The Dance Curator (Sabrina CHEN, Shanghai International Dance Center)

As Programme Director of China's first and only theatre complex specifically dedicated to dance, Sabrina Chen knows a thing or two about reading the China arts scene. In our chat, she compares the audiences in Shanghai to those of other cities in China and around the world. To many people (your host included) contemporary dance can at first seem like an esoteric and abstract art form, which can only appeal to a small group of expert connoisseurs. But Sabrina helps to dispel this idea, and her passion is, for want of a better word, contagious. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:22 - Part 1 18:12 - Part 2 24:53 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
[Trailer]SC: In Argentinian tango, the guy has to always
lead the woman. So I have to obey him. Onlywhen we dance.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.

(00:25):
Today's episode is with Sabrina Chen, whois in charge of what gets shown at the Shanghai
International Dance Center, which is the firstand only complex of theatres specifically
dedicated to dance in the whole of China.To the uninitiated - and I definitely include
myself in that category - contemporary dancecan come across at first as scary and esoteric.

(00:47):
But Sabrina dispelled some of those fearsfor me, and actually since we recorded this
interview, I've been to a handful of reallygood performances. So if she can convince
me, then I hope that she can do the same foryou, if you're also relatively new to the
art form.
Obviously, the performances I saw that I mentionedwere not held recently. This episode is going
out on March 17 2020. And all venues - liketheatres, stadiums, and even most parks - remain

(01:13):
shut in Shanghai due to the coronavirus outbreak.But having spent six or so weeks now in lockdown,
we are slowly beginning to emerge from self-isolationhere. And it's probably only a matter of weeks
before they do reopen. There’s no complacencyhere, though. And I think it will personally
take me a much longer time to get used tobeing around larger numbers of people again,

(01:35):
especially since I was never a fan of crowdsto begin with. My thoughts go out to everyone
in other parts of the world now who are juststarting to experience what we've been through
over here. If you're listening from one ofthose places, then I hope that the relatively
optimistic news from China will at least giveyou some comfort. It isn't easy, but it will
get better again. My advice is of course,keep yourselves informed, but limit your news

(01:59):
intake to one short period in the morningand one in the evening. Any more will drive
you crazy. If your gym is closed, follow anexercise app, there's really a lot that you
can do just using your body weight. And finally,just keep calm and keep happy. Be patient
with your loved ones, over-indulge a littlein naughty treats, and don't lose your sense

(02:21):
of humour.
[Part 1]OF: I’m here with Sabrina Chen. Sabrina
is - now let me see if I got this right - you'rethe programme director of the Shanghai International
Dance Center.SC: Yes.

OF (02:32):
Well, the first question I need to ask you is, what is the object that you've brought
today?SC: The object is actually a prop we used
in our previous performance.OF: OK, show me. OK, here it is, she’s getting
it out of her bag. What? OK.SC: It’s like a piece of garbage.
Can you describe what we're looking at here?

SC (02:54):
Yeah, it’s actually coming from sketch paper. The original size of this paper was
the same size as the stage. Because the artist- the dancer - painted at the same time as
dancing on the floor. So he painted with hisbody.

OF (03:10):
And that's part of the performance? Or this is just what you do to protect the stage?

SC (03:14):
No, it’s part of the performance. OF
Yes, it's a very special performance. The name is ‘Inked’. The performer inked
on the paper. So actually, after the performance,lots of audience members came up to ask for
it. Because it has already become garbage,we might as well just rip it off and give

(03:35):
it to the people who liked it.OF: OK
The artist’s name is Aakash, who is a British Indian, and this was his second
time in Shanghai. So he was very happy tosee the people appreciate his work so much,
even wanting to keep the garbage.OF: Well, it’s awesome. You know, the whole

(03:58):
art of dance is so abstract, especially whenit comes to what you can bring as an object.
So you managed to make something work prettywell. Well, tell me about what you do at the
International Dance Center.SC: OK, I'm the Programme Director of the
China International Dance Center Theatre.Because actually, the Shanghai International

(04:18):
Dance Center is a geographic concept. In thiscomplex, there are two dance schools, two
dance companies, as well as two theatres.So my responsibility is to curate for the
two theatres. We have to run about 250 performancesa year between the two theatres. So one third

(04:41):
of the performances come from internationalcompanies, so my job is to invite them to
China - to Shanghai - to perform.OF: OK, so one third is from abroad. How does
it work for the two thirds from China?SC: Out of the two thirds from China, one
third of them is actually from the residencecompanies. Because I just mentioned, we have

(05:06):
two dance schools and two dance companies.And they are the Shanghai Ballet and the Shanghai
Dance Theatre Company. They are two of thebiggest dance companies in China. So they
are very stable companies, who will performin our theatre. And the rest of the performances
are from the visiting companies, who comeand rent our venue.

OF (05:29):
So I guess, when I ask you “How did you get into this, as a Programme Director?”
my initial assumption would be that you werea dancer. Is that true?

SC (05:39):
No. OF
I was a dancer, maybe during Chinese New Year or Christmas in front of my family. But
not a professional dancer. I studied journalismat my university. Then I went to the UK to
study a postgraduate degree in Hotel Management.So that's nothing to do with dance. However,

(06:03):
since I was four, I started learning Chinesedance, and a little bit of ballet. When I
was very young, I always had a passion fordance. So after I grew up, after I got a job,
I still went to dance lessons, during my leisuretime, after work. So for me, dance is always

(06:25):
something that's been connected with me veryclosely. I came back to Shanghai to work as
a PR agent in an international PR firm. Stillnothing to do with art yet. And suddenly one
day, I realised I don't really care aboutbrands or luxury stuff. Maybe it's other people's

(06:50):
lifestyle, but for me, my lifestyle is goingto the theatre. And this is something I want
to do for eight hours a day.OF: Great.
Yeah. OF
But you're pretty young, right? To be a ProgrammeDirector.
Compared to European countries, yeah. I'm 34. When I travel to European countries,

(07:12):
I see lots of Programme Directors above 40or 50. But actually, it's not that young in
China, because lots of new theatres were built.For example, in our company the average age
of the staff is only 28. So I'm actually,relatively, the old one.

OF (07:31):
Oh wow. Amazing. And when was it opened? SC
Right. SC
open three years, we have already establishedour reputation in China, even internationally.
Because we are actually the only one complexthat caters to dance in China. It’s not

(07:57):
very usual, even compared to other countries.OF: So how does dance, then, fit in with the
other cultural elements of a city like Shanghai?SC: I can see it stands quite alone, compared
to other communities such as classical music,theatre, musicals. Musicals are getting really

(08:18):
big now these days. So dance has a reallysmall community. However, I think because
of our unique position, we have brought moreand more audience into the community for dance.
Then tell me about this community, what are their tastes? Because dance can be very
classic, and dance can be very avant garde,can’t it. Like, for me, I'm not somebody

(08:42):
who understands much about dance, but I candefinitely see those two extremes. Where on
that spectrum do you think the tastes levelsright now are in Shanghai?

SC (08:49):
We target contemporary dance mostly. So I cannot say what is the taste of the Chinese
or the Shanghai audience, because there aretoo many of them. Yeah, they're very diverse.
But I can say the audience for our theatre,their tastes are very international. Yes.

(09:13):
When I travel to the UK, sometimes I findit quite funny, I actually found that the
British audience is very similar to the Shanghaiaudience.

OF (09:21):
Oh right. Can you explain why? SC
- because I always go to Sadler's Wells, whichis the major dance theatre in London - and
in terms of programme, we have very similartaste. And all the programmes we present are

(09:41):
received very well by the audience. So thatmeans, even though the programme of the company
are performed for the first time in Shanghai,the Shanghai audience can get it straightaway.
They can recognise, they can distinguish whichis a good company and which is not, even without
telling them much about it to them. So I thinkthe Shanghai audience are very smart. They're

(10:06):
very open minded, they have had a good relationshipof cultural exchange with the expat international
culture. Yeah.OF: So you mentioned the strange link between
the audience tastes in, at least, Shanghaiand London. What about, then, from places
outside of the UK? Like other kind of dancegroups? What is their particular style? And

(10:28):
how does that gel with the Chinese audience?SC: In continental European countries, for
example France or Germany, their artists arevery different from British artists. I think
the British artists or British companies arequite commercial in some way. Maybe this is

(10:48):
why the Shanghai audience are quite similarto the British audience, because Shanghai
is such a commercial city. But in France orGermany, you will see actually the artists,
sometimes they don't care about the marketthat much. So they can focus on what they
believe, their artistic direction. So someof their programmes are extremely avant garde,

(11:13):
cannot be understood at all. Yeah.OF: Interesting. And have you had any of those
shows at least approaching that level of avantgarde in Shanghai? What was your experience
there?SC: Yes, because we have two theatres: one
Grand Theatre, one Experimental Theatre. TheGrand Theatre has 1,000 seats. So in that
theatre, we usually programme performancesthat’s not completely commercial, but at

(11:40):
least can be accessed by the people easily.But in the Experimental Theatre, we will programme
some avant garde companies. For example, lastyear we had a solo show from a Japanese company,
where the artist was standing in the centreof the stage for an hour, and didn't move

(12:03):
at all. So all the dance movements were completedin that one spot in the centre of the stage.
OK. Well, this is where you lose me as an audience. But I'm sure there are people
out there who do appreciate that.SC: Actually we do have this concern. Because
the theatre has just been opened. And contemporarydance is still a quite new form of art for

(12:27):
the Chinese audience. And it’s early stagesin developing the audience. We don't want
to scare them away. That's why when we programme,we still need to think about what can be accepted
by the Chinese audience. And, “Is thereanything else we can add, to educate them,

(12:49):
to broaden their view, so they can acceptmore forms of art?” But I think the speed
of growth is very fast in China, because avery big difference between the Chinese audience
and the European audience is actually thatin the European theatres, you see lots of
older generation people in the audience; however,in Shanghai the audience that comes to see

(13:13):
the performances in our theatre are very young,they are under 35. And lots of younger kids,
they come with their parents. So these people,they're very open-minded. So for them, even
though it’s maybe a slightly avant gardeshow, they will not say “OK, it's not my
cup of tea.” They would try to think aboutit like “Is this something that I haven't

(13:38):
seen before? I didn't enjoy it that much,is it because I didn't know it that well?
So I will maybe try something more, somethingelse.” So I think that the Shanghai audience
are very open.OF: Well, that's a result then. So there you
go, you have these programmes, but you'rethe one who has to curate this.

SC (13:57):
Yes. OF
and hotels and maybe PR, how has that helpedyou in your job?
I think it helps a lot. Maybe because working in theatre is about managing people.
It’s about making networks. And that's exactlythe same as journalism or PR. PR is about

(14:22):
anticipating your target market. Marketingis very important. How we describe the programme,
which part of the programme is the most attractivefor the audience, and how we deliver the message
to the audience. Because the performance onlylasts for two days, usually only two shows.

(14:46):
So I think the journalism background makesme more sensitive about my audience.

OF (14:51):
Interesting. What about the feedback afterwards? I guess there are two groups, one would be
the very new audience, and the other wouldbe maybe the people who would consider themselves
experts.SC: You know, the interesting thing is, I
don't think the experts can sometimes seeclearly about the performance. Because they've

(15:11):
learned the techniques, sometimes they framethemselves in a certain way. They have a stereotype
from what they've learned, they have a definitionof what dance is. However, sometimes with
the ordinary audience, they don't have thisboundary, this stereotype. For me, I don't
see actually that the expert audience aresuperior to the ordinary audience. For contemporary

(15:38):
dance, it’s not an examination. So the mostcommon questions we got from our audience
is “What's it about? What do you want tosay?” And our artists will always respond
“What do you see?” Of course, they willtalk about why they created this programme,

(16:00):
what's their inspiration from. But the mostimportant thing is, they will encourage our
audience to think their own way, not to justseek a standard answer.
And we're talking a lot about Shanghai. What about the rest of China? Do you see a
big difference between Shanghai and otherparts?

SC (16:20):
In terms of contemporary dance, I think yes. Shanghai audiences are more open minded,
as I said many times. Sometimes it's moredifficult to market a contemporary dance company
in other cities. That's why Shanghai is thefirst market, they have to test, to help develop

(16:40):
their reputation in other areas of China.So I think the audience in Shanghai are very
lucky.OF: And how about now, are you are you doing
any dance in your own free time?SC: Yes. Over the last few years, I learned

many types of dance (16:56):
belly dance, jazz dance, contemporary dance, ballet, Chinese classical
dance, folk dance. But recently, I realisedI want to keep doing Argentinian tango.

OF (17:10):
Oh right. SC
elegant.OF: Nice. So you're doing classes?

SC (17:19):
Yes, I'm doing classes every every week. OF
And I did Argentinian tango with my husband during my wedding. It was our first dance.

OF (17:32):
And so, is he into it? Or he just did it because you are?

SC (17:35):
Well, I think he started it because we need to do the first dance. But afterwards,
he realised he wants to keep doing it. I thinkthe reason why is because in Argentinian tango,
the guy has to always lead the woman. So Ihave to obey him. Only when we dance.

OF (17:57):
I love it. I'm not gonna ask any more questions about your marriage. Well, thank
you so much, Sabrina. That was really, reallyinteresting.

SC (18:08):
Thank you so much. OF
[Part 2]OF: Part 2 is our ten quick questions. So
I will not delay any further and just jumpstraight in. Question 1, what is your favourite
China-related fact?SC: The cultural diversity. Because China

(18:29):
is so big. And when you travel to Beijing,you realise the city is completely different
from Shanghai. Some people like it, some peoplehate it. For me, I really enjoy this diversity.
And this is the reason why I decided to comeback to China after my studies, because I
found so many interesting things going onin this country.

OF (18:53):
Right. I think it's it's more like a continent than a country, right?

SC (18:57):
Yes. OF
in Chinese?SC: Yes, recently, I have a favourite colloquial
word in Chinese called 吸猫 [xīmāo]. 吸[xī] means ‘suck’, 猫 [māo] is ‘cat’.
Actually, you know, 吸猫 [xīmāo] is aword coming from… taking drugs. Because

(19:21):
cats are so adorable, and adored by so manyyoung people in China. So sometimes we feel
like we are addicted to them.OF: Oh.
Myself, I’m actually a cat person. I have two cats. And I'm addicted to them. In
our company, we adopted a cat from the rooftopof our theatre. So everyone is addicted to

(19:46):
the cat. So I like the word 吸猫 [xīmāo].OF: Right. So it's like taking drugs, but
the drug is a cat.SC: Yeah.

OF (19:54):
What's the Chinese for ‘toxoplasmosis'? SC
Yeah, that's a long word. I'll tell you later. What is your favourite destination
within China?SC: The south west of China, where the pandas
are.OF: Right. If you left China, what would you
miss the most, and what would you miss theleast?

SC (20:16):
I would miss hot pot the most. OF
Miss least, the traffic. OF
surprises you about life here in China?SC: The square dance ladies. Every time we
invite an international company to Shanghai,they will ask me “Where can we see the square

(20:37):
dance ladies?” Because they want to jointhem. Sometimes I will go to see the square
dance with the artists. And they found out,the square dances are so difficult, even for
professional dancers. And it's amazing tosee so many old ladies still enthusiastic

(20:59):
about dance so much, every day after work.My mother in law is one of them. Actually,
when we just opened the theatre, we had tomake a promotional video of the theatre. So
in the video, we invited a group of squaredance ladies. And I was observing them while
they were making the video. As soon as theystarted dancing, everyone was so happy. You

(21:27):
know, I was very moved by the scene. So eventhough sometimes they make a noise in the
park, in the public space, I think it's reallya good lifestyle for old people.

OF (21:38):
Well said. In case anyone out there has never seen this, it’s almost every town
square where there's an empty space, you'rewalking home from work - because it's normally
at that after work time - and you'll passtwo or three groups. And sometimes their music
will be clashing with each other, becausethey're too close to each other. But I also
love it. What is your favourite place to goout, to eat, to drink, to hang out?

SC (22:01):
Well if you put me into a fashionable place, I will still enjoy it. But maybe I
would not proactively choose to go. Maybeit's because I grew up in Shanghai, I've seen
too many of them. For me, I feel a littlebit fed up with it. Yeah, so that's why I
like to go to places that are more cosy. Ah,maybe the supermarket! You know 盒马鲜生

(22:26):
[Hémǎ Xiānshēng]?OF: What’s that? 盒马先生 [Hémǎ Xiānshēng],
so Mr. Hémǎ?SC: Er… yes, yes? It's magic. So when you
order seafood, actually they will put it ina bag and they will hang the bag on a track.
So it's like an automatic system, you canreceive your goods. It's really funny.

OF (22:50):
OK, what is your favourite WeChat sticker? SC
floor.OF: OK, let's see this. You've just sent it
to me, right?SC: Yes.
OK, so I know this guy from LINE, right? SC
It’s growing on me. I've seen it through a couple of loops now, and I'm laughing. OK.

(23:12):
I'm a fan. I'm gonna use that one. What isyour go-to song to sing at KTV?

SC (23:19):
Ah, Bohemian Rhapsody. OF
Yeah. OF
One of the reasons I like this song very much is because it's similar to a musical.

OF (23:32):
Right. SC
For sure. And are you into musicals as well, are you?

SC (23:39):
Yeah, because I used to work in a musical company too.

OF (23:42):
Oh, which one was that? SC
the Chinese version of Mamma Mia and Catsin China.
Yeah right. OK, there's a whole other podcast there, but we have to move on. Finally,
what other China-related media or sourcesof information do you use?

SC (24:01):
I kind of rely on everything, WeChat, 微博 [Wēibó], official or unofficial media,
international websites as well.OF: Very good. Well, thanks so much, Sabrina.
You know that I only have one more questionleft. And that is, out of everyone else who

(24:22):
you know in China, who do you think I shouldinterview next?
I think you should interview Michelle Qu, who is a very interesting lady. She is
doing improvisational comedy.OF: Mmm. In English or in Chinese?
Both. Mainly in Chinese, but I know she was doing it in English too.

OF (24:46):
Wow. Amazing. I can't wait to meet Michelle. Well, thanks so much, Sabrina.

SC (24:51):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: Sabrina’s story is one which I find
very inspiring. She could have been somebodywho had spent her whole career in dance. But
personally, I've always thought that the mostwell-rounded experts are people who have experiences
from multiple disciplines. With Sabrina, herbackground in journalism, hospitality, and
PR - together with her lifelong passion fordance - are for me the exact reasons why she

(25:14):
is a great fit for the role she has.
Let's look at the images that I've postedon social media this week. Please check out
@mosaicofchina_ on Instagram or @mosaicofchinaon Facebook, or join the community on WeChat

by adding me on my ID (25:25):
mosaicofchina. This week there is Sabrina with her object, the
piece of inked paper; there’s her favouriteWeChat sticker; there are images depicting
the amazing phrase 吸猫 [xīmāo], one ofwhich I borrowed from Josh at the Mandarin
Slang Guide, or ‘MSG’ podcast. He dida recent episode about Chinese wordplay, so

(25:47):
definitely check that out if you're into yourMandarin. Oh, I also posted a video of that
fish being magically delivered at the 盒马鲜生[Hémǎ Xiānshēng] supermarket. And 盒马鲜生
[Hémǎ Xiānshēng] actually means ‘HémǎFresh’, not ‘Mr. Hémǎ’. The two different
’Xiānshēng’s both have exactly the sametone. There is a photo of Sabrina and her
husband doing the Argentinian tango at herwedding. It looks annoyingly cool. So to offset

(26:11):
the cool, there's also some photos of ladiesdoing the town square dancing. And Sabrina's
favourite China-related fact was about thecultural diversity across China. So I was
wondering what image to post to reflect this.And then I remembered that there had been
an app that was released a few months agoto commemorate the 70th anniversary of the
founding of the People's Republic of China,which allowed you to superimpose on a photo

(26:35):
of your face the traditional costumes of allthe minority groups of China. So if you want
to see 24 weirdly filtered, culturally appropriatedversions of me in different national costumes,
it's quite something.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, artworkby Denny Newell, and extra support from Milo
de Prieto and Alston Gong. Stay healthy andstay happy everyone, and I will be back next

(26:59):
week.
[Easter Egg]SC: My parents were a little bit concerned
about what I was doing. Once I got this job,they suddenly changed their attitude, and

(27:23):
they would speak to their relatives like “Yeah,we encouraged her to do whatever she likes
to do”. You know, “We never stopped herdoing anything she wanted to do.

OF (27:33):
Right. SC
If it worked out well, then they take credit, right?

SC (27:40):
Yeah.