):
moral ethic, but not by practice, or faith -or not necessarily by practice or faith, some
of them might be - you know, Confucianism doesn'treally exist here, you don't see the same level of
adherence to age and protocol, and that hierarchythat you see in Korea, where Confucianism still
exists in quite a strong way. You definitely don'tsee the household structure being organised in the
(13:06):
same way. You know, it's uncommon to hear ofmen in Korea cooking their families at night.
And here in China, like I mean you know, I workwith a bunch of men who do go home and cook for
their families on a regular basis, because that,in China, is a thing that men do. That egalitarian
spirit that communism - or socialism, however youwant to classify it - has, has definitely been
(13:31):
embodied more, and that that runs counterto Confucianism in quite a strong way.
Going back to life in China then, do you live in a place near other diplomats? Like, do you meet
at the same events and attend the same functions?TB: We are a very small, insular group. So I mean,
imagine a school of fish (13:51):
they’re all grey and shiny, and that's kind of us, you know. You know
where we are, because we hang out a lot together.Not necessarily socially, but definitely at work
events, I see the same eight or nine poor soulsat most things they go to. We develop camaraderie.
OF (14:11):
Going back to something you said earlier, when you said part
of your job is to help Kiwis in distress…TB: Yeah, I mean, they're never good stories.
If they're coming to us, it's particularly bad.You know, most people, particularly in the West,
have this sort of aversion to involving governmentin their life. So I get involved, it tends to be
because it's either a criminal matter, or it'sjust generally something that's awful enough
(14:37):
that requires a diplomat being involved. Youknow, that’s… it’s always a really unpleasant
situation. But it's also a deeply rewardingsituation, because if you can walk out of that,
where you felt like you’ve helped someone- if you have someone who's just managed to
take their partner's body home after a suicideor a death, and they're emailing you to thank
(15:00):
you for the work you did - that’s… that feels thatyou actually helped, and it's the one time where I
feel like we actually shine a wee bit, and we'reno longer grey beige bureaucrats, we're plaid.
What about other situations? TB
being a diplomat is you do get to do allsorts of different things you never thought
(15:21):
you’d do. And it's fun in that it's rewarding andchallenging. It's not always, at the time, fun.
So I've had the joy of, you know, being almosturinated on in an aeroplane, which was just,
you know, one of those joys where at the time,you're just utterly horrified and you hate all
humanity. But it makes a really good bar story.OF: Well, thanks so much for your time, Tom,
(15:48):
it was really interesting. Now to Part 2.TB: Cool.
[Part 2]OF: Question 1, what is your
favourite China-related fact or piece of trivia?TB: At the moment, I'm just, I'm really stuck on
this one thing I heard this afternoon, which isthat the skin of durians is not considered organic
matter. And so, when you talk about the Shanghairecycling regime that they're introducing,
(16:11):
and where you put certain items of your householdwaste: if you have a durian, It is not food waste.
Because of…? TB
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
TB (16:27):
I do. And this has been my favourite word since day three of being here. It's 外网 [wàiwǎng],
I'm probably brutally mispronouncing it. Butit's the external internet. You know, we're in
China where you have the firewall. So you have theinternal internet, and then you have 外网 [wàiwǎng],
the internet the rest of the world has. And I justlove the fact that they've had to invent a word
(16:50):
for what the rest of us just call ‘the internet’.OF: Yes. F you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?TB: That's such a hard question, because there's
so many things I would not miss about China. Imean, not the least, the ongoing irritation I
have right now, where every internet site andnew site I read is currently unavailable. And
(17:15):
I find it disappointing and slightly sad thatthat is becoming a more frequent occurrence,
where you know, you can't access the news.But actually, the thing I think I'd miss the
most and not miss the most is the same thing. Andthat is the delivery service you have here. Like,
I love how easy it is to get food, I love the factthat you can dial up on your phone 100 different
(17:40):
types of cuisine, and it will get deliveredwithin 30 minutes. And it's all amazing. I'll
miss the convenience of that. What I won't missis just the pile of plastic and crap that you're
left with afterwards. And the way that that'sincentivised this really awful behaviour - which I
noticed even amongst myself and my family and mycompatriots - of decadence and consumerism, in
(18:03):
a way which is quite harmful to the environment.And so I try to be socially responsible that way,
and try to only order from places which don't useplastic for example, or are more sustainable in
the way they produce their food and deliver. Buteven then, you're still… it's still that sort of
crass consumerism that convenience has produced.OF: Is there anything that still
(18:27):
surprises you about life in China?TB: Oh, everything about life in China surprise
me, I spend every day constantly amazed. If thereisn't at least five things which slightly freak me
out, then I’m probably not leaving my bedroom.OF: Where's your favourite place to go out,
to eat, to drink, or to hang out?TB: Ah, no this is a very hard one,
(18:48):
because again, Shanghai is just full of amazingplaces. There is one place I particularly love. So
on the outside it's concrete, and it screams out“You will be murdered in here.” Like, for example,
its name - as far as I was aware for ages - was‘Cocktail.’ ‘Cocktail’, very faded. But one day,
(19:08):
we were desperate for somewhere to have adrink. Our kids had been really bratty all day,
we were just really frazzled, but we didn't reallywant to go anywhere. So I saw that place, I saw
it was open, the lights were finally on for thefirst time we’d walked past it. So we went in, and
inside it was this amazing, clean, semi-welcomingenvironment, where somebody clearly really been
(19:31):
into the Beatles, and had just embraced the, sortof, the 60s mod vibe in a really bizarre way. So
it turns out the bar’s called ‘Beagle.’OF: ‘Beagle’? Never heard of it.
No, you can still smoke all you want inside - that’s the downside - but the cocktails,
they were so annoyingly good.OF: What is the best or
(19:51):
worst purchase you've made in China?TB: I've only had two really bad experiences
buying things here. And both of them have been,like, buying things online. Because who shops in
person these days? One time I ordered something,and it just never arrived, which is disappointing,
but I only spent 10块 [kuài], so I didn't actuallycare. But another time I ordered - because I was
(20:12):
desperate to get it - a bicycle repair kit,because my bike’s tire had stopped working
properly, and I was like trying to work outwhy. And I was “ It’s probably just got a flat
somehow, I’ll get the repair kit, I'll rip outthe tire, and I'll work out what's going wrong”.
So I ordered this thing, and they promisedthey would deliver it the next day. And sure
enough the next day something arrived, but it wasjust a tube of glue. But not even bicycle glue,
(20:34):
just glue. So that was probably the worst.OF: Wow. Well, I mean, you can fix
a bike with glue, I can see the logic.TB: I quite like using my hands. So it’s
one thing I do miss about here. So I'm not a handyperson, don't think that I'm good at these things,
but like one of the things I was veryproud of in New Zealand was building a
(20:56):
deck in the back of our house. Like, thedeck is terrifying. And so I wouldn't,
like, ever try to get any awards for how wellit's built. But it was really fun building it.
OF (21:07):
I'm very disappointed by how you pronounced that word. With your Kiwi accent,
I was expecting something a lot funnier.What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
TB (21:16):
So unfortunately, I don't use stickers. So, Barack Obama in 2008, when he was elected
president, was the first president to be givena phone. And he wrote messages on his phone in
proper prose. So he would write full sentences,and never abbreviate anything. So I was quite
inspired by that. And I had a couple of friendswho were also, sort of, along that pedantic
(21:39):
line. And the look of disdain when I would send asmiley face was enough that I've just never been
able to do it. I keep on wanting to, I see thesepeople who do it. But then, in my line of work,
the emoji could be misread in so many ways. And itwould be quite hilarious… I mean, I really wish I
could, because it would be so fun to just put upa ‘Bring It’ sticker or something, and see what
(22:01):
would happen. But then, yeah, it would be awkward.OF: Yeah, I guess if there's one profession where
I can forgive you for not using stickers, itwould be yours, but I am still disappointed.
Ah, just can you imagine a 65-year-old Ambassador trying to
navigate which is the appropriate emoji?Do you use ‘waving cornfield’? Or do you
(22:24):
use ‘hot dog’? Aubergine aubergine aubergine!OF: OK what about this question, then? Is
this within your diplomatic parameters?What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
I have done 노래방 [Noraebang], which is the Korean version of KTV. I sing in the way that
a diplomatic personality should, so dogs howland screech in the distance. So I try not to
(22:48):
do it very often. But my song of choice isPsy’s ‘Champion’, which is a song he did,
I think in 2004 or 2005, right before he gotbanned from Korean media for smoking marijuana.
OF (22:59):
Well, you're certainly burnishing your Korean credentials right there. Which is funny,
since we're not in Korea, actually, Tom.TB: No well I need to find a good Chinese song.
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely on?
TB (23:14):
So, the media and internet here is a bit difficult. I do like… There are quite a few
places I do like, I really like China Skinnyfor their economic reporting, and these very
interesting things that often aren't picked up on.And they just have a really fun approach to it.
OF: Well, thank you so much, (23:34):
undefined
Tom. And before you scoot off, the last thingI ask everyone who is sat in that chair is,
out of everyone you know in China, who would yourecommend that I interview for the next series?
TB (23:45):
So my referral would be Tim Jackson, who's a patent attorney, originally from New Zealand,
but now working in Shanghai. He worksin a really interesting field for China,
IP rights, patents and trademarks as a,sort of, emerging field. And there's a
lot of really interesting stuff happening. SoI think he'll have some quite fun and possibly
quite confusing stories to tell you all.OF: Great, I can't wait to meet Tim,
(24:08):
and thank you again.TB: Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: I hope you enjoyed that one,
especially if you're a fan of all things Kiwi.I may have gone down the obvious route with
references to ‘Flight of the Conchords’, butI think I deserve some credit for not saying
anything about flightless birds, or dairycows, or Lord of the bloody Rings. But here
(24:29):
is a China/New Zealand reference that I couldn'tresist, did you know that China in fact produces
around 50% of the world's kiwi fruits. Chinais the world's number one kiwi fruit producer,
with New Zealand actually ranked third. So whois in the second spot? Anyone? Anyone? Italy.
Lots of photos from today's episode, pleasecheck out @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
(24:53):
or @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or join thecommunity on WeChat by adding me on my ID:
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you there myself.There is Tom's object, his battered phone;
there are photos that he shared withme from his days at the WTO in Geneva;
as well as some other everyday imagesfrom life as a New Zealand diplomat.
And I've also included an image whichdescribes Tom's favourite word or phrase
(25:16):
外网 [wàiwǎng], which actually comes from 国外网络[guówài wǎngluò], the internet outside of China.
Apart from all the other details that wecovered, the one thing in particular that
I'd like to hear from you about, is if you haveany strong opinions on whether China is in fact,
still a Confucian society or not. If you hadany examples of things that you've experienced
(25:37):
in the workplace, or just in everyday lifethat makes you believe one way or the other,
then it would be great to hear from you about it.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; artwork byDenny Newell; and extra support from Milo de
Prieto and Alston Gong. We have another artisticepisode coming up next week, so I’ll see you then.
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