February 17, 2020 • 28 mins
At the time of recording, Roz Coleman was the International Company Manager of the immersive theatre experience “Sleep No More” in Shanghai. This has given Roz a unique appreciation of audience responses in different countries and cultures, and during our short chat she shares some great observations about human behavioural traits in China. The obvious irony is that our discussion covers audience behaviour in environments where people are crammed together and inhabiting each other’s space. Well of course that’s not what we’re experiencing now in February 2020, with most facets of everyday life on lockdown in China. I hope that my chat with Roz will be a good reminder that our current situation is only temporary. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:33 - Part 1 14:19 - Part 2 26:13 - Outro 28:25 - Easter Egg Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]RC: He grinned his
(00:03):
head off and he said “Don’t party, won't finish”!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is with Roz Coleman, whowas the International Company Manager of
the immersive theatre experience Sleep No Morein Shanghai. If this phrase ‘immersive theatre’
(00:28):
means nothing to you, then don't worry,since we defined it with some examples
very early in our conversation.And I'm using the past tense here,
I was lucky to grab Roz for this interview lastyear before she left this role, and left Shanghai.
Being in the world of immersive theatrehas given Roz a unique appreciation of
audience responses in different countries andcultures, and I learned a lot from her about
(00:52):
audience behaviour in China in this shortchat. But I'll give you all a heads up,
the thing I am most grateful for in thisconversation is my introduction to the
concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’. For anyone livingnot just in Shanghai, but any busy city in China,
I strongly urge you to listen out forRoz’s explanation, and embrace this idea.
Let me address the elephant in the room, this isthe second episode that I'm releasing during the
(01:17):
time of the coronavirus outbreak. It's February2020, and the obvious irony in my conversation
with Roz is that we talked about immersive theatrewith audiences cramming together and inhabiting
each other's space. Well, of course, that's notwhat we're experiencing now. Shanghai street life
has ground to a halt. It's now as peacefulas a small village, and everyone is keeping
(01:38):
their distance from each other. The lane by myhouse now has a locked gate at the end of it,
so only residents can enter and exit. Mylocal restaurants and cafés are mostly shut,
and the ones that are open have beenasked by the government to only sell
food for takeout. And then even going intothose stores - to order food to go - usually
requires the wearing of a face mask andsubmitting yourself to a temperature check.
(02:03):
As brutal as all of this sounds, I personallydon't find any of these restrictions stressful,
I actually find them quite comforting. Andeveryone's strict adherence to these tough
rules only makes me feel more certain thatChina and the Chinese people are on top of
this. To everyone listening to this inChina right now, I hope you agree with
those sentiments. And despite all of yourcurrent discomforts, I also hope that my
(02:27):
chat with Roz will be a good reminder thatour current situation is only temporary.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you so much
for coming, Roz. I'm here with Roz Coleman. AndRoz, until recently, you've been the International
Company Manager of ‘Sleep No More’ here in China.RC: That's right. Thank you so much for having me.
OF (02:46):
Thank you for coming. And just to explain further, you are a freelancer, but you've been
working with Sleep No More for how many years now?RC: That's right, I've been here now for
a little over two and a half years.OF: Right. And so the first question
I ask is, what object have you brought in?RC: Jingle jangle. This here is my bunch
(03:07):
of keys. It's my bunch of keys that has, mostimportantly on it, my bicycle keys. And that's the
key to my freedom in Shanghai, my riding around,my most favourite activity perhaps of all time
in my entire life. And I have some other keys onhere as well. I do, of course, have a house key,
even though I'm somewhat nomadic at themoment. And I also have this key here, which
(03:31):
feels appropriate since it was given to me by mycohorts at Sleep No More as a - almost, what can
you say - retirement present, and it representsthe Hotel McKinnon. And it represents, like,
actually, my entire time in Shanghai here. I'vealways been at home making theatre in places which
(03:52):
aren’t theatres. I've worked in the undercroft ofa war memorial, and derelict office blocks, and in
forests, and on beaches, and in sights of specialscientific interest, in cathedrals… And I'm a
member of an artistic collective called KlangHaus,which says ‘What if these walls could talk,
literally?’, and makes music and light and shadowabout the ghosts which inhabit our buildings.
(04:18):
And just before you go further, can you explain what Sleep No More is,
to people who don't know what it is.RC: I would often describe it as a game
of hide and seek in a haunted house, based in ahotel. But I suppose a more literal description of
it would be, you show up to an elevator, you'retold to leave your worldly possessions behind,
(04:42):
you're told to follow your own path and thatfortune favours the bold, and for the next
few hours you will spend your time craftingyour own story and landscape and narrative,
as you follow extremely physical performers actingout this story amongst many thousands of other
stories hidden in the walls of the hotel.OF: That's well done,
(05:05):
you’ve obviously done that a few times.RC: Actually, that was the first one that kind of
fell out a bit like more formed than I'd expected.I suppose I've been immersed in it for some time
now. This is my first international experience, ina way, of seeing immersive received. I have done
a bit in Australia when I was touring with Circa.And I have seen elements in New York, and I have
(05:29):
got an international perspective on it. But it isso interesting to be here and see an international
response. Now, when I was touring Circa, I wouldof course see the way in which applause differs.
In France, you will do six encores, at least.And it will be an absolute tirade of standing
ovations and applause. In Germany, things aretaken quite seriously, but the applause will be
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very present and a big part of your departure fromthe stage. In Ireland, there’ll always be a Q&A,
and you'll never be able to leave, andyou'll have to escape through the back door,
because everybody's talking for ages and ages andages and simply can't stop. But China's really
my first experience of seeing such a completelydifferent international perspective. And I think,
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as well, because whereas in UK, Europe, New York,etc, we have this slow-burning trajectory of the
history of immersive theatre - how it began,you know, we feel like we're in a theatre when
we go to an immersive show, whether we're incarpark or cathedral - whereas here in Shanghai,
the show has really been chair-lifted into thecentre of town, with no prior examples to follow.
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And so it's extremely interesting as well, fromthat sense, to not only see an international
audience response, but to see them respondingto immersive theatre for the first time,
with a show that is actually quite developedfrom that timeline, if that makes sense.
Right. So what have you seen, then, the reaction being here in China, were you surprised?
RC (07:02):
We have seen so many millions of little surprises that have entirely subverted any
of our preconceived notions as well of how peoplebehave in immersive theatre. Because a huge amount
of your work as a producer of immersive, and asa performer, and as a director, is to somewhat
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second-guess your audience and say “Well, ifwe put them in this low-lighting experience,
and we play this extremely loud noise at thispoint, they're more than likely to do this…”,
and anticipating how you're going to take care ofpeople. One of the things I think is absolutely
primary in immersive is the way that you take careof people. And we say that we should look after
every single person who comes in through thosedoors as if they were our 90-year-old grandmother,
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because this is the first time for them. Andwe're used to the environment, but of course
everybody new coming in is not. And so we wouldsee, for example, in New York, or in London,
a phenomenon that I personally refer to as the‘polite horseshoe’, which is a semicircle of,
let's say, 10 feets’ worth of standing backaway from an artistic event, in order that
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you a) don't crowd the performers; and that youb), crucially, do not get in the sight-lines of
any of your fellow audience members. And this isa thing that has been absolutely confounded in
Shanghai. It really is a moth surrounded a flame.It really is like the performers have the light,
and you should be as close to the light as youpossibly can without getting burned. And it's that
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proximity to the action that's so important. Thatway of paying attention, I can imagine that some
of these moments have had their closest moments ofattention here in Shanghai. And I've seen it again
in Dragon Boat Festival a couple of years ago.I was sitting on the grass in Jing’An Park, and
there was a line of drummers going up and down ina parade. And I could watch that from a distance,
(09:01):
because that was some loud drums. But what I sawwas audience standing right next to a guy with a
snare drum around his neck, hammering away at it,and audience standing right right next to him and
following them all the way down there, then allthe way back up here, then all the way down there,
then all the way back up here. And I was like “Youdon't need to go all the way down there. You know
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they’re coming all the way back up here. You canjust stand there”. But I realised, that's not the
point. The point is that you get in the art. AndI think when we've started to inhabit this notion
of how that is OK - and lovely, actually, and sopassionate, and a really valid and interesting
way of paying attention - the performerswithin the show have really got accustomed to,
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and very comfortable with, somebody coming rightup to their face to see what's going on in the
immersive environment of the show.OF: So how did you unpick that?
So I guess the first thing that I need to speak about is ‘Shanghai Flow’. This
is a phenomenon that we all encounter, thefirst moment that we step off any elevator,
(10:07):
any vehicle of public transport in Shanghai, andnavigate one of its busy streets. And that is
something that I love to see when I'm ridingmy bike, because it's so aware, so lacking
in aggression. But it can appear aggressive,because the thing about ‘flow’ is it has to flow,
it has to go in order to flow. And so when yousee somebody cut in front of you on a scooter,
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or somebody come piling into the train carriage asyou're trying to get off, that’s the thing that I
would describe as 'Shanghai Flow’. And we see thatin audiences around the building all the time,
a way of getting front and centre first, and -even if you weren't first - feeling absolutely
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content to stand directly in front of the face ofthe person who got there before you, in order that
you can see the best version of the show that youwant to see. Because you're invested, and that's
your purpose, and you're clear about your purpose.OF: I've never heard of that ‘Shanghai Flow’
concept. It's obviously somethingwhich I should know about, right?
It's up there. It's top 10 in my Shanghai experiences, and I've seen it in other bits and
(11:18):
pieces. I saw it in a lovely book by KazuoIshiguro called ‘When We Were Orphans’,
and that's based in the 1920s - and then the1930s - in Shanghai, so it feels close to the
era of the show that we're producing here as well.And he is talking about, even then, the Shanghai
Flow in the International Settlement as much asoutside of it. And I've loved getting to know
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this sense of awareness, which says “OK, if youare in my peripheral vision, and I can see you,
and you look like you could go first, then I willalter my behaviour, and I will give you the floor,
and you can go first. But if you are behindmy peripheral vision, or to the side of it,
and you can see that I'm going, and I couldjust go and flow, then I will expect you to
(12:07):
alter your behaviour, and let me go past.” Andthe way that people really do adapt to make sure
that everybody's safe means that you can have areal chaos of excitement in the streets that can
feel quite daunting to a lot of people - andthey feel strange to just stride out into the
road and imagine that cars are going to stop -but it's now something I can't switch off, and
I'm probably gonna get run over as soon as I go.OF: Yeah, you've explained that so well, and I
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think anyone living in Shanghai will immediatelyrecognise what you're describing. Although,
to have that definition, it's almost like a secretkey. Because I think, especially with someone like
myself, I can be very impatient. And I see myselflosing my grace slightly when I feel that it's not
fair. You know, the British side of me, “I washere first, queue in the right order”. Those
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moments where you really lose it, you realise “Ohyou know what, this is on me, not on anyone else”.
I love that. I think that's such a right acknowledgement. And I think as well in the show,
we would feel “How do we navigate this extremeproximity?” And that politeness, you know, like,
there's something from time to time in thatpoliteness that can feel a bit like contempt,
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or that it's an excuse to actually feelriled, or put on the back foot by something,
and feel like it's cut up your day. And the flowthat you have here isn't something that you'd find
somewhere else in the world. In fact, it's thecompletely opposite phenomenon. I was reading an
article recently about women in New York, who'vedeliberately stopped moving out of the way for
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men who are walking towards them.OF: Oh, wow, I love that.
And it hadn't been a thing that I'd noticed, you know. I do all the time,
I hop out of the way for people, I yield, Igive way, I do that so much. The thing that
actually happens is if you stop doing that,you start rugby tackling people. You start,
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like, American football shoulder barging people,and you need pads, you know. And so it kind of
alerted me to this thing that I didn't realise Iunconsciously do. And I think I've started to try
and unpick that, as well, in my daily life.OF: I love that idea, just as a sense of
everyday liberation. Thankyou so much for that, Roz.
Such a pleasure. OF
(14:18):
[Part 2]OF: What's your favourite China-related fact?
There are 10 million Chinese people entering the middle classes every year in China. Which
I find to be absolutely astounding, but to makeperfect sense. And that when I see the hunger for
experiential art, and finding new things to do, Ican attribute it a lot to a country that's really
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saying, like “OK, we're here, this is where we'regoing, this is what we're going to do, this is how
we wanna spend our time.” It's just time travel.It's Shanghai time, it moves so fast, and I feel
like you can see that in that fact, somehow.OF: Mmm. Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?RC: I have so many.
But I am going to tell you a phrase that wastaught to me by James, my boxing instructor:
(15:11):
天下没有不散的宴席 [Tiānxià méiyǒu búsàn de yànxí].OF: Oh, so explain what it means.
So when I asked James what it means, he grinned his head off and he said “Don’t party,
won't finish”! And he threw his head back andlaughed. And I was like “What does it mean don’t
party won’t finish?” I was like “This is perfect,I've never had a leaving party for anywhere I've
(15:33):
ever lived,” under the auspices of the fact that Iwould then be able to return because I never left.
You know, don't have a party, it won't finish, youcan always come back. I love it, I love it, I love
it. Actually, what it means is, 'all good thingsmust come to an end’ or ‘in the whole world,
there is not one party that will not finish’. Andit's got such a bitter-sweet longing sense to it.
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And when I tell people that that's my favouriteexpression, they all go “天啊 [Tiān’a]!” And
everybody can really feel it, actually, when yousay that. It's a bit like ‘this too shall pass’.
OF (16:07):
Wow, that's so lovely. What's your favourite destination within China?
RC (16:12):
I think my favourite one is 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. And I love that you can get there so quickly
and be in the 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] hills, and thenwalking around and then drinking tea on that
mountainside. I really love the way thatmountains are transformative here in the
way that - you know, they're not necessarilythe big mountains, those ones but like - you
can still feel the kind of sense of humour, andthe work ethic, and the transformative nature
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of them when you go up and then come down.OF: If you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?RC: I really will desperately miss the way
in which your food and your daily lifeis so casual, and on the street, and
everybody is on the street. Like, on my street,everyone’s playing badminton, and hanging out,
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and there's a fruit and you just get it. And,like, people using the street as a playground,
as a space to shoot the breeze and comparenotes on the order of the day. And so I hope
that I'm gonna continue to see that in the UK ifI go back, but I’ll really miss that sense here.
OF (17:18):
Yeah, I actually really agree with you. It's funny, when I first came to Shanghai,
you only really see the big streets, the 南京西路[Nánjīng Xīlù], and the 中山路 [Zhōngshān Lù],
and you think “Eugh, who could live in a placelike this? It's so big and inhuman.” And then
when you live here, you realise that life takesplace on the little lanes off the sides of those
big streets. And that's exactly what you'redescribing, I couldn't have put it better. And
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what about the thing you’ll missed the least?RC: The thing that I will miss the least is
something that I will walk straight intowherever else I go. And in a way, as well,
I actually kind of love it for the way that it'schanged me. And that is the construction noise.
And the way that you experience constructionnoise here is that you have to let it go.
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Because the sound of progress is what'sgoing on here. We're building, we're moving,
we're going. It's not that I don't hear it anylonger, it’s that I am somehow OK with it. And so,
while I intensely dislike the construction noise,it has taught me things about myself that I
never expected I had the capacity for.OF: Eugh, your sickening positivity.
RC (18:28):
It's quite aggressive, isn't it? OF
still surprises you about life in China?RC: Everything. I mean, I think if there's
something that surprises me, it's that I stillhave capacity to be surprised. You know, like,
“How am I surprised when this is my every day?”You know, every new thing that I learned and
every new quirk of the language… My friendJean taught me this lovely one the other day,
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it was something about how if people tellyou that they met watching the football,
then it means that they met when they werein prison. And I was like “How do you even
find something like that out?” Like…OF: That's actually a thing, is it?
Seemingly, yeah. OF
place to go out, to eat, to drink, to hang out?RC: I think one of my favourite venues - in the
(19:17):
entire world, never mind Shanghai - has to be ALLon 襄阳北路 [Xiāngyáng Běilù]. I think what Gaz has
done there is absolutely astounding. The soundsystem is unparalleled. Whenever I get there,
it's the same story every time. I'm like “Do this.Put your bags and coats here. Let's get a drink.
Right, now come in here. Now we're going to doa dance”. And then I'm like a four-year-old,
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I'm like “Listen, can you hear me talking? Youcan hear me talking, but you can feel the bass,
right? You can hear me talking, but you canfeel the bass?” It’s like, my friends laugh
at me because they're like “Roz, I know. We'vedone this before. You've literally showed me
this five times”. “I know, but I can't believehow good the sound is in here”. And what I love
is that any new music that's happening in there,people will say “Oh, but I don't think I like Trap
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music. I don't like Footwork. I don't think I'minto industrial techno”. But they go in there,
they hear that, as soon as you're in frontof the DJ, you’re dancing straightaway,
because it’s always high quality programming.OF: Next question, what is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?RC: I think the best revelation
of how to purchase things has been the fabricmarket. And we have this thing in the company,
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with all the performers, which is ‘Fabric MarketFinery’. And if you're having a house party,
or little dinner event for people, then youmight say “Wear your best fabric market finery”
as if the event itself was somehow black tie. So Iwent and got a dress made and it's bright orange,
and it's made of silk, and it's down to the floor,and it's a copy of a dress that Omagbitse gave me,
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and it's like the size of a parachute, and it'simpossible to ride a bike in, and I love it.
OF (20:50):
Oh man, I would be so intimidated going out with you, with my jeans and T-shirt. Eugh.
RC (20:56):
I mean, we love a costume party. We feel like there should be at least one a month. The one that
actually happened for my leaving party, the themeof that one was ‘The best and worst of Taobao’.
And so everybody came in their Taobao unholy hotmess. And it was like ensembles that had been put
together, like a spray of neon and LED lightsand silver foil. It was absolutely despicable.
OF (21:22):
Let's move on. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
RC (21:26):
One of my absolute first stickers in Shanghai, let me just show you… here you are. ‘Orange
Dancing Boy’, or ‘Orange Boy’. I mean, he'sanother door opening in a way because then after
that, you have to collect every single one thatthis kid has been a part of. So there’s ‘Orange
Boy’, there’s also ‘Green Boy’, there's also‘Purple Boy’, they're all the same boy. He has
different outfits on. He's always dancing, dancingwith a joy that is unparalleled by anybody else's
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dancing. It's completely unselfconscious. I liketo think that he doesn't know that he's a WeChat
sticker, like, and that there's not going to bethat problematic thing of putting your kids on the
internet, and then they grow up to resent you.Whenever we find a new one - because he's such
an amazing series - I instantly have to send thenew one that I found to my great and dear friend,
(22:14):
Orange Elephant. Because we have been so obsessedwith the portfolio of his works for so long,
that as soon as there’s one that we haven'tseen before, that’s it, it goes straight to her.
OF (22:24):
I love it. You've sent me all four of them. And do you know what, I'm gonna blow
your mind right now.RC: Uh-oh.
I actually have two extra stickers to send to you.
RC (22:34):
Oh my goodness gosh, of Orange Boy? OF
Oh! He’s still wearing the purple shirt! OF
here’s the second one.RC: That's impossible.
OF (22:48):
I haven't seen, actually, the orange and green ones. So you do win,
I'm not trying to one-up you here.RC: Right, no, I mean, it's not a
competition. It’s just the furtherance of moreamazing stickers. That's what we need in life.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? RC
(23:09):
I think about karaoke here. The American style- the Western style, let’s call it - is to,
like, take this microphone, get up, prance aboutlike everybody's looking at you, like you have
to do some sort of performance, like you have tomake it into some sort of big deal or something.
When actually you could just sit there, choose aload of songs, whoever's the best one at singing
it - or wants to sing it - can sing that song, sitback, do the song to a really high quality level,
(23:33):
as if you're playing a game, and then pass the micto the next person. If you get bored, you don’t
have to finish the song. And so, one of the thingsthat we have a tendency to do at KTV is just to
rush on in there, get everything on order, andthen choose all of the ones that we know. And then
somebody can just take it, like, if they want totake it. I think that time that I most ingratiated
(23:53):
a room was doing a duet with my mate, Ben, toBonnie Tyler's ‘Total Eclipse of the Heart’.
Oh, a classic. RC
I'm really happy to like, again, just let go ofthe experience and be, like, just pick any ones we
actually know the words to, and we'll all jump in.OF: And finally, what other China-related media
or sources of information do you rely on?RC: Yes, such a good question. I really love
(24:19):
Radii, you know those guys? It’s sort of givingyou like the full-circle perspective on loads
of Chinese culture. And so it's where I read ahuge amount about Chinese hip-hop in particular,
but loads of Chinese music, a lot of Chinesemetal acts as well. And where I hear about,
like, phenomena that are happeningon the internet, on Weibo, like,
(24:42):
what's going to be the next big thing, andwhat everybody's talking about, and everybody's
responses to this and that. Yeah, it's alwayswritten with a real style and wit and humour.
Well Roz, that was great, thank you so much for that. I feel like, even though you've
been here for a shorter time than me, you havecompletely cleaned the floor with your knowledge,
(25:04):
and how you've settled into life here inShanghai. Well, the last question that I ask
you - and I ask everyone on this show - is, outof all the people you know in China, who is the
one person you'd recommend that I interview next?RC: I think - being led by a question like that,
who's the person you should interview next - I'mgoing to think immediately of my friend Alan. I
don't know if you've met him before, but he usedto be a professional tennis player. My story with
(25:28):
him was that I was praying to the universefor some absolutely astounding accommodation
for a performer who was coming in who's gotexquisite taste. And I had been struggling,
you know, like putting Airbnbs and variousthings in front of him, saying “What about
this? What about this?” And then, lo andbehold, there was Alan, and his lovely wife,
(25:50):
with their beautiful apartment. And so, becauseof the spirit of cross pollination, and Shanghai
people always helping one another out, I thinkhe's gonna be my next Shanghailander of choice.
Great. Well, I look forward to meeting Alan. And thank you again so much Roz.
RC (26:08):
Such a pleasure., thank you so much for having me.
[Outro]OF: Ever since
I recorded this episode last year, I've beenthinking about ‘Shanghai Flow’. No-one stops,
no-one looks behind them, but everyonekeeps going. And so long as you're watchful
to the rules of the flow, you should have noreason for aggravation or injury. Right now,
(26:30):
I can't believe how much I missing it -even with the potential for aggravation
and injury - and when Roz said that she'll missthe street-life of Shanghai when she leaves,
I'm sure anyone in China listening to this rightnow was joining in the chorus “We miss it too!”
I've posted lots of photos online, pleasesearch for @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
and @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or add me onWeChat on my ID, mosaicofchina, and I'll add
(26:54):
you to the group there. There's Roz with herkeys, including the key to the McKinnon hotel,
which is the venue of Sleep No More; there are,of course, photos of inside the venue, where you
see the immersive theatre experience. And Iasked Roz if she could share any other photos
from some of the other immersive theatre piecesshe mentioned in our chat. She shared three;
one was of a treehouse show called ‘Air Hotel’that took place in a forest; one was a show
(27:19):
called ‘Walking’, which took place on a beachin Norfolk in the UK; and the final one was the
world's largest disco ball in a car park. Thereyou go. She mentioned also touring with Circa,
this is a contemporary circus troupe fromAustralia, and I posted a few photos from them
too. What else? There are photos from a couple ofthe articles that mentioned the phenomenon of the
(27:43):
women not yielding to men who are walking in ahurry in cities like New York. In one article,
this was given the name ‘Man-slamming”. Youch.There are photos of her favourite venue, ALL;
there is the phrase 天下没有不散的宴席 [tiānxià méiyǒubúsàn de yànxí], which translates to ‘all good
things must come to an end’. The best literaltranslation I could find is ‘there's no such
(28:05):
thing as a never-ending feast’. Oh, and Ialmost forgot, her favourite WeChat stickers.
I’ve posted all of her favourite dancing boystickers, and I've added the extra two from me,
just for good measure. Thank you, WeChat stickerBoy, you are helping to keep us all sane.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, artworkby Denny Newell, and extra support from Milo
(28:25):
de Prieto and Alston Gong. Next week isanother good one, I will see you then.
[Easter Egg]OF: I'm very glad that there's a Brit in my house today. RC: Really?
OF (28:44):
Because only a Brit would understand what I did this morning. RC
I had last night's curry for breakfast. RC
Would you do that? RC
is a really good breakfast food.OF: Thank you.
[Trailer]RC: He grinned his
(00:03):
head off and he said “Don’t party, won't finish”!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is with Roz Coleman, whowas the International Company Manager of
the immersive theatre experience Sleep No Morein Shanghai. If this phrase ‘immersive theatre’
(00:28):
means nothing to you, then don't worry,since we defined it with some examples
very early in our conversation.And I'm using the past tense here,
I was lucky to grab Roz for this interview lastyear before she left this role, and left Shanghai.
Being in the world of immersive theatrehas given Roz a unique appreciation of
audience responses in different countries andcultures, and I learned a lot from her about
(00:52):
audience behaviour in China in this shortchat. But I'll give you all a heads up,
the thing I am most grateful for in thisconversation is my introduction to the
concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’. For anyone livingnot just in Shanghai, but any busy city in China,
I strongly urge you to listen out forRoz’s explanation, and embrace this idea.
Let me address the elephant in the room, this isthe second episode that I'm releasing during the
(01:17):
time of the coronavirus outbreak. It's February2020, and the obvious irony in my conversation
with Roz is that we talked about immersive theatrewith audiences cramming together and inhabiting
each other's space. Well, of course, that's notwhat we're experiencing now. Shanghai street life
has ground to a halt. It's now as peacefulas a small village, and everyone is keeping
(01:38):
their distance from each other. The lane by myhouse now has a locked gate at the end of it,
so only residents can enter and exit. Mylocal restaurants and cafés are mostly shut,
and the ones that are open have beenasked by the government to only sell
food for takeout. And then even going intothose stores - to order food to go - usually
requires the wearing of a face mask andsubmitting yourself to a temperature check.
(02:03):
As brutal as all of this sounds, I personallydon't find any of these restrictions stressful,
I actually find them quite comforting. Andeveryone's strict adherence to these tough
rules only makes me feel more certain thatChina and the Chinese people are on top of
this. To everyone listening to this inChina right now, I hope you agree with
those sentiments. And despite all of yourcurrent discomforts, I also hope that my
(02:27):
chat with Roz will be a good reminder thatour current situation is only temporary.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you so much
for coming, Roz. I'm here with Roz Coleman. AndRoz, until recently, you've been the International
Company Manager of ‘Sleep No More’ here in China.RC: That's right. Thank you so much for having me.
OF (02:46):
Thank you for coming. And just to explain further, you are a freelancer, but you've been
working with Sleep No More for how many years now?RC: That's right, I've been here now for
a little over two and a half years.OF: Right. And so the first question
I ask is, what object have you brought in?RC: Jingle jangle. This here is my bunch
(03:07):
of keys. It's my bunch of keys that has, mostimportantly on it, my bicycle keys. And that's the
key to my freedom in Shanghai, my riding around,my most favourite activity perhaps of all time
in my entire life. And I have some other keys onhere as well. I do, of course, have a house key,
even though I'm somewhat nomadic at themoment. And I also have this key here, which
(03:31):
feels appropriate since it was given to me by mycohorts at Sleep No More as a - almost, what can
you say - retirement present, and it representsthe Hotel McKinnon. And it represents, like,
actually, my entire time in Shanghai here. I'vealways been at home making theatre in places which
(03:52):
aren’t theatres. I've worked in the undercroft ofa war memorial, and derelict office blocks, and in
forests, and on beaches, and in sights of specialscientific interest, in cathedrals… And I'm a
member of an artistic collective called KlangHaus,which says ‘What if these walls could talk,
literally?’, and makes music and light and shadowabout the ghosts which inhabit our buildings.
(04:18):
And just before you go further, can you explain what Sleep No More is,
to people who don't know what it is.RC: I would often describe it as a game
of hide and seek in a haunted house, based in ahotel. But I suppose a more literal description of
it would be, you show up to an elevator, you'retold to leave your worldly possessions behind,
(04:42):
you're told to follow your own path and thatfortune favours the bold, and for the next
few hours you will spend your time craftingyour own story and landscape and narrative,
as you follow extremely physical performers actingout this story amongst many thousands of other
stories hidden in the walls of the hotel.OF: That's well done,
(05:05):
you’ve obviously done that a few times.RC: Actually, that was the first one that kind of
fell out a bit like more formed than I'd expected.I suppose I've been immersed in it for some time
now. This is my first international experience, ina way, of seeing immersive received. I have done
a bit in Australia when I was touring with Circa.And I have seen elements in New York, and I have
(05:29):
got an international perspective on it. But it isso interesting to be here and see an international
response. Now, when I was touring Circa, I wouldof course see the way in which applause differs.
In France, you will do six encores, at least.And it will be an absolute tirade of standing
ovations and applause. In Germany, things aretaken quite seriously, but the applause will be
(05:53):
very present and a big part of your departure fromthe stage. In Ireland, there’ll always be a Q&A,
and you'll never be able to leave, andyou'll have to escape through the back door,
because everybody's talking for ages and ages andages and simply can't stop. But China's really
my first experience of seeing such a completelydifferent international perspective. And I think,
(06:16):
as well, because whereas in UK, Europe, New York,etc, we have this slow-burning trajectory of the
history of immersive theatre - how it began,you know, we feel like we're in a theatre when
we go to an immersive show, whether we're incarpark or cathedral - whereas here in Shanghai,
the show has really been chair-lifted into thecentre of town, with no prior examples to follow.
(06:41):
And so it's extremely interesting as well, fromthat sense, to not only see an international
audience response, but to see them respondingto immersive theatre for the first time,
with a show that is actually quite developedfrom that timeline, if that makes sense.
Right. So what have you seen, then, the reaction being here in China, were you surprised?
RC (07:02):
We have seen so many millions of little surprises that have entirely subverted any
of our preconceived notions as well of how peoplebehave in immersive theatre. Because a huge amount
of your work as a producer of immersive, and asa performer, and as a director, is to somewhat
(07:25):
second-guess your audience and say “Well, ifwe put them in this low-lighting experience,
and we play this extremely loud noise at thispoint, they're more than likely to do this…”,
and anticipating how you're going to take care ofpeople. One of the things I think is absolutely
primary in immersive is the way that you take careof people. And we say that we should look after
every single person who comes in through thosedoors as if they were our 90-year-old grandmother,
(07:49):
because this is the first time for them. Andwe're used to the environment, but of course
everybody new coming in is not. And so we wouldsee, for example, in New York, or in London,
a phenomenon that I personally refer to as the‘polite horseshoe’, which is a semicircle of,
let's say, 10 feets’ worth of standing backaway from an artistic event, in order that
(08:14):
you a) don't crowd the performers; and that youb), crucially, do not get in the sight-lines of
any of your fellow audience members. And this isa thing that has been absolutely confounded in
Shanghai. It really is a moth surrounded a flame.It really is like the performers have the light,
and you should be as close to the light as youpossibly can without getting burned. And it's that
(08:38):
proximity to the action that's so important. Thatway of paying attention, I can imagine that some
of these moments have had their closest moments ofattention here in Shanghai. And I've seen it again
in Dragon Boat Festival a couple of years ago.I was sitting on the grass in Jing’An Park, and
there was a line of drummers going up and down ina parade. And I could watch that from a distance,
(09:01):
because that was some loud drums. But what I sawwas audience standing right next to a guy with a
snare drum around his neck, hammering away at it,and audience standing right right next to him and
following them all the way down there, then allthe way back up here, then all the way down there,
then all the way back up here. And I was like “Youdon't need to go all the way down there. You know
(09:22):
they’re coming all the way back up here. You canjust stand there”. But I realised, that's not the
point. The point is that you get in the art. AndI think when we've started to inhabit this notion
of how that is OK - and lovely, actually, and sopassionate, and a really valid and interesting
way of paying attention - the performerswithin the show have really got accustomed to,
(09:44):
and very comfortable with, somebody coming rightup to their face to see what's going on in the
immersive environment of the show.OF: So how did you unpick that?
So I guess the first thing that I need to speak about is ‘Shanghai Flow’. This
is a phenomenon that we all encounter, thefirst moment that we step off any elevator,
(10:07):
any vehicle of public transport in Shanghai, andnavigate one of its busy streets. And that is
something that I love to see when I'm ridingmy bike, because it's so aware, so lacking
in aggression. But it can appear aggressive,because the thing about ‘flow’ is it has to flow,
it has to go in order to flow. And so when yousee somebody cut in front of you on a scooter,
(10:32):
or somebody come piling into the train carriage asyou're trying to get off, that’s the thing that I
would describe as 'Shanghai Flow’. And we see thatin audiences around the building all the time,
a way of getting front and centre first, and -even if you weren't first - feeling absolutely
(10:52):
content to stand directly in front of the face ofthe person who got there before you, in order that
you can see the best version of the show that youwant to see. Because you're invested, and that's
your purpose, and you're clear about your purpose.OF: I've never heard of that ‘Shanghai Flow’
concept. It's obviously somethingwhich I should know about, right?
It's up there. It's top 10 in my Shanghai experiences, and I've seen it in other bits and
(11:18):
pieces. I saw it in a lovely book by KazuoIshiguro called ‘When We Were Orphans’,
and that's based in the 1920s - and then the1930s - in Shanghai, so it feels close to the
era of the show that we're producing here as well.And he is talking about, even then, the Shanghai
Flow in the International Settlement as much asoutside of it. And I've loved getting to know
(11:43):
this sense of awareness, which says “OK, if youare in my peripheral vision, and I can see you,
and you look like you could go first, then I willalter my behaviour, and I will give you the floor,
and you can go first. But if you are behindmy peripheral vision, or to the side of it,
and you can see that I'm going, and I couldjust go and flow, then I will expect you to
(12:07):
alter your behaviour, and let me go past.” Andthe way that people really do adapt to make sure
that everybody's safe means that you can have areal chaos of excitement in the streets that can
feel quite daunting to a lot of people - andthey feel strange to just stride out into the
road and imagine that cars are going to stop -but it's now something I can't switch off, and
I'm probably gonna get run over as soon as I go.OF: Yeah, you've explained that so well, and I
(12:31):
think anyone living in Shanghai will immediatelyrecognise what you're describing. Although,
to have that definition, it's almost like a secretkey. Because I think, especially with someone like
myself, I can be very impatient. And I see myselflosing my grace slightly when I feel that it's not
fair. You know, the British side of me, “I washere first, queue in the right order”. Those
(12:53):
moments where you really lose it, you realise “Ohyou know what, this is on me, not on anyone else”.
I love that. I think that's such a right acknowledgement. And I think as well in the show,
we would feel “How do we navigate this extremeproximity?” And that politeness, you know, like,
there's something from time to time in thatpoliteness that can feel a bit like contempt,
(13:14):
or that it's an excuse to actually feelriled, or put on the back foot by something,
and feel like it's cut up your day. And the flowthat you have here isn't something that you'd find
somewhere else in the world. In fact, it's thecompletely opposite phenomenon. I was reading an
article recently about women in New York, who'vedeliberately stopped moving out of the way for
(13:35):
men who are walking towards them.OF: Oh, wow, I love that.
And it hadn't been a thing that I'd noticed, you know. I do all the time,
I hop out of the way for people, I yield, Igive way, I do that so much. The thing that
actually happens is if you stop doing that,you start rugby tackling people. You start,
(13:56):
like, American football shoulder barging people,and you need pads, you know. And so it kind of
alerted me to this thing that I didn't realise Iunconsciously do. And I think I've started to try
and unpick that, as well, in my daily life.OF: I love that idea, just as a sense of
everyday liberation. Thankyou so much for that, Roz.
Such a pleasure. OF
(14:18):
[Part 2]OF: What's your favourite China-related fact?
There are 10 million Chinese people entering the middle classes every year in China. Which
I find to be absolutely astounding, but to makeperfect sense. And that when I see the hunger for
experiential art, and finding new things to do, Ican attribute it a lot to a country that's really
(14:46):
saying, like “OK, we're here, this is where we'regoing, this is what we're going to do, this is how
we wanna spend our time.” It's just time travel.It's Shanghai time, it moves so fast, and I feel
like you can see that in that fact, somehow.OF: Mmm. Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?RC: I have so many.
But I am going to tell you a phrase that wastaught to me by James, my boxing instructor:
(15:11):
天下没有不散的宴席 [Tiānxià méiyǒu búsàn de yànxí].OF: Oh, so explain what it means.
So when I asked James what it means, he grinned his head off and he said “Don’t party,
won't finish”! And he threw his head back andlaughed. And I was like “What does it mean don’t
party won’t finish?” I was like “This is perfect,I've never had a leaving party for anywhere I've
(15:33):
ever lived,” under the auspices of the fact that Iwould then be able to return because I never left.
You know, don't have a party, it won't finish, youcan always come back. I love it, I love it, I love
it. Actually, what it means is, 'all good thingsmust come to an end’ or ‘in the whole world,
there is not one party that will not finish’. Andit's got such a bitter-sweet longing sense to it.
(15:56):
And when I tell people that that's my favouriteexpression, they all go “天啊 [Tiān’a]!” And
everybody can really feel it, actually, when yousay that. It's a bit like ‘this too shall pass’.
OF (16:07):
Wow, that's so lovely. What's your favourite destination within China?
RC (16:12):
I think my favourite one is 杭州 [Hángzhōu]. And I love that you can get there so quickly
and be in the 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] hills, and thenwalking around and then drinking tea on that
mountainside. I really love the way thatmountains are transformative here in the
way that - you know, they're not necessarilythe big mountains, those ones but like - you
can still feel the kind of sense of humour, andthe work ethic, and the transformative nature
(16:35):
of them when you go up and then come down.OF: If you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?RC: I really will desperately miss the way
in which your food and your daily lifeis so casual, and on the street, and
everybody is on the street. Like, on my street,everyone’s playing badminton, and hanging out,
(16:56):
and there's a fruit and you just get it. And,like, people using the street as a playground,
as a space to shoot the breeze and comparenotes on the order of the day. And so I hope
that I'm gonna continue to see that in the UK ifI go back, but I’ll really miss that sense here.
OF (17:18):
Yeah, I actually really agree with you. It's funny, when I first came to Shanghai,
you only really see the big streets, the 南京西路[Nánjīng Xīlù], and the 中山路 [Zhōngshān Lù],
and you think “Eugh, who could live in a placelike this? It's so big and inhuman.” And then
when you live here, you realise that life takesplace on the little lanes off the sides of those
big streets. And that's exactly what you'redescribing, I couldn't have put it better. And
(17:40):
what about the thing you’ll missed the least?RC: The thing that I will miss the least is
something that I will walk straight intowherever else I go. And in a way, as well,
I actually kind of love it for the way that it'schanged me. And that is the construction noise.
And the way that you experience constructionnoise here is that you have to let it go.
(18:04):
Because the sound of progress is what'sgoing on here. We're building, we're moving,
we're going. It's not that I don't hear it anylonger, it’s that I am somehow OK with it. And so,
while I intensely dislike the construction noise,it has taught me things about myself that I
never expected I had the capacity for.OF: Eugh, your sickening positivity.
RC (18:28):
It's quite aggressive, isn't it? OF
still surprises you about life in China?RC: Everything. I mean, I think if there's
something that surprises me, it's that I stillhave capacity to be surprised. You know, like,
“How am I surprised when this is my every day?”You know, every new thing that I learned and
every new quirk of the language… My friendJean taught me this lovely one the other day,
(18:51):
it was something about how if people tellyou that they met watching the football,
then it means that they met when they werein prison. And I was like “How do you even
find something like that out?” Like…OF: That's actually a thing, is it?
Seemingly, yeah. OF
place to go out, to eat, to drink, to hang out?RC: I think one of my favourite venues - in the
(19:17):
entire world, never mind Shanghai - has to be ALLon 襄阳北路 [Xiāngyáng Běilù]. I think what Gaz has
done there is absolutely astounding. The soundsystem is unparalleled. Whenever I get there,
it's the same story every time. I'm like “Do this.Put your bags and coats here. Let's get a drink.
Right, now come in here. Now we're going to doa dance”. And then I'm like a four-year-old,
(19:38):
I'm like “Listen, can you hear me talking? Youcan hear me talking, but you can feel the bass,
right? You can hear me talking, but you canfeel the bass?” It’s like, my friends laugh
at me because they're like “Roz, I know. We'vedone this before. You've literally showed me
this five times”. “I know, but I can't believehow good the sound is in here”. And what I love
is that any new music that's happening in there,people will say “Oh, but I don't think I like Trap
(19:58):
music. I don't like Footwork. I don't think I'minto industrial techno”. But they go in there,
they hear that, as soon as you're in frontof the DJ, you’re dancing straightaway,
because it’s always high quality programming.OF: Next question, what is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?RC: I think the best revelation
of how to purchase things has been the fabricmarket. And we have this thing in the company,
(20:23):
with all the performers, which is ‘Fabric MarketFinery’. And if you're having a house party,
or little dinner event for people, then youmight say “Wear your best fabric market finery”
as if the event itself was somehow black tie. So Iwent and got a dress made and it's bright orange,
and it's made of silk, and it's down to the floor,and it's a copy of a dress that Omagbitse gave me,
(20:46):
and it's like the size of a parachute, and it'simpossible to ride a bike in, and I love it.
OF (20:50):
Oh man, I would be so intimidated going out with you, with my jeans and T-shirt. Eugh.
RC (20:56):
I mean, we love a costume party. We feel like there should be at least one a month. The one that
actually happened for my leaving party, the themeof that one was ‘The best and worst of Taobao’.
And so everybody came in their Taobao unholy hotmess. And it was like ensembles that had been put
together, like a spray of neon and LED lightsand silver foil. It was absolutely despicable.
OF (21:22):
Let's move on. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
RC (21:26):
One of my absolute first stickers in Shanghai, let me just show you… here you are. ‘Orange
Dancing Boy’, or ‘Orange Boy’. I mean, he'sanother door opening in a way because then after
that, you have to collect every single one thatthis kid has been a part of. So there’s ‘Orange
Boy’, there’s also ‘Green Boy’, there's also‘Purple Boy’, they're all the same boy. He has
different outfits on. He's always dancing, dancingwith a joy that is unparalleled by anybody else's
(21:52):
dancing. It's completely unselfconscious. I liketo think that he doesn't know that he's a WeChat
sticker, like, and that there's not going to bethat problematic thing of putting your kids on the
internet, and then they grow up to resent you.Whenever we find a new one - because he's such
an amazing series - I instantly have to send thenew one that I found to my great and dear friend,
(22:14):
Orange Elephant. Because we have been so obsessedwith the portfolio of his works for so long,
that as soon as there’s one that we haven'tseen before, that’s it, it goes straight to her.
OF (22:24):
I love it. You've sent me all four of them. And do you know what, I'm gonna blow
your mind right now.RC: Uh-oh.
I actually have two extra stickers to send to you.
RC (22:34):
Oh my goodness gosh, of Orange Boy? OF
Oh! He’s still wearing the purple shirt! OF
here’s the second one.RC: That's impossible.
OF (22:48):
I haven't seen, actually, the orange and green ones. So you do win,
I'm not trying to one-up you here.RC: Right, no, I mean, it's not a
competition. It’s just the furtherance of moreamazing stickers. That's what we need in life.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? RC
(23:09):
I think about karaoke here. The American style- the Western style, let’s call it - is to,
like, take this microphone, get up, prance aboutlike everybody's looking at you, like you have
to do some sort of performance, like you have tomake it into some sort of big deal or something.
When actually you could just sit there, choose aload of songs, whoever's the best one at singing
it - or wants to sing it - can sing that song, sitback, do the song to a really high quality level,
(23:33):
as if you're playing a game, and then pass the micto the next person. If you get bored, you don’t
have to finish the song. And so, one of the thingsthat we have a tendency to do at KTV is just to
rush on in there, get everything on order, andthen choose all of the ones that we know. And then
somebody can just take it, like, if they want totake it. I think that time that I most ingratiated
(23:53):
a room was doing a duet with my mate, Ben, toBonnie Tyler's ‘Total Eclipse of the Heart’.
Oh, a classic. RC
I'm really happy to like, again, just let go ofthe experience and be, like, just pick any ones we
actually know the words to, and we'll all jump in.OF: And finally, what other China-related media
or sources of information do you rely on?RC: Yes, such a good question. I really love
(24:19):
Radii, you know those guys? It’s sort of givingyou like the full-circle perspective on loads
of Chinese culture. And so it's where I read ahuge amount about Chinese hip-hop in particular,
but loads of Chinese music, a lot of Chinesemetal acts as well. And where I hear about,
like, phenomena that are happeningon the internet, on Weibo, like,
(24:42):
what's going to be the next big thing, andwhat everybody's talking about, and everybody's
responses to this and that. Yeah, it's alwayswritten with a real style and wit and humour.
Well Roz, that was great, thank you so much for that. I feel like, even though you've
been here for a shorter time than me, you havecompletely cleaned the floor with your knowledge,
(25:04):
and how you've settled into life here inShanghai. Well, the last question that I ask
you - and I ask everyone on this show - is, outof all the people you know in China, who is the
one person you'd recommend that I interview next?RC: I think - being led by a question like that,
who's the person you should interview next - I'mgoing to think immediately of my friend Alan. I
don't know if you've met him before, but he usedto be a professional tennis player. My story with
(25:28):
him was that I was praying to the universefor some absolutely astounding accommodation
for a performer who was coming in who's gotexquisite taste. And I had been struggling,
you know, like putting Airbnbs and variousthings in front of him, saying “What about
this? What about this?” And then, lo andbehold, there was Alan, and his lovely wife,
(25:50):
with their beautiful apartment. And so, becauseof the spirit of cross pollination, and Shanghai
people always helping one another out, I thinkhe's gonna be my next Shanghailander of choice.
Great. Well, I look forward to meeting Alan. And thank you again so much Roz.
RC (26:08):
Such a pleasure., thank you so much for having me.
[Outro]OF: Ever since
I recorded this episode last year, I've beenthinking about ‘Shanghai Flow’. No-one stops,
no-one looks behind them, but everyonekeeps going. And so long as you're watchful
to the rules of the flow, you should have noreason for aggravation or injury. Right now,
(26:30):
I can't believe how much I missing it -even with the potential for aggravation
and injury - and when Roz said that she'll missthe street-life of Shanghai when she leaves,
I'm sure anyone in China listening to this rightnow was joining in the chorus “We miss it too!”
I've posted lots of photos online, pleasesearch for @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
and @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or add me onWeChat on my ID, mosaicofchina, and I'll add
(26:54):
you to the group there. There's Roz with herkeys, including the key to the McKinnon hotel,
which is the venue of Sleep No More; there are,of course, photos of inside the venue, where you
see the immersive theatre experience. And Iasked Roz if she could share any other photos
from some of the other immersive theatre piecesshe mentioned in our chat. She shared three;
one was of a treehouse show called ‘Air Hotel’that took place in a forest; one was a show
(27:19):
called ‘Walking’, which took place on a beachin Norfolk in the UK; and the final one was the
world's largest disco ball in a car park. Thereyou go. She mentioned also touring with Circa,
this is a contemporary circus troupe fromAustralia, and I posted a few photos from them
too. What else? There are photos from a couple ofthe articles that mentioned the phenomenon of the
(27:43):
women not yielding to men who are walking in ahurry in cities like New York. In one article,
this was given the name ‘Man-slamming”. Youch.There are photos of her favourite venue, ALL;
there is the phrase 天下没有不散的宴席 [tiānxià méiyǒubúsàn de yànxí], which translates to ‘all good
things must come to an end’. The best literaltranslation I could find is ‘there's no such
(28:05):
thing as a never-ending feast’. Oh, and Ialmost forgot, her favourite WeChat stickers.
I’ve posted all of her favourite dancing boystickers, and I've added the extra two from me,
just for good measure. Thank you, WeChat stickerBoy, you are helping to keep us all sane.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, artworkby Denny Newell, and extra support from Milo
(28:25):
de Prieto and Alston Gong. Next week isanother good one, I will see you then.
[Easter Egg]OF: I'm very glad that there's a Brit in my house today. RC: Really?
OF (28:44):
Because only a Brit would understand what I did this morning. RC
I had last night's curry for breakfast. RC
Would you do that? RC
is a really good breakfast food.OF: Thank you.
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