February 22, 2021 • 38 mins
In China, craftsmen are not always venerated as artisans. Instead, they are often denigrated as low-status workers. But there is a design team based in the Zhejiang countryside that is doing its best to turn this around, curating the myriad ancient crafts that can be found across China before they disappear, and repurposing them for modern usage. This week's episode is with Jovana Zhang, one of the co-founders of the Rong Design Library and the PINWU Design Studio. Her's is not just a story of design inspiration, it's a story that teaches us that respecting heritage is not the same as clinging onto the past. It's about repurposing what we can learn from the past, and making it relevant to modern times. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Roz COLEMAN from Season 01 Episode 22. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-22-roz-coleman). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:45 - Part 1 21:56 - Part 2 28:59 - Outro 32:00 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-08-jovana-zhang. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]JZ: What the hell is this?
[Intro]OF:
Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast aboutpeople who are making their mark in China.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We're back! Happy Chinese New Year to everyone whocelebrated it. Unfortunately this doesn't quite
(00:22):
include me, I have been trying to deal with theproblem of the Instagram account for the podcast.
The original one got mysteriously deleted,then I set up a new account, and then that
one got deleted. I'm still trying to get tothe bottom of all of that, so for now, please
see the images from today’s episode on Facebook,WeChat, or Patreon, if you're a supporter there.
(00:43):
A big thanks to Marc Gupilan for being the firstPatreon supporter shout-out in the Year of the Ox,
I really appreciate you and the94 other Patreon supporters too.
Apart from the Instagram drama, I spent most ofthe New Year period in the hell that was writing
my Masters thesis. Which for me meant three weeksof total paralysis followed by one week of blind
(01:07):
panic. But it's more or less done now, so I canfinally get back to releasing some more episodes.
Including today's, which is a special one,because it was recorded outside of Shanghai,
in a small village near 杭州 [Hángzhōu],at the home of my guest Jovana Zhang.
You'll notice therefore that the sound quality isa little different to the episodes that I record
(01:28):
in the studio, and I also think it took alittle longer than usual to get warmed up.
But give it a little time, I promise it’sworth it, especially as we build up to an
epic Chinese New Year story in Part 2 ofour conversation. So let's get started.
[Part 1]OF:
So I'm with Jovana Zhang. And your title is..?JZ: I’m a designer. Yeah, in our studio,
(01:54):
we don't use ‘Design Directors’, titlesor anything, my name card is just ‘Jovana
Zhang' and I'm a designer.OF: OK. I want to play you
this. This is a recording ofsomeone who you will know,
[Start of Audio Clip]Noah SHELDON:
Jovana, and her husband Lei - the people atthe Rong Design Library - are fascinating.
(02:18):
They have created this incredible kind of archiveof Chinese design. And it's absolutely phenomenal.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: So that was our mutual friend,
Noah, from Season 01.JZ: Ah yes.
Thanks to Noah.OF: So how do
you know Noah, what’s the relationship?JZ: We met several years ago, he came to take
(02:39):
a photo of our first library. And then his wifeMaggie came here as our resident guest designer.
So we know each other for quite a while.OF: OK. And before we go any further,
what is the object that you have broughtthat in some way describes your life?
JZ (02:57):
It's an umbrella. It's a handmade bamboo umbrella. It's a part of the, actually, heritage
of this area. It's a 余杭 [Yúháng] paper umbrella.OF: Thank you for bringing it in. I should say
thank you, but you haven't gone very far. It'sjust from your studio here in the village, right?
Right, right. It's locally made. Actually, it's from 瓶窑 [Píngyáo]. 瓶窑 [Píngyáo] is another
(03:22):
small village just around the corner here. Tenyears ago, it was the first object that we were
researching as a part of design researchof the craft research in this area.
It's five people, and we kind of hired them fora few months so they could teach us how to make
(03:43):
an umbrella. Particularly this umbrella - whichwe have today - is made by the master’s grandson,
so this is a really really nice story.OF: Right. And is it actually a rain
umbrella or it's a sun umbrella?JZ: It's a rain umbrella. The
book says ‘The 余杭 [Yúháng] oil paperumbrella: not afraid of wind and rain’.
OF (04:02):
What do you mean by 余杭 [Yúháng]? Can you explain that?
JZ (04:05):
余杭 [Yúháng] is an area, it’s an ancient area, and it has something like, I think,
5,000 years of history. It's an area thatis stretches from 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to Shanghai,
so it’s a really large area. And 余杭 [Yúháng]town is very close to us, so we were firstly
(04:26):
trying to research this 余杭 [Yúháng] area.OF: OK, and this leads me to discuss what you
are doing here. So, what does the umbrella meanin terms of the connection with your life today?
It means a lot actually, it's really a revolution in our designing way. It's
(04:47):
also the philosophy for our studio, andfor me. We figured out there are about
70 or more steps to make one umbrella. It’s notvery easy, you have to cut bamboo in a certain
time, it has to be a certain age, then you haveto treat it. So we thought “Oh my god, it’s going
(05:07):
to disappear. These guys were making 25,000 piecesper year, but now only 25. So, waah, it's a pity,
let's do something with this umbrella”. And whilewe were doing that, at the same time we had an
exhibition in Milan that it was going to happenin April - and we were probably somewhere around
(05:30):
December already at the time - and thenwe had an idea: “Let’s make a paper chair,
using the same craft as the umbrella”. Sothis is the beginning of our revolution.
OF (05:42):
So can you explain what you mean by “An umbrella became a chair”? You basically used
the same craft techniques that youmade the umbrella, to make a chair?
JZ (05:51):
Right, but not all the crafts of the umbrella, just certain ones. So we decided to
go for layering. When you have umbrella bones madeof bamboo, you cut the paper, prepare the paper,
you have some kind of glue, and you areput them over the top of the bones. But
(06:15):
we used the mould of the chair - which we hadmade before - and we just started glueing these
papers over and over, and trying to create asurface with the paper. And after it's dried,
the seat was actually solid enough, so it cansupport a person sitting in there. So it's
(06:36):
not something that we created, invented, no. Butthe idea was revolutionary in our minds, because
it's changed the way we think of some objects. Itwould be a waste of time to try and improve this
umbrella to perfection, because it simply doesn'tbelong as a modern person’s accessory. It's heavy,
(07:01):
it's breakable, it's not very reliable, you needan umbrella that is easy to fold, you need an
umbrella that is light. How to save the craftis not by making this thing better quality,
it is by giving it another life. So this is thephilosophy that came with the umbrella to us.
OF (07:21):
Great. And you said that you have now advanced that philosophy. What other things
have you used this philosophy with?JZ: We use a lot of inspiration from
silk, from porcelain, from wood, from actuallywhatever we touch. It has come from somewhere.
And in every on of our projects, we use somekind of craft that we kind of changed. Now
(07:49):
it is already in our practice, that when wethink of design we think of it in craft way.
And I think this is just a matter ofrepetition that we went through so many
times, to ask ourselves “OK, what does thismaterial want to be?” We don't want to force
this material to be something that he doesn't wantto become, but what is naturally his best use.
(08:12):
And that sounds like the same process that, in ancient China,
they would have done as well. They would haveseen the material, and then worked out how to
purpose it in a way that it wants to be, right?JZ: Yes, this is exactly the thing. And just,
we know the materials maybe a little bit morethan before. We know their characteristics, we can
(08:34):
have better quality of them. Andthen it's really interesting for me.
And we're mentioning objects. So let's go into the objects that you have collected. Because what
you've done here with this library that you puttogether, is what I find the most fascinating.
So tell me about the Rong Design Library.JZ: Actually Lei was crazy about libraries.
(08:59):
He was always wanting to have a library.OF: And I should jump in, who is Lei?
JZ (09:04):
Lei is my partner, one of the co-founders, and he's my husband as well. So the library is
something that we curated at the beginning. Itstarted as a very small research, for our own
sake, for our own studio. But there were a fewevents that led this library to become a library.
(09:28):
That Milan exhibition, which we were nominatedfor an award, and then we won that award, for
SaloneSatellite. And after that, there was the 余杭[Yúháng] government that came to us and said “Oh,
wow, great, you won an award. So now let us giveyou some budget, so you can do the next exhibition
and the next research”. And then the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]government did the same thing. We were a little
(09:52):
bit puzzled what to do with all this money.OF: Wow. You didn't even approach them,
they came to you.JZ: They came to us. But I should
say that two, three years before when we wereapproaching them, asking for ten times less money,
they were just [blows raspberry].OF: Yeah
Blow us away. OF
so - just because you've mentioned it - back then,you had just started a design studio, you were
(10:15):
you already set up in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], right?JZ: Yeah, we were already set up, and the
design studio was there, because Lei already
had this studio. But they were not doingfurniture. So when Chris and I came to China,
we kind of re-modified the practice of the studio.OF: You mentioned Chris there, so who is Chris?
Chris is our third partner, he is from Germany. And
(10:41):
we all met in Milan, and we came to China.OF: OK, so we have Lei from China, we have Chris
from Germany. And you Jovana, where are you from?JZ: I'm from Serbia, I'm from Belgrade.
OF (10:52):
OK, so let's go back. JZ
both the sponsorships from the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]government and the 余杭 [Yúháng] government.
And we started the two projects. One is called‘Handmade In Hangzhou', whose Chinese name
is 融 [Róng], hence the Rong Design Library.OF: Ah right.
JZ (11:09):
And another one is called ‘From Yuhang’, because this is in 余杭 [Yúháng]. We had a
conversation with both of the governments who said“OK, we're going to sponsor you for renting this
space, and renovating it, and blah, blah, blah”.And this is how we kind of started the library.
OF (11:28):
So what actually is the library? JZ
craft. But the objects are deconstructed throughthe steps. We categorise them with paper, lacquer,
metal, weaving, textiles, silk, and so on. So nowmaterials, what we have collected, are really a
(11:52):
lot. And they include the whole of China. We'vebeen to every Province. We make research before,
and then we go there, and in one week or twoweeks’ time we cover the whole Province. And then
go back with the samples, with the telephonenumbers of the craftsmen, with information on how
(12:12):
you can get there, how you can… Basically allkinds of information that you can collect from
one material (12:18):
documented, filmed, and so on. OF
then you can go through this library and seeif there are any crafts that you can link to
a certain project. And then you go back to theoriginal people that you met in that Province,
and then you make the connection.JZ: Sure, that’s the logic.
If we can find a good project for each of thesematerials, then they don’t necessarily need
(12:44):
to die, they can just go on. The sameas the umbrella studio that continues.
So we try to get the library very busy withresearch, with a lot of projects going on, and
then we are doing a ping-pong all the time, so thelibrary can be just energetic, and alive still.
OF (13:07):
Right. Because it's not there to be like a museum. It's there to be used, and it's there
to be contributing to craft work in China.JZ: Yes, yes, exactly. So we don't want it to
just stay there and collect dust, these things.So we want them people to touch them, to make them
dirty, to break them, and to feel these materials.OF: Right. And you mentioned that you've collected
(13:30):
these things from around China. Can you thinkof a few examples, ones that you find the most
precious, or has the best memories for you?JZ: Well, the best memory for sure
is 新疆 [Xīnjiāng]. That place was crazy. Therewere shoes made of leather for the desert.
There was a blanket that was supposed tobe a colourful blanket made of camel wool.
(13:59):
There were Ikat fabrics - Ikatfabrics are silk fabrics where firstly
yarn is dyed, and then thepattern is made - that is a
crazy crazy lobotomy to understand. He showedme five times, I didn't get it. And then,
(14:19):
there were tiles, the Muslim kind of tiles forthe houses, they were really nice, they’re 3D.
Right, right. JZ
a lot. But we didn't find everyone, this is thething, some of them in the meantime disappeared,
because we will not fast enough, I guess.OF: Right. So you do your research,
you figure out what you're trying to find, youmake some connections, but then you don't know
(14:42):
until you go there…JZ: Yes.
Right. What about a different part? So, you know, can you paint me a picture about
another part of China through its objects?JZ: Well 西安 [Xī’'ān] was a nice place,
with the shadow puppets. We did use them for theone window display for Hermès. And we had the
craftsman’s daughter come to our studio to help.OF: So that was a collaboration with
(15:07):
Hermès - right, the French company - you said.OF: Yes. Well, it's not collaboration,
it's a window. We’ve designed their windowdisplays for seven years. So four times a year,
seven years, it's a lot of windows,lots of materials. And we try to have,
each time, a new material to offer.OF: And so with that example,
then, what was the end result?JZ: It was beautiful, I think this was one of
(15:31):
the best windows I made at that time, it’s reallynice. It was, I think, two to three years ago.
It's called ‘Body Language’, so theshadow puppets were completely 3D,
and there were human sized - even larger- people who were forming a letter,
and then it would form the whole word in onewindow. And if the shop has five windows,
(15:54):
then it would be a sentence. So it was nice.OF: This is where I'm trying to put you into
some kind of compartment, because youare very hard to compartmentalise.
JZ (16:04):
‘Mental’, I heard ‘mental’. OF
you are yourself in design, but then… is itfurniture? Is it interior? I find it quite hard
to know what to call you, in fact.JZ: Just ‘designer' as I said.
OF (16:23):
Yeah. JZ
designed this oven here from Siberia, anything.OF: And so, what is the ultimate goal,
then, of the library itself?JZ: So the goal of the library is not only to
be close to the craftsmen, but also to see…it's an experiment. We felt naturally that
(16:47):
moving to the village with the library is a betterchoice. We are more focusing on the customer,
and the people who really want to come forus. Not passing by and then, by the way “OK,
let's stop to see a little bit of the tour ofone library”, and then go out, and nothing.
And then another thing is to see how the villagekids react on growing up with the thought that
(17:14):
craft is not something that you should be ashamedof. Being a craftsman in China is often used as,
I don’t know, rude. Or like you want to insultsomebody, or you want to say you're so low level…
Right, it’s like a low status thing. JZ
treasure. So this is something that is reallyimportant to us. And we want to see that. In
(17:37):
the village, you have grandmothers and you havegrandkids. No middle middle people. So we are the
only middle-aged people that are buzzing around.OF: Yeah, you are living the life that I
think people are talking about more and more,where young people who have roles that aren't
necessarily location-specific - you know, yourclients are anywhere from Beijing to Paris - but
(17:58):
you can choose to move it to a location here,you can get the advantages of living a life close
to nature, and you can also give back to thisarea, which has had depopulation, right? I mean,
I see all those things working in concert.JZ: Yeah, it's worked very well. And we hosted
so many interesting people here, coming from allaround the world, so it's really not a bother for
(18:23):
them to to come over here. And actually theylove to come for a few times, several times,
staying more, longer. There was one moment that wealso thought “OK, maybe we are going to bring the
Green School from Bali - The John Hardy School -here”. So John Hardy was our guest, I don't know,
ten times. I drive him with my three-wheeledcar around the village. It’s really wild. He's a
(18:46):
serious guy. And I’m driving him around here withmy three-wheeled car. As well as bringing Eames,
the grandson of the famous Eames family.OF: Really, He came here?
JZ (18:58):
Yeah. In my three-wheeled car as well. And the the one of the founders of Memphis
also was here. Yeah, it’s a wildgroup around here, it’s really fun.
OF (19:09):
Well, I mean, if I think about those people, they must have many meetings in swanky fancy,
uber-designed buildings. Surelyfor them it's special, right?
JZ (19:20):
Yeah. And then they come here and they can't feel more relaxed,
because it's so relaxing here. Yeah,OF: I should say at this point that
I just came here myself. This is my first timein the village. And I'm quite relaxed, because
Jovana kindly gave me some Serbian spirits withmy lunch. I don't usually drink at all at lunch,
(19:42):
but this is really strong. What’s it called?JZ: Dunjevaca.
OF (19:46):
Dunjevaca. But I mean, you're right. I mean, immediately leaving 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and then going
into the hills, already you feel so much morerelaxed. And then now, just being in your very
homely room, you can't help forget the big city.JZ: Yeah, it's forgotten so fast. We thought it's
(20:07):
going to be a difficult transition, and… We wantedto move, like you know you have this urge, “Oh,
yes, yes, yes, move, move, move, move”. Andthen suddenly when there was this point “OK,
let's move”. And I was “Uh-oh, wait, wait,wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm not ready,
I’m not ready, I’m not ready”.OF: Yeah.
JZ (20:22):
But then, when it happened, I found out that this comfort zone is much better
than the comfort zone I had in the city.OF: Right, because how long had you lived
in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] before you moved here?JZ: For a good eight years,
but yeah, it was the best choice ever.OF: Yeah. And so now you have your first
(20:47):
boy. So congratulations.JZ: Thank you.
OF (20:49):
I’ve met him, Mango, he’s very cute. You've now got responsibilities, you've now
got this place set up. What do you seewhen you look into your crystal ball,
about 5-10 years in the future?JZ: Waah, I have no idea actually.
The goal is that you feel happy about each dayof your life, that's the really important thing.
(21:10):
And that the projects that we work on, aremaking us better, right? It's just easygoing.
Yeah. Don't put too much pressure on. JZ
you know, it's already even more thanwhat we imagined what would happen with
this library. The challenge is to keepthe people here. Because it's a village,
(21:35):
the people are young, they want to live in acity and stuff. This is one of the challenges,
but it's not the biggest challenge. It's alright.OF: Yeah. Interesting. Well, you found your home
here, and it's certainly a beautiful home.So thank you very much for having me here.
JZ (21:50):
Thank you, thank you, and welcome. OF
[Part 2]OF: Here we go, Question
1. What is your favourite China-related fact?JZ: The fascinating thing about China for me is
the length of the history. The guys didn'tchange even the the writing since ancient
(22:12):
times. It's the persistence of theChinese way, it’s fascinating for me.
OF (22:16):
And of course, that's one of the things that draws you to what you do today, right?
JZ (22:20):
Mmm, probably. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. OF
phrase in Mandarin?JZ: 差不多 [Chàbuduō].
OF (22:30):
That's your favourite? JZ
Now do you know why I'm reacting like that? JZ
Because Noah, who was the one who referred you, that's his Least favourite.
JZ (22:42):
Ah no! Because he doesn’t understand it yet. OF
Because everything is 差不多 [chàbuduō], everything, everything. I must say that
it was pissing me off in the beginning, becauseit's just… Something you get is not good enough,
which is something you were hoping to get.Everything. But if you have it the other way
(23:06):
around, then it's a blessing.OF: I agree. What is your
favourite destination within China?JZ: I really love the Yellow Mountains,
I really love that area there. That would be someplace, 碧山 [Bìshān], that we visited so many times.
Our friends, they have a beautiful hotel therein the middle of the fields, this was an old
(23:27):
oil factory before, really really nice.OF: Wow. If you left China what would
you miss the most and what wouldyou miss the least? JZ: The least,
I would miss the summer here,and the wetness, and the wet
foggy area. Yeah that I would not miss at all.OF: That's very specific to this part of China,
right?JZ: Yeah,
very, very much. Especially 杭州 [Hángzhōu], wherewe saw the air, how the air circulates. It comes
(23:51):
from Beijing, the one wind; and from Shanghai,another wind; and they all finish in West Lake,
and become a little swirl. And it’s justlike a dumpling in here, steaming ourselves.
OF (24:02):
And then what would you miss the most? JZ
the range of vegetables.OF: Yeah, can you talk about that?
JZ (24:08):
Cabbages, seasonal… 毛豆 [máodòu] is very nice, 秋葵 [qiūkuí] too, and 萝卜
[luóbo]. 萝卜 [Luóbo] is my favourite,I go there to the dig 萝卜 [luóbo]
in the wintertime, it’s so nice, yeah.OF: Because there are some vegetables here, I look
at a supermarket, I've got no idea what it is…JZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s it,
that's it. It's just to have a lot ofvegetables which we don’t have in Europe,
(24:31):
and it's such a pity, it's reallynice. even some parts of the flowers,
and the tree. You know that that treeyou can eat it, 香椿树 [Xiāngchūnshù],
you see it nowhere else. It's just really nice.OF: Great. Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?JZ: I must say, less than less.
Not so much anymore. I already saw quite anumber. I can say one very short story. That
(24:56):
was my biggest cultural shock of China.It was Spring Festival a few years ago,
we were eating in Lei’s parents’ homein 余杭 [Yúháng], in 杭州 [Hángzhōu].
And his family from 天津 [Tiānjīn] was visiting,Lei’s sister, Lei’s mum’s brother with his wife,
and their daughter, so it's like threegenerations. And then suddenly - we are we
(25:20):
are eating, it was, like, Beijing noodles - I justsat to eat, I wanted to put the thing in my mouth,
and then the kid who was, like, aboutthree years old, she suddenly said “I
need a sh*t”. And then three of them - the themother, the grandma and grandpa - ran to the kid,
took off her panties and trousers, and lether sh*t in the middle of the living room.
(25:41):
And I was like “What the hell is this?” Andthe toilet is just that two metres beside.
OF (25:47):
Wow. JZ
You don't see that so much… JZ
not so many things surprise me anymore.OF: Here's an interesting one for somebody who
lives in the village. Where is your favouriteplace to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
Is there actually a place inthe village that you can go to?
JZ (26:08):
There is one, ‘Mad Monkey’. OF
mean that's your favourite? Or would you basicallydrive the hour to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to go somewhere?
Now I would not drive anywhere to go hang out somewhere because
I have a kid, and it's impossible to plan thetrip. But before, yes. Yeah, and if it's really
(26:28):
really an emergency for some sweets, then Iwould send Lei to go to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to buy
it and to bring it back.OF: What is the best or
worst purchase you have made in China?JZ: Oh, worst purchase is all over my Taobao.
That’s a range of garbage. Best purchase in Chinawould definitely be an apartment. That's a crazy
(26:51):
purchase, right? That's a really nice purchase.OF: Great. What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
Have you sent it?JZ: Yes.
OF (26:58):
Ah OK, explain what this one is. JZ
my favourite, but I really love it. This actionof the government guy hitting the table while
the tea is going up. It's really brilliant.OF: Oh I love this one. I always use it,
and I think I must have got it from you.JZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(27:20):
Very good. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
JZ (27:24):
Because I don't do singing - I really don't know how to sing - so it's gonna be ABBA.
OF (27:30):
Which one? JZ
Oh, wow. JZ
always sing it in a duet with somebody.OF: Nice. And finally, what other China related
media or sources of information do you rely on?JZ: No, it's gonna be books.
It's gonna be books about crafts.OF: Is there a particular series that you follow?
JZ (27:52):
There is a very nice series from the research of Huang Yun Song,
amazing, amazing design. He's designing themby himself, it’s a really incredible sense of
research, humour, and all together at once.OF: Well, maybe he is the written version of
(28:14):
what you are doing in real life, with thelibrary. I can see the connection there.
Well, that’s flattery. OF
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China.
I am suggesting that you talk with Haoru. He is an architect. He's based in 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. And
(28:39):
he's doing a lot of things thatalways involve us as well. With bamboo
structure, architecture. I think he has a lot ofthings to say about the architecture of China.
OF (28:53):
Great, I can't wait to meet Haoru. JZ
Thank you again. JZ
[Outro]
Having said my thanks to Jovana, I shouldalso do the same now to her husband, Lei.
I crashed their whole family routine for a day,and they couldn't have been nicer hosts. A quick
apology to them both as well, because I forgotto mention the name of their design studio,
(29:16):
which is PINWU. If you want to visit themat the Rong Design Library, it’s located
in 青山村 [Qīngshāncūn], which is a pretty littlevillage to the North West of 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. You
can find the spelling of that in the transcriptfor this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com.
And while you're there, why not follow thelink to become the hundredth Patreon supporter
(29:37):
who gets to hear the full PREMIUM version of theseinterviews? Here are some clips from today’s.
[Clip 1]JZ: It’s not very easy to
actually kidnap the one craftsman for one month.[Clip 2]
JZ (29:49):
We did that with kites from 潍坊 [Wéifāng]… OF
No, it's paper. [Clip 3]
We brought a craftsman from China to Paris to do a carving on a concept car which we designed
for Peugeot.OF: OK.
[Clip 4]JZ: I don't know why. It's such a brilliant idea,
(30:09):
I don’t know why.[Clip 5]
OF (30:11):
Life didn't work out like that this year, did it?
JZ (30:13):
Yeah. And I was pissed at that. [End of Audio Clips]
Just a quick note on the Chinese phrase差不多 [Chàbuduō] which Jovana mentioned.
It's amazing how this one phrase expresses thedifference between her and Noah from Episode
09 of Season 01 so clearly. It describes theenergy that Jovana uses to get things done,
(30:34):
versus Noah's perfectionism whichcan be crippling if left unchecked.
I see myself as somewhere in the middle,so I found myself thinking about this
phrase 差不多 [Chàbuduō] very often while writingmy thesis. Please also listen to Season 01
Episode 28 with Lissanthea Taylor, to hear heramazing Australian translation of the phrase.
(30:56):
There are some really good images to check outthis week, there's Jovana's object the umbrella,
and then the chairs she helped to design thatused some of the same paper layering techniques;
there’s of course her favourite WeChatsticker, then there are photos of the library;
of the founders; of their trip to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng];of the Hermès window display’ some of them
(31:19):
and the other local buzzing around the village;and also some from my own time I the village too.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I would have loved to include
a catch-up chat with Noah Sheldon now, since hewas the one who nominated Jovana from Season 01.
But he never gets back to me, and in theend I simply gave up trying. So instead,
(31:42):
there is a catch-up with the lovely Roz Colemanfrom Season 01 Episode 22 right after this.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Roz.
Roz Coleman (32:03):
Hello, Oscar. OF:
You're a sight for sore eyes. Because actually,when we did our recording you were basically
in your last few weeks in China. And thenoff you went, and I haven't seen you since.
RC (32:17):
So true. After I left you, I just went travelling for four months, to be able to see
where I've been living for three years. Likearound China, Philippines, and then Vietnam,
and then Cambodia, I went and took a 10 day silentmeditation retreat in Myanmar, went from there to
(32:38):
Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, blah, blah, blah. Andthen I was back in London, what, three months,
before we could sort of see Corona coming overthe horizon. And, yeah, I think we started to
work remotely probably sooner than everyone else,because all my Chinese friends kept being like
“Are you OK? Keep safe, keep distance, wear a maskand everything. Don't listen to your government,
(33:00):
and herd immunity, everything”. And I'm stillworking for Punchdrunk. But, you know, we were
basically locked down by February. And then theweirdest thing happened, which is that my sister
was supposed to be going to work for MSF. But shecame via London and got trapped with us as well.
OF (33:14):
Oh, wow. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I wanted to interrupt you quickly, because
people who are listening to this episode might nothave heard your episode, so don't really know what
the hell it is that you were doing in China. So Ishould say that you were the International Company
Manager of Sleep No More here in Shanghai, right?RC: That's right. For, I guess,
(33:35):
two and a half, three years.OF: Right. The interesting thing
about Sleep No More is that it was immersivetheatre, where people are very close together.
And we discussed that in our episode. Sowhat has happened to immersive theatre
during the Coronavirus era?RC: It's an amazing thing to be able
to say that it's still rolling.OF: Wow.
RC (33:56):
The shows… There have, of course, had to be amendments, not least because anybody who left
that Chinese New Year - to go on holiday or to seefamily - a lot of them weren't able to come back
into town. And two of the remaining rehearsaldirectors were able to train up a much more local
(34:17):
company, in a very short period of time. They wereneeding to sterilise everything in the building,
and really up the cleaning of everything.And they pulled out every trick in the book,
really. And I often think that because theatreis so used to telling people what to do, or
gently guiding people in the right direction,that it's actually one of the best placed
industries to, you know, roll out some of thoseinfection prevention procedures. But it’s that,
(34:44):
will people feel comfortable being back in thespace? And we were just amazed to discover that,
yeah, the audience were really happy to come back.OF: Yes. Well let's pivot, because I want to
talk about all the things that you taught me.The concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’, for example,
there aren't many days where I don't thinkabout that. Now that you are outside of China,
living your life in London - or at least,now, a version of your life - do you also
(35:08):
reflect on ‘Shanghai Flow’? And are thereany equivalents that you've seen in London?
That's such a lovely question. I remember when I was still in Shanghai, one of the company
members saying to me “I went on The Tube whenI went back home”, he was visiting his mother,
“And it was so hectic, and it was soaggressive, and I really miss China”.
And at that time, I thought “What's he talkingabout?” But when I got back to Liverpool Street,
(35:31):
you know, a year or so later, I reflected, he wastotally right. It's not the ‘Shanghai Flow’ style,
by any stretch of the imagination. Butpeople are just mardy on public transit.
OF (35:41):
‘Mardy’, Can you explain to people not from the UK what ‘mardy’ means?
RC (35:47):
Oh, yeah, sure thing, sorry. Such a colloquialism. ‘Mardy’ is like a more humorous,
less harsh version of ‘grumpy’, maybe.OF: Well explained, very nice.
But what's been super interesting has been the way in which people are giving way
a lot more. It feels a lot less fraught onthe roads, people have more patience. And
(36:13):
that's definitely true for the street. Like,we're really missing entrances and exits,
I think, for greeting friends. And so I have somefriends who give each other like a deep, long bow
of respect when they arrive to a meeting. Orother friends who sort of do a little dance
with cuddling themselves, like, to signify“I wish I could cuddle you, but I can’t,
(36:35):
so I’ll cuddle myself”. And those sort of actsof grace and understanding and patience are…
that kind of reminds me of Shanghai, in a way.OF: Wow, this is where I'm slightly out of my
depth, because we're not really comparingyour life in China to your life in London.
(36:57):
It's really comparing life in London before,and life in London now, and whatever life in
London will be later. It's almost beyond thescope of this podcast right now, isn’t it?
So true. And I feel like we really can't predict how it's gonna
go for, like, a few generations.OF: Mmm. Well, you did give me a great
(37:19):
referral for Season 2. Sadly, that referral didn'twork out. But I did find a nice replacement. So
you will still be part of the future seasons,and there'll still be some kind of connection.
But I wanted to say, you know, thank youagain for our original interview. I learned
a lot about general life in Shanghai from you,that I otherwise would would not have learned.
(37:40):
Including, I must say, the best descriptionof experiencing karaoke in Asia out of anyone
in the series. So thank you againfor being part of this project, Roz.
Ah thank you so much. It's been an absolute joy, and it's really kept me company, you know,
through all this lockdown, beingable to hear how everyone's going and
(38:02):
staying up to date with the podcast and howit's been moving through the year. And I think,
especially as we moved into these extraordinarytimes, just such a useful ‘comrade in arms’ of
like, “How is the other side of the world doing?”It's felt like a very magic portal into a place I
(38:23):
really miss. So that's super nice, thank you.OF: Thank you Roz, and we will have you
back as soon as you can come back.RC: Thanks, I look forward to it.
[Trailer]JZ: What the hell is this?
[Intro]OF:
Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast aboutpeople who are making their mark in China.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We're back! Happy Chinese New Year to everyone whocelebrated it. Unfortunately this doesn't quite
(00:22):
include me, I have been trying to deal with theproblem of the Instagram account for the podcast.
The original one got mysteriously deleted,then I set up a new account, and then that
one got deleted. I'm still trying to get tothe bottom of all of that, so for now, please
see the images from today’s episode on Facebook,WeChat, or Patreon, if you're a supporter there.
(00:43):
A big thanks to Marc Gupilan for being the firstPatreon supporter shout-out in the Year of the Ox,
I really appreciate you and the94 other Patreon supporters too.
Apart from the Instagram drama, I spent most ofthe New Year period in the hell that was writing
my Masters thesis. Which for me meant three weeksof total paralysis followed by one week of blind
(01:07):
panic. But it's more or less done now, so I canfinally get back to releasing some more episodes.
Including today's, which is a special one,because it was recorded outside of Shanghai,
in a small village near 杭州 [Hángzhōu],at the home of my guest Jovana Zhang.
You'll notice therefore that the sound quality isa little different to the episodes that I record
(01:28):
in the studio, and I also think it took alittle longer than usual to get warmed up.
But give it a little time, I promise it’sworth it, especially as we build up to an
epic Chinese New Year story in Part 2 ofour conversation. So let's get started.
[Part 1]OF:
So I'm with Jovana Zhang. And your title is..?JZ: I’m a designer. Yeah, in our studio,
(01:54):
we don't use ‘Design Directors’, titlesor anything, my name card is just ‘Jovana
Zhang' and I'm a designer.OF: OK. I want to play you
this. This is a recording ofsomeone who you will know,
[Start of Audio Clip]Noah SHELDON:
Jovana, and her husband Lei - the people atthe Rong Design Library - are fascinating.
(02:18):
They have created this incredible kind of archiveof Chinese design. And it's absolutely phenomenal.
[End of Audio Clip]OF: So that was our mutual friend,
Noah, from Season 01.JZ: Ah yes.
Thanks to Noah.OF: So how do
you know Noah, what’s the relationship?JZ: We met several years ago, he came to take
(02:39):
a photo of our first library. And then his wifeMaggie came here as our resident guest designer.
So we know each other for quite a while.OF: OK. And before we go any further,
what is the object that you have broughtthat in some way describes your life?
JZ (02:57):
It's an umbrella. It's a handmade bamboo umbrella. It's a part of the, actually, heritage
of this area. It's a 余杭 [Yúháng] paper umbrella.OF: Thank you for bringing it in. I should say
thank you, but you haven't gone very far. It'sjust from your studio here in the village, right?
Right, right. It's locally made. Actually, it's from 瓶窑 [Píngyáo]. 瓶窑 [Píngyáo] is another
(03:22):
small village just around the corner here. Tenyears ago, it was the first object that we were
researching as a part of design researchof the craft research in this area.
It's five people, and we kind of hired them fora few months so they could teach us how to make
(03:43):
an umbrella. Particularly this umbrella - whichwe have today - is made by the master’s grandson,
so this is a really really nice story.OF: Right. And is it actually a rain
umbrella or it's a sun umbrella?JZ: It's a rain umbrella. The
book says ‘The 余杭 [Yúháng] oil paperumbrella: not afraid of wind and rain’.
OF (04:02):
What do you mean by 余杭 [Yúháng]? Can you explain that?
JZ (04:05):
余杭 [Yúháng] is an area, it’s an ancient area, and it has something like, I think,
5,000 years of history. It's an area thatis stretches from 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to Shanghai,
so it’s a really large area. And 余杭 [Yúháng]town is very close to us, so we were firstly
(04:26):
trying to research this 余杭 [Yúháng] area.OF: OK, and this leads me to discuss what you
are doing here. So, what does the umbrella meanin terms of the connection with your life today?
It means a lot actually, it's really a revolution in our designing way. It's
(04:47):
also the philosophy for our studio, andfor me. We figured out there are about
70 or more steps to make one umbrella. It’s notvery easy, you have to cut bamboo in a certain
time, it has to be a certain age, then you haveto treat it. So we thought “Oh my god, it’s going
(05:07):
to disappear. These guys were making 25,000 piecesper year, but now only 25. So, waah, it's a pity,
let's do something with this umbrella”. And whilewe were doing that, at the same time we had an
exhibition in Milan that it was going to happenin April - and we were probably somewhere around
(05:30):
December already at the time - and thenwe had an idea: “Let’s make a paper chair,
using the same craft as the umbrella”. Sothis is the beginning of our revolution.
OF (05:42):
So can you explain what you mean by “An umbrella became a chair”? You basically used
the same craft techniques that youmade the umbrella, to make a chair?
JZ (05:51):
Right, but not all the crafts of the umbrella, just certain ones. So we decided to
go for layering. When you have umbrella bones madeof bamboo, you cut the paper, prepare the paper,
you have some kind of glue, and you areput them over the top of the bones. But
(06:15):
we used the mould of the chair - which we hadmade before - and we just started glueing these
papers over and over, and trying to create asurface with the paper. And after it's dried,
the seat was actually solid enough, so it cansupport a person sitting in there. So it's
(06:36):
not something that we created, invented, no. Butthe idea was revolutionary in our minds, because
it's changed the way we think of some objects. Itwould be a waste of time to try and improve this
umbrella to perfection, because it simply doesn'tbelong as a modern person’s accessory. It's heavy,
(07:01):
it's breakable, it's not very reliable, you needan umbrella that is easy to fold, you need an
umbrella that is light. How to save the craftis not by making this thing better quality,
it is by giving it another life. So this is thephilosophy that came with the umbrella to us.
OF (07:21):
Great. And you said that you have now advanced that philosophy. What other things
have you used this philosophy with?JZ: We use a lot of inspiration from
silk, from porcelain, from wood, from actuallywhatever we touch. It has come from somewhere.
And in every on of our projects, we use somekind of craft that we kind of changed. Now
(07:49):
it is already in our practice, that when wethink of design we think of it in craft way.
And I think this is just a matter ofrepetition that we went through so many
times, to ask ourselves “OK, what does thismaterial want to be?” We don't want to force
this material to be something that he doesn't wantto become, but what is naturally his best use.
(08:12):
And that sounds like the same process that, in ancient China,
they would have done as well. They would haveseen the material, and then worked out how to
purpose it in a way that it wants to be, right?JZ: Yes, this is exactly the thing. And just,
we know the materials maybe a little bit morethan before. We know their characteristics, we can
(08:34):
have better quality of them. Andthen it's really interesting for me.
And we're mentioning objects. So let's go into the objects that you have collected. Because what
you've done here with this library that you puttogether, is what I find the most fascinating.
So tell me about the Rong Design Library.JZ: Actually Lei was crazy about libraries.
(08:59):
He was always wanting to have a library.OF: And I should jump in, who is Lei?
JZ (09:04):
Lei is my partner, one of the co-founders, and he's my husband as well. So the library is
something that we curated at the beginning. Itstarted as a very small research, for our own
sake, for our own studio. But there were a fewevents that led this library to become a library.
(09:28):
That Milan exhibition, which we were nominatedfor an award, and then we won that award, for
SaloneSatellite. And after that, there was the 余杭[Yúháng] government that came to us and said “Oh,
wow, great, you won an award. So now let us giveyou some budget, so you can do the next exhibition
and the next research”. And then the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]government did the same thing. We were a little
(09:52):
bit puzzled what to do with all this money.OF: Wow. You didn't even approach them,
they came to you.JZ: They came to us. But I should
say that two, three years before when we wereapproaching them, asking for ten times less money,
they were just [blows raspberry].OF: Yeah
Blow us away. OF
so - just because you've mentioned it - back then,you had just started a design studio, you were
(10:15):
you already set up in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], right?JZ: Yeah, we were already set up, and the
design studio was there, because Lei already
had this studio. But they were not doingfurniture. So when Chris and I came to China,
we kind of re-modified the practice of the studio.OF: You mentioned Chris there, so who is Chris?
Chris is our third partner, he is from Germany. And
(10:41):
we all met in Milan, and we came to China.OF: OK, so we have Lei from China, we have Chris
from Germany. And you Jovana, where are you from?JZ: I'm from Serbia, I'm from Belgrade.
OF (10:52):
OK, so let's go back. JZ
both the sponsorships from the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]government and the 余杭 [Yúháng] government.
And we started the two projects. One is called‘Handmade In Hangzhou', whose Chinese name
is 融 [Róng], hence the Rong Design Library.OF: Ah right.
JZ (11:09):
And another one is called ‘From Yuhang’, because this is in 余杭 [Yúháng]. We had a
conversation with both of the governments who said“OK, we're going to sponsor you for renting this
space, and renovating it, and blah, blah, blah”.And this is how we kind of started the library.
OF (11:28):
So what actually is the library? JZ
craft. But the objects are deconstructed throughthe steps. We categorise them with paper, lacquer,
metal, weaving, textiles, silk, and so on. So nowmaterials, what we have collected, are really a
(11:52):
lot. And they include the whole of China. We'vebeen to every Province. We make research before,
and then we go there, and in one week or twoweeks’ time we cover the whole Province. And then
go back with the samples, with the telephonenumbers of the craftsmen, with information on how
(12:12):
you can get there, how you can… Basically allkinds of information that you can collect from
one material (12:18):
documented, filmed, and so on. OF
then you can go through this library and seeif there are any crafts that you can link to
a certain project. And then you go back to theoriginal people that you met in that Province,
and then you make the connection.JZ: Sure, that’s the logic.
If we can find a good project for each of thesematerials, then they don’t necessarily need
(12:44):
to die, they can just go on. The sameas the umbrella studio that continues.
So we try to get the library very busy withresearch, with a lot of projects going on, and
then we are doing a ping-pong all the time, so thelibrary can be just energetic, and alive still.
OF (13:07):
Right. Because it's not there to be like a museum. It's there to be used, and it's there
to be contributing to craft work in China.JZ: Yes, yes, exactly. So we don't want it to
just stay there and collect dust, these things.So we want them people to touch them, to make them
dirty, to break them, and to feel these materials.OF: Right. And you mentioned that you've collected
(13:30):
these things from around China. Can you thinkof a few examples, ones that you find the most
precious, or has the best memories for you?JZ: Well, the best memory for sure
is 新疆 [Xīnjiāng]. That place was crazy. Therewere shoes made of leather for the desert.
There was a blanket that was supposed tobe a colourful blanket made of camel wool.
(13:59):
There were Ikat fabrics - Ikatfabrics are silk fabrics where firstly
yarn is dyed, and then thepattern is made - that is a
crazy crazy lobotomy to understand. He showedme five times, I didn't get it. And then,
(14:19):
there were tiles, the Muslim kind of tiles forthe houses, they were really nice, they’re 3D.
Right, right. JZ
a lot. But we didn't find everyone, this is thething, some of them in the meantime disappeared,
because we will not fast enough, I guess.OF: Right. So you do your research,
you figure out what you're trying to find, youmake some connections, but then you don't know
(14:42):
until you go there…JZ: Yes.
Right. What about a different part? So, you know, can you paint me a picture about
another part of China through its objects?JZ: Well 西安 [Xī’'ān] was a nice place,
with the shadow puppets. We did use them for theone window display for Hermès. And we had the
craftsman’s daughter come to our studio to help.OF: So that was a collaboration with
(15:07):
Hermès - right, the French company - you said.OF: Yes. Well, it's not collaboration,
it's a window. We’ve designed their windowdisplays for seven years. So four times a year,
seven years, it's a lot of windows,lots of materials. And we try to have,
each time, a new material to offer.OF: And so with that example,
then, what was the end result?JZ: It was beautiful, I think this was one of
(15:31):
the best windows I made at that time, it’s reallynice. It was, I think, two to three years ago.
It's called ‘Body Language’, so theshadow puppets were completely 3D,
and there were human sized - even larger- people who were forming a letter,
and then it would form the whole word in onewindow. And if the shop has five windows,
(15:54):
then it would be a sentence. So it was nice.OF: This is where I'm trying to put you into
some kind of compartment, because youare very hard to compartmentalise.
JZ (16:04):
‘Mental’, I heard ‘mental’. OF
you are yourself in design, but then… is itfurniture? Is it interior? I find it quite hard
to know what to call you, in fact.JZ: Just ‘designer' as I said.
OF (16:23):
Yeah. JZ
designed this oven here from Siberia, anything.OF: And so, what is the ultimate goal,
then, of the library itself?JZ: So the goal of the library is not only to
be close to the craftsmen, but also to see…it's an experiment. We felt naturally that
(16:47):
moving to the village with the library is a betterchoice. We are more focusing on the customer,
and the people who really want to come forus. Not passing by and then, by the way “OK,
let's stop to see a little bit of the tour ofone library”, and then go out, and nothing.
And then another thing is to see how the villagekids react on growing up with the thought that
(17:14):
craft is not something that you should be ashamedof. Being a craftsman in China is often used as,
I don’t know, rude. Or like you want to insultsomebody, or you want to say you're so low level…
Right, it’s like a low status thing. JZ
treasure. So this is something that is reallyimportant to us. And we want to see that. In
(17:37):
the village, you have grandmothers and you havegrandkids. No middle middle people. So we are the
only middle-aged people that are buzzing around.OF: Yeah, you are living the life that I
think people are talking about more and more,where young people who have roles that aren't
necessarily location-specific - you know, yourclients are anywhere from Beijing to Paris - but
(17:58):
you can choose to move it to a location here,you can get the advantages of living a life close
to nature, and you can also give back to thisarea, which has had depopulation, right? I mean,
I see all those things working in concert.JZ: Yeah, it's worked very well. And we hosted
so many interesting people here, coming from allaround the world, so it's really not a bother for
(18:23):
them to to come over here. And actually theylove to come for a few times, several times,
staying more, longer. There was one moment that wealso thought “OK, maybe we are going to bring the
Green School from Bali - The John Hardy School -here”. So John Hardy was our guest, I don't know,
ten times. I drive him with my three-wheeledcar around the village. It’s really wild. He's a
(18:46):
serious guy. And I’m driving him around here withmy three-wheeled car. As well as bringing Eames,
the grandson of the famous Eames family.OF: Really, He came here?
JZ (18:58):
Yeah. In my three-wheeled car as well. And the the one of the founders of Memphis
also was here. Yeah, it’s a wildgroup around here, it’s really fun.
OF (19:09):
Well, I mean, if I think about those people, they must have many meetings in swanky fancy,
uber-designed buildings. Surelyfor them it's special, right?
JZ (19:20):
Yeah. And then they come here and they can't feel more relaxed,
because it's so relaxing here. Yeah,OF: I should say at this point that
I just came here myself. This is my first timein the village. And I'm quite relaxed, because
Jovana kindly gave me some Serbian spirits withmy lunch. I don't usually drink at all at lunch,
(19:42):
but this is really strong. What’s it called?JZ: Dunjevaca.
OF (19:46):
Dunjevaca. But I mean, you're right. I mean, immediately leaving 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and then going
into the hills, already you feel so much morerelaxed. And then now, just being in your very
homely room, you can't help forget the big city.JZ: Yeah, it's forgotten so fast. We thought it's
(20:07):
going to be a difficult transition, and… We wantedto move, like you know you have this urge, “Oh,
yes, yes, yes, move, move, move, move”. Andthen suddenly when there was this point “OK,
let's move”. And I was “Uh-oh, wait, wait,wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm not ready,
I’m not ready, I’m not ready”.OF: Yeah.
JZ (20:22):
But then, when it happened, I found out that this comfort zone is much better
than the comfort zone I had in the city.OF: Right, because how long had you lived
in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] before you moved here?JZ: For a good eight years,
but yeah, it was the best choice ever.OF: Yeah. And so now you have your first
(20:47):
boy. So congratulations.JZ: Thank you.
OF (20:49):
I’ve met him, Mango, he’s very cute. You've now got responsibilities, you've now
got this place set up. What do you seewhen you look into your crystal ball,
about 5-10 years in the future?JZ: Waah, I have no idea actually.
The goal is that you feel happy about each dayof your life, that's the really important thing.
(21:10):
And that the projects that we work on, aremaking us better, right? It's just easygoing.
Yeah. Don't put too much pressure on. JZ
you know, it's already even more thanwhat we imagined what would happen with
this library. The challenge is to keepthe people here. Because it's a village,
(21:35):
the people are young, they want to live in acity and stuff. This is one of the challenges,
but it's not the biggest challenge. It's alright.OF: Yeah. Interesting. Well, you found your home
here, and it's certainly a beautiful home.So thank you very much for having me here.
JZ (21:50):
Thank you, thank you, and welcome. OF
[Part 2]OF: Here we go, Question
1. What is your favourite China-related fact?JZ: The fascinating thing about China for me is
the length of the history. The guys didn'tchange even the the writing since ancient
(22:12):
times. It's the persistence of theChinese way, it’s fascinating for me.
OF (22:16):
And of course, that's one of the things that draws you to what you do today, right?
JZ (22:20):
Mmm, probably. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. OF
phrase in Mandarin?JZ: 差不多 [Chàbuduō].
OF (22:30):
That's your favourite? JZ
Now do you know why I'm reacting like that? JZ
Because Noah, who was the one who referred you, that's his Least favourite.
JZ (22:42):
Ah no! Because he doesn’t understand it yet. OF
Because everything is 差不多 [chàbuduō], everything, everything. I must say that
it was pissing me off in the beginning, becauseit's just… Something you get is not good enough,
which is something you were hoping to get.Everything. But if you have it the other way
(23:06):
around, then it's a blessing.OF: I agree. What is your
favourite destination within China?JZ: I really love the Yellow Mountains,
I really love that area there. That would be someplace, 碧山 [Bìshān], that we visited so many times.
Our friends, they have a beautiful hotel therein the middle of the fields, this was an old
(23:27):
oil factory before, really really nice.OF: Wow. If you left China what would
you miss the most and what wouldyou miss the least? JZ: The least,
I would miss the summer here,and the wetness, and the wet
foggy area. Yeah that I would not miss at all.OF: That's very specific to this part of China,
right?JZ: Yeah,
very, very much. Especially 杭州 [Hángzhōu], wherewe saw the air, how the air circulates. It comes
(23:51):
from Beijing, the one wind; and from Shanghai,another wind; and they all finish in West Lake,
and become a little swirl. And it’s justlike a dumpling in here, steaming ourselves.
OF (24:02):
And then what would you miss the most? JZ
the range of vegetables.OF: Yeah, can you talk about that?
JZ (24:08):
Cabbages, seasonal… 毛豆 [máodòu] is very nice, 秋葵 [qiūkuí] too, and 萝卜
[luóbo]. 萝卜 [Luóbo] is my favourite,I go there to the dig 萝卜 [luóbo]
in the wintertime, it’s so nice, yeah.OF: Because there are some vegetables here, I look
at a supermarket, I've got no idea what it is…JZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s it,
that's it. It's just to have a lot ofvegetables which we don’t have in Europe,
(24:31):
and it's such a pity, it's reallynice. even some parts of the flowers,
and the tree. You know that that treeyou can eat it, 香椿树 [Xiāngchūnshù],
you see it nowhere else. It's just really nice.OF: Great. Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?JZ: I must say, less than less.
Not so much anymore. I already saw quite anumber. I can say one very short story. That
(24:56):
was my biggest cultural shock of China.It was Spring Festival a few years ago,
we were eating in Lei’s parents’ homein 余杭 [Yúháng], in 杭州 [Hángzhōu].
And his family from 天津 [Tiānjīn] was visiting,Lei’s sister, Lei’s mum’s brother with his wife,
and their daughter, so it's like threegenerations. And then suddenly - we are we
(25:20):
are eating, it was, like, Beijing noodles - I justsat to eat, I wanted to put the thing in my mouth,
and then the kid who was, like, aboutthree years old, she suddenly said “I
need a sh*t”. And then three of them - the themother, the grandma and grandpa - ran to the kid,
took off her panties and trousers, and lether sh*t in the middle of the living room.
(25:41):
And I was like “What the hell is this?” Andthe toilet is just that two metres beside.
OF (25:47):
Wow. JZ
You don't see that so much… JZ
not so many things surprise me anymore.OF: Here's an interesting one for somebody who
lives in the village. Where is your favouriteplace to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
Is there actually a place inthe village that you can go to?
JZ (26:08):
There is one, ‘Mad Monkey’. OF
mean that's your favourite? Or would you basicallydrive the hour to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to go somewhere?
Now I would not drive anywhere to go hang out somewhere because
I have a kid, and it's impossible to plan thetrip. But before, yes. Yeah, and if it's really
(26:28):
really an emergency for some sweets, then Iwould send Lei to go to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to buy
it and to bring it back.OF: What is the best or
worst purchase you have made in China?JZ: Oh, worst purchase is all over my Taobao.
That’s a range of garbage. Best purchase in Chinawould definitely be an apartment. That's a crazy
(26:51):
purchase, right? That's a really nice purchase.OF: Great. What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
Have you sent it?JZ: Yes.
OF (26:58):
Ah OK, explain what this one is. JZ
my favourite, but I really love it. This actionof the government guy hitting the table while
the tea is going up. It's really brilliant.OF: Oh I love this one. I always use it,
and I think I must have got it from you.JZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(27:20):
Very good. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
JZ (27:24):
Because I don't do singing - I really don't know how to sing - so it's gonna be ABBA.
OF (27:30):
Which one? JZ
Oh, wow. JZ
always sing it in a duet with somebody.OF: Nice. And finally, what other China related
media or sources of information do you rely on?JZ: No, it's gonna be books.
It's gonna be books about crafts.OF: Is there a particular series that you follow?
JZ (27:52):
There is a very nice series from the research of Huang Yun Song,
amazing, amazing design. He's designing themby himself, it’s a really incredible sense of
research, humour, and all together at once.OF: Well, maybe he is the written version of
(28:14):
what you are doing in real life, with thelibrary. I can see the connection there.
Well, that’s flattery. OF
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China.
I am suggesting that you talk with Haoru. He is an architect. He's based in 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. And
(28:39):
he's doing a lot of things thatalways involve us as well. With bamboo
structure, architecture. I think he has a lot ofthings to say about the architecture of China.
OF (28:53):
Great, I can't wait to meet Haoru. JZ
Thank you again. JZ
[Outro]
Having said my thanks to Jovana, I shouldalso do the same now to her husband, Lei.
I crashed their whole family routine for a day,and they couldn't have been nicer hosts. A quick
apology to them both as well, because I forgotto mention the name of their design studio,
(29:16):
which is PINWU. If you want to visit themat the Rong Design Library, it’s located
in 青山村 [Qīngshāncūn], which is a pretty littlevillage to the North West of 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. You
can find the spelling of that in the transcriptfor this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com.
And while you're there, why not follow thelink to become the hundredth Patreon supporter
(29:37):
who gets to hear the full PREMIUM version of theseinterviews? Here are some clips from today’s.
[Clip 1]JZ: It’s not very easy to
actually kidnap the one craftsman for one month.[Clip 2]
JZ (29:49):
We did that with kites from 潍坊 [Wéifāng]… OF
No, it's paper. [Clip 3]
We brought a craftsman from China to Paris to do a carving on a concept car which we designed
for Peugeot.OF: OK.
[Clip 4]JZ: I don't know why. It's such a brilliant idea,
(30:09):
I don’t know why.[Clip 5]
OF (30:11):
Life didn't work out like that this year, did it?
JZ (30:13):
Yeah. And I was pissed at that. [End of Audio Clips]
Just a quick note on the Chinese phrase差不多 [Chàbuduō] which Jovana mentioned.
It's amazing how this one phrase expresses thedifference between her and Noah from Episode
09 of Season 01 so clearly. It describes theenergy that Jovana uses to get things done,
(30:34):
versus Noah's perfectionism whichcan be crippling if left unchecked.
I see myself as somewhere in the middle,so I found myself thinking about this
phrase 差不多 [Chàbuduō] very often while writingmy thesis. Please also listen to Season 01
Episode 28 with Lissanthea Taylor, to hear heramazing Australian translation of the phrase.
(30:56):
There are some really good images to check outthis week, there's Jovana's object the umbrella,
and then the chairs she helped to design thatused some of the same paper layering techniques;
there’s of course her favourite WeChatsticker, then there are photos of the library;
of the founders; of their trip to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng];of the Hermès window display’ some of them
(31:19):
and the other local buzzing around the village;and also some from my own time I the village too.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I would have loved to include
a catch-up chat with Noah Sheldon now, since hewas the one who nominated Jovana from Season 01.
But he never gets back to me, and in theend I simply gave up trying. So instead,
(31:42):
there is a catch-up with the lovely Roz Colemanfrom Season 01 Episode 22 right after this.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Roz.
Roz Coleman (32:03):
Hello, Oscar. OF:
You're a sight for sore eyes. Because actually,when we did our recording you were basically
in your last few weeks in China. And thenoff you went, and I haven't seen you since.
RC (32:17):
So true. After I left you, I just went travelling for four months, to be able to see
where I've been living for three years. Likearound China, Philippines, and then Vietnam,
and then Cambodia, I went and took a 10 day silentmeditation retreat in Myanmar, went from there to
(32:38):
Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, blah, blah, blah. Andthen I was back in London, what, three months,
before we could sort of see Corona coming overthe horizon. And, yeah, I think we started to
work remotely probably sooner than everyone else,because all my Chinese friends kept being like
“Are you OK? Keep safe, keep distance, wear a maskand everything. Don't listen to your government,
(33:00):
and herd immunity, everything”. And I'm stillworking for Punchdrunk. But, you know, we were
basically locked down by February. And then theweirdest thing happened, which is that my sister
was supposed to be going to work for MSF. But shecame via London and got trapped with us as well.
OF (33:14):
Oh, wow. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I wanted to interrupt you quickly, because
people who are listening to this episode might nothave heard your episode, so don't really know what
the hell it is that you were doing in China. So Ishould say that you were the International Company
Manager of Sleep No More here in Shanghai, right?RC: That's right. For, I guess,
(33:35):
two and a half, three years.OF: Right. The interesting thing
about Sleep No More is that it was immersivetheatre, where people are very close together.
And we discussed that in our episode. Sowhat has happened to immersive theatre
during the Coronavirus era?RC: It's an amazing thing to be able
to say that it's still rolling.OF: Wow.
RC (33:56):
The shows… There have, of course, had to be amendments, not least because anybody who left
that Chinese New Year - to go on holiday or to seefamily - a lot of them weren't able to come back
into town. And two of the remaining rehearsaldirectors were able to train up a much more local
(34:17):
company, in a very short period of time. They wereneeding to sterilise everything in the building,
and really up the cleaning of everything.And they pulled out every trick in the book,
really. And I often think that because theatreis so used to telling people what to do, or
gently guiding people in the right direction,that it's actually one of the best placed
industries to, you know, roll out some of thoseinfection prevention procedures. But it’s that,
(34:44):
will people feel comfortable being back in thespace? And we were just amazed to discover that,
yeah, the audience were really happy to come back.OF: Yes. Well let's pivot, because I want to
talk about all the things that you taught me.The concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’, for example,
there aren't many days where I don't thinkabout that. Now that you are outside of China,
living your life in London - or at least,now, a version of your life - do you also
(35:08):
reflect on ‘Shanghai Flow’? And are thereany equivalents that you've seen in London?
That's such a lovely question. I remember when I was still in Shanghai, one of the company
members saying to me “I went on The Tube whenI went back home”, he was visiting his mother,
“And it was so hectic, and it was soaggressive, and I really miss China”.
And at that time, I thought “What's he talkingabout?” But when I got back to Liverpool Street,
(35:31):
you know, a year or so later, I reflected, he wastotally right. It's not the ‘Shanghai Flow’ style,
by any stretch of the imagination. Butpeople are just mardy on public transit.
OF (35:41):
‘Mardy’, Can you explain to people not from the UK what ‘mardy’ means?
RC (35:47):
Oh, yeah, sure thing, sorry. Such a colloquialism. ‘Mardy’ is like a more humorous,
less harsh version of ‘grumpy’, maybe.OF: Well explained, very nice.
But what's been super interesting has been the way in which people are giving way
a lot more. It feels a lot less fraught onthe roads, people have more patience. And
(36:13):
that's definitely true for the street. Like,we're really missing entrances and exits,
I think, for greeting friends. And so I have somefriends who give each other like a deep, long bow
of respect when they arrive to a meeting. Orother friends who sort of do a little dance
with cuddling themselves, like, to signify“I wish I could cuddle you, but I can’t,
(36:35):
so I’ll cuddle myself”. And those sort of actsof grace and understanding and patience are…
that kind of reminds me of Shanghai, in a way.OF: Wow, this is where I'm slightly out of my
depth, because we're not really comparingyour life in China to your life in London.
(36:57):
It's really comparing life in London before,and life in London now, and whatever life in
London will be later. It's almost beyond thescope of this podcast right now, isn’t it?
So true. And I feel like we really can't predict how it's gonna
go for, like, a few generations.OF: Mmm. Well, you did give me a great
(37:19):
referral for Season 2. Sadly, that referral didn'twork out. But I did find a nice replacement. So
you will still be part of the future seasons,and there'll still be some kind of connection.
But I wanted to say, you know, thank youagain for our original interview. I learned
a lot about general life in Shanghai from you,that I otherwise would would not have learned.
(37:40):
Including, I must say, the best descriptionof experiencing karaoke in Asia out of anyone
in the series. So thank you againfor being part of this project, Roz.
Ah thank you so much. It's been an absolute joy, and it's really kept me company, you know,
through all this lockdown, beingable to hear how everyone's going and
(38:02):
staying up to date with the podcast and howit's been moving through the year. And I think,
especially as we moved into these extraordinarytimes, just such a useful ‘comrade in arms’ of
like, “How is the other side of the world doing?”It's felt like a very magic portal into a place I
(38:23):
really miss. So that's super nice, thank you.OF: Thank you Roz, and we will have you
back as soon as you can come back.RC: Thanks, I look forward to it.
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