August 9, 2021 • 40 mins
Crystyl Mo has been reporting on the world of restaurants in China for over twenty years, so she has borne witness to the phenomenal growth of the modern Chinese fine dining experience. Now, as an Academy Chair at The World's 50 Best Restaurants, she has also been able to contextualise China's culinary scene on the global stage, and she shares some of her insights in today's episode. Apart from that, Crystyl is an American national who has been stranded for 18 months outside her home of China, and Oscar is a British national who has been confined within the borders of China for the same period. So in the second half of the conversation, they can’t help but discuss some of the parallels and contrasts between British, American and Chinese cultures. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Michael Zee from Season 01 Episode 07. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-07-michael-zee). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:21 - Part 1 19:35 - Part 2 29:56 - Outro 33:11 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-26-crystyl-mo.
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(00:02):
[Trailer]CM: Why isn't there
a Gordon Ramsay of China?OF: Oh.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We talked briefly in last week’s episode with thefire engineer Michael Kinsey about the delights
(00:22):
of British cuisine. But for today’s episodewe’re moving on from the likes of steak and
kidney pie with baked beans on the side, to theequally majestic world of global fine dining.
Today’s episode is with Crystyl Mo, whois not only an expert in gourmet cuisine,
but is also a coach. And maybe it’s because ofthis that our conversation today spans not only
(00:44):
the life of a professional foodie, but also thestory that has got Crystyl to where she is today,
the China Academy Chair at TheWorld's 50 Best Restaurants,
one of the most highly sought-afterpositions in the world of food.
As part of this story, we talk a lot aboutCrystyl’s somewhat unconventional childhood.
But I think the impression weleave is a little unbalanced,
(01:06):
so I wanted to add this quickdisclaimer right from the start
that Crystyl did feel incredible loveand devotion from her parents as a child.
There are some other updates aboutCrystyl that I need to mention,
but I’ll save those until the end ofthe episode. So let’s get on with it.
[Part 1]OF: So I'm here with
Crystyl Mo, thank you so much, Crystyl.CM: Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
OF (01:29):
Me too. “You are Crystyl Mo, and you are…” How would I complete that sentence?
CM (01:34):
Foremost, right now, I am a life coach and public speaker on issues around self-awareness
and mindfulness and meditation, andhow that overlaps with my other career,
which is in food and fine dining and restaurants.OF: Got it. And it reminded me of Michael Zee,
(01:55):
who was the person who introduced you.CM: Instagram celebrity Michael Zee,
love you.OF: Yes.
[Start of Audio Clip]Michael ZEE: I would like to hear
more from my friend Crystyl Mo. She isthe chair of Asia's 50 best restaurants.
She's extremely eloquent, and she's just beensomeone that I've immediately clicked with.
(02:16):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: How did you meet Michael?
We must have crossed paths several times at food events. He's just the ultimate food writer
and food celebrity. And beyond that, we have avery similar worldview politically and culturally.
And so we just totally hit it off. I adorehim. I don't get to spend enough time with him,
certainly not now. He just really knows his stuff.OF: Absolutely. Well, before we get any further,
(02:44):
the first question I would ask youis, what object do you have with you
that in some way represents what you do in China?CM: Like I said, I work in food. And I am the
Academy Chair for The World’s 50 Best Restaurants,which is a very prestigious role. So in order to
evoke that - and my career for 15 years, asa food journalist - I chose for my object a
(03:09):
knife, which represents, you know, foodand cooking and dining. And also pain and
separation, which was a part of being an expatfor over 20 years, being cut off. Voluntarily,
but also in some way psychologically forced to,because I was escaping from the difficult parts of
(03:34):
my childhood, and my relationship with my parents.So there's a lot going on with this knife.
And this happens to be my mother's knife,which she's had for many many years,
which I wouldn't have had if I was still in China.OF: Wow.
So that's what I've chosen. OF
right now? Because you have beenstranded outside of China, right?
I have been stranded outside of China. I am in my childhood home - in Cambridge,
(03:59):
Massachusetts - and I'm sitting here in mychildhood room, actually. This is where I
slept from age five to when I went to college,16, I went to college early. So this is really
interesting. And behind me is one of my mother'spaintings, my mother is an artist and a writer.
OF (04:18):
Right. CM
is sleeping in a loft above my head.[Distant Voice]: I am not sleeping.
CM (04:23):
Oh, she's not sleeping. OF
that you were part of the ‘Top 50 Restaurants,’so could you explain what that situation is?
So The World's 50 Best Restaurants is an organisation that started I think about
18 years ago in London. It was started on alark by two young guys who wanted to create
(04:47):
an award list for restaurants that wasn'tso stuffy and traditional like Michelin,
but represented the kind of restaurantsand food that young people wanted to eat,
but was still an incredible experience. So theywere seeking a new Academy Chair for China, and
I had been a food journalist in China for about15 years, and my name was suggested to them,
(05:09):
they contacted me. I hadn't really known verymuch about The World's 50 Best Restaurants when
they wrote me their first email. I didn'treally know what it was, I was very very
busy. I think I was still the food editor forTime Out Shanghai, producing a 16-page section
every month and just flat out. And I was like “Ireally don't need another volunteer position”.
(05:29):
So I never replied to them. And then they wroteme three more times. And then finally the woman
who had recommended me called me and was like“Crystyl, can you please just return their email?”
I was just like "Fine, I'll reply”. And then wehad a call. Anyways, it was a funny story because
I was quite clueless about the opportunity thatwas presented to me. And eventually I learned
that it was, you know, one of the most highlysought-after positions you could possibly have in
(05:54):
the world of food. And you are suddenly invitedto restaurants and events all over the world.
OF (06:01):
Right. CM
chefs. I mean, it's been an astonishing ride.OF: Well, you know, you played hard-to-get
Crystyl, it's a lesson that we can all learn.CM: Yes. They actually loved it. They were
definitely far more interested, because they
were like “Wait, you don't want to do this?”OF: Maybe it's similar to how I got you onto
(06:22):
Mosaic of China, but that’s probably elevatingmy status a little bit too high, I think.
Wonderful, so what does that roleentail for you on a practical level?
CM (06:32):
OK, well, right now, because of COVID, we are not doing our regular events. But during
the three years when we were, I would probablyonce or twice a month travel to visit incredible
chefs and restaurants around the world.OF: I'm assuming that you also visit
chefs and restaurants within China too, right?CM: Yes, absolutely. Previous to being the Academy
(06:57):
Chair, I focused almost exclusively on domesticchefs and restaurants. In fact, when I discover a
great chef in China, I would say it is the mostthrilling, because there are not enough chefs
at that level in China. So if I discover onein China, it's mind-blowing. Why isn't there a
Gordon Ramsay of China? Why isn't there aMassimo Bottura? Why isn't there a Rene Redzepi?
(07:22):
With a country of over a billion people, and 5,000years of history, and the most celebrated cuisines
in the world - recognised by chefs - where areour leaders? And the thing is, we don't have a
single mainland Chinese chef who's known globally.Why is that? And there are many reasons, but one
(07:42):
crucial one is that we had a civil war, and wehad the Cultural Revolution. And so people did not
continue this legacy of fine dining or exquisitecuisine during that time. And people still do not
think of being a chef as a respected career. Soif you are a brilliant person who gets into a
(08:08):
top university, you will definitely not becomea chef. And the type of people who become chefs
are - like my husband - people who were failingout of school. So basically, when he was little he
was a very poor student, because he had a horribleabusive teacher. And so his choices were basically
some kind of vocational school or the army. Andhe chose to go to a culinary school, not because
(08:33):
he had any interest in food or cooking, it wasbasically just a way to make a living. And for
most chefs of his generation - and also even now- that is their story. They are not passionate
about food. As soon as they get off work, theygo home and make, you know, 方便面 [fāngbiànmiàn].
OF (08:52):
How interesting. Because that explains, I think, the experience that someone like me
would have maybe going to a fancy restaurantin China. Where you do get really good food,
but then there's often that disconnect, right?Where you can tell that the waiter there
doesn't really care about what he's serving you.CM: Right, even though the food might taste great,
(09:13):
but they're not creating a fine dining experience.The chef is not obsessed with every ingredient,
the chef is not thinking “I can't wait to wowevery diner”. There are definitely becoming
more and more.OF: For sure.
CM (09:25):
But the question of why there aren't already hundreds of well-known chefs, is that the social
status of chefs is still very low. Therefore, itcreates this vacuum of talent in the F&B industry.
Thanks to the booming economy in China over thepast 20 years, many chefs from all over the world
(09:46):
came to Shanghai - Shanghai definitely isthe heart of fine dining in China - to open
their own restaurants. And they trained a lot oflocal chefs, and they also just brought the idea
that being a chef could be a very prestigiouscareer. You can be considered an artist, you
can be considered a thought leader in the greatersociety, not just in your one restaurant. And so
(10:09):
there are starting to be Chinese chefs who wereinfluenced by that, who were inspired by that.
So you have five-star hotels, which were someof the first to open fine dining restaurants.
And so this created an F&B scene which I thinkis extremely sophisticated, and can compare with
many other top-level cities around the world.OF: Right. And what you're describing is not
(10:33):
dissimilar to what happened in the UK. You know,you mentioned Gordon Ramsay, it was only him and
his predecessors over the last 20-30 years thatdid the same thing in the UK. Except in the UK,
you know, we had a cuisine which mostpeople across the world would laugh at.
If we can say that there are thelikes of Gordon Ramsay from the UK,
then it's only logical that there shouldbe the same coming up from China, right?
(10:55):
It is inevitable. OF
are this writer here in China, knowing about thefood scene, knowing about restaurants. But how did
that come about? Were you always in this world?CM: Not always. I had this romantic idea that
I wanted to be a writer. And it's hard toget paid as a writer. So one shortcut is to
(11:18):
become a journalist where - at the time at least- journalists could make a living. Now it's very
difficult, but at that time traditional media wasstill booming. I was graduating from a UC Berkeley
Chinese training programme at 清华 [‘Tsinghua’]in Beijing. And I was in the right place at
the right time, because the sleeping dragonwas awakening, and everyone wanted to know
(11:40):
what was going on in this mysterious country ofChina. I got a job as a China correspondent for
one of the major Time Warner magazines in theregion, it was called Asiaweek. At that time,
it was a very influential publication. And,beginning of 2002, I wanted to go freelance,
(12:01):
so I started pitching stories to travel magazines.And when you write for a travel magazine, you
always end up writing about food, because that'swhat people do when they travel, they want to know
where to go out to eat. And that was how I startedto write about food, serendipitously. I just
started writing a bit about restaurants, and asI started writing about restaurants, I discovered
that I knew a lot about food and cooking. Andthat was from my childhood, growing up with
(12:25):
a creative artist chef mother, an organic garden,and making everything from scratch. From grinding
our own wheat to make bread, to making tofu, tonever having any processed food in the house.
And so the fact that I grew up learning aboutthat way of cooking actually gave me a huge
(12:45):
advantage in writing about the trendy ways ofcooking now. I'm very grateful to my mother for
being this super far-out home cook.OF: Let's go into that story then,
because obviously you do have some Asian ancestry,I can tell of course. What is your family's story?
My mother is originally from Shanghai. She came to the U.S. when she was a teenager. My
(13:08):
father's from New York. And they grew up inthese very opposite families, in some ways.
My mother was very poor, my father was born intoa very wealthy New York family. But both of them
had extremely traumatic childhoods,with parents who were either absent or
(13:29):
completely absorbed in other parts of their lives.OF: Interesting. And so did that also transfer to
your childhood, or was it relatively happy?CM: I would say it was relatively happy.
‘Relative’ being the key term. They were bothcarrying the tragedies of their own childhoods.
A lot of my parents’ pain was in the atmosphereof the home. And I carried that with me very
(13:56):
much. And I was also treated like an adult fromthe time I could walk around. In some ways,
I loved that, I had total independence.But I also had no guidance. For example,
from the time I was five, I was going on thesubway by myself, nobody to make me breakfast,
nobody to dress me, I would take myself toschool. We had a bare-bones house with no heat
(14:21):
in Boston, so I was freezing all winter long, Icouldn't sleep. I had no-one to take care of me,
I took care of myself. My mother cooked a lot, wehad wonderful food, I certainly wasn't starving.
But I had rags for clothes, I never had a decenthaircut. I had a lot of crazy people living in
my house, because my father is this incredibleJesus-like figure who wants to save everyone,
(14:45):
from schizophrenic people to alcoholics anddrug addicts, to just very emotionally damaged
people who we would have in the home all thetime, which drove my mother absolutely crazy.
It was a very chaotic childhood. In retrospect,I realise how unsafe I felt, although I did feel
love from my parents, and they were certainlynever intentionally abusive. They didn't scream
(15:10):
at me, they didn't beat me, they respectedme deeply. But they respected me as an adult,
to just get everything done on my own.OF: Gosh. So I'm guessing that with that
background, you were destined to be somewhatof a loner. Like, I'm just thinking about how
you could possibly fit into a corporation?Do you have a visceral reaction against that
(15:35):
kind of mainstream life? Or actually,do you long for that kind of life?
That is a good question. I don't long for that life. I would say I'm pretty anti-establishment
and anti-mainstream. The biggest reasonthough, that I don't fit into corporate life,
is that I am nocturnal.OF: Oh.
(15:56):
And I operate on a nighttime schedule. My whole life I’ve been nocturnal,
my mother's nocturnal, her mother wasnocturnal. So it is very hard for me to
wake up and go to an office in the morning.OF: Goodness. I've never heard somebody
give themselves that title. I've heardpeople who are like “Oh yeah, I tend to
(16:16):
function better in the evenings. I'm a bitof a night owl.” But you are wholeheartedly
embracing this as a way of life, are you?CM: I am. And as a coach, one of the things I
studied - learning more about bio-individuality- is that we don't need to go by when the sun
comes up and goes down. When you realisewhat your ideal circadian rhythm is,
(16:37):
it gives you a lot more power. For a long time,I was seen as almost shameful to not wake up in
the morning in this society, people would reallylook down on that. And I'd always try to hide that
fact. So people will be like “Oh, I'll call youtomorrow at nine” and I'd be like “Oh, I'm busy”.
Now I'm like “I will be asleep”. Instead of havingsome kind of shame around that. I get as much - if
not more - done each day as anyone else. Ijust do it during different hours of the day.
OF (17:02):
Well, I can definitely see the strands between what you do now and your previous
life. And thank you so much for sharing that partof your story. How did, then, you parlay this into
what you're doing now in terms of coaching? Isit because when you deal with people who work
in the restaurant industry, the archetype is thatthere are very highly-strung chefs. They are these
(17:27):
angry, abusive, short-tempered, impatientpeople. Is that just me creating a silly
analogy? Or is that where it first came from?CM: It's not, but there is a relationship. Chefs
have definitely lots of psychological issues, theyhave a lot of relationship issues, they don't see
their family enough. There are so many divorcedchefs, or chefs who never see their kids. My
(17:48):
epiphany was not sudden, but what I came upon was,I was going to these very very crazy exclusive
experiences at restaurants around the world, whereliterally you will be picked up from the airport
in a limo, and then taken somewhere - maybe byhelicopter - to this $1,000 meal with caviar and
(18:11):
wine pairings, and luxury for the sake of luxury.And that didn't feel like my purpose. And so
that's when I started thinking “I don't know ifI want to continue doing this. I want something
that really resonates with my purpose here, duringthis short time I have on the planet, which is to
help other people heal and to heal myself”. Hurtpeople hurt people, but healed people heal people.
(18:38):
Nice. CM
say that I'm fully healed. But I want to be onthat journey. And so some chefs started to ask me
to come to their restaurant and give mindfulnessworkshops. And so I gave a workshop at the number
one restaurant in the world - which is calledMirazur, in southern France - on mindfulness,
and on dealing with issues of childhood trauma,even. Like, really asking some hard questions
(19:01):
in a half-day workshop with their staff.OF: Right. That is a great combination,
the idea of using your knowledge of the restaurantindustry to then give them some coaching,
which actually can be relevant in that world. Thatis a great niche to springboard your career into
the next stage. It's nice for you to talk aboutthat, because I think otherwise people would
(19:23):
look at your life - you know, as you said, you'regoing from helicopter to amazing meal - and it is
good to know that there is something else goingon. Thank you so much Crystyl, on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF:
Good, well, Part 2, it is the same 10questions that I ask everyone. Are you ready?
CM (19:43):
I am. OF
What is your favourite China-related fact?CM: My favourite China-related fact is,
the longer you stay in China, the more you realise
how little you know about China.OF: Because you have been then trying
to know how many years?CM: 23 or 24.
OF (20:04):
Ach, is that all? CM
And were you the kind of person who at the beginning were the super expert,
and you thought that you knew everything? Or didyou always have that humility from the start?
CM (20:14):
I never thought about how much I know or don't know. But I have definitely met
many people who feel they know a lot.OF: Yeah. Can you remember one particular
‘aha moment’ where you had this transitionfrom ‘Oh wait, what I thought I knew actually
is 100% the opposite way around’?CM: One interesting thing I learned
is that when I first came to China, I thoughtthat the U.S. was perfect. And so coming to
(20:39):
China and hearing another perspective onthe U.S. - seeing global geopolitics from
outside the U.S. - was a very big ‘aha moment’.OF: Yes, this is when American exceptionalism
clashes with China exceptionalism. Question 2, doyou have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
(21:01):
A phrase that I love is 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], which is a very polite way of saying “So sorry to
trouble you”. And Americans don't really say this,we wouldn't off the cuff kind of say “Oh, I'm so
sorry to trouble you”. But in Chinese, that's verycommon. Like when you ask somebody to do a favour,
or when someone just does something nice for you,can say 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], I'm so sorry to trouble
(21:22):
you. And it's just a very kind and generousrecognition of someone doing something for you.
OF (21:27):
Yes. Although I would take exception to say that the Americans are not polite.
I think Americans can be veryfriendly and polite, of course.
CM (21:34):
Very friendly. OF
politeness as a weapon sometimes.CM: I’m allowed to say that,
but I will agree with you.OF: What is your favourite
destination within China?CM: 云南 [Yúnnán],
and 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’], where it's theSwitzerland of China. Absolutely stunning.
OF (21:54):
Every other person, when answering that question, says 云南 [Yúnnán].
I think I should call this podcast ‘Mosaic of 云南[Yúnnán]’. Yeah, it's something else, isn't it?
CM (22:05):
I would say, if everyone says 云南 [Yúnnán], then that's the right answer. I mean, 云南 [Yúnnán]
is so diverse. I had my honeymoon in西双版纳 [Xīshuāngbǎnnà], which is basically
subtropical, and we were in therain forest in an orchid forest.
And then I've also been to the northern partsaround 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’] up into the snow-capped
mountains, you know, all in one province.OF: Yes, and everything in between. Great,
(22:28):
next question. If you left China - whichto you is actually the reality right now,
hopefully temporarily, and not for muchlonger - what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least? So I shouldreword that to ‘what do you miss the most,
and what do you miss the least?’CM: The people and the people.
So, Chinese are not great as strangers. Americansare very friendly and have a warmth to them, that
(22:58):
you can have some kind of friendly interactionwith a stranger, which I think makes just walking
around the city feel like more of a community.And yet, Chinese - while they can be quite cold
and selfish to strangers - they are so warmand generous as soon as you are on any kind of
(23:21):
friendly terms with them. You go to their house,and they will cook you a banquet and take care of
you. And so that kind of warmth and generosityis something that struck me as a student when I
first went to China and lived in Nanjing. And soI would say that I don't miss being a stranger
in China. But I do miss being a friend.OF: Lovely. And there's quite a theme,
(23:46):
isn't there? Because we're talking about thispoliteness. We're talking about it in the
context of America, UK and China. You could alsothrow in Japan as well. I think the Japanese and
the Brits can be similar with a politeness. Butit's still courteous. What they have in China,
it lacks the courtesy. In many ways,it’s more honest. Because, you know,
(24:06):
the Brits don't care about you as a strangereither. But you really feel it here, don't you?
I wouldn't say I'd exchange it for British strangers either. They're both somewhat cold.
OF (24:18):
Yes. CM
Chinese one, because you know where they stand.OF: Exactly, exactly. On the metro in Shanghai,
you are going to be steamrollered by aChinese stranger. In the metro in London,
you’re not going to have anyone making eye contactwith you. It's a very different kind of rudeness.
CM (24:37):
Right. OF
still surprises you about life in China?CM: No. It feels like home.
OF (24:45):
Yeah. I guess the equivalent would be, is there anything that surprises
you about life in the U.S. in that case?CM: More so. Because I have literally spent
the last half of my life in China. Sobeing here, there are more surprises.
I have been the recipient of so much generosityhere during COVID, and warmth from strangers
(25:09):
who heard my story, and would deliver foodand clothing for my daughter, and a bicycle,
and babysitting. I mean, it's been astonishing.OF: And I've noticed as we've been talking that
sometimes you refer to Shanghai as ‘home’and sometimes you're saying ‘home’ as in
the room you're in now. Do you have thisbifurcated ‘home’ existence? Or actually,
(25:31):
it just depends on where you are?CM: I very much feel that both places are
home. I don't feel more or less comfortable.OF: Nice. Next one's gonna be a hard one for
you. What is your favourite place togo out, to drink or eat or hang out?
CM (25:46):
I'll just say one place that I love, which was a cocktail bar I used to go to every Friday
with my girlfriends for years. And that'sSenator Saloon in the French Concession.
OF (25:58):
Nice. CM
including my signature drink, the sidecar.OF: Oh, my one is the basil gimlet there,
they do a great basil gimlet.CM: Oh yes they do. They do.
And it's just consistent every time. I love thebartenders there. I love the guy who founded it,
David Schroeder, a brilliant American bartenderand specialist. And they also have the most
(26:22):
amazing bar snacks out of any bar.OF: Even the freebie chips they give
you seem to be elevated.CM: Small and perfect.
Nice. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? CM
Oh, I like this. That's very good. CM
(26:43):
Because in WeChat groups,
often people will accidentally send something, orsay something inappropriate. And you just need to
have a sticker for that occasion. It literallyhappens every day. So that's just a fun one.
Can you quickly describe it? CM
just a giant button that says ‘unsee’. Sothis person is just frantically tapping this
(27:08):
button. Unsee unsee unsee unsee. Like, pleasejust take me back to five seconds previous
in time and let me not have seen that thing.OF: I've never seen this used. I love it.
CM (27:18):
I hope you’ll start using it. OF
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CM: I would rather stab my eyes
out with forks than go to KTV.OF: You have obviously been, though.
You haven't been able to avoid it entirely.CM: I really have only been maybe three times
in my early career in China before Irealised that I will never go again.
(27:44):
People who don't get paidto sing, should not sing.
OF (27:47):
What about in your daily life? Like if you're having a shower, if you're whistling down the
street, do you have a song that you like to sing?CM: Well, I'm thinking of a song that nobody
will know. But it's a song by a wonderfulfolk singer, which I've been listening to
a bit more recently. Her name is Catie Curtis,and the song is called ‘Magnolia Street’.
(28:09):
OK CM
songwriter. I love acoustic guitar folk singing.OF: Yes. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you rely on?CM: Well, I do love the more long-form
writing about China in The New Yorker. SoI will read their essays, written by some
(28:32):
of the top writers like Peter Hessler.OF: Well, thank you very much, Crystyl.
CM (28:37):
Thank you, Oscar. It's really been a pleasure. I feel like I
could talk to you for two more hours.OF: Thank you so much. The only question I
would have left to ask you is, out of everyone whoyou know in China, who would you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?CM: I would really love to recommend my dear
(28:57):
friend Ricky Li, who is achild prodigy businessman,
started his first businesses literally as a gradeschooler. He's helped to build a natural gas line
in Seattle. And he opened up an incrediblefine dining restaurant in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn],
where he hired a three-star Michelin chef fromCalifornia to be the head chef, Christopher Kostow
(29:22):
from The Restaurant at Meadowood. He'sbrilliant, he’s very humble, he’s a visionary,
incredible businessman, and also a connoisseur.OF: Wow. Well, I thought that you had a busy
life. It sounds like you've recommendedsomebody who is going to be equally hard
to pin down. Thank you so much.CM: He does schedule his day
in 15-minute increments.OF: Oh wow. OK, gosh. Well,
(29:46):
thank you so much. He sounds fascinating, Ican't wait to meet him. And thank you again,
Crystyl, that was a real pleasure.CM: It's been an incredible honour
to chat with you.
[Outro]OF: At the beginning of today’s
episode I mentioned that there were a few updatesto share since the recording of the conversation.
Well sadly Crystyl is still stranded in the U.S.because family reunion visas are still not being
(30:11):
issued for China. She has been running groupsfor people in this same situation on Facebook
and WeChat this whole time, so please reach outto her personally if you’d like to be added.
She would love to connect with you, orindeed with anyone who enjoyed this episode.
And on a slightly happier note, Crystyl’s husbandwho is Chinese was able to come to the States and
(30:32):
return to China with their daughter Phoenix,who is a dual citizen. This has left Crystyl
with all the more time to focus on the biggestproject that she has run this year, which has been
producing and directing her mother's cooking show,Mother Zen Chef. So if you want to check that out,
head to the transcript for today’s episodeat the Mosaic of China website, where you can
(30:54):
scroll to this part of the conversation for thedirect links on YouTube, Facebook and Patreon.
Speaking of Patreon, that’s one of the threeways that you can also check out the PREMIUM
version of the podcast, which includesan extra 10-15 minutes of extra content
every episode. Here are someclips from today’s show.
[Clip 1]CM: Much to their surprise,
(31:15):
almost every chef came, including Ferran Adriàof El Bulli, a God in the culinary world.
[Clip 2]CM: Ancient ways of cooking, using pickling
and using the whole animal or the whole vegetable.[Clip 3]
The most stereotypically rude and arrogant and condescending service, I wrote a
(31:36):
scathing review for Time Out.[Clip 4]
I have a superpower, which is that I metabolise alcohol very efficiently.
[Clip 5]CM: It's the
‘Oscars’ of food, to have a spot on that listcements you in the firmament of great chefs.
[Clip 6]CM: He was in the kitchen,
I went in the kitchen, I met him there. Basicallylove at first sight, and I was like "Wrap him up,
(31:59):
and I'm taking him home”.[End of Audio Clips]
And finally, you can see all the images fromtoday’s episode on all the usual places, including
photos from Crystyl’s childhood; some from thefirst time she stepped foot in China in 1995;
some shots with her husband, mother and daughter;
and of course there are also great photos ofCrystyl alongside some of the world's top chefs,
(32:21):
including Dan Barber, Rene Redzepi, TheRoca Brothers and Heston Blumenthal.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. A great accompaniment to today’s
show is the interview with the China street foodtour guide Jamie Barys from Season 02 Episode 02.
And you heard his voice at the beginning ofthe show, well you’re about to hear it again,
(32:44):
because coming up is a catch-up recordingwith the Instagram food writer Michael Zee
from Season 01 Episode 07. So be sureto listen to Michael’s original episode
if you haven’t done so already, andI’ll see you back here again next week,
where - who knows - there mightalso be a connection to food…
(33:09):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Michael.MZ: Hello. Back again.
OF (33:17):
Here you are. You're not in the studio, you're at my house this time. For people who didn't
necessarily hear our original interview, you arethe man behind @symmetrybreakfast, the Instagram
account. What was your story during COVID?MZ: I was having a haircut at the beginning of
January 2020. And my barber is from 贵州 [Guìzhōu].And he was saying “Oh have you heard about this
(33:41):
virus in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]?” I was like “Yeah, I saw iton the news”. "That is something we should keep
an eye on”. But I was about to go on holiday toAustralia. And whilst we were in Australia, it all
started of kicking off in China, everything wasstarting to go into lock-down, until we were
kind of watching it and looking at the news everyminute of the day. We got to the end of the two
weeks in Australia, and we just made the decisionto delay returning. So we went to Indonesia. And
(34:06):
then Mark had to go to Europe for work, so we cameto Europe. And seven weeks later, we ended up back
in Shanghai after a lot of our friends said “It'sfine. Just come back”. So I actually came back
before they asked me to quarantine. So I cameback and I just went home. And it was only a few
weeks afterwards that the borders were closed.It's very difficult to be in this position as a
(34:29):
social media ‘share-all' position…OF: That was exactly what
I was going to ask you, yeah.MZ: … When actually my 2020 was pretty good.
Yes. MZ
not to go overboard with “Oh my life’s totallynormal, having a great time”. Because I understand
a lot of people are not in that situation. AndI took a step back from social media. I've been
(34:50):
definitely a lot less on Instagram and socialmedia. and just kind of taking it day by day.
Sometimes it's better just to be quiet.OF: Which is interesting, because during
our original conversation, you were sayinghow there is no job description - you've
made this job yourself - and there's no off-rampeither. You don't know how this is going to end,
(35:10):
you can't pass it off to anyone, you are@symmetrybreakfast. So did this give you a
little bit more insight into that end game?MZ: Absolutely. I think I should have this
escape route. Because ultimately, people gettrapped in social media because it's their income.
I came to China four years ago and I remember myagent emailed me a matter of months later saying
(35:34):
“Are you ready to write a book about China?” AndI was “No, of course I'm not ready”. But then four
years later, “Hmm maybe, yeah.”OF: OK.
MZ (35:42):
OK, I feel I do have a lot of knowledge. I do have a lot of opinions and perspective.
I think I'm ready to do another project, anotherbook or something that's more than just Instagram
and breakfasts.OF: Yes.
And we're leaving Shanghai. Now going to Italy, it’s “How do I continue that energy?”
And I have to just go for it.OF: Are you going to have to
finish everything while you're in China?MZ: I'm definitely putting projects into place
(36:06):
now, with the hope that I'm going to beable to come back in September/October
for research and for planning around thoseprojects. I haven't really seen any significant
research on Anglo-Chinese food. You know, thereis just not the same breadth and depth compared
to American-Chinese food. That is something Ireally want to explore. If I'm going to be back
in Europe, and back in the UK, I can use that tointerrogate my dad about those sorts of stories.
(36:31):
And so I'm excited to see how moving away fromChina physically can actually bring out certain
projects that will enable me to come back.OF: Yes. And of course, you're going from
a country with a very important food cultureto another country with a very important food
culture, right? Do you think that when it comesto Italy, there are going to be some connections
that you haven't thought about?MZ: Oh, at the moment I can
(36:56):
only think about the parallels. They're both veryhyper-local cuisines, very specific to certain
communes or provinces or regions. And they'reboth very much grounded in a sense of provenance
and seasonality. But what I don't see inItalian culture - that is so prevalent in
Chinese food - is this connection to health, andfood as medicine. I don't know if actually any
(37:23):
European culture has such a strong connection tohealth. You know, I'm definitely going to go to
Italy and probably still drink a lot of hot water.OF: Yeah, you can't take that out of you now.
No. OF:
Well, what little tidbits have you learned - Iguess this will be my last question for you - in
the two years since we last met here on mic?MZ: Oh, I think the biggest thing is that for
(37:49):
every stereotype, it's also completely untrue. Youknow, I've been to places like 成都 [Chéngdū] and
you meet people who hate spicy food.OF: Oh right.
And I follow other Chinese food writers - and Western food writers who write about
China - and they say things like“Chinese people don't eat salads”.
With every statement aboutChina, the opposite is true also.
OF (38:12):
Right. MZ
is Chinese and some of the worst food and world isChinese. And there's no right or wrong here. China
is the most beautiful and the ugliest country.People here are the nicest and the meanest.
And you can't make a generalisation.OF: Well, this is the stage you should be,
having been here for four years and on the wayout. You have to be leaving under a cloud of
(38:37):
confusion. Because if you were leaving, like “Oh,I know China” then you're not doing it right,
Michael, right? Why would we eventry and encapsulate a country where,
you meet a nice Chinese person, you meet a badChinese person, just like you would anywhere else.
MZ (38:48):
Anywhere else. OF
and we've talked about the other food influencers…One of them of course is the lady who you refer to
me for Season 02, Crystyl Mo.MZ: Oh, yeah.
OF (38:59):
And it will be alongside Crystyl’s episode that we release this catch-up.
MZ (39:03):
Oh, amazing. OF
since she's been locked out the whole time?MZ: Yeah, I mean, we've only spoken a handful of
times. I mean, I feel terrible for her situation.OF: Yes. And she seems to have a very
philosophical idea about how to live life. I mean,
you have to just get on with it. I believe that'swhat everyone who is in that situation is doing.
Sure. OF
(39:24):
you. It has been great to have you as part ofthis Mosaic. And this is the first catch-up,
I hope there are many more in the future.MZ: Brilliant. Thanks so much for having me.
[Trailer]CM: Why isn't there
a Gordon Ramsay of China?OF: Oh.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We talked briefly in last week’s episode with thefire engineer Michael Kinsey about the delights
(00:22):
of British cuisine. But for today’s episodewe’re moving on from the likes of steak and
kidney pie with baked beans on the side, to theequally majestic world of global fine dining.
Today’s episode is with Crystyl Mo, whois not only an expert in gourmet cuisine,
but is also a coach. And maybe it’s because ofthis that our conversation today spans not only
(00:44):
the life of a professional foodie, but also thestory that has got Crystyl to where she is today,
the China Academy Chair at TheWorld's 50 Best Restaurants,
one of the most highly sought-afterpositions in the world of food.
As part of this story, we talk a lot aboutCrystyl’s somewhat unconventional childhood.
But I think the impression weleave is a little unbalanced,
(01:06):
so I wanted to add this quickdisclaimer right from the start
that Crystyl did feel incredible loveand devotion from her parents as a child.
There are some other updates aboutCrystyl that I need to mention,
but I’ll save those until the end ofthe episode. So let’s get on with it.
[Part 1]OF: So I'm here with
Crystyl Mo, thank you so much, Crystyl.CM: Thank you, I'm excited to be here.
OF (01:29):
Me too. “You are Crystyl Mo, and you are…” How would I complete that sentence?
CM (01:34):
Foremost, right now, I am a life coach and public speaker on issues around self-awareness
and mindfulness and meditation, andhow that overlaps with my other career,
which is in food and fine dining and restaurants.OF: Got it. And it reminded me of Michael Zee,
(01:55):
who was the person who introduced you.CM: Instagram celebrity Michael Zee,
love you.OF: Yes.
[Start of Audio Clip]Michael ZEE: I would like to hear
more from my friend Crystyl Mo. She isthe chair of Asia's 50 best restaurants.
She's extremely eloquent, and she's just beensomeone that I've immediately clicked with.
(02:16):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: How did you meet Michael?
We must have crossed paths several times at food events. He's just the ultimate food writer
and food celebrity. And beyond that, we have avery similar worldview politically and culturally.
And so we just totally hit it off. I adorehim. I don't get to spend enough time with him,
certainly not now. He just really knows his stuff.OF: Absolutely. Well, before we get any further,
(02:44):
the first question I would ask youis, what object do you have with you
that in some way represents what you do in China?CM: Like I said, I work in food. And I am the
Academy Chair for The World’s 50 Best Restaurants,which is a very prestigious role. So in order to
evoke that - and my career for 15 years, asa food journalist - I chose for my object a
(03:09):
knife, which represents, you know, foodand cooking and dining. And also pain and
separation, which was a part of being an expatfor over 20 years, being cut off. Voluntarily,
but also in some way psychologically forced to,because I was escaping from the difficult parts of
(03:34):
my childhood, and my relationship with my parents.So there's a lot going on with this knife.
And this happens to be my mother's knife,which she's had for many many years,
which I wouldn't have had if I was still in China.OF: Wow.
So that's what I've chosen. OF
right now? Because you have beenstranded outside of China, right?
I have been stranded outside of China. I am in my childhood home - in Cambridge,
(03:59):
Massachusetts - and I'm sitting here in mychildhood room, actually. This is where I
slept from age five to when I went to college,16, I went to college early. So this is really
interesting. And behind me is one of my mother'spaintings, my mother is an artist and a writer.
OF (04:18):
Right. CM
is sleeping in a loft above my head.[Distant Voice]: I am not sleeping.
CM (04:23):
Oh, she's not sleeping. OF
that you were part of the ‘Top 50 Restaurants,’so could you explain what that situation is?
So The World's 50 Best Restaurants is an organisation that started I think about
18 years ago in London. It was started on alark by two young guys who wanted to create
(04:47):
an award list for restaurants that wasn'tso stuffy and traditional like Michelin,
but represented the kind of restaurantsand food that young people wanted to eat,
but was still an incredible experience. So theywere seeking a new Academy Chair for China, and
I had been a food journalist in China for about15 years, and my name was suggested to them,
(05:09):
they contacted me. I hadn't really known verymuch about The World's 50 Best Restaurants when
they wrote me their first email. I didn'treally know what it was, I was very very
busy. I think I was still the food editor forTime Out Shanghai, producing a 16-page section
every month and just flat out. And I was like “Ireally don't need another volunteer position”.
(05:29):
So I never replied to them. And then they wroteme three more times. And then finally the woman
who had recommended me called me and was like“Crystyl, can you please just return their email?”
I was just like "Fine, I'll reply”. And then wehad a call. Anyways, it was a funny story because
I was quite clueless about the opportunity thatwas presented to me. And eventually I learned
that it was, you know, one of the most highlysought-after positions you could possibly have in
(05:54):
the world of food. And you are suddenly invitedto restaurants and events all over the world.
OF (06:01):
Right. CM
chefs. I mean, it's been an astonishing ride.OF: Well, you know, you played hard-to-get
Crystyl, it's a lesson that we can all learn.CM: Yes. They actually loved it. They were
definitely far more interested, because they
were like “Wait, you don't want to do this?”OF: Maybe it's similar to how I got you onto
(06:22):
Mosaic of China, but that’s probably elevatingmy status a little bit too high, I think.
Wonderful, so what does that roleentail for you on a practical level?
CM (06:32):
OK, well, right now, because of COVID, we are not doing our regular events. But during
the three years when we were, I would probablyonce or twice a month travel to visit incredible
chefs and restaurants around the world.OF: I'm assuming that you also visit
chefs and restaurants within China too, right?CM: Yes, absolutely. Previous to being the Academy
(06:57):
Chair, I focused almost exclusively on domesticchefs and restaurants. In fact, when I discover a
great chef in China, I would say it is the mostthrilling, because there are not enough chefs
at that level in China. So if I discover onein China, it's mind-blowing. Why isn't there a
Gordon Ramsay of China? Why isn't there aMassimo Bottura? Why isn't there a Rene Redzepi?
(07:22):
With a country of over a billion people, and 5,000years of history, and the most celebrated cuisines
in the world - recognised by chefs - where areour leaders? And the thing is, we don't have a
single mainland Chinese chef who's known globally.Why is that? And there are many reasons, but one
(07:42):
crucial one is that we had a civil war, and wehad the Cultural Revolution. And so people did not
continue this legacy of fine dining or exquisitecuisine during that time. And people still do not
think of being a chef as a respected career. Soif you are a brilliant person who gets into a
(08:08):
top university, you will definitely not becomea chef. And the type of people who become chefs
are - like my husband - people who were failingout of school. So basically, when he was little he
was a very poor student, because he had a horribleabusive teacher. And so his choices were basically
some kind of vocational school or the army. Andhe chose to go to a culinary school, not because
(08:33):
he had any interest in food or cooking, it wasbasically just a way to make a living. And for
most chefs of his generation - and also even now- that is their story. They are not passionate
about food. As soon as they get off work, theygo home and make, you know, 方便面 [fāngbiànmiàn].
OF (08:52):
How interesting. Because that explains, I think, the experience that someone like me
would have maybe going to a fancy restaurantin China. Where you do get really good food,
but then there's often that disconnect, right?Where you can tell that the waiter there
doesn't really care about what he's serving you.CM: Right, even though the food might taste great,
(09:13):
but they're not creating a fine dining experience.The chef is not obsessed with every ingredient,
the chef is not thinking “I can't wait to wowevery diner”. There are definitely becoming
more and more.OF: For sure.
CM (09:25):
But the question of why there aren't already hundreds of well-known chefs, is that the social
status of chefs is still very low. Therefore, itcreates this vacuum of talent in the F&B industry.
Thanks to the booming economy in China over thepast 20 years, many chefs from all over the world
(09:46):
came to Shanghai - Shanghai definitely isthe heart of fine dining in China - to open
their own restaurants. And they trained a lot oflocal chefs, and they also just brought the idea
that being a chef could be a very prestigiouscareer. You can be considered an artist, you
can be considered a thought leader in the greatersociety, not just in your one restaurant. And so
(10:09):
there are starting to be Chinese chefs who wereinfluenced by that, who were inspired by that.
So you have five-star hotels, which were someof the first to open fine dining restaurants.
And so this created an F&B scene which I thinkis extremely sophisticated, and can compare with
many other top-level cities around the world.OF: Right. And what you're describing is not
(10:33):
dissimilar to what happened in the UK. You know,you mentioned Gordon Ramsay, it was only him and
his predecessors over the last 20-30 years thatdid the same thing in the UK. Except in the UK,
you know, we had a cuisine which mostpeople across the world would laugh at.
If we can say that there are thelikes of Gordon Ramsay from the UK,
then it's only logical that there shouldbe the same coming up from China, right?
(10:55):
It is inevitable. OF
are this writer here in China, knowing about thefood scene, knowing about restaurants. But how did
that come about? Were you always in this world?CM: Not always. I had this romantic idea that
I wanted to be a writer. And it's hard toget paid as a writer. So one shortcut is to
(11:18):
become a journalist where - at the time at least- journalists could make a living. Now it's very
difficult, but at that time traditional media wasstill booming. I was graduating from a UC Berkeley
Chinese training programme at 清华 [‘Tsinghua’]in Beijing. And I was in the right place at
the right time, because the sleeping dragonwas awakening, and everyone wanted to know
(11:40):
what was going on in this mysterious country ofChina. I got a job as a China correspondent for
one of the major Time Warner magazines in theregion, it was called Asiaweek. At that time,
it was a very influential publication. And,beginning of 2002, I wanted to go freelance,
(12:01):
so I started pitching stories to travel magazines.And when you write for a travel magazine, you
always end up writing about food, because that'swhat people do when they travel, they want to know
where to go out to eat. And that was how I startedto write about food, serendipitously. I just
started writing a bit about restaurants, and asI started writing about restaurants, I discovered
that I knew a lot about food and cooking. Andthat was from my childhood, growing up with
(12:25):
a creative artist chef mother, an organic garden,and making everything from scratch. From grinding
our own wheat to make bread, to making tofu, tonever having any processed food in the house.
And so the fact that I grew up learning aboutthat way of cooking actually gave me a huge
(12:45):
advantage in writing about the trendy ways ofcooking now. I'm very grateful to my mother for
being this super far-out home cook.OF: Let's go into that story then,
because obviously you do have some Asian ancestry,I can tell of course. What is your family's story?
My mother is originally from Shanghai. She came to the U.S. when she was a teenager. My
(13:08):
father's from New York. And they grew up inthese very opposite families, in some ways.
My mother was very poor, my father was born intoa very wealthy New York family. But both of them
had extremely traumatic childhoods,with parents who were either absent or
(13:29):
completely absorbed in other parts of their lives.OF: Interesting. And so did that also transfer to
your childhood, or was it relatively happy?CM: I would say it was relatively happy.
‘Relative’ being the key term. They were bothcarrying the tragedies of their own childhoods.
A lot of my parents’ pain was in the atmosphereof the home. And I carried that with me very
(13:56):
much. And I was also treated like an adult fromthe time I could walk around. In some ways,
I loved that, I had total independence.But I also had no guidance. For example,
from the time I was five, I was going on thesubway by myself, nobody to make me breakfast,
nobody to dress me, I would take myself toschool. We had a bare-bones house with no heat
(14:21):
in Boston, so I was freezing all winter long, Icouldn't sleep. I had no-one to take care of me,
I took care of myself. My mother cooked a lot, wehad wonderful food, I certainly wasn't starving.
But I had rags for clothes, I never had a decenthaircut. I had a lot of crazy people living in
my house, because my father is this incredibleJesus-like figure who wants to save everyone,
(14:45):
from schizophrenic people to alcoholics anddrug addicts, to just very emotionally damaged
people who we would have in the home all thetime, which drove my mother absolutely crazy.
It was a very chaotic childhood. In retrospect,I realise how unsafe I felt, although I did feel
love from my parents, and they were certainlynever intentionally abusive. They didn't scream
(15:10):
at me, they didn't beat me, they respectedme deeply. But they respected me as an adult,
to just get everything done on my own.OF: Gosh. So I'm guessing that with that
background, you were destined to be somewhatof a loner. Like, I'm just thinking about how
you could possibly fit into a corporation?Do you have a visceral reaction against that
(15:35):
kind of mainstream life? Or actually,do you long for that kind of life?
That is a good question. I don't long for that life. I would say I'm pretty anti-establishment
and anti-mainstream. The biggest reasonthough, that I don't fit into corporate life,
is that I am nocturnal.OF: Oh.
(15:56):
And I operate on a nighttime schedule. My whole life I’ve been nocturnal,
my mother's nocturnal, her mother wasnocturnal. So it is very hard for me to
wake up and go to an office in the morning.OF: Goodness. I've never heard somebody
give themselves that title. I've heardpeople who are like “Oh yeah, I tend to
(16:16):
function better in the evenings. I'm a bitof a night owl.” But you are wholeheartedly
embracing this as a way of life, are you?CM: I am. And as a coach, one of the things I
studied - learning more about bio-individuality- is that we don't need to go by when the sun
comes up and goes down. When you realisewhat your ideal circadian rhythm is,
(16:37):
it gives you a lot more power. For a long time,I was seen as almost shameful to not wake up in
the morning in this society, people would reallylook down on that. And I'd always try to hide that
fact. So people will be like “Oh, I'll call youtomorrow at nine” and I'd be like “Oh, I'm busy”.
Now I'm like “I will be asleep”. Instead of havingsome kind of shame around that. I get as much - if
not more - done each day as anyone else. Ijust do it during different hours of the day.
OF (17:02):
Well, I can definitely see the strands between what you do now and your previous
life. And thank you so much for sharing that partof your story. How did, then, you parlay this into
what you're doing now in terms of coaching? Isit because when you deal with people who work
in the restaurant industry, the archetype is thatthere are very highly-strung chefs. They are these
(17:27):
angry, abusive, short-tempered, impatientpeople. Is that just me creating a silly
analogy? Or is that where it first came from?CM: It's not, but there is a relationship. Chefs
have definitely lots of psychological issues, theyhave a lot of relationship issues, they don't see
their family enough. There are so many divorcedchefs, or chefs who never see their kids. My
(17:48):
epiphany was not sudden, but what I came upon was,I was going to these very very crazy exclusive
experiences at restaurants around the world, whereliterally you will be picked up from the airport
in a limo, and then taken somewhere - maybe byhelicopter - to this $1,000 meal with caviar and
(18:11):
wine pairings, and luxury for the sake of luxury.And that didn't feel like my purpose. And so
that's when I started thinking “I don't know ifI want to continue doing this. I want something
that really resonates with my purpose here, duringthis short time I have on the planet, which is to
help other people heal and to heal myself”. Hurtpeople hurt people, but healed people heal people.
(18:38):
Nice. CM
say that I'm fully healed. But I want to be onthat journey. And so some chefs started to ask me
to come to their restaurant and give mindfulnessworkshops. And so I gave a workshop at the number
one restaurant in the world - which is calledMirazur, in southern France - on mindfulness,
and on dealing with issues of childhood trauma,even. Like, really asking some hard questions
(19:01):
in a half-day workshop with their staff.OF: Right. That is a great combination,
the idea of using your knowledge of the restaurantindustry to then give them some coaching,
which actually can be relevant in that world. Thatis a great niche to springboard your career into
the next stage. It's nice for you to talk aboutthat, because I think otherwise people would
(19:23):
look at your life - you know, as you said, you'regoing from helicopter to amazing meal - and it is
good to know that there is something else goingon. Thank you so much Crystyl, on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF:
Good, well, Part 2, it is the same 10questions that I ask everyone. Are you ready?
CM (19:43):
I am. OF
What is your favourite China-related fact?CM: My favourite China-related fact is,
the longer you stay in China, the more you realise
how little you know about China.OF: Because you have been then trying
to know how many years?CM: 23 or 24.
OF (20:04):
Ach, is that all? CM
And were you the kind of person who at the beginning were the super expert,
and you thought that you knew everything? Or didyou always have that humility from the start?
CM (20:14):
I never thought about how much I know or don't know. But I have definitely met
many people who feel they know a lot.OF: Yeah. Can you remember one particular
‘aha moment’ where you had this transitionfrom ‘Oh wait, what I thought I knew actually
is 100% the opposite way around’?CM: One interesting thing I learned
is that when I first came to China, I thoughtthat the U.S. was perfect. And so coming to
(20:39):
China and hearing another perspective onthe U.S. - seeing global geopolitics from
outside the U.S. - was a very big ‘aha moment’.OF: Yes, this is when American exceptionalism
clashes with China exceptionalism. Question 2, doyou have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
(21:01):
A phrase that I love is 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], which is a very polite way of saying “So sorry to
trouble you”. And Americans don't really say this,we wouldn't off the cuff kind of say “Oh, I'm so
sorry to trouble you”. But in Chinese, that's verycommon. Like when you ask somebody to do a favour,
or when someone just does something nice for you,can say 麻烦你 [máfan nǐ], I'm so sorry to trouble
(21:22):
you. And it's just a very kind and generousrecognition of someone doing something for you.
OF (21:27):
Yes. Although I would take exception to say that the Americans are not polite.
I think Americans can be veryfriendly and polite, of course.
CM (21:34):
Very friendly. OF
politeness as a weapon sometimes.CM: I’m allowed to say that,
but I will agree with you.OF: What is your favourite
destination within China?CM: 云南 [Yúnnán],
and 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’], where it's theSwitzerland of China. Absolutely stunning.
OF (21:54):
Every other person, when answering that question, says 云南 [Yúnnán].
I think I should call this podcast ‘Mosaic of 云南[Yúnnán]’. Yeah, it's something else, isn't it?
CM (22:05):
I would say, if everyone says 云南 [Yúnnán], then that's the right answer. I mean, 云南 [Yúnnán]
is so diverse. I had my honeymoon in西双版纳 [Xīshuāngbǎnnà], which is basically
subtropical, and we were in therain forest in an orchid forest.
And then I've also been to the northern partsaround 香格里拉 [‘Shangri-La’] up into the snow-capped
mountains, you know, all in one province.OF: Yes, and everything in between. Great,
(22:28):
next question. If you left China - whichto you is actually the reality right now,
hopefully temporarily, and not for muchlonger - what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least? So I shouldreword that to ‘what do you miss the most,
and what do you miss the least?’CM: The people and the people.
So, Chinese are not great as strangers. Americansare very friendly and have a warmth to them, that
(22:58):
you can have some kind of friendly interactionwith a stranger, which I think makes just walking
around the city feel like more of a community.And yet, Chinese - while they can be quite cold
and selfish to strangers - they are so warmand generous as soon as you are on any kind of
(23:21):
friendly terms with them. You go to their house,and they will cook you a banquet and take care of
you. And so that kind of warmth and generosityis something that struck me as a student when I
first went to China and lived in Nanjing. And soI would say that I don't miss being a stranger
in China. But I do miss being a friend.OF: Lovely. And there's quite a theme,
(23:46):
isn't there? Because we're talking about thispoliteness. We're talking about it in the
context of America, UK and China. You could alsothrow in Japan as well. I think the Japanese and
the Brits can be similar with a politeness. Butit's still courteous. What they have in China,
it lacks the courtesy. In many ways,it’s more honest. Because, you know,
(24:06):
the Brits don't care about you as a strangereither. But you really feel it here, don't you?
I wouldn't say I'd exchange it for British strangers either. They're both somewhat cold.
OF (24:18):
Yes. CM
Chinese one, because you know where they stand.OF: Exactly, exactly. On the metro in Shanghai,
you are going to be steamrollered by aChinese stranger. In the metro in London,
you’re not going to have anyone making eye contactwith you. It's a very different kind of rudeness.
CM (24:37):
Right. OF
still surprises you about life in China?CM: No. It feels like home.
OF (24:45):
Yeah. I guess the equivalent would be, is there anything that surprises
you about life in the U.S. in that case?CM: More so. Because I have literally spent
the last half of my life in China. Sobeing here, there are more surprises.
I have been the recipient of so much generosityhere during COVID, and warmth from strangers
(25:09):
who heard my story, and would deliver foodand clothing for my daughter, and a bicycle,
and babysitting. I mean, it's been astonishing.OF: And I've noticed as we've been talking that
sometimes you refer to Shanghai as ‘home’and sometimes you're saying ‘home’ as in
the room you're in now. Do you have thisbifurcated ‘home’ existence? Or actually,
(25:31):
it just depends on where you are?CM: I very much feel that both places are
home. I don't feel more or less comfortable.OF: Nice. Next one's gonna be a hard one for
you. What is your favourite place togo out, to drink or eat or hang out?
CM (25:46):
I'll just say one place that I love, which was a cocktail bar I used to go to every Friday
with my girlfriends for years. And that'sSenator Saloon in the French Concession.
OF (25:58):
Nice. CM
including my signature drink, the sidecar.OF: Oh, my one is the basil gimlet there,
they do a great basil gimlet.CM: Oh yes they do. They do.
And it's just consistent every time. I love thebartenders there. I love the guy who founded it,
David Schroeder, a brilliant American bartenderand specialist. And they also have the most
(26:22):
amazing bar snacks out of any bar.OF: Even the freebie chips they give
you seem to be elevated.CM: Small and perfect.
Nice. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? CM
Oh, I like this. That's very good. CM
(26:43):
Because in WeChat groups,
often people will accidentally send something, orsay something inappropriate. And you just need to
have a sticker for that occasion. It literallyhappens every day. So that's just a fun one.
Can you quickly describe it? CM
just a giant button that says ‘unsee’. Sothis person is just frantically tapping this
(27:08):
button. Unsee unsee unsee unsee. Like, pleasejust take me back to five seconds previous
in time and let me not have seen that thing.OF: I've never seen this used. I love it.
CM (27:18):
I hope you’ll start using it. OF
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CM: I would rather stab my eyes
out with forks than go to KTV.OF: You have obviously been, though.
You haven't been able to avoid it entirely.CM: I really have only been maybe three times
in my early career in China before Irealised that I will never go again.
(27:44):
People who don't get paidto sing, should not sing.
OF (27:47):
What about in your daily life? Like if you're having a shower, if you're whistling down the
street, do you have a song that you like to sing?CM: Well, I'm thinking of a song that nobody
will know. But it's a song by a wonderfulfolk singer, which I've been listening to
a bit more recently. Her name is Catie Curtis,and the song is called ‘Magnolia Street’.
(28:09):
OK CM
songwriter. I love acoustic guitar folk singing.OF: Yes. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you rely on?CM: Well, I do love the more long-form
writing about China in The New Yorker. SoI will read their essays, written by some
(28:32):
of the top writers like Peter Hessler.OF: Well, thank you very much, Crystyl.
CM (28:37):
Thank you, Oscar. It's really been a pleasure. I feel like I
could talk to you for two more hours.OF: Thank you so much. The only question I
would have left to ask you is, out of everyone whoyou know in China, who would you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?CM: I would really love to recommend my dear
(28:57):
friend Ricky Li, who is achild prodigy businessman,
started his first businesses literally as a gradeschooler. He's helped to build a natural gas line
in Seattle. And he opened up an incrediblefine dining restaurant in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn],
where he hired a three-star Michelin chef fromCalifornia to be the head chef, Christopher Kostow
(29:22):
from The Restaurant at Meadowood. He'sbrilliant, he’s very humble, he’s a visionary,
incredible businessman, and also a connoisseur.OF: Wow. Well, I thought that you had a busy
life. It sounds like you've recommendedsomebody who is going to be equally hard
to pin down. Thank you so much.CM: He does schedule his day
in 15-minute increments.OF: Oh wow. OK, gosh. Well,
(29:46):
thank you so much. He sounds fascinating, Ican't wait to meet him. And thank you again,
Crystyl, that was a real pleasure.CM: It's been an incredible honour
to chat with you.
[Outro]OF: At the beginning of today’s
episode I mentioned that there were a few updatesto share since the recording of the conversation.
Well sadly Crystyl is still stranded in the U.S.because family reunion visas are still not being
(30:11):
issued for China. She has been running groupsfor people in this same situation on Facebook
and WeChat this whole time, so please reach outto her personally if you’d like to be added.
She would love to connect with you, orindeed with anyone who enjoyed this episode.
And on a slightly happier note, Crystyl’s husbandwho is Chinese was able to come to the States and
(30:32):
return to China with their daughter Phoenix,who is a dual citizen. This has left Crystyl
with all the more time to focus on the biggestproject that she has run this year, which has been
producing and directing her mother's cooking show,Mother Zen Chef. So if you want to check that out,
head to the transcript for today’s episodeat the Mosaic of China website, where you can
(30:54):
scroll to this part of the conversation for thedirect links on YouTube, Facebook and Patreon.
Speaking of Patreon, that’s one of the threeways that you can also check out the PREMIUM
version of the podcast, which includesan extra 10-15 minutes of extra content
every episode. Here are someclips from today’s show.
[Clip 1]CM: Much to their surprise,
(31:15):
almost every chef came, including Ferran Adriàof El Bulli, a God in the culinary world.
[Clip 2]CM: Ancient ways of cooking, using pickling
and using the whole animal or the whole vegetable.[Clip 3]
The most stereotypically rude and arrogant and condescending service, I wrote a
(31:36):
scathing review for Time Out.[Clip 4]
I have a superpower, which is that I metabolise alcohol very efficiently.
[Clip 5]CM: It's the
‘Oscars’ of food, to have a spot on that listcements you in the firmament of great chefs.
[Clip 6]CM: He was in the kitchen,
I went in the kitchen, I met him there. Basicallylove at first sight, and I was like "Wrap him up,
(31:59):
and I'm taking him home”.[End of Audio Clips]
And finally, you can see all the images fromtoday’s episode on all the usual places, including
photos from Crystyl’s childhood; some from thefirst time she stepped foot in China in 1995;
some shots with her husband, mother and daughter;
and of course there are also great photos ofCrystyl alongside some of the world's top chefs,
(32:21):
including Dan Barber, Rene Redzepi, TheRoca Brothers and Heston Blumenthal.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. A great accompaniment to today’s
show is the interview with the China street foodtour guide Jamie Barys from Season 02 Episode 02.
And you heard his voice at the beginning ofthe show, well you’re about to hear it again,
(32:44):
because coming up is a catch-up recordingwith the Instagram food writer Michael Zee
from Season 01 Episode 07. So be sureto listen to Michael’s original episode
if you haven’t done so already, andI’ll see you back here again next week,
where - who knows - there mightalso be a connection to food…
(33:09):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Michael.MZ: Hello. Back again.
OF (33:17):
Here you are. You're not in the studio, you're at my house this time. For people who didn't
necessarily hear our original interview, you arethe man behind @symmetrybreakfast, the Instagram
account. What was your story during COVID?MZ: I was having a haircut at the beginning of
January 2020. And my barber is from 贵州 [Guìzhōu].And he was saying “Oh have you heard about this
(33:41):
virus in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]?” I was like “Yeah, I saw iton the news”. "That is something we should keep
an eye on”. But I was about to go on holiday toAustralia. And whilst we were in Australia, it all
started of kicking off in China, everything wasstarting to go into lock-down, until we were
kind of watching it and looking at the news everyminute of the day. We got to the end of the two
weeks in Australia, and we just made the decisionto delay returning. So we went to Indonesia. And
(34:06):
then Mark had to go to Europe for work, so we cameto Europe. And seven weeks later, we ended up back
in Shanghai after a lot of our friends said “It'sfine. Just come back”. So I actually came back
before they asked me to quarantine. So I cameback and I just went home. And it was only a few
weeks afterwards that the borders were closed.It's very difficult to be in this position as a
(34:29):
social media ‘share-all' position…OF: That was exactly what
I was going to ask you, yeah.MZ: … When actually my 2020 was pretty good.
Yes. MZ
not to go overboard with “Oh my life’s totallynormal, having a great time”. Because I understand
a lot of people are not in that situation. AndI took a step back from social media. I've been
(34:50):
definitely a lot less on Instagram and socialmedia. and just kind of taking it day by day.
Sometimes it's better just to be quiet.OF: Which is interesting, because during
our original conversation, you were sayinghow there is no job description - you've
made this job yourself - and there's no off-rampeither. You don't know how this is going to end,
(35:10):
you can't pass it off to anyone, you are@symmetrybreakfast. So did this give you a
little bit more insight into that end game?MZ: Absolutely. I think I should have this
escape route. Because ultimately, people gettrapped in social media because it's their income.
I came to China four years ago and I remember myagent emailed me a matter of months later saying
(35:34):
“Are you ready to write a book about China?” AndI was “No, of course I'm not ready”. But then four
years later, “Hmm maybe, yeah.”OF: OK.
MZ (35:42):
OK, I feel I do have a lot of knowledge. I do have a lot of opinions and perspective.
I think I'm ready to do another project, anotherbook or something that's more than just Instagram
and breakfasts.OF: Yes.
And we're leaving Shanghai. Now going to Italy, it’s “How do I continue that energy?”
And I have to just go for it.OF: Are you going to have to
finish everything while you're in China?MZ: I'm definitely putting projects into place
(36:06):
now, with the hope that I'm going to beable to come back in September/October
for research and for planning around thoseprojects. I haven't really seen any significant
research on Anglo-Chinese food. You know, thereis just not the same breadth and depth compared
to American-Chinese food. That is something Ireally want to explore. If I'm going to be back
in Europe, and back in the UK, I can use that tointerrogate my dad about those sorts of stories.
(36:31):
And so I'm excited to see how moving away fromChina physically can actually bring out certain
projects that will enable me to come back.OF: Yes. And of course, you're going from
a country with a very important food cultureto another country with a very important food
culture, right? Do you think that when it comesto Italy, there are going to be some connections
that you haven't thought about?MZ: Oh, at the moment I can
(36:56):
only think about the parallels. They're both veryhyper-local cuisines, very specific to certain
communes or provinces or regions. And they'reboth very much grounded in a sense of provenance
and seasonality. But what I don't see inItalian culture - that is so prevalent in
Chinese food - is this connection to health, andfood as medicine. I don't know if actually any
(37:23):
European culture has such a strong connection tohealth. You know, I'm definitely going to go to
Italy and probably still drink a lot of hot water.OF: Yeah, you can't take that out of you now.
No. OF:
Well, what little tidbits have you learned - Iguess this will be my last question for you - in
the two years since we last met here on mic?MZ: Oh, I think the biggest thing is that for
(37:49):
every stereotype, it's also completely untrue. Youknow, I've been to places like 成都 [Chéngdū] and
you meet people who hate spicy food.OF: Oh right.
And I follow other Chinese food writers - and Western food writers who write about
China - and they say things like“Chinese people don't eat salads”.
With every statement aboutChina, the opposite is true also.
OF (38:12):
Right. MZ
is Chinese and some of the worst food and world isChinese. And there's no right or wrong here. China
is the most beautiful and the ugliest country.People here are the nicest and the meanest.
And you can't make a generalisation.OF: Well, this is the stage you should be,
having been here for four years and on the wayout. You have to be leaving under a cloud of
(38:37):
confusion. Because if you were leaving, like “Oh,I know China” then you're not doing it right,
Michael, right? Why would we eventry and encapsulate a country where,
you meet a nice Chinese person, you meet a badChinese person, just like you would anywhere else.
MZ (38:48):
Anywhere else. OF
and we've talked about the other food influencers…One of them of course is the lady who you refer to
me for Season 02, Crystyl Mo.MZ: Oh, yeah.
OF (38:59):
And it will be alongside Crystyl’s episode that we release this catch-up.
MZ (39:03):
Oh, amazing. OF
since she's been locked out the whole time?MZ: Yeah, I mean, we've only spoken a handful of
times. I mean, I feel terrible for her situation.OF: Yes. And she seems to have a very
philosophical idea about how to live life. I mean,
you have to just get on with it. I believe that'swhat everyone who is in that situation is doing.
Sure. OF
(39:24):
you. It has been great to have you as part ofthis Mosaic. And this is the first catch-up,
I hope there are many more in the future.MZ: Brilliant. Thanks so much for having me.
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