April 13, 2020 • 28 mins
The final episode of the season is with the fashion designer Octo Cheung, who epitomises the phrase “East Meets West”. Raised in Hong Kong, trained in Europe, and employed in China, Octo explains how her own cultural development has helped to inform her personal philosophy and design aesthetic. You will find her observations fascinating, no matter how much you care about fashion or clothing. The most intriguing part of Octo’s story is the mystery behind her ultra high-profile private client. Did we leave enough clues for you to guess who it is? Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:31 - Part 1 19:13 - Part 2 25:26 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]OC: We just only have
(00:04):
one chance. And this chance will be history.So that means your mistake will be history.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
So it's the final episode of the season, whichstarted way back in August of last year. That's
(00:30):
only eight months ago, but sometimes eight monthscan feel like a lifetime. And looking back today,
I can somehow see how this podcast has beenan exercise in describing the experiences
of East meeting West. Across these 30 episodes,we've been looking at aspects of life in China,
sometimes through an expert's lens, andother times more through an outsider's lens,
but on each occasion in a way thathelps an English-speaking audience
(00:52):
experience how one culture speaks toanother through its human stories.
Today's episode is with Octo Cheung, whois a Hong Kong born fashion designer based
in mainland China. Before this interview, Iwas wondering how Octo’s story would fit into
the East meets West fabric of the series.But as you'll hear, not only does it fit,
it ended up being one of the best examples.Octo’s experiences delicately weave together
(01:17):
the elements of culture and identity thatdefine her life and her work. And when you
hear about her special private client,you will recognise how fashion is yet
another language we can use to interpret thedialogue between China and the outside world.
[Part 1]OF: Well thanks so much for coming today, Octo.
OC (01:35):
Thank you. OF
have you. I'm here with Octo Cheung, and Octois a fashion designer and Co-founder of AirOgo.
Yeah. OF
you too much about it, because I can already seewhat your object is. So let me ask you the first
question, which is, what object did you bring?OC: So today I brought my company's innovative
(01:58):
product, which is an AirOgo “pilloon” jacket.“Pilloon”: this is a word that is a combination
of ‘balloon’ and ‘pillow’. So have you everthought about a jacket which has a travel
pillow insert in the collar?OF: OK, so you can hear Octo
(02:18):
unfurling her jacket right now.OC: Yeah. So Oscar can see the beautiful
jacket. You can see a pump. You blow it. And thenyou can sleep with the heat-generated mask. You
(02:40):
put your hood on, and you can sleep anywhereyou like. Even on the street, on the bench,
in the park, plane, train, or anywhere you want.OF: That's great. It's a mixture of a jacket and
basically a sleeping bag.OC: Yeah, yeah, it is.
OF (02:56):
Well, I'll definitely have to include an image or two on social media so people can
actually see what this looks like. it's quitehard to describe, I must say. So thank you so
much for bringing that in Octo, I guessthat leads me to ask you the most obvious
question which is, what is your background?OC: Actually, I studied in Hong Kong when I
(03:18):
was young. I start from 17 - something like that -fashion design. And after university, I went to a
brand called G2000, which mainly makes occasionalwear. Suits, suits and suits. And so actually
I feel very tired when I'm doing very ordinarydesign, so then I started to apply for an award
(03:46):
called the Hong Kong Young Design Talent Award.OF: ‘Young Design Talent Award’?
OC (03:49):
Yeah. OF
And this is a very difficult award, because it's architecture, graphics,
interior design, fashion design, industrialdesign, so many design fields, but just
only two people can get the scholarship ofHKD250k. So that's why… Luckily I got it,
(04:12):
in the end.OF: Wow.
Yeah. OF
Of course, my dream place
that, I promise.OC: Right, yeah.
OF (04:26):
And so you studied there. Where were you studying?
OC (04:28):
So I studied a master's degree at the London College of Fashion. I could meet so many
colleagues from all over the world. For Asians,mostly they are more demure. They are very down to
earth and they are they didn't talk too much aboutwhat is their thinking, inside. And for Europeans,
(04:52):
they are very outgoing. They very much like toexpress themselves. I can say an example is,
I have an Italian colleague, who is my very goodfriend. Mostly, Italian guys or Italian women,
they are seductive. And then that means that theirclothing somehow shows their sensuality from the
inside (05:19):
very tight waists, very tight hips, to show the natural streamline, the natural curve
of the woman. And for the men, showing theirmasculinity. So this is what is their culture.
But in China, or in Asia, we use clothing tohide our sensuality. You can see straight lines,
(05:41):
and they don't want to explore their body outside.It depends on the culture, we really don't want
to show what we are thinking to the outside.OF: Interesting. Which is I guess, in direct
contrast to the Italian culture, for example.OC: Yeah, yeah. Because of the background
of Hong Kong (06:00):
East meets West. So I use the Western cutting, but you can see the thinking
is Chinese philosophy. I started to realise thatI needed a good investigation, or a good study,
of my own culture. Because in Hong Kong, when Iwas studying, mostly they tend to be much more
(06:26):
Western. Actually it’s a very big difficultyfor Hong Kong people, especially those are
30-something in age.OF: Yeah.
OC (06:35):
Or 40-something age. We didn't know much about China.
OF (06:38):
You have, like, a split personality, almost. OC
realised that I am Chinese, is when I went toParis when I was 20. There, there weren’t many
people who knew the difference between Hong Kongand China. And somehow I would say “I'm from Hong
(07:02):
Kong”, and would keep claiming that I'm from HongKong, and they said “Oh, China”, and asked me many
things that actually i didn't know.OF: Isn’t that funny.
OC (07:09):
Yeah. Yeah. OF
do. How you define yourself. But then it's funnybecause the outside world can also define you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
think “OK, well what the hell am I?”OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow I was
struggling with this at that time.OF: Yeah.
And for now, I would say I'm Chinese. OF
And after reinterpreting it, you take your own culture to the next level. And I think this is the
(07:37):
responsibility of a designer in this decade.OF: Right. So from what you're saying then,
did you go from London straight to MainlandChina? Or did you come back through Hong Kong?
I came back through Hong Kong. And then I started to realise that I needed to know more
about China, and I started working as a designerthere, and started my design journey in China.
OF (08:00):
Great. OC
And I know that where you ended up was in childrenswear, right?
OC (08:05):
Yeah. OF
What was it like to design childrenswear in China?OC: Actually, the brand that I was
working in is the biggest brand in China. So thecompany is called YeehoO. “Yeehoo”, just like the
sound that babies make. Why childrenswear is verydifficult is because of the restrictions in China.
(08:31):
The restrictions in China, I can say, are the mostdifficult restrictions in the world. Because maybe
the colour fasting is not good enough, maybe thestring is too long, and can be a danger for kids…
OF (08:48):
Oh because the string can strangle… OC
Interesting. And that's funny. So actually, the rules in China are
stricter than in Europe and in the U.S?OC: Yeah, yeah. And then the customer
here is like “You can't have this on mybaby, because my baby is very pure. And
my baby’s an angel”, something like that.OF: Right. So if it's too risky, then it's
(09:09):
simpler just to disallow it.OC: Yeah disallow it.
OK. Well, we skipped over one part of your career. During this part of your career,
you got a very important client, didn't you?OC: Yes.
Now, let me make clear to listeners. We're not allowed to say who this client is, right?
OC (09:28):
Yeah. OF
Yeah. OF
Yeah. OF
will not tell them if they are correct or wrong.OC: Of course, that's the thing, I cannot tell.
OF (09:42):
OK, so having said that, let's talk about your experiences with this client. So what was
it like working with this client interms of the access it allowed you,
and the designs you were able to make?OC: I think I'm very lucky to be chosen
to work for her as a designer for around fiveyears. Yeah. So the events are very important
(10:13):
visits to the highest person in each country.And when she met the person in that country,
I made the clothes for her. And the clothes aredesigned according to each country's culture,
and combined with our own Chinese culture.OF: Amazing. So can you give an example? Like,
(10:37):
when did you assimilate these twocultures with a fashion design?
OC (10:40):
Actually it is a very difficult process. Every decision you need to make is very precise. And you
need to have a lot of investigation (10:51):
investigation of the scenery, of where she goes; investigation
of the people she's going to meet; the culture inthat country, or the things in that country which
(11:11):
are not allowed, or which is not…OF: The things that are taboo,
which you can't wear?OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (11:18):
Right. So I'm just thinking like, if there was a country where there's a
certain bird which is bad luck, you can'thave the person wearing an outfit which
depicts that bird, right? Just as an example.OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Normally
it’s not birds, but flowers. You can see flowers,they have so many meanings in most countries.
So mostly, I will use my own culture to applyto the design, like the printing, embroidery,
(11:46):
and also the coloration. Let's say there’s acountry where mostly their colours cannot be
too bright, in that ceremony we would use monotonecolours, like black and white, and maybe emerald,
(12:07):
very dark green, or deep blue to presentour own clothes. So with different scenery,
we would have a different choice of colours.Like when when you're going to a hot country,
bright colours would be a good pick. And also,you need to be in contrast with the people
(12:28):
who will sit or stand next to you. So you need toguess what the people who will sit and stand next
to you would wear, and then you need to thinkabout a good strategy for her to look unique,
being elegant and showing the beauty of China.OF: And you say ‘the beauty of China’ so
(12:54):
do you incorporate specific traditionalChinese designs into the clothes as well?
OC (12:59):
Yeah, of course. This is our responsibility, of course. So we need to combine 苏州 [Sūzhōu]
embroidery, and also we can have some brocadewhich weaves our lucky symbols inside.
OF (13:16):
Right. Well, maybe if it's possible, we should have some photos
that describe these little design elements.OC: Yeah, yeah, of course. Some of them - part
of the details, close-up, we can.OF: OK, good. You know, I talk to
many people about different stylesof communication, be it in talking,
in writing, you know like painting and dancing.But this is, you know, where you're communicating
(13:40):
through clothing is something which I don'tunderstand myself. I think it's fascinating.
OC (13:43):
Yeah, it’s a very difficult touch. And it’s very different. Actually, presenting an artwork
somehow is very personal. But for clothing - orpresenting the design details on clothing - you
are manipulating an international language.Somehow you can put your language on your
(14:07):
clothing. So that's why I use a lot of experienceto study different cultures around the world,
and then try to develop a new presentationof a contemporary language on clothing.
OF (14:24):
I guess that's the positive side. What have been the challenges, then,
in working with such a high profile person?OC: Mostly it’s the stress. You cannot do anything
wrong, of course. And every clothing I made, wejust only have one chance. And this chance will
(14:49):
be history. And you cannot change history.So that means your mistake will be history.
Right. But then do you have a consultation, where you can
talk with the client and they can tell you ifyou're going in the right or wrong direction?
OC (15:06):
It’s not very straightforward. Some decisions will be lost in translation, and
somehow you need to guess what the client likes,which is the most difficult part in this job.
OF (15:22):
Well, let's leave this example and we can now talk more generally. Because
when you talk about how you guess what aclient want, that must apply to any client.
So how do you go about guessing what they want?OC: Actually, every person has a different method.
For me, I would read through the research first.You can see the silhouette, the colours, and the
(15:48):
design or the cutting that she mostly likes. Andsomehow I will have another underground guess,
because I'm very addicted to horoscopes. And thishelps me come to some decision, or to guess, what
(16:11):
the client will like.OF: So I'm Leo.
OC (16:14):
Yeah. OF
your client then, what would you assume for a Leo?OC: Leo, the representative symbol is the sun. And
so Leos mostly like to be in the spotlight.OF: Oh, no. This is gonna be
embarrassing. Keep going.OC: Actually, I admire Leos very
(16:35):
much. They love being on the stage. Somehowthey they want to be a king or a queen.
OF (16:43):
Which one am I? OC
shows your identity. The woman who is Leo… I don'tknow why, they like animal prints. Most of them.
So they like leopard print, tiger print…OF: Oh, leopard and tiger, right.
OC (17:08):
Yeah. OF
then. If there's any specific star sign thatyou like to design for, which one would it be?
Alright that say Pisces. OF
Pisces, Pisces. So Pisces women mostly like romantic things. So you can say chiffon,
(17:32):
and ruffles, tiny details which have moreembroidery on them. You present her like
Goddess in Greek times, maybe she likes it.But of course, it’s not just only the sun
sign in Pisces. People because different peoplehave different presentations of their horoscope.
OF (17:55):
Yeah. So I guess what you're saying is, you'll meet them in person, but you'll come in with a
little bit of extra knowledge with that horoscope.OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
How funny. OK, well, in terms of how you manage people, then - apart
from maybe going to the horoscope side - howdo you find working particularly in China?
OC (18:14):
So I want my company to be a very lightweight company. You don't have so much
hierarchy, flat enough to make things happen.OF: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you've had such a
long career. But now this is really the first timethat you are in control from top to bottom, right?
(18:36):
Yeah, yeah. OF
side as well as the design side? Or do you think,at heart, you still prefer the design side?
I was inputting too much time in investigating design in the first 10
years of my career. And now I think I needto move to the next level, balancing the
(19:00):
creativity and also the commercial side.OF: Well, good luck with everything.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?OC: I loved Chinese history when I was young.
(19:22):
All the first kings of each dynastydestroyed the previous dynasty. And
you feel that it’s time to make somechange. And if it’s long-lasting or not,
we didn't know. But change is the miracle word.OF: Right, I understand. So basically, when it's
(19:47):
the first king of a new dynasty then they arethe ones who are responsible for getting rid of
the previous dynasty.OC: Yeah.
OF (19:52):
And then only history knows how long this new dynasty will last,
but it's all about creating new things, right?OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's why I became
a designer. I like to create things.OF: How interesting. Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?OC: I’ve a favourite phase, but it’s
very hard to translate into English. I try I try.厚德载物，行稳致远 [Hòudé zǎiwù, xíngwěn zhìyuǎn]. That
(20:21):
means to be good in life you need to have a goodpersonality, you need to be kind to attract things
towards you. But you need to walk steadily towalk far. When I translate it into English,
it looks a little bit stupid.OF: What's your favourite
(20:43):
destination within China?OC: I think where I am, Shanghai. Shanghai is
very pretty of course. What do you think, Oscar?OF: Well, I'm a bit biased as well. But you know,
I like to travel as well and explorenew places. So living and travelling,
I think are two separate things.
OC (20:59):
Yeah. OF
for me it's always nice to get home to Shanghai.OC: Yeah, yeah. Shanghai, I think the culture is
different. Actually, some of the old Hong Kongculture was influenced by Shanghai at that time.
OF (21:13):
Right. OC
many poets who lived here, and some of the famouspolitical people. It contains so many different
types of people. So that means Shanghai is a verygood city for you to connect different ideas,
and then you can find your own way.OF: Yeah, I agree.
OC (21:33):
Yeah. OF
that's where it's similar to Hong Kong.They've historically both been very open,
outwardly-looking cities.OC: Yeah.
OF (21:40):
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
OC (21:44):
My answer is very ordinary. Food. So of course in London,
you had a very good Chinatown. Because many HongKong people went there and opened restaurants. But
when you’re in Paris - I also lived for a whilein Paris - Chinese food in Paris is terrible.
OF (22:05):
Ooh. OC
the Vietnamese food there is very delicious.OF: Right, right.
OC (22:11):
So it’s different. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?OC: What surprised me is the way you use WeChat
Pay. Maybe you just spend $1 to buy an onionin the market, you can just pay it. So I'm
very surprised. And I think the electronicdevelopment here is really pretty awesome.
OF (22:36):
Yeah, I agree. OK, next question. Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat to drink to hang out?OC: The best restaurant I really like
is called Highline, which is on the sixth floor ofthe Ascott. And the best drinks is Sober Company…
Sober Company? OC
(22:59):
in Asia. And it was opened by a Japanese person.OF: Oh right. OK, let's move on. What is the best
or worst purchase you've recently made?OC: It’s Taobao.
Right. But what about the actual thing you bought? Like, do you remember, was there
a really good thing, or a really bad thing?OC: You can find anything there, even if you’re
(23:20):
applying for a visa. I think it’s such a miracle,because you want to apply for a visa - like for
Vietnam, or somewhere - you can just sendyour passport copy, and then they send you
a real actual paper visa, directly to your home.OF: Wow. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
OC (23:40):
Oh. OF
It’s an illustrated human, and the hands are moving like a fan,
and firing many hearts from them.OF: That’s very cute. What's
your go-to song to sing at KTV?OC: I think most Hong Kong people
(24:03):
like Eason Chan.OF: Right?
Yeah. We can find lots of Hong Kong culture in the lyrics. So the one I love is called… Can
I say it in Cantonese this time?OF: Yes, of course.
歲月如歌 [Sui Yuet Yue Goh]. OF
one. I can't speak Cantonese though,so that's going to be hard for me.
I'll send you, I’ll send you. OF
(24:28):
media or sources of information do you use?OC: SCMP, the South China Morning Post in
Hong Kong. But also I will watch 腾新 [Téngxīn].I like to investigate the difference between
media which are not in the same place. Yeah.OF: Right. Well, thank you so much, Octo.
(24:50):
Thank you Oscar. OF
Thank you. I hope it will be a big hit all around the world, yeah.
OF (24:58):
Well before you leave, out of everyone you know in China,
who do you recommend that I interview next?OC: Right. I'm recommending a very good guy
called Douglon. He's from a very interestingfamily. He's doing a very good business,
it’s a small island next to Shanghai.OF: Great, well I'd love to go to that
(25:20):
island, sounds fascinating. And thanks somuch, I look forward to meeting Douglon.
OC (25:23):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: And with
those final words, that's a wrap on Season01 of Mosaic of China. Thank you to Octo
for giving up her time, and thanks to theother 29 guests as well. As you can hear,
the guests contribute a lot to theprogramme, not just with their stories,
but also with preparing their object, in sharingextra images with me for social media, and in
(25:47):
nominating somebody for the next season. This hasbeen a real team effort, so thank you sincerely.
And speaking of team effort, I want to give aproper thanks to the three people I mention at
the end of every episode. Firstly, there's Milo dePrieto, who helped to guide me through the setup
and to create the sound of the podcast from dayone. He also helped to edit down the first half
(26:08):
of the series, and taught me how to do it so thatI can handle the second half by myself. Secondly,
there's Alston Gong, who got me set upon the China side. Thanks to Alston,
the podcast is up and running on 喜马拉雅[Xǐmǎlāyǎ] and on 微博 [Wēibó], and again,
he taught me how to do it before passing over thebaton at the start of the year. And if Milo helped
to create the sound of the podcast, then DennyNewell is the one I need to thank for creating
(26:32):
the look of the podcast. Denny designed thelogo and the individual tiles for each guest,
and as I have zero skill in graphic design, Idon't think he stands a chance in handing over
those responsibilities to me anytime soon.So I'm sorry, Denny, you're stuck with me.
There are so many others who played a part inthis. I want to thank the teams at Unravel,
Podfest and IPWS, all three of these organisationshelped me find the courage to jump into this
(26:57):
project. And finally to the individualswho helped at various points along the way,
including Rebecca Kanthor, Clara Davis,朱梦洁 [Zhū Mèngjié], Josh Ogden-Davis,
Jessica Gleeson, Nestor Gounaris, GabbyGabriel, Dave Bennett, Vaché Petrossian,
Kiran Ragireddy, Shannon Martin and CurtisBaker. I know I've missed out some people there,
(27:18):
so if you're one of them, please giveme a sharp kick when you next see me.
Finally, and most cheesily, I want toalso thank you for listening. There have
been times when doing this podcast everyweek has been tougher than I anticipated,
especially in the last few months where firstChina and then the rest of the world has felt
like it's been chewed up and spat out. So thankyou all so much for listening and for engaging
(27:40):
with these stories. It has been a pleasure forme to be with you, and I'm looking forward to
doing it again next season. Before that, I'llbe back next week with a special end-of-season
episode in which I'll also let you know what toexpect over the next few months. See you then.
[Trailer]OC: We just only have
(00:04):
one chance. And this chance will be history.So that means your mistake will be history.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
So it's the final episode of the season, whichstarted way back in August of last year. That's
(00:30):
only eight months ago, but sometimes eight monthscan feel like a lifetime. And looking back today,
I can somehow see how this podcast has beenan exercise in describing the experiences
of East meeting West. Across these 30 episodes,we've been looking at aspects of life in China,
sometimes through an expert's lens, andother times more through an outsider's lens,
but on each occasion in a way thathelps an English-speaking audience
(00:52):
experience how one culture speaks toanother through its human stories.
Today's episode is with Octo Cheung, whois a Hong Kong born fashion designer based
in mainland China. Before this interview, Iwas wondering how Octo’s story would fit into
the East meets West fabric of the series.But as you'll hear, not only does it fit,
it ended up being one of the best examples.Octo’s experiences delicately weave together
(01:17):
the elements of culture and identity thatdefine her life and her work. And when you
hear about her special private client,you will recognise how fashion is yet
another language we can use to interpret thedialogue between China and the outside world.
[Part 1]OF: Well thanks so much for coming today, Octo.
OC (01:35):
Thank you. OF
have you. I'm here with Octo Cheung, and Octois a fashion designer and Co-founder of AirOgo.
Yeah. OF
you too much about it, because I can already seewhat your object is. So let me ask you the first
question, which is, what object did you bring?OC: So today I brought my company's innovative
(01:58):
product, which is an AirOgo “pilloon” jacket.“Pilloon”: this is a word that is a combination
of ‘balloon’ and ‘pillow’. So have you everthought about a jacket which has a travel
pillow insert in the collar?OF: OK, so you can hear Octo
(02:18):
unfurling her jacket right now.OC: Yeah. So Oscar can see the beautiful
jacket. You can see a pump. You blow it. And thenyou can sleep with the heat-generated mask. You
(02:40):
put your hood on, and you can sleep anywhereyou like. Even on the street, on the bench,
in the park, plane, train, or anywhere you want.OF: That's great. It's a mixture of a jacket and
basically a sleeping bag.OC: Yeah, yeah, it is.
OF (02:56):
Well, I'll definitely have to include an image or two on social media so people can
actually see what this looks like. it's quitehard to describe, I must say. So thank you so
much for bringing that in Octo, I guessthat leads me to ask you the most obvious
question which is, what is your background?OC: Actually, I studied in Hong Kong when I
(03:18):
was young. I start from 17 - something like that -fashion design. And after university, I went to a
brand called G2000, which mainly makes occasionalwear. Suits, suits and suits. And so actually
I feel very tired when I'm doing very ordinarydesign, so then I started to apply for an award
(03:46):
called the Hong Kong Young Design Talent Award.OF: ‘Young Design Talent Award’?
OC (03:49):
Yeah. OF
And this is a very difficult award, because it's architecture, graphics,
interior design, fashion design, industrialdesign, so many design fields, but just
only two people can get the scholarship ofHKD250k. So that's why… Luckily I got it,
(04:12):
in the end.OF: Wow.
Yeah. OF
Of course, my dream place
that, I promise.OC: Right, yeah.
OF (04:26):
And so you studied there. Where were you studying?
OC (04:28):
So I studied a master's degree at the London College of Fashion. I could meet so many
colleagues from all over the world. For Asians,mostly they are more demure. They are very down to
earth and they are they didn't talk too much aboutwhat is their thinking, inside. And for Europeans,
(04:52):
they are very outgoing. They very much like toexpress themselves. I can say an example is,
I have an Italian colleague, who is my very goodfriend. Mostly, Italian guys or Italian women,
they are seductive. And then that means that theirclothing somehow shows their sensuality from the
inside (05:19):
very tight waists, very tight hips, to show the natural streamline, the natural curve
of the woman. And for the men, showing theirmasculinity. So this is what is their culture.
But in China, or in Asia, we use clothing tohide our sensuality. You can see straight lines,
(05:41):
and they don't want to explore their body outside.It depends on the culture, we really don't want
to show what we are thinking to the outside.OF: Interesting. Which is I guess, in direct
contrast to the Italian culture, for example.OC: Yeah, yeah. Because of the background
of Hong Kong (06:00):
East meets West. So I use the Western cutting, but you can see the thinking
is Chinese philosophy. I started to realise thatI needed a good investigation, or a good study,
of my own culture. Because in Hong Kong, when Iwas studying, mostly they tend to be much more
(06:26):
Western. Actually it’s a very big difficultyfor Hong Kong people, especially those are
30-something in age.OF: Yeah.
OC (06:35):
Or 40-something age. We didn't know much about China.
OF (06:38):
You have, like, a split personality, almost. OC
realised that I am Chinese, is when I went toParis when I was 20. There, there weren’t many
people who knew the difference between Hong Kongand China. And somehow I would say “I'm from Hong
(07:02):
Kong”, and would keep claiming that I'm from HongKong, and they said “Oh, China”, and asked me many
things that actually i didn't know.OF: Isn’t that funny.
OC (07:09):
Yeah. Yeah. OF
do. How you define yourself. But then it's funnybecause the outside world can also define you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
think “OK, well what the hell am I?”OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somehow I was
struggling with this at that time.OF: Yeah.
And for now, I would say I'm Chinese. OF
And after reinterpreting it, you take your own culture to the next level. And I think this is the
(07:37):
responsibility of a designer in this decade.OF: Right. So from what you're saying then,
did you go from London straight to MainlandChina? Or did you come back through Hong Kong?
I came back through Hong Kong. And then I started to realise that I needed to know more
about China, and I started working as a designerthere, and started my design journey in China.
OF (08:00):
Great. OC
And I know that where you ended up was in childrenswear, right?
OC (08:05):
Yeah. OF
What was it like to design childrenswear in China?OC: Actually, the brand that I was
working in is the biggest brand in China. So thecompany is called YeehoO. “Yeehoo”, just like the
sound that babies make. Why childrenswear is verydifficult is because of the restrictions in China.
(08:31):
The restrictions in China, I can say, are the mostdifficult restrictions in the world. Because maybe
the colour fasting is not good enough, maybe thestring is too long, and can be a danger for kids…
OF (08:48):
Oh because the string can strangle… OC
Interesting. And that's funny. So actually, the rules in China are
stricter than in Europe and in the U.S?OC: Yeah, yeah. And then the customer
here is like “You can't have this on mybaby, because my baby is very pure. And
my baby’s an angel”, something like that.OF: Right. So if it's too risky, then it's
(09:09):
simpler just to disallow it.OC: Yeah disallow it.
OK. Well, we skipped over one part of your career. During this part of your career,
you got a very important client, didn't you?OC: Yes.
Now, let me make clear to listeners. We're not allowed to say who this client is, right?
OC (09:28):
Yeah. OF
Yeah. OF
Yeah. OF
will not tell them if they are correct or wrong.OC: Of course, that's the thing, I cannot tell.
OF (09:42):
OK, so having said that, let's talk about your experiences with this client. So what was
it like working with this client interms of the access it allowed you,
and the designs you were able to make?OC: I think I'm very lucky to be chosen
to work for her as a designer for around fiveyears. Yeah. So the events are very important
(10:13):
visits to the highest person in each country.And when she met the person in that country,
I made the clothes for her. And the clothes aredesigned according to each country's culture,
and combined with our own Chinese culture.OF: Amazing. So can you give an example? Like,
(10:37):
when did you assimilate these twocultures with a fashion design?
OC (10:40):
Actually it is a very difficult process. Every decision you need to make is very precise. And you
need to have a lot of investigation (10:51):
investigation of the scenery, of where she goes; investigation
of the people she's going to meet; the culture inthat country, or the things in that country which
(11:11):
are not allowed, or which is not…OF: The things that are taboo,
which you can't wear?OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (11:18):
Right. So I'm just thinking like, if there was a country where there's a
certain bird which is bad luck, you can'thave the person wearing an outfit which
depicts that bird, right? Just as an example.OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Normally
it’s not birds, but flowers. You can see flowers,they have so many meanings in most countries.
So mostly, I will use my own culture to applyto the design, like the printing, embroidery,
(11:46):
and also the coloration. Let's say there’s acountry where mostly their colours cannot be
too bright, in that ceremony we would use monotonecolours, like black and white, and maybe emerald,
(12:07):
very dark green, or deep blue to presentour own clothes. So with different scenery,
we would have a different choice of colours.Like when when you're going to a hot country,
bright colours would be a good pick. And also,you need to be in contrast with the people
(12:28):
who will sit or stand next to you. So you need toguess what the people who will sit and stand next
to you would wear, and then you need to thinkabout a good strategy for her to look unique,
being elegant and showing the beauty of China.OF: And you say ‘the beauty of China’ so
(12:54):
do you incorporate specific traditionalChinese designs into the clothes as well?
OC (12:59):
Yeah, of course. This is our responsibility, of course. So we need to combine 苏州 [Sūzhōu]
embroidery, and also we can have some brocadewhich weaves our lucky symbols inside.
OF (13:16):
Right. Well, maybe if it's possible, we should have some photos
that describe these little design elements.OC: Yeah, yeah, of course. Some of them - part
of the details, close-up, we can.OF: OK, good. You know, I talk to
many people about different stylesof communication, be it in talking,
in writing, you know like painting and dancing.But this is, you know, where you're communicating
(13:40):
through clothing is something which I don'tunderstand myself. I think it's fascinating.
OC (13:43):
Yeah, it’s a very difficult touch. And it’s very different. Actually, presenting an artwork
somehow is very personal. But for clothing - orpresenting the design details on clothing - you
are manipulating an international language.Somehow you can put your language on your
(14:07):
clothing. So that's why I use a lot of experienceto study different cultures around the world,
and then try to develop a new presentationof a contemporary language on clothing.
OF (14:24):
I guess that's the positive side. What have been the challenges, then,
in working with such a high profile person?OC: Mostly it’s the stress. You cannot do anything
wrong, of course. And every clothing I made, wejust only have one chance. And this chance will
(14:49):
be history. And you cannot change history.So that means your mistake will be history.
Right. But then do you have a consultation, where you can
talk with the client and they can tell you ifyou're going in the right or wrong direction?
OC (15:06):
It’s not very straightforward. Some decisions will be lost in translation, and
somehow you need to guess what the client likes,which is the most difficult part in this job.
OF (15:22):
Well, let's leave this example and we can now talk more generally. Because
when you talk about how you guess what aclient want, that must apply to any client.
So how do you go about guessing what they want?OC: Actually, every person has a different method.
For me, I would read through the research first.You can see the silhouette, the colours, and the
(15:48):
design or the cutting that she mostly likes. Andsomehow I will have another underground guess,
because I'm very addicted to horoscopes. And thishelps me come to some decision, or to guess, what
(16:11):
the client will like.OF: So I'm Leo.
OC (16:14):
Yeah. OF
your client then, what would you assume for a Leo?OC: Leo, the representative symbol is the sun. And
so Leos mostly like to be in the spotlight.OF: Oh, no. This is gonna be
embarrassing. Keep going.OC: Actually, I admire Leos very
(16:35):
much. They love being on the stage. Somehowthey they want to be a king or a queen.
OF (16:43):
Which one am I? OC
shows your identity. The woman who is Leo… I don'tknow why, they like animal prints. Most of them.
So they like leopard print, tiger print…OF: Oh, leopard and tiger, right.
OC (17:08):
Yeah. OF
then. If there's any specific star sign thatyou like to design for, which one would it be?
Alright that say Pisces. OF
Pisces, Pisces. So Pisces women mostly like romantic things. So you can say chiffon,
(17:32):
and ruffles, tiny details which have moreembroidery on them. You present her like
Goddess in Greek times, maybe she likes it.But of course, it’s not just only the sun
sign in Pisces. People because different peoplehave different presentations of their horoscope.
OF (17:55):
Yeah. So I guess what you're saying is, you'll meet them in person, but you'll come in with a
little bit of extra knowledge with that horoscope.OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.
How funny. OK, well, in terms of how you manage people, then - apart
from maybe going to the horoscope side - howdo you find working particularly in China?
OC (18:14):
So I want my company to be a very lightweight company. You don't have so much
hierarchy, flat enough to make things happen.OF: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you've had such a
long career. But now this is really the first timethat you are in control from top to bottom, right?
(18:36):
Yeah, yeah. OF
side as well as the design side? Or do you think,at heart, you still prefer the design side?
I was inputting too much time in investigating design in the first 10
years of my career. And now I think I needto move to the next level, balancing the
(19:00):
creativity and also the commercial side.OF: Well, good luck with everything.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?OC: I loved Chinese history when I was young.
(19:22):
All the first kings of each dynastydestroyed the previous dynasty. And
you feel that it’s time to make somechange. And if it’s long-lasting or not,
we didn't know. But change is the miracle word.OF: Right, I understand. So basically, when it's
(19:47):
the first king of a new dynasty then they arethe ones who are responsible for getting rid of
the previous dynasty.OC: Yeah.
OF (19:52):
And then only history knows how long this new dynasty will last,
but it's all about creating new things, right?OC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's why I became
a designer. I like to create things.OF: How interesting. Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?OC: I’ve a favourite phase, but it’s
very hard to translate into English. I try I try.厚德载物，行稳致远 [Hòudé zǎiwù, xíngwěn zhìyuǎn]. That
(20:21):
means to be good in life you need to have a goodpersonality, you need to be kind to attract things
towards you. But you need to walk steadily towalk far. When I translate it into English,
it looks a little bit stupid.OF: What's your favourite
(20:43):
destination within China?OC: I think where I am, Shanghai. Shanghai is
very pretty of course. What do you think, Oscar?OF: Well, I'm a bit biased as well. But you know,
I like to travel as well and explorenew places. So living and travelling,
I think are two separate things.
OC (20:59):
Yeah. OF
for me it's always nice to get home to Shanghai.OC: Yeah, yeah. Shanghai, I think the culture is
different. Actually, some of the old Hong Kongculture was influenced by Shanghai at that time.
OF (21:13):
Right. OC
many poets who lived here, and some of the famouspolitical people. It contains so many different
types of people. So that means Shanghai is a verygood city for you to connect different ideas,
and then you can find your own way.OF: Yeah, I agree.
OC (21:33):
Yeah. OF
that's where it's similar to Hong Kong.They've historically both been very open,
outwardly-looking cities.OC: Yeah.
OF (21:40):
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
OC (21:44):
My answer is very ordinary. Food. So of course in London,
you had a very good Chinatown. Because many HongKong people went there and opened restaurants. But
when you’re in Paris - I also lived for a whilein Paris - Chinese food in Paris is terrible.
OF (22:05):
Ooh. OC
the Vietnamese food there is very delicious.OF: Right, right.
OC (22:11):
So it’s different. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?OC: What surprised me is the way you use WeChat
Pay. Maybe you just spend $1 to buy an onionin the market, you can just pay it. So I'm
very surprised. And I think the electronicdevelopment here is really pretty awesome.
OF (22:36):
Yeah, I agree. OK, next question. Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat to drink to hang out?OC: The best restaurant I really like
is called Highline, which is on the sixth floor ofthe Ascott. And the best drinks is Sober Company…
Sober Company? OC
(22:59):
in Asia. And it was opened by a Japanese person.OF: Oh right. OK, let's move on. What is the best
or worst purchase you've recently made?OC: It’s Taobao.
Right. But what about the actual thing you bought? Like, do you remember, was there
a really good thing, or a really bad thing?OC: You can find anything there, even if you’re
(23:20):
applying for a visa. I think it’s such a miracle,because you want to apply for a visa - like for
Vietnam, or somewhere - you can just sendyour passport copy, and then they send you
a real actual paper visa, directly to your home.OF: Wow. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
OC (23:40):
Oh. OF
It’s an illustrated human, and the hands are moving like a fan,
and firing many hearts from them.OF: That’s very cute. What's
your go-to song to sing at KTV?OC: I think most Hong Kong people
(24:03):
like Eason Chan.OF: Right?
Yeah. We can find lots of Hong Kong culture in the lyrics. So the one I love is called… Can
I say it in Cantonese this time?OF: Yes, of course.
歲月如歌 [Sui Yuet Yue Goh]. OF
one. I can't speak Cantonese though,so that's going to be hard for me.
I'll send you, I’ll send you. OF
(24:28):
media or sources of information do you use?OC: SCMP, the South China Morning Post in
Hong Kong. But also I will watch 腾新 [Téngxīn].I like to investigate the difference between
media which are not in the same place. Yeah.OF: Right. Well, thank you so much, Octo.
(24:50):
Thank you Oscar. OF
Thank you. I hope it will be a big hit all around the world, yeah.
OF (24:58):
Well before you leave, out of everyone you know in China,
who do you recommend that I interview next?OC: Right. I'm recommending a very good guy
called Douglon. He's from a very interestingfamily. He's doing a very good business,
it’s a small island next to Shanghai.OF: Great, well I'd love to go to that
(25:20):
island, sounds fascinating. And thanks somuch, I look forward to meeting Douglon.
OC (25:23):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: And with
those final words, that's a wrap on Season01 of Mosaic of China. Thank you to Octo
for giving up her time, and thanks to theother 29 guests as well. As you can hear,
the guests contribute a lot to theprogramme, not just with their stories,
but also with preparing their object, in sharingextra images with me for social media, and in
(25:47):
nominating somebody for the next season. This hasbeen a real team effort, so thank you sincerely.
And speaking of team effort, I want to give aproper thanks to the three people I mention at
the end of every episode. Firstly, there's Milo dePrieto, who helped to guide me through the setup
and to create the sound of the podcast from dayone. He also helped to edit down the first half
(26:08):
of the series, and taught me how to do it so thatI can handle the second half by myself. Secondly,
there's Alston Gong, who got me set upon the China side. Thanks to Alston,
the podcast is up and running on 喜马拉雅[Xǐmǎlāyǎ] and on 微博 [Wēibó], and again,
he taught me how to do it before passing over thebaton at the start of the year. And if Milo helped
to create the sound of the podcast, then DennyNewell is the one I need to thank for creating
(26:32):
the look of the podcast. Denny designed thelogo and the individual tiles for each guest,
and as I have zero skill in graphic design, Idon't think he stands a chance in handing over
those responsibilities to me anytime soon.So I'm sorry, Denny, you're stuck with me.
There are so many others who played a part inthis. I want to thank the teams at Unravel,
Podfest and IPWS, all three of these organisationshelped me find the courage to jump into this
(26:57):
project. And finally to the individualswho helped at various points along the way,
including Rebecca Kanthor, Clara Davis,朱梦洁 [Zhū Mèngjié], Josh Ogden-Davis,
Jessica Gleeson, Nestor Gounaris, GabbyGabriel, Dave Bennett, Vaché Petrossian,
Kiran Ragireddy, Shannon Martin and CurtisBaker. I know I've missed out some people there,
(27:18):
so if you're one of them, please giveme a sharp kick when you next see me.
Finally, and most cheesily, I want toalso thank you for listening. There have
been times when doing this podcast everyweek has been tougher than I anticipated,
especially in the last few months where firstChina and then the rest of the world has felt
like it's been chewed up and spat out. So thankyou all so much for listening and for engaging
(27:40):
with these stories. It has been a pleasure forme to be with you, and I'm looking forward to
doing it again next season. Before that, I'llbe back next week with a special end-of-season
episode in which I'll also let you know what toexpect over the next few months. See you then.
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