September 12, 2022 • 44 mins
When you think of an alcoholic drink that’s made out of traditional Chinese ingredients, you might not immediately think of… gin. But that’s exactly what came to the mind of Fergus Woodward six years ago when he helped to create Peddlers Gin, China's first and leading craft gin brand.
Today’s episode takes us through Fergus’ story of discovery and distillation, one that has resulted in a gin that proudly showcases both the unique botanicals of China, and the unique persistence of the team behind it.
The episode also includes a catch-up interview with:
Sean Harmon from Season 02 Episode 09
https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-09-sean-harmon
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
02:26 - Part 1
23:04 - Part 2
36:21 - Outro
39:48 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at:
https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-03-fergus-woodward
Join the community:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: What the hell is that?
FW (00:03):
Man, they’re a crazy fruit. OF
It’s a fruit.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So in the first episode of Season 03 we hadthe interview with the technologist Eric LIU,
(00:25):
which was recorded in the JustPod studio.Then last week was the comic book store owner
Ashley HUANG, which was recorded on the road,in a hotel room in 成都 [Chéngdū]. And
for contrast, today’s episode was recordedin my apartment in Shanghai, which usually
happens when we can’t align the scheduleof the guest with the availability of the
(00:47):
studio. What also usually happens in thesecircumstances is that we have some fun background
noise issues thanks to the general goings-onin the lane where I live. So today’s symphonic
accompaniment is a circular saw concerto inthe key of [闭嘴 [bìzuǐ]!
Luckily, these background noises didn’tfaze my guest Fergus Woodward, one of the
(01:11):
founders of Peddlers Gin, who you’ll findhas a super low-key conversation style. Fergus
is also a Kiwi, and I don’t really noticehis accent, but I spent a loooong time fixing
the transcript for today’s episode, whichwas initially generated by an AI programme
that has no concept of the New Zealand accent.So this experience alone reminds me to point
(01:37):
non-native speakers to the Mosaic of Chinawebsite to follow the transcript, in case
you’re confused about pen versus pin, setversus sit, and Jen versus gin. I’m very
sorry to that poor girl Jen, I needed to totallyeradicate her from the transcript of today’s
episode.
(01:58):
Just to balance things out, a quick word fornon-Chinese speakers. At one point in today’s
interview we talk about developing 关系[guānxì]. That’s the process of building
relationships, particularly when it comesto business connections. And we also mention
白酒 [báijiǔ], which is the classic ‘whiteliquor’ spirit that is drunk in China.
(02:21):
Alright we’ve downed the apéritif, let’sget on with today’s show.
[Part 1]OF: Hello Fergus.
Hey, Oscar. OF
into your energy, which is very chill, whichI appreciate. Before we start, tell me briefly,
what do you do in China?FW: So I started a company called Peddlers
(02:43):
Gin. And now I sell gin around China, andalso around Asia Pacific.
OF (02:48):
OK. And before we go into that story, what is the object that you've brought that
in some way typifies your life in China?FW: So, a little pin from the drinks awards.
Oh, I see. FW
the F&B community. Usually it's Asia, butover the last two years, it's been China.
(03:09):
Organised by DRiNK Magazine, and Thirsty WorkProductions, which is headed up by a lovely
chap called Theo. It's an annual celebrationof all things F&B in China. And F&B has been
such a really big part of my life here inChina. Obviously with my company, and then
you know the community is great. And we'vebeen lucky enough to win a few things at that,
(03:33):
which is great. Most of the awards are forbars, so sort of like ‘Best Bar’, ‘Best
Bartender’. I think it's a really nice wayof celebrating the community. Whether or not
you agree with where the awards go is alwaysa different discussion. But I think just having
an event is really important. So I think thatthey do a really good job.
And the pin itself, is that a stylised bunch of grapes? Is that what they’re going
(03:55):
for?FW: It's a stylised cocktail shaker.
Oh, no, I see it now. FW
on, for example, your apron.OF: I see.
FW (04:03):
For example, like if you went to a bar, often a bar will have pins. And they'll give
them to guest bartenders who come. And it'sjust a way of reflecting your involvement.
OF (04:12):
OK. Is this actually a thing, then? Should I now start to keep my eyes open and looking
out for people wearing pins in bars?FW: Well, I think if you look at the bartender,
there's a high chance that there'll be wearinga pin of some sort.
Is that right? FW
OK. And this is a China thing, or this is an international thing.
FW (04:27):
I'm not actually sure. It's certainly something in China. And the China and Asia
bartending community is really tight, whichI really admire. It is a community. A lot
of people know each other. There's a lot oftravel in between cities. Overseas, it's probably
to a lesser extent.OF: Right. I'm quite glad you answered in
(04:48):
that way, where you said “I'm not quitesure what happens outside of this region”.
Because what you're saying to me is that basically,this is a Chinese brand.
Yeah. OF
basics about how you started the company inShanghai. What was that story?
I've been in China for about seven years. And the first part of that was at Fudan University.
(05:09):
And I was doing a master's degree in businessmanagement. I really enjoy trying new things,
and to me, Shanghai was sort of part of that.OF: When I think about Kiwis, they're always
bungee jumping, or mountain biking or…FW: Heaps of bungee jumping, Oscar. We just
bungee jump any chance we get.OF: In fact your hair is tussled, I'm sure
you just came from a bungee right now.FW: Yeah, there's a lot of bungee jumping(!).
(05:32):
Er, there is quite a lot of outdoor activitiesin New Zealand. So there's a lot of hunting,
surfing, snowboarding, skiing, there is alot of that. I think it gets amplified because
that's also our tourism industry.OF: Right.
So when people are telling stories overseas about what New Zealand is, it's very meshed
in with our tourism pitch.OF: So I've just bought into the PR.
(05:55):
Yeah, that’s alright though. It's better than Lord of the Rings.
OF (05:59):
Well, let's not even dwell on that one second longer. Let's move on. So you were
here, you were studying, you were checkingout the F&B scene…
FW (06:07):
Yeah. And there were amazing craft beers being made in China, and in Shanghai. Also,
at the same time, there's amazing ingredientsand cuisine from all around China.
OF (06:20):
When it comes to craft beer, that's the connection between the person who referred
you to the podcast from last season.FW: Oh yeah, Sean.
Sean Harmon. So why don't I play to you what Sean said about you.
[Start of Audio Clip]Sean HARMON: I think a really cool story is
the story of Peddlers Gin Company. A friendof mine is a Co-Founder there, Fergus. They're
creating something I think is really impressive,it’s a great quality product. It'd be a
(06:43):
cool story, I think, for everyone to learn.[End of Audio Clip]
FW (06:46):
I think I met Sean, through a mutual friend on the rooftop of Mexican bar.
OF (06:52):
You suddenly went very hazy. FW
[Jìng'ān] I'm pretty sure, drinking margaritas.OF: OK.
FW (07:02):
Yeah. OF
the main out-of-the-box drink option in Chinaat that point?
Yeah it was. Which was actually really interesting, because there was no craft premium
Chinese-made spirit. And to me, it sort offelt natural that there should be. And gin
was really cool because as a spirit, it givesyou an opportunity to use a lot of different
(07:25):
ingredients. Juniper is your main ingredientfor gin, but you can also include any number
of other ingredients. So as a medium for reflectingyour origin story, it meant we could use 四川
[Sìchuān] pepper, it meant we could useBuddha's hand, and lotus, and things like
that.OF: OK. Well, why don't we, in that case,
(07:46):
talk about how you make gin.FW: Yeah sure.
OF (07:48):
Because I understand that with gin, you use a still. It’s a distilling process rather
than a brewing process.FW: Yeah.
I know that these are words, but I don't quite know what they mean. Like, what is the
process of making gin?FW: The place where gin would start would
be - sort of like a beer, basically - youfind something and you ferment it. So it'd
be like corn, or barley or wheat.OF: Oh actually you can have different bases
(08:12):
for gin, can you?FW: Yeah, you can have a different base spirit.
Oh right. FW
and yeast, and that picks up an alcohol contentlevel. And then you take all of that, and
then you put it into a column still, and youdistil that many many times. You just heat
it up, and the alcohol boils before the water.You keep it in a tank, you discard the water,
(08:36):
and then you put that alcohol back into thestill, and you would re-distil it.
I see. FW
content to ideally 90-95% pure alcohol.OF: Right.
FW (08:47):
You need to do that a number of times. And it also strips the undesirable elements
of alcohol, including the real bad stuff likemethanol, which is an alcoholic compound that
forms at the same time when you ferment something.But that's the one that makes you go blind.
OF (09:05):
Oh. Not ideal. FW
moonshine, or something like that…OF: Yes.
FW (09:10):
…Then that's what it is. It means that they have fermented something, and they haven't
done it in a way where they've taken the methanoloff.
OF (09:17):
Right. This is now making me a bit scared when you're starting up your own brand, right?
I'm just imagining you in a shed doing it,and like, “Has it got methanol? Let me just
taste it. Yeah, a bit too much methanol inthat one.”
FW (09:29):
No, there are ways that you can make it very safe.
OF (09:32):
Presumably you can measure it. Like, there are gauges, or..?
FW (09:35):
Yeah, as long as you understand what you're doing, there's no problem getting rid of it.
OF (09:39):
OK. FW
that point, you select your ingredients. Youwould put them all together into a tank - including
juniper and the earthier ingredients likeliquorice, angelica, cinnamon - and then you
would distil it again. And then that comesout basically tasting of gin. The second time
around, we vapour infuse. Which means thatwe've got what's called a gin basket.
(10:03):
I've seen them, yeah. It's like a tea bag in a tea pot.
FW (10:08):
Yeah, but it's not in the liquid, it’s above it.
OF (10:11):
Oh, I see. FW
comes off. And into that we put Buddha's hand,East Asian mint, and 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper
is definitely like a ‘hero ingredient’.The reason for that - this took so much trial
and error to figure this out - is that thoseingredients are a little bit lighter. And
so if you put them into the pot, then theydegrade really rapidly. And the end-lifecycle
(10:37):
of a mint after it's been boiled in alcoholfor eight hours… You know, it's not tasting
any good at the end of that.OF: Right.
FW (10:45):
So that process picks up some slightly more delicate flavours. And then you would
cut that with water - because it's come outat a very high percentage ABV - to anywhere
between 38-50%, wherever you want it. Andthat's gin. Yeah.
OF (10:58):
You mentioned the phrase ‘hero ingredient’ - that was in the context of 四川 [Sìchuān]
pepper - what do you mean by ‘hero ingredient’?FW: We sort of mean ingredients that we really
like the taste profile of, we think they havea super cool story, and we wanted to include
in the gin. Because being able to reflectsome of the flavours and botanicals of China
(11:18):
was one of the reasons why we started thecompany. And so 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper
was one of those. And the other one I mentionedwas Buddha’s hand, which is…
What the hell is that? FW
Oh it’s a fruit. FW
OK. FW
[Yúnnán]. And it is super ugly. And thereason it's called a Buddha's hand is because
(11:41):
it kind of looks like somebody's fingers allpressed together.
What's the Chinese word for it, do you know?
FW (11:47):
佛手 [Fóshǒu]. OF
a translation of the Chinese.FW: Yeah.
OF (11:51):
Is this well known? I lived in China now for eight years, I don't think I've heard
of it before.FW: It's not, no. It’s a really uncommon
fruit. And that's because it's gott no pulp.It's all rind.
Oh, god. FW
you would have zero use for it.OF: In China, is it used for anything?
FW (12:09):
It's used for teas. OF
And like, TCM. OF
Yeah. But it's, really really aromatic. So it smells amazing. It smells like a cross
between sort of like a lime and a rose. It’sbeautiful
OF (12:23):
Is it all over 云南 [Yúnnán], or is it in a certain part?
FW (12:25):
It's pretty widespread, yeah. But it's not very common at all overseas.
OF (12:29):
No. FW
the early 2000s.OF: Isn't it funny. It reminds me of the craze
for goji berries at one point.FW: Yeah, yeah.
Right? And suddenly everyone knows about goji berries. Whereas before it was really
just in this one small part of China thatthey knew about it. I wonder if Buddha's hand
is going to have a similar kind of discoveryand Renaissance?
FW (12:51):
Yeah, finding ways to use it is more complicated than with like a typical citrus fruit.
OF (12:56):
Yes. FW
the peel is the most useful part for distilling.Because it holds its texture better when it's
exposed to high heat and alcohol. So it givesoff flavour for longer, and doesn't really
turn to a mush as quickly.OF: OK.
FW (13:12):
So it's perfect for gin. OF
a flavour, as a fruit? When you were thinkingabout what ingredients, where did this come
from?FW: The inspiration for that… I mean, we
spent a really long time on recipe development.And there was a lot of travel around China
to find them.OF: I'm going to interrupt you there. Because
(13:32):
all the while you've been saying “We.”So who is ‘we’?
Yeah, so when we first kicked off it was sort of me and a couple of friends.
OF (13:39):
All Kiwis? FW
expanded to include local Chinese.OF: And your role in that group was what exactly?
FW (13:48):
Well at the start there was not really a whole lot of differentiation.
OF (13:51):
Yes. FW
Yes. FW
Oh, I see. OK. Well back then, then. When you were working out the flavours…
FW (14:03):
Yeah, we spent a lot of time travelling on long-distance trains.
OF (14:08):
I'm assuming not business class. FW
slow trains that we could find.OF: Oh. But at this point, you weren't sourcing,
you were just experimenting with flavours.You would just go to a farm and say “Can
I taste something?” Or what?FW: Yeah, and you would taste something and
then you'd potentially think that it was anice ingredient. But the supplier that you
(14:32):
got it from, the level of quality wasn't goodenough.
Oh, so you were going to individual suppliers themselves. It wasn't just going to local
markets, and seeing what flavours you couldfind.
FW (14:41):
There was a bit of both. OF
Yeah. OF
you find a supplier for, let's say, 四川[Sìchuān] pepper.
So 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper was a really fun one actually, we've got a really good
relationship with several farms in 四川[Sìchuān] in a place called 汉源 [Hànyuán]
county. There are a lot of pepper farms aroundthere, and they're beautiful. And harvest
(15:02):
is around August. Historically, it has beenvery famous for producing very high quality
四川 [Sìchuān] pepper. A really nice 四川[Sìchuān] pepper is pretty light, citrusy.
And that's not the case with all 四川 [Sìchuān]pepper.
OF (15:17):
A-hah. FW
[Sìchuān] peppers. I’ve spent a lot oftime in random warehouses in the middle of
nowhere with a numb tongue. Just the persistencein really getting to that final farm was really
just following up leads that you thought wouldbe totally useless, or randomly talking with
somebody at a bar…OF: Yeah, I mean, that actually makes sense.
(15:40):
Because you go out, you talk to somebody ina bar, they recommend someone, they know someone.
FW (15:44):
Yeah. OF
after all, not by cold calling and sendingmessages. I mean, that's how I imagined it
would have had to have worked.FW: Yeah, there's a lot of that, meeting people
and asking who they knew. And someone hasa cousin who knows someone in that area. And
they ignore you, but maybe somebody else doesn't.OF: Right. I'm assuming that they wouldn't
(16:05):
really have a clue what gin was, at that point.FW: No. No, not at all.
OF (16:09):
And even now, maybe some don’t. FW
he has tried the product. But he still hasno idea what gin is.
Well what is the market for gin in China? We heard, last season, Sean Harmon’s story.
Like, there is an understanding about whatbeer is. And then from his side, he needs
to educate the market about what a craft beeris, and why that's a premium product versus
(16:34):
what they can get in a ‘Snow’ brand beer.When it comes to gin, what is the process
of education in the market?FW: Gin, it's similar to beer, but it started
from a much smaller base. In Tier One cities,for a long time. gin has been around. But
it’s a very small part of what a Chineseconsumer would be drinking on a weekly basis.
(16:57):
It's like very very small. 98% of all spiritssold in China is by 白酒 [báijiǔ].
Right, 98. FW
of where gin would sit.OF: Yeah, so you have to share the remaining
2% with everything else.FW: Yeah, whisky and cognac are both really
big categories. Vodka would probably be next.And then possibly gin. OF: Woohoo.
FW (17:19):
Yeah, we might have made it onto that. I think the trend in China has been that people
are drinking 白酒 [báijiǔ] less. It'snot a drink which is like as appealing to
younger consumers.OF: I see.
All of the other spirits have been growing. And a lot of that has been - and this is what
has been interesting over, say, the last fiveyears - is the growth of cocktail culture
(17:40):
in China. And I think that's awesome, becausethere are some amazing bars in Shanghai, and
in the rest of China. People doing some reallyinteresting things. And on a super premium
level.OF: I guess because cocktails themselves are
becoming more popular, then that’s justa wave in which gin is included.
There is an education component with gin. That's a really big job.
OF (18:05):
Why gin, then? Why not a vodka? Why not diversify and do both? Like, what was your
thinking at that point?FW: With vodka, you're basically restricted
to whatever your base spirit is. But you can'treally include other ingredients in it. Whereas
gin, you can. I mean, I love it. I love beingable to go around to these different places
(18:27):
and have connections with pepper farmers in四川 [Sìchuān], and these citrus farmers
云南 [Yúnnán], and, you know, play aroundwith some pineapples every now and then.
I just like the way you said that. Basically what you're saying is, you love gin. It's
as simple as that, isn't it? Take me throughhow you go from nothing to becoming a small-scale
distiller?FW: Yeah, well it's a real story of persistence.
(18:51):
Is this good or stupid persistence? FW
that's when you look back on it and you justmake that call.
Yeah. FW
garage in 浦东 [Pǔdōng] that we couldgo and try out some recipes in.
Oh, classic. A garage. FW
It sounds like Hewlett-Packard already. FW
(19:15):
go out there, experiment with recipes withthe ingredients that we'd sourced. You know,
get up at 6:30 in the morning, get out there,and come back at nighttime. And eventually
we found a recipe that we liked, and startedgoing around to different bartenders in Shanghai,
and sort of forcing them to taste the product.OF: Oh my word.
FW (19:36):
And bless them, it's an amazing community. So thank you for everybody who did that. And
so we spent a lot of time getting feedbackfrom all of the bartenders. But it was pretty
organic, the evolution of Peddlers, in termsof like going from recipe development, hustling
around bars, getting product feedback. Andthen when we were finally in a position to
(19:59):
sell product, it felt like an environmentwhere you could get out and do that. And it
would be something which people were quiteexcited about. For a long time, we would be
hand-delivering all of the gin. So it wouldbe a matter of loading up the scooter with
as many boxes of gin as you could get. Myrecord was nine boxes of gin on a scooter.
(20:20):
So I was just thinking about it before, itwas like three in the footwell, and then another
three on top of those. And then you wouldstack - in a row going forward - another three.
OF (20:29):
This is Boxes. FW
Which means how many bottles? FW
OK. Funny, because until now we haven't talked about the name of your gin. But this
makes me think about the name Peddlers. Goingfrom bar to bar, selling gin.
FW (20:46):
Exactly. OF
called it Peddlers. This must be part of yourthinking behind the brand.
Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, we’re literally just peddling gin around Shanghai.
There's obviously like a lot of hustle inthe name there. But I also feel like it's
really true for Shanghai in general. It'salways been a very commercial city, a trading
(21:06):
hub. That to us really captured the idea ofthe hustle and the bustle, and people selling
things from all over the world in Shanghai.And certainly driving around motorbikes overloaded
with gin also felt like it was part of that.OF: Oh, absolutely. I always like the start-up
stories. But let's fast forward to today,then. So what is the process now? I'm guessing
(21:27):
you're still not going bar to bar? Or is thatstill part of the way that you sell your gin?
I think that's always going to be part of the alcohol industry.
OF (21:36):
Oh. FW
a really great team. So we have more peoplewho can help out, including people who would
be visiting bars quite a lot. Shanghai waswhere we started. But since then we've grown
throughout China. So we've got staff in Beijingand in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]. Distributors,
in general, throughout China have been fundamentalin scaling.
(22:00):
What is it now that takes up most of your brain space?
FW (22:03):
Right now? So over the past 18 months, we have expanded a lot throughout China. And
we've also scaled overseas. When we firstapplied for our export licence, they didn't
have a category for gin export. So we hadto sort of create one.
OF (22:22):
Nice! Well, thank you so much Fergus. I mean, what you do is under the radar for
someone who is a consumer like me. So you'vebeen very patient, as I've asked you very
basic questions about how you distil gin.But the story is a great one. You know, we've
been in Shanghai for a similar length of time,and I've seen your product grow. And I've
(22:43):
always enjoyed it. And so I'm looking forwardnow to somebody telling me one day “Oh,
I just had this gin. I heard it’s from China.”And I’ll be like “Yes, I know the guy.
I've been drinking that gin for eight yearsalready”.
FW (22:54):
That'd be awesome. I'd love that, Oscar. OF
Thank you so much for having me. OF
2.FW: Sure.
[Part 2]OF: I wonder if I had actually brought some
gin to this recording, whether it would havebeen a different level of conversation or
not.FW: I don't think alcohol is necessarily a
(23:15):
great input into an interview that's beingrecorded.
OF (23:18):
All right, let's jump into the 10 questions. These are the same 10 questions that I ask
everyone who is on the podcast. And I willstart with Question 1, which is from Shanghai
Daily (23:29):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
FW (23:33):
So, I was fascinated when I learned that there are over a million people in China who
live in caves.OF: What, no.
Yeah! OF
Yeah, heaps of people live in caves. OF
in caves. And then the city grew and developed,and then they rehoused them into apartment
blocks in the city. But even now, there arestill people?
(23:55):
Yeah. OF
research, for both of us. Because I do wantto know the story now. I mean, I guess it's
possible.FW: Yeah.
OF (24:03):
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone
in Chinese?FW: I would have to go with one of the first
phrases that I learnt in Chinese which was‘忙好，太忙不好 [máng hǎo, tàimáng
bùhǎo]’.OF: 忙好，太忙不好 [Máng hǎo, tàimáng
bùhǎo].FW: Yeah. Which means ‘being busy is good,
but being too busy is not good’. The longerI've spent in China, the more that applies
(24:25):
to life in China.OF: What was the context in which you learnt
that? Is that actually a phrase that peoplesay?
FW (24:29):
Well, I certainly say it. So I guess if that includes me, then yes.
OF (24:33):
I mean, I hear it in the context of ‘太忙了 [Tàimángle]’ or 忙死了 [Mángsǐle],
like people complaining that they're too busy.But I haven't heard it in that context.
FW (24:40):
Yeah well when I was taught it, I was definitely taught it as if it was like a phrase.
OF (24:43):
Yeah. FW
were like “Yeah, people say this all thetime.” Just this assumption that your resting
status should be ‘busy’.OF: Oh I see. That's the default position.
FW (24:55):
Your default position is busy. OF
Like, presumably, there are still momentswhere you are ‘太忙了 [tàimángle]’.
To be honest, the hustle is… OF
Daily, yeah. But I really enjoy choosing my own work hours, and deciding where I want
to focus.OF: Well that's actually quite mature. Because
usually when it’s your own business, thereis no off and on. Like, you’re full-on the
(25:17):
whole time. Because of the way you work withbars, do you tend to work late evenings? Or
do you tend to have regular working hoursduring the day?
It probably skews late. But it still starts pretty early. I mean, it's not just going
to bars.OF: Yes.
But I mean, I go.. I go to quite a lot of bars.
OF (25:37):
I've seen you in a few of them, too. FW
Retreats (25:45):
What's your favourite destination within China?
FW (25:48):
I really enjoy 成都 [Chéngdū]. I've had some really great trips there. And the
F&B industry there is awesome. They've gotthese amazing underground nightclubs, which
are just in random apartment buildings.OF: Part of that makes me feel “OK, it’s
in a developing stage, which Shanghai mayhave been like a few years ago”. But the
(26:12):
other part is 成都 [Chéngdū] innatelyhas this kind of offbeat coolness which I
think Shanghai never would have had. Right,do you agree with that?
There's something about 成都 [Chéngdū], yeah. They're sort of coming at life from
a slightly different direction.OF: Right. Yeah, I'm wasting my time in Shanghai.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
(26:32):
I think I would miss ‘China speed’. I really enjoy it. That feeling of progress
is really tangible.OF: And then what would you miss the least?
The attitude to queuing when people get off aeroplanes here?
OF (26:47):
Oh right. FW
already been stressful, and as soon as itlands… that rush to the front.
There’s a funny connection I'm making with somebody else in the podcast, it was
Abe Deyo from Season 01, he actually was atour manager for indie groups. He would miss
the way that people disembark off planes themost.
FW (27:10):
Really? OF
appreciates the efficiency of everyone goingto every single last gap. So that when the
doors do open, everyone is out.FW: I’d be curious to know the time saved
by doing that.OF: But it's the same as you. Like, you're
saying that you like the fast pace. This is‘China speed’. But then in this particular
situation, ‘China speed’ works againstyou.
(27:32):
Yeah, I find that there's something about that which gets me.
OF (27:36):
I don't know where I actually land on this, because I think I've got used to it.
Maybe I'm also… Like, I'm not pushing, butwhen it's my turn, zip I'm out.
FW (27:44):
Yeah. OF
you about life in China?FW: Yes, the variety of dried meat snacks.
OF (27:52):
Oh! FW
there was a dried meat snack which was a debonedduck foot, shrink-wrapped in plastic.
Yes. FW
You never know, maybe it's got a very very nice texture. I agree, I can picture
what you mean now. Because they're shrink-wrapped,and you can make out exactly what the thing
(28:14):
is.FW: Yeah.
Like, in the West in general, we sanitise our meat. It's just slabs of meat, and you
can't tell where it came from.FW: Yeah it’s true.
You can’t even tell what animal, right? Here, you know exactly what part. You can
see it blinking at you.FW: Yeah.
Yes. Apart from the duck feet, what other ones do you remember?
FW (28:33):
The duck heads. And they've always been cut in half.
OF (28:36):
Oh, no. FW
I don't think I have. FW
This is possibly because you go to 成都 [Chéngdū] a lot. A lot of these snack are
very 四川 [Sìchuān], aren't they?FW: I'm not sure. But usually I'll spot them
in a train station somewhere. And all youwant is a sandwich or something familiar,
but instead… two entire rows of meat snacks.OF: Yeah. Next time buy one, try it, take
(29:03):
a photo, and send it to me. If you’re tryingto persuade us to drink your gin, with all
your fancy-pants ingredients and your Buddha’shand or whatnot…
FW (29:11):
If you make a dried meat snack company Oscar, then I'll eat the duck.
OF (29:16):
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat, to drink, or to hang out?FW: So there are an amazing selection of places
in Shanghai to go. And I was looking throughwhat people have said previously. And so as
to not repeat previous answers, I would sayUnion Trading Company.
(29:38):
Oh, that's a great choice. Tell me about that place.
FW (29:42):
So that was started by a guy named 遥 [Yáo] a while ago now, probably like seven
years ago. So it's been around for a longtime, in Shanghai years. And it very much
feels like a neighbourhood cosy bar. It'sgot like a long wooden top.
OF (29:56):
Yes. FW
Yes, it looks local, but the drinks that they serve are elevated.
FW (30:03):
Yeah, they recently got voted maybe the 49th best bar in the world.
OF (30:08):
Wow. FW
It's unbelievable really, because it's a very unassuming place.
FW (30:14):
Yeah. I think the judges, whoever they are, must take those sort of things into account.
You know, it's the drinks, it's the service,it’s the ambience of the place. And those
guys deserve it, it’s a great spot.OF: Where in your story do they fit in? Like,
when you were pounding the streets of Shanghai,were they early in your story?
They definitely were. OF
Yeah 遥 [Yáo] was a big supporter of what we were doing. And he helped us with
(30:39):
a bunch of events in there. And those guysare all friends.
OF (30:42):
Oh, nice. It's a hard question for you. Because even as you say that, you're ostracising
the other 99 bars that you've also got a goodrelationship with.
FW (30:50):
Yeah, there's a long list of shout-outs there.
OF (30:53):
Yeah. What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
FW (30:58):
The worst purchase was a sleeping bag. OF
And I was buying it for some sort of like trip into 四川 [Sìchuān]. And last-minute
packing, I got something from the fake markets,a sleeping bag. And I pulled it out on the
first night and it was cold, and we're stayingat various hostels. And after about half an
hour of lying on it, it got quite scratchy.And like totally disappeared into nothing.
(31:23):
So it was a little bit bulky, and then itsort of just flattened.
OF (31:26):
So you’re lying on just one layer of fibre, basically.
FW (31:29):
Well, I was curious as to actually what I was lying on, because it was so scratchy.
And so I cut open a segment of it, and itwas just floor sweepings.
OF (31:38):
Oh my god. Oh wow. FW
there.OF: See, if you go to the fake markets, you're
gonna get some fake ****, Fergus.FW: Exactly. It was definitely not an expensive
sleeping bag.OF: Eurgh, you had to say toenails, why did
you say toenails? Gross. Alright, the nextquestion, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
FW (32:06):
I think my favourite WeChat sticker is the tumbleweed.
OF (32:10):
Oh yes. FW
or something. And then slowly a tumbleweedgoes from right to left across the picture.
I think it's a good one for when people justignore you.
Totally. FW
group and no-one says anything. It's justlike, yeah, tumbleweeds.
(32:31):
Yes. Usually, it's taking the piss out of someone who hasn't got a reply, right?
FW (32:35):
Yeah. OF
If somebody hasn't replied to you, you canjust send that.
Well, I mean, I would probably not send that in, like…
OF (32:44):
To a client? FW
aggressive with itOF: Yeah, it's a good one, this one. I have
it, but I tell you what, I am too scared touse it. Because it feels like I'm trying to
really guilt you into replying.FW: I'm not trying to throw down too much
guilt with that. It's more just like a reminderthat I'm sitting here.
Alright, good. Next question, what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
FW (33:07):
That would be ‘Stan’ by Eminem. OF
I don't know, I just know that song quite well. It's not like I'm a really big Eminem
fan either, but…OF: That’s not the one with Dido, is it?
It is the one with Dido. OF
Yeah, so it works quite well as a duet. OF
No, usually I'll recruit someone to sing the girl’s part, and then just crush the
(33:29):
rap.OF: OK.
I mean, that's the whole point of KTV, right? It’s like a bit of a performance.
OF (33:36):
Yes. All right. And finally - and this comes from JustPod, which is the company that
provides the studio, which we're not in today,as anyone listening can probably guess - what
or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
FW (33:52):
You know, I gotta say that it is the entrepreneur community in Shanghai, and across China. I
think that that was a really important partof allowing us as a company to go from zero
to wherever we are now. And just the amountof support that was just out there and goodwill,
just people buying into what you're doing,and being excited and happy and not dismissive
(34:18):
of what you're trying to do. And when whatyou're doing is like hand-carrying gin around
different bars, you can feel as if you'rejust “What am I doing?”
OF (34:27):
“What the hell?” FW
lot with entrepreneurs. And Shanghai was areally positive place to be for it.
Yeah. And these are people who you can get advice from, just by giving them a bit
of gin now and again.FW: Yeah, just take them for like three or
four martinis, and…OF: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that
Fergus. It's good to have your story. It'sgood to have you as a Kiwi, but someone who
(34:51):
is passionate about building a Chinese brand.And now not just a Chinese brand in China,
but one that you're starting to sell overseas.I hope you continue to experiment with these
different flavours, and I look forward totasting the next iteration of Peddlers.
FW (35:05):
Well thank you very much, Oscar. I appreciate that goodwill. And I hope so too.
OF (35:10):
Before you go let me ask you one final thing, which is
in China, who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
FW (35:19):
So there's a guy I'm friends with called Graeme Kennedy. He's a photographer, he takes
amazing photographs and videos from all overChina. He used to be a war journalist.
OF (35:33):
Oh. FW
And he does some of the coolest trips in China.They make me so jealous, he goes to some amazing
places. So I think he'd have a really interestingperspective on his time here.
Oh, very cool. Has he accompanied you to some of your trips when you're visiting
your suppliers in rural 四川 [Sìchuān]?FW: He has, yes. Yeah, he's been along for
(35:53):
the ride.OF: Oh nice. I look forward to having that
chat with Graeme. If there was one questionthat you would ask Graeme on the podcast,
what question would you ask him?FW: It would probably be "What was his most
uncomfortable photoshoot?”OF: Oh, that's a great one. Hopefully it wasn't
on your trip, was it?FW: I don't think so.
(36:15):
Thank you so much again, Fergus. FW
me.
[Outro]OF: First things first, I tried to research
the exact number of people in China who stilllive in caves. Actually some websites were
saying that over 30 million people live incaves! But then I noticed that the articles
(36:36):
were written over ten years ago, so who knowswhat has changed since then. If anyone out
there has any up-to-date information, thenplease get in touch, I want to know for sure.
Yes, I just said 佛手 [Fóshǒu], whichis the Chinese name for the crazy fruit Buddha’s
hand. To see photos of that, as well as Fergus’object, his favourite WeChat sticker, and
(37:01):
loads more goodies, as always please findme on Instagram at @oscology and everywhere
else by searching for mosaicofchina. If you’rein one of the WeChat listeners groups, there’s
a bonus image for you, which is a QR codethat you can use to get 20% off your next
order of Peddlers Gin, courtesy of Fergus.
(37:23):
I’m excited to talk about the connectionsto previous episodes. Yes, all this talk of
四川 [Sìchuān] peppers links us back tothe favourite China fact of the street food
expert Jamie BARYS from Season 02 Episode02, so please go back there to listen out
for that. Yes, there’s a connection withsleeping bags back to the clean energy entrepreneur
(37:46):
Alex SHOER from Season 02 Episode 11. Butthe most fun connection concerns the part
of today’s episode when Fergus was speculatingabout the judges who named Union Trading Company
one of the world’s 50 top bars. Well wehad the judge on the podcast last season.
So go back to the episode with Crystyl MOfrom Season 02 Episode 26, Crystyl is the
(38:12):
China Academy Chair at ‘The World’s 50Best’.
Before we come to the catch-up interview,as always there is of course an extra 10-15
minutes from my conversation with Fergus inthe PREMIUM version of the show. Head to the
Mosaic of China website to follow the instructionson how to subscribe. Here are a few clips...
(38:32):
[Clip 1]OF: After a few gins you're a bit louder,
are you?FW: Er, it depends who you ask.
[Clip 2]FW: What sort of yeast you're using makes
quite a big difference to what the final tasteis.
Right. [Clip 3]
FW (38:45):
It was so stressful, I think I lost several years of my life at the airport.
[Clip 4]OF: Well, which grains did you use? Is that
a trade secret?FW: No, that's OK. Yeah, we use **** as a
base spirit.OF: OK.
[Clip 5]FW: One particular salty old Frenchman finished
it with “Your business is going to fail,because nobody will ever buy Chinese alcohol”.
(39:05):
[Clip 6]FW: Even what time of year you source the
ingredients, it makes a really really bigdifference to the flavour.
[Clip 7]OF: It’s not a cool word.
It’s definitely not cool. But you'd be happily uncool.
OF (39:17):
Believe me, I appreciate the uncoolness. [End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. You heard his voice earlier
on in today’s episode (39:27):
Sean Harmon is coming up for a quick catch-up chat, since he was
the one who nominated Fergus from last Season.And I'll see you again next time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: There he is! Hello Sean.
SH (39:51):
Hey, Oscar. OF
Likewise. How have you been? It's been a long time.
OF (39:56):
It has been a long time. And we are talking remotely, which is one of the biggest updates
since we last talked - on mic at least - 18months ago. So where are you right now?
SH (40:09):
I am in Hong Kong. Quite a life change. I was nine and a half years based in Shanghai.
It was a great run, I loved Shanghai. I mean,I was supposed to be going back and forth
- Hong Kong to Shanghai - you know, everyother week, sort of thing. But obviously COVID
kind of got in the way of that. So my wiferelocated first, she moved in January of last
(40:29):
year. And then last year, I was kind of livingbetween two cities. I did five weeks of quarantine
in total last year, going back and forth.But since then in January, we actually had
a baby. So I haven't been up to the mainlandsince the baby was born, we've obviously had
our hands full. And plus, as you know, Shanghaihas been going through a bit of a rough time
lately as well.OF: Well, I should preface this by saying
(40:52):
exactly what you do, for those people whodidn't hear our original episode. You're the
General Manager for Greater China of DuvelMoortgat, the beer brand from Belgium. And
I think Vedett is the brand most of us wouldknow, in Shanghai at least. I tell you what
I do still have - and it's right in frontof me now - it is your object that you brought,
(41:13):
which was the bottle of Vedett with my faceon it.
Fun! But that’s actually not a great thing. By now it should be an empty bottle.
But, you know, I’ll give you a pass.OF: Well, you gave me six bottles, and five
are empty. So…SH: OK, there we go.
OF (41:26):
There you go. It feeds my ego. And what more do you need? Despite moving to Hong Kong,
your role actually hasn't changed. So tellme about that.
SH (41:36):
I mean, I think that not being able to just hop over when needed is a bit frustrating,
to be honest with you. Because, you know,sometimes there's an event or there’s a
client meeting, where you want to be ableto hop on a plane and go. And right now, it’s
what, seven plus three, so a 10-day time period.But for a long time, it was 14 or 21 days
to enter. So that's been frustrating. Butonce the border is open, I believe from an
(42:01):
efficiency perspective, it'll be easy. Aslong as the border is open.
OF (42:05):
Yeah. “I’ll have a meeting with you. Could you do it 22 days from now, please?”
Yeah.SH: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Well, now that you are in Hong Kong, it makes me think about the question I asked
you about life on mainland China, which wasabout what you would miss the most and miss
the least if you left the Chinese mainland.So what you did say was that you would miss
(42:29):
the energy. And what you said that you wouldn'tmiss was the pollution. So now that you've
been out for over a year, what is it thatyou miss the most and miss the least?
SH (42:38):
That's a good question. I mean, the energy… I think I still get it. I'm still talking
to people in China every day. I'm still verymuch in a metropolis. It's still an Asian
mega city. I think when I said pollution,it was also about noise pollution, if I remember?
OF (42:53):
Correct, correct. SH
I would say the access to nature… I grewup near Miami, so Fort Lauderdale, you have
a beach right there, you're living with abalance of outdoor life. And Hong Kong, you
very much have this balance. Hiking or trail-runningor beaches, you do have a better balance with
nature. Where in Shanghai, it’s a littlebit tough to get out of the city.
(43:15):
Yes, absolutely. You had to go to the likes of 莫干山 [Mògànshān] to actually
be in nature. It's like a two hour train ride.SH: Yeah.
You’re absolutely right, that’s the one thing that was the biggest struggle when
I left Hong Kong to come here. Well, thankyou so much for this catch-up. And I look
forward to hopefully seeing you in personeither in Hong Kong or Shanghai or god knows
(43:35):
where. See you, man.SH: Fingers crossed. Take care.
[Trailer]OF: What the hell is that?
FW (00:03):
Man, they’re a crazy fruit. OF
It’s a fruit.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So in the first episode of Season 03 we hadthe interview with the technologist Eric LIU,
(00:25):
which was recorded in the JustPod studio.Then last week was the comic book store owner
Ashley HUANG, which was recorded on the road,in a hotel room in 成都 [Chéngdū]. And
for contrast, today’s episode was recordedin my apartment in Shanghai, which usually
happens when we can’t align the scheduleof the guest with the availability of the
(00:47):
studio. What also usually happens in thesecircumstances is that we have some fun background
noise issues thanks to the general goings-onin the lane where I live. So today’s symphonic
accompaniment is a circular saw concerto inthe key of [闭嘴 [bìzuǐ]!
Luckily, these background noises didn’tfaze my guest Fergus Woodward, one of the
(01:11):
founders of Peddlers Gin, who you’ll findhas a super low-key conversation style. Fergus
is also a Kiwi, and I don’t really noticehis accent, but I spent a loooong time fixing
the transcript for today’s episode, whichwas initially generated by an AI programme
that has no concept of the New Zealand accent.So this experience alone reminds me to point
(01:37):
non-native speakers to the Mosaic of Chinawebsite to follow the transcript, in case
you’re confused about pen versus pin, setversus sit, and Jen versus gin. I’m very
sorry to that poor girl Jen, I needed to totallyeradicate her from the transcript of today’s
episode.
(01:58):
Just to balance things out, a quick word fornon-Chinese speakers. At one point in today’s
interview we talk about developing 关系[guānxì]. That’s the process of building
relationships, particularly when it comesto business connections. And we also mention
白酒 [báijiǔ], which is the classic ‘whiteliquor’ spirit that is drunk in China.
(02:21):
Alright we’ve downed the apéritif, let’sget on with today’s show.
[Part 1]OF: Hello Fergus.
Hey, Oscar. OF
into your energy, which is very chill, whichI appreciate. Before we start, tell me briefly,
what do you do in China?FW: So I started a company called Peddlers
(02:43):
Gin. And now I sell gin around China, andalso around Asia Pacific.
OF (02:48):
OK. And before we go into that story, what is the object that you've brought that
in some way typifies your life in China?FW: So, a little pin from the drinks awards.
Oh, I see. FW
the F&B community. Usually it's Asia, butover the last two years, it's been China.
(03:09):
Organised by DRiNK Magazine, and Thirsty WorkProductions, which is headed up by a lovely
chap called Theo. It's an annual celebrationof all things F&B in China. And F&B has been
such a really big part of my life here inChina. Obviously with my company, and then
you know the community is great. And we'vebeen lucky enough to win a few things at that,
(03:33):
which is great. Most of the awards are forbars, so sort of like ‘Best Bar’, ‘Best
Bartender’. I think it's a really nice wayof celebrating the community. Whether or not
you agree with where the awards go is alwaysa different discussion. But I think just having
an event is really important. So I think thatthey do a really good job.
And the pin itself, is that a stylised bunch of grapes? Is that what they’re going
(03:55):
for?FW: It's a stylised cocktail shaker.
Oh, no, I see it now. FW
on, for example, your apron.OF: I see.
FW (04:03):
For example, like if you went to a bar, often a bar will have pins. And they'll give
them to guest bartenders who come. And it'sjust a way of reflecting your involvement.
OF (04:12):
OK. Is this actually a thing, then? Should I now start to keep my eyes open and looking
out for people wearing pins in bars?FW: Well, I think if you look at the bartender,
there's a high chance that there'll be wearinga pin of some sort.
Is that right? FW
OK. And this is a China thing, or this is an international thing.
FW (04:27):
I'm not actually sure. It's certainly something in China. And the China and Asia
bartending community is really tight, whichI really admire. It is a community. A lot
of people know each other. There's a lot oftravel in between cities. Overseas, it's probably
to a lesser extent.OF: Right. I'm quite glad you answered in
(04:48):
that way, where you said “I'm not quitesure what happens outside of this region”.
Because what you're saying to me is that basically,this is a Chinese brand.
Yeah. OF
basics about how you started the company inShanghai. What was that story?
I've been in China for about seven years. And the first part of that was at Fudan University.
(05:09):
And I was doing a master's degree in businessmanagement. I really enjoy trying new things,
and to me, Shanghai was sort of part of that.OF: When I think about Kiwis, they're always
bungee jumping, or mountain biking or…FW: Heaps of bungee jumping, Oscar. We just
bungee jump any chance we get.OF: In fact your hair is tussled, I'm sure
you just came from a bungee right now.FW: Yeah, there's a lot of bungee jumping(!).
(05:32):
Er, there is quite a lot of outdoor activitiesin New Zealand. So there's a lot of hunting,
surfing, snowboarding, skiing, there is alot of that. I think it gets amplified because
that's also our tourism industry.OF: Right.
So when people are telling stories overseas about what New Zealand is, it's very meshed
in with our tourism pitch.OF: So I've just bought into the PR.
(05:55):
Yeah, that’s alright though. It's better than Lord of the Rings.
OF (05:59):
Well, let's not even dwell on that one second longer. Let's move on. So you were
here, you were studying, you were checkingout the F&B scene…
FW (06:07):
Yeah. And there were amazing craft beers being made in China, and in Shanghai. Also,
at the same time, there's amazing ingredientsand cuisine from all around China.
OF (06:20):
When it comes to craft beer, that's the connection between the person who referred
you to the podcast from last season.FW: Oh yeah, Sean.
Sean Harmon. So why don't I play to you what Sean said about you.
[Start of Audio Clip]Sean HARMON: I think a really cool story is
the story of Peddlers Gin Company. A friendof mine is a Co-Founder there, Fergus. They're
creating something I think is really impressive,it’s a great quality product. It'd be a
(06:43):
cool story, I think, for everyone to learn.[End of Audio Clip]
FW (06:46):
I think I met Sean, through a mutual friend on the rooftop of Mexican bar.
OF (06:52):
You suddenly went very hazy. FW
[Jìng'ān] I'm pretty sure, drinking margaritas.OF: OK.
FW (07:02):
Yeah. OF
the main out-of-the-box drink option in Chinaat that point?
Yeah it was. Which was actually really interesting, because there was no craft premium
Chinese-made spirit. And to me, it sort offelt natural that there should be. And gin
was really cool because as a spirit, it givesyou an opportunity to use a lot of different
(07:25):
ingredients. Juniper is your main ingredientfor gin, but you can also include any number
of other ingredients. So as a medium for reflectingyour origin story, it meant we could use 四川
[Sìchuān] pepper, it meant we could useBuddha's hand, and lotus, and things like
that.OF: OK. Well, why don't we, in that case,
(07:46):
talk about how you make gin.FW: Yeah sure.
OF (07:48):
Because I understand that with gin, you use a still. It’s a distilling process rather
than a brewing process.FW: Yeah.
I know that these are words, but I don't quite know what they mean. Like, what is the
process of making gin?FW: The place where gin would start would
be - sort of like a beer, basically - youfind something and you ferment it. So it'd
be like corn, or barley or wheat.OF: Oh actually you can have different bases
(08:12):
for gin, can you?FW: Yeah, you can have a different base spirit.
Oh right. FW
and yeast, and that picks up an alcohol contentlevel. And then you take all of that, and
then you put it into a column still, and youdistil that many many times. You just heat
it up, and the alcohol boils before the water.You keep it in a tank, you discard the water,
(08:36):
and then you put that alcohol back into thestill, and you would re-distil it.
I see. FW
content to ideally 90-95% pure alcohol.OF: Right.
FW (08:47):
You need to do that a number of times. And it also strips the undesirable elements
of alcohol, including the real bad stuff likemethanol, which is an alcoholic compound that
forms at the same time when you ferment something.But that's the one that makes you go blind.
OF (09:05):
Oh. Not ideal. FW
moonshine, or something like that…OF: Yes.
FW (09:10):
…Then that's what it is. It means that they have fermented something, and they haven't
done it in a way where they've taken the methanoloff.
OF (09:17):
Right. This is now making me a bit scared when you're starting up your own brand, right?
I'm just imagining you in a shed doing it,and like, “Has it got methanol? Let me just
taste it. Yeah, a bit too much methanol inthat one.”
FW (09:29):
No, there are ways that you can make it very safe.
OF (09:32):
Presumably you can measure it. Like, there are gauges, or..?
FW (09:35):
Yeah, as long as you understand what you're doing, there's no problem getting rid of it.
OF (09:39):
OK. FW
that point, you select your ingredients. Youwould put them all together into a tank - including
juniper and the earthier ingredients likeliquorice, angelica, cinnamon - and then you
would distil it again. And then that comesout basically tasting of gin. The second time
around, we vapour infuse. Which means thatwe've got what's called a gin basket.
(10:03):
I've seen them, yeah. It's like a tea bag in a tea pot.
FW (10:08):
Yeah, but it's not in the liquid, it’s above it.
OF (10:11):
Oh, I see. FW
comes off. And into that we put Buddha's hand,East Asian mint, and 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper
is definitely like a ‘hero ingredient’.The reason for that - this took so much trial
and error to figure this out - is that thoseingredients are a little bit lighter. And
so if you put them into the pot, then theydegrade really rapidly. And the end-lifecycle
(10:37):
of a mint after it's been boiled in alcoholfor eight hours… You know, it's not tasting
any good at the end of that.OF: Right.
FW (10:45):
So that process picks up some slightly more delicate flavours. And then you would
cut that with water - because it's come outat a very high percentage ABV - to anywhere
between 38-50%, wherever you want it. Andthat's gin. Yeah.
OF (10:58):
You mentioned the phrase ‘hero ingredient’ - that was in the context of 四川 [Sìchuān]
pepper - what do you mean by ‘hero ingredient’?FW: We sort of mean ingredients that we really
like the taste profile of, we think they havea super cool story, and we wanted to include
in the gin. Because being able to reflectsome of the flavours and botanicals of China
(11:18):
was one of the reasons why we started thecompany. And so 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper
was one of those. And the other one I mentionedwas Buddha’s hand, which is…
What the hell is that? FW
Oh it’s a fruit. FW
OK. FW
[Yúnnán]. And it is super ugly. And thereason it's called a Buddha's hand is because
(11:41):
it kind of looks like somebody's fingers allpressed together.
What's the Chinese word for it, do you know?
FW (11:47):
佛手 [Fóshǒu]. OF
a translation of the Chinese.FW: Yeah.
OF (11:51):
Is this well known? I lived in China now for eight years, I don't think I've heard
of it before.FW: It's not, no. It’s a really uncommon
fruit. And that's because it's gott no pulp.It's all rind.
Oh, god. FW
you would have zero use for it.OF: In China, is it used for anything?
FW (12:09):
It's used for teas. OF
And like, TCM. OF
Yeah. But it's, really really aromatic. So it smells amazing. It smells like a cross
between sort of like a lime and a rose. It’sbeautiful
OF (12:23):
Is it all over 云南 [Yúnnán], or is it in a certain part?
FW (12:25):
It's pretty widespread, yeah. But it's not very common at all overseas.
OF (12:29):
No. FW
the early 2000s.OF: Isn't it funny. It reminds me of the craze
for goji berries at one point.FW: Yeah, yeah.
Right? And suddenly everyone knows about goji berries. Whereas before it was really
just in this one small part of China thatthey knew about it. I wonder if Buddha's hand
is going to have a similar kind of discoveryand Renaissance?
FW (12:51):
Yeah, finding ways to use it is more complicated than with like a typical citrus fruit.
OF (12:56):
Yes. FW
the peel is the most useful part for distilling.Because it holds its texture better when it's
exposed to high heat and alcohol. So it givesoff flavour for longer, and doesn't really
turn to a mush as quickly.OF: OK.
FW (13:12):
So it's perfect for gin. OF
a flavour, as a fruit? When you were thinkingabout what ingredients, where did this come
from?FW: The inspiration for that… I mean, we
spent a really long time on recipe development.And there was a lot of travel around China
to find them.OF: I'm going to interrupt you there. Because
(13:32):
all the while you've been saying “We.”So who is ‘we’?
Yeah, so when we first kicked off it was sort of me and a couple of friends.
OF (13:39):
All Kiwis? FW
expanded to include local Chinese.OF: And your role in that group was what exactly?
FW (13:48):
Well at the start there was not really a whole lot of differentiation.
OF (13:51):
Yes. FW
Yes. FW
Oh, I see. OK. Well back then, then. When you were working out the flavours…
FW (14:03):
Yeah, we spent a lot of time travelling on long-distance trains.
OF (14:08):
I'm assuming not business class. FW
slow trains that we could find.OF: Oh. But at this point, you weren't sourcing,
you were just experimenting with flavours.You would just go to a farm and say “Can
I taste something?” Or what?FW: Yeah, and you would taste something and
then you'd potentially think that it was anice ingredient. But the supplier that you
(14:32):
got it from, the level of quality wasn't goodenough.
Oh, so you were going to individual suppliers themselves. It wasn't just going to local
markets, and seeing what flavours you couldfind.
FW (14:41):
There was a bit of both. OF
Yeah. OF
you find a supplier for, let's say, 四川[Sìchuān] pepper.
So 四川 [Sìchuān] pepper was a really fun one actually, we've got a really good
relationship with several farms in 四川[Sìchuān] in a place called 汉源 [Hànyuán]
county. There are a lot of pepper farms aroundthere, and they're beautiful. And harvest
(15:02):
is around August. Historically, it has beenvery famous for producing very high quality
四川 [Sìchuān] pepper. A really nice 四川[Sìchuān] pepper is pretty light, citrusy.
And that's not the case with all 四川 [Sìchuān]pepper.
OF (15:17):
A-hah. FW
[Sìchuān] peppers. I’ve spent a lot oftime in random warehouses in the middle of
nowhere with a numb tongue. Just the persistencein really getting to that final farm was really
just following up leads that you thought wouldbe totally useless, or randomly talking with
somebody at a bar…OF: Yeah, I mean, that actually makes sense.
(15:40):
Because you go out, you talk to somebody ina bar, they recommend someone, they know someone.
FW (15:44):
Yeah. OF
after all, not by cold calling and sendingmessages. I mean, that's how I imagined it
would have had to have worked.FW: Yeah, there's a lot of that, meeting people
and asking who they knew. And someone hasa cousin who knows someone in that area. And
they ignore you, but maybe somebody else doesn't.OF: Right. I'm assuming that they wouldn't
(16:05):
really have a clue what gin was, at that point.FW: No. No, not at all.
OF (16:09):
And even now, maybe some don’t. FW
he has tried the product. But he still hasno idea what gin is.
Well what is the market for gin in China? We heard, last season, Sean Harmon’s story.
Like, there is an understanding about whatbeer is. And then from his side, he needs
to educate the market about what a craft beeris, and why that's a premium product versus
(16:34):
what they can get in a ‘Snow’ brand beer.When it comes to gin, what is the process
of education in the market?FW: Gin, it's similar to beer, but it started
from a much smaller base. In Tier One cities,for a long time. gin has been around. But
it’s a very small part of what a Chineseconsumer would be drinking on a weekly basis.
(16:57):
It's like very very small. 98% of all spiritssold in China is by 白酒 [báijiǔ].
Right, 98. FW
of where gin would sit.OF: Yeah, so you have to share the remaining
2% with everything else.FW: Yeah, whisky and cognac are both really
big categories. Vodka would probably be next.And then possibly gin. OF: Woohoo.
FW (17:19):
Yeah, we might have made it onto that. I think the trend in China has been that people
are drinking 白酒 [báijiǔ] less. It'snot a drink which is like as appealing to
younger consumers.OF: I see.
All of the other spirits have been growing. And a lot of that has been - and this is what
has been interesting over, say, the last fiveyears - is the growth of cocktail culture
(17:40):
in China. And I think that's awesome, becausethere are some amazing bars in Shanghai, and
in the rest of China. People doing some reallyinteresting things. And on a super premium
level.OF: I guess because cocktails themselves are
becoming more popular, then that’s justa wave in which gin is included.
There is an education component with gin. That's a really big job.
OF (18:05):
Why gin, then? Why not a vodka? Why not diversify and do both? Like, what was your
thinking at that point?FW: With vodka, you're basically restricted
to whatever your base spirit is. But you can'treally include other ingredients in it. Whereas
gin, you can. I mean, I love it. I love beingable to go around to these different places
(18:27):
and have connections with pepper farmers in四川 [Sìchuān], and these citrus farmers
云南 [Yúnnán], and, you know, play aroundwith some pineapples every now and then.
I just like the way you said that. Basically what you're saying is, you love gin. It's
as simple as that, isn't it? Take me throughhow you go from nothing to becoming a small-scale
distiller?FW: Yeah, well it's a real story of persistence.
(18:51):
Is this good or stupid persistence? FW
that's when you look back on it and you justmake that call.
Yeah. FW
garage in 浦东 [Pǔdōng] that we couldgo and try out some recipes in.
Oh, classic. A garage. FW
It sounds like Hewlett-Packard already. FW
(19:15):
go out there, experiment with recipes withthe ingredients that we'd sourced. You know,
get up at 6:30 in the morning, get out there,and come back at nighttime. And eventually
we found a recipe that we liked, and startedgoing around to different bartenders in Shanghai,
and sort of forcing them to taste the product.OF: Oh my word.
FW (19:36):
And bless them, it's an amazing community. So thank you for everybody who did that. And
so we spent a lot of time getting feedbackfrom all of the bartenders. But it was pretty
organic, the evolution of Peddlers, in termsof like going from recipe development, hustling
around bars, getting product feedback. Andthen when we were finally in a position to
(19:59):
sell product, it felt like an environmentwhere you could get out and do that. And it
would be something which people were quiteexcited about. For a long time, we would be
hand-delivering all of the gin. So it wouldbe a matter of loading up the scooter with
as many boxes of gin as you could get. Myrecord was nine boxes of gin on a scooter.
(20:20):
So I was just thinking about it before, itwas like three in the footwell, and then another
three on top of those. And then you wouldstack - in a row going forward - another three.
OF (20:29):
This is Boxes. FW
Which means how many bottles? FW
OK. Funny, because until now we haven't talked about the name of your gin. But this
makes me think about the name Peddlers. Goingfrom bar to bar, selling gin.
FW (20:46):
Exactly. OF
called it Peddlers. This must be part of yourthinking behind the brand.
Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, we’re literally just peddling gin around Shanghai.
There's obviously like a lot of hustle inthe name there. But I also feel like it's
really true for Shanghai in general. It'salways been a very commercial city, a trading
(21:06):
hub. That to us really captured the idea ofthe hustle and the bustle, and people selling
things from all over the world in Shanghai.And certainly driving around motorbikes overloaded
with gin also felt like it was part of that.OF: Oh, absolutely. I always like the start-up
stories. But let's fast forward to today,then. So what is the process now? I'm guessing
(21:27):
you're still not going bar to bar? Or is thatstill part of the way that you sell your gin?
I think that's always going to be part of the alcohol industry.
OF (21:36):
Oh. FW
a really great team. So we have more peoplewho can help out, including people who would
be visiting bars quite a lot. Shanghai waswhere we started. But since then we've grown
throughout China. So we've got staff in Beijingand in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]. Distributors,
in general, throughout China have been fundamentalin scaling.
(22:00):
What is it now that takes up most of your brain space?
FW (22:03):
Right now? So over the past 18 months, we have expanded a lot throughout China. And
we've also scaled overseas. When we firstapplied for our export licence, they didn't
have a category for gin export. So we hadto sort of create one.
OF (22:22):
Nice! Well, thank you so much Fergus. I mean, what you do is under the radar for
someone who is a consumer like me. So you'vebeen very patient, as I've asked you very
basic questions about how you distil gin.But the story is a great one. You know, we've
been in Shanghai for a similar length of time,and I've seen your product grow. And I've
(22:43):
always enjoyed it. And so I'm looking forwardnow to somebody telling me one day “Oh,
I just had this gin. I heard it’s from China.”And I’ll be like “Yes, I know the guy.
I've been drinking that gin for eight yearsalready”.
FW (22:54):
That'd be awesome. I'd love that, Oscar. OF
Thank you so much for having me. OF
2.FW: Sure.
[Part 2]OF: I wonder if I had actually brought some
gin to this recording, whether it would havebeen a different level of conversation or
not.FW: I don't think alcohol is necessarily a
(23:15):
great input into an interview that's beingrecorded.
OF (23:18):
All right, let's jump into the 10 questions. These are the same 10 questions that I ask
everyone who is on the podcast. And I willstart with Question 1, which is from Shanghai
Daily (23:29):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
FW (23:33):
So, I was fascinated when I learned that there are over a million people in China who
live in caves.OF: What, no.
Yeah! OF
Yeah, heaps of people live in caves. OF
in caves. And then the city grew and developed,and then they rehoused them into apartment
blocks in the city. But even now, there arestill people?
(23:55):
Yeah. OF
research, for both of us. Because I do wantto know the story now. I mean, I guess it's
possible.FW: Yeah.
OF (24:03):
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone
in Chinese?FW: I would have to go with one of the first
phrases that I learnt in Chinese which was‘忙好，太忙不好 [máng hǎo, tàimáng
bùhǎo]’.OF: 忙好，太忙不好 [Máng hǎo, tàimáng
bùhǎo].FW: Yeah. Which means ‘being busy is good,
but being too busy is not good’. The longerI've spent in China, the more that applies
(24:25):
to life in China.OF: What was the context in which you learnt
that? Is that actually a phrase that peoplesay?
FW (24:29):
Well, I certainly say it. So I guess if that includes me, then yes.
OF (24:33):
I mean, I hear it in the context of ‘太忙了 [Tàimángle]’ or 忙死了 [Mángsǐle],
like people complaining that they're too busy.But I haven't heard it in that context.
FW (24:40):
Yeah well when I was taught it, I was definitely taught it as if it was like a phrase.
OF (24:43):
Yeah. FW
were like “Yeah, people say this all thetime.” Just this assumption that your resting
status should be ‘busy’.OF: Oh I see. That's the default position.
FW (24:55):
Your default position is busy. OF
Like, presumably, there are still momentswhere you are ‘太忙了 [tàimángle]’.
To be honest, the hustle is… OF
Daily, yeah. But I really enjoy choosing my own work hours, and deciding where I want
to focus.OF: Well that's actually quite mature. Because
usually when it’s your own business, thereis no off and on. Like, you’re full-on the
(25:17):
whole time. Because of the way you work withbars, do you tend to work late evenings? Or
do you tend to have regular working hoursduring the day?
It probably skews late. But it still starts pretty early. I mean, it's not just going
to bars.OF: Yes.
But I mean, I go.. I go to quite a lot of bars.
OF (25:37):
I've seen you in a few of them, too. FW
Retreats (25:45):
What's your favourite destination within China?
FW (25:48):
I really enjoy 成都 [Chéngdū]. I've had some really great trips there. And the
F&B industry there is awesome. They've gotthese amazing underground nightclubs, which
are just in random apartment buildings.OF: Part of that makes me feel “OK, it’s
in a developing stage, which Shanghai mayhave been like a few years ago”. But the
(26:12):
other part is 成都 [Chéngdū] innatelyhas this kind of offbeat coolness which I
think Shanghai never would have had. Right,do you agree with that?
There's something about 成都 [Chéngdū], yeah. They're sort of coming at life from
a slightly different direction.OF: Right. Yeah, I'm wasting my time in Shanghai.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
(26:32):
I think I would miss ‘China speed’. I really enjoy it. That feeling of progress
is really tangible.OF: And then what would you miss the least?
The attitude to queuing when people get off aeroplanes here?
OF (26:47):
Oh right. FW
already been stressful, and as soon as itlands… that rush to the front.
There’s a funny connection I'm making with somebody else in the podcast, it was
Abe Deyo from Season 01, he actually was atour manager for indie groups. He would miss
the way that people disembark off planes themost.
FW (27:10):
Really? OF
appreciates the efficiency of everyone goingto every single last gap. So that when the
doors do open, everyone is out.FW: I’d be curious to know the time saved
by doing that.OF: But it's the same as you. Like, you're
saying that you like the fast pace. This is‘China speed’. But then in this particular
situation, ‘China speed’ works againstyou.
(27:32):
Yeah, I find that there's something about that which gets me.
OF (27:36):
I don't know where I actually land on this, because I think I've got used to it.
Maybe I'm also… Like, I'm not pushing, butwhen it's my turn, zip I'm out.
FW (27:44):
Yeah. OF
you about life in China?FW: Yes, the variety of dried meat snacks.
OF (27:52):
Oh! FW
there was a dried meat snack which was a debonedduck foot, shrink-wrapped in plastic.
Yes. FW
You never know, maybe it's got a very very nice texture. I agree, I can picture
what you mean now. Because they're shrink-wrapped,and you can make out exactly what the thing
(28:14):
is.FW: Yeah.
Like, in the West in general, we sanitise our meat. It's just slabs of meat, and you
can't tell where it came from.FW: Yeah it’s true.
You can’t even tell what animal, right? Here, you know exactly what part. You can
see it blinking at you.FW: Yeah.
Yes. Apart from the duck feet, what other ones do you remember?
FW (28:33):
The duck heads. And they've always been cut in half.
OF (28:36):
Oh, no. FW
I don't think I have. FW
This is possibly because you go to 成都 [Chéngdū] a lot. A lot of these snack are
very 四川 [Sìchuān], aren't they?FW: I'm not sure. But usually I'll spot them
in a train station somewhere. And all youwant is a sandwich or something familiar,
but instead… two entire rows of meat snacks.OF: Yeah. Next time buy one, try it, take
(29:03):
a photo, and send it to me. If you’re tryingto persuade us to drink your gin, with all
your fancy-pants ingredients and your Buddha’shand or whatnot…
FW (29:11):
If you make a dried meat snack company Oscar, then I'll eat the duck.
OF (29:16):
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat, to drink, or to hang out?FW: So there are an amazing selection of places
in Shanghai to go. And I was looking throughwhat people have said previously. And so as
to not repeat previous answers, I would sayUnion Trading Company.
(29:38):
Oh, that's a great choice. Tell me about that place.
FW (29:42):
So that was started by a guy named 遥 [Yáo] a while ago now, probably like seven
years ago. So it's been around for a longtime, in Shanghai years. And it very much
feels like a neighbourhood cosy bar. It'sgot like a long wooden top.
OF (29:56):
Yes. FW
Yes, it looks local, but the drinks that they serve are elevated.
FW (30:03):
Yeah, they recently got voted maybe the 49th best bar in the world.
OF (30:08):
Wow. FW
It's unbelievable really, because it's a very unassuming place.
FW (30:14):
Yeah. I think the judges, whoever they are, must take those sort of things into account.
You know, it's the drinks, it's the service,it’s the ambience of the place. And those
guys deserve it, it’s a great spot.OF: Where in your story do they fit in? Like,
when you were pounding the streets of Shanghai,were they early in your story?
They definitely were. OF
Yeah 遥 [Yáo] was a big supporter of what we were doing. And he helped us with
(30:39):
a bunch of events in there. And those guysare all friends.
OF (30:42):
Oh, nice. It's a hard question for you. Because even as you say that, you're ostracising
the other 99 bars that you've also got a goodrelationship with.
FW (30:50):
Yeah, there's a long list of shout-outs there.
OF (30:53):
Yeah. What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
FW (30:58):
The worst purchase was a sleeping bag. OF
And I was buying it for some sort of like trip into 四川 [Sìchuān]. And last-minute
packing, I got something from the fake markets,a sleeping bag. And I pulled it out on the
first night and it was cold, and we're stayingat various hostels. And after about half an
hour of lying on it, it got quite scratchy.And like totally disappeared into nothing.
(31:23):
So it was a little bit bulky, and then itsort of just flattened.
OF (31:26):
So you’re lying on just one layer of fibre, basically.
FW (31:29):
Well, I was curious as to actually what I was lying on, because it was so scratchy.
And so I cut open a segment of it, and itwas just floor sweepings.
OF (31:38):
Oh my god. Oh wow. FW
there.OF: See, if you go to the fake markets, you're
gonna get some fake ****, Fergus.FW: Exactly. It was definitely not an expensive
sleeping bag.OF: Eurgh, you had to say toenails, why did
you say toenails? Gross. Alright, the nextquestion, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
FW (32:06):
I think my favourite WeChat sticker is the tumbleweed.
OF (32:10):
Oh yes. FW
or something. And then slowly a tumbleweedgoes from right to left across the picture.
I think it's a good one for when people justignore you.
Totally. FW
group and no-one says anything. It's justlike, yeah, tumbleweeds.
(32:31):
Yes. Usually, it's taking the piss out of someone who hasn't got a reply, right?
FW (32:35):
Yeah. OF
If somebody hasn't replied to you, you canjust send that.
Well, I mean, I would probably not send that in, like…
OF (32:44):
To a client? FW
aggressive with itOF: Yeah, it's a good one, this one. I have
it, but I tell you what, I am too scared touse it. Because it feels like I'm trying to
really guilt you into replying.FW: I'm not trying to throw down too much
guilt with that. It's more just like a reminderthat I'm sitting here.
Alright, good. Next question, what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
FW (33:07):
That would be ‘Stan’ by Eminem. OF
I don't know, I just know that song quite well. It's not like I'm a really big Eminem
fan either, but…OF: That’s not the one with Dido, is it?
It is the one with Dido. OF
Yeah, so it works quite well as a duet. OF
No, usually I'll recruit someone to sing the girl’s part, and then just crush the
(33:29):
rap.OF: OK.
I mean, that's the whole point of KTV, right? It’s like a bit of a performance.
OF (33:36):
Yes. All right. And finally - and this comes from JustPod, which is the company that
provides the studio, which we're not in today,as anyone listening can probably guess - what
or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
FW (33:52):
You know, I gotta say that it is the entrepreneur community in Shanghai, and across China. I
think that that was a really important partof allowing us as a company to go from zero
to wherever we are now. And just the amountof support that was just out there and goodwill,
just people buying into what you're doing,and being excited and happy and not dismissive
(34:18):
of what you're trying to do. And when whatyou're doing is like hand-carrying gin around
different bars, you can feel as if you'rejust “What am I doing?”
OF (34:27):
“What the hell?” FW
lot with entrepreneurs. And Shanghai was areally positive place to be for it.
Yeah. And these are people who you can get advice from, just by giving them a bit
of gin now and again.FW: Yeah, just take them for like three or
four martinis, and…OF: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for that
Fergus. It's good to have your story. It'sgood to have you as a Kiwi, but someone who
(34:51):
is passionate about building a Chinese brand.And now not just a Chinese brand in China,
but one that you're starting to sell overseas.I hope you continue to experiment with these
different flavours, and I look forward totasting the next iteration of Peddlers.
FW (35:05):
Well thank you very much, Oscar. I appreciate that goodwill. And I hope so too.
OF (35:10):
Before you go let me ask you one final thing, which is
in China, who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
FW (35:19):
So there's a guy I'm friends with called Graeme Kennedy. He's a photographer, he takes
amazing photographs and videos from all overChina. He used to be a war journalist.
OF (35:33):
Oh. FW
And he does some of the coolest trips in China.They make me so jealous, he goes to some amazing
places. So I think he'd have a really interestingperspective on his time here.
Oh, very cool. Has he accompanied you to some of your trips when you're visiting
your suppliers in rural 四川 [Sìchuān]?FW: He has, yes. Yeah, he's been along for
(35:53):
the ride.OF: Oh nice. I look forward to having that
chat with Graeme. If there was one questionthat you would ask Graeme on the podcast,
what question would you ask him?FW: It would probably be "What was his most
uncomfortable photoshoot?”OF: Oh, that's a great one. Hopefully it wasn't
on your trip, was it?FW: I don't think so.
(36:15):
Thank you so much again, Fergus. FW
me.
[Outro]OF: First things first, I tried to research
the exact number of people in China who stilllive in caves. Actually some websites were
saying that over 30 million people live incaves! But then I noticed that the articles
(36:36):
were written over ten years ago, so who knowswhat has changed since then. If anyone out
there has any up-to-date information, thenplease get in touch, I want to know for sure.
Yes, I just said 佛手 [Fóshǒu], whichis the Chinese name for the crazy fruit Buddha’s
hand. To see photos of that, as well as Fergus’object, his favourite WeChat sticker, and
(37:01):
loads more goodies, as always please findme on Instagram at @oscology and everywhere
else by searching for mosaicofchina. If you’rein one of the WeChat listeners groups, there’s
a bonus image for you, which is a QR codethat you can use to get 20% off your next
order of Peddlers Gin, courtesy of Fergus.
(37:23):
I’m excited to talk about the connectionsto previous episodes. Yes, all this talk of
四川 [Sìchuān] peppers links us back tothe favourite China fact of the street food
expert Jamie BARYS from Season 02 Episode02, so please go back there to listen out
for that. Yes, there’s a connection withsleeping bags back to the clean energy entrepreneur
(37:46):
Alex SHOER from Season 02 Episode 11. Butthe most fun connection concerns the part
of today’s episode when Fergus was speculatingabout the judges who named Union Trading Company
one of the world’s 50 top bars. Well wehad the judge on the podcast last season.
So go back to the episode with Crystyl MOfrom Season 02 Episode 26, Crystyl is the
(38:12):
China Academy Chair at ‘The World’s 50Best’.
Before we come to the catch-up interview,as always there is of course an extra 10-15
minutes from my conversation with Fergus inthe PREMIUM version of the show. Head to the
Mosaic of China website to follow the instructionson how to subscribe. Here are a few clips...
(38:32):
[Clip 1]OF: After a few gins you're a bit louder,
are you?FW: Er, it depends who you ask.
[Clip 2]FW: What sort of yeast you're using makes
quite a big difference to what the final tasteis.
Right. [Clip 3]
FW (38:45):
It was so stressful, I think I lost several years of my life at the airport.
[Clip 4]OF: Well, which grains did you use? Is that
a trade secret?FW: No, that's OK. Yeah, we use **** as a
base spirit.OF: OK.
[Clip 5]FW: One particular salty old Frenchman finished
it with “Your business is going to fail,because nobody will ever buy Chinese alcohol”.
(39:05):
[Clip 6]FW: Even what time of year you source the
ingredients, it makes a really really bigdifference to the flavour.
[Clip 7]OF: It’s not a cool word.
It’s definitely not cool. But you'd be happily uncool.
OF (39:17):
Believe me, I appreciate the uncoolness. [End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. You heard his voice earlier
on in today’s episode (39:27):
Sean Harmon is coming up for a quick catch-up chat, since he was
the one who nominated Fergus from last Season.And I'll see you again next time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: There he is! Hello Sean.
SH (39:51):
Hey, Oscar. OF
Likewise. How have you been? It's been a long time.
OF (39:56):
It has been a long time. And we are talking remotely, which is one of the biggest updates
since we last talked - on mic at least - 18months ago. So where are you right now?
SH (40:09):
I am in Hong Kong. Quite a life change. I was nine and a half years based in Shanghai.
It was a great run, I loved Shanghai. I mean,I was supposed to be going back and forth
- Hong Kong to Shanghai - you know, everyother week, sort of thing. But obviously COVID
kind of got in the way of that. So my wiferelocated first, she moved in January of last
(40:29):
year. And then last year, I was kind of livingbetween two cities. I did five weeks of quarantine
in total last year, going back and forth.But since then in January, we actually had
a baby. So I haven't been up to the mainlandsince the baby was born, we've obviously had
our hands full. And plus, as you know, Shanghaihas been going through a bit of a rough time
lately as well.OF: Well, I should preface this by saying
(40:52):
exactly what you do, for those people whodidn't hear our original episode. You're the
General Manager for Greater China of DuvelMoortgat, the beer brand from Belgium. And
I think Vedett is the brand most of us wouldknow, in Shanghai at least. I tell you what
I do still have - and it's right in frontof me now - it is your object that you brought,
(41:13):
which was the bottle of Vedett with my faceon it.
Fun! But that’s actually not a great thing. By now it should be an empty bottle.
But, you know, I’ll give you a pass.OF: Well, you gave me six bottles, and five
are empty. So…SH: OK, there we go.
OF (41:26):
There you go. It feeds my ego. And what more do you need? Despite moving to Hong Kong,
your role actually hasn't changed. So tellme about that.
SH (41:36):
I mean, I think that not being able to just hop over when needed is a bit frustrating,
to be honest with you. Because, you know,sometimes there's an event or there’s a
client meeting, where you want to be ableto hop on a plane and go. And right now, it’s
what, seven plus three, so a 10-day time period.But for a long time, it was 14 or 21 days
to enter. So that's been frustrating. Butonce the border is open, I believe from an
(42:01):
efficiency perspective, it'll be easy. Aslong as the border is open.
OF (42:05):
Yeah. “I’ll have a meeting with you. Could you do it 22 days from now, please?”
Yeah.SH: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Well, now that you are in Hong Kong, it makes me think about the question I asked
you about life on mainland China, which wasabout what you would miss the most and miss
the least if you left the Chinese mainland.So what you did say was that you would miss
(42:29):
the energy. And what you said that you wouldn'tmiss was the pollution. So now that you've
been out for over a year, what is it thatyou miss the most and miss the least?
SH (42:38):
That's a good question. I mean, the energy… I think I still get it. I'm still talking
to people in China every day. I'm still verymuch in a metropolis. It's still an Asian
mega city. I think when I said pollution,it was also about noise pollution, if I remember?
OF (42:53):
Correct, correct. SH
I would say the access to nature… I grewup near Miami, so Fort Lauderdale, you have
a beach right there, you're living with abalance of outdoor life. And Hong Kong, you
very much have this balance. Hiking or trail-runningor beaches, you do have a better balance with
nature. Where in Shanghai, it’s a littlebit tough to get out of the city.
(43:15):
Yes, absolutely. You had to go to the likes of 莫干山 [Mògànshān] to actually
be in nature. It's like a two hour train ride.SH: Yeah.
You’re absolutely right, that’s the one thing that was the biggest struggle when
I left Hong Kong to come here. Well, thankyou so much for this catch-up. And I look
forward to hopefully seeing you in personeither in Hong Kong or Shanghai or god knows
(43:35):
where. See you, man.SH: Fingers crossed. Take care.
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