June 5, 2023 • 54 mins
In three seasons of the Mosaic of China podcast, we've already covered a large chunk of the A-Z of life in China. In today's episode, we're fast-forwarding to the end, not just because Zhou Yan's name starts with a 'Z', but because we're talking about the subject of death. In her work as a volunteer in hospices and 'Death Cafés' in Shanghai, Zhou Yan is doing more than just dispelling the superstition and stigma that surrounds the subject of death in China. She also demonstrates how to live life with more intention, and with more reverence to those around us. The episode also includes catch-up interviews with: Chang Chihyun from Season 02 Episode 03 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-03-chang-chihyun and Nick Yu from Season 01 Episode 13 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-13-nick-yu 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 03:09 - Part 1 24:01 - Part 2 39:33 - Outro 43:38 - Catch-Up Interview [1] 50:56 - Catch-Up Interview [2] Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-22-zhou-yan Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: This is the second question you've answered
which includes toilets.
ZY (00:06):
This is very important.
Yeah.
OF (00:09):
Hey, you're very practical.
Let's talk about death… and ****.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
In case you’re wondering about my voice,I’ve got COVID-19.
(00:31):
Luckily I’d done most of the work for thisepisode before getting sick, so I’m going
to release it now and then go on a break fora few weeks.
Today’s episode is with Zhou Yan, a Chineselady.
But there’s an immediate connection withthe guest from the last episode - the commercial
(00:51):
airline pilot Michael Hundegger from Austria- because Zhou Yan also spent many years in
Austria before returning to China.
I mention this because she has a really niceway of sometimes using a German figure of
speech rather than an English one.
So listen out for when she says things like‘Buddhismus’ instead of Buddhism, ‘Papier’
(01:15):
instead of paper, ‘history’ instead of‘story’.
It’s very subtle, but it’s one of thosethings that I love picking up on when speaking
with someone whose background includes a realmix of cultures.
Speaking of past episodes, one of my favouriteswas the one with Louise Roy from Season 02
(01:36):
Episode 06 where we talked about the way Chinahandles childbirth.
Well today’s episode is about the otherside of that story, the process of dying.
The subject matter gets quite personal attimes, so I just wanted to warn you to please
proceed with caution if you’re in a sensitiveheadspace right now.
(02:00):
Let me also tell you right from the startthat my original conversation with Zhou Yan
was really really long, there’s actuallyalmost 30 minutes of bonus content in this
week’s PREMIUM version of the show.
So if you already know that this is a topicthat you’re interested in, save yourself
some time, head to mosaicofchina.com and immediatelysubscribe to that version so that you can
(02:25):
listen to our conversation in full.
And finally, this is one of those episodeswhich justifies the format of the show, because
it allows us to have quite a serious tonein Part 1 but we can then switch to a completely
different tone in Part 2.
So if you’re at any point thinking thatthe conversation is getting a little heavy,
(02:50):
hang in there!
And I mean hang in right until the end, becausewe also have two excellent catch-ups with
previous guests of the show, both of whomare also definitely worth listening into.
So let me shut up and let’s finally getstarted.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming today.
ZY (03:12):
You’re welcome.
OF (03:13):
I haven't said your name yet because I'm always nervous about tones.
So ‘Zhou Yan’, but how do you say it withthe tones?
ZY (03:19):
周燕 [Zhōu Yàn].
OF (03:20):
周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], so it’s 1st tone, 4th zone.
ZY (03:22):
Yeah OF
The first thing I will ask you is, what objectdid you bring that in some way describes your
life in China?
I thought long about it.
And then finally, my decision is my phone.
My cellphone?
OF (03:38):
Oh.
ZY (03:39):
Yes.
OF (03:40):
OK.
I must say this is not the first time someonehas brought their phone.
So I'm a little bit disappointed.
ZY (03:46):
Mm-hm.
OF (03:47):
But telling me the reason.
ZY (03:48):
OK, my reason was that the smartphone has changed my life so dramatically.
I came back to Shanghai at the beginning of2014…
OF (03:58):
When you say “Came back,” where were you?
ZY (04:01):
From Austria.
And at that time, I think I had no more than20 WeChat contacts.
And now I have over 2,000.
OF (04:09):
Mmm.
ZY (04:10):
Actually, I hate it, that WeChat totally changed the way how I work.
I really miss the time when we only had phoneand emails.
OF (04:19):
Mmm.
ZY (04:20):
I found out that I might have…
I don't know how to pronounce the word, butI can't see how to just distances.
This ability is reduced.
OF (04:29):
Ah.
It’s damaging your eyesight, you mean?
ZY (04:32):
Yes.
I really would like to have a job where Idon't have to check my phone all day.
OF (04:38):
Yeah.
ZY (04:39):
Yeah.
But I don't know if it's possible to haveit in Shanghai.
OF (04:42):
It's interesting.
You've chosen the object that defines yourlife, but in a bad way, right?
ZY (04:47):
In a bad way, yeah.
But maybe I will say “Bye bye”, and justcheck my phone once in the evenings then.
OF (04:53):
If I asked you what it is that we were going to talk about, how would you describe
our topic of conversation?
ZY (05:00):
It’s that I’ve decided to engage as a volunteer in hospice service for the last
three years.
OF (05:10):
Right.
And this is particularly interesting, becausethe way that China and the Chinese deal with
death, in some ways it's very similar to anywhereelse in the world.
And in other ways, it's a little bit heightened,there's a little bit more of a stigma.
ZY (05:23):
Yes.
OF (05:24):
So I'm extremely interested to talk about this with you.
ZY (05:26):
OK.
OF (05:27):
So tell me about the organisation that you volunteer for.
ZY (05:30):
OK, in Chinese it's called like ‘Hand in Hand’
OF (05:33):
手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
ZY (05:34):
Yeah.
It was already founded in 2008.
I think they are one of the very first NGOsin China who started to do this.
OF (05:42):
Where were you at that time?
ZY (05:44):
I was still in Austria.
OF (05:46):
Oh, so you lived in Austria for a long time?
ZY (05:48):
For a long time.
Like, almost 12 years.
OF (05:50):
Well I want to find out the story about how you got from Austria to what you're doing
now.
But let's jump forward for now.
ZY (05:56):
Yeah.
OF (05:57):
And let's talk about what it is that the organisation does.
ZY (06:00):
They do basically two things.
First of all, they train volunteers like meand then send us to hospices, where we know
that the only patients allowed to be thereare those who will not live for more than
six months.
OF (06:20):
Right, yes.
And do they know that?
ZY (06:23):
Not always.
Because in China, many families tend to askthe doctors “Ah, don't tell him (or her)
the truth, he will be so frightened.
So it's better that he doesn’t know that.”
OF (06:37):
Mmm.
And what is this hospice?
This is a separate institution from a hospital?
ZY (06:43):
It's usually in a hospital.
OF (06:46):
Yes.
ZY (06:47):
But it's usually then also a separate part.
For example, half of a floor.
Or even the whole floor, if the hospital supportsthat.
In most hospices, very basic services areprovided.
Because hospice rooms here in Shanghai arein the very basic-level hospitals.
Hospitals in Shanghai are divided into threelevels.
(07:08):
First are the community hospitals; the secondlevel is the district hospitals; and the third
level is city hospitals.
And most of the hospice rooms are locatedin the community hospitals.
OF (07:20):
Which is the lowest level.
ZY (07:21):
The lowest level.
OF (07:23):
OK.
ZY (07:24):
Yeah.
OF (07:25):
How then do you get involved?
Do you contact them, or do they contact you?
ZY (07:29):
So usually the standard process is that a hospital will contact our organisation and
say “We would like to have a volunteer team”.
Then our NGO will start to look for people.
They usually do training twice or three timesper year, so people can just register for
the training.
(07:49):
And then after the training, we will justgo to the hospice, and as volunteers we go
there once a week.
And there we will just have an internal discussion,to talk about the things that happened over
the last week.
And then we will go into the rooms, and goaround and find our patients.
Sometimes ones that you will stay with forseveral weeks; sometimes it's just random,
or just a feeling (08:14):
who you feel that you would like to stay nearby, to him or to her.
OF (08:20):
Can you give me some examples of when you have dealt with an individual?
ZY (08:24):
Old people here in China, they are not used to showing their emotions or talking
about their feelings.
They are usually only taking care of the veryphysical things, like getting you something
to eat, or “Do you need water?”, thingslike that.
OF (08:40):
Yes.
That's how they express love to each other,right?
ZY (08:42):
Yes.
So when we are there, usually we will tryto help them to recall what they have done
when they were young; anything that they haveachieved; any good times they have had; things
like that.
To find…
Not to find, but to see the meaning of theirlife.
OF (09:01):
Mmm.
ZY (09:02):
Which has been always there, but they were not able to see it.
One example was a patient, who was a veryspecial one.
He just talked very aggressively to everyone,even to his wife.
It was always, like, blaming you.
OF (09:18):
Mmm.
ZY (09:19):
So another volunteer kept on talking with him, that he should express his feelings in
the right way to his wife.
And of course, this took some time.
And then one day as his wife came to his bedagain, he said “I'm sorry”.
He just said this one sentence.
And usually his wife sat distant to the bed.
(09:43):
But when she heard this sentence, she wasshocked at the beginning, and then started
to cry.
And then since then every time she came again,she started to sit next to him on the bed.
OF (09:55):
Mmm.
ZY (09:56):
Yeah.
OF (09:57):
So what you can do then is to bridge this communication between people.
So it's not just you and the patient, butyou're creating an atmosphere where the patient
and their family can talk openly.
ZY (10:07):
Yeah.
Because in hospice we have a ‘value’,I don't know how we should call that.
But usually we believe there are five thingsyou should do.
To say “Love”; to say “Sorry”; tosay “I forgive you”; to say "Thank you”.
And the last thing is - if you have done thefirst four things all very well - the last
thing is to say “Goodbye”.
OF (10:27):
Yeah.
ZY (10:28):
And it won't be that difficult then.
OF (10:29):
Mmm.
ZY (10:30):
That's what we are usually trying to help our patients to do.
OF (10:33):
So when you meet someone, you can - in your mind - see which stage they're at?
ZY (10:37):
No no no, it's not fixed in this order.
And maybe it's also not necessary for peopleto do all of this.
OF (10:45):
Mmm.
ZY (10:46):
Maybe sometimes only one or two of them is already enough.
OF (10:49):
And then you said that when you joined this NGO you got training.
So this is the training that you received?
ZY (10:55):
Yes.
They don't think they are just training volunteersfor hospice work.
They believe this is also the chance for meto be a better me.
It's not just focused on details.
Our founders will always help us to see thewhole thing, and ask me to think about “Why
was this a problem?” or “Why this happened?”
Because it’s usually because of me, somethinginternal here.
OF (11:18):
Mmm.
ZY (11:19):
And only when we see the origin where the problems were made, then you can deal
with the whole thing much better.
OF (11:25):
Well let's jump to that topic, then.
Because this is one of the questions thatI wanted to ask you, which is why you do this.
Why do you volunteer to be around dying people?
ZY (11:35):
Well, I've been asked this question several times.
I have an official answer, and an unofficialanswer.
OF (11:43):
Good.
Give me the official one first.
ZY (11:46):
OK.
The official answer first is that I alwayslike to work as a volunteer.
Which is true, since I was a little girl Ialways liked to do that, to help people.
This ‘service’ character, you know, Ilike to help people.
Shanghai is actually a very great city, whereyou can always find enough people for general
volunteer service.
OF (12:05):
Oh.
ZY (12:06):
So I thought then “Well there must be some area which are maybe more difficult,
and which cannot find that many people”.
So I came to the idea of hospice work.
OF (12:16):
OK.
ZY (12:17):
Yeah.
OF (12:18):
Official answer complete.
What about the real answer, then?
ZY (12:21):
The real answer is just a real for this moment, it can be changed in the next few
years again.
The real answer is that since I've startedto do this - at first it was hospices, and
after that it was the Death Café, which we'lltalk about later - I came to the reality that
I personally got much more from this volunteerservice than I can do for others, actually.
OF (12:47):
Mmm.
ZY (12:48):
In the first year when I started to hospice work, one very obvious change is that I started
to see my family.
I mean ‘see’ my family.
Family for me used to be like water for fish.
OF (13:02):
Right.
ZY (13:03):
They are just here.
Well, it doesn't mean that we don't have agood relationship.
We have.
What it really means when I started to ‘see’them is, for example, I started to realise
that my grandmas and grandpas will not bethere some day.
OF (13:19):
Yeah.
ZY (13:20):
In the past I just went there, you know, like ‘doing my job’.
Like once a month, to visit them, to havea lunch with them, that was all.
And then after I started to do hospice work,I thought "What can I do for them?
And what do they really want to have?"
For example I found out that my grandma alwayswanted to see a panda in reality…
OF (13:39):
Right.
ZY …Because she only saw them on televisionbefore.
Oh.
ZY (13:43):
And she was already over ninety, and she couldn’t really walk very far.
So I took a day off from work, and took mygrandparents to the Shanghai Zoo, and my grandma
really saw a panda for the first time in herlife.
OF (13:56):
Wow.
ZY (13:57):
Things like that.
Then with my grandpa to the cinema, yeah.
OF (14:00):
It's very lucky.
Because a lot of us, we lose our grandparentsbefore we have the chance to really ‘see’
them.
ZY (14:07):
Yeah.
OF (14:08):
And does that also translate to your relationship with your parents too?
ZY (14:12):
Yes.
We used to quarrel a lot.
We have a very good relationship, but sinceI was a kid the way we communicated was shouting
to each other, and not really talking peacefully.
Because this was actually the way they weretalking to each other, I just learned it from
them.
OF (14:32):
Ah.
ZY (14:33):
But I started to change.
Because one thing is very clear for me (14:34):
the best work of one's life can just be oneself.
So I started to change myself.
OF (14:42):
Ah.
ZY (14:43):
And then - maybe one or two years later - I started to see that they were also starting
to change the way they talk to each other.
OF (14:49):
Mmm.
ZY (14:50):
Yeah.
If you go into the street and ask people “Heydo you know that we will die someday?”
they will think “Are you crazy?
Of course, I know”.
But most people know it like ‘1+1=2’.
They are not really taking this into theirlife, and into the decisions.
And I just don't want it that maybe I leftmy parents’ apartment this morning, and
(15:12):
we have just quarrelled with each other again,and then maybe an accident happens to me.
And that was the last conversation we hadwith each other.
OF (15:19):
Yes.
ZY (15:20):
Then it will be a bad farewell.
Yeah.
OF (15:23):
Yes.
I can definitely see how that would make youlive more intentionally every day.
ZY (15:28):
Yes, more aware of the life that I'm having.
OF (15:33):
You've mentioned the Death Café.
This is separate from your job in the hospitalitself.
Can you explain that?
ZY (15:40):
The Death Café is actually a second very important part of what the NGO is doing.
OF (15:45):
Right.
ZY (15:46):
And the Death Café actually originates from England.
OF (15:49):
OK, so what is the concept?
ZY (15:51):
Bernard Crettaz is his name.
So he first came up with this idea, becausedeath is the only thing which will happen
in our life with 100% certainty.
But we don't take so much time to look intothis topic, and to talk about it, and to get
ready for it.
So he first came up with this idea, and itstayed on paper only.
(16:13):
Jon Underwood, he first held a Death Caféaccording to this idea, and he also got some
support from Professor Bernard Crettaz.
He first had this Death Café, I think, in2011 in London.
It took him one year to prepare the DeathCafé.
And do you know why it took him so long?
OF (16:31):
No.
ZY (16:32):
He couldn’t find a place.
OF (16:33):
Ah yeah.
ZY (16:34):
He was not able to find a café that was willing to have this kind of talk.
So he held the first death café in the worldin his mother's house, in the basement.
OF (16:45):
How funny.
So it's called ‘Death Café’, but it doesn'thave to be a café.
ZY (16:49):
Yeah, it's important that you have coffee or tea, just make yourself comfortable and
relax.
And let's talk about death.
OF (16:57):
I see.
ZY (16:58):
Yeah.
OF (16:59):
OK so what happens in this death cafe?
You, for example, are you one of the leaders?
ZY (17:03):
Yes.
I think currently we are already over 600people in over 50 cities in China.
OF (17:10):
Oh wow, yeah.
ZY (17:11):
Yeah.
But it's totally volunteer-based.
So it doesn't happen regularly, it’s onlywhen I have time, and when I feel like it.
Then I will organise it.
And it's actually just a relaxing afternoontea, but we still have some certain principles.
So first of all, the topic should be focusedon death.
Second of all, we should have respect andlisten to others.
Because I think in China, people judge a lot.
OF (17:36):
Mmm.
ZY (17:37):
So we try not to judge others, just listen to what they are saying.
Because death is very personal.
You cannot say “I don't agree”, and “Youshould think like that”.
So we don't do that.
And if you share your stories, maybe it'sconnected with some religious things.
This is OK, but don't make it, you know…
OF (17:56):
Pushing on others.
ZY (17:57):
Yes.
Like “Buddhism is good”, things like that.
OF (18:00):
Yeah, right.
ZY (18:01):
This is not allowed.
The last thing is that here in the Death Café,we allow emotions to be shared, to flow around
the room.
But when we leave, all the stories we haveheard stay here.
OF (18:12):
Yeah.
ZY (18:13):
But of course, sometimes at the beginning they will be a little bit hesitant and they
will just wait to see what other people say.
And sometimes we will use some small devicesto start the topic of conversation.
For example, I could just take a piece ofpaper, and tear it into small pieces, and
write down random numbers - like 1, or maybe90, or maybe a very very big number - and
(18:36):
mix them up so that everyone can pick up aone.
And the number is the estimated days thatyou can still live.
And then I will ask people to share what theyfeel when they see this number.
OF (18:48):
Mmm.
ZY (18:49):
It’s a very simple but very useful device.
OF (18:52):
That's how you get the conversation started.
ZY (18:54):
Yeah.
OF (18:55):
And then as someone is reacting, they might also bring out their personal story.
ZY (18:59):
Yes, yeah.
OF (19:00):
Do you also recruit volunteers from these groups?
Because it must be hard to find volunteerswho want to do this.
ZY (19:07):
Not that hard, actually.
OF (19:09):
Good.
ZY (19:10):
Not that hard.
For example, last year our NGO, 手牵手[Shǒuqiānshǒu], had this Death Café leader
training in Shanghai, and also in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].
For the quantities that we are able to train,it’s enough for this moment.
OF (19:22):
Yeah.
ZY (19:23):
But for the whole of China, of course it's not enough.
OF (19:25):
Well, exactly.
ZY (19:26):
Yeah.
OF (19:27):
It’s just starting.
But are there any other NGOs like you?
ZY (19:30):
Death Café, I don't think so.
Hospice, yes.
OF (19:33):
Got it.
Well, let's go back to the hospice, becausewhat I want to ask you next is, what do you
see when someone is about to die?
Do you know “OK, this person is only a fewdays away.”
Like, what are the physical things that startto happen?
ZY (19:50):
Um, if you see these people weekly, the first things you would notice is that the
energy is not there any more.
For example, maybe last week she was stillsitting there, and this week she can only
lie there, she's not able to sit up any more.
The second thing is if she would greet youas before or not.
(20:12):
Then if it's getting nearer and the nearerto the end, you will also see the colour of
the skin will start to change.
For example, there will be more and more…
how to say this?
The blue one…
OF (20:27):
Ah, bruises.
ZY (20:28):
The bruises.
There will start to be more and more bruises.
And if you are close enough - usually thefamilies could find out - the ears are getting
more soft.
OF (20:36):
Wait, the ears get soft.
ZY (20:39):
Yes.
This part.
OF (20:41):
I've never heard that before.
ZY (20:42):
Yeah.
OF (20:43):
Huh.
ZY (20:44):
There are actually a lot of signs that you would see, if you really see it very closely
and carefully.
OF (20:50):
Yeah.
ZY (20:51):
If the patient still drinks water as normal, usually it starts with the feet, or also with
the fingers.
Yeah, it's the very furthest part, far awayfrom the heart.
Then you will start to see, they will getswelling.
OF (21:02):
Really.
ZY (21:03):
Because the body doesn't need it anymore.
Because in the last days, the organs havealso slowed down to work.
So they can't really handle all these thingsanymore.
Actually, they don't need to eat then, inthe last days.
It's better to help them to keep the bodyrelaxed and clean, not…
OF (21:19):
Not overworking the organs.
ZY (21:21):
Yes, yes.
OF (21:22):
That makes sense.
ZY (21:23):
Yeah.
OF (21:24):
And so have you actually been there when someone has died?
ZY (21:28):
No, because - not always, but usually - most of the time, most people pass away
in the night, when we wouldn’t be there.
OF (21:36):
Ah.
Really?
ZY (21:38):
Yeah.
OF (21:39):
Do we know why?
ZY (21:40):
It's for different reasons.
If we say medically, we can see it’s becausethe organs usually don't work so actively
as in the day.
OF (21:48):
Yes.
So they rest even more.
So that's when people would normally die.
ZY (21:53):
Yeah.
And if we talk about something not relatedto science, sometimes we also believe that
lots of people just don't want to pass awaywhen their families are still beside them.
OF (22:04):
Yes.
ZY (22:05):
It happens, yeah.
If the family members have been there takingvery good care of this patient, then the patient
would maybe prefer to pass away alone.
Because dying people don't really want todie when it's so noisy and loud around.
Because the last thing the body will loseis hearing.
Even if you see on the machine that the hearthas stopped beating, they can still hear.
OF (22:29):
They can still hear!
ZY (22:30):
For several minutes.
Yeah, for a further several minutes.
OF (22:32):
How do you know that?
ZY (22:33):
It's a science topic, yeah.
OF (22:34):
Oh.
ZY (22:35):
It's very heavy for them, if people then start to cry loudly, you know.
It's very very sensitive.
OF (22:41):
Right, so if you are with someone when they're dying, the best thing to do would
just be to continue being calm after theirheart stopped.
ZY (22:50):
Go on talking to this patient, like “Mom, I will always love you.
And don't worry, I will take care of myself”.
OF (22:56):
Mmm.
ZY (22:57):
Things like that.
Instead of like, just “Ah mom!
Come back!
Why?”
Things like that.
OF (23:03):
Wow, fascinating.
I mean, this whole conversation has been fascinating,Zhou Yan, I really appreciate hearing from
you, not just because we're here in Chinaand this topic is so interesting here, but
just as a human.
We actually could be having this conversationin any country, right?
ZY (23:18):
Yes.
If it's possible, maybe someday this willeven be my job.
At the current moment it’s still not possible,but maybe someday in the future.
OF (23:26):
Right.
As it becomes more accepted, this could becomesomething which is a career.
And you could actually spread it in a moreprofessional way across China.
ZY (23:33):
Yeah.
OF (23:34):
I support you.
I hope that you will end up doing that.
It's obviously your passion.
ZY (23:38):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's my passion.
OF (23:40):
And where can people find out about this?
ZY (23:43):
The WeChat account, it's only available in Chinese.
OF (23:45):
Of course.
ZY (23:46):
Yeah, it’s called 上海手牵手生命关爱发展中心 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu Shēngmìng Guān'ài
Fāzhǎn Zhōngxīn].
If you just look up 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu]on WeChat, you will find us
OF (23:54):
Yes.
So 上海手牵手 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu].
ZY (23:56):
Yeah.
OF (23:57):
Thanks Zhou Yan, we will move on to Part 2.
ZY (23:59):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Part 2.
OK.
OF (24:05):
Are you ready?
ZY (24:06):
Yes.
OF (24:07):
We’ve had a very serious conversation, let’s see if we'll have a little more lightness.
ZY (24:10):
Let’s see.
OF (24:13):
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily
fact?
ZY (24:19):
Well, my favourite fact is actually we have toilets where you squat, you know.
You have to sit.
This is really my favourite part.
Because the public toilets in Europe are alsonot that clean, and then it's really difficult…
I mean, it's a special topic of for women,but…
OF (24:38):
Aha.
ZY (24:39):
I really love it here in China, that we have it.
OF (24:41):
Because you squat, and you don't have to sit on something.
ZY (24:43):
Yes.
OF (24:44):
I think in some parts of Europe, there are still squat toilets.
ZY (24:48):
Oh, really?
OF (24:49):
Yeah.
ZY (24:50):
OK.
I have never seen that.
OF (24:52):
I think…
well…
See, this is where I'm not sure either, becauseI haven't lived in Europe now for 20 years.
But I remember when I was travelling aroundFrance for example, even in France they had
squat toilets.
ZY (25:02):
How many years ago was that?
OF (25:04):
Yeah, maybe 20.
So I don't know.
ZY (25:06):
Yeah.
OF (25:07):
Interesting.
And do you think in China, there will alwaysbe squat toilets?
Or do you think that they will start to phasethem out?
ZY (25:14):
I think there will always be here.
OF (25:15):
Yeah.
ZY (25:16):
It’s a good thing.
OF (25:17):
OK.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (25:18):
undefined
Chinese?
ZY (25:24):
Yes.
It’s ‘无常 [wúcháng]’.
OF (25:27):
无常 [wúcháng], so 无 [wú] as in ‘not’?
ZY (25:31):
Uh-huh.
OF (25:32):
常 [Cháng] as in ‘often’?
ZY (25:33):
Yes, or ‘regularity’. 无常 [Wúcháng].
OF (25:34):
Yeah, so what does that mean?
ZY (25:35):
I tried to look it up in a dictionary.
I don't know if there is really a very precisetranslation, but I think it means ‘randomness’
and ‘nothing is certain’.
OF (25:47):
Oh, I see.
Oh, I like that.
As a concept?
ZY (25:51):
Yes.
Our founder always loved to say that ‘lifeis flowing’.
This is the thing that I got to realise afterI came back from Austria to Shanghai.
Nothing worked in the first three years.
Relationship broke up; job was not that OK;and after 12 years, again back to the family
(26:12):
quarrelling because this was the way thatwe communicated with each other; and my health
also some problems.
And after that I read some psychology books,and also Buddhism, and then I started to realise
that this is actually a feature of life.
OF (26:29):
Ah.
ZY (26:30):
And the thing is not about to rely on things like luck, or horoscope things.
Everything comes back to myself.
Actually, it's all in my hand.
OF (26:41):
Yeah, I like this concept.
无常 [Wúcháng].
ZY (26:44):
Yes.
To realise that life is just random and nothing'sfor certain.
Because it's normal, humans always want tofind a way to explain the whole universe with
several simple rules.
OF (26:57):
Yes.
ZY (26:58):
Because this makes us feel safe.
But I don't think it's possible.
And for me, it's easier if I just accept itsrandomness, and train myself to get so strong
that I can just deal with it.
OF (27:11):
I love it.
ZY (27:12):
Yeah.
OF (27:13):
Thank you.
ZY (27:14):
You’re welcome.
OF (27:15):
Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What is your favourite destination within
China?
ZY (27:20):
Oh, to be honest, I haven't been to so many cities in China.
I think maybe most expats have visited morecities than I have.
But my favourite is 紫金山 [Zǐjīnshān]in 南京 [Nánjīng].
OF (27:31):
Ah.
ZY (27:32):
It's a mountain in 南京 [Nánjīng] city.
OF (27:34):
OK.
Is it the one which has the observatory onthe top?
ZY (27:36):
Yes.
OF (27:37):
Ah.
ZY (27:38):
But my favourite part is not the mountain.
It's rather actually at the bottom of themountain.
There are plain trees.
OF (27:46):
Yes.
ZY (27:47):
Like we also have in Shanghai.
OF (27:48):
Yes, yes.
ZY (27:49):
But - I don't know if they have another species in 南京 [Nánjīng] - it's all so
old and so big, like they are growing intothe sky, and building a very beautiful avenue.
OF (27:58):
Yes.
ZY (27:59):
It’s really amazing.
It's very high.
Have you been there?
OF (28:03):
Do you know what, I've only been to 南京 [Nánjīng] once.
It was when my father came to Shanghai tovisit me, and we did a weekend away together
南京 [Nánjīng].
And we have walked exactly where you're talkingabout.
ZY (28:12):
Ah, in the mountain, or..?
OF (28:14):
Yeah, at the bottom.
ZY (28:15):
At the bottom.
OF (28:16):
At the bottom of the mountain.
ZY (28:17):
Ah OK.
OF (28:18):
Yeah yeah, exactly.
ZY (28:19):
Yeah.
OF (28:20):
And it was like this forest, but it's just 30 minutes from downtown 南京 [Nánjīng].
ZY (28:22):
Yes.
OF (28:23):
Because here in Shanghai, you have to really go three hours to find anything like
that.
ZY (28:27):
Yeah, you are right.
OF (28:28):
That’s why I think 南京 [Nánjīng] is a more livable city in some ways.
In fact, a Chinese lady in Season 01, NiniSum, she actually said 南京 [Nánjīng]
was her favourite destination.
It's her hometown, and she basically was sayingthe same thing.
ZY (28:41):
Ah, OK.
OF (28:42):
So there's a nice connection there.
ZY (28:43):
Yeah.
OF (28:44):
Hello Nini.
ZY (28:46):
Hello!
OF (28:47):
Next question.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
ZY (28:52):
What I would miss the most is, of course, my family.
Because I'm Chinese.
OF (28:58):
And of course you are now so much closer to your family.
ZY (29:02):
Yes.
OF (29:03):
I guess when you lived in Austria for 12 years, maybe you didn't really miss them
so much.
But this time it would be different, right?
ZY (29:09):
You are right.
OF (29:10):
Mmm.
Do they know that?
Like, do they really feel the difference inyour relationship between then and now?
ZY (29:15):
It's a good question.
I think they know it.
Because as what I said before in the firstpart, in the hospice: the five things we should
do, one of them is to apologise.
It's very difficult for people to apologise.
OF (29:28):
Oh my god.
Yep.
ZY (29:30):
In Chinese culture especially, because of this 面子 [miànzi] thing.
OF (29:33):
Yeah.
ZY (29:34):
And I'm also aware that sometimes I should really say sorry to my parents, but it's so
difficult to say, and I start to do one thing.
After we quarrel again, I would just cometo my papa or my mama and just hug him or
her.
It's a ‘sorry’.
OF (29:51):
Yeah.
ZY (29:52):
So I think they know it now that I really have them in my heart.
OF (29:54):
Yes.
ZY (29:55):
Yeah.
OF (29:56):
Nice answer.
And what would you miss the least?
ZY (29:58):
It's what I just mentioned, the ‘face’.
The 面子 [miànzi] thing, which is veryfamous.
OF (30:03):
Yeah.
I don't think, in three seasons, anyone hasreally defined 面子 [miànzi].
So can you define it?
ZY (30:08):
Woah.
Of course, it's different from person to person,but the most common situation is maybe that,
for example, if your leader at work says somethingwrong, makes a mistake, and you point it out,
he lost his face because he's the leader.
OF (30:23):
Mmm.
ZY (30:24):
Or generally, for example, in a dating relationship, usually the boys tend to show
“I know everything.”
And then if you come to a topic that he doesn'tknow, and yet he tries to go on talking with
you about that, and you think "Should I pointit out or not?”
Yeah, such kind of things are everywhere,actually.
OF (30:42):
Yes.
So what is the answer?
In China you basically don't say anything,you just have to nod and say “Mmm, mmm,
mmm”.
ZY (30:50):
Yes.
Just don't make it clear that it was wrong.
OF (30:53):
So actually, you don't like this system.
ZY (30:56):
I don't like it.
Because I've been living in Austria for 12years.
And I studied there, so when I was 19 I wentto Austria.
And there, the culture is very direct.
OF (31:07):
Mm-hm.
ZY (31:08):
When you find out something, and when you think of something, you just speak it
out.
And I really love it, because it's very efficient.
And because it's real.
OF (31:17):
Yeah.
ZY (31:18):
Yeah.
OF (31:19):
When you live your life in China, do you try and blend in some of that Austrian culture
into your relationships?
Or now have you basically ‘gone native’back into the Chinese culture?
ZY (31:30):
It's not that I try to blend in, but I am just like that.
And if I act like that, people will notice“OK, Yan is a little bit different”.
And then they will have to decide how theyreact to me.
OF (31:45):
Mmm.
ZY (31:46):
And those people who stay, they will be the ones that I feel comfortable with.
OF (31:50):
I see.
ZY (31:51):
Yeah.
OF (31:52):
Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
ZY (31:55):
The thing that surprised me the most was that one thing in Shanghai is totally different
now (32:01):
parks and the public toilets.
OF (32:03):
Right.
ZY (32:04):
Parks used to always charge entrance fees, when I left China as a child.
And the public toilets also charged fees.
But now they are all for free.
And the public toilets now, I think 9 outof 10 that I've visited, are all very clean.
OF (32:21):
Yeah.
ZY (32:22):
Yeah.
This really surprised me.
This is very important for me.
OF (32:25):
Hang on.
Yeah, this is the second question you've answeredwhich includes toilets.
ZY (32:30):
This is very important.
Yeah.
OF (32:33):
Hey, you're very practical.
Let's talk about death… and ****. Next question,this is from SmartShanghai: Where is your
favourite place to go out, to eat or drinkor hang out?
ZY (32:47):
Currently, my favourite restaurant is called 望蓉城 [Wàngróngchéng].
OF (32:51):
Ooh.
ZY (32:52):
It’s snakehead fish fillets in a Chinese sauerkraut soup.
OF (32:57):
Wait wait wait wait.
Start again, what the hell?
ZY (33:00):
This fish is called snakehead.
I looked it up in the dictionary.
It's a black fish actually, 黑鱼[hēiyú].
OF (33:06):
I've never heard of this fish.
OK.
ZY (33:10):
Yeah, this restaurant that does it very well.
OF (33:13):
Where is it?
ZY (33:14):
It's a chain, you can find it in lots of places.
OF (33:18):
All right, I'm gonna look it up.
ZY (33:19):
I’ll send you the link.
OF (33:21):
Yes please.
Next question, what is the best or worst purchaseyou have recently made in China?
ZY (33:27):
When I think back to the last years, I think the best purchase I made was…
There used to be a place in the city centre,it was called the ‘Wake Up Dead Experience’.
OF (33:37):
OK.
ZY (33:38):
Yes.
It’s a small place but very well designed.
And they had two price levels, one was 444.
OF (33:45):
Ah, 四四四 [Sìsìsì].
ZY (33:47):
Because four is 四 [sì], like ‘die’ in Chinese
OF (33:50):
Yes.
ZY (33:51):
It’s just a different tone, yeah?
OF (33:52):
So go on, then let's hear you say “four, death, four, death, four, death.”
ZY (33:55):
四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ].
OF (33:59):
Yeah.
ZY (34:00):
And another prize was 777.
七 [Qī], seven, is also a special numberwhich has to do with the seventh day after
someone has passed away, they will come backto see his family again.
OF (34:12):
Oh I see.
ZY (34:13):
Yeah, so a small ceremony would be held within the family.
On the first seven days, and then on the secondseven.
If some families are very traditional andtake it seriously, it could go on to the seventh
seven days, so like 49 days altogether.
OF (34:28):
Mmm.
ZY (34:29):
So that was the price of the ticket.
They kind of had a game designed, and foreach round of the game one person would have
to die and leave.
OF (34:38):
OK.
ZY (34:39):
And then the people who left would take a slide down, and land into…
OK, what's the word?
You know where the baby is formed in the…
OF (34:50):
Oh, womb.
ZY (34:51):
Huh?
OF (34:52):
Womb.
ZY (34:53):
Womb?
OF (34:54):
Yeah.
ZY (34:55):
In the womb.
And here you get reborn.
And then in the womb, you will wait for allthe other people to die, and then you would
all sit together with the moderator of thegame, and she would go through what she thought
is important for you.
So like we simulated the whole process.
It was very interesting.
And that's also where I got to know a doctorwho was working in children's cancer…
(35:16):
how to stay…
‘alleviative’?
OF (35:18):
Oh, cancer alleviative drugs.
ZY (35:21):
Alleviative treatment, yes.
And there she introduced me to 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
OF (35:25):
Oh, so that was how you first started.
ZY (35:28):
Yeah.
OF (35:29):
That would be your best purchase, I understand that.
ZY (35:31):
Yeah.
OF (35:32):
Because that led you to your entire lifestyle now.
ZY (35:34):
Yeah.
OF (35:35):
OK, next question.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
ZY (35:39):
I just sent it to you.
OF (35:41):
OK.
What’s this, can you explain it?
ZY (35:44):
Do you know this figure?
It's Timon.
OF (35:46):
It’s Disney, right?
ZY (35:47):
Yeah, from The Lion King.
OF (35:48):
Yeah, right.
ZY (35:50):
It's a mongoose actually, dancing with a Hawaiian hula skirt.
I really love it.
OF (35:56):
That's just happy one for you, is it?
ZY (35:58):
Yes.
And not just a happy one.
Because in 2021 I met my husband.
OF (36:05):
Congratulations.
ZY (36:06):
Thank you.
I'd been single for seven years before, yeahI've been waiting for him.
He looks very similar to Timon.
For me, for me.
But in the Chinese horoscope, I am the pig.
So he said “Aha OK, then you are Pumbaa."
So it has a small story behind it.
OF (36:25):
I love it.
OK, now I need to have a photo of your husband,and then I can compare.
ZY (36:29):
I will send it to you.
He's totally OK with that.
OF (36:33):
Great.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
ZY (36:36):
It’s a Chinese one.
And it's called in Chinese ‘那些花儿[Nàxiē Huāer]’ which means ‘Those Flowers’.
The song goes like “Those flowers whichI thought would be here forever have all left
me, and I don't know where they are now.
But it's lucky that I was with them when theyblossomed”.
OF (36:57):
Oh, that's very very ‘you’, that's a very Zhou Yan song.
ZY (37:01):
Yeah, but it just reminds me of my school time.
Because I am a person that usually won’tcontacted other people first.
Usually I'm waiting for them to contact me.
OF (37:12):
OK.
ZY (37:13):
So that's why I've lost my primary school mates, junior high school mates.
I have some senior high school mates becausethey approached me first.
OF (37:20):
Yeah.
ZY (37:21):
But I'm just like that.
I still think it was a very nice time thatI had with them together.
OF (37:26):
So they're just last flowers.
ZY (37:27):
Yeah.
OF (37:28):
Is this a depressing song?
Like when you sing it, does everyone startcrying?
ZY (37:32):
No no no.
No, it’s just a very beautiful one.
OF (37:34):
OK, I'll check it out.
And finally, this last question comes fromJustPod, which is the studio we are sitting
in now.
ZY (37:42):
OK.
OF (37:43):
What or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
ZY (37:47):
Listening to dying people, they will teach you a lot.
Dying people have much more wisdom than normalpeople in your daily life.
OF (37:56):
Mmm.
ZY (37:57):
Usually people don't take the time to listen to them.
Our founder told us when you want to listento the people, you should put down everything.
Because usually when we are listening to eachother, I would just think “OK, this is the
point I want to note”.
OF (38:11):
Yeah.
ZY (38:12):
But then if I put down everything, just listen to you, all my information channels
are open, and I can get much more informationthan I usually get only with my ear, yeah?
OF (38:25):
Mm-hm.
ZY (38:26):
This is very helpful.
OF (38:27):
Mmm.
ZY (38:28):
Yeah.
OF (38:29):
What a lovely way to end this conversation.
I've been trying to do the same with you,and I've also really learned a lot from you.
Thank you so much Zhou Yan.
ZY (38:36):
You're welcome.
OF (38:38):
Before I let you leave, the question I will ask you is
in China, who would you recommend that I interviewin the next season of Mosaic of China?
ZY (38:48):
I would like to introduce Darsea Liu.
She's a professional surfer.
Or better to say, she used to be a professionalsurfer.
But now she's engaged in ecology.
OF (39:00):
OK.
So she's gone from surfer to environmentalprotection, just like you went from working
in Austria to now working in volunteer work.
ZY (39:08):
Yes.
OF (39:09):
I can see the connection.
ZY (39:10):
Yeah, totally different now.
OF (39:12):
What one question would you ask her?
ZY (39:14):
I would like to ask the questions that you have asked me also, then.
What does she believe that she has got themost - up to now - from this change?
OF (39:25):
Right.
So not what she can give, but what has shereceived?
ZY (39:28):
Yes.
OF (39:29):
Mmm, very nice.
Thanks again Zhou Yan.
ZY (39:32):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: I hope you enjoyed listening to that as
much as I enjoyed making it.
Just a couple of quick clarifications, thefirst Death Café was in the UK, but the person
who came up with the idea Bernard Crettazwas himself Swiss.
(39:53):
And Zhou Yan also wanted me to make clearthat in the hospice they don’t push patients
to communicate more deeply with their families,as may have come across in the interview.
They really just talk and listen, and if anappropriate topic comes up then they would
simply try to make suggestions as part ofthe natural flow of conversation.
(40:16):
We cover some similar ground on the topicsof death and bereavement in another recent
episode, the one with the filmmaker ElaineHuang from Season 03 Episode 08, so be sure
to dip into that show if you haven’t doneso already.
And another connection to a previous episodewas on the big topic of…
(40:38):
Chinese sauerkraut.
I also talked about this with the Tourette’sadvocate Dajiang, from Season 03 Episode 15.
And finally please go online - either to themosaicofchina.com website or on social media
- to see all the images that accompany today’sshow, including Zhou Yan’s favourite WeChat
(41:00):
sticker of Timon, the mongoose from the LionKing, compared alongside a photo of her husband.
I can’t mention The Lion King without remindingyou that Season 01 Episode 01 of the show
was with Philippe Gas, President of the DisneyResort Shanghai, who also - perhaps unsurprisingly
(41:21):
- discussed The Lion King.
As I mentioned at the beginning of today’sepisode, there’s a much longer version of
my chat with Zhou Yan in the PREMIUM versionof the show, at Patreon or Apple Podcast Subscriptions
internationally, or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China.
Here are some clips:
(41:41):
[Clip 1]ZY: One day I drove 200 kilometres without
seeing one person.
Sometimes it's good.
OF (41:49):
Absolutely.
ZY (41:50):
Yeah.
[Clip 2]OF: We couldn't really talk to her.
But my father started singing, and then shejoined in.
Wow.
[Clip 3]ZY: A taxi driver who has just lost his wife
the day before.
But he still has a daughter to raise, so hehas to go back to work the next day.
[Clip 4]ZY: It's not a money earning business, yeah.
OF (42:07):
No.
ZY (42:08):
No.
OF (42:09):
Because it's standardised across the whole of Shanghai.
ZY (42:11):
Yeah.
[Clip 5]ZY: You can see maybe fruits, or maybe the
things he likes, maybe some Buddhist figuresor things like that.
[Clip 6]ZY: The hospital workers are a difficult topic.
Because they are very badly paid.
[Clip 7]OF: So when you say that that's the thing
you want to avoid, I hear you because thelast thing we did was argue about “Will
(42:31):
I brush my teeth or not?”
[Clip 8]ZY: After I finished the first sentence, she
started to sing the second one with me.
OF (42:38):
Oh.
[Clip 9]ZY: They already started to think about these
topics, and they want to hear what the othershave to say.
Which kind of sounds like you, right?
ZY (42:46):
Yes, yes.
[Clip 10]OF: It’s too direct.
Yes, yes.
OF (42:49):
Yeah, we have that bull-**** as well.
[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.
After the music, there are catch-ups withthe history professor Chang Chihyun from Season
02 Episode 03 and the playwright Nick Yu fromSeason 01 Episode 13.
(43:11):
Like I said at the top of the show, I’mgoing to take a break from Mosaic of China
for a few weeks, so I’ll see you back againfor the next full episode of Season 03 a little
later.
All that remains for me to say until thenis: I love you, I’m sorry, I forgive you,
thank you, and goodbye.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Chihyun!
CC (43:38):
Hi.
OF (43:41):
Good to see you, man.
CC (43:44):
It's very nice to see you too.
OF (43:46):
You are looking very fit.
CC (43:48):
I want to lose another 20 pounds.
OF (43:51):
Right!
CC (43:52):
Yeah.
OF (43:53):
This was a lockdown plan, or..?
CC (43:54):
It was an accidental/lockdown plan.
Since I had a lot of time, I thought it wasa great idea for me to experiment and try
to adapt my diet.
OF (44:05):
That's incredible.
So really, this is an entire lifestyle change?
CC (44:10):
I think it will be a lifestyle change.
I still drink.
I still eat meat.
But the frequency…
OF (44:16):
Yeah.
CC (44:17):
…Is not as high any more.
OF (44:19):
Yeah.
Well, you were quite famous for the way thatyou handled your relationships in the university.
So people who don't know you, you are a professorat Jiaotong University.
CC (44:31):
Yes.
OF (44:32):
In the Humanities Department.
CC (44:33):
Humanities School and History Department.
OF (44:36):
Oh, got it.
CC (44:37):
Yeah.
OF (44:38):
And part of the way that you communicated was through taking out your students and having
a drink together, having a nice meal together.
So it's gonna be interesting to see how thatchanges in the future.
CC (44:48):
That will be rough, right?
I think I really have to find a better way,right?
Yeah.
OF (44:54):
Well let's talk about life in the university.
Because it used to be an area where it wasquite international, I used to bump into many
international people.
But of course, many people on student visasstill can't return to China.
CC (45:07):
No they can't.
OF (45:08):
So as an update to our episode, what has happened in the last 18 months?
CC (45:13):
I think it is the biggest pity, I have to say.
Because the biggest change is, every cornerin the world is not globalised anymore.
Especially universities are particularly cautiousabout whether or not we should let foreign
students come into the campus.
This caused a lot of damage to our academicperformance and advancement.
(45:40):
Academics mean controversies, controversiesbring in advancement.
It is necessary.
We have to respect - and we have to listento - some different ideas.
But if we cannot meet people in person, trustme they're not going to tell you what they
really think over Zoom or Tencent Conference,they're not going to do that.
OF (46:00):
Yeah.
CC (46:01):
You really have to get some drinks first.
OF (46:02):
Yeah.
CC (46:03):
So I think that is the biggest problem.
And to be very honest, it's deeply worriesme.
I think it would be a very difficult timefor China to attract international talent.
Some people will say that the good part isthat we can attract Chinese talents who have
got a foreign degree, back to China.
OF (46:21):
True.
CC (46:22):
And they can fill in the gap.
I don't agree.
Because we'd just recruit a bunch of losers.
They can't find a proper job in the UK orin the USA or in Japan.
That's the ugly truth.
OF (46:35):
The people who want to come back so soon are the ones who can't find something there.
CC (46:40):
Yes.
OF (46:41):
Mmm.
CC (46:42):
The reason why I understand this, is because Taiwanese universities experienced exactly
the same thing 20 years ago.
OF (46:49):
See, this is why it's useful to talk to an historian, right?
You can see the patterns.
CC (46:55):
Yeah.
OF (46:56):
Especially your particular field is in the history of international trade, right?
CC (47:00):
Yes.
OF (47:01):
So that is so relevant to global geopolitics these days.
Are we learning from the past?
We're not really learning, are we?
CC (47:09):
The only thing I can say we learn from history is that human beings don't learn from
history.
OF (47:14):
Yes.
CC (47:15):
Too bad.
OF (47:16):
Yeah.
CC (47:17):
Too dumb.
OF (47:18):
It’s also about policies that they have enacted, which have had an effect on education
in the last couple of years.
And I think it's mainly been in primary andsecondary education, I believe.
Has there been anything which has affectedtertiary education?
CC (47:31):
Right now we can't see the impact.
But I think it will influence the universityeducation.
I think one of the biggest parts - and probablyyou have heard - is that the primary school
or elementary schools don't teach Englishany more.
I understand why.
Nowadays, when you see a 10-year-old child,they would spend something like 10 hours a
(47:58):
week to study Chinese, but they spend like30 hours on English.
OF (48:04):
Thirty?
CC (48:05):
3-0.
OF (48:06):
Versus ten on Chinese.
CC (48:07):
Yeah.
OF (48:08):
Seriously.
CC (48:09):
This sort of debate has been discussed for over 120 years since the signing of the
Boxer Protocol.
OF (48:19):
Is that 1905?
No.
CC (48:21):
1900.
OF (48:22):
1900.
CC (48:23):
Yeah.
And then people would say that we should stickto the traditional scholarship, 旧学 [jiùxué].
Or the new - or advanced - scholarship, 新学[xīnxué].
That sort of debate can last forever.
And of course, you would think of the bestway is that we should value both.
But trust me, my brain is not good enough.
(48:44):
I can only focus on very few things, right?
So I understand why the government is worried.
Because I am worried.
How about literary Chinese?
Personally, I think it is very beautiful.
How about traditional poetry?
But they don't really care, they care aboutEnglish.
So I understand why.
OF (49:05):
Mmm.
CC (49:06):
But you know, the government wants to do something right.
But when they made the idea into a policy,that would go to a very extreme way.
And then no one can stop it.
OF (49:19):
That's so well said.
Yeah.
Because you can see the intention, but theneverything is so heavy-handed when it comes
to the implementation.
CC (49:28):
Yeah.
OF (49:29):
There are certain provinces where you always see the implementation is 100%
CC (49:33):
Or 120%.
OF (49:35):
Right!
They go overboard.
CC (49:37):
Yes.
OF (49:38):
When you were teaching me about sinology and history, we were talking about a time
when in the West there would be rumours ofthe East, and that's how the first ideas of
China permeated into the Western world.
It kind of feels like we're going back tothat situation, because so few people can
actually step foot in China, all I hear fromthe West is like “Oh, what's happening in
(49:59):
that distant mystical land of China?”
I do hope that at some point, there will bea recrossing of people from one side to the
other, because it really sometimes feels likewe're on a different planet here.
That's the thing where I hope people likeyou can still try to bridge that gap.
CC (50:15):
I think this is the reason why I took the job of the Director of the Modern Chinese
Studies course, which is an international-taughtprogramme.
China has a lot of difficult issues.
We have to be understanding first, and thenwe can make our decision or verdict extremely
(50:37):
cautiously.
Misunderstanding can be caused by no understanding.
OF (50:42):
Mmm.
I am very grateful that I met you, and thatyou have been my professor.
CC (50:47):
Thank you very much.
OF (50:48):
And that you, of course, came on to the podcast.
It was great to talk to you then, and it'sgreat to see you now.
I hope that we will continue to stay in touch.
CC (50:56):
We will.
Thank you very much indeed.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Nick, good to see you.
NY (51:01):
Nice to meet you.
OF (51:03):
I think you have a tough time today to speak to me in English, because you don't
use English so much these days.
NY (51:11):
Yeah, for almost three years I haven’y used any English.
OF (51:15):
Ach.
NY (51:16):
But sometimes I teach English with my son at home.
OF (51:20):
To practice his schoolwork.
NY (51:21):
Yeah, yeah.
That is the only chance for me.
OF (51:25):
Ah.
I’ve put you in a very uncomfortable positiontoday.
NY (51:29):
I try to get back.
OF (51:31):
OK.
You can do it.
Nick, for people who did not listen to ouroriginal episode, you are two things.
NY (51:38):
Mm-hm.
OF (51:39):
You are a playwright.
NY (51:40):
Yeah.
OF (51:41):
And you are the Director of the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre.
NY (51:44):
Yeah.
OF (51:45):
So I remember we had a catch-up - that was already, I think, 18 months ago - the
catch-up was in ‘COVID One’, now we are‘COVID Two’
NY (51:56):
Yeah.
OF (51:57):
And last time - I wasn't surprised, because you write and write and write - but last time
you said that during the first lockdown in2020, I think you finished five plays.
You also finished your PhD?
NY (52:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh yeah, I got my memory back.
OF (52:16):
Yes.
So what happened this time?
Did you also write many plays?
NY (52:20):
I wrote three plays.
Two of them will be produced this year.
But we have several plays that we alreadyhave planned to put on the stage.
For example, a musical.
We want to do 200 performances, almost a half-yearrun.
OF (52:38):
Wow.
NY (52:39):
Yeah.
So that is a big plan for our theatre.
I think the audience still need the theatre.
OF (52:43):
Yeah.
NY (52:44):
They need to go to the theatre in person.
OF (52:46):
Yeah.
It's an intimate, enclosed environment.
NY (52:48):
Yeah.
A private space, to think about situationsyou’ve never encountered in your life.
But you can imagine it in the theatre, inthat place.
So I think that is why the audience go tothe theatre.
OF (53:03):
Yeah.
What about then the content?
Because I remember when we talked last time,you said that during 2020 what was popular
back then was stand-up comedy.
NY (53:15):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (53:16):
Which was quite new in China.
What about this time?
Have you seen certain content, certain genres,being more popular?
NY (53:23):
Musicals.
Almost every week there’s a new musicalcoming out.
Before, I never thought that would happen.
But that suddenly happened.
Because musicals from overseas cannot cometo China.
OF (53:37):
Yeah.
I mean, I hope it bounces back.
And I'm really glad to at least see that you'rebeing productive; there is creativity happening
in Shanghai; and there is optimism.
At least, let's see what happens in the future.
NY (53:49):
Yeah.
OF (53:50):
Thank you so much again, for being part of this Mosaic family.
NY (53:54):
Thank you.
OF (53:55):
I hope that every year we have a chance to say hello.
NY (53:57):
Thank you.
I wish too.
Yeah.
OF (54:00):
Thanks so much Nick.
NY (54:01):
Thank you.
[Trailer]OF: This is the second question you've answered
which includes toilets.
ZY (00:06):
This is very important.
Yeah.
OF (00:09):
Hey, you're very practical.
Let's talk about death… and ****.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
In case you’re wondering about my voice,I’ve got COVID-19.
(00:31):
Luckily I’d done most of the work for thisepisode before getting sick, so I’m going
to release it now and then go on a break fora few weeks.
Today’s episode is with Zhou Yan, a Chineselady.
But there’s an immediate connection withthe guest from the last episode - the commercial
(00:51):
airline pilot Michael Hundegger from Austria- because Zhou Yan also spent many years in
Austria before returning to China.
I mention this because she has a really niceway of sometimes using a German figure of
speech rather than an English one.
So listen out for when she says things like‘Buddhismus’ instead of Buddhism, ‘Papier’
(01:15):
instead of paper, ‘history’ instead of‘story’.
It’s very subtle, but it’s one of thosethings that I love picking up on when speaking
with someone whose background includes a realmix of cultures.
Speaking of past episodes, one of my favouriteswas the one with Louise Roy from Season 02
(01:36):
Episode 06 where we talked about the way Chinahandles childbirth.
Well today’s episode is about the otherside of that story, the process of dying.
The subject matter gets quite personal attimes, so I just wanted to warn you to please
proceed with caution if you’re in a sensitiveheadspace right now.
(02:00):
Let me also tell you right from the startthat my original conversation with Zhou Yan
was really really long, there’s actuallyalmost 30 minutes of bonus content in this
week’s PREMIUM version of the show.
So if you already know that this is a topicthat you’re interested in, save yourself
some time, head to mosaicofchina.com and immediatelysubscribe to that version so that you can
(02:25):
listen to our conversation in full.
And finally, this is one of those episodeswhich justifies the format of the show, because
it allows us to have quite a serious tonein Part 1 but we can then switch to a completely
different tone in Part 2.
So if you’re at any point thinking thatthe conversation is getting a little heavy,
(02:50):
hang in there!
And I mean hang in right until the end, becausewe also have two excellent catch-ups with
previous guests of the show, both of whomare also definitely worth listening into.
So let me shut up and let’s finally getstarted.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming today.
ZY (03:12):
You’re welcome.
OF (03:13):
I haven't said your name yet because I'm always nervous about tones.
So ‘Zhou Yan’, but how do you say it withthe tones?
ZY (03:19):
周燕 [Zhōu Yàn].
OF (03:20):
周燕 [Zhōu Yàn], so it’s 1st tone, 4th zone.
ZY (03:22):
Yeah OF
The first thing I will ask you is, what objectdid you bring that in some way describes your
life in China?
I thought long about it.
And then finally, my decision is my phone.
My cellphone?
OF (03:38):
Oh.
ZY (03:39):
Yes.
OF (03:40):
OK.
I must say this is not the first time someonehas brought their phone.
So I'm a little bit disappointed.
ZY (03:46):
Mm-hm.
OF (03:47):
But telling me the reason.
ZY (03:48):
OK, my reason was that the smartphone has changed my life so dramatically.
I came back to Shanghai at the beginning of2014…
OF (03:58):
When you say “Came back,” where were you?
ZY (04:01):
From Austria.
And at that time, I think I had no more than20 WeChat contacts.
And now I have over 2,000.
OF (04:09):
Mmm.
ZY (04:10):
Actually, I hate it, that WeChat totally changed the way how I work.
I really miss the time when we only had phoneand emails.
OF (04:19):
Mmm.
ZY (04:20):
I found out that I might have…
I don't know how to pronounce the word, butI can't see how to just distances.
This ability is reduced.
OF (04:29):
Ah.
It’s damaging your eyesight, you mean?
ZY (04:32):
Yes.
I really would like to have a job where Idon't have to check my phone all day.
OF (04:38):
Yeah.
ZY (04:39):
Yeah.
But I don't know if it's possible to haveit in Shanghai.
OF (04:42):
It's interesting.
You've chosen the object that defines yourlife, but in a bad way, right?
ZY (04:47):
In a bad way, yeah.
But maybe I will say “Bye bye”, and justcheck my phone once in the evenings then.
OF (04:53):
If I asked you what it is that we were going to talk about, how would you describe
our topic of conversation?
ZY (05:00):
It’s that I’ve decided to engage as a volunteer in hospice service for the last
three years.
OF (05:10):
Right.
And this is particularly interesting, becausethe way that China and the Chinese deal with
death, in some ways it's very similar to anywhereelse in the world.
And in other ways, it's a little bit heightened,there's a little bit more of a stigma.
ZY (05:23):
Yes.
OF (05:24):
So I'm extremely interested to talk about this with you.
ZY (05:26):
OK.
OF (05:27):
So tell me about the organisation that you volunteer for.
ZY (05:30):
OK, in Chinese it's called like ‘Hand in Hand’
OF (05:33):
手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
ZY (05:34):
Yeah.
It was already founded in 2008.
I think they are one of the very first NGOsin China who started to do this.
OF (05:42):
Where were you at that time?
ZY (05:44):
I was still in Austria.
OF (05:46):
Oh, so you lived in Austria for a long time?
ZY (05:48):
For a long time.
Like, almost 12 years.
OF (05:50):
Well I want to find out the story about how you got from Austria to what you're doing
now.
But let's jump forward for now.
ZY (05:56):
Yeah.
OF (05:57):
And let's talk about what it is that the organisation does.
ZY (06:00):
They do basically two things.
First of all, they train volunteers like meand then send us to hospices, where we know
that the only patients allowed to be thereare those who will not live for more than
six months.
OF (06:20):
Right, yes.
And do they know that?
ZY (06:23):
Not always.
Because in China, many families tend to askthe doctors “Ah, don't tell him (or her)
the truth, he will be so frightened.
So it's better that he doesn’t know that.”
OF (06:37):
Mmm.
And what is this hospice?
This is a separate institution from a hospital?
ZY (06:43):
It's usually in a hospital.
OF (06:46):
Yes.
ZY (06:47):
But it's usually then also a separate part.
For example, half of a floor.
Or even the whole floor, if the hospital supportsthat.
In most hospices, very basic services areprovided.
Because hospice rooms here in Shanghai arein the very basic-level hospitals.
Hospitals in Shanghai are divided into threelevels.
(07:08):
First are the community hospitals; the secondlevel is the district hospitals; and the third
level is city hospitals.
And most of the hospice rooms are locatedin the community hospitals.
OF (07:20):
Which is the lowest level.
ZY (07:21):
The lowest level.
OF (07:23):
OK.
ZY (07:24):
Yeah.
OF (07:25):
How then do you get involved?
Do you contact them, or do they contact you?
ZY (07:29):
So usually the standard process is that a hospital will contact our organisation and
say “We would like to have a volunteer team”.
Then our NGO will start to look for people.
They usually do training twice or three timesper year, so people can just register for
the training.
(07:49):
And then after the training, we will justgo to the hospice, and as volunteers we go
there once a week.
And there we will just have an internal discussion,to talk about the things that happened over
the last week.
And then we will go into the rooms, and goaround and find our patients.
Sometimes ones that you will stay with forseveral weeks; sometimes it's just random,
or just a feeling (08:14):
who you feel that you would like to stay nearby, to him or to her.
OF (08:20):
Can you give me some examples of when you have dealt with an individual?
ZY (08:24):
Old people here in China, they are not used to showing their emotions or talking
about their feelings.
They are usually only taking care of the veryphysical things, like getting you something
to eat, or “Do you need water?”, thingslike that.
OF (08:40):
Yes.
That's how they express love to each other,right?
ZY (08:42):
Yes.
So when we are there, usually we will tryto help them to recall what they have done
when they were young; anything that they haveachieved; any good times they have had; things
like that.
To find…
Not to find, but to see the meaning of theirlife.
OF (09:01):
Mmm.
ZY (09:02):
Which has been always there, but they were not able to see it.
One example was a patient, who was a veryspecial one.
He just talked very aggressively to everyone,even to his wife.
It was always, like, blaming you.
OF (09:18):
Mmm.
ZY (09:19):
So another volunteer kept on talking with him, that he should express his feelings in
the right way to his wife.
And of course, this took some time.
And then one day as his wife came to his bedagain, he said “I'm sorry”.
He just said this one sentence.
And usually his wife sat distant to the bed.
(09:43):
But when she heard this sentence, she wasshocked at the beginning, and then started
to cry.
And then since then every time she came again,she started to sit next to him on the bed.
OF (09:55):
Mmm.
ZY (09:56):
Yeah.
OF (09:57):
So what you can do then is to bridge this communication between people.
So it's not just you and the patient, butyou're creating an atmosphere where the patient
and their family can talk openly.
ZY (10:07):
Yeah.
Because in hospice we have a ‘value’,I don't know how we should call that.
But usually we believe there are five thingsyou should do.
To say “Love”; to say “Sorry”; tosay “I forgive you”; to say "Thank you”.
And the last thing is - if you have done thefirst four things all very well - the last
thing is to say “Goodbye”.
OF (10:27):
Yeah.
ZY (10:28):
And it won't be that difficult then.
OF (10:29):
Mmm.
ZY (10:30):
That's what we are usually trying to help our patients to do.
OF (10:33):
So when you meet someone, you can - in your mind - see which stage they're at?
ZY (10:37):
No no no, it's not fixed in this order.
And maybe it's also not necessary for peopleto do all of this.
OF (10:45):
Mmm.
ZY (10:46):
Maybe sometimes only one or two of them is already enough.
OF (10:49):
And then you said that when you joined this NGO you got training.
So this is the training that you received?
ZY (10:55):
Yes.
They don't think they are just training volunteersfor hospice work.
They believe this is also the chance for meto be a better me.
It's not just focused on details.
Our founders will always help us to see thewhole thing, and ask me to think about “Why
was this a problem?” or “Why this happened?”
Because it’s usually because of me, somethinginternal here.
OF (11:18):
Mmm.
ZY (11:19):
And only when we see the origin where the problems were made, then you can deal
with the whole thing much better.
OF (11:25):
Well let's jump to that topic, then.
Because this is one of the questions thatI wanted to ask you, which is why you do this.
Why do you volunteer to be around dying people?
ZY (11:35):
Well, I've been asked this question several times.
I have an official answer, and an unofficialanswer.
OF (11:43):
Good.
Give me the official one first.
ZY (11:46):
OK.
The official answer first is that I alwayslike to work as a volunteer.
Which is true, since I was a little girl Ialways liked to do that, to help people.
This ‘service’ character, you know, Ilike to help people.
Shanghai is actually a very great city, whereyou can always find enough people for general
volunteer service.
OF (12:05):
Oh.
ZY (12:06):
So I thought then “Well there must be some area which are maybe more difficult,
and which cannot find that many people”.
So I came to the idea of hospice work.
OF (12:16):
OK.
ZY (12:17):
Yeah.
OF (12:18):
Official answer complete.
What about the real answer, then?
ZY (12:21):
The real answer is just a real for this moment, it can be changed in the next few
years again.
The real answer is that since I've startedto do this - at first it was hospices, and
after that it was the Death Café, which we'lltalk about later - I came to the reality that
I personally got much more from this volunteerservice than I can do for others, actually.
OF (12:47):
Mmm.
ZY (12:48):
In the first year when I started to hospice work, one very obvious change is that I started
to see my family.
I mean ‘see’ my family.
Family for me used to be like water for fish.
OF (13:02):
Right.
ZY (13:03):
They are just here.
Well, it doesn't mean that we don't have agood relationship.
We have.
What it really means when I started to ‘see’them is, for example, I started to realise
that my grandmas and grandpas will not bethere some day.
OF (13:19):
Yeah.
ZY (13:20):
In the past I just went there, you know, like ‘doing my job’.
Like once a month, to visit them, to havea lunch with them, that was all.
And then after I started to do hospice work,I thought "What can I do for them?
And what do they really want to have?"
For example I found out that my grandma alwayswanted to see a panda in reality…
OF (13:39):
Right.
ZY …Because she only saw them on televisionbefore.
Oh.
ZY (13:43):
And she was already over ninety, and she couldn’t really walk very far.
So I took a day off from work, and took mygrandparents to the Shanghai Zoo, and my grandma
really saw a panda for the first time in herlife.
OF (13:56):
Wow.
ZY (13:57):
Things like that.
Then with my grandpa to the cinema, yeah.
OF (14:00):
It's very lucky.
Because a lot of us, we lose our grandparentsbefore we have the chance to really ‘see’
them.
ZY (14:07):
Yeah.
OF (14:08):
And does that also translate to your relationship with your parents too?
ZY (14:12):
Yes.
We used to quarrel a lot.
We have a very good relationship, but sinceI was a kid the way we communicated was shouting
to each other, and not really talking peacefully.
Because this was actually the way they weretalking to each other, I just learned it from
them.
OF (14:32):
Ah.
ZY (14:33):
But I started to change.
Because one thing is very clear for me (14:34):
the best work of one's life can just be oneself.
So I started to change myself.
OF (14:42):
Ah.
ZY (14:43):
And then - maybe one or two years later - I started to see that they were also starting
to change the way they talk to each other.
OF (14:49):
Mmm.
ZY (14:50):
Yeah.
If you go into the street and ask people “Heydo you know that we will die someday?”
they will think “Are you crazy?
Of course, I know”.
But most people know it like ‘1+1=2’.
They are not really taking this into theirlife, and into the decisions.
And I just don't want it that maybe I leftmy parents’ apartment this morning, and
(15:12):
we have just quarrelled with each other again,and then maybe an accident happens to me.
And that was the last conversation we hadwith each other.
OF (15:19):
Yes.
ZY (15:20):
Then it will be a bad farewell.
Yeah.
OF (15:23):
Yes.
I can definitely see how that would make youlive more intentionally every day.
ZY (15:28):
Yes, more aware of the life that I'm having.
OF (15:33):
You've mentioned the Death Café.
This is separate from your job in the hospitalitself.
Can you explain that?
ZY (15:40):
The Death Café is actually a second very important part of what the NGO is doing.
OF (15:45):
Right.
ZY (15:46):
And the Death Café actually originates from England.
OF (15:49):
OK, so what is the concept?
ZY (15:51):
Bernard Crettaz is his name.
So he first came up with this idea, becausedeath is the only thing which will happen
in our life with 100% certainty.
But we don't take so much time to look intothis topic, and to talk about it, and to get
ready for it.
So he first came up with this idea, and itstayed on paper only.
(16:13):
Jon Underwood, he first held a Death Caféaccording to this idea, and he also got some
support from Professor Bernard Crettaz.
He first had this Death Café, I think, in2011 in London.
It took him one year to prepare the DeathCafé.
And do you know why it took him so long?
OF (16:31):
No.
ZY (16:32):
He couldn’t find a place.
OF (16:33):
Ah yeah.
ZY (16:34):
He was not able to find a café that was willing to have this kind of talk.
So he held the first death café in the worldin his mother's house, in the basement.
OF (16:45):
How funny.
So it's called ‘Death Café’, but it doesn'thave to be a café.
ZY (16:49):
Yeah, it's important that you have coffee or tea, just make yourself comfortable and
relax.
And let's talk about death.
OF (16:57):
I see.
ZY (16:58):
Yeah.
OF (16:59):
OK so what happens in this death cafe?
You, for example, are you one of the leaders?
ZY (17:03):
Yes.
I think currently we are already over 600people in over 50 cities in China.
OF (17:10):
Oh wow, yeah.
ZY (17:11):
Yeah.
But it's totally volunteer-based.
So it doesn't happen regularly, it’s onlywhen I have time, and when I feel like it.
Then I will organise it.
And it's actually just a relaxing afternoontea, but we still have some certain principles.
So first of all, the topic should be focusedon death.
Second of all, we should have respect andlisten to others.
Because I think in China, people judge a lot.
OF (17:36):
Mmm.
ZY (17:37):
So we try not to judge others, just listen to what they are saying.
Because death is very personal.
You cannot say “I don't agree”, and “Youshould think like that”.
So we don't do that.
And if you share your stories, maybe it'sconnected with some religious things.
This is OK, but don't make it, you know…
OF (17:56):
Pushing on others.
ZY (17:57):
Yes.
Like “Buddhism is good”, things like that.
OF (18:00):
Yeah, right.
ZY (18:01):
This is not allowed.
The last thing is that here in the Death Café,we allow emotions to be shared, to flow around
the room.
But when we leave, all the stories we haveheard stay here.
OF (18:12):
Yeah.
ZY (18:13):
But of course, sometimes at the beginning they will be a little bit hesitant and they
will just wait to see what other people say.
And sometimes we will use some small devicesto start the topic of conversation.
For example, I could just take a piece ofpaper, and tear it into small pieces, and
write down random numbers - like 1, or maybe90, or maybe a very very big number - and
(18:36):
mix them up so that everyone can pick up aone.
And the number is the estimated days thatyou can still live.
And then I will ask people to share what theyfeel when they see this number.
OF (18:48):
Mmm.
ZY (18:49):
It’s a very simple but very useful device.
OF (18:52):
That's how you get the conversation started.
ZY (18:54):
Yeah.
OF (18:55):
And then as someone is reacting, they might also bring out their personal story.
ZY (18:59):
Yes, yeah.
OF (19:00):
Do you also recruit volunteers from these groups?
Because it must be hard to find volunteerswho want to do this.
ZY (19:07):
Not that hard, actually.
OF (19:09):
Good.
ZY (19:10):
Not that hard.
For example, last year our NGO, 手牵手[Shǒuqiānshǒu], had this Death Café leader
training in Shanghai, and also in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].
For the quantities that we are able to train,it’s enough for this moment.
OF (19:22):
Yeah.
ZY (19:23):
But for the whole of China, of course it's not enough.
OF (19:25):
Well, exactly.
ZY (19:26):
Yeah.
OF (19:27):
It’s just starting.
But are there any other NGOs like you?
ZY (19:30):
Death Café, I don't think so.
Hospice, yes.
OF (19:33):
Got it.
Well, let's go back to the hospice, becausewhat I want to ask you next is, what do you
see when someone is about to die?
Do you know “OK, this person is only a fewdays away.”
Like, what are the physical things that startto happen?
ZY (19:50):
Um, if you see these people weekly, the first things you would notice is that the
energy is not there any more.
For example, maybe last week she was stillsitting there, and this week she can only
lie there, she's not able to sit up any more.
The second thing is if she would greet youas before or not.
(20:12):
Then if it's getting nearer and the nearerto the end, you will also see the colour of
the skin will start to change.
For example, there will be more and more…
how to say this?
The blue one…
OF (20:27):
Ah, bruises.
ZY (20:28):
The bruises.
There will start to be more and more bruises.
And if you are close enough - usually thefamilies could find out - the ears are getting
more soft.
OF (20:36):
Wait, the ears get soft.
ZY (20:39):
Yes.
This part.
OF (20:41):
I've never heard that before.
ZY (20:42):
Yeah.
OF (20:43):
Huh.
ZY (20:44):
There are actually a lot of signs that you would see, if you really see it very closely
and carefully.
OF (20:50):
Yeah.
ZY (20:51):
If the patient still drinks water as normal, usually it starts with the feet, or also with
the fingers.
Yeah, it's the very furthest part, far awayfrom the heart.
Then you will start to see, they will getswelling.
OF (21:02):
Really.
ZY (21:03):
Because the body doesn't need it anymore.
Because in the last days, the organs havealso slowed down to work.
So they can't really handle all these thingsanymore.
Actually, they don't need to eat then, inthe last days.
It's better to help them to keep the bodyrelaxed and clean, not…
OF (21:19):
Not overworking the organs.
ZY (21:21):
Yes, yes.
OF (21:22):
That makes sense.
ZY (21:23):
Yeah.
OF (21:24):
And so have you actually been there when someone has died?
ZY (21:28):
No, because - not always, but usually - most of the time, most people pass away
in the night, when we wouldn’t be there.
OF (21:36):
Ah.
Really?
ZY (21:38):
Yeah.
OF (21:39):
Do we know why?
ZY (21:40):
It's for different reasons.
If we say medically, we can see it’s becausethe organs usually don't work so actively
as in the day.
OF (21:48):
Yes.
So they rest even more.
So that's when people would normally die.
ZY (21:53):
Yeah.
And if we talk about something not relatedto science, sometimes we also believe that
lots of people just don't want to pass awaywhen their families are still beside them.
OF (22:04):
Yes.
ZY (22:05):
It happens, yeah.
If the family members have been there takingvery good care of this patient, then the patient
would maybe prefer to pass away alone.
Because dying people don't really want todie when it's so noisy and loud around.
Because the last thing the body will loseis hearing.
Even if you see on the machine that the hearthas stopped beating, they can still hear.
OF (22:29):
They can still hear!
ZY (22:30):
For several minutes.
Yeah, for a further several minutes.
OF (22:32):
How do you know that?
ZY (22:33):
It's a science topic, yeah.
OF (22:34):
Oh.
ZY (22:35):
It's very heavy for them, if people then start to cry loudly, you know.
It's very very sensitive.
OF (22:41):
Right, so if you are with someone when they're dying, the best thing to do would
just be to continue being calm after theirheart stopped.
ZY (22:50):
Go on talking to this patient, like “Mom, I will always love you.
And don't worry, I will take care of myself”.
OF (22:56):
Mmm.
ZY (22:57):
Things like that.
Instead of like, just “Ah mom!
Come back!
Why?”
Things like that.
OF (23:03):
Wow, fascinating.
I mean, this whole conversation has been fascinating,Zhou Yan, I really appreciate hearing from
you, not just because we're here in Chinaand this topic is so interesting here, but
just as a human.
We actually could be having this conversationin any country, right?
ZY (23:18):
Yes.
If it's possible, maybe someday this willeven be my job.
At the current moment it’s still not possible,but maybe someday in the future.
OF (23:26):
Right.
As it becomes more accepted, this could becomesomething which is a career.
And you could actually spread it in a moreprofessional way across China.
ZY (23:33):
Yeah.
OF (23:34):
I support you.
I hope that you will end up doing that.
It's obviously your passion.
ZY (23:38):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's my passion.
OF (23:40):
And where can people find out about this?
ZY (23:43):
The WeChat account, it's only available in Chinese.
OF (23:45):
Of course.
ZY (23:46):
Yeah, it’s called 上海手牵手生命关爱发展中心 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu Shēngmìng Guān'ài
Fāzhǎn Zhōngxīn].
If you just look up 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu]on WeChat, you will find us
OF (23:54):
Yes.
So 上海手牵手 [Shànghǎi Shǒuqiānshǒu].
ZY (23:56):
Yeah.
OF (23:57):
Thanks Zhou Yan, we will move on to Part 2.
ZY (23:59):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Part 2.
OK.
OF (24:05):
Are you ready?
ZY (24:06):
Yes.
OF (24:07):
We’ve had a very serious conversation, let’s see if we'll have a little more lightness.
ZY (24:10):
Let’s see.
OF (24:13):
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily
fact?
ZY (24:19):
Well, my favourite fact is actually we have toilets where you squat, you know.
You have to sit.
This is really my favourite part.
Because the public toilets in Europe are alsonot that clean, and then it's really difficult…
I mean, it's a special topic of for women,but…
OF (24:38):
Aha.
ZY (24:39):
I really love it here in China, that we have it.
OF (24:41):
Because you squat, and you don't have to sit on something.
ZY (24:43):
Yes.
OF (24:44):
I think in some parts of Europe, there are still squat toilets.
ZY (24:48):
Oh, really?
OF (24:49):
Yeah.
ZY (24:50):
OK.
I have never seen that.
OF (24:52):
I think…
well…
See, this is where I'm not sure either, becauseI haven't lived in Europe now for 20 years.
But I remember when I was travelling aroundFrance for example, even in France they had
squat toilets.
ZY (25:02):
How many years ago was that?
OF (25:04):
Yeah, maybe 20.
So I don't know.
ZY (25:06):
Yeah.
OF (25:07):
Interesting.
And do you think in China, there will alwaysbe squat toilets?
Or do you think that they will start to phasethem out?
ZY (25:14):
I think there will always be here.
OF (25:15):
Yeah.
ZY (25:16):
It’s a good thing.
OF (25:17):
OK.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (25:18):
undefined
Chinese?
ZY (25:24):
Yes.
It’s ‘无常 [wúcháng]’.
OF (25:27):
无常 [wúcháng], so 无 [wú] as in ‘not’?
ZY (25:31):
Uh-huh.
OF (25:32):
常 [Cháng] as in ‘often’?
ZY (25:33):
Yes, or ‘regularity’. 无常 [Wúcháng].
OF (25:34):
Yeah, so what does that mean?
ZY (25:35):
I tried to look it up in a dictionary.
I don't know if there is really a very precisetranslation, but I think it means ‘randomness’
and ‘nothing is certain’.
OF (25:47):
Oh, I see.
Oh, I like that.
As a concept?
ZY (25:51):
Yes.
Our founder always loved to say that ‘lifeis flowing’.
This is the thing that I got to realise afterI came back from Austria to Shanghai.
Nothing worked in the first three years.
Relationship broke up; job was not that OK;and after 12 years, again back to the family
(26:12):
quarrelling because this was the way thatwe communicated with each other; and my health
also some problems.
And after that I read some psychology books,and also Buddhism, and then I started to realise
that this is actually a feature of life.
OF (26:29):
Ah.
ZY (26:30):
And the thing is not about to rely on things like luck, or horoscope things.
Everything comes back to myself.
Actually, it's all in my hand.
OF (26:41):
Yeah, I like this concept.
无常 [Wúcháng].
ZY (26:44):
Yes.
To realise that life is just random and nothing'sfor certain.
Because it's normal, humans always want tofind a way to explain the whole universe with
several simple rules.
OF (26:57):
Yes.
ZY (26:58):
Because this makes us feel safe.
But I don't think it's possible.
And for me, it's easier if I just accept itsrandomness, and train myself to get so strong
that I can just deal with it.
OF (27:11):
I love it.
ZY (27:12):
Yeah.
OF (27:13):
Thank you.
ZY (27:14):
You’re welcome.
OF (27:15):
Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What is your favourite destination within
China?
ZY (27:20):
Oh, to be honest, I haven't been to so many cities in China.
I think maybe most expats have visited morecities than I have.
But my favourite is 紫金山 [Zǐjīnshān]in 南京 [Nánjīng].
OF (27:31):
Ah.
ZY (27:32):
It's a mountain in 南京 [Nánjīng] city.
OF (27:34):
OK.
Is it the one which has the observatory onthe top?
ZY (27:36):
Yes.
OF (27:37):
Ah.
ZY (27:38):
But my favourite part is not the mountain.
It's rather actually at the bottom of themountain.
There are plain trees.
OF (27:46):
Yes.
ZY (27:47):
Like we also have in Shanghai.
OF (27:48):
Yes, yes.
ZY (27:49):
But - I don't know if they have another species in 南京 [Nánjīng] - it's all so
old and so big, like they are growing intothe sky, and building a very beautiful avenue.
OF (27:58):
Yes.
ZY (27:59):
It’s really amazing.
It's very high.
Have you been there?
OF (28:03):
Do you know what, I've only been to 南京 [Nánjīng] once.
It was when my father came to Shanghai tovisit me, and we did a weekend away together
南京 [Nánjīng].
And we have walked exactly where you're talkingabout.
ZY (28:12):
Ah, in the mountain, or..?
OF (28:14):
Yeah, at the bottom.
ZY (28:15):
At the bottom.
OF (28:16):
At the bottom of the mountain.
ZY (28:17):
Ah OK.
OF (28:18):
Yeah yeah, exactly.
ZY (28:19):
Yeah.
OF (28:20):
And it was like this forest, but it's just 30 minutes from downtown 南京 [Nánjīng].
ZY (28:22):
Yes.
OF (28:23):
Because here in Shanghai, you have to really go three hours to find anything like
that.
ZY (28:27):
Yeah, you are right.
OF (28:28):
That’s why I think 南京 [Nánjīng] is a more livable city in some ways.
In fact, a Chinese lady in Season 01, NiniSum, she actually said 南京 [Nánjīng]
was her favourite destination.
It's her hometown, and she basically was sayingthe same thing.
ZY (28:41):
Ah, OK.
OF (28:42):
So there's a nice connection there.
ZY (28:43):
Yeah.
OF (28:44):
Hello Nini.
ZY (28:46):
Hello!
OF (28:47):
Next question.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
ZY (28:52):
What I would miss the most is, of course, my family.
Because I'm Chinese.
OF (28:58):
And of course you are now so much closer to your family.
ZY (29:02):
Yes.
OF (29:03):
I guess when you lived in Austria for 12 years, maybe you didn't really miss them
so much.
But this time it would be different, right?
ZY (29:09):
You are right.
OF (29:10):
Mmm.
Do they know that?
Like, do they really feel the difference inyour relationship between then and now?
ZY (29:15):
It's a good question.
I think they know it.
Because as what I said before in the firstpart, in the hospice: the five things we should
do, one of them is to apologise.
It's very difficult for people to apologise.
OF (29:28):
Oh my god.
Yep.
ZY (29:30):
In Chinese culture especially, because of this 面子 [miànzi] thing.
OF (29:33):
Yeah.
ZY (29:34):
And I'm also aware that sometimes I should really say sorry to my parents, but it's so
difficult to say, and I start to do one thing.
After we quarrel again, I would just cometo my papa or my mama and just hug him or
her.
It's a ‘sorry’.
OF (29:51):
Yeah.
ZY (29:52):
So I think they know it now that I really have them in my heart.
OF (29:54):
Yes.
ZY (29:55):
Yeah.
OF (29:56):
Nice answer.
And what would you miss the least?
ZY (29:58):
It's what I just mentioned, the ‘face’.
The 面子 [miànzi] thing, which is veryfamous.
OF (30:03):
Yeah.
I don't think, in three seasons, anyone hasreally defined 面子 [miànzi].
So can you define it?
ZY (30:08):
Woah.
Of course, it's different from person to person,but the most common situation is maybe that,
for example, if your leader at work says somethingwrong, makes a mistake, and you point it out,
he lost his face because he's the leader.
OF (30:23):
Mmm.
ZY (30:24):
Or generally, for example, in a dating relationship, usually the boys tend to show
“I know everything.”
And then if you come to a topic that he doesn'tknow, and yet he tries to go on talking with
you about that, and you think "Should I pointit out or not?”
Yeah, such kind of things are everywhere,actually.
OF (30:42):
Yes.
So what is the answer?
In China you basically don't say anything,you just have to nod and say “Mmm, mmm,
mmm”.
ZY (30:50):
Yes.
Just don't make it clear that it was wrong.
OF (30:53):
So actually, you don't like this system.
ZY (30:56):
I don't like it.
Because I've been living in Austria for 12years.
And I studied there, so when I was 19 I wentto Austria.
And there, the culture is very direct.
OF (31:07):
Mm-hm.
ZY (31:08):
When you find out something, and when you think of something, you just speak it
out.
And I really love it, because it's very efficient.
And because it's real.
OF (31:17):
Yeah.
ZY (31:18):
Yeah.
OF (31:19):
When you live your life in China, do you try and blend in some of that Austrian culture
into your relationships?
Or now have you basically ‘gone native’back into the Chinese culture?
ZY (31:30):
It's not that I try to blend in, but I am just like that.
And if I act like that, people will notice“OK, Yan is a little bit different”.
And then they will have to decide how theyreact to me.
OF (31:45):
Mmm.
ZY (31:46):
And those people who stay, they will be the ones that I feel comfortable with.
OF (31:50):
I see.
ZY (31:51):
Yeah.
OF (31:52):
Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
ZY (31:55):
The thing that surprised me the most was that one thing in Shanghai is totally different
now (32:01):
parks and the public toilets.
OF (32:03):
Right.
ZY (32:04):
Parks used to always charge entrance fees, when I left China as a child.
And the public toilets also charged fees.
But now they are all for free.
And the public toilets now, I think 9 outof 10 that I've visited, are all very clean.
OF (32:21):
Yeah.
ZY (32:22):
Yeah.
This really surprised me.
This is very important for me.
OF (32:25):
Hang on.
Yeah, this is the second question you've answeredwhich includes toilets.
ZY (32:30):
This is very important.
Yeah.
OF (32:33):
Hey, you're very practical.
Let's talk about death… and ****. Next question,this is from SmartShanghai: Where is your
favourite place to go out, to eat or drinkor hang out?
ZY (32:47):
Currently, my favourite restaurant is called 望蓉城 [Wàngróngchéng].
OF (32:51):
Ooh.
ZY (32:52):
It’s snakehead fish fillets in a Chinese sauerkraut soup.
OF (32:57):
Wait wait wait wait.
Start again, what the hell?
ZY (33:00):
This fish is called snakehead.
I looked it up in the dictionary.
It's a black fish actually, 黑鱼[hēiyú].
OF (33:06):
I've never heard of this fish.
OK.
ZY (33:10):
Yeah, this restaurant that does it very well.
OF (33:13):
Where is it?
ZY (33:14):
It's a chain, you can find it in lots of places.
OF (33:18):
All right, I'm gonna look it up.
ZY (33:19):
I’ll send you the link.
OF (33:21):
Yes please.
Next question, what is the best or worst purchaseyou have recently made in China?
ZY (33:27):
When I think back to the last years, I think the best purchase I made was…
There used to be a place in the city centre,it was called the ‘Wake Up Dead Experience’.
OF (33:37):
OK.
ZY (33:38):
Yes.
It’s a small place but very well designed.
And they had two price levels, one was 444.
OF (33:45):
Ah, 四四四 [Sìsìsì].
ZY (33:47):
Because four is 四 [sì], like ‘die’ in Chinese
OF (33:50):
Yes.
ZY (33:51):
It’s just a different tone, yeah?
OF (33:52):
So go on, then let's hear you say “four, death, four, death, four, death.”
ZY (33:55):
四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ], 四 [sì], 死 [sǐ].
OF (33:59):
Yeah.
ZY (34:00):
And another prize was 777.
七 [Qī], seven, is also a special numberwhich has to do with the seventh day after
someone has passed away, they will come backto see his family again.
OF (34:12):
Oh I see.
ZY (34:13):
Yeah, so a small ceremony would be held within the family.
On the first seven days, and then on the secondseven.
If some families are very traditional andtake it seriously, it could go on to the seventh
seven days, so like 49 days altogether.
OF (34:28):
Mmm.
ZY (34:29):
So that was the price of the ticket.
They kind of had a game designed, and foreach round of the game one person would have
to die and leave.
OF (34:38):
OK.
ZY (34:39):
And then the people who left would take a slide down, and land into…
OK, what's the word?
You know where the baby is formed in the…
OF (34:50):
Oh, womb.
ZY (34:51):
Huh?
OF (34:52):
Womb.
ZY (34:53):
Womb?
OF (34:54):
Yeah.
ZY (34:55):
In the womb.
And here you get reborn.
And then in the womb, you will wait for allthe other people to die, and then you would
all sit together with the moderator of thegame, and she would go through what she thought
is important for you.
So like we simulated the whole process.
It was very interesting.
And that's also where I got to know a doctorwho was working in children's cancer…
(35:16):
how to stay…
‘alleviative’?
OF (35:18):
Oh, cancer alleviative drugs.
ZY (35:21):
Alleviative treatment, yes.
And there she introduced me to 手牵手 [Shǒuqiānshǒu].
OF (35:25):
Oh, so that was how you first started.
ZY (35:28):
Yeah.
OF (35:29):
That would be your best purchase, I understand that.
ZY (35:31):
Yeah.
OF (35:32):
Because that led you to your entire lifestyle now.
ZY (35:34):
Yeah.
OF (35:35):
OK, next question.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
ZY (35:39):
I just sent it to you.
OF (35:41):
OK.
What’s this, can you explain it?
ZY (35:44):
Do you know this figure?
It's Timon.
OF (35:46):
It’s Disney, right?
ZY (35:47):
Yeah, from The Lion King.
OF (35:48):
Yeah, right.
ZY (35:50):
It's a mongoose actually, dancing with a Hawaiian hula skirt.
I really love it.
OF (35:56):
That's just happy one for you, is it?
ZY (35:58):
Yes.
And not just a happy one.
Because in 2021 I met my husband.
OF (36:05):
Congratulations.
ZY (36:06):
Thank you.
I'd been single for seven years before, yeahI've been waiting for him.
He looks very similar to Timon.
For me, for me.
But in the Chinese horoscope, I am the pig.
So he said “Aha OK, then you are Pumbaa."
So it has a small story behind it.
OF (36:25):
I love it.
OK, now I need to have a photo of your husband,and then I can compare.
ZY (36:29):
I will send it to you.
He's totally OK with that.
OF (36:33):
Great.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
ZY (36:36):
It’s a Chinese one.
And it's called in Chinese ‘那些花儿[Nàxiē Huāer]’ which means ‘Those Flowers’.
The song goes like “Those flowers whichI thought would be here forever have all left
me, and I don't know where they are now.
But it's lucky that I was with them when theyblossomed”.
OF (36:57):
Oh, that's very very ‘you’, that's a very Zhou Yan song.
ZY (37:01):
Yeah, but it just reminds me of my school time.
Because I am a person that usually won’tcontacted other people first.
Usually I'm waiting for them to contact me.
OF (37:12):
OK.
ZY (37:13):
So that's why I've lost my primary school mates, junior high school mates.
I have some senior high school mates becausethey approached me first.
OF (37:20):
Yeah.
ZY (37:21):
But I'm just like that.
I still think it was a very nice time thatI had with them together.
OF (37:26):
So they're just last flowers.
ZY (37:27):
Yeah.
OF (37:28):
Is this a depressing song?
Like when you sing it, does everyone startcrying?
ZY (37:32):
No no no.
No, it’s just a very beautiful one.
OF (37:34):
OK, I'll check it out.
And finally, this last question comes fromJustPod, which is the studio we are sitting
in now.
ZY (37:42):
OK.
OF (37:43):
What or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
ZY (37:47):
Listening to dying people, they will teach you a lot.
Dying people have much more wisdom than normalpeople in your daily life.
OF (37:56):
Mmm.
ZY (37:57):
Usually people don't take the time to listen to them.
Our founder told us when you want to listento the people, you should put down everything.
Because usually when we are listening to eachother, I would just think “OK, this is the
point I want to note”.
OF (38:11):
Yeah.
ZY (38:12):
But then if I put down everything, just listen to you, all my information channels
are open, and I can get much more informationthan I usually get only with my ear, yeah?
OF (38:25):
Mm-hm.
ZY (38:26):
This is very helpful.
OF (38:27):
Mmm.
ZY (38:28):
Yeah.
OF (38:29):
What a lovely way to end this conversation.
I've been trying to do the same with you,and I've also really learned a lot from you.
Thank you so much Zhou Yan.
ZY (38:36):
You're welcome.
OF (38:38):
Before I let you leave, the question I will ask you is
in China, who would you recommend that I interviewin the next season of Mosaic of China?
ZY (38:48):
I would like to introduce Darsea Liu.
She's a professional surfer.
Or better to say, she used to be a professionalsurfer.
But now she's engaged in ecology.
OF (39:00):
OK.
So she's gone from surfer to environmentalprotection, just like you went from working
in Austria to now working in volunteer work.
ZY (39:08):
Yes.
OF (39:09):
I can see the connection.
ZY (39:10):
Yeah, totally different now.
OF (39:12):
What one question would you ask her?
ZY (39:14):
I would like to ask the questions that you have asked me also, then.
What does she believe that she has got themost - up to now - from this change?
OF (39:25):
Right.
So not what she can give, but what has shereceived?
ZY (39:28):
Yes.
OF (39:29):
Mmm, very nice.
Thanks again Zhou Yan.
ZY (39:32):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: I hope you enjoyed listening to that as
much as I enjoyed making it.
Just a couple of quick clarifications, thefirst Death Café was in the UK, but the person
who came up with the idea Bernard Crettazwas himself Swiss.
(39:53):
And Zhou Yan also wanted me to make clearthat in the hospice they don’t push patients
to communicate more deeply with their families,as may have come across in the interview.
They really just talk and listen, and if anappropriate topic comes up then they would
simply try to make suggestions as part ofthe natural flow of conversation.
(40:16):
We cover some similar ground on the topicsof death and bereavement in another recent
episode, the one with the filmmaker ElaineHuang from Season 03 Episode 08, so be sure
to dip into that show if you haven’t doneso already.
And another connection to a previous episodewas on the big topic of…
(40:38):
Chinese sauerkraut.
I also talked about this with the Tourette’sadvocate Dajiang, from Season 03 Episode 15.
And finally please go online - either to themosaicofchina.com website or on social media
- to see all the images that accompany today’sshow, including Zhou Yan’s favourite WeChat
(41:00):
sticker of Timon, the mongoose from the LionKing, compared alongside a photo of her husband.
I can’t mention The Lion King without remindingyou that Season 01 Episode 01 of the show
was with Philippe Gas, President of the DisneyResort Shanghai, who also - perhaps unsurprisingly
(41:21):
- discussed The Lion King.
As I mentioned at the beginning of today’sepisode, there’s a much longer version of
my chat with Zhou Yan in the PREMIUM versionof the show, at Patreon or Apple Podcast Subscriptions
internationally, or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China.
Here are some clips:
(41:41):
[Clip 1]ZY: One day I drove 200 kilometres without
seeing one person.
Sometimes it's good.
OF (41:49):
Absolutely.
ZY (41:50):
Yeah.
[Clip 2]OF: We couldn't really talk to her.
But my father started singing, and then shejoined in.
Wow.
[Clip 3]ZY: A taxi driver who has just lost his wife
the day before.
But he still has a daughter to raise, so hehas to go back to work the next day.
[Clip 4]ZY: It's not a money earning business, yeah.
OF (42:07):
No.
ZY (42:08):
No.
OF (42:09):
Because it's standardised across the whole of Shanghai.
ZY (42:11):
Yeah.
[Clip 5]ZY: You can see maybe fruits, or maybe the
things he likes, maybe some Buddhist figuresor things like that.
[Clip 6]ZY: The hospital workers are a difficult topic.
Because they are very badly paid.
[Clip 7]OF: So when you say that that's the thing
you want to avoid, I hear you because thelast thing we did was argue about “Will
(42:31):
I brush my teeth or not?”
[Clip 8]ZY: After I finished the first sentence, she
started to sing the second one with me.
OF (42:38):
Oh.
[Clip 9]ZY: They already started to think about these
topics, and they want to hear what the othershave to say.
Which kind of sounds like you, right?
ZY (42:46):
Yes, yes.
[Clip 10]OF: It’s too direct.
Yes, yes.
OF (42:49):
Yeah, we have that bull-**** as well.
[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.
After the music, there are catch-ups withthe history professor Chang Chihyun from Season
02 Episode 03 and the playwright Nick Yu fromSeason 01 Episode 13.
(43:11):
Like I said at the top of the show, I’mgoing to take a break from Mosaic of China
for a few weeks, so I’ll see you back againfor the next full episode of Season 03 a little
later.
All that remains for me to say until thenis: I love you, I’m sorry, I forgive you,
thank you, and goodbye.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Chihyun!
CC (43:38):
Hi.
OF (43:41):
Good to see you, man.
CC (43:44):
It's very nice to see you too.
OF (43:46):
You are looking very fit.
CC (43:48):
I want to lose another 20 pounds.
OF (43:51):
Right!
CC (43:52):
Yeah.
OF (43:53):
This was a lockdown plan, or..?
CC (43:54):
It was an accidental/lockdown plan.
Since I had a lot of time, I thought it wasa great idea for me to experiment and try
to adapt my diet.
OF (44:05):
That's incredible.
So really, this is an entire lifestyle change?
CC (44:10):
I think it will be a lifestyle change.
I still drink.
I still eat meat.
But the frequency…
OF (44:16):
Yeah.
CC (44:17):
…Is not as high any more.
OF (44:19):
Yeah.
Well, you were quite famous for the way thatyou handled your relationships in the university.
So people who don't know you, you are a professorat Jiaotong University.
CC (44:31):
Yes.
OF (44:32):
In the Humanities Department.
CC (44:33):
Humanities School and History Department.
OF (44:36):
Oh, got it.
CC (44:37):
Yeah.
OF (44:38):
And part of the way that you communicated was through taking out your students and having
a drink together, having a nice meal together.
So it's gonna be interesting to see how thatchanges in the future.
CC (44:48):
That will be rough, right?
I think I really have to find a better way,right?
Yeah.
OF (44:54):
Well let's talk about life in the university.
Because it used to be an area where it wasquite international, I used to bump into many
international people.
But of course, many people on student visasstill can't return to China.
CC (45:07):
No they can't.
OF (45:08):
So as an update to our episode, what has happened in the last 18 months?
CC (45:13):
I think it is the biggest pity, I have to say.
Because the biggest change is, every cornerin the world is not globalised anymore.
Especially universities are particularly cautiousabout whether or not we should let foreign
students come into the campus.
This caused a lot of damage to our academicperformance and advancement.
(45:40):
Academics mean controversies, controversiesbring in advancement.
It is necessary.
We have to respect - and we have to listento - some different ideas.
But if we cannot meet people in person, trustme they're not going to tell you what they
really think over Zoom or Tencent Conference,they're not going to do that.
OF (46:00):
Yeah.
CC (46:01):
You really have to get some drinks first.
OF (46:02):
Yeah.
CC (46:03):
So I think that is the biggest problem.
And to be very honest, it's deeply worriesme.
I think it would be a very difficult timefor China to attract international talent.
Some people will say that the good part isthat we can attract Chinese talents who have
got a foreign degree, back to China.
OF (46:21):
True.
CC (46:22):
And they can fill in the gap.
I don't agree.
Because we'd just recruit a bunch of losers.
They can't find a proper job in the UK orin the USA or in Japan.
That's the ugly truth.
OF (46:35):
The people who want to come back so soon are the ones who can't find something there.
CC (46:40):
Yes.
OF (46:41):
Mmm.
CC (46:42):
The reason why I understand this, is because Taiwanese universities experienced exactly
the same thing 20 years ago.
OF (46:49):
See, this is why it's useful to talk to an historian, right?
You can see the patterns.
CC (46:55):
Yeah.
OF (46:56):
Especially your particular field is in the history of international trade, right?
CC (47:00):
Yes.
OF (47:01):
So that is so relevant to global geopolitics these days.
Are we learning from the past?
We're not really learning, are we?
CC (47:09):
The only thing I can say we learn from history is that human beings don't learn from
history.
OF (47:14):
Yes.
CC (47:15):
Too bad.
OF (47:16):
Yeah.
CC (47:17):
Too dumb.
OF (47:18):
It’s also about policies that they have enacted, which have had an effect on education
in the last couple of years.
And I think it's mainly been in primary andsecondary education, I believe.
Has there been anything which has affectedtertiary education?
CC (47:31):
Right now we can't see the impact.
But I think it will influence the universityeducation.
I think one of the biggest parts - and probablyyou have heard - is that the primary school
or elementary schools don't teach Englishany more.
I understand why.
Nowadays, when you see a 10-year-old child,they would spend something like 10 hours a
(47:58):
week to study Chinese, but they spend like30 hours on English.
OF (48:04):
Thirty?
CC (48:05):
3-0.
OF (48:06):
Versus ten on Chinese.
CC (48:07):
Yeah.
OF (48:08):
Seriously.
CC (48:09):
This sort of debate has been discussed for over 120 years since the signing of the
Boxer Protocol.
OF (48:19):
Is that 1905?
No.
CC (48:21):
1900.
OF (48:22):
1900.
CC (48:23):
Yeah.
And then people would say that we should stickto the traditional scholarship, 旧学 [jiùxué].
Or the new - or advanced - scholarship, 新学[xīnxué].
That sort of debate can last forever.
And of course, you would think of the bestway is that we should value both.
But trust me, my brain is not good enough.
(48:44):
I can only focus on very few things, right?
So I understand why the government is worried.
Because I am worried.
How about literary Chinese?
Personally, I think it is very beautiful.
How about traditional poetry?
But they don't really care, they care aboutEnglish.
So I understand why.
OF (49:05):
Mmm.
CC (49:06):
But you know, the government wants to do something right.
But when they made the idea into a policy,that would go to a very extreme way.
And then no one can stop it.
OF (49:19):
That's so well said.
Yeah.
Because you can see the intention, but theneverything is so heavy-handed when it comes
to the implementation.
CC (49:28):
Yeah.
OF (49:29):
There are certain provinces where you always see the implementation is 100%
CC (49:33):
Or 120%.
OF (49:35):
Right!
They go overboard.
CC (49:37):
Yes.
OF (49:38):
When you were teaching me about sinology and history, we were talking about a time
when in the West there would be rumours ofthe East, and that's how the first ideas of
China permeated into the Western world.
It kind of feels like we're going back tothat situation, because so few people can
actually step foot in China, all I hear fromthe West is like “Oh, what's happening in
(49:59):
that distant mystical land of China?”
I do hope that at some point, there will bea recrossing of people from one side to the
other, because it really sometimes feels likewe're on a different planet here.
That's the thing where I hope people likeyou can still try to bridge that gap.
CC (50:15):
I think this is the reason why I took the job of the Director of the Modern Chinese
Studies course, which is an international-taughtprogramme.
China has a lot of difficult issues.
We have to be understanding first, and thenwe can make our decision or verdict extremely
(50:37):
cautiously.
Misunderstanding can be caused by no understanding.
OF (50:42):
Mmm.
I am very grateful that I met you, and thatyou have been my professor.
CC (50:47):
Thank you very much.
OF (50:48):
And that you, of course, came on to the podcast.
It was great to talk to you then, and it'sgreat to see you now.
I hope that we will continue to stay in touch.
CC (50:56):
We will.
Thank you very much indeed.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Nick, good to see you.
NY (51:01):
Nice to meet you.
OF (51:03):
I think you have a tough time today to speak to me in English, because you don't
use English so much these days.
NY (51:11):
Yeah, for almost three years I haven’y used any English.
OF (51:15):
Ach.
NY (51:16):
But sometimes I teach English with my son at home.
OF (51:20):
To practice his schoolwork.
NY (51:21):
Yeah, yeah.
That is the only chance for me.
OF (51:25):
Ah.
I’ve put you in a very uncomfortable positiontoday.
NY (51:29):
I try to get back.
OF (51:31):
OK.
You can do it.
Nick, for people who did not listen to ouroriginal episode, you are two things.
NY (51:38):
Mm-hm.
OF (51:39):
You are a playwright.
NY (51:40):
Yeah.
OF (51:41):
And you are the Director of the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre.
NY (51:44):
Yeah.
OF (51:45):
So I remember we had a catch-up - that was already, I think, 18 months ago - the
catch-up was in ‘COVID One’, now we are‘COVID Two’
NY (51:56):
Yeah.
OF (51:57):
And last time - I wasn't surprised, because you write and write and write - but last time
you said that during the first lockdown in2020, I think you finished five plays.
You also finished your PhD?
NY (52:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh yeah, I got my memory back.
OF (52:16):
Yes.
So what happened this time?
Did you also write many plays?
NY (52:20):
I wrote three plays.
Two of them will be produced this year.
But we have several plays that we alreadyhave planned to put on the stage.
For example, a musical.
We want to do 200 performances, almost a half-yearrun.
OF (52:38):
Wow.
NY (52:39):
Yeah.
So that is a big plan for our theatre.
I think the audience still need the theatre.
OF (52:43):
Yeah.
NY (52:44):
They need to go to the theatre in person.
OF (52:46):
Yeah.
It's an intimate, enclosed environment.
NY (52:48):
Yeah.
A private space, to think about situationsyou’ve never encountered in your life.
But you can imagine it in the theatre, inthat place.
So I think that is why the audience go tothe theatre.
OF (53:03):
Yeah.
What about then the content?
Because I remember when we talked last time,you said that during 2020 what was popular
back then was stand-up comedy.
NY (53:15):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (53:16):
Which was quite new in China.
What about this time?
Have you seen certain content, certain genres,being more popular?
NY (53:23):
Musicals.
Almost every week there’s a new musicalcoming out.
Before, I never thought that would happen.
But that suddenly happened.
Because musicals from overseas cannot cometo China.
OF (53:37):
Yeah.
I mean, I hope it bounces back.
And I'm really glad to at least see that you'rebeing productive; there is creativity happening
in Shanghai; and there is optimism.
At least, let's see what happens in the future.
NY (53:49):
Yeah.
OF (53:50):
Thank you so much again, for being part of this Mosaic family.
NY (53:54):
Thank you.
OF (53:55):
I hope that every year we have a chance to say hello.
NY (53:57):
Thank you.
I wish too.
Yeah.
OF (54:00):
Thanks so much Nick.
NY (54:01):
Thank you.
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