August 12, 2019 • 38 mins
At the time of recording, Philippe Gas was the President & General Manager of the Shanghai Disney Resort. Philippe is one of the most charming business leaders I’ve met, and in this interview, we talk about his experiences in the five or so years that he has been with Disneyland in Shanghai, from the tail-end of the construction phase to today, where the Resort has been open for around 3 years. Among other things, we talk about how Philippe managed local and international stakeholders, about the Chinese consumer and their tastes on everything from Snow White to Star Wars, and most importantly how the Disney organisation has itself managed to adapt to the needs of the China market. Philippe and I recorded this in my apartment in Shanghai, so the sound quality isn’t as good as the interviews that I’ve done in the studio. But I hope it doesn’t distract you from what was otherwise a great conversation. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:59 - Part 1 28:38 - Part 2 36:33 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]PG: A few of the actors, including Mark Ruffalo
(The Hulk) wanted after the Premiere to havea chance to do a few rides. And I thought
this is… it was gonna be a riot. I mean,this guy is amazingly popular, Tom Holland
same thing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
(00:25):
about people who are making their mark inChina. When all of their stories are pieced
together, they form a Mosaic of China. I'myour host Oscar Fuchs.
In today's episode, the first in Season 01,I talked with Philippe Gas, who at the time
of recording was the President and GeneralManager of the Shanghai Disney Resort. Philippe
is one of the most charming business leadersI've met. And in this interview, we talk about
(00:47):
his experiences in the five or so years thathe's been with Shanghai Disneyland, from the
tail-end of the construction phase to today,where the park has been open for around three
years. Among other things, we talk about howPhilippe managed local and international stakeholders;
about the Chinese consumer and their tasteson everything from Snow White to Star Wars;
and most importantly, how the Disney organisationhas itself managed to adapt to the needs of
(01:11):
the China market.
Since this is Episode 01, let me quickly explainthe format of the interview. There are three
parts. The first part is just a two-way conversation.But it starts with the guest introducing an
object that in some way describes their lifein China. In the second part, I ask every
guest the same 10 China-related questions,all on the theme of their personal experiences,
(01:33):
tastes and opinions. And then in the finalpart, the guest recommends someone for me
to talk to in the next season of Mosaic ofChina, which I'll be starting to record in
the autumn of 2019. So back to today's interview,Philippe and I recorded this in my apartment
in Shanghai, so the sound quality isn't asgood as the interviews that I've done in the
studio. But it won't distract you from whatI hope is otherwise a great conversation.
(01:57):
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming Philippe.
I'm sitting here with Philippe Gas, who isthe President and General Manager of Shanghai
Disney Resort.PG: Good morning.
OF (02:08):
Good morning to you. And you've now been in Disney for how long? It's been..
PG (02:12):
I have been with the Walt Disney Company for almost 28 years. So a long time, a lifetime.
OF (02:17):
Wow, well we'll get onto that. But first of all, as you know, the first question I
ask everyone on this podcast is, tell me aboutthe object. What object have you brought in
today?PG: So it's not really an object, it’s a
picture. And it has to do with my arrivalin China, and all the anxiety I could have,
(02:38):
given the immensity of the task that I wasgiven. And it was something that our CEO Bob
Iger was always repeating and repeating. Hewanted Shanghai Disney Resort to be authentically
Disney, but distinctly Chinese. And I receivedas a matter of fact, a few days after I arrived
(02:59):
here, a picture of Mickey Mouse, a plush ofMickey Mouse, on the Great Wall of China.
And first of all, it’s a beautiful picture,because The Great Wall is a beautiful monument
and a masterpiece of what China can deliver.But it was for me the perfect combination
of what I was here to do. Something very Disney,but respectful of the culture of China, and
(03:22):
embracing China.OF: Well, that's a great starting point. And
at what point in the long project, which wasthe whole building of Shanghai Disneyland,
at what point did you physically come intoChina?
PG (03:34):
I arrived approximately two years before the park opened. So just at a time where we
were in very intense discussions with ourgovernment partner on what will be the date
of the opening. Because you know, it's a veryimportant thing. Once you say what date it
is, you have to open that day, no matter whathappens. So it was really the first thing
(03:58):
I had to do, was to be involved and work withthe government on what that date would be.
Two years before the opening, approximately.OF: Did you stick to that date, then ultimately?
Well, it took us a little bit of time, it took us another six months before we were
able to have enough confidence in our abilityto deliver. But once we did announce it, yes,
(04:19):
it was that one. June 16, 2016.OF: Well, congratulations. And in terms of
the construction project then. If you comejust two years before opening, at what stage
was the construction then?PG: We had broken a couple of years before
I arrived. We had contractors on site. TheWalt Disney company staff - the cast members
(04:39):
- were not there yet. We had no back office,no structure ready to accommodate that. Only
for the project, the field people. But itwas pretty well advanced. The hotels were
building up quite well. The park was whattook the most time. It's the most complicated,
typically, because of the theming. And especiallybecause of the expectations and the sense
(05:00):
of perfection that Disney requires, when itcomes to how you immerse people in a story.
And that was maybe the most foreign for ourChinese contractors and our Chinese partners.
OF (05:11):
Yeah, cuz, just when you see here in Shanghai, there's a new shop opening, it says “launching
in one month”, and you see that sign twomonths later, three months later, even a small
shop. And so whenever I see that in Shanghai,I always think of the Disneyland project,
where you had so many things going on at thesame time. You mentioned the expectations
with the constructors, can you think of oneor two examples of when you were not on the
(05:34):
same path as them?PG: We’ve always been on the same path,
in the sense that the contractors had a veryhigh sense of pride to be involved in a project
like this. Remember, it was the big projectthat China launched, when it comes to this
type of partnership with a Western company.It was the biggest investment of the Walt
Disney company in its history. And definitelyeverybody was very proud. The Chinese partners
(05:55):
and contractors were very proud to be involved.The thing is, there are things you don't know,
and expectations that are very different fromwhat you would naturally be doing if you were
to deliver the same thing. An example is allthe rocks, the rock work that you see in the
park, the mountains that appear to be veryreal. We have the highest and the tallest
mountain in Pudong, manmade. It has to looklike a mountain, the painting on the rock
(06:19):
has to be very specific. They had no ideahow to get there. So we didn't have to…
it was more than just having them go and dothis, it was first months and months of us
training them. Having people come, teachersto help teach them how to do the work, and
then send them on the field to go and do it.As an example, what would take a few months
(06:43):
in a place where we do it directly, took afew years here in Shanghai because of the
need to educate, to control, to test, to doagain, to change. So everything was multiplied,
because of the fact that we would still notcompromise on the quality we wanted to deliver.
It had to be a Disney-level quality, no matterwhere you are in the world, and that requires
(07:07):
more work and education. But the partnersand the contractors were actually very excited,
because they saw the value for them to bringup the level of technicality, their level
of expertise in a field they had not touched.OF: And do you think that from then, you've
seen those same contractors do other worksimilar to Disneyland? Or do you think that's
still going to be a one-off project, moreor less?
PG (07:28):
Well at this stage, as you know, there's not that many projects of that magnitude in
this area of themed entertainment. I wouldsay, as you know in Beijing, Universal Studios
is ramping up, they have started the construction.And I suppose that some of the employees that
were working on the Shanghai project willbring that expertise elsewhere. There's an
(07:52):
entire level, it's not just about the technicality.It's also about how the contractors on the
field approach their work when it comes tosafety. As you know, China is a developing
market when it comes to safety regulationsand rules. They are very focused on that.
But they're not there yet. We brought in,directly, the level of standards of safety
(08:16):
and risk management that we apply everywherein the world. That has been years and years
of our Chinese partners and contractors workingwith those guidelines, with those principles.
And that also has helped move up the levelof attention, the level of focus, on something
very important, which is preserving the lifeof people.
OF (08:35):
And you mentioned those relationships you had with the contractors, it makes me
think about the other relationships that youhad to manage in Disneyland, in the whole
project. Most importantly, I guess, the jointventure partnership you had with the Shanghai
government, right? How did that start offfor you?
PG (08:50):
Well, it's something that I’ve, even though the context is very different, I was
prior to this job the CEO of Eurodisney forseven years. And the construct of Eurodisney
is very similar to the construct of ShanghaiDisney Resort in the sense that we have one
major partner in Paris, and that’s the Frenchgovernment. A government is a government.
(09:11):
Culturally speaking, things are different,politically speaking, and philosophically
speaking also. But the way they look at theissues are very similar. They look at the
issues through the eyes of the consumer asan elector or as a citizen, that has to be
satisfied, that you are here to protect. Andthat's always going to be their screen. A
(09:32):
business does not always look at it this way.They look at that from a demand perspective,
from a consumer service perspective, froma business profitability perspective. And
those not always align instinctively. There'salways sometimes a difference. And that's
what happens. So I was aware of what the challengewould be. And my main biggest focus when I
arrived was to spend a lot of time with them.The chairman of the board was a member of
(09:56):
the of the Shanghai government, and my focushas been on establishing trust. And having
realised that Shanghai Disney is being a jointventure, the majority owner being the Shanghai
Government, I was eager to help.OF: Right, what was the exact share? How much
does the Shanghai government own?PG: 57% for the Shanghai government and 43%
(10:18):
for the Walt Disney Company, so the majorityowner. And so they realised that my purpose
was not to be the Disney guy, telling themwhat to do. But being somebody who understood
that to succeed, you have to make the bestbalance. We are Disney, we brought an expertise
in a field that they didn't have an expertise.But we were very new to the Chinese market,
(10:41):
the Chinese consumers, to the relationshipwith the contractors. And we were ready to
use them as guides, as advisors, and realisewhat we can bring and what they can bring,
will make, eventually, the project succeed.OF: And so what was that, then? When you said
that you didn't just teach them about Disneyand come here to just give them a lecture,
(11:05):
what did you actually learn from them, thatmaybe you weren't expecting, or you were surprised
about?PG: It was a lot about these preconceived
ideas you have on especially the Chinese consumersand their expectations, or how you adapt your
product to what the real needs are, versuswhat you think you want to give them. A Chinese
(11:26):
consumer is not an American consumer; a ChineseDisney fan is not a US Disney fan. The level
of knowledge of the brand itself is completelydifferent, people don't know the Disney brand
very much. They know the name Disney. Buthow much could they relate to what the stories
are? How much do they connect emotionally?That was not there. And we came in blind,
(11:48):
because, as you are Disney and how successfulwe can be around the world, we think everybody
knows us. We think that this is going to befine. We have learned the hard way this is
not always the case, Paris was an exampleof that, and Hong Kong and others. So we have
developed that ability to expect what we don'tknow. But still, they have helped guide us
in terms of, don't fall through the traps,do not develop a product that is not going
(12:13):
to be relevant for the Chinese market. Butmost of all, they have been very helpful when
it comes to helping us navigate the maze ofthe Chinese administration, that is maybe
more foreign than the consumers, for us. Andthey've been very, very helpful.
OF (12:31):
Well there’s a lot of points you made there. Maybe I'll focus in on the Disney IP,
and what you said works in some countries,some markets that did not resonate here in
China, and vice versa. Can you think of whichparticular characters or which particular
IP was more successful than you had imagined?And which was completely less?
PG (12:49):
Well, I mean, a good example is… the big surprise for me was a very, very classic
princess, Snow White, that is extremely popularhere in Shanghai. And looking back we realised
that one of the big connection that the Chineseand the Shanghainese have with Snow White
(13:11):
is that this movie was actually one of thefew animated movies released in China, back
then, talking about in the late 30s. And thathas stayed in the stories that the parents
were telling to their kids, and so on. Sothat is very popular. Some of the most new,
what you would think maybe one of the mostpopular franchise that Disney owns today:
(13:35):
Star Wars. Very popular throughout the world,as you know, a cult franchise for many many
people, leaves our Chinese consumers prettycold. It's a complicated story, they did not
get the chance to immerse themselves in thesaga back in the 1970s, late 70s, and that
(13:56):
has been complicated for us. The tidal waveof success of the of the new movies being
released throughout the world, were definitelynot as successful in China. So that's a good
example of franchises that may take a lotof time to be built, or won’t work.
OF (14:15):
But then now, with Disney having Marvel as well, you've got a few more chances to
have another bite of that apple right?PG: Yes, Marvel is different. Marvel has been
very powerful. I think there's also a greatthing about the Chinese people, they love
stars. And they connect very well with namesthat they've seen in other movies. Iron Man,
(14:35):
for example, Robert Downey Jr., he's an immensestar here in China. And many of the other
actors. I was shocked when we had one of thepremieres of Avengers in the park, Shanghai
Disney Resort, and a few of the actors includingMark Ruffalo (The Hulk) wanted after the Premiere
(14:57):
to have a chance to go and do a few rides.So I took them, Tom Holland (Spiderman) was
there too. So Tom Holland, Mark Ruffalo andmyself plus a few others, we go on a ride,
they wanted to do Tron, the attraction. Andwe got into the backstage, we start to go
through the queues. And some people startgoing out of the ride that they had finished.
(15:21):
Chinese consumers. They saw Mark Ruffalo,and I though this is.. it was gonna be a riot.
I mean, this guy is amazingly popular, TomHolland same thing. And it surprised me. And
I know them, I've seen a lot of their moviesoutside of Avengers, I was shocked, to tell
you really, the level of excitement that veryspontaneously the Chinese consumers, our guests,
(15:44):
had when they saw those two actors. So Avengersand Marvel is very successful here in, in
this marketplace and throughout the world.OF: Let’s go back to another point that
you said, which was about how you deal withthe general bureaucracy and red tape, and
how your joint venture partners would havehelped you navigate that. Your perspective
would be quite unique, because I think mostpeople who I speak to, would usually work
(16:08):
in a wholly-owned foreign entity. And youbeing a joint venture, and such a high profile
joint venture at that, what particular thingsdid you experience that you think perhaps
other CEOs in other less complex organisationswouldn't have experienced?
PG (16:23):
Well, as you said, this project is as important for the Walt Disney Company as it
is for the Chinese government. It has beenan immense reflection of the opening of China
to tourism. It’s a milestone in that developmentof tourism in the country. And our Chinese
partners, from the central government in Beijingto the local government here in Shanghai and
(16:46):
Pudong, have been extremely, extremely helpful.When it comes to help us go through the maze
of some of the difficulties we could haveencountered. An example of that, something
that can sound and seem trivial, is the LionKing, the Broadway show that we have: the
customs is actually one of the biggest issuesyou can find, any company, can face when you
(17:09):
come to importing material or products fromanother country. It's one thing when you bring
some wood to make furniture, but in our case,we're bringing feathers from very exotic birds
from places that God knows only, and otherthings. And that was a headache for the authorities,
(17:30):
that you know, as in any country, if I don'tunderstand what that is I block everything.
Now we have a show to open, we have rehearsalto take place, we have costumes to build.
Our partners have been immensely useful andsupportive of us to help us green-light the
arrival of those parts. We are complicatedas a company because everything we do is real.
(17:52):
So we reproduce themes, countries, areas,using the materials that exist, where they
come from. And that would take years to comein the country if we're not supported. So
we have had the chance to be able to expediteand go through many hurdles, thanks for the
(18:16):
partnership.OF: That's great. And as a consumer, you don't
realise that to get that level of detail correct,it does require that amount of effort and
that amount of headaches.PG: You don’t expect that to happen in America,
for example. Because you are here, you control,you build, you buy, you get. It is different
in a place where the rules of the game aredifferent. And we have to learn about them,
(18:39):
and learn how to address them.OF: When you're speaking about trust. How
did that work, then, when you were here inShanghai, you'd been here for a couple of
years, and then you were reporting back intothe headquarters. So that relationship must
sometimes have been just as mysterious asthe relationships you have here with your
Chinese partners?OF: Well, it's it's always a case. And that's
(19:00):
true for many of my colleagues representingforeign companies in the country that is not
theirs. You have to explain that the way thingshappen, are not happening the same way in
America, in our case. And that is somethingthat is always complicated. You have always
to justify why things have to be handled ina certain way. Even though that may surprise
(19:25):
people, it is the way it's going to be working.That we have to face. But I’ve been with
the company long enough, and around the world,to have been used to doing this. The key there
is to be yourself trusted by the people youtalk to. As we started the conversation, I
told you that I was with Disney for 28 yearsand I have worked around the world in any
location Disney has, so I'm a known entitywhen it comes to what I can do, what I can
(19:50):
deliver. And I have this relationship withthe people I was talking to that helped me
navigate through this. The other big thingwe had going for us is that Bob Iger, the
CEO of the company, has been directly, completely,involved on that project. We had Bob Iger
come every month, pretty much and gettingcloser to the opening, he was here for almost
(20:11):
three weeks in a row. So he was very closeto what was happening. He’s been one of
the biggest advocates of the Chinese marketfor the Walt Disney Company, he has connections
through Xi Jinping down to the entire organisation.So he knows China, he’s a curious man, he
knows the Chinese politics, he is very curiousabout the Chinese culture. And that was very
(20:34):
helpful because he knew already what we weretalking about.
OF (20:39):
And so going to the end of the project, was when the park opened, it was launched.
And then, of course, it started running, it'snow been a couple of years already. What was
the biggest change, not just in your role,but I guess, the biggest change in terms of
things that were unexpected or things thatdidn't work as you thought would, between
(21:03):
pre-launch, and then post-launch?PG: Nothing worked the way we thought it would.
So, it's the beauty of a market you don'tknow. You can study it, you can assume things
will happen a certain way. At the end of theday, the park opens, and the consumers, they
tell you what they really want. And they tellyou how they really behave. And that's been
(21:24):
a surprise for us from the day we opened.So I think the biggest challenge for us has
been to put all our pride on the side andadapt, adapt fast, because we also had to
be a success, we had to demonstrate that thisproject was going to be what we wanted it
to be. And so we really had to quickly un-learnwhat we thought we knew and learn what the
(21:47):
consumers were telling us. Be relevant, adaptto them, adapt our product from the food and
beverage, to the ticket price, the controlsin place, to the merchandise, to our trade
partners and the network we had established,and how we were going to work. The power of
e-commerce is amazing in this marketplace,and we had not anticipated it to be that strong,
(22:12):
for example. So, many things had to be adapted.And that's been pretty much the story of our
first two years of operation. Adapt, learn,and move: move as quickly as we can, be “nimble”
has been the word for us.OF: Which, just from an outsider's point of
view, I wouldn't say Disney internally asa culture would have had much experience with
(22:33):
that. Because when I think of Disney, I thinklook, it has a formula, it knows what it does,
it does it extremely well. So how did theculture adapt when you had to really be much
more nimble in this market?PG: Well, I think we were prepared for many
surprises, which is where they were goingto be. And we did not expect them to be as
many as we faced. But that's the thing aboutDisney, what you say is right, I mean, we
(22:55):
definitely have a leadership position whenit comes to entertainment, under all its forms
and shapes. Around the world, we've been verysuccessful, we are very successful: the connection
that people have with our brand and our storiesis just unique in the world. But you know,
there is something that we have learned also,is that we have made mistakes throughout the
(23:15):
years. And I can talk to some of the thingsthat I remember, I was involved in the opening
of Eurodisney. That has been maybe a goodexample then of the lack of knowledge by Disney
of what it means to be relevant, and adaptto people who are different from the ones
you know. Disney had been immensely successfulin the US and copy/pasted a product. and put
(23:36):
that in Europe. And in Europe, in France,it didn't work like that. It took years to
establish the connection, the trust, to adapt.And we have learned that. Hong Kong was another
step where we had learnt from the mistakesmade in Paris and tried to adapt. Still made
some more, because you always learn. So it'sbeen a road of 20+ years that has allowed
(23:59):
Disney to, if not prepare entirely, at leastbe ready for some surprises and try to anticipate.
So we've been very, very careful. And that'ssomething we did succeed in, immediately,
was balancing the success. And leaving, potentially,profitability on the table to make things
right. To balance things in the right way,To be accepted by the consumers. Even though
(24:24):
they didn't know us. we wanted people in Chinato understand that we’re coming into this
marketplace with humility. And that was numberone, then. So we have prepared ourselves.
Not for everything, but at least mentality,we were humble. And we’re still very humble.
That's great. And I guess it keeps life interesting, right? I mean, if you were just
(24:44):
to open up another park and it worked justas easily as the others, then that's not very
fun.PG: Well, yeah, that's the exciting part.
That's the thing about, you know… it feelslike a very, very expensive startup. But it
is, you just go into a place and you try tolearn as much as you can, and you try to go
fast, and this is also something very newfor Disney to go fast because we are a massive
Corporation, right? These companies tend tonot move very fast, because of process and
(25:10):
organisation. We had to be. So that was quiteexciting for us. And maybe also the most exciting
for the team here in China has been the establishmentof our own identity, our own culture. Because
remember that the 12,000 people that startedthis business in 2016… 11,000 of them had
no idea of what Disney was, maybe three monthsbefore we opened. So it is also a very massive
(25:36):
work when it comes to human resources, forexample, and culture, and communication, engagement
on how you prepare people, not on the technicalside, anybody can learn the technicality of
some food process or merchandise, it is aboutour culture, what we are, how we want to be,
(25:57):
how we want to be perceived, what we wantto give to families. And that was, I guess,
the biggest satisfaction for all of us. It’sto see how great the cast members had been
from day one, knowing where they were justa few weeks prior to their arrival.
And I happen to know that by the time that this recording will come out, you will
have left Shanghai and you'll be moving onto another thing. So what do you expect to
(26:18):
happen in the future?PG: Well, yes, I will be moving to another
part of Asia, Japan. I lived in Japan a longtime ago, 20 years ago already. Still with
the Walt Disney Company, I will be headinga very mature business there, The Tokyo Disney
Resort, which is two parks and a fantastic,success for now 35 years. And I will also
(26:42):
be engaging in running some of our globallicence businesses, out of Japan, but a more
global function. So it's a new challenge.I will have been here in Shanghai for five
years. As you said, before the opening, waybefore, to get the project ready, and open
it on time, and successfully run the operationfor a couple of years, more than that. So
(27:07):
it was part of my path, and part of my journey,and its the next step. I'm excited about that.
I'm excited to go back to Japan. And I'm lookingforward to this new page.
Well, when I launch Mosaic of Japan, I'll come and interview you again then.
PG (27:22):
Pleasure. Yes. OF
on is, who actually is the audience then,here in Shanghai Disneyland? Are they mainly
local Shanghai, people? Are they from otherparts of China? How many foreigners actually
come here?PG: It's Disney for China. So 98% of the people
coming to Shanghai Disney Resort are Chinese.The majority of them, no not majority, but
(27:46):
maybe 40 to 45%, are Shanghainese. But wehave been actually quite nicely surprised
by the numbers of people visiting from otherparts of the country. But it's mainly China
and Chinese guests coming to our park.OF: And that's what I guess the model is,
because you build it in a place where thereis a large catchment of middle class people
(28:07):
with a certain spending power. It makes methink, where will Disneyland open another
resort in the next few years? I can't seeone happening myself.
Well, time will tell. I can't answer that question, actually. But you know, Disney will
be there. There many people asking for theability to have a physical connection with
the Disney brand. So it can take many formsand many shapes. We will see.
OF (28:32):
Very good. Well, thank you so much for that, Philippe. And let's move on to Part
2.
[Part 2]OF: So Part 2, I'll ask you 10 questions,
and you can answer them either quickly, oryou can give me a little story. So number
one, what is your favourite China relatedfact?
PG (28:46):
I would say maybe one thing that has always been fascinating to me. So this is such a
big country, vast geography, and one timezone.OF: Right.
And so it has been something quite fascinating for me. Don't ask me why, but that's something.
OF (29:05):
I think what I read was that they wanted it to help unify the country from all the
way in Xinjiang to all the way east in…PG: Right, right. I get that. It still interests
me. When you wake up in Tibet, and it’sthe same time as Shanghai.
Exactly. Great. Number two, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
PG (29:27):
Well, I have two. One is… forgive my accent. I know you’re gonna look at me and
say “what is he saying?”… 周末愉快[zhōumò yúkuài], have a good weekend.
It was actually the first words I learnedin Chinese. And I was known for saying 周末愉快.
I was very active in Chinese on Fridays, typically,that was what I could use. The other one,
(29:50):
has been coming later, is 好久不见 [hǎojiǔbùjiàn], long time no see. Just because
it’s good to reunite with friends and peopleyou haven't met for a long time. So I like
this sentence. I like the way it sounds.OF: I love it. What is your favourite destination
within China?PG: Well, that's interesting. I think one
(30:12):
of the most memorable trips I have made inChina is Tibet. 18 months ago, I had the chance
with a few friends to go to Lhasa and justtravel in Tibet. And it's been a fascinating
experience. At many levels (30:27):
cultural, religious, geographic. You know, arriving and landing
in a place that is about 4600 metres is quitean experience in itself. It’s a beautiful
place.OF: Did you arrive by train or by plane
PG (30:43):
By plane, flew from Shanghai to Xian, from Xian to Lhasa. So, it's a shock, right?
As you arrive, some of my friends were shockedimmediately. It took me a little bit more
time. But it was fascinating, the place isbeautiful, and understanding how people leave
(31:04):
their religion, live Buddhism. I'm not anexpert in Buddhism, but I have been very impressed
by how connected they are all the time totheir practice and their philosophy
OF (31:17):
Great, thank you. This is a pertinent question, if you left China what would you
miss the most and what would you miss theleast?
PG (31:24):
Miss the least, easy
about Shanghai and say "oh my god, look atthe air quality”, having an app and checking
in every day was… at one point I gave up.But I won't miss that. What I will miss the
most (31:43):
the people. I found the people, especially in Shanghai which is where I lived, very close
to my culture. European, Latin, loud-speaking,saying but they think, very direct. I love
that. I remember walking in the street, maybea couple of days after I arrived, and I passed
by a truck driver, a delivery guy, who wastalking to the guy in the shop. And they were
(32:05):
screaming at each other. And I thought theywere gonna fight. Actually no, they ended
up laughing. I had no idea what they weretalking about. But I will miss that, I will
miss the people.OF: Especially in Japan where people are very,
very polite.PG: Haha, I won't get that.
OF (32:19):
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
PG (32:22):
No, nothing mystifies me I'm a very open person. So no. Something that surprises me
is that people keep offering me hot water,not telling me, so I keep being surprised
by hot water coming in. I'm always expectingthe tea bag to come. But that’s pretty much
that.OF: What’s your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?PG: There's many. When you live in Shanghai,
(32:45):
I have to say you're spoiled about that. Irecently discovered a very good Cantonese
restaurant in a hotel called Edition Hotel,it’s right off The Bund, called Canton Disco.
If you have not been there, I recommend youtry it. It’s great food, great environment,
I love this place. I have many hangouts, placeswhere I go to. I live here in the centre,
(33:07):
so there’s some Mexican food that I love,and many of my friends like to hang out there.
but this one I recommend to try.OF: Great. What's the best or worst purchase
you made in China?PG: I don’t have a worst purchase because
sometimes what you buy is… what it is. Butthe best purchase I made is, a little more
(33:28):
than a year ago, I bought a scooter. A Niuscooter. I don't want to make an advertisement,
but this is amazingly wonderful. It changedmy life in Shanghai on the weekends, the freedom
that you have to get on it and just go aroundthe French concession or explore the place.
I've been biking a lot before that. This isjust great, and I love my bike. I'm going
(33:49):
to miss it when I leave.OF: This is interesting because I was tempted
to do a scooter and then I got into the wholeMobike thing, but you're you're saying I'm
missing out?PG: Definitely. For me, yes definitely. Especially
for me and Mobike, I tend to pick the wrongones.
OF (34:04):
With obvious results. PG
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? PG
is a little baby chicken that looks very grumpyand has a cigarette in his mouth. And that’s
the way I look and I sound, I think, on Mondays.So typically I send that to anybody who's
(34:26):
talking to me on Mondays, that's the faceI make because it represents my mood. Really
my mood. Another one I have… a nicknamefor my wife is baby pig, and I have a little
baby pig as a sticker that I use sometimes.It’s done in a very nice way.
Of course, well you've just sent me them they look pretty fun so I will post them on
our social media. And what's your go-to songto sing at KTV?
PG (34:50):
I would not.. I cannot do anything but think about Beauty and the Beast. I've been
very involved in the new Broadway show thatwe have here, Shanghai Disney Resort, Beauty
and the Beast. And I have spent so much timeboth in New York and here with the team working
on that so it sticks to my mind that rightnow, I would say. Beauty and the Beast.
OF (35:10):
Great. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?PG: Well, I tend to rely on many media sources,
not just China, to check on news and stuff.On my phone, I use Xinhua News. That's the
one I use the most. And I'm happy with that.OF: Well, thank you so much, Philippe, I really
(35:30):
appreciate you coming in. And the last questionI ask everyone, which will include you is…
Who, out of everyone you know in China, wouldyou recommend that I interview next?
PG (35:39):
So I'm thinking about a colleague of mine that has been working in China for now more
than 20 years. His name is Murray King, he’sthe head of Public Affairs for Shanghai Disney
Resort. A diplomat by trade for Canada, arrivedin China through Beijing and the Canadian
embassy, moved off the public service to business,and moved to Shanghai maybe 18 years ago.
(36:05):
He is, I think, a beautiful example of somebodywho's a blend of Western and Chinese culture.
He understands the culture, speaks the language,embraces it. He’s extremely knowledgeable
about anything China-related, very curious.So I think he would be a great man to talk
(36:25):
to.OF: Sounds great Philippe, I look forward
to interviewing him. And thanks once againfor coming.
Thank you very much for having me.
[Outro]OF: Well, thanks again to Philippe for coming
to my home to record this one with me. Itwas a Saturday morning, since it was the one
time I could grab him actually for an hour.And then he was off again, on the scooter
he mentioned. Unfortunately, I totally forgotto grab a photo with him. So that's a shame.
(36:49):
But for all the other images, please go to@mosaicofchina_ on Instagram and @mosaicofchina
on Facebook. And there's also a WeChat group,so send me a note, and I'll add you there
if you like. And on these platforms, you cansee all the other images such as Philippe's
object, which was that photo of Mickey Mouseon the Great Wall; his two favourite WeChat
stickers (37:09):
one was the angry chicken and the other was the baby pig; and lots of other
goodies as well. One of these goodies actuallywas an interesting graphic I found on Wikipedia,
which shows how China was split into fivetime zones, before it was made all into one
time zone in 1949. So yeah, one for the geeksout there. I don't have any corrections from
(37:33):
this chat, other than to say that at one pointwe mentioned the French Concession, which
is a common slip, we of course meant to saythe Former French concession. It came to an
end in 1943, so definitely “former”. Andjust in case it wasn't clear with Philippe's
two favourite phrases in Chinese, so 周末快乐means happy weekend. And 好久不见 means
long time no see. And finally, yes, drinkingwarm or hot water is definitely a thing in
(37:58):
China, and elsewhere in Asia too of course.According to Chinese medicine and the internet,
drinking a glass of warm water helps the digestivesystem and supposedly aids blood flow. On
the other hand, cold water slows down organfunctions and causes muscles to contract.
Well so there you have it then. And that wasit the first episode I hope you enjoyed it.
(38:21):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; graphicsdesigned by Denny Newell; editing by Milo
de Prieto. And if you like us, please rateand comment on iTunes, or wherever you download
this podcast. Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
[Trailer]PG: A few of the actors, including Mark Ruffalo
(The Hulk) wanted after the Premiere to havea chance to do a few rides. And I thought
this is… it was gonna be a riot. I mean,this guy is amazingly popular, Tom Holland
same thing.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
(00:25):
about people who are making their mark inChina. When all of their stories are pieced
together, they form a Mosaic of China. I'myour host Oscar Fuchs.
In today's episode, the first in Season 01,I talked with Philippe Gas, who at the time
of recording was the President and GeneralManager of the Shanghai Disney Resort. Philippe
is one of the most charming business leadersI've met. And in this interview, we talk about
(00:47):
his experiences in the five or so years thathe's been with Shanghai Disneyland, from the
tail-end of the construction phase to today,where the park has been open for around three
years. Among other things, we talk about howPhilippe managed local and international stakeholders;
about the Chinese consumer and their tasteson everything from Snow White to Star Wars;
and most importantly, how the Disney organisationhas itself managed to adapt to the needs of
(01:11):
the China market.
Since this is Episode 01, let me quickly explainthe format of the interview. There are three
parts. The first part is just a two-way conversation.But it starts with the guest introducing an
object that in some way describes their lifein China. In the second part, I ask every
guest the same 10 China-related questions,all on the theme of their personal experiences,
(01:33):
tastes and opinions. And then in the finalpart, the guest recommends someone for me
to talk to in the next season of Mosaic ofChina, which I'll be starting to record in
the autumn of 2019. So back to today's interview,Philippe and I recorded this in my apartment
in Shanghai, so the sound quality isn't asgood as the interviews that I've done in the
studio. But it won't distract you from whatI hope is otherwise a great conversation.
(01:57):
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming Philippe.
I'm sitting here with Philippe Gas, who isthe President and General Manager of Shanghai
Disney Resort.PG: Good morning.
OF (02:08):
Good morning to you. And you've now been in Disney for how long? It's been..
PG (02:12):
I have been with the Walt Disney Company for almost 28 years. So a long time, a lifetime.
OF (02:17):
Wow, well we'll get onto that. But first of all, as you know, the first question I
ask everyone on this podcast is, tell me aboutthe object. What object have you brought in
today?PG: So it's not really an object, it’s a
picture. And it has to do with my arrivalin China, and all the anxiety I could have,
(02:38):
given the immensity of the task that I wasgiven. And it was something that our CEO Bob
Iger was always repeating and repeating. Hewanted Shanghai Disney Resort to be authentically
Disney, but distinctly Chinese. And I receivedas a matter of fact, a few days after I arrived
(02:59):
here, a picture of Mickey Mouse, a plush ofMickey Mouse, on the Great Wall of China.
And first of all, it’s a beautiful picture,because The Great Wall is a beautiful monument
and a masterpiece of what China can deliver.But it was for me the perfect combination
of what I was here to do. Something very Disney,but respectful of the culture of China, and
(03:22):
embracing China.OF: Well, that's a great starting point. And
at what point in the long project, which wasthe whole building of Shanghai Disneyland,
at what point did you physically come intoChina?
PG (03:34):
I arrived approximately two years before the park opened. So just at a time where we
were in very intense discussions with ourgovernment partner on what will be the date
of the opening. Because you know, it's a veryimportant thing. Once you say what date it
is, you have to open that day, no matter whathappens. So it was really the first thing
(03:58):
I had to do, was to be involved and work withthe government on what that date would be.
Two years before the opening, approximately.OF: Did you stick to that date, then ultimately?
Well, it took us a little bit of time, it took us another six months before we were
able to have enough confidence in our abilityto deliver. But once we did announce it, yes,
(04:19):
it was that one. June 16, 2016.OF: Well, congratulations. And in terms of
the construction project then. If you comejust two years before opening, at what stage
was the construction then?PG: We had broken a couple of years before
I arrived. We had contractors on site. TheWalt Disney company staff - the cast members
(04:39):
- were not there yet. We had no back office,no structure ready to accommodate that. Only
for the project, the field people. But itwas pretty well advanced. The hotels were
building up quite well. The park was whattook the most time. It's the most complicated,
typically, because of the theming. And especiallybecause of the expectations and the sense
(05:00):
of perfection that Disney requires, when itcomes to how you immerse people in a story.
And that was maybe the most foreign for ourChinese contractors and our Chinese partners.
OF (05:11):
Yeah, cuz, just when you see here in Shanghai, there's a new shop opening, it says “launching
in one month”, and you see that sign twomonths later, three months later, even a small
shop. And so whenever I see that in Shanghai,I always think of the Disneyland project,
where you had so many things going on at thesame time. You mentioned the expectations
with the constructors, can you think of oneor two examples of when you were not on the
(05:34):
same path as them?PG: We’ve always been on the same path,
in the sense that the contractors had a veryhigh sense of pride to be involved in a project
like this. Remember, it was the big projectthat China launched, when it comes to this
type of partnership with a Western company.It was the biggest investment of the Walt
Disney company in its history. And definitelyeverybody was very proud. The Chinese partners
(05:55):
and contractors were very proud to be involved.The thing is, there are things you don't know,
and expectations that are very different fromwhat you would naturally be doing if you were
to deliver the same thing. An example is allthe rocks, the rock work that you see in the
park, the mountains that appear to be veryreal. We have the highest and the tallest
mountain in Pudong, manmade. It has to looklike a mountain, the painting on the rock
(06:19):
has to be very specific. They had no ideahow to get there. So we didn't have to…
it was more than just having them go and dothis, it was first months and months of us
training them. Having people come, teachersto help teach them how to do the work, and
then send them on the field to go and do it.As an example, what would take a few months
(06:43):
in a place where we do it directly, took afew years here in Shanghai because of the
need to educate, to control, to test, to doagain, to change. So everything was multiplied,
because of the fact that we would still notcompromise on the quality we wanted to deliver.
It had to be a Disney-level quality, no matterwhere you are in the world, and that requires
(07:07):
more work and education. But the partnersand the contractors were actually very excited,
because they saw the value for them to bringup the level of technicality, their level
of expertise in a field they had not touched.OF: And do you think that from then, you've
seen those same contractors do other worksimilar to Disneyland? Or do you think that's
still going to be a one-off project, moreor less?
PG (07:28):
Well at this stage, as you know, there's not that many projects of that magnitude in
this area of themed entertainment. I wouldsay, as you know in Beijing, Universal Studios
is ramping up, they have started the construction.And I suppose that some of the employees that
were working on the Shanghai project willbring that expertise elsewhere. There's an
(07:52):
entire level, it's not just about the technicality.It's also about how the contractors on the
field approach their work when it comes tosafety. As you know, China is a developing
market when it comes to safety regulationsand rules. They are very focused on that.
But they're not there yet. We brought in,directly, the level of standards of safety
(08:16):
and risk management that we apply everywherein the world. That has been years and years
of our Chinese partners and contractors workingwith those guidelines, with those principles.
And that also has helped move up the levelof attention, the level of focus, on something
very important, which is preserving the lifeof people.
OF (08:35):
And you mentioned those relationships you had with the contractors, it makes me
think about the other relationships that youhad to manage in Disneyland, in the whole
project. Most importantly, I guess, the jointventure partnership you had with the Shanghai
government, right? How did that start offfor you?
PG (08:50):
Well, it's something that I’ve, even though the context is very different, I was
prior to this job the CEO of Eurodisney forseven years. And the construct of Eurodisney
is very similar to the construct of ShanghaiDisney Resort in the sense that we have one
major partner in Paris, and that’s the Frenchgovernment. A government is a government.
(09:11):
Culturally speaking, things are different,politically speaking, and philosophically
speaking also. But the way they look at theissues are very similar. They look at the
issues through the eyes of the consumer asan elector or as a citizen, that has to be
satisfied, that you are here to protect. Andthat's always going to be their screen. A
(09:32):
business does not always look at it this way.They look at that from a demand perspective,
from a consumer service perspective, froma business profitability perspective. And
those not always align instinctively. There'salways sometimes a difference. And that's
what happens. So I was aware of what the challengewould be. And my main biggest focus when I
arrived was to spend a lot of time with them.The chairman of the board was a member of
(09:56):
the of the Shanghai government, and my focushas been on establishing trust. And having
realised that Shanghai Disney is being a jointventure, the majority owner being the Shanghai
Government, I was eager to help.OF: Right, what was the exact share? How much
does the Shanghai government own?PG: 57% for the Shanghai government and 43%
(10:18):
for the Walt Disney Company, so the majorityowner. And so they realised that my purpose
was not to be the Disney guy, telling themwhat to do. But being somebody who understood
that to succeed, you have to make the bestbalance. We are Disney, we brought an expertise
in a field that they didn't have an expertise.But we were very new to the Chinese market,
(10:41):
the Chinese consumers, to the relationshipwith the contractors. And we were ready to
use them as guides, as advisors, and realisewhat we can bring and what they can bring,
will make, eventually, the project succeed.OF: And so what was that, then? When you said
that you didn't just teach them about Disneyand come here to just give them a lecture,
(11:05):
what did you actually learn from them, thatmaybe you weren't expecting, or you were surprised
about?PG: It was a lot about these preconceived
ideas you have on especially the Chinese consumersand their expectations, or how you adapt your
product to what the real needs are, versuswhat you think you want to give them. A Chinese
(11:26):
consumer is not an American consumer; a ChineseDisney fan is not a US Disney fan. The level
of knowledge of the brand itself is completelydifferent, people don't know the Disney brand
very much. They know the name Disney. Buthow much could they relate to what the stories
are? How much do they connect emotionally?That was not there. And we came in blind,
(11:48):
because, as you are Disney and how successfulwe can be around the world, we think everybody
knows us. We think that this is going to befine. We have learned the hard way this is
not always the case, Paris was an exampleof that, and Hong Kong and others. So we have
developed that ability to expect what we don'tknow. But still, they have helped guide us
in terms of, don't fall through the traps,do not develop a product that is not going
(12:13):
to be relevant for the Chinese market. Butmost of all, they have been very helpful when
it comes to helping us navigate the maze ofthe Chinese administration, that is maybe
more foreign than the consumers, for us. Andthey've been very, very helpful.
OF (12:31):
Well there’s a lot of points you made there. Maybe I'll focus in on the Disney IP,
and what you said works in some countries,some markets that did not resonate here in
China, and vice versa. Can you think of whichparticular characters or which particular
IP was more successful than you had imagined?And which was completely less?
PG (12:49):
Well, I mean, a good example is… the big surprise for me was a very, very classic
princess, Snow White, that is extremely popularhere in Shanghai. And looking back we realised
that one of the big connection that the Chineseand the Shanghainese have with Snow White
(13:11):
is that this movie was actually one of thefew animated movies released in China, back
then, talking about in the late 30s. And thathas stayed in the stories that the parents
were telling to their kids, and so on. Sothat is very popular. Some of the most new,
what you would think maybe one of the mostpopular franchise that Disney owns today:
(13:35):
Star Wars. Very popular throughout the world,as you know, a cult franchise for many many
people, leaves our Chinese consumers prettycold. It's a complicated story, they did not
get the chance to immerse themselves in thesaga back in the 1970s, late 70s, and that
(13:56):
has been complicated for us. The tidal waveof success of the of the new movies being
released throughout the world, were definitelynot as successful in China. So that's a good
example of franchises that may take a lotof time to be built, or won’t work.
OF (14:15):
But then now, with Disney having Marvel as well, you've got a few more chances to
have another bite of that apple right?PG: Yes, Marvel is different. Marvel has been
very powerful. I think there's also a greatthing about the Chinese people, they love
stars. And they connect very well with namesthat they've seen in other movies. Iron Man,
(14:35):
for example, Robert Downey Jr., he's an immensestar here in China. And many of the other
actors. I was shocked when we had one of thepremieres of Avengers in the park, Shanghai
Disney Resort, and a few of the actors includingMark Ruffalo (The Hulk) wanted after the Premiere
(14:57):
to have a chance to go and do a few rides.So I took them, Tom Holland (Spiderman) was
there too. So Tom Holland, Mark Ruffalo andmyself plus a few others, we go on a ride,
they wanted to do Tron, the attraction. Andwe got into the backstage, we start to go
through the queues. And some people startgoing out of the ride that they had finished.
(15:21):
Chinese consumers. They saw Mark Ruffalo,and I though this is.. it was gonna be a riot.
I mean, this guy is amazingly popular, TomHolland same thing. And it surprised me. And
I know them, I've seen a lot of their moviesoutside of Avengers, I was shocked, to tell
you really, the level of excitement that veryspontaneously the Chinese consumers, our guests,
(15:44):
had when they saw those two actors. So Avengersand Marvel is very successful here in, in
this marketplace and throughout the world.OF: Let’s go back to another point that
you said, which was about how you deal withthe general bureaucracy and red tape, and
how your joint venture partners would havehelped you navigate that. Your perspective
would be quite unique, because I think mostpeople who I speak to, would usually work
(16:08):
in a wholly-owned foreign entity. And youbeing a joint venture, and such a high profile
joint venture at that, what particular thingsdid you experience that you think perhaps
other CEOs in other less complex organisationswouldn't have experienced?
PG (16:23):
Well, as you said, this project is as important for the Walt Disney Company as it
is for the Chinese government. It has beenan immense reflection of the opening of China
to tourism. It’s a milestone in that developmentof tourism in the country. And our Chinese
partners, from the central government in Beijingto the local government here in Shanghai and
(16:46):
Pudong, have been extremely, extremely helpful.When it comes to help us go through the maze
of some of the difficulties we could haveencountered. An example of that, something
that can sound and seem trivial, is the LionKing, the Broadway show that we have: the
customs is actually one of the biggest issuesyou can find, any company, can face when you
(17:09):
come to importing material or products fromanother country. It's one thing when you bring
some wood to make furniture, but in our case,we're bringing feathers from very exotic birds
from places that God knows only, and otherthings. And that was a headache for the authorities,
(17:30):
that you know, as in any country, if I don'tunderstand what that is I block everything.
Now we have a show to open, we have rehearsalto take place, we have costumes to build.
Our partners have been immensely useful andsupportive of us to help us green-light the
arrival of those parts. We are complicatedas a company because everything we do is real.
(17:52):
So we reproduce themes, countries, areas,using the materials that exist, where they
come from. And that would take years to comein the country if we're not supported. So
we have had the chance to be able to expediteand go through many hurdles, thanks for the
(18:16):
partnership.OF: That's great. And as a consumer, you don't
realise that to get that level of detail correct,it does require that amount of effort and
that amount of headaches.PG: You don’t expect that to happen in America,
for example. Because you are here, you control,you build, you buy, you get. It is different
in a place where the rules of the game aredifferent. And we have to learn about them,
(18:39):
and learn how to address them.OF: When you're speaking about trust. How
did that work, then, when you were here inShanghai, you'd been here for a couple of
years, and then you were reporting back intothe headquarters. So that relationship must
sometimes have been just as mysterious asthe relationships you have here with your
Chinese partners?OF: Well, it's it's always a case. And that's
(19:00):
true for many of my colleagues representingforeign companies in the country that is not
theirs. You have to explain that the way thingshappen, are not happening the same way in
America, in our case. And that is somethingthat is always complicated. You have always
to justify why things have to be handled ina certain way. Even though that may surprise
(19:25):
people, it is the way it's going to be working.That we have to face. But I’ve been with
the company long enough, and around the world,to have been used to doing this. The key there
is to be yourself trusted by the people youtalk to. As we started the conversation, I
told you that I was with Disney for 28 yearsand I have worked around the world in any
location Disney has, so I'm a known entitywhen it comes to what I can do, what I can
(19:50):
deliver. And I have this relationship withthe people I was talking to that helped me
navigate through this. The other big thingwe had going for us is that Bob Iger, the
CEO of the company, has been directly, completely,involved on that project. We had Bob Iger
come every month, pretty much and gettingcloser to the opening, he was here for almost
(20:11):
three weeks in a row. So he was very closeto what was happening. He’s been one of
the biggest advocates of the Chinese marketfor the Walt Disney Company, he has connections
through Xi Jinping down to the entire organisation.So he knows China, he’s a curious man, he
knows the Chinese politics, he is very curiousabout the Chinese culture. And that was very
(20:34):
helpful because he knew already what we weretalking about.
OF (20:39):
And so going to the end of the project, was when the park opened, it was launched.
And then, of course, it started running, it'snow been a couple of years already. What was
the biggest change, not just in your role,but I guess, the biggest change in terms of
things that were unexpected or things thatdidn't work as you thought would, between
(21:03):
pre-launch, and then post-launch?PG: Nothing worked the way we thought it would.
So, it's the beauty of a market you don'tknow. You can study it, you can assume things
will happen a certain way. At the end of theday, the park opens, and the consumers, they
tell you what they really want. And they tellyou how they really behave. And that's been
(21:24):
a surprise for us from the day we opened.So I think the biggest challenge for us has
been to put all our pride on the side andadapt, adapt fast, because we also had to
be a success, we had to demonstrate that thisproject was going to be what we wanted it
to be. And so we really had to quickly un-learnwhat we thought we knew and learn what the
(21:47):
consumers were telling us. Be relevant, adaptto them, adapt our product from the food and
beverage, to the ticket price, the controlsin place, to the merchandise, to our trade
partners and the network we had established,and how we were going to work. The power of
e-commerce is amazing in this marketplace,and we had not anticipated it to be that strong,
(22:12):
for example. So, many things had to be adapted.And that's been pretty much the story of our
first two years of operation. Adapt, learn,and move: move as quickly as we can, be “nimble”
has been the word for us.OF: Which, just from an outsider's point of
view, I wouldn't say Disney internally asa culture would have had much experience with
(22:33):
that. Because when I think of Disney, I thinklook, it has a formula, it knows what it does,
it does it extremely well. So how did theculture adapt when you had to really be much
more nimble in this market?PG: Well, I think we were prepared for many
surprises, which is where they were goingto be. And we did not expect them to be as
many as we faced. But that's the thing aboutDisney, what you say is right, I mean, we
(22:55):
definitely have a leadership position whenit comes to entertainment, under all its forms
and shapes. Around the world, we've been verysuccessful, we are very successful: the connection
that people have with our brand and our storiesis just unique in the world. But you know,
there is something that we have learned also,is that we have made mistakes throughout the
(23:15):
years. And I can talk to some of the thingsthat I remember, I was involved in the opening
of Eurodisney. That has been maybe a goodexample then of the lack of knowledge by Disney
of what it means to be relevant, and adaptto people who are different from the ones
you know. Disney had been immensely successfulin the US and copy/pasted a product. and put
(23:36):
that in Europe. And in Europe, in France,it didn't work like that. It took years to
establish the connection, the trust, to adapt.And we have learned that. Hong Kong was another
step where we had learnt from the mistakesmade in Paris and tried to adapt. Still made
some more, because you always learn. So it'sbeen a road of 20+ years that has allowed
(23:59):
Disney to, if not prepare entirely, at leastbe ready for some surprises and try to anticipate.
So we've been very, very careful. And that'ssomething we did succeed in, immediately,
was balancing the success. And leaving, potentially,profitability on the table to make things
right. To balance things in the right way,To be accepted by the consumers. Even though
(24:24):
they didn't know us. we wanted people in Chinato understand that we’re coming into this
marketplace with humility. And that was numberone, then. So we have prepared ourselves.
Not for everything, but at least mentality,we were humble. And we’re still very humble.
That's great. And I guess it keeps life interesting, right? I mean, if you were just
(24:44):
to open up another park and it worked justas easily as the others, then that's not very
fun.PG: Well, yeah, that's the exciting part.
That's the thing about, you know… it feelslike a very, very expensive startup. But it
is, you just go into a place and you try tolearn as much as you can, and you try to go
fast, and this is also something very newfor Disney to go fast because we are a massive
Corporation, right? These companies tend tonot move very fast, because of process and
(25:10):
organisation. We had to be. So that was quiteexciting for us. And maybe also the most exciting
for the team here in China has been the establishmentof our own identity, our own culture. Because
remember that the 12,000 people that startedthis business in 2016… 11,000 of them had
no idea of what Disney was, maybe three monthsbefore we opened. So it is also a very massive
(25:36):
work when it comes to human resources, forexample, and culture, and communication, engagement
on how you prepare people, not on the technicalside, anybody can learn the technicality of
some food process or merchandise, it is aboutour culture, what we are, how we want to be,
(25:57):
how we want to be perceived, what we wantto give to families. And that was, I guess,
the biggest satisfaction for all of us. It’sto see how great the cast members had been
from day one, knowing where they were justa few weeks prior to their arrival.
And I happen to know that by the time that this recording will come out, you will
have left Shanghai and you'll be moving onto another thing. So what do you expect to
(26:18):
happen in the future?PG: Well, yes, I will be moving to another
part of Asia, Japan. I lived in Japan a longtime ago, 20 years ago already. Still with
the Walt Disney Company, I will be headinga very mature business there, The Tokyo Disney
Resort, which is two parks and a fantastic,success for now 35 years. And I will also
(26:42):
be engaging in running some of our globallicence businesses, out of Japan, but a more
global function. So it's a new challenge.I will have been here in Shanghai for five
years. As you said, before the opening, waybefore, to get the project ready, and open
it on time, and successfully run the operationfor a couple of years, more than that. So
(27:07):
it was part of my path, and part of my journey,and its the next step. I'm excited about that.
I'm excited to go back to Japan. And I'm lookingforward to this new page.
Well, when I launch Mosaic of Japan, I'll come and interview you again then.
PG (27:22):
Pleasure. Yes. OF
on is, who actually is the audience then,here in Shanghai Disneyland? Are they mainly
local Shanghai, people? Are they from otherparts of China? How many foreigners actually
come here?PG: It's Disney for China. So 98% of the people
coming to Shanghai Disney Resort are Chinese.The majority of them, no not majority, but
(27:46):
maybe 40 to 45%, are Shanghainese. But wehave been actually quite nicely surprised
by the numbers of people visiting from otherparts of the country. But it's mainly China
and Chinese guests coming to our park.OF: And that's what I guess the model is,
because you build it in a place where thereis a large catchment of middle class people
(28:07):
with a certain spending power. It makes methink, where will Disneyland open another
resort in the next few years? I can't seeone happening myself.
Well, time will tell. I can't answer that question, actually. But you know, Disney will
be there. There many people asking for theability to have a physical connection with
the Disney brand. So it can take many formsand many shapes. We will see.
OF (28:32):
Very good. Well, thank you so much for that, Philippe. And let's move on to Part
2.
[Part 2]OF: So Part 2, I'll ask you 10 questions,
and you can answer them either quickly, oryou can give me a little story. So number
one, what is your favourite China relatedfact?
PG (28:46):
I would say maybe one thing that has always been fascinating to me. So this is such a
big country, vast geography, and one timezone.OF: Right.
And so it has been something quite fascinating for me. Don't ask me why, but that's something.
OF (29:05):
I think what I read was that they wanted it to help unify the country from all the
way in Xinjiang to all the way east in…PG: Right, right. I get that. It still interests
me. When you wake up in Tibet, and it’sthe same time as Shanghai.
Exactly. Great. Number two, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
PG (29:27):
Well, I have two. One is… forgive my accent. I know you’re gonna look at me and
say “what is he saying?”… 周末愉快[zhōumò yúkuài], have a good weekend.
It was actually the first words I learnedin Chinese. And I was known for saying 周末愉快.
I was very active in Chinese on Fridays, typically,that was what I could use. The other one,
(29:50):
has been coming later, is 好久不见 [hǎojiǔbùjiàn], long time no see. Just because
it’s good to reunite with friends and peopleyou haven't met for a long time. So I like
this sentence. I like the way it sounds.OF: I love it. What is your favourite destination
within China?PG: Well, that's interesting. I think one
(30:12):
of the most memorable trips I have made inChina is Tibet. 18 months ago, I had the chance
with a few friends to go to Lhasa and justtravel in Tibet. And it's been a fascinating
experience. At many levels (30:27):
cultural, religious, geographic. You know, arriving and landing
in a place that is about 4600 metres is quitean experience in itself. It’s a beautiful
place.OF: Did you arrive by train or by plane
PG (30:43):
By plane, flew from Shanghai to Xian, from Xian to Lhasa. So, it's a shock, right?
As you arrive, some of my friends were shockedimmediately. It took me a little bit more
time. But it was fascinating, the place isbeautiful, and understanding how people leave
(31:04):
their religion, live Buddhism. I'm not anexpert in Buddhism, but I have been very impressed
by how connected they are all the time totheir practice and their philosophy
OF (31:17):
Great, thank you. This is a pertinent question, if you left China what would you
miss the most and what would you miss theleast?
PG (31:24):
Miss the least, easy
about Shanghai and say "oh my god, look atthe air quality”, having an app and checking
in every day was… at one point I gave up.But I won't miss that. What I will miss the
most (31:43):
the people. I found the people, especially in Shanghai which is where I lived, very close
to my culture. European, Latin, loud-speaking,saying but they think, very direct. I love
that. I remember walking in the street, maybea couple of days after I arrived, and I passed
by a truck driver, a delivery guy, who wastalking to the guy in the shop. And they were
(32:05):
screaming at each other. And I thought theywere gonna fight. Actually no, they ended
up laughing. I had no idea what they weretalking about. But I will miss that, I will
miss the people.OF: Especially in Japan where people are very,
very polite.PG: Haha, I won't get that.
OF (32:19):
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
PG (32:22):
No, nothing mystifies me I'm a very open person. So no. Something that surprises me
is that people keep offering me hot water,not telling me, so I keep being surprised
by hot water coming in. I'm always expectingthe tea bag to come. But that’s pretty much
that.OF: What’s your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?PG: There's many. When you live in Shanghai,
(32:45):
I have to say you're spoiled about that. Irecently discovered a very good Cantonese
restaurant in a hotel called Edition Hotel,it’s right off The Bund, called Canton Disco.
If you have not been there, I recommend youtry it. It’s great food, great environment,
I love this place. I have many hangouts, placeswhere I go to. I live here in the centre,
(33:07):
so there’s some Mexican food that I love,and many of my friends like to hang out there.
but this one I recommend to try.OF: Great. What's the best or worst purchase
you made in China?PG: I don’t have a worst purchase because
sometimes what you buy is… what it is. Butthe best purchase I made is, a little more
(33:28):
than a year ago, I bought a scooter. A Niuscooter. I don't want to make an advertisement,
but this is amazingly wonderful. It changedmy life in Shanghai on the weekends, the freedom
that you have to get on it and just go aroundthe French concession or explore the place.
I've been biking a lot before that. This isjust great, and I love my bike. I'm going
(33:49):
to miss it when I leave.OF: This is interesting because I was tempted
to do a scooter and then I got into the wholeMobike thing, but you're you're saying I'm
missing out?PG: Definitely. For me, yes definitely. Especially
for me and Mobike, I tend to pick the wrongones.
OF (34:04):
With obvious results. PG
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? PG
is a little baby chicken that looks very grumpyand has a cigarette in his mouth. And that’s
the way I look and I sound, I think, on Mondays.So typically I send that to anybody who's
(34:26):
talking to me on Mondays, that's the faceI make because it represents my mood. Really
my mood. Another one I have… a nicknamefor my wife is baby pig, and I have a little
baby pig as a sticker that I use sometimes.It’s done in a very nice way.
Of course, well you've just sent me them they look pretty fun so I will post them on
our social media. And what's your go-to songto sing at KTV?
PG (34:50):
I would not.. I cannot do anything but think about Beauty and the Beast. I've been
very involved in the new Broadway show thatwe have here, Shanghai Disney Resort, Beauty
and the Beast. And I have spent so much timeboth in New York and here with the team working
on that so it sticks to my mind that rightnow, I would say. Beauty and the Beast.
OF (35:10):
Great. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?PG: Well, I tend to rely on many media sources,
not just China, to check on news and stuff.On my phone, I use Xinhua News. That's the
one I use the most. And I'm happy with that.OF: Well, thank you so much, Philippe, I really
(35:30):
appreciate you coming in. And the last questionI ask everyone, which will include you is…
Who, out of everyone you know in China, wouldyou recommend that I interview next?
PG (35:39):
So I'm thinking about a colleague of mine that has been working in China for now more
than 20 years. His name is Murray King, he’sthe head of Public Affairs for Shanghai Disney
Resort. A diplomat by trade for Canada, arrivedin China through Beijing and the Canadian
embassy, moved off the public service to business,and moved to Shanghai maybe 18 years ago.
(36:05):
He is, I think, a beautiful example of somebodywho's a blend of Western and Chinese culture.
He understands the culture, speaks the language,embraces it. He’s extremely knowledgeable
about anything China-related, very curious.So I think he would be a great man to talk
(36:25):
to.OF: Sounds great Philippe, I look forward
to interviewing him. And thanks once againfor coming.
Thank you very much for having me.
[Outro]OF: Well, thanks again to Philippe for coming
to my home to record this one with me. Itwas a Saturday morning, since it was the one
time I could grab him actually for an hour.And then he was off again, on the scooter
he mentioned. Unfortunately, I totally forgotto grab a photo with him. So that's a shame.
(36:49):
But for all the other images, please go to@mosaicofchina_ on Instagram and @mosaicofchina
on Facebook. And there's also a WeChat group,so send me a note, and I'll add you there
if you like. And on these platforms, you cansee all the other images such as Philippe's
object, which was that photo of Mickey Mouseon the Great Wall; his two favourite WeChat
stickers (37:09):
one was the angry chicken and the other was the baby pig; and lots of other
goodies as well. One of these goodies actuallywas an interesting graphic I found on Wikipedia,
which shows how China was split into fivetime zones, before it was made all into one
time zone in 1949. So yeah, one for the geeksout there. I don't have any corrections from
(37:33):
this chat, other than to say that at one pointwe mentioned the French Concession, which
is a common slip, we of course meant to saythe Former French concession. It came to an
end in 1943, so definitely “former”. Andjust in case it wasn't clear with Philippe's
two favourite phrases in Chinese, so 周末快乐means happy weekend. And 好久不见 means
long time no see. And finally, yes, drinkingwarm or hot water is definitely a thing in
(37:58):
China, and elsewhere in Asia too of course.According to Chinese medicine and the internet,
drinking a glass of warm water helps the digestivesystem and supposedly aids blood flow. On
the other hand, cold water slows down organfunctions and causes muscles to contract.
Well so there you have it then. And that wasit the first episode I hope you enjoyed it.
(38:21):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; graphicsdesigned by Denny Newell; editing by Milo
de Prieto. And if you like us, please rateand comment on iTunes, or wherever you download
this podcast. Thanks for listening and seeyou next time.
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