June 28, 2021 • 39 mins
We started off Season 02 of the podcast with a chat with the Chief Consumer Officer of L'Oréal China. And now that we've reached Episode 22 of the season, it's time to revisit the Chinese consumer from a different angle. Our guest today is Casey Hall, who has spent the last 14 years in China as a journalist, both as the Managing Editor of a city lifestyle magazine network, and most recently as the Asia Correspondent at The Business of Fashion. Focusing on business and lifestyle topics has allowed Casey to build a career covering China news in a way that is nuanced, and based on issues affecting society and culture. And through the lens of the fashion industry, we can learn a lot about the way Chinese people - be they from different generations, or from different regions - develop their tastes, and live their lives. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Vy Vu from Season 01 Episode 08. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-08-vy-vu). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:12 - Part 1 19:31 - Part 2 29:32 - Outro 32:55 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-22-casey-hall.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: I like it when you say a phrase that has
obviously been translated from Chinese (00:04):
‘Human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu]s’.
CH (00:09):
Yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is with the journalist, CaseyHall. I'm always grateful when a journalist
agrees to talk with me on this podcast, becausethe one thing they all have in common is that
(00:30):
they never want to be the subject of the newsthemselves. The other journalist who has come
on the show before was Eric Olander from Season01 Episode 03, so please check out that episode
if you haven't done so already. Where Casey'sstory differs the most from Eric's is that
Casey's recent focus has been on reportingtrends in lifestyle and consumerism. If you
(00:54):
would like to hear us talk more about herearlier career in news journalism in China,
please subscribe to the PREMIUM version ofthe podcast on Patreon internationally, or
on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] if you're in China.Just head to https://mosaicofchina.com and
follow the links there. Right, on with show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much Casey. I'm here with
(01:17):
Casey Hall. And Casey, what is your title?CH: I'm the Asia Correspondent for The Business
of Fashion.OF: OK. Well, we'll come to that. But before
we do, I wanted to ask you the burning question,which is, what is the object that you've brought
that in some way defines your life here inChina?
It is a vintage copy of my Lonely Planet guide…
OF (01:36):
Ooh. CH
to anybody anymore. A vintage copy of LonelyPlanet in China, in a place that changes so
quickly. It was my gateway to China, initially.When I first came, I was with my friend and
we backpacked around China for three months.And we used our Lonely Planet to decide where
(01:58):
we were going to go. We didn't have a plan,we were just kind of going from one place
to another. And at that time, after readingthrough the whole Lonely Planet guide, I made
a list that was three A4 pages long of allthe places that I wanted to see in China.
And after 13 years, I am more than two pagesthrough, I'm getting there.
Oh right! Well, thank you. And that book opens up such a lot of conversation starters,
(02:23):
one of which being that you are a journalist.And you have written in a similar style, I
would say, to Lonely Planet, in that you tendto focus on society and culture, and things
that have a bridge between China and the outsideworld.
CH (02:37):
Yeah, absolutely. OF
where does your work in journalism start?CH: In Australia. I did a degree in journalism
at RMIT. And after graduating, I went to workfor a commercial TV station. My first job
was answering the phones, answering the news-line.So people would ring in with their story ideas,
and it was my job to decide whether it wasa story or not. Which is great training, it's
(03:01):
a good way to also become a little bit immuneto criticism, and what other people think.
A lot of, you know, not the most stable peoplein the world like to ring into TV stations.
So…OF: Oh.
It was good, though. It had a really good grounding. And I went from there to becoming
a researcher and kind of field producer onthat show. And then after doing that for three
(03:21):
years, my boyfriend at the time - who's nowmy husband - and my best friend had decided
independently that they were both moving toChina. So I thought, maybe that would be the
thing to do. I came with very little expectationsabout what my work life would be like. And
what I found then - and what I think is stilltrue today - is that the English language
(03:41):
media sphere in China is small, and it's transient.So just by virtue of being here for a long
time, I've been able to come across a lotof really great opportunities. Just because,
you know, it's easy to build a network withpeople who want content from China. And I've
been here from 2007 - so, before the Olympics- till today, so it's never been difficult
(04:05):
for me to find work here.OF: Right, absolutely. And I know where you
are today, The Business of Fashion. But that'snot the starting point, is it?
I worked for a magazine that was part of the That's network, it was called ‘News,
Views and Reviews’ (04:19):
‘NVR’. And from there, I went on to become the Managing Editor
of a city lifestyle magazine network, TalkMagazines. There were six magazines around
the country. And as a newcomer to Shanghai,it was a phenomenal way to get to know the
city. You know, it's a way to get to knowevery restaurant, and every shop, and all
(04:40):
these people in the in the community.OF: You're really in the traffic of what's
going on, right?CH: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even then, there
were lots of ‘old China hands’ that weresaying “You came too late. It’s not like
it was in the old days”. And for me, actually,the biggest difference in my China experience
is, after the first four years, I went toschool full-time and studied Chinese. So for
(05:04):
the first four years, I was here, I had survivalChinese. But after studying full-time for
two years, it was like I had been a blindand a deaf person. Writing about a place where
if you're there for a couple of days, youcan write an article; if you're there for
a couple of months, you can write a book;and if you're there for more than a couple
(05:26):
of years, you can't write more than a line.OF: Yes, I've heard it said in different ways,
but that's a very nice one. You see peoplecome in, they fly in for that week, and they
write the article which then goes global.And you must think “Oh god, what do you
know about that, though?”CH: Yeah, I do, when it comes to some things,
for sure. And I think that, in some ways,that tradition is unhelpful to the mutual
(05:49):
understanding of what is happening in China,and the way that people read that outside
of China. So if there's any frustration, itis that. I think, what seems to always be
the stories about China are ‘Big China,Bad China, Weird China’.
OF (06:03):
Yeah. CH
- ‘Big Bad Weird China’ - is not helpful.OF: I've never heard it said so succinctly.
Thank you for being part of this project,which I hope is not ‘Big Bad Weird China’.
Let's go on then, what was the next phase?CH: So I couldn't work full-time, but I had
(06:25):
time in the afternoons where I could startfreelancing. I did that for the next six years,
basically. I’ve not felt particularly limitedin terms of the things that I can cover. My
attitude has always been that there is a waythat you can cover the country in a meaningful
way that is more nuanced, and based more insociety and culture, than it is the top-line
(06:50):
government and what's important to them.OF: Yeah. And that's, I think, the line that
all of us who are in China have to navigate.So who were your client then, during those
times? You say they were international publications.CH: Oh I worked for a lot of different publications.
The Wall Street Journal, Asia, I did somestuff for; The New York Times International
(07:10):
Edition, they have a section called ‘GreatHomes’, and I was doing their Shanghai Great
Homes for them, which was such a fun job.To get to go into people's homes and sticky
beak around, it suits me.OF: Can you think of an example?
CH (07:21):
There are so many. So I saw a lot of great renovated lane houses. It's also about interesting
ways that people live in a space. So one ofthe most interesting ones I did was actually
a warehouse that was at the end of Metro Line3 near the Forest Park. It had been like a
warehouse conversion, basically, like theymade it into a huge kind of apartment.
OF (07:43):
Oh, I'll have to ask you for a photo of that one.
CH (07:46):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. OF
What other ones did you work for?CH: One of the main ones I worked for was
Women's Wear Daily.OF: Women’s Wear Daily?
Yeah. OF
‘WWD’ was a fashion trade publication, they were looking for someone in mainland
China to be their contributor. I mean, I wrotea lot about - and I still do today - I wrote
a lot about the development of China's consumerculture. That's been one of the themes that's
(08:09):
really kind of run through a lot of my work.For example, about the battle between coffee
and tea in China.OF: And this is the new phenomenon of the
tea shops that are kind of using the Starbucksmodel in China, right?
Yeah, exactly. I mean, Starbucks has had phenomenal success in China. But I think that
a lot of people are not necessarily convincedit's because Chinese people love coffee. I
(08:32):
think it has much more to do with having somewhereto meet up with someone; having somewhere
to spend your 15 minute break at work; andsomewhere that's just easy to set up your
laptop. I think those things are probablymore important than the actual coffee product.
OF (08:48):
I see. Yes. And you're right, because I've been to places around China, and then
you see Starbucks, and you walk in, and it'sthis clean quiet environment. Whereas the
outside might be very different. So I guessthat's the kind of atmosphere they're trying
to emulate.CH: Yeah, it's a huge, huge thing here. Hey
Tea is phenomenally successful. And I'm stillwriting about Hey Tea - weirdly, from a kind
(09:11):
of fashion and beauty perspective - becausea lot of these tea companies - 乐乐茶 [LELECHA]
as well - have partnered with beauty brands,and done cross-promotional collaborations.
Which is not something you necessarily seea lot in the West, you know, beauty brands
collaborating with food and beverage. Butin China, it's really a thing. Maybe it's
also because the tea drinks are quite colourful.OF: Yeah.
CH (09:34):
So for example, there was one collaboration that was a peach drink - so it's kind of like,
you know, a pretty orangey-pink colour - witha blush, which is a similar kind of colour.
So in a way, it works more naturally. ButI also think from a consumer point of view,
people are more accepting of it, there areless stringent rules in people's minds about
(09:54):
what is appropriate or not appropriate.OF: Yes, we seem to have got these lines of
convention about certain things. And thenyou go to a different culture, and you don't
have the same history with these conventions.So you can go over the lines, can’t you?
Yeah, I think with China, something I've always loved is the way that people dress
without ‘codes’ in a way. Like, unlessyou went to a very big law firm or something
(10:19):
very very serious, it would be very rare tosee people wearing business attire, in a Western
context. You know, like, that sense of ‘makingit up as you go along’. And it wasn't bound
by what is appropriate in a workplace setting.OF: Well, let's take this chance now to fast-forward
to your life today. So you are the Asia Correspondentof The Business of Fashion. What are you seeing
(10:41):
from that perspective?CH: There have been huge changes, between
generations in China. And generations in Chinaare only five years. People talk about, you
know, the post-80s and post-90s - and thenthe post-95s, and then the post 2000s - as
being vastly different in the way that theythink about things, and the way that they
(11:01):
buy things. You know, I see younger consumersin particular - and I see study after study
backing this up - that there is much moreof a focus on an individual unique identity,
and expressing that in the way that you mightput your clothes together, or you might express
(11:23):
yourself on social media, so that other peoplecan see what kind of person you are. There's
not just one ‘this is good’ and then there'sthe rest; there are so many variants of what
is good, what is cool, what people want tobuy into now.
OF (11:37):
…Which you would say is similar to what fashion and luxury is in the West, right?
Because in the West, you don't wear head-to-toebrands, you are able to mix-and-match it with
‘this is a cheap thing,’ ‘this is somethingI found in a market’, ‘this is something
I found while travelling.’ And then theskill of putting it together is what makes
you fashionable, right?CH: Yeah, ‘the skill of putting together
(11:57):
things that suit your personality, and canmake other people appreciate who you are’,
is what most of us would call a ‘fashionableperson’, I think. And I see it even, not
just across different generations, but acrossdifferent cities in China. I always see girls
from 成都 [Chéngdū] for example, who arejust able to put together a look that another
(12:19):
person would not be able to put together,in a way that looks cohesive and effortless.
But those girls, they have a knack.OF: There's something about 成都 [Chéngdū].
More and more, I'm hearing people say thatif you want to go where there is cool, it's
actually 成都 [Chéngdū], right?CH: Yeah, I would agree with that. I love
成都 [Chéngdū]. The way that people seemto live their lives there. And I'm saying
(12:42):
this as a visitor of a few days. So it's like,going back to what we were saying before,
you know, like it's making a judgement basedon a very limited experience of life there.
But just the way that people's attitude seemsto be very relaxed. And when you go into a
shop, almost universally, when you're leavingpeople will say “慢走 [Mànzǒu]”, like
(13:04):
a ‘travel safely’ kind of send-off. Youknow, you don't hear that in Shanghai.
No, it's all got a little bit too impersonal here, hasn't it?
CH (13:10):
Yeah, Shanghai is a very commercial place. It is a financial centre, and I think that
in any world financial centre that same feeling- that same kind of focus on commerce - does
give it a different kind of sheen.OF: Yes, the idea of wealth has been normalised
here.CH: Yeah, the idea of wealth, and the focus
(13:32):
on it, as a pursuit.OF: And so with that in mind, who actually
is your readership?CH: So I write for the global Business of
Fashion site, which is read by business fashionprofessionals from around the world, who are
interested in the China market. Some of itis quite consultative, like how to approach
(13:54):
China. The most important thing that I offeris an understanding of what is happening,
and how it's important. You know, how peopleare going about their lives, how they're shopping,
using e-commerce, for example, social media.I think those things can be quite difficult
for people to understand, and they are soimportant for doing business in China, for
(14:17):
any segment.OF: Yeah. What do you say about the market
these days, what changes have happened?CH: I spoke to someone quite recently, who
called COVID-19 ‘The Great Accelerator'.And I think that that is a very apt description.
A lot of what I'm writing about - in termsof the trends in the market in China - are
things that were happening anyway. But COVIDreally pushed it to the next level. So for
(14:42):
example, a trend for wellness - and thereforesports, and therefore sportswear, and sports
brands - that’s been happening for quitea long time. But you know, you get a deadly
pandemic on the scene, and that's going toincrease their focus on health and wellness.
The pivot to digital, that was already somethingthat China was doing ahead of other countries,
(15:03):
but Coronavirus really pushed that to thenext level. Also, I think that there has been
a pride in China and how it has handled COVID-19,and so I think that that represents an opportunity
for domestic brands that might not have beenas popular. The change in that mentality has
been accelerated by COVID as well. And finally,I mean, I was recently writing about the 代购
(15:28):
[dàigòu] trade.OF: 代购 [Dàigòu], what’s that?
It’s surrogate shoppers. 代购 [Dàigòu] has traditionally been a big part of China's
luxury industry. People who are either studentsliving overseas - or people working overseas,
or people travelling overseas - buying andand reselling luxury products or beauty products
back to China. There's a huge trade comingout of Korea.
OF (15:49):
Yes, of course. Because when I go to Korea - or even other parts of the world - you see
a lot of Chinese tourists at these luxurymalls. So these malls aren't for the local
market at all, they’re for the travellingChinese.
CH (15:59):
Yeah. I think I'm right in saying that in 2019, Chinese travellers took 150 million
outbound trips.OF: Woah, yeah.
So there are a lot of Chinese travellers who are travelling around the world, and buying
luxury products while they're outside. Butthen there's a professional element, the 代购
[dàigòu] who sell to their contacts in China,often via WeChat, and send them back. Or in
(16:22):
the case of Korea - 제주 [Jeju] Island isa duty free island that's very, very close
to China - they are ‘human-flesh 代购[dàigòu],’ so they themselves bring suitcases
of duty free stuff back, and resell it inChina.
OF (16:35):
I like it when you say a phrase that has obviously been translated from Chinese
代购 [dàigòu]s’.CH: Yes, ‘human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu]’.
The pandemic has really, obviously, affectedthis industry.
Right. CH
pop over to Korea and pick up a suitcase abeauty products.
Right. CH
whether it might be the end of this traditionof 代购 [dàigòu], which is accountable
(16:58):
for a large percentage of luxury purchasesfrom Chinese consumers.
Right, so I guess the foreign brands that you write for, they would rely on these 代购
[dàigòu]s for a lot of their sales.CH: Yeah, absolutely they do. And that's an
uncomfortable situation, I think, for a lotof foreign brands. Because brands don't love
a grey market. A grey market lessens theircontrol over the messaging, it lessens their
(17:24):
direct relationship with their customers.OF: Right, so you mean that the company can
do all its marketing in China. But then ifthe products are purchased overseas, the marketing
department for the China office of the branddoesn't know if their marketing was successful
or not. Because the shopper in China has actuallypurchased it from a whole different market.
CH (17:41):
They’ve purchased it from a whole different market, and they’ve purchased it after seeing
the photos that have been supplied by the代购 [dàigòu], not by the brand.
OF (17:49):
Oh. CH
images. It's what works for a 代购 [dàigòu],but it's not something that a brand would
necessarily like to see as their marketingimages.
Right. CH
like personal shoppers. Like, they have arelationship with their group of clients.
And they're really trusted. Like, they’realmost like mini-influencers within their
(18:12):
own groups. And so they have a lot of powerand influence over what people buy.
Fascinating. So it's not just parallel importing, it's parallel branding.
CH (18:20):
It is. And brands don't love it on the whole, but there is definitely an opportunity
in kind of, you know, you've got…OF: Harnessing the 代购 [dàigòu] as an
influencer, yeah.CH: Yeah. I mean, it's different than working
with another kind of influencer. But if youwere a small brand, and you wanted to seed
some interest in your brand, then I thinkthat people could do worse than trying to
(18:42):
tap into a 代购 [dàigòu] network, becausethey already have such influence. In 2020,
especially in a year in which sales are harderto come by, the loss of 代购 [dàigòu]
sales can be significant to a company. I mean,a lot of companies are really working hard
to pivot their sales to a re-shoring withinChina. And that's been happening, you know,
there's been a huge bounce for a lot of luxuryplayers in terms of their in-China sales.
OF (19:05):
Right. CH
losing from the Chinese sales overseas isan open question, so I would say it's very
unlikely to make up the whole amount.OF: Well, thank you. For someone who evidently
does not understand fashion - just take onelook at me - you’ve made it very, very interesting.
(19:26):
Thank you so much for that.CH: Any time.
Let’s move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, we're onto Part 2.
CH (19:37):
OK. OF
fact?CH: Big numbers in China. I think as a Chinese
language learner - I don't know whether you'vehad the same thing, but - big numbers are
the hardest thing for me.OF: Yeah.
The way that Chinese people organise big numbers is by tens of thousands, and then
by hundreds of millions, which is not a naturalthing for an English speaker to be able to
(20:03):
translate directly. So I will write down anumber - and have to put all the zeros, and
then count back, and do a comma after everythree zeros - in order to be able to do it.
And my Chinese friends do the same thing whenthey hear English big numbers.
OF (20:16):
Yes. CH
zeros…OF: Yes
CH (20:19):
…So that they can understand it. OF
who doesn't know the numbering system, basicallywe would have one comma and then three naughts,
for 1,000. But they would have one comma followedby four naughts [1,0000] for 10,000, right?
Yeah. OF
(20:39):
word or phrase in Chinese?CH: I do. It's not one you come across very
often.OF: Oh.
So I think for a lot of foreigners, a phrase that would be very frustrating is ‘没办法
[méi bànfǎ]’.OF: 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ].
Which means 'there's no way, no method, no way of doing something’. And I have - in
a few times in my life - come across someonewho, instead of saying “没办法 [Méi
(21:00):
bànfǎ]” says "想一个办法 [Xiǎngyīgè bànfǎ]”, ‘I'll think of a way’.
OF (21:02):
Oh, 想一个办法 [Xiǎng yīgè bànfǎ].” CH
Oh, that's great. That really turns it around.
CH (21:09):
Yeah. And it's happened to me a few times where you would expect someone to shrug their
shoulders and say “没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]”but they've gone the other way, and really
surprised me. And so I think it's becauseit pops up in these situations where I'm least
expecting it that it’s my favourite favouritephrase to hear.
OF (21:25):
Oh, I love it. Because the ‘没办法 [méi bànfǎ]’ has such a resignation about
it. And it's just like “Don't even try,just forget it”. And it seems so final.
So yeah, I love that.CH: Yeah, the first time I ever came across
it was, I was trying to park my bike in acrowded bike parking space. And I looked at
the bike parking attendant basically like“Is there a way I could do this?” And
(21:45):
he said “我想一个办法 [Wǒ xiǎngyīgè bànfǎ].” And I said “Thank you”.
Oh, wow, I want to hug that guy. CH
Yeah. Great. Next, what is your favourite destination within China? And I'm looking
at that book still in front of us, and thething you said about having three pieces of
paper.CH: Yeah, I've been able to knock over quite
a few now. There are still quite a lot ofplaces in the south - in 云南 [Yúnnán]
(22:10):
Province - that I haven't been able to getto. So that's where a lot of my final piece
of paper is concentrated on. I do love 四川[Sìchuān] Province. Many years ago, I went
to 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu] National Park,which is just one of the most spectacular
places I've ever seen. A few years after Iwent, there was a major earthquake, which
(22:32):
damaged the park. And I would be very interestedto go back and see what it looks like now,
and see how different it is.OF: Yeah. Next question, if you left China,
what would you miss the most, and what wouldyou miss the least?
CH (22:43):
煎饼 [Jiānbing]. I’ve said for so many years that people should be exporting
煎饼 [jiānbing] into the West, becausewe foreigners all love that stuff. And it's
a wonderful hangover cure.OF: And how about the things that you wouldn't
miss?CH: I think I would not miss the level of
bureaucracy. If I never had to go to a Chinesebank again, I would be a happy chappy.
OF (23:04):
You have to take a whole file of paperwork, don’t you?
CH (23:06):
You have to take a whole file of paperwork, and half a day, and even then I'll probably
have to go home and get more paperwork.OF: Yep. Is there anything that still surprises
you about life in China?CH: I'm going to answer this in a little bit
of a less light-hearted way. I think thatfor my husband and I - who have been here
for such a long time - one of the things thatwe would say has been a surprise, over the
(23:29):
entire time we've been here, is that we don'thave that many close Chinese friends. And
we have some - and some wonderful, wonderfulfriends - but there is still a difficulty,
I think, with forming widespread meaningfulrelationships between foreigners and Chinese
people. My communication skills are quitegood, I can speak Chinese quite well, I feel
like it's not a language barrier. It is muchmore of a cultural barrier that is difficult
(23:54):
to overcome. I guess I thought that over time,it would become easier. But in many ways it
doesn't. Like, it’s easy to have a lot ofacquaintances, but a kind of more deeper-level
relationship with Chinese people, we’vefound really hard to execute.
OF (24:08):
Yes, I agree with you. I think there are a number of reasons for that. I think Shanghai
being a big imposing city is one of thosereasons. It would be the same if you were
in London, you know, if you were in London,you would gravitate towards other non-Londoners
basically.CH: True.
Because a lot of people in London would have friends since they were at school, and
(24:29):
they're not interested necessarily in newbies,who may be transient and might leave.
CH (24:33):
Yeah. OF
yeah, what you say is true. And it is somethingwhich I see especially with people who are
in relationships with other foreigners. Ithink if you have one of you who is Chinese,
then just naturally you tend to hang aroundwith more people who are Chinese. And it just
is a little bit more difficult when both ofyou are non-Chinese.
(24:54):
I think that it's very fair to say. OF
I don't know. I don't know. And it's something that has been, for a long time, something
that was surprising to both of us.OF: Yeah. Next question, where is your favourite
place to go, to eat or drink or just hangout?
This is a question that's changed quite a lot since we had children. We have three
(25:16):
little girls who are five and three and one.And gosh, so much of our leisure time now
is spent just doing kid-related stuff. I havealways hated malls my entire life, and I spend
so much time in malls now. I can't say it'smy favourite place still to be, but it's an
awfully convenient place to get some kid-relatedactivities. And in a place like Shanghai for
(25:38):
example - where the weather's not always good,the air quality is not always good - also
very convenient. Oh, where do I love? I mean,just this morning I was at Shanghailander
café in 五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù]. I justlove being there.
OF (25:52):
That’s quite a new one, right? CH
sometimes. But to be honest with you, I gothere more when I just want to have like a
little break from everything. I started knittinglast year as a hobby. And at least once a
week I like to go to Shanghailander café,and drink a flat white, and spend an hour
(26:13):
knitting and listening to a podcast. You know,it's not the most exciting life I lead, but
that's my self-care.OF: Oh I like it. What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?CH: If it's Greater China, the absolute best
gift that I've ever given anyone was an originalStar Wars poster - that was in a cinema in
(26:35):
Hong Kong in 1978 - of the first Star Warsmovie. My husband loves Star Wars, and his
parents met and married in Hong Kong. I lovedgiving it to him. And I told him months and
months ahead of Christmas that I got him thebest present ever in the history of the world.
And he was like “You might want to manageexpectations a little bit. You're building
it up a lot”. I said “I'm so confidentthat this is the greatest present that anyone
(26:57):
has given anyone”. I will take a photo foryou.
Yes, please. Next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, send it to me
now.CH: It is a sticker of Elon Musk on stage
in Shanghai doing a really awkward dad dance,looking like a bit of a tool. The reason that
(27:17):
I like this sticker so much is that I useit in so many different contexts.
Oh. CH
“Yay". I also use it as like “Well, thatwas weird”. I also use it when I want to
say that something's failed. It's the onesticker that can mean so many things.
(27:41):
Oh, you're right. It's like a blank canvas upon which you can put whatever emotion you're
feeling.CH: Exactly. And you might not realise it
at first glance, but you can use it in 100different scenarios.
Yes, I see that. Amazing. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
CH (27:58):
These days, I've become a lot more au fait with Disney songs over the last couple
of years. So I could bang out any number ofDisney classics right now at karaoke. And…
OF (28:08):
In Chinese even? Let it go… CH
[Suí tā ba]” Yep. I don't know any ofthe other words aside from “随它吧 [Suí
tā ba].”OF: That’s good enough. And finally, what
other China-related news sources do you relyon?
CH (28:22):
Because of my work, I get a lot of newspaper subscriptions paid for, which is great. But
there is one that I pay for myself, whichI feel like is a glowing endorsement of how
important I find it, if I'm willing to forkover money for it. It's called Sinocism, Bill
Bishop’s?OF: Oh yes, yes.
So I pay an annual fee for that. And I open it every day, and read it every day.
Because it just gives such a wide-ranginground-up of what's happening in China, you
(28:47):
know, you're getting a fantastic curation.OF: Well, thank you so much, Casey.
Thank you, Oscar. I've really enjoyed it.
OF (28:54):
Me too. And before you leave, the last thing is, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview forthe next season of Mosaic of China?
CH (29:02):
I would recommend you interview Eric Liu, who is the CTO of a Chinese tech company called
DIGITWIN Technologies. His company does alot with smart cities, technology, big data.
I should also say that my husband works there,so that's how I know about them. And I think
that, you know, it's an area with so muchpotential. And where China is leading so much
(29:25):
of this technology, it’d be really interestingto talk to him.
OF (29:28):
You had me at ‘Big Data’. Thank you again, Casey.
CH (29:31):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So, the updates. Since we recorded this
episode, the age of Casey's kids are now 6,4 and 2. And as we speak, the family are all
preparing to set off on a summer holiday to云南 [Yúnnán], so hopefully Casey will
be able to cross off a few more destinationsfrom her original list. Also, I realised that
(29:55):
I never actually allowed Casey to reveal theconclusions of her piece about the current
status of the 代购 [dàigòu] trade in China.She let me know that it is still going strong,
and hasn't been killed off by the pandemic.And as for human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu],
they still can't travel to 제주 [Jeju] Islandin Korea, but instead they've been going south
to the Chinese island of 海南 [Hǎinán],where duty-free policies have been relaxed
(30:20):
over the last year.
As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode,there is of course an extra 10-15 minutes
from my conversation with Casey in the PREMIUMversion of the show. Here are a few clips...
[Clip 1]CH: It was kind of like the job that I had
dreamed about at journalism school.[Clip 2]
Meeting people, and talking to people, are the things that I most enjoy about journalism
(30:42):
as a career.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 3]CH: There are red-line topics that you know,
that you can't write about.[Clip 4]
OF (30:48):
But how do you prove anyone exists? CH
Ah. CH
[Clip 5]CH: It will be much harder for a Chinese censor
to pick up the tone of what you're writing.[Clip 6]
CH (30:59):
My mother-in-law, she was like “Nope, not enjoying this at all”.
[End of Audio Clips]
To follow the graphics alongside today's episode,please find us on Instagram or Facebook, or
add me on WeChat at ID (31:08):
mosaicofchina and I'll add to you a group for listeners there.
There's a lot there today, not least beingCasey's object, the Lonely Planet book; her
favourite WeChat sticker of a dweeby ElonMusk; some fashionable girls from 成都 [Chéngdū];
and that amazing mint condition Star Warsposter from 1978 Hong Kong.
(31:32):
And did you notice any of the connectionswith previous episodes of Mosaic of China?
Casey's story about 没办法 [méi bànfǎ]was very similar to that of Wendy Saunders,
the architect from Season 02 Episode 12; herfavourite destination of 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu]
was the same as Sebastien Denes, the diversityand inclusion advocate from Season 01 Episode
(31:53):
11; Casey said she would miss 煎饼 [Jiānbing]if she left China, and so would Lexie Comstock,
the cookie entrepreneur from Season 01 Episode20; she would not however miss Chinese bureaucracy,
and neither would Chang Chihyun, the humanitiesprofessor from Season 02 Episode 03; and finally
(32:15):
Casey's favourite China news source was Sinocism,which was the same answer as Noah Sheldon,
the documentary filmmaker from Season 01 Episode09.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. We're now halfway through
the calendar year of 2021, can you believeit? Coming right up is a catch-up chat with
(32:39):
Vy Vu, the fitness community leader from Season01 Episode 08, and I'll see you again next
time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello to you, Vy
VV (32:58):
Hi, Oscar. OF
are not in Shanghai right now.VV: No, I’m actually now in Ho Chi Minh
City in Vietnam. So sort of have been herefor now over a year.
OF (33:12):
What is the story then? VV
on holidays for CNY. So at that time, didn'tthink that the breakout in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]
was a big deal. But obviously, it wasn't tobe like that. But I had gone on holidays to
Malaysia at the time with my partner. Me andmy partner had at that time being doing a
(33:35):
long distance relationship. So he was alreadyliving in Vietnam. He actually proposed to
me on that holiday, that particular holiday.So…
Oh. Congratulations. VV
decision to make. I had planned on going intoVietnam with him, and then eventually going
back to Shanghai. But it just got to the pointwhere we just… we had to make a decision.
(33:59):
And it was the decision to go into Vietnamnow, already knowing that Vietnam was really
quite strict on closing the borders. So that'swhat's happened. And so I've not been to China
since.OF: That's interesting, because actually,
in my mind, you were in Vietnam on holiday,and you just got stranded there. And actually,
(34:22):
your story is a little bit better than that,because you had already planned to be in Vietnam,
your partner - now fiancé - is in Vietnam,and so your life was there, ready for you
to live it. You just did it a little bit earlywithout any goodbyes, basically.
VV (34:37):
Yes, exactly. So yeah, there was the intention of coming here anyway. And so at this stage,
we had actually never lived together. So itwas a very quick way… it sped up the relationship.
I'm really grateful for this time, becausewhat COVID actually helped me to do was slow
down.OF: Let me interrupt you there, because I
(34:59):
think some people who may not have heard ouroriginal episode, wouldn't know. You had a
job in a French fashion company, and you werealso the Co-Founder - and one of the leaders
- of FitFam, which is a fitness community.VV: Yes.
OF (35:13):
So you were already juggling a hell of a lot. So what actually is the story now?
Are you still with that French company? Andare you still involved with FitFam?
VV (35:21):
So I am still the executive director of FitFam. In December 2019, we actually switched
to virtual workouts anyway. So at the moment,I still lead 3-4 workouts a week. I am no
longer working for the French company, I actuallyhad planned to leave that company anyway.
(35:43):
So I finished up with them in March last year.And now that I'm in Vietnam, I learn Vietnamese
full time.OF: That's great. That's how you make lemonade
out of lemons right there. And FitFam is stillbasically your baby, like I see the passion
in your eyes when you talk about it. Tellme about how FitFam looks today.
(36:04):
So currently, we're in 14 cities, Shanghai, Beijing, 杭州 [Hángzhōu], 苏州 [Sūzhōu]
无锡 [Wúxī] 温州 [Wēnzhōu] 深圳[Shēnzhèn]. And outside Mainland China,
we’ve got Taipei, Hong Kong, Germany, France.U.S., we also have Singapore as well.
OF (36:23):
Can I interrupt you? Because did you actually mention Ho Chi Minh City in that list?
VV (36:27):
No. No, I didn't actually, and I do have a confession to make. And it's why I haven't
started Ho Chi Minh City. So we actually didofficially get married.
OF (36:40):
Congratulations. VV
I had a feeling you were gonna say that. VV
But we’re due in July. And that's why FitFamHo Chi Minh City hasn't quite happened. Because
I, first of all, was unsure of what was goingto happen in the future. And now that we know
(37:03):
what's going to happen in the future, it justmight take a little bit of time. But I do
plan on doing that, at some stage.OF: Wow. And I can quite clearly see the different
chapters, how the Vy before you came to Shanghaididn't really know herself, and then grew
in Shanghai and became the Vy that I knew.And then now, I do see this as being a whole
(37:26):
new story, which, obviously you're still writing.VV: Yeah, I'm interested to see what the future
looks like. I have really missed working fulltime, that interaction of working in teams,
being in and around the apparel industry,and things like that. I really value that
(37:47):
independence.OF: Well, let's see. I have a feeling that
whatever you do, you're going to do it withthe full 120% that is the usual way of Vy
Vu. I'm gonna have to let you go. It's beenwonderful to catch up with you.
VV (38:02):
You too. OF
the person who you recommended for the nextSeason, like you she had a change in her set-up,
and she couldn't end up participating in theproject. But we found a nice replacement.
So I'm going to be releasing this update chatalongside that new replacement. So you know
who is going to be your pseudo-connectionfor Season 02.
(38:27):
Oh, fantastic. OF
with all of your news. Please keep in touch,I hope we see each other again soon.
Thank you so much.
[Trailer]OF: I like it when you say a phrase that has
obviously been translated from Chinese (00:04):
‘Human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu]s’.
CH (00:09):
Yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is with the journalist, CaseyHall. I'm always grateful when a journalist
agrees to talk with me on this podcast, becausethe one thing they all have in common is that
(00:30):
they never want to be the subject of the newsthemselves. The other journalist who has come
on the show before was Eric Olander from Season01 Episode 03, so please check out that episode
if you haven't done so already. Where Casey'sstory differs the most from Eric's is that
Casey's recent focus has been on reportingtrends in lifestyle and consumerism. If you
(00:54):
would like to hear us talk more about herearlier career in news journalism in China,
please subscribe to the PREMIUM version ofthe podcast on Patreon internationally, or
on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] if you're in China.Just head to https://mosaicofchina.com and
follow the links there. Right, on with show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much Casey. I'm here with
(01:17):
Casey Hall. And Casey, what is your title?CH: I'm the Asia Correspondent for The Business
of Fashion.OF: OK. Well, we'll come to that. But before
we do, I wanted to ask you the burning question,which is, what is the object that you've brought
that in some way defines your life here inChina?
It is a vintage copy of my Lonely Planet guide…
OF (01:36):
Ooh. CH
to anybody anymore. A vintage copy of LonelyPlanet in China, in a place that changes so
quickly. It was my gateway to China, initially.When I first came, I was with my friend and
we backpacked around China for three months.And we used our Lonely Planet to decide where
(01:58):
we were going to go. We didn't have a plan,we were just kind of going from one place
to another. And at that time, after readingthrough the whole Lonely Planet guide, I made
a list that was three A4 pages long of allthe places that I wanted to see in China.
And after 13 years, I am more than two pagesthrough, I'm getting there.
Oh right! Well, thank you. And that book opens up such a lot of conversation starters,
(02:23):
one of which being that you are a journalist.And you have written in a similar style, I
would say, to Lonely Planet, in that you tendto focus on society and culture, and things
that have a bridge between China and the outsideworld.
CH (02:37):
Yeah, absolutely. OF
where does your work in journalism start?CH: In Australia. I did a degree in journalism
at RMIT. And after graduating, I went to workfor a commercial TV station. My first job
was answering the phones, answering the news-line.So people would ring in with their story ideas,
and it was my job to decide whether it wasa story or not. Which is great training, it's
(03:01):
a good way to also become a little bit immuneto criticism, and what other people think.
A lot of, you know, not the most stable peoplein the world like to ring into TV stations.
So…OF: Oh.
It was good, though. It had a really good grounding. And I went from there to becoming
a researcher and kind of field producer onthat show. And then after doing that for three
(03:21):
years, my boyfriend at the time - who's nowmy husband - and my best friend had decided
independently that they were both moving toChina. So I thought, maybe that would be the
thing to do. I came with very little expectationsabout what my work life would be like. And
what I found then - and what I think is stilltrue today - is that the English language
(03:41):
media sphere in China is small, and it's transient.So just by virtue of being here for a long
time, I've been able to come across a lotof really great opportunities. Just because,
you know, it's easy to build a network withpeople who want content from China. And I've
been here from 2007 - so, before the Olympics- till today, so it's never been difficult
(04:05):
for me to find work here.OF: Right, absolutely. And I know where you
are today, The Business of Fashion. But that'snot the starting point, is it?
I worked for a magazine that was part of the That's network, it was called ‘News,
Views and Reviews’ (04:19):
‘NVR’. And from there, I went on to become the Managing Editor
of a city lifestyle magazine network, TalkMagazines. There were six magazines around
the country. And as a newcomer to Shanghai,it was a phenomenal way to get to know the
city. You know, it's a way to get to knowevery restaurant, and every shop, and all
(04:40):
these people in the in the community.OF: You're really in the traffic of what's
going on, right?CH: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even then, there
were lots of ‘old China hands’ that weresaying “You came too late. It’s not like
it was in the old days”. And for me, actually,the biggest difference in my China experience
is, after the first four years, I went toschool full-time and studied Chinese. So for
(05:04):
the first four years, I was here, I had survivalChinese. But after studying full-time for
two years, it was like I had been a blindand a deaf person. Writing about a place where
if you're there for a couple of days, youcan write an article; if you're there for
a couple of months, you can write a book;and if you're there for more than a couple
(05:26):
of years, you can't write more than a line.OF: Yes, I've heard it said in different ways,
but that's a very nice one. You see peoplecome in, they fly in for that week, and they
write the article which then goes global.And you must think “Oh god, what do you
know about that, though?”CH: Yeah, I do, when it comes to some things,
for sure. And I think that, in some ways,that tradition is unhelpful to the mutual
(05:49):
understanding of what is happening in China,and the way that people read that outside
of China. So if there's any frustration, itis that. I think, what seems to always be
the stories about China are ‘Big China,Bad China, Weird China’.
OF (06:03):
Yeah. CH
- ‘Big Bad Weird China’ - is not helpful.OF: I've never heard it said so succinctly.
Thank you for being part of this project,which I hope is not ‘Big Bad Weird China’.
Let's go on then, what was the next phase?CH: So I couldn't work full-time, but I had
(06:25):
time in the afternoons where I could startfreelancing. I did that for the next six years,
basically. I’ve not felt particularly limitedin terms of the things that I can cover. My
attitude has always been that there is a waythat you can cover the country in a meaningful
way that is more nuanced, and based more insociety and culture, than it is the top-line
(06:50):
government and what's important to them.OF: Yeah. And that's, I think, the line that
all of us who are in China have to navigate.So who were your client then, during those
times? You say they were international publications.CH: Oh I worked for a lot of different publications.
The Wall Street Journal, Asia, I did somestuff for; The New York Times International
(07:10):
Edition, they have a section called ‘GreatHomes’, and I was doing their Shanghai Great
Homes for them, which was such a fun job.To get to go into people's homes and sticky
beak around, it suits me.OF: Can you think of an example?
CH (07:21):
There are so many. So I saw a lot of great renovated lane houses. It's also about interesting
ways that people live in a space. So one ofthe most interesting ones I did was actually
a warehouse that was at the end of Metro Line3 near the Forest Park. It had been like a
warehouse conversion, basically, like theymade it into a huge kind of apartment.
OF (07:43):
Oh, I'll have to ask you for a photo of that one.
CH (07:46):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. OF
What other ones did you work for?CH: One of the main ones I worked for was
Women's Wear Daily.OF: Women’s Wear Daily?
Yeah. OF
‘WWD’ was a fashion trade publication, they were looking for someone in mainland
China to be their contributor. I mean, I wrotea lot about - and I still do today - I wrote
a lot about the development of China's consumerculture. That's been one of the themes that's
(08:09):
really kind of run through a lot of my work.For example, about the battle between coffee
and tea in China.OF: And this is the new phenomenon of the
tea shops that are kind of using the Starbucksmodel in China, right?
Yeah, exactly. I mean, Starbucks has had phenomenal success in China. But I think that
a lot of people are not necessarily convincedit's because Chinese people love coffee. I
(08:32):
think it has much more to do with having somewhereto meet up with someone; having somewhere
to spend your 15 minute break at work; andsomewhere that's just easy to set up your
laptop. I think those things are probablymore important than the actual coffee product.
OF (08:48):
I see. Yes. And you're right, because I've been to places around China, and then
you see Starbucks, and you walk in, and it'sthis clean quiet environment. Whereas the
outside might be very different. So I guessthat's the kind of atmosphere they're trying
to emulate.CH: Yeah, it's a huge, huge thing here. Hey
Tea is phenomenally successful. And I'm stillwriting about Hey Tea - weirdly, from a kind
(09:11):
of fashion and beauty perspective - becausea lot of these tea companies - 乐乐茶 [LELECHA]
as well - have partnered with beauty brands,and done cross-promotional collaborations.
Which is not something you necessarily seea lot in the West, you know, beauty brands
collaborating with food and beverage. Butin China, it's really a thing. Maybe it's
also because the tea drinks are quite colourful.OF: Yeah.
CH (09:34):
So for example, there was one collaboration that was a peach drink - so it's kind of like,
you know, a pretty orangey-pink colour - witha blush, which is a similar kind of colour.
So in a way, it works more naturally. ButI also think from a consumer point of view,
people are more accepting of it, there areless stringent rules in people's minds about
(09:54):
what is appropriate or not appropriate.OF: Yes, we seem to have got these lines of
convention about certain things. And thenyou go to a different culture, and you don't
have the same history with these conventions.So you can go over the lines, can’t you?
Yeah, I think with China, something I've always loved is the way that people dress
without ‘codes’ in a way. Like, unlessyou went to a very big law firm or something
(10:19):
very very serious, it would be very rare tosee people wearing business attire, in a Western
context. You know, like, that sense of ‘makingit up as you go along’. And it wasn't bound
by what is appropriate in a workplace setting.OF: Well, let's take this chance now to fast-forward
to your life today. So you are the Asia Correspondentof The Business of Fashion. What are you seeing
(10:41):
from that perspective?CH: There have been huge changes, between
generations in China. And generations in Chinaare only five years. People talk about, you
know, the post-80s and post-90s - and thenthe post-95s, and then the post 2000s - as
being vastly different in the way that theythink about things, and the way that they
(11:01):
buy things. You know, I see younger consumersin particular - and I see study after study
backing this up - that there is much moreof a focus on an individual unique identity,
and expressing that in the way that you mightput your clothes together, or you might express
(11:23):
yourself on social media, so that other peoplecan see what kind of person you are. There's
not just one ‘this is good’ and then there'sthe rest; there are so many variants of what
is good, what is cool, what people want tobuy into now.
OF (11:37):
…Which you would say is similar to what fashion and luxury is in the West, right?
Because in the West, you don't wear head-to-toebrands, you are able to mix-and-match it with
‘this is a cheap thing,’ ‘this is somethingI found in a market’, ‘this is something
I found while travelling.’ And then theskill of putting it together is what makes
you fashionable, right?CH: Yeah, ‘the skill of putting together
(11:57):
things that suit your personality, and canmake other people appreciate who you are’,
is what most of us would call a ‘fashionableperson’, I think. And I see it even, not
just across different generations, but acrossdifferent cities in China. I always see girls
from 成都 [Chéngdū] for example, who arejust able to put together a look that another
(12:19):
person would not be able to put together,in a way that looks cohesive and effortless.
But those girls, they have a knack.OF: There's something about 成都 [Chéngdū].
More and more, I'm hearing people say thatif you want to go where there is cool, it's
actually 成都 [Chéngdū], right?CH: Yeah, I would agree with that. I love
成都 [Chéngdū]. The way that people seemto live their lives there. And I'm saying
(12:42):
this as a visitor of a few days. So it's like,going back to what we were saying before,
you know, like it's making a judgement basedon a very limited experience of life there.
But just the way that people's attitude seemsto be very relaxed. And when you go into a
shop, almost universally, when you're leavingpeople will say “慢走 [Mànzǒu]”, like
(13:04):
a ‘travel safely’ kind of send-off. Youknow, you don't hear that in Shanghai.
No, it's all got a little bit too impersonal here, hasn't it?
CH (13:10):
Yeah, Shanghai is a very commercial place. It is a financial centre, and I think that
in any world financial centre that same feeling- that same kind of focus on commerce - does
give it a different kind of sheen.OF: Yes, the idea of wealth has been normalised
here.CH: Yeah, the idea of wealth, and the focus
(13:32):
on it, as a pursuit.OF: And so with that in mind, who actually
is your readership?CH: So I write for the global Business of
Fashion site, which is read by business fashionprofessionals from around the world, who are
interested in the China market. Some of itis quite consultative, like how to approach
(13:54):
China. The most important thing that I offeris an understanding of what is happening,
and how it's important. You know, how peopleare going about their lives, how they're shopping,
using e-commerce, for example, social media.I think those things can be quite difficult
for people to understand, and they are soimportant for doing business in China, for
(14:17):
any segment.OF: Yeah. What do you say about the market
these days, what changes have happened?CH: I spoke to someone quite recently, who
called COVID-19 ‘The Great Accelerator'.And I think that that is a very apt description.
A lot of what I'm writing about - in termsof the trends in the market in China - are
things that were happening anyway. But COVIDreally pushed it to the next level. So for
(14:42):
example, a trend for wellness - and thereforesports, and therefore sportswear, and sports
brands - that’s been happening for quitea long time. But you know, you get a deadly
pandemic on the scene, and that's going toincrease their focus on health and wellness.
The pivot to digital, that was already somethingthat China was doing ahead of other countries,
(15:03):
but Coronavirus really pushed that to thenext level. Also, I think that there has been
a pride in China and how it has handled COVID-19,and so I think that that represents an opportunity
for domestic brands that might not have beenas popular. The change in that mentality has
been accelerated by COVID as well. And finally,I mean, I was recently writing about the 代购
(15:28):
[dàigòu] trade.OF: 代购 [Dàigòu], what’s that?
It’s surrogate shoppers. 代购 [Dàigòu] has traditionally been a big part of China's
luxury industry. People who are either studentsliving overseas - or people working overseas,
or people travelling overseas - buying andand reselling luxury products or beauty products
back to China. There's a huge trade comingout of Korea.
OF (15:49):
Yes, of course. Because when I go to Korea - or even other parts of the world - you see
a lot of Chinese tourists at these luxurymalls. So these malls aren't for the local
market at all, they’re for the travellingChinese.
CH (15:59):
Yeah. I think I'm right in saying that in 2019, Chinese travellers took 150 million
outbound trips.OF: Woah, yeah.
So there are a lot of Chinese travellers who are travelling around the world, and buying
luxury products while they're outside. Butthen there's a professional element, the 代购
[dàigòu] who sell to their contacts in China,often via WeChat, and send them back. Or in
(16:22):
the case of Korea - 제주 [Jeju] Island isa duty free island that's very, very close
to China - they are ‘human-flesh 代购[dàigòu],’ so they themselves bring suitcases
of duty free stuff back, and resell it inChina.
OF (16:35):
I like it when you say a phrase that has obviously been translated from Chinese
代购 [dàigòu]s’.CH: Yes, ‘human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu]’.
The pandemic has really, obviously, affectedthis industry.
Right. CH
pop over to Korea and pick up a suitcase abeauty products.
Right. CH
whether it might be the end of this traditionof 代购 [dàigòu], which is accountable
(16:58):
for a large percentage of luxury purchasesfrom Chinese consumers.
Right, so I guess the foreign brands that you write for, they would rely on these 代购
[dàigòu]s for a lot of their sales.CH: Yeah, absolutely they do. And that's an
uncomfortable situation, I think, for a lotof foreign brands. Because brands don't love
a grey market. A grey market lessens theircontrol over the messaging, it lessens their
(17:24):
direct relationship with their customers.OF: Right, so you mean that the company can
do all its marketing in China. But then ifthe products are purchased overseas, the marketing
department for the China office of the branddoesn't know if their marketing was successful
or not. Because the shopper in China has actuallypurchased it from a whole different market.
CH (17:41):
They’ve purchased it from a whole different market, and they’ve purchased it after seeing
the photos that have been supplied by the代购 [dàigòu], not by the brand.
OF (17:49):
Oh. CH
images. It's what works for a 代购 [dàigòu],but it's not something that a brand would
necessarily like to see as their marketingimages.
Right. CH
like personal shoppers. Like, they have arelationship with their group of clients.
And they're really trusted. Like, they’realmost like mini-influencers within their
(18:12):
own groups. And so they have a lot of powerand influence over what people buy.
Fascinating. So it's not just parallel importing, it's parallel branding.
CH (18:20):
It is. And brands don't love it on the whole, but there is definitely an opportunity
in kind of, you know, you've got…OF: Harnessing the 代购 [dàigòu] as an
influencer, yeah.CH: Yeah. I mean, it's different than working
with another kind of influencer. But if youwere a small brand, and you wanted to seed
some interest in your brand, then I thinkthat people could do worse than trying to
(18:42):
tap into a 代购 [dàigòu] network, becausethey already have such influence. In 2020,
especially in a year in which sales are harderto come by, the loss of 代购 [dàigòu]
sales can be significant to a company. I mean,a lot of companies are really working hard
to pivot their sales to a re-shoring withinChina. And that's been happening, you know,
there's been a huge bounce for a lot of luxuryplayers in terms of their in-China sales.
OF (19:05):
Right. CH
losing from the Chinese sales overseas isan open question, so I would say it's very
unlikely to make up the whole amount.OF: Well, thank you. For someone who evidently
does not understand fashion - just take onelook at me - you’ve made it very, very interesting.
(19:26):
Thank you so much for that.CH: Any time.
Let’s move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, we're onto Part 2.
CH (19:37):
OK. OF
fact?CH: Big numbers in China. I think as a Chinese
language learner - I don't know whether you'vehad the same thing, but - big numbers are
the hardest thing for me.OF: Yeah.
The way that Chinese people organise big numbers is by tens of thousands, and then
by hundreds of millions, which is not a naturalthing for an English speaker to be able to
(20:03):
translate directly. So I will write down anumber - and have to put all the zeros, and
then count back, and do a comma after everythree zeros - in order to be able to do it.
And my Chinese friends do the same thing whenthey hear English big numbers.
OF (20:16):
Yes. CH
zeros…OF: Yes
CH (20:19):
…So that they can understand it. OF
who doesn't know the numbering system, basicallywe would have one comma and then three naughts,
for 1,000. But they would have one comma followedby four naughts [1,0000] for 10,000, right?
Yeah. OF
(20:39):
word or phrase in Chinese?CH: I do. It's not one you come across very
often.OF: Oh.
So I think for a lot of foreigners, a phrase that would be very frustrating is ‘没办法
[méi bànfǎ]’.OF: 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ].
Which means 'there's no way, no method, no way of doing something’. And I have - in
a few times in my life - come across someonewho, instead of saying “没办法 [Méi
(21:00):
bànfǎ]” says "想一个办法 [Xiǎngyīgè bànfǎ]”, ‘I'll think of a way’.
OF (21:02):
Oh, 想一个办法 [Xiǎng yīgè bànfǎ].” CH
Oh, that's great. That really turns it around.
CH (21:09):
Yeah. And it's happened to me a few times where you would expect someone to shrug their
shoulders and say “没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]”but they've gone the other way, and really
surprised me. And so I think it's becauseit pops up in these situations where I'm least
expecting it that it’s my favourite favouritephrase to hear.
OF (21:25):
Oh, I love it. Because the ‘没办法 [méi bànfǎ]’ has such a resignation about
it. And it's just like “Don't even try,just forget it”. And it seems so final.
So yeah, I love that.CH: Yeah, the first time I ever came across
it was, I was trying to park my bike in acrowded bike parking space. And I looked at
the bike parking attendant basically like“Is there a way I could do this?” And
(21:45):
he said “我想一个办法 [Wǒ xiǎngyīgè bànfǎ].” And I said “Thank you”.
Oh, wow, I want to hug that guy. CH
Yeah. Great. Next, what is your favourite destination within China? And I'm looking
at that book still in front of us, and thething you said about having three pieces of
paper.CH: Yeah, I've been able to knock over quite
a few now. There are still quite a lot ofplaces in the south - in 云南 [Yúnnán]
(22:10):
Province - that I haven't been able to getto. So that's where a lot of my final piece
of paper is concentrated on. I do love 四川[Sìchuān] Province. Many years ago, I went
to 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu] National Park,which is just one of the most spectacular
places I've ever seen. A few years after Iwent, there was a major earthquake, which
(22:32):
damaged the park. And I would be very interestedto go back and see what it looks like now,
and see how different it is.OF: Yeah. Next question, if you left China,
what would you miss the most, and what wouldyou miss the least?
CH (22:43):
煎饼 [Jiānbing]. I’ve said for so many years that people should be exporting
煎饼 [jiānbing] into the West, becausewe foreigners all love that stuff. And it's
a wonderful hangover cure.OF: And how about the things that you wouldn't
miss?CH: I think I would not miss the level of
bureaucracy. If I never had to go to a Chinesebank again, I would be a happy chappy.
OF (23:04):
You have to take a whole file of paperwork, don’t you?
CH (23:06):
You have to take a whole file of paperwork, and half a day, and even then I'll probably
have to go home and get more paperwork.OF: Yep. Is there anything that still surprises
you about life in China?CH: I'm going to answer this in a little bit
of a less light-hearted way. I think thatfor my husband and I - who have been here
for such a long time - one of the things thatwe would say has been a surprise, over the
(23:29):
entire time we've been here, is that we don'thave that many close Chinese friends. And
we have some - and some wonderful, wonderfulfriends - but there is still a difficulty,
I think, with forming widespread meaningfulrelationships between foreigners and Chinese
people. My communication skills are quitegood, I can speak Chinese quite well, I feel
like it's not a language barrier. It is muchmore of a cultural barrier that is difficult
(23:54):
to overcome. I guess I thought that over time,it would become easier. But in many ways it
doesn't. Like, it’s easy to have a lot ofacquaintances, but a kind of more deeper-level
relationship with Chinese people, we’vefound really hard to execute.
OF (24:08):
Yes, I agree with you. I think there are a number of reasons for that. I think Shanghai
being a big imposing city is one of thosereasons. It would be the same if you were
in London, you know, if you were in London,you would gravitate towards other non-Londoners
basically.CH: True.
Because a lot of people in London would have friends since they were at school, and
(24:29):
they're not interested necessarily in newbies,who may be transient and might leave.
CH (24:33):
Yeah. OF
yeah, what you say is true. And it is somethingwhich I see especially with people who are
in relationships with other foreigners. Ithink if you have one of you who is Chinese,
then just naturally you tend to hang aroundwith more people who are Chinese. And it just
is a little bit more difficult when both ofyou are non-Chinese.
(24:54):
I think that it's very fair to say. OF
I don't know. I don't know. And it's something that has been, for a long time, something
that was surprising to both of us.OF: Yeah. Next question, where is your favourite
place to go, to eat or drink or just hangout?
This is a question that's changed quite a lot since we had children. We have three
(25:16):
little girls who are five and three and one.And gosh, so much of our leisure time now
is spent just doing kid-related stuff. I havealways hated malls my entire life, and I spend
so much time in malls now. I can't say it'smy favourite place still to be, but it's an
awfully convenient place to get some kid-relatedactivities. And in a place like Shanghai for
(25:38):
example - where the weather's not always good,the air quality is not always good - also
very convenient. Oh, where do I love? I mean,just this morning I was at Shanghailander
café in 五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù]. I justlove being there.
OF (25:52):
That’s quite a new one, right? CH
sometimes. But to be honest with you, I gothere more when I just want to have like a
little break from everything. I started knittinglast year as a hobby. And at least once a
week I like to go to Shanghailander café,and drink a flat white, and spend an hour
(26:13):
knitting and listening to a podcast. You know,it's not the most exciting life I lead, but
that's my self-care.OF: Oh I like it. What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?CH: If it's Greater China, the absolute best
gift that I've ever given anyone was an originalStar Wars poster - that was in a cinema in
(26:35):
Hong Kong in 1978 - of the first Star Warsmovie. My husband loves Star Wars, and his
parents met and married in Hong Kong. I lovedgiving it to him. And I told him months and
months ahead of Christmas that I got him thebest present ever in the history of the world.
And he was like “You might want to manageexpectations a little bit. You're building
it up a lot”. I said “I'm so confidentthat this is the greatest present that anyone
(26:57):
has given anyone”. I will take a photo foryou.
Yes, please. Next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, send it to me
now.CH: It is a sticker of Elon Musk on stage
in Shanghai doing a really awkward dad dance,looking like a bit of a tool. The reason that
(27:17):
I like this sticker so much is that I useit in so many different contexts.
Oh. CH
“Yay". I also use it as like “Well, thatwas weird”. I also use it when I want to
say that something's failed. It's the onesticker that can mean so many things.
(27:41):
Oh, you're right. It's like a blank canvas upon which you can put whatever emotion you're
feeling.CH: Exactly. And you might not realise it
at first glance, but you can use it in 100different scenarios.
Yes, I see that. Amazing. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
CH (27:58):
These days, I've become a lot more au fait with Disney songs over the last couple
of years. So I could bang out any number ofDisney classics right now at karaoke. And…
OF (28:08):
In Chinese even? Let it go… CH
[Suí tā ba]” Yep. I don't know any ofthe other words aside from “随它吧 [Suí
tā ba].”OF: That’s good enough. And finally, what
other China-related news sources do you relyon?
CH (28:22):
Because of my work, I get a lot of newspaper subscriptions paid for, which is great. But
there is one that I pay for myself, whichI feel like is a glowing endorsement of how
important I find it, if I'm willing to forkover money for it. It's called Sinocism, Bill
Bishop’s?OF: Oh yes, yes.
So I pay an annual fee for that. And I open it every day, and read it every day.
Because it just gives such a wide-ranginground-up of what's happening in China, you
(28:47):
know, you're getting a fantastic curation.OF: Well, thank you so much, Casey.
Thank you, Oscar. I've really enjoyed it.
OF (28:54):
Me too. And before you leave, the last thing is, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview forthe next season of Mosaic of China?
CH (29:02):
I would recommend you interview Eric Liu, who is the CTO of a Chinese tech company called
DIGITWIN Technologies. His company does alot with smart cities, technology, big data.
I should also say that my husband works there,so that's how I know about them. And I think
that, you know, it's an area with so muchpotential. And where China is leading so much
(29:25):
of this technology, it’d be really interestingto talk to him.
OF (29:28):
You had me at ‘Big Data’. Thank you again, Casey.
CH (29:31):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So, the updates. Since we recorded this
episode, the age of Casey's kids are now 6,4 and 2. And as we speak, the family are all
preparing to set off on a summer holiday to云南 [Yúnnán], so hopefully Casey will
be able to cross off a few more destinationsfrom her original list. Also, I realised that
(29:55):
I never actually allowed Casey to reveal theconclusions of her piece about the current
status of the 代购 [dàigòu] trade in China.She let me know that it is still going strong,
and hasn't been killed off by the pandemic.And as for human-flesh 代购 [dàigòu],
they still can't travel to 제주 [Jeju] Islandin Korea, but instead they've been going south
to the Chinese island of 海南 [Hǎinán],where duty-free policies have been relaxed
(30:20):
over the last year.
As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode,there is of course an extra 10-15 minutes
from my conversation with Casey in the PREMIUMversion of the show. Here are a few clips...
[Clip 1]CH: It was kind of like the job that I had
dreamed about at journalism school.[Clip 2]
Meeting people, and talking to people, are the things that I most enjoy about journalism
(30:42):
as a career.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 3]CH: There are red-line topics that you know,
that you can't write about.[Clip 4]
OF (30:48):
But how do you prove anyone exists? CH
Ah. CH
[Clip 5]CH: It will be much harder for a Chinese censor
to pick up the tone of what you're writing.[Clip 6]
CH (30:59):
My mother-in-law, she was like “Nope, not enjoying this at all”.
[End of Audio Clips]
To follow the graphics alongside today's episode,please find us on Instagram or Facebook, or
add me on WeChat at ID (31:08):
mosaicofchina and I'll add to you a group for listeners there.
There's a lot there today, not least beingCasey's object, the Lonely Planet book; her
favourite WeChat sticker of a dweeby ElonMusk; some fashionable girls from 成都 [Chéngdū];
and that amazing mint condition Star Warsposter from 1978 Hong Kong.
(31:32):
And did you notice any of the connectionswith previous episodes of Mosaic of China?
Casey's story about 没办法 [méi bànfǎ]was very similar to that of Wendy Saunders,
the architect from Season 02 Episode 12; herfavourite destination of 九寨沟 [Jiǔzhàigōu]
was the same as Sebastien Denes, the diversityand inclusion advocate from Season 01 Episode
(31:53):
11; Casey said she would miss 煎饼 [Jiānbing]if she left China, and so would Lexie Comstock,
the cookie entrepreneur from Season 01 Episode20; she would not however miss Chinese bureaucracy,
and neither would Chang Chihyun, the humanitiesprofessor from Season 02 Episode 03; and finally
(32:15):
Casey's favourite China news source was Sinocism,which was the same answer as Noah Sheldon,
the documentary filmmaker from Season 01 Episode09.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. We're now halfway through
the calendar year of 2021, can you believeit? Coming right up is a catch-up chat with
(32:39):
Vy Vu, the fitness community leader from Season01 Episode 08, and I'll see you again next
time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello to you, Vy
VV (32:58):
Hi, Oscar. OF
are not in Shanghai right now.VV: No, I’m actually now in Ho Chi Minh
City in Vietnam. So sort of have been herefor now over a year.
OF (33:12):
What is the story then? VV
on holidays for CNY. So at that time, didn'tthink that the breakout in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]
was a big deal. But obviously, it wasn't tobe like that. But I had gone on holidays to
Malaysia at the time with my partner. Me andmy partner had at that time being doing a
(33:35):
long distance relationship. So he was alreadyliving in Vietnam. He actually proposed to
me on that holiday, that particular holiday.So…
Oh. Congratulations. VV
decision to make. I had planned on going intoVietnam with him, and then eventually going
back to Shanghai. But it just got to the pointwhere we just… we had to make a decision.
(33:59):
And it was the decision to go into Vietnamnow, already knowing that Vietnam was really
quite strict on closing the borders. So that'swhat's happened. And so I've not been to China
since.OF: That's interesting, because actually,
in my mind, you were in Vietnam on holiday,and you just got stranded there. And actually,
(34:22):
your story is a little bit better than that,because you had already planned to be in Vietnam,
your partner - now fiancé - is in Vietnam,and so your life was there, ready for you
to live it. You just did it a little bit earlywithout any goodbyes, basically.
VV (34:37):
Yes, exactly. So yeah, there was the intention of coming here anyway. And so at this stage,
we had actually never lived together. So itwas a very quick way… it sped up the relationship.
I'm really grateful for this time, becausewhat COVID actually helped me to do was slow
down.OF: Let me interrupt you there, because I
(34:59):
think some people who may not have heard ouroriginal episode, wouldn't know. You had a
job in a French fashion company, and you werealso the Co-Founder - and one of the leaders
- of FitFam, which is a fitness community.VV: Yes.
OF (35:13):
So you were already juggling a hell of a lot. So what actually is the story now?
Are you still with that French company? Andare you still involved with FitFam?
VV (35:21):
So I am still the executive director of FitFam. In December 2019, we actually switched
to virtual workouts anyway. So at the moment,I still lead 3-4 workouts a week. I am no
longer working for the French company, I actuallyhad planned to leave that company anyway.
(35:43):
So I finished up with them in March last year.And now that I'm in Vietnam, I learn Vietnamese
full time.OF: That's great. That's how you make lemonade
out of lemons right there. And FitFam is stillbasically your baby, like I see the passion
in your eyes when you talk about it. Tellme about how FitFam looks today.
(36:04):
So currently, we're in 14 cities, Shanghai, Beijing, 杭州 [Hángzhōu], 苏州 [Sūzhōu]
无锡 [Wúxī] 温州 [Wēnzhōu] 深圳[Shēnzhèn]. And outside Mainland China,
we’ve got Taipei, Hong Kong, Germany, France.U.S., we also have Singapore as well.
OF (36:23):
Can I interrupt you? Because did you actually mention Ho Chi Minh City in that list?
VV (36:27):
No. No, I didn't actually, and I do have a confession to make. And it's why I haven't
started Ho Chi Minh City. So we actually didofficially get married.
OF (36:40):
Congratulations. VV
I had a feeling you were gonna say that. VV
But we’re due in July. And that's why FitFamHo Chi Minh City hasn't quite happened. Because
I, first of all, was unsure of what was goingto happen in the future. And now that we know
(37:03):
what's going to happen in the future, it justmight take a little bit of time. But I do
plan on doing that, at some stage.OF: Wow. And I can quite clearly see the different
chapters, how the Vy before you came to Shanghaididn't really know herself, and then grew
in Shanghai and became the Vy that I knew.And then now, I do see this as being a whole
(37:26):
new story, which, obviously you're still writing.VV: Yeah, I'm interested to see what the future
looks like. I have really missed working fulltime, that interaction of working in teams,
being in and around the apparel industry,and things like that. I really value that
(37:47):
independence.OF: Well, let's see. I have a feeling that
whatever you do, you're going to do it withthe full 120% that is the usual way of Vy
Vu. I'm gonna have to let you go. It's beenwonderful to catch up with you.
VV (38:02):
You too. OF
the person who you recommended for the nextSeason, like you she had a change in her set-up,
and she couldn't end up participating in theproject. But we found a nice replacement.
So I'm going to be releasing this update chatalongside that new replacement. So you know
who is going to be your pseudo-connectionfor Season 02.
(38:27):
Oh, fantastic. OF
with all of your news. Please keep in touch,I hope we see each other again soon.
Thank you so much.
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