January 20, 2020 • 25 mins
Stephane de Montgros first came to China as an engineering graduate, and today is the Director of an events and hospitality company. In our conversation, we trace this circuitous career path, and make observations about the current state of the hospitality and tourism industry in China and beyond. If you’re curious to know about how hotels in China are coping with societal, environmental, and technological changes, then this conversation should be a great starting point. Apart from these industry observations, Stephane also shares his practical attitude towards entrepreneurialism in China, and his positivity and enthusiasm is truly infectious. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:46 - Part 1 15:20 - Part 2 22:36 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
[Trailer]SDM: I do enjoy that storytelling around the
world, that China is up and coming and thatthey will be number one by 2030. The truth
is they are already number one, but they don'twant people to know.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:23):
Well, I survived my cold. And as a bonus,I survived the expired drugs that I'd been
taking. So we're back for another week. Thanksvery much to everyone who commented on last
week's show with the jewellery designer, AngieWu. And I need to give a special shout out
to my dad, who has an engineering backgroundand is apparently just as in love with tools
as Angie is. To the extent that the WeChatgroup woke up one morning to a stream of photos
(00:46):
that he posted there from London, featuringhis callipers, his micrometer, and a slide
rule. You see, you're just missing out ifyou're not on the listeners group on WeChat,
you can join by first connecting with me onmy Wechat ID: oscar1877, and I'll add you
to the group there. Otherwise, please searchfor @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram and @mosaicofchina
on Facebook.
And speaking of people with engineering backgrounds,we have another one in this week's episode,
(01:10):
Stephane de Montgros. You'll hear about howhe shifted away from engineering to events,
and later to hotels. And in so doing, we covera lot of ground on what's happening in the
hospitality industry in China and around theworld. I think there's only one word we say
in Chinese that isn't explained. That's whenStephane says 随便 [suíbiàn]. If you're
随便 [suíbiàn] about something, it justmeans that you're casual about it. And this
(01:33):
is another recording that went a little bitwrong in the studio, there was a problem with
the differential between our two mics. Atsome points it sounds like my voice has been
looped in afterwards, but I promise everythingwas recorded at the same time.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Stephane de Montgros. Stephane
is the co-founder of Riviera Events here inShanghai.
SDM (01:53):
Hi Oscar. OF
events company, of course. But before we do,the first question I'll ask you, like I ask
every guest on this podcast is, what is theobject that you brought in today?
I brought you something, and it was actually a bit of a challenge for me to find something
to bring you. The reason is that my passionis people. People, experiences, memories,
(02:13):
all that kind of stuff. So I actually tryto not attach myself to too many objects.
So it really took me a long time before Icould figure out what I would bring for this
interview. And then what happened is, a fewweeks ago, I went back to my hometown in the
south of France. And I decided to go and cleanmy childhood room. And I came on to find this
(02:37):
little object that my dad gave me when I wasaround 10. And my dad was working for HP,
the computer company. And he was either travellingto the west side of the US, Palo Alto, or
to Asia. And back in the late 80s, there werea lot of suppliers in the IT business that
were based in Singapore, based in Taiwan.So he brought me that little thing that gives
(03:01):
you the time all around the world. So it'ssomething that your iPhone can do very easily.
But back in the day, you had that little digitaldevice that would do that for you. And I think
it was a bit of a subtle introduction to thefact that the world was flat, and a great
(03:21):
way to dream as a young boy about exploringall these different time zones.
OF (03:27):
I would have loved that as a 10-year-old. So how did this then lead to you coming to
China? What was your China story?SDM: So I’ll keep it very, very short. By
training. I'm an engineer. And I did engineeringbecause I was not too bad in math and physics.
And it's a good foundation for whatever youwant to do in the future. When I was in my
early 20s, I wanted to be an entrepreneur.But I also knew I was not strong enough to
(03:52):
be starting something right away. And so Icame to China because I got my first job opportunity
in the automotive industry. And I thoughtthat it was good to work in a very competitive,
very tough industry. So my first job was actuallyto sell car parts to all the car makers all
(04:14):
over the country. It was a fantastic introductionto the Chinese culture, the Chinese language.
So I was travelling to 天津 [Tiānjīn]and Beijing to meet with the manufacturers
there. BMW was in 沈阳 [Shěnyáng] forinstance, you had the Japanese in 广东 [Guǎngdōng].
You had the French obviously in 武汉 withCitroën. And the Americans, Ford was in 重庆
(04:35):
[Chóngqìng], GM and obviously Volkswagenwere here in Shanghai. So it was a beautiful
learning experience. The reason I chose Chinafor my first job is that I went to a pretty
good school actually, and I could see aheadof myself very straight line working for a
top-40 large French company. And at the endof that line, I could see the cemetery. I
(04:59):
was like "Oh my god, that sounds too boring”.So I simply wanted to shuffle the cards. I
didn't want to make it too simple for myself.And I wanted to make sure I would experience
something a little bit out of the ordinary.So I actually look for a job in Brazil, I
looked into the east of Europe, and China.And I happen to be in China for the first
(05:22):
time for a very short Chinese class at 交通大学[Jiāotōng dàxué] in 2000. So, my résumé
already had a little bit of China writtenon it. So that helped me to find this first
job in China.OF: OK, and then from the automotive industry,
you're now in events.SDM: So what happened is, back in 2005, there
was not much to do on the weekends in Shanghai,especially during the summertime when the
(05:44):
weather is nice. So I met a very nice guy,also French, Benoît, who became my business
partner, Benoît Thebaut. And we had the sameidea at the same time, which was to organise
pool parties on the weekends. Very simple.We wanted to gather people, have great music,
have quality drinks, and have a good time.The nice thing with Benoît, my business partner,
(06:08):
is that he's very street-smart. I'm more ofthe book-smart type of guy. So we’re extremely
different, but we have the same taste, welike the same type of music, we like the same
type of dancing, and the same way of havingfun. So it was actually a great partnership.
And what was really cool at that time is thatthe Chinese were just starting to drink champagne.
So the main brands from France had budgetsto spend on building the brands for these
(06:37):
beverages. But they had nowhere to spend it,because there was no bars that were really
serving champagne. So quite fast, we actuallymanaged to secure very cool budgets. And we
were just the right people with the rightidea at the right time. And we made it work.
From the pool parties in 2007, we decidedto resign from our current day jobs and we
went full time with the agency. And then nightclubsstarted to hire us as promoters. When I look
(07:04):
back, what shocks me today is we used to doparties for nightclubs on Wednesday nights.
And we used to pack these places with overa thousand people. And now when I come to
the Wednesday of the week, the last thingI want to do is to party until four in the
morning, because I know I have to deliveron Thursday and on Friday. And that's why
(07:25):
quite fast, we were like “OK, this is alot of fun, but we're never going to make
it a sustainable business doing this”. Sothe opportunity we've had, and we're very
fortunate, is to start working for the hotelindustry. We did our first event for Sofitel
in 2008 in Beijing, and since then, RivieraEvents is the leading agency supporting the
(07:47):
hotel industry, putting together what we call‘offline activations’, which is just a
fancy name for ‘events’. And it doesn'tstop. So we have seven offices now all over
the country. And we've just started to developbusiness as well in Southeast Asia.
Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that, as somebody living in China who doesn't have
(08:07):
any link to the hospitality industry, evenI can tell that hotels have been growing exponentially.
SDM (08:12):
Yes. And what is very interesting, I'm just back from a conference in New York, and
we had the CEO of Marriott Hotels, Hyatt,Hilton, etc. And they were all together on
stage for 60 minutes talking about varioussubjects. The first 30 minutes were spent
discussing China. So it just shows how importantthis market is. And some other key facts from
(08:36):
there that I thought were quite interestingis that the travel industry is the largest
industry worldwide, it’s 10% of the worldwideGDP. And it's also the largest employer. So
over 300 million jobs are in travel. And theother fact that I like a lot is that the travel
industry is one of the best roads to the middleclass. So you can, in any country, start as
(08:59):
an immigrant with a very simple job cleaningthe dishes in the back. And if you have a
bit of luck, if you're in the right place,if you work hard, you can be in management
by the time you're in your mid 30s, and putyour kids to school, and have a have a roof
over your head. I think one of the subjectat the moments which I find very interesting
(09:21):
is that trend that's coming from Sweden, the‘flying shame’, the shame of taking the
plane. The travel industry, obviously is largelydependent on the airlines and on flying. And
there's a new number that came out but 2%of the pollution worldwide is generated by
the planes, and it's only 3% of the populationthat are generating 2% of the pollution. So
(09:43):
the ratio is not good. And when you look atthe numbers in China, it's insane. Each airport
is building a second or third landing track,and the numbers are crazy. So for China to
manage its growth, but to do it in a way whichis somewhat environmentally friendly, it's
(10:04):
a massive subject. But I also believe, surprisingly,that they are very aware of that matter. A
few weeks ago we were in Singapore, and wehad interviews with most of the leadership
of the travel industry in Asia. And one particulargentleman is the GM of the JW Marriott Hotel
in New Delhi. And if you've been to New Delhi,you do know that the environment is a challenge,
(10:29):
the amount of dust is insane. Well, that hotelhas committed - and they are not the only
one - to be plastic-free by the end of theyear, which I thought for India and for New
Delhi was amazing. China is trying to do thesame thing. And to put things in perspective,
when I was at that conference in New Yorktwo weeks ago, over 48 hours of talks about
(10:52):
everything in anything, no one did talk aboutthe environment. So surprisingly, I do believe
we are more advanced on this side of the worldthan quite a few countries in the West.
OF (11:05):
Interesting. And if the idea is to reduce the number of flights, then is the building
of the high speed rail network another ideathat China is putting into play?
SDM (11:13):
Yes. So they've done a fantastic job with the infrastructure, and the train is
definitely a great option. So I think I wouldinvite everyone, when it makes sense for you,
to consider travelling with the train, ratherthan the planes within the country.
OF (11:28):
And then you touched upon how passionate you are about the hotel industry here in China.
What is it that keeps you motivated in thisarea?
SDM (11:35):
I’ve always said that in Asia, Shanghai is the best place for nightlife. So we have
many nationalities here. So the Americansbrought with they are the best at, the Europeans
did as well, the Japanese obviously, and theSoutheast of Asia. So we're very lucky that
Shanghai - the ‘Paris of the East’, asthey used to say - has such a vibrant food
(11:58):
and beverage scene. A lot of younger peoplecome to me and I say “Oh, you're so lucky,
you were here at the right time”. And Iwant to share with them that I used to think
the exact same thing. In 2005. I was thinking“Gosh, these guys that came in 1995, they
bought an apartment already, and now theyhave a very senior career. And I'm just too
late”. And I think, and I strongly believe,that there's another solid 20 years - and
(12:25):
it could be more - of growth in this country.So my biggest advice is OK, find your passion,
find what it is you like, and work hard. Itwon't be easy, but you'll be able to make
your own space. The big subject at the momentis tech, tech, tech. Technology. Right now,
(12:46):
we're really at the centre of this thoughtprocess of how much human interactions do
we need to keep in the hotel industry to makethe experience for the hotel guests an enjoyable
one. What I love is that, especially in Asia- because we are the centre of tech developments
- we’re able to experiment with a lot ofdifferent things. And I think generally speaking
(13:10):
China and Asia is very playful with new things.They're not worried about trial and error.
It's an approach they've mastered. And I thinkit makes us in the right place to actually
think and understand where the industry isgoing to go in the next 20 years.
OF (13:29):
Just taking a step back and just thinking about you in terms of your personal life…
You’re someone who has seen it all, youknow, you've led amazing events. So for you,
that's an everyday thing. So what is it thatactually makes you wake up in the morning
and go “Yes, this is what I want to achievetoday.”
SDM (13:41):
So the first thing that I would do in the morning - and it's really happening every
morning - is to go out for a run. And thatrunning time is key for me to sweat out the
frustrations I've been having the day before,and maybe that kept my brain working during
the night. I’m one of these guys that loveto start my day early - the earlier is better
(14:04):
- and it's always a nice feeling to feel thatyou have an edge on the world, especially
when you wake up on the east, on this side.And you are 12 hours ahead of New York already,
by just the fact that you are waking up atseven in the morning. So running has been
really a key for me to keep sane and to keepfocus on what needs to be done, and what are
(14:26):
the interesting challenges that we shouldtackle.
OF (14:28):
Yes, you see, you're making me feel bad, because I used to run a lot. And now in Shanghai
I've put on weight because I don't run. Ifind the streets are not easy for runners.
They're always either too small, or they'retoo packed and then you're forced to run on
the road, or the pollution could be bad oneday, or it's too hot, or it's too rainy, or
whatever excuse I'm putting out. So what wouldyou tell people like me who are using Shanghai
(14:49):
as an excuse not to do enough exercise?SDM: When you go to the south part of 浦西
[Pǔxī] and you go by the river, on the 黄埔[Huángpù], they have beautiful running tracks.
So not only are there no cars, there's a lotof trees; you're running by the water, which
is a very agreeable thing to do; and the compoundis very very soft on your knees. So take the
(15:11):
subway and get to the river.OF: That sounds perfect. Well, thank you so
much. And we're going to go on to the secondpart of the interview.
SDM (15:19):
OK
[Part 2]OF: So Question 1, what is your favourite
China-related fact?SDM: So I think the one thing we need to be
aware of is that China is the number one economyin the world today. I do enjoy that storytelling
around the world that China is up and comingand that they will be number one by 2030.
(15:40):
The truth is, they are already number one,but they don't want people to know. I think
they understand that being number one is alsoa burden. Because once you’re number one,
you have a lot of responsibility. So I thinkthe Chinese are extremely smart in trying
to keep that brand of like “We are a developingcountry, we are getting there, give us a bit
(16:02):
of time”, where actually they are alreadyextremely strong.
OF (16:05):
Well, you heard it here first. Number 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase
in Chinese?SDM: So had you asked me 10 years ago, I would
have told you easily 没有问题 [méiyǒuwèntí]. And I think that's changing. I think
ten years ago, there's never something thatcannot be done. If you need to build a building
(16:26):
overnight, it's just a matter of adding morepeople to get things done. And being from
the south of Europe, it’s something we sharewith the Chinese. I think the Italians, the
Spanish and the French are also very goodat figuring things out, sometime at the very
last minute. That's said - again, it goesback to my first answer - I think things are
changing. And I think China is becoming avery developed economy, in that now you have
(16:50):
to do things the proper way. So it's a veryinteresting thing and a very dynamic environment.
I think in the history books, you'll havethe China from 1978 and the opening to 2012,
which was a bit 随便 [suíbiàn], like “OK,let's let's move forward and get things done”.
And since 2012, I really feel that thingsare getting very much structured. And we are
(17:14):
evolving into a different environment. SoI'm quite happy that I was able to experience,
in my professional life, that shift that happenedin 2012.
So then, if it would have been ‘没有问题 [méiyǒu wèntí]’ which is ‘no problem’,
is your favourite phrase now ‘有很多问题[yǒu hěnduō wèntí]’?
SDM (17:30):
‘有很多问题 [Yǒu hěnduō wèntí]’… I wouldn't say that. Obviously, there's always
ways to get things done. But you have to playby the books.
OF (17:37):
Very good. So if you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you
miss the least?SDM: So I think every time I go away from
China for more than three weeks, what I missis the fast pace. And I do miss it when I
get away. The one thing that I do not misswhen I leave is the fact that the pollution
and the environment is still a bit of a struggle.But again, on the bright side, I think that
(18:01):
the government is deeply aware. So somethingthat I do not miss, but also something that
I hope we would not talk about if you wereto interview me in five or ten years.
Well said. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SDM (18:15):
The fast pace. I've been here close to twenty years, and it has not slowed down a
second. Just take the Shanghai subway. Everysummer there's a new line, and in the democracies
in the West it takes twenty years to agreeon a new track, where things get done here.
These guys are insane. So I love it, and atthe same time it blows me away, every time
(18:41):
I come back.OF: Where's your favourite place to go, to
eat, to drink, or hang out in general?SDM: I like to give a shout to Shake. Shake
is by far my favourite live music venue inAsia. They’re on 茂名 [Màomíng] Road.
Beautiful place for dinner, drinks, and somedancing. And trust me, I've been to quite
(19:04):
a lot. So go to shake. Fantastic. And again,my favourite all over Asia.
OF (19:10):
What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
SDM (19:14):
I couldn't really think about anything when you asked me that question, simply because
I think I'm a people person. So you couldhave asked me “OK, what are the best and
the worst relationships that you formed here?”But I can't really comment on objects because
he's not really who I am.OF: OK, I guess we'll take that as an answer
(19:35):
this time. As long as the worst person you’vemet is not me.
Very funny. OF
And you can send it to me right now.SDM: Let me send it to you. So a friend of
mine actually recorded a short video of abuddy of mine and myself outside of a restaurant
in Taipei. And I'm just doing some silly dancingin front of the restaurant. So I just think
(19:55):
it's funny because there's myself in thereand I have no idea how you get that kind of
stuff done. That why its amazing to work withall these millennials, they teach you all
that kind of stuff.OF: Right. And in what situation would you
send this sticker?SDM: When I'm happy, which happens every half
an hour.OF: Ah beautiful. And sickening at the same
time. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?SDM: I think the one song that I vaguely remember,
(20:20):
is 对面的女孩看过来 ([Duìmiàn denǚhái kàn guòláii]. It brings me back
to my first time in Asia, which was in 2000.So I was doing Chinese over the summer, and
then I did an internship in Singapore. Andthat song had just been released that summer.
So it just brings me back to that kind oflike, being a baby, not understanding anything,
(20:42):
trying to make sense of what was around me.And obviously, I think the more you move forward,
the more you know that you don't know anything.OF: Interesting. And does it still link you
to people who remember it being released backin the day?
I think so. I think so, I think that people in their mid 20s around 2000 remember
that song in China.OF: And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
(21:04):
So I've heard of that guy, Oscar, who was putting together a series of podcasts,
and go and check him out. I think the otherone will be the South China Morning Post.
So a great newspaper coming out of Hong Kong,and I think they have a very interesting take
on things. And they’re obviously very closeto the action. So that's something that I
(21:26):
checked on a daily basis.OF: Great. And for somebody who used to live
in Hong Kong, I appreciate that choice. Ido not appreciate you saying that I am a source
of information. Now I've got expectationsto fill, you see? Well, thank you so much,
Stephane, I really enjoyed that. I think whenI have people who are visiting, and they have
this one impression of what China is, andthen they come and what they find out is so
much different… I think a lot of it comesdown to the people they interact with in the
(21:48):
service industry. So I think they are thewindow into what a lot of people actually
experience in China.SDM: Yeah, very well said. And that's one
of the main interests of that line, is thatwe are ambassadors to the destination. So
very well put.OF: Well, that leaves me with just one question,
which is the same question I ask everyone.If I was to interview anyone who you know
(22:11):
in China, who should I interview next?SDM: I think you should interview Vladimir
Djurovic. He is the founder of a great brandconsulting company called LABBRAND. And you're
gonna have a blast meeting him. He is extremelyinsightful, and I can't wait to hear the answers
to the questions you're gonna ask.OF: Well, thank you so much Stephane.
(22:34):
Thank you. Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: Well, that was Stephane, one of those
people who exudes positivity whenever I'vemet him. So believe me, he wasn't faking it
in our recording, which only intensifies myown personal self-loathing and cynicism. So
thanks Stephane for making me - and otherslike me - look bad. That's great.
(22:54):
In the spirit of cynicism, I've actually beenhearing reports that the hotel industry in
some areas of China hasn't been doing as wellin 2019 as in previous years, especially in
places like Shanghai where there's almostan over-saturation of great venues. But it
appears to be rebounding in 2020, so I'm surethat will make the likes of Stephane happy.
His answer to the question ‘what would youmiss if you left Shanghai’ was ‘the fast
(23:16):
pace’. So I just wanted to give a call backto Eric Olander, the journalist from Episode
03 of the series, who gave the exact sameanswer to this question. I was doing a quick
look at the download stats for the podcastin 2019, and Eric's episode remains one of
the most popular of the season. So if youhaven't yet listened to it, it's definitely
one to check out.
A quick word about the images that I postedthis week on social media. There's Stephgane
(23:39):
and his object, that little electronic timeconverter from the 80s. I lied when I said
that Oscar the child would have loved thatobject, Oscar the adult in his 40s loves this
object too. It has a map, it has flags, andyeah, I want it. There's also Stephane's favourite
WeChat sticker, the DIY one which is colleaguemade, featuring him and a friend. And there
(23:59):
are lots of other bits and bobs there too.Some photos from Stephane's pool party and
club promotion days, some graphs with statisticsabout the travel industry, and so on.
We're having another week off next week, forChinese New Year. Anyone who's lived in this
part of the world will know the weird periodbetween New Year and Chinese New Year. It's
always a very stop/start/stop/start to theyear. For anyone out there who doesn't know,
(24:23):
the Mandarin for Chinese New Year is 春节[Chūnjié], which simply translates as ‘Spring
Festival'. And having lived in Asia for 16of the last 20 years. I must say that this
is one of those things where I think the Eastmakes more sense than what we do in the West.
Most companies and schools start their yearin the spring. And why not? You know, spring
is all about renewal and rebirth. There'ssomething a little bizarre about celebrating
(24:45):
the new year on January 1st in the depthsof the winter in the Northern Hemisphere.
But then I suppose with climate change, maybespring will end up coming on January 1st,
so it'll all wash out in the end. There yougo, maybe that's something we can debate about
in the WeChat group this week. Anything toprevent my father sending more photos of his
toolbox.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
(25:07):
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.In lieu of an episode next week, I'll be posting
a surprise extra video, so please don't missthat on social media. In the meantime, 新年快乐
[xīnnián kuàilè] and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐfācái], and we'll be back again after the
short break.
[Trailer]SDM: I do enjoy that storytelling around the
world, that China is up and coming and thatthey will be number one by 2030. The truth
is they are already number one, but they don'twant people to know.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:23):
Well, I survived my cold. And as a bonus,I survived the expired drugs that I'd been
taking. So we're back for another week. Thanksvery much to everyone who commented on last
week's show with the jewellery designer, AngieWu. And I need to give a special shout out
to my dad, who has an engineering backgroundand is apparently just as in love with tools
as Angie is. To the extent that the WeChatgroup woke up one morning to a stream of photos
(00:46):
that he posted there from London, featuringhis callipers, his micrometer, and a slide
rule. You see, you're just missing out ifyou're not on the listeners group on WeChat,
you can join by first connecting with me onmy Wechat ID: oscar1877, and I'll add you
to the group there. Otherwise, please searchfor @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram and @mosaicofchina
on Facebook.
And speaking of people with engineering backgrounds,we have another one in this week's episode,
(01:10):
Stephane de Montgros. You'll hear about howhe shifted away from engineering to events,
and later to hotels. And in so doing, we covera lot of ground on what's happening in the
hospitality industry in China and around theworld. I think there's only one word we say
in Chinese that isn't explained. That's whenStephane says 随便 [suíbiàn]. If you're
随便 [suíbiàn] about something, it justmeans that you're casual about it. And this
(01:33):
is another recording that went a little bitwrong in the studio, there was a problem with
the differential between our two mics. Atsome points it sounds like my voice has been
looped in afterwards, but I promise everythingwas recorded at the same time.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Stephane de Montgros. Stephane
is the co-founder of Riviera Events here inShanghai.
SDM (01:53):
Hi Oscar. OF
events company, of course. But before we do,the first question I'll ask you, like I ask
every guest on this podcast is, what is theobject that you brought in today?
I brought you something, and it was actually a bit of a challenge for me to find something
to bring you. The reason is that my passionis people. People, experiences, memories,
(02:13):
all that kind of stuff. So I actually tryto not attach myself to too many objects.
So it really took me a long time before Icould figure out what I would bring for this
interview. And then what happened is, a fewweeks ago, I went back to my hometown in the
south of France. And I decided to go and cleanmy childhood room. And I came on to find this
(02:37):
little object that my dad gave me when I wasaround 10. And my dad was working for HP,
the computer company. And he was either travellingto the west side of the US, Palo Alto, or
to Asia. And back in the late 80s, there werea lot of suppliers in the IT business that
were based in Singapore, based in Taiwan.So he brought me that little thing that gives
(03:01):
you the time all around the world. So it'ssomething that your iPhone can do very easily.
But back in the day, you had that little digitaldevice that would do that for you. And I think
it was a bit of a subtle introduction to thefact that the world was flat, and a great
(03:21):
way to dream as a young boy about exploringall these different time zones.
OF (03:27):
I would have loved that as a 10-year-old. So how did this then lead to you coming to
China? What was your China story?SDM: So I’ll keep it very, very short. By
training. I'm an engineer. And I did engineeringbecause I was not too bad in math and physics.
And it's a good foundation for whatever youwant to do in the future. When I was in my
early 20s, I wanted to be an entrepreneur.But I also knew I was not strong enough to
(03:52):
be starting something right away. And so Icame to China because I got my first job opportunity
in the automotive industry. And I thoughtthat it was good to work in a very competitive,
very tough industry. So my first job was actuallyto sell car parts to all the car makers all
(04:14):
over the country. It was a fantastic introductionto the Chinese culture, the Chinese language.
So I was travelling to 天津 [Tiānjīn]and Beijing to meet with the manufacturers
there. BMW was in 沈阳 [Shěnyáng] forinstance, you had the Japanese in 广东 [Guǎngdōng].
You had the French obviously in 武汉 withCitroën. And the Americans, Ford was in 重庆
(04:35):
[Chóngqìng], GM and obviously Volkswagenwere here in Shanghai. So it was a beautiful
learning experience. The reason I chose Chinafor my first job is that I went to a pretty
good school actually, and I could see aheadof myself very straight line working for a
top-40 large French company. And at the endof that line, I could see the cemetery. I
(04:59):
was like "Oh my god, that sounds too boring”.So I simply wanted to shuffle the cards. I
didn't want to make it too simple for myself.And I wanted to make sure I would experience
something a little bit out of the ordinary.So I actually look for a job in Brazil, I
looked into the east of Europe, and China.And I happen to be in China for the first
(05:22):
time for a very short Chinese class at 交通大学[Jiāotōng dàxué] in 2000. So, my résumé
already had a little bit of China writtenon it. So that helped me to find this first
job in China.OF: OK, and then from the automotive industry,
you're now in events.SDM: So what happened is, back in 2005, there
was not much to do on the weekends in Shanghai,especially during the summertime when the
(05:44):
weather is nice. So I met a very nice guy,also French, Benoît, who became my business
partner, Benoît Thebaut. And we had the sameidea at the same time, which was to organise
pool parties on the weekends. Very simple.We wanted to gather people, have great music,
have quality drinks, and have a good time.The nice thing with Benoît, my business partner,
(06:08):
is that he's very street-smart. I'm more ofthe book-smart type of guy. So we’re extremely
different, but we have the same taste, welike the same type of music, we like the same
type of dancing, and the same way of havingfun. So it was actually a great partnership.
And what was really cool at that time is thatthe Chinese were just starting to drink champagne.
So the main brands from France had budgetsto spend on building the brands for these
(06:37):
beverages. But they had nowhere to spend it,because there was no bars that were really
serving champagne. So quite fast, we actuallymanaged to secure very cool budgets. And we
were just the right people with the rightidea at the right time. And we made it work.
From the pool parties in 2007, we decidedto resign from our current day jobs and we
went full time with the agency. And then nightclubsstarted to hire us as promoters. When I look
(07:04):
back, what shocks me today is we used to doparties for nightclubs on Wednesday nights.
And we used to pack these places with overa thousand people. And now when I come to
the Wednesday of the week, the last thingI want to do is to party until four in the
morning, because I know I have to deliveron Thursday and on Friday. And that's why
(07:25):
quite fast, we were like “OK, this is alot of fun, but we're never going to make
it a sustainable business doing this”. Sothe opportunity we've had, and we're very
fortunate, is to start working for the hotelindustry. We did our first event for Sofitel
in 2008 in Beijing, and since then, RivieraEvents is the leading agency supporting the
(07:47):
hotel industry, putting together what we call‘offline activations’, which is just a
fancy name for ‘events’. And it doesn'tstop. So we have seven offices now all over
the country. And we've just started to developbusiness as well in Southeast Asia.
Yeah, I mean, that's one thing that, as somebody living in China who doesn't have
(08:07):
any link to the hospitality industry, evenI can tell that hotels have been growing exponentially.
SDM (08:12):
Yes. And what is very interesting, I'm just back from a conference in New York, and
we had the CEO of Marriott Hotels, Hyatt,Hilton, etc. And they were all together on
stage for 60 minutes talking about varioussubjects. The first 30 minutes were spent
discussing China. So it just shows how importantthis market is. And some other key facts from
(08:36):
there that I thought were quite interestingis that the travel industry is the largest
industry worldwide, it’s 10% of the worldwideGDP. And it's also the largest employer. So
over 300 million jobs are in travel. And theother fact that I like a lot is that the travel
industry is one of the best roads to the middleclass. So you can, in any country, start as
(08:59):
an immigrant with a very simple job cleaningthe dishes in the back. And if you have a
bit of luck, if you're in the right place,if you work hard, you can be in management
by the time you're in your mid 30s, and putyour kids to school, and have a have a roof
over your head. I think one of the subjectat the moments which I find very interesting
(09:21):
is that trend that's coming from Sweden, the‘flying shame’, the shame of taking the
plane. The travel industry, obviously is largelydependent on the airlines and on flying. And
there's a new number that came out but 2%of the pollution worldwide is generated by
the planes, and it's only 3% of the populationthat are generating 2% of the pollution. So
(09:43):
the ratio is not good. And when you look atthe numbers in China, it's insane. Each airport
is building a second or third landing track,and the numbers are crazy. So for China to
manage its growth, but to do it in a way whichis somewhat environmentally friendly, it's
(10:04):
a massive subject. But I also believe, surprisingly,that they are very aware of that matter. A
few weeks ago we were in Singapore, and wehad interviews with most of the leadership
of the travel industry in Asia. And one particulargentleman is the GM of the JW Marriott Hotel
in New Delhi. And if you've been to New Delhi,you do know that the environment is a challenge,
(10:29):
the amount of dust is insane. Well, that hotelhas committed - and they are not the only
one - to be plastic-free by the end of theyear, which I thought for India and for New
Delhi was amazing. China is trying to do thesame thing. And to put things in perspective,
when I was at that conference in New Yorktwo weeks ago, over 48 hours of talks about
(10:52):
everything in anything, no one did talk aboutthe environment. So surprisingly, I do believe
we are more advanced on this side of the worldthan quite a few countries in the West.
OF (11:05):
Interesting. And if the idea is to reduce the number of flights, then is the building
of the high speed rail network another ideathat China is putting into play?
SDM (11:13):
Yes. So they've done a fantastic job with the infrastructure, and the train is
definitely a great option. So I think I wouldinvite everyone, when it makes sense for you,
to consider travelling with the train, ratherthan the planes within the country.
OF (11:28):
And then you touched upon how passionate you are about the hotel industry here in China.
What is it that keeps you motivated in thisarea?
SDM (11:35):
I’ve always said that in Asia, Shanghai is the best place for nightlife. So we have
many nationalities here. So the Americansbrought with they are the best at, the Europeans
did as well, the Japanese obviously, and theSoutheast of Asia. So we're very lucky that
Shanghai - the ‘Paris of the East’, asthey used to say - has such a vibrant food
(11:58):
and beverage scene. A lot of younger peoplecome to me and I say “Oh, you're so lucky,
you were here at the right time”. And Iwant to share with them that I used to think
the exact same thing. In 2005. I was thinking“Gosh, these guys that came in 1995, they
bought an apartment already, and now theyhave a very senior career. And I'm just too
late”. And I think, and I strongly believe,that there's another solid 20 years - and
(12:25):
it could be more - of growth in this country.So my biggest advice is OK, find your passion,
find what it is you like, and work hard. Itwon't be easy, but you'll be able to make
your own space. The big subject at the momentis tech, tech, tech. Technology. Right now,
(12:46):
we're really at the centre of this thoughtprocess of how much human interactions do
we need to keep in the hotel industry to makethe experience for the hotel guests an enjoyable
one. What I love is that, especially in Asia- because we are the centre of tech developments
- we’re able to experiment with a lot ofdifferent things. And I think generally speaking
(13:10):
China and Asia is very playful with new things.They're not worried about trial and error.
It's an approach they've mastered. And I thinkit makes us in the right place to actually
think and understand where the industry isgoing to go in the next 20 years.
OF (13:29):
Just taking a step back and just thinking about you in terms of your personal life…
You’re someone who has seen it all, youknow, you've led amazing events. So for you,
that's an everyday thing. So what is it thatactually makes you wake up in the morning
and go “Yes, this is what I want to achievetoday.”
SDM (13:41):
So the first thing that I would do in the morning - and it's really happening every
morning - is to go out for a run. And thatrunning time is key for me to sweat out the
frustrations I've been having the day before,and maybe that kept my brain working during
the night. I’m one of these guys that loveto start my day early - the earlier is better
(14:04):
- and it's always a nice feeling to feel thatyou have an edge on the world, especially
when you wake up on the east, on this side.And you are 12 hours ahead of New York already,
by just the fact that you are waking up atseven in the morning. So running has been
really a key for me to keep sane and to keepfocus on what needs to be done, and what are
(14:26):
the interesting challenges that we shouldtackle.
OF (14:28):
Yes, you see, you're making me feel bad, because I used to run a lot. And now in Shanghai
I've put on weight because I don't run. Ifind the streets are not easy for runners.
They're always either too small, or they'retoo packed and then you're forced to run on
the road, or the pollution could be bad oneday, or it's too hot, or it's too rainy, or
whatever excuse I'm putting out. So what wouldyou tell people like me who are using Shanghai
(14:49):
as an excuse not to do enough exercise?SDM: When you go to the south part of 浦西
[Pǔxī] and you go by the river, on the 黄埔[Huángpù], they have beautiful running tracks.
So not only are there no cars, there's a lotof trees; you're running by the water, which
is a very agreeable thing to do; and the compoundis very very soft on your knees. So take the
(15:11):
subway and get to the river.OF: That sounds perfect. Well, thank you so
much. And we're going to go on to the secondpart of the interview.
SDM (15:19):
OK
[Part 2]OF: So Question 1, what is your favourite
China-related fact?SDM: So I think the one thing we need to be
aware of is that China is the number one economyin the world today. I do enjoy that storytelling
around the world that China is up and comingand that they will be number one by 2030.
(15:40):
The truth is, they are already number one,but they don't want people to know. I think
they understand that being number one is alsoa burden. Because once you’re number one,
you have a lot of responsibility. So I thinkthe Chinese are extremely smart in trying
to keep that brand of like “We are a developingcountry, we are getting there, give us a bit
(16:02):
of time”, where actually they are alreadyextremely strong.
OF (16:05):
Well, you heard it here first. Number 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase
in Chinese?SDM: So had you asked me 10 years ago, I would
have told you easily 没有问题 [méiyǒuwèntí]. And I think that's changing. I think
ten years ago, there's never something thatcannot be done. If you need to build a building
(16:26):
overnight, it's just a matter of adding morepeople to get things done. And being from
the south of Europe, it’s something we sharewith the Chinese. I think the Italians, the
Spanish and the French are also very goodat figuring things out, sometime at the very
last minute. That's said - again, it goesback to my first answer - I think things are
changing. And I think China is becoming avery developed economy, in that now you have
(16:50):
to do things the proper way. So it's a veryinteresting thing and a very dynamic environment.
I think in the history books, you'll havethe China from 1978 and the opening to 2012,
which was a bit 随便 [suíbiàn], like “OK,let's let's move forward and get things done”.
And since 2012, I really feel that thingsare getting very much structured. And we are
(17:14):
evolving into a different environment. SoI'm quite happy that I was able to experience,
in my professional life, that shift that happenedin 2012.
So then, if it would have been ‘没有问题 [méiyǒu wèntí]’ which is ‘no problem’,
is your favourite phrase now ‘有很多问题[yǒu hěnduō wèntí]’?
SDM (17:30):
‘有很多问题 [Yǒu hěnduō wèntí]’… I wouldn't say that. Obviously, there's always
ways to get things done. But you have to playby the books.
OF (17:37):
Very good. So if you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you
miss the least?SDM: So I think every time I go away from
China for more than three weeks, what I missis the fast pace. And I do miss it when I
get away. The one thing that I do not misswhen I leave is the fact that the pollution
and the environment is still a bit of a struggle.But again, on the bright side, I think that
(18:01):
the government is deeply aware. So somethingthat I do not miss, but also something that
I hope we would not talk about if you wereto interview me in five or ten years.
Well said. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SDM (18:15):
The fast pace. I've been here close to twenty years, and it has not slowed down a
second. Just take the Shanghai subway. Everysummer there's a new line, and in the democracies
in the West it takes twenty years to agreeon a new track, where things get done here.
These guys are insane. So I love it, and atthe same time it blows me away, every time
(18:41):
I come back.OF: Where's your favourite place to go, to
eat, to drink, or hang out in general?SDM: I like to give a shout to Shake. Shake
is by far my favourite live music venue inAsia. They’re on 茂名 [Màomíng] Road.
Beautiful place for dinner, drinks, and somedancing. And trust me, I've been to quite
(19:04):
a lot. So go to shake. Fantastic. And again,my favourite all over Asia.
OF (19:10):
What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
SDM (19:14):
I couldn't really think about anything when you asked me that question, simply because
I think I'm a people person. So you couldhave asked me “OK, what are the best and
the worst relationships that you formed here?”But I can't really comment on objects because
he's not really who I am.OF: OK, I guess we'll take that as an answer
(19:35):
this time. As long as the worst person you’vemet is not me.
Very funny. OF
And you can send it to me right now.SDM: Let me send it to you. So a friend of
mine actually recorded a short video of abuddy of mine and myself outside of a restaurant
in Taipei. And I'm just doing some silly dancingin front of the restaurant. So I just think
(19:55):
it's funny because there's myself in thereand I have no idea how you get that kind of
stuff done. That why its amazing to work withall these millennials, they teach you all
that kind of stuff.OF: Right. And in what situation would you
send this sticker?SDM: When I'm happy, which happens every half
an hour.OF: Ah beautiful. And sickening at the same
time. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?SDM: I think the one song that I vaguely remember,
(20:20):
is 对面的女孩看过来 ([Duìmiàn denǚhái kàn guòláii]. It brings me back
to my first time in Asia, which was in 2000.So I was doing Chinese over the summer, and
then I did an internship in Singapore. Andthat song had just been released that summer.
So it just brings me back to that kind oflike, being a baby, not understanding anything,
(20:42):
trying to make sense of what was around me.And obviously, I think the more you move forward,
the more you know that you don't know anything.OF: Interesting. And does it still link you
to people who remember it being released backin the day?
I think so. I think so, I think that people in their mid 20s around 2000 remember
that song in China.OF: And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
(21:04):
So I've heard of that guy, Oscar, who was putting together a series of podcasts,
and go and check him out. I think the otherone will be the South China Morning Post.
So a great newspaper coming out of Hong Kong,and I think they have a very interesting take
on things. And they’re obviously very closeto the action. So that's something that I
(21:26):
checked on a daily basis.OF: Great. And for somebody who used to live
in Hong Kong, I appreciate that choice. Ido not appreciate you saying that I am a source
of information. Now I've got expectationsto fill, you see? Well, thank you so much,
Stephane, I really enjoyed that. I think whenI have people who are visiting, and they have
this one impression of what China is, andthen they come and what they find out is so
much different… I think a lot of it comesdown to the people they interact with in the
(21:48):
service industry. So I think they are thewindow into what a lot of people actually
experience in China.SDM: Yeah, very well said. And that's one
of the main interests of that line, is thatwe are ambassadors to the destination. So
very well put.OF: Well, that leaves me with just one question,
which is the same question I ask everyone.If I was to interview anyone who you know
(22:11):
in China, who should I interview next?SDM: I think you should interview Vladimir
Djurovic. He is the founder of a great brandconsulting company called LABBRAND. And you're
gonna have a blast meeting him. He is extremelyinsightful, and I can't wait to hear the answers
to the questions you're gonna ask.OF: Well, thank you so much Stephane.
(22:34):
Thank you. Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: Well, that was Stephane, one of those
people who exudes positivity whenever I'vemet him. So believe me, he wasn't faking it
in our recording, which only intensifies myown personal self-loathing and cynicism. So
thanks Stephane for making me - and otherslike me - look bad. That's great.
(22:54):
In the spirit of cynicism, I've actually beenhearing reports that the hotel industry in
some areas of China hasn't been doing as wellin 2019 as in previous years, especially in
places like Shanghai where there's almostan over-saturation of great venues. But it
appears to be rebounding in 2020, so I'm surethat will make the likes of Stephane happy.
His answer to the question ‘what would youmiss if you left Shanghai’ was ‘the fast
(23:16):
pace’. So I just wanted to give a call backto Eric Olander, the journalist from Episode
03 of the series, who gave the exact sameanswer to this question. I was doing a quick
look at the download stats for the podcastin 2019, and Eric's episode remains one of
the most popular of the season. So if youhaven't yet listened to it, it's definitely
one to check out.
A quick word about the images that I postedthis week on social media. There's Stephgane
(23:39):
and his object, that little electronic timeconverter from the 80s. I lied when I said
that Oscar the child would have loved thatobject, Oscar the adult in his 40s loves this
object too. It has a map, it has flags, andyeah, I want it. There's also Stephane's favourite
WeChat sticker, the DIY one which is colleaguemade, featuring him and a friend. And there
(23:59):
are lots of other bits and bobs there too.Some photos from Stephane's pool party and
club promotion days, some graphs with statisticsabout the travel industry, and so on.
We're having another week off next week, forChinese New Year. Anyone who's lived in this
part of the world will know the weird periodbetween New Year and Chinese New Year. It's
always a very stop/start/stop/start to theyear. For anyone out there who doesn't know,
(24:23):
the Mandarin for Chinese New Year is 春节[Chūnjié], which simply translates as ‘Spring
Festival'. And having lived in Asia for 16of the last 20 years. I must say that this
is one of those things where I think the Eastmakes more sense than what we do in the West.
Most companies and schools start their yearin the spring. And why not? You know, spring
is all about renewal and rebirth. There'ssomething a little bizarre about celebrating
(24:45):
the new year on January 1st in the depthsof the winter in the Northern Hemisphere.
But then I suppose with climate change, maybespring will end up coming on January 1st,
so it'll all wash out in the end. There yougo, maybe that's something we can debate about
in the WeChat group this week. Anything toprevent my father sending more photos of his
toolbox.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
(25:07):
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.In lieu of an episode next week, I'll be posting
a surprise extra video, so please don't missthat on social media. In the meantime, 新年快乐
[xīnnián kuàilè] and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐfācái], and we'll be back again after the
short break.
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