August 16, 2021 • 39 mins
We all know the old stories about fake goods in China. But the parallel worlds of intellectual property infringement and anti-counterfeit regulation have changed a great deal over the last decade. In today's episode, I talk with the lawyer Vittorio Franzese to reminisce about what it was like when this cat-and-mouse game was at it's peak. Who were the counterfeiters? What actions could the lawyers take against them? How did the high-profile police raids come about? And what part did the big e-commerce platforms play in all this? If that wasn't enough, to top it all off, not only do we talk about law courts, we also end up talking about tennis courts. Perfettissimo! The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Gigi Chang from Season 01 Episode 24. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-24-gigi-chang). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:02 - Part 1 20:53 - Part 2 29:04 - Outro 32:39 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-27-vittorio-franzese.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]VF: China’s
not a compromise. So you can geteverything fast, or… impossible.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We all know the old storiesabout fake goods in China.
(00:22):
But the parallel worlds of intellectual propertyinfringement and anti-counterfeit regulation have
changed a lot over the last decade. In today'sepisode, I talk with the lawyer Vittorio Franzese
to reminisce about what it was like whenthis cat-and-mouse game was at it's peak.
Who were the counterfeiters? What actionscould the lawyers take against them? How
(00:44):
did the high-profile police raids come about?And what part did the big e-commerce platforms
play in all of this? And why the hellam I asking myself so many questions?
If that wasn't enough, to top it all off,not only do we talk about law courts,
we also end up talking abouttennis courts. Perfettissimo!
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming.
(01:05):
I am here with VittorioFranzese, is that how you say it?
VF (01:08):
I'm amazed by your pronunciation, Oscar. OF
right? So I'll call you Vitto today.VF: Yeah, Vitto. Vitto is perfect. Thank
you - by the way, Oscar - a lot for inviting me.OF: My pleasure. And I should also mention,
if you do hear some background noise - this isto the listeners - it's because I've invited
Vitto to my house today, we had an issue with thestudio. So I hope the sound quality will be OK.
(01:32):
So Vitto, what is it that you do here in China?VF: So I'm here in China working as a lawyer. I
practice foreign law in an internationallaw firm with an Italian background.
I’ve been in China since… it's beenseven years already. I'm doing that.
OF (01:48):
And before we go any further, tell me what is the object that you have brought,
which in some way describes what you do?VF: OK, I brought two objects with me. I actually
couldn't choose. One is is actually some food.OF: OK, well let me have a look. Because
if it's food, I'm interested.VF: OK. I’ll take it. I hope it
won't make too much noise.OF: No that’s fine.
VF (02:09):
This is a typical snack from the south of Italy, and it's my real comfort food. It’s
something that people all around Italy make fun ofus - from my region - this kind of salty biscuits.
They're called ‘Taralli’.OF: Taralli,
OK. So wait a minute, let's do this now.
Alright. OF
(02:29):
Oh yeah. What's the herb in that?VF: It's actually fennel,
it’s just the seed of fennel.OF: It’s fennel, right. OK. I don't
normally like fennel, but that is lovely. OK.VF: My grandma and my mom were always always
putting it into all my suitcases. When Iwas leaving to go somewhere; when I was
going to university… It’s supposed to save yourlife, because you can maybe find yourself in a
(02:52):
place where you don't have any food that youlike to eat, and this will be something that
can replace a meal. One of thosecan replace half a dish of pasta.
OF (03:01):
It is pretty dense. It's not exactly a diet food.
VF (03:05):
It's not recommended in any diet. But especially when you're 8,000 kilometres far from
home, you feel better when you eat one of these.OF: And they’re called what again?
‘Taralli’ is the plural, one is ‘Tarallo’. OF
Yes. OF
from the south of Italy, in that case.VF: I am from Puglia, which is the
region in the extreme southeast ofItaly. The heel of Italy's boot.
OF (03:28):
Yes, I think all of us can picture that. That’s the funny thing about Italy, it has the
most easy to understand shape. Well, you saidthat you couldn't decide between two objects,
so what is your second object?VF: It's here, and it's a pen.
OK. VF
every lawyer should have a pen in his pocket.And this is what I carry with me all the time.
(03:49):
It was donated to me by my dad's law partner who…I come from a family of lawyers. So this guy that
I always considered my family, he kind of believedin my dad when my dad just graduated, and he hired
him in his firm. They became partners. And he wasthe first one that was really, really happy when
I decided to come to China. I made this choice, Ishould have taken over my dad's firm. When I made
(04:15):
this decision, it was kind of controversial for mymom, for my family, for some friends. But this guy
was always seeing it as a positive decision, assomething that would have changed my life. And,
I mean, I like to think that he was right.OF: It's interesting, because the pair of
those objects do encapsulate your identityto me. You know, I actually have known you
(04:37):
now for a couple of years, and when I think ofyou, I think of a lawyer and South Italian. So
maybe I have to keep both of those objectsin, although I'm breaking my own rules here.
But that's excellent. And I did not knowactually that your father was also a lawyer. So
it was always destined that you would be a lawyer.VF: It wasn’t. I tried, since I was little,
(04:58):
to create a distance from what my father wasdoing. He was working a lot, I was seeing him
working every day, waking up very early in themorning. It wasn't really the type of life that
I would see for my future. So I kind of triedmy own way, and I wanted to be a journalist.
But then since we don't have a serious journalismfaculty at university, they take law and then they
(05:20):
do some journalism courses and stuff. So "OK, wellwhatever, let's take law”. And then, of course, at
the end of the study I realised that was kind ofmy inclination. Kind of, I was defending my rights
in so many situations throughout my life, that Ithought “OK, I could do this for other people".
Let's move on then to your life in China. So how did that
(05:42):
start? Did you come straight away to Shanghai?VF: No, I didn't come straight to Shanghai. The
first place that I lived in China was Beijing.I was living there for my first three years in
China, I was working in an Americanfirm doing anti-counterfeiting law,
a funny thing to do in China.OF: Right, interesting. And anti-counterfeit was
a big subject 5-10 years ago especially, right?VF: Yes, absolutely. I arrived, and you see from
(06:09):
abroad - you never know what happens withinChina’s borders - how do the big brands
protect and enforce theirintellectual property rights. When
in China - ancient China - copying was considereda way to appreciate someone else's work.
You copy, and you let the author ofthe work know that you copied him.
(06:31):
For example? VF
paintings that were particularly liked by thepeople. And everyone was thinking of the best way
to copy it, the most faithful way to copy it.OF: Right, I see. Out of respect
for the original artist.VF: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes,
(06:52):
it's re-making exactly in the same way. Andit's something that should flatter the author.
Right, especially when it comes to calligraphy. You know,
there'd be a calligraphy master, and then hewould have his own particular style, and then
other people would emulate that style, right?VF: Yes, yes. And you try to reproduce it as many
times as necessary, to make it the perfect copy.OF: OK. Well that's a convenient excuse for
(07:17):
copying, isn't it? I mean, I guess that'sa nice story, but then what did you
encounter when you first came in into modernBeijing? Like, what was the situation?
VF (07:25):
I found a lot of brands struggling with no real clue of what to do,
of how to protect their products, theirgoods, the designs of their stuff that they
were introducing into the Chinese market. So,many of them were just throwing money at some
agents or investigators, who were supposed to helpthem find out what the sources of the goods were.
(07:51):
But without really a strategy. That's somethingthat I found - in my anti-counterfeiting team back
in Beijing - that my boss had a clear strategy ofseveral steps to follow, to get to the ‘big fish',
the one who was producing the goods.OF: And who are these ‘big fish’?
Who were the counterfeiters?VF: I can say that most of the time,
(08:12):
it was the factory itself that ended up beingdiscovered as the producer of the fake goods.
What was happening was that the directorof the factory would keep it open at night,
exactly the same reproduction of what wasproduced in the daylight. Those goods were going
into other stocks that were addressed to fakemarkets, to online stores on Taobao, before
(08:38):
the crackdown on counterfeit goods on Taobao.OF: Interesting. And then it doesn't really
fit into what you said before aboutcopying. Because it's not copying,
it's the exact same goods, right?VF: They found an easier way to
copy. Just “Let's make the same thing, because the
foreign company decided to produce here.”OF: I see. Right, so that would have been
(08:59):
an evolution. Because before, they would have seengoods come in from the West; they would have tried
to copy it with limitations in quality, plenty ofdefects; but as soon as they started to come here,
then they could really ramp up the copying.VF: They had a clear path to what was their
final aim, which was producing the sametype of products for a cheaper price.
And for the masses, let's say.OF: Yeah, there's something which is
(09:22):
actually worthy in that aim, because they weretrying to bring more of these goods to the masses.
So I can almost see the virtue of what they weretrying to do. But of course, they were doing it in
a way which your clients would not have been happyabout. So what were the steps that you would take?
Of course, we would start from the shop, the online shop. So would do sample purchases,
(09:44):
and we would start a real cooperation with theseller, first of all. It would take money, because
you would need to buy several of these goods toput you directly in contact with the manufacturer,
after a long process of knowing each other. Theseller had to trust you as a person genuinely
interested in big stocks of these products.OF: OK, so you take a consignment of these goods,
(10:11):
you understand that they arefake, what's the next step?
So - and here comes the funny part - you start a negotiation with some authority, the one that is
supposed to be the administrative authority.So the AIC - the Administration of Industry and
Commerce - this authority would decide if thatcase was important enough to be enforced. So
(10:32):
they would go there to the factory - everythingwould have been prepared by our team, by our
investigators - they would be only required to gothere and raid the factory. So make an immediate
comparison with the real goods, and decide thateverything should be seized, in that very moment.
OF (10:52):
OK. And then when you said that you had to convince and negotiate with the regulators,
what is it that they're looking for? So even ifyou had evidence, there'll be times when they
said “Naah, we're not going to make a raid.”VF: They needed to have an important case,
a case that would have made a difference. Theywere aiming at a numbers. What they wanted was
(11:14):
big cases that could have consequences forthe reputation of the authority of that
area. Now the situation in China changed a lot.But I cannot deny that it was difficult to imagine
that a public officer or a judge would make adecision that would be against the Chinese side,
(11:36):
because of the empathy that you can feel for aperson from your area against a foreign company.
China has been kind of closed to foreignersfor a long time. So it's easy to imagine that
this situation, plus low salaries forthe public officers, would translate into
(11:57):
more China-side oriented decisions.OF: I mean, as you're explaining,
I can totally see that. I mean, there's a judge ina situation where he is surrounded by people who
he lives with. And then this Italian firm comesalong and tries to say “No, you have to judge
against your townsfolk, and for this far-awaycompany”, which even if you're close to it,
(12:19):
that company is faceless. You know, you don'teven imagine the human beings behind that company.
So I can see why - at the beginning, at least- it would have been like that. But of course,
as you say, we're talking about now 7-8years ago, and I'm imagining that things
have changed in that short period of time.VF: Beijing and Shanghai were, since the
beginning, something like incorruptible.And this trend is being followed in the
(12:43):
past years by other cities. I believe they don'twant to discourage the business there, that can
come from abroad. So they are, more and more,issuing decisions that can be considered fair.
Right. And I'm also assuming that the law has itself become more professionalised
(13:04):
in these rural areas too, right? Because I'mguessing a lot of these judges in the past
would have just been party officialswho didn't have a background in law.
VF (13:11):
Yes, yes, education is doing a lot. And the pressure from the government is
also having it’s effect. There's a precisepolicy now that has been followed in the
past years. And it has been implementedby the local judges, local authorities,
and by the e-commerce platforms that before werepart of the problem. And they now are, more and
(13:31):
more, themselves the enforcers of these policies.OF: Right, you said e-commerce. And that's
interesting, because in my mind when I think aboutcounterfeit, I think about just the local market
with somebody who has put a few things on ablanket and tries to sell them. But what was the
interface between counterfeiting and e-commerce?VF: So 80% or 90% of fake goods were sold
(13:55):
on e-commerce platforms. So that wasrepresenting already a big big revenue,
of which the foreign brands were being deprived.But what happened is that the big platforms like
Alibaba - or like Tmall, JD, or YHD - they wererealising less and less trust from the brands
(14:16):
in general. Also from the Chinese big brands. Andthey decided to take a step, to start controlling
the goods themselves, starting to filter whatwas sold on those channels, on those pages.
OF (14:29):
In that case, how would they have made the distinction between
real goods and a counterfeit good? Especiallyin the case where, let's say, it's the factory
that produces the same goods overnight?VF: They were starting to ask more about
certificates. If the distributoris an authorised distributor;
if they have direct relationships with the brand;or what's the chain of sale? They were starting to
(14:56):
get to the source of these goods. So, where didyou purchase them? Why do they have that price?
Got it. So in that way, you can easily distinguish the true goods from the fake ones.
Does that mean then, that nowadaysyou can't find fake goods online?
VF (15:11):
Well the situation has absolutely improved in the past years. I don't want to say that
the problem is solved. There are still specificplatforms for specific products, say fake wines
still being sold all over the web. But comparedto 10 years ago, we are getting almost clean from
counterfeit goods. But I always always suggest tomy clients to register their trademark in China,
(15:38):
even when they are not present in China. Even whenthey have no intention to penetrate the Chinese
market. They still are taking a risk of becomingfamous enough that someone will try to steal
their trademark in China, to register in China.There’s a ‘First to File’ principle in China,
not ‘First to Use’. So no right is granted throughthe use of a trademark. So somebody in China can
(16:00):
register and can start producing legally.OF: Wow. Which I guess some companies have
found out to their surprise.VF: There are so many cases,
for example concerning the Chinese trademark, sothe Chinese transliterations of the trademark.
Hermès found out too late that 爱马仕 [Àimǎshì] -their Chinese transliteration - had already been
(16:22):
registered in China. It was the same for a NewBalance or for VIAGRA or for Jordan, they all
realised too late that the way Chinese recognisethem by their Chinese name… if somebody registers
that, then a lot of rights are not enforceableany more for foreign brands in China. But so many
(16:46):
fashion small manufacturers - that didn't plan ongetting so successful - found themselves copied,
and with a Chinese name they didn't know about.OF: Well, as fascinating as this is, I know that
I'm doing a disservice to you. Because actually,you don't do this any more. So you've moved from
Beijing to Shanghai and this is now a wholedifferent world to what you're doing today.
(17:08):
Yes, yes, I kind of switched. I still deal with intellectual properties. It’s
one of the areas of expertise I practice withmost pleasure, in China especially. But I
practice international transactions, cross-bordertransactions, commercial agreements. This is what
(17:30):
I do nowadays in Shanghai.OF: This is, in my mind,
more of the sort of typical cross-borderinternational commercial lawyer.
I went back to being a boring lawyer. OF
what projects do you have rumbling along now?VF: Well, I enjoy being a lawyer, I enjoy my
(17:52):
profession. But I also, you know, see myself aftera few years, getting out of those boundaries,
getting out of the profession itself. This is whatI'm actually already starting to try out with a
few friends. We got super addicted to a particularsport, a racquet sport, called Padel tennis.
OF (18:13):
Padel tennis? VF
in the 70s. And the name comes from the particularshape of the racket that looks like a pan.
And you play a kind of tennis, two againsttwo, but the court is a bit smaller and
is surrounded by glass panels. So you can usethe glass panels however you want in the game.
(18:34):
Which is like squash, I guess? VF
in the middle between squash and tennis. But it'smore fun, because you share the social aspect of
the team, of being in a team of two people. And ofrunning from one side of the court to the other in
complete harmony with the other player, with yourteammate. So you can get to never-ending points,
(18:58):
to incredible rallies and marathons. Andit's really really fun. We're created a
small community than now grew to 100 peoplewho are weekly playing this sport. And
all of them have gotten super super addicted toit, and they want to play more. We invented this
ranking system, I invite you to try it out.OF: OK, so where is this court? So
(19:23):
somebody built a court?VF: Yes, the court was
built already by a Swedish company. Theyjust wanted to try the Padel market in
China. So they found a space in 杨浦 [Yángpǔ]District. What I would like to do is also to
build our own courts with my partners - thatare also of course my friends, and the people
(19:43):
I play Padel usually with - we are actuallyat the moment very close to signing a deal. I
will tell you the details later when it happens,and it's going to be even more of an addiction.
Alright, I am going to look up Padel tennis. I've never heard of it. But this is partly what
I think Shanghai does to people. Because thepeople here are so commercial, everyone is
(20:04):
an entrepreneur. Even if you're a lawyer, youhave a side gig. I'm almost not surprised that
you have something like this in your back pocket.VF: Yeah, we all become kind of sales managers of
ourselves in some way. So the opportunity andthe chance is literally around the corner. I see
a city that is still growing a lot, economicallyspeaking. And there are still opportunities for
(20:26):
everyone. It’s potentially more capitalisticthan any other country I've been living in.
So yeah, why not give it a try?OF: Well, I'm looking at one of your objects
- this half-eaten breadstick - I'm thinking, ifI eat too many of these, I'll definitely need
to do more Padel tennis. So maybe I will beyour first customer. Thank you so much Vitto.
VF (20:50):
Thank you, Oscar, thanks again. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK, the 10 questions. Are you ready?
I am very ready. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?VF: So I was in a compound in Beijing. And
I realised that in that compound, there must havebeen more people than in my hometown, related to
(21:14):
the amount of people that can be in a compound ora district of a big city like Beijing or Shanghai.
My hometown is called Trani, it’son the east coast of Puglia. So it's
very nice old town with a cathedral onthe sea, but no more than 50,000 people.
So it was kind of hard for me to imagine theamount of people that I would have faced here.
OF (21:38):
50,000. And what was the compound you lived in, in Beijing? It was
obviously a big high-rise building.VF: It was a compound with probably
8-10 buildings, of 42 floors each.OF: I mean, going back to Trani then,
that would have been a place where you would knoweveryone in that town. And they would know you,
and they would know your business.VF: We all know each other, yes. And
(22:02):
they would know not only your business, theywould know what you've done the night before,
because they’d probably seen you.OF:
There is some comfort in the anonymityof living in big cities, right?
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?VF: Relating to my personal experience, I would
say 中国梦 [zhōngguó mèng], the Chinese dream.OF: Right, 中国梦 [zhōngguó mèng], yes,
(22:25):
the Chinese dream.VF: As I was saying,
this is a country that I found out can be acountry of opportunities, where you can grow
your dream. And that’s exactly what happened inmy first four years here. I realised that I was
growing very fast. And I was already where Iimagined I would have been in 10 or 12 years.
(22:45):
Yeah, you're right. It is funny how somehow when you step into China,
you basically are on this fast track to somethingcompletely new. OK, next question. What is your
favourite destination within China?VF: I was stunned by 云南 [Yúnnán]’s
mountains. I found places where you can accessonly with a Jeep that is driven by a local guy,
(23:10):
that can bring you up in the mountain. And thatwas pretty amazing. You arrive to a small village,
and it's just a little mountain village as you’veimagined in your dreams. I felt for the first time
that travelling in China wasn't somethingtoo mainstream. I felt like you still can
get to isolated places, up on a mountain.OF: Amazing. OK, well, I've been to 云南 [Yúnnán],
(23:33):
it was always my dream. But now you're makingme think that I have to go back immediately.
If you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least?VF: It's something that I have always thought
about China. By living here, you realise how easylife is. Sometimes you have a problem, and it gets
(23:54):
solved just by knowing someone that has dealt withit before. Suddenly, it's not any more a problem.
I feel like I do a lot of things in one day, whichI wouldn't be able to do back home where life is
so chill, and you need to take your timefor every single thing you want to complete.
(24:16):
On the other side, something that could look superstraightforward and super easy to get would become
impossible just for reasons that are unknownto you. Because you have to pass through some
authorisation or procedure that suddenly becomesslow and you cannot explain why. And you just find
(24:40):
yourself in front of a problem that you didn'texpect to encounter. China’s not a compromise.
So you can get everything fast, or… impossible.OF: Well said. Is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?VF: Absolutely, yes. I still get surprised
every day. I was cycling to work in Beijing,and on this big big road I saw a huge Porsche.
(25:06):
They were pulling over and the mom was gettingoff with the kid, that was just peeing over
the street like no-one was seeing them. Thesepeople are super wealthy, they're still being…
Just ‘practical’. VF
I might drive a huge Porsche, but I'm gonna help my kid piss out of the door. What about your
(25:26):
favourite place to eat, to drink or to hang out?VF: OK. In Shanghai I have a few places. I can
mention Porto Matto for comfort food, anItalian restaurant from the south of Italy
on 常熟路 [Chángshú Lù]. It’s a place whereI go when I really want to feel like home,
and I manage to do that. It's the food I’vegrown up with. And then I can also mention
(25:49):
Casa Mia for the quality of food. And I haveto say that I do really love W Hotel for their
Sunday brunch. I do like that vibe.OF: Nice. What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?VF: I have to say I'm really really
attached to the first bicycle I bought inBeijing. It's a proper 胡同 [Hútòng] bike
(26:12):
with huge wheels. I bought it on SmartBeijingfrom someone who was leaving Beijing after maybe
20 years. It was kind of a rare example of a 胡同[Hútòng] bike that people could use back in the
70s or the 80s. So I really kept it with care.And I was moving around the streets of Beijing
thanks to this transportation, that I gave to mybest friend once I left Beijing. It’s still there,
(26:37):
I still use it when I go there for business trips.OF: OK. Well I need to have a photo of that.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?VF: OK, so this is a 100块 [Kuài] note.
Someone folded it (26:50):
down, it looks like 毛 [Máo] is super sad. But then suddenly,
you change the perspective, and you seeMao assuming a happy face, and then also
a mean face at the very end.OF: Nice. Next question,
what's your go-to song to sing at KTV?VF: I think that I have to talk about
(27:12):
my favourite Chinese song that I like to singat KTV. It's called 我们不一样 [Wǒmen bù Yīyàng].
It's a very popular song from 大壮[Dàzhuàng]. I don't know the author well,
except for this song. But I really like to singit, especially when there's the refrain part.
He reaches some high tones, Ilove to try to get them well,
(27:35):
although it doesn't really happen often.OF: Yeah, but if you're drunk,
you don't care, right?VF: The other people care,
though. They still notice it.OF: OK, I'm going to steal that one.
And finally, what other China-related mediaor sources of information do you rely on?
VF (27:51):
So I know what's happening, because I read maybe the first page of a Chinese newspaper,
and I analyse the point of view of theChinese press. I watch CGTN sometimes. I
read CHINAWIRE and China Insights.OF: Very good. Well, thank you
Vitto. That was a real pleasure, I enjoyedgetting to know more about your background,
(28:13):
things that I didn't actually know myself.VF: Thank you so much for the great chance.
OF (28:17):
And before you go, out of everyone you know in China, who do you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?VF: Terika Corteel. She knows this country as
no-one else, I would say. She has a very veryparticular point of view on what happens here,
also related to her Tahitian island background.So it will be really interesting for you to hear
(28:43):
her point of view.OF: Well, thank you. I'm
glad that you said it was Terika. Becauseactually, I know you through Terika. And
yeah, she is from Tahiti - and I think that alone
makes her interesting enough to talk about - butyeah, her experiences in China should make for a
great episode. Thank you so much, Vitto.VF: Thank you again, Oscar, thanks.
[Outro]OF:
(29:06):
So Vitto has indeed opened a Padel tennis courtin central Shanghai, and it now has over 300
members. And if that wasn't enough, it happensto be the highest Padel court in the world.
It's called SinoPadel and it's at the ShanghaiInternational Fashion Education Centre - or
SIFEC - on 长寿路 [Chángshòu Lù]. I've posted a veryshort video of it online, so please check it out
(29:30):
at all the usual places. And apart from that, youcan also see other fun stuff such as Vitto eating
a bag full of tarrali; he and his colleaguesitting on some seized counterfeit toy cars;
he and friends posing like Da Vinci's'The Last Supper' at one of the favourite
restaurants he mentioned; him lookingvery relaxed in his hometown of Trani;
(29:52):
and my personal favourite, he and his bestpurchase in China, the 胡同 [Hútòng] bike.
As always, I'm going to remind youof the PREMIUM version of the show,
where you can hear the full version of myconversation with Vitto. You can now subscribe
with the click of a button on Apple Podcasts,just search for Mosaic of China PREMIUM there,
(30:12):
or head to Patreon or 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]. Here aresome clips of what you can hear there today.
[Clip 1]OF: Like, this
is not what I picture a legal team to be doing.VF: Indeed, there was not much purely legal in
this type of procedure.[Clip 2]
VF (30:25):
And these people, they would be kind of… OF
Yes. [Clip 3]
This is a kind of task that needs a lot of cold blood. So it’s not always easy to arrive
at that moment.[Clip 4]
You make the law, you find the trick. OF
step ahead, right?[End of Audio Clips]
(30:45):
And also, there were some really nice connectionswith previous guests from the podcast. Just by
chance, one of these was in the catch-up with theInstagram influencer Michael Zee at the end of
last week's episode with Crystyl Mo. While Vittocame to China from Italy, Michael has just moved
to Italy from China, and he was predicting someof the same things that Vitto mentioned about the
(31:07):
different pace of life. The biggest overlap waswith Vladimir Djurovic from Episode 13 of Season
02. While Vitto talked about the legal processof registering trademarks in China, Vladimir
talked about the creative process of coming upwith these Chinese names in the first place.
But perhaps the nicest connection came from thefact that Vitto and I recorded this episode in
(31:31):
my house, because at one point maybe you heardthe ringing of a bell just outside the window.
This was the sound of a tricyclepeddler collecting recycled goods
from the lane outside my apartment. And it wasexactly this sound that was picked by Stéphane
Wilmet - the Chief Consumer Officer ofL’Oréal in China from all the way back
(31:51):
in Episode 01 of Season 02 - as the thinghe would miss the most if he left China.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a catch-up with the literarytranslator Gigi Chang, from Season 01 Episode 24.
Heads up, there was a bug in the softwarewe used to record it, but luckily it only
(32:13):
affected the recording a few times, and it onlyseemed to affect my side of the conversation.
[Catch-Up Interview]GC:
Hello!OF: Hey!
GC (32:32):
Hello Oscar, how are you? OF
now that it's been so long. And I say that becauseactually you left Shanghai quite soon after we did
our recording. Where am I talking to you from now?GC: Yeah, I'm now in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]. So I think
we must have recorded about two years ago.OF: Yes, it was. And how is 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]?
(32:55):
It's great. It's busy and happening. And because it's much warmer here,
a lot of the restaurants have outdoor seating.OF: Right.
So it always feels sort of buzzing. OF
guess would be more or less the same whereveryou are. It's just you and your clipboard.
Yes. And my computer, my desk, my whole setup. And it doesn't really change, you know.
(33:22):
I work from home anyway. And I didn'thave that much social interaction before.
OF (33:27):
Well, last time we talked, we were talking about your work translating, of course, ‘The
Legend of the Condor Heroes’ by 金庸 [Jīn Yōng].GC: When we talked, I think the second volume
of the novel - which was the first book that Itranslated for the series - had just come out.
I was starting to co-translate Volume 3 withthe translator of Volume 1, Anna Holmwood.
(33:54):
And then since then, I have finished translatingthe rest of the novel - which is Volume 4 - with
Shelly Bryant, who used to live in Shanghai,but right now I think she is in Singapore.
OK, so now you have co-translated three out of the four volumes…
GC (34:12):
Yes. OF
Yes. Yes, indeed, yes. OF
of Kung Fu for 2-3 years. So what does it mean?GC: Ah, six years.
OF (34:23):
Six already? How does it feel now to be done with the whole book? Like,
does it feel like a relief? Or do you miss it?GC: It's really exciting. I won't say I miss it,
because I've already started the next one.OF: Oh, so it’s not finished? Oh god.
GC (34:36):
No, no, no, it's a trilogy. So we've only finished the first novel
of the trilogy. The first novel is fourvolumes, and I'm now starting the next novel,
which is also another four volumes.OF: My god, this is going to be
your entire life’s work.GC: Yes. It's going to
(34:57):
be the next few years at least, hopefully,OF: Did you ever imagine you'll be spending
six years already - and then a furthergod knows how many - doing this one book?
No, I hadn’t sort of thought of it or planned it to happen this way, it just sort
of snowballed by itself. It’s… As a freelancer,it’s very very nice to know that you have work
(35:19):
lined up. At the same time it’s also verystressful to know that you've got work lined up,
because it means you may have to say no to alot of other opportunities when they arise.
OF (35:32):
You’ve already committed yourself. GC
comes like buses. They either come in batches, orthey don't. I guess it's nice to be able to really
immerse into these worlds. Because I read themin my early teens, and watched the TV dramas back
then, and it’s really nice to rediscover them.OF: Yeah, that is nice. And you've done other
(35:55):
podcasts since doing mine, I feel like I'velaunched your career as a podcast guest.
GC (36:00):
Yes, ‘Culture Potato’, ‘文化土豆 [Wénhuà Tǔdòu]’. OF
Sammi Liu is working on, right?GC: Her husband 一帆 [Yīfān]. And
they’ve actually got a bookshop now in London.OF: Well, this is actually it. Because
after you referred Sammi, she and her husbandmoved to London. And of course, I think the plan
(36:21):
was to have a lifestyle that was going to be halfLondon, half Beijing. But it turned out to be 100%
London.GC: London, yes.
OF (36:29):
Yeah. So actually, that's the reason why in the end, even though she was a great referral,
we couldn't really include her in thesecond season of Mosaic of China, sadly.
GC (36:39):
Yeah, wait actually they come back. OF
future season. But yeah, I'm sorry about that.But I did find a good replacement, so I will
put out your update chat - that we're doing now -alongside the person who I found as a replacement.
OK, OK, great. Great, yeah. OF
(37:01):
you left, and that I saw on a post that you did.It was about one of your pets which you counted
as your ‘best purchase that you made in China’.GC: Dora. Yes, she passed away last year. She
had a lot of health issues, she had no teeth, shecould barely see, she couldn’t hear very well. And
(37:23):
so in the end, she just got old and passed away.But she didn't suffer too much, so it was OK.
OF (37:29):
Yeah, and I was really sad when I saw you and your husband post about that. But
at the same time, it was so amazing to seewhat life you gave her. You know, the extra
two years that she was able to spend with you.Because you know, she was already given up for
dead when you adopted her in the first place.GC: Yes. Yes, yes. So it was a blessing,
and it was really nice to have her.We’ve still got one dog and one cat,
(37:52):
so it’s not like the household is empty.OF: Yes. And are there any plans to replenish
the menagerie with some local 深圳 [Shēnzhèn] pets?GC: Probably not for the time being, no.
Until you see another photo online, and then you're forced to.
GC (38:08):
Yes, yes, yes. OF
Yep. OF
so much, Gigi. It was great to have you on theoriginal show. And great to see you again now.
Yeah. OF
my heart for people like you who work with words.I just love the stuff that you do, when you are
swimming around those two cultures and trying tofind the little bridges that link the two. I just
(38:31):
love that stuff. Thank you so much, Gigi.GC: Yeah. OK, thank you.
[Trailer]VF: China’s
not a compromise. So you can geteverything fast, or… impossible.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We all know the old storiesabout fake goods in China.
(00:22):
But the parallel worlds of intellectual propertyinfringement and anti-counterfeit regulation have
changed a lot over the last decade. In today'sepisode, I talk with the lawyer Vittorio Franzese
to reminisce about what it was like whenthis cat-and-mouse game was at it's peak.
Who were the counterfeiters? What actionscould the lawyers take against them? How
(00:44):
did the high-profile police raids come about?And what part did the big e-commerce platforms
play in all of this? And why the hellam I asking myself so many questions?
If that wasn't enough, to top it all off,not only do we talk about law courts,
we also end up talking abouttennis courts. Perfettissimo!
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming.
(01:05):
I am here with VittorioFranzese, is that how you say it?
VF (01:08):
I'm amazed by your pronunciation, Oscar. OF
right? So I'll call you Vitto today.VF: Yeah, Vitto. Vitto is perfect. Thank
you - by the way, Oscar - a lot for inviting me.OF: My pleasure. And I should also mention,
if you do hear some background noise - this isto the listeners - it's because I've invited
Vitto to my house today, we had an issue with thestudio. So I hope the sound quality will be OK.
(01:32):
So Vitto, what is it that you do here in China?VF: So I'm here in China working as a lawyer. I
practice foreign law in an internationallaw firm with an Italian background.
I’ve been in China since… it's beenseven years already. I'm doing that.
OF (01:48):
And before we go any further, tell me what is the object that you have brought,
which in some way describes what you do?VF: OK, I brought two objects with me. I actually
couldn't choose. One is is actually some food.OF: OK, well let me have a look. Because
if it's food, I'm interested.VF: OK. I’ll take it. I hope it
won't make too much noise.OF: No that’s fine.
VF (02:09):
This is a typical snack from the south of Italy, and it's my real comfort food. It’s
something that people all around Italy make fun ofus - from my region - this kind of salty biscuits.
They're called ‘Taralli’.OF: Taralli,
OK. So wait a minute, let's do this now.
Alright. OF
(02:29):
Oh yeah. What's the herb in that?VF: It's actually fennel,
it’s just the seed of fennel.OF: It’s fennel, right. OK. I don't
normally like fennel, but that is lovely. OK.VF: My grandma and my mom were always always
putting it into all my suitcases. When Iwas leaving to go somewhere; when I was
going to university… It’s supposed to save yourlife, because you can maybe find yourself in a
(02:52):
place where you don't have any food that youlike to eat, and this will be something that
can replace a meal. One of thosecan replace half a dish of pasta.
OF (03:01):
It is pretty dense. It's not exactly a diet food.
VF (03:05):
It's not recommended in any diet. But especially when you're 8,000 kilometres far from
home, you feel better when you eat one of these.OF: And they’re called what again?
‘Taralli’ is the plural, one is ‘Tarallo’. OF
Yes. OF
from the south of Italy, in that case.VF: I am from Puglia, which is the
region in the extreme southeast ofItaly. The heel of Italy's boot.
OF (03:28):
Yes, I think all of us can picture that. That’s the funny thing about Italy, it has the
most easy to understand shape. Well, you saidthat you couldn't decide between two objects,
so what is your second object?VF: It's here, and it's a pen.
OK. VF
every lawyer should have a pen in his pocket.And this is what I carry with me all the time.
(03:49):
It was donated to me by my dad's law partner who…I come from a family of lawyers. So this guy that
I always considered my family, he kind of believedin my dad when my dad just graduated, and he hired
him in his firm. They became partners. And he wasthe first one that was really, really happy when
I decided to come to China. I made this choice, Ishould have taken over my dad's firm. When I made
(04:15):
this decision, it was kind of controversial for mymom, for my family, for some friends. But this guy
was always seeing it as a positive decision, assomething that would have changed my life. And,
I mean, I like to think that he was right.OF: It's interesting, because the pair of
those objects do encapsulate your identityto me. You know, I actually have known you
(04:37):
now for a couple of years, and when I think ofyou, I think of a lawyer and South Italian. So
maybe I have to keep both of those objectsin, although I'm breaking my own rules here.
But that's excellent. And I did not knowactually that your father was also a lawyer. So
it was always destined that you would be a lawyer.VF: It wasn’t. I tried, since I was little,
(04:58):
to create a distance from what my father wasdoing. He was working a lot, I was seeing him
working every day, waking up very early in themorning. It wasn't really the type of life that
I would see for my future. So I kind of triedmy own way, and I wanted to be a journalist.
But then since we don't have a serious journalismfaculty at university, they take law and then they
(05:20):
do some journalism courses and stuff. So "OK, wellwhatever, let's take law”. And then, of course, at
the end of the study I realised that was kind ofmy inclination. Kind of, I was defending my rights
in so many situations throughout my life, that Ithought “OK, I could do this for other people".
Let's move on then to your life in China. So how did that
(05:42):
start? Did you come straight away to Shanghai?VF: No, I didn't come straight to Shanghai. The
first place that I lived in China was Beijing.I was living there for my first three years in
China, I was working in an Americanfirm doing anti-counterfeiting law,
a funny thing to do in China.OF: Right, interesting. And anti-counterfeit was
a big subject 5-10 years ago especially, right?VF: Yes, absolutely. I arrived, and you see from
(06:09):
abroad - you never know what happens withinChina’s borders - how do the big brands
protect and enforce theirintellectual property rights. When
in China - ancient China - copying was considereda way to appreciate someone else's work.
You copy, and you let the author ofthe work know that you copied him.
(06:31):
For example? VF
paintings that were particularly liked by thepeople. And everyone was thinking of the best way
to copy it, the most faithful way to copy it.OF: Right, I see. Out of respect
for the original artist.VF: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes,
(06:52):
it's re-making exactly in the same way. Andit's something that should flatter the author.
Right, especially when it comes to calligraphy. You know,
there'd be a calligraphy master, and then hewould have his own particular style, and then
other people would emulate that style, right?VF: Yes, yes. And you try to reproduce it as many
times as necessary, to make it the perfect copy.OF: OK. Well that's a convenient excuse for
(07:17):
copying, isn't it? I mean, I guess that'sa nice story, but then what did you
encounter when you first came in into modernBeijing? Like, what was the situation?
VF (07:25):
I found a lot of brands struggling with no real clue of what to do,
of how to protect their products, theirgoods, the designs of their stuff that they
were introducing into the Chinese market. So,many of them were just throwing money at some
agents or investigators, who were supposed to helpthem find out what the sources of the goods were.
(07:51):
But without really a strategy. That's somethingthat I found - in my anti-counterfeiting team back
in Beijing - that my boss had a clear strategy ofseveral steps to follow, to get to the ‘big fish',
the one who was producing the goods.OF: And who are these ‘big fish’?
Who were the counterfeiters?VF: I can say that most of the time,
(08:12):
it was the factory itself that ended up beingdiscovered as the producer of the fake goods.
What was happening was that the directorof the factory would keep it open at night,
exactly the same reproduction of what wasproduced in the daylight. Those goods were going
into other stocks that were addressed to fakemarkets, to online stores on Taobao, before
(08:38):
the crackdown on counterfeit goods on Taobao.OF: Interesting. And then it doesn't really
fit into what you said before aboutcopying. Because it's not copying,
it's the exact same goods, right?VF: They found an easier way to
copy. Just “Let's make the same thing, because the
foreign company decided to produce here.”OF: I see. Right, so that would have been
(08:59):
an evolution. Because before, they would have seengoods come in from the West; they would have tried
to copy it with limitations in quality, plenty ofdefects; but as soon as they started to come here,
then they could really ramp up the copying.VF: They had a clear path to what was their
final aim, which was producing the sametype of products for a cheaper price.
And for the masses, let's say.OF: Yeah, there's something which is
(09:22):
actually worthy in that aim, because they weretrying to bring more of these goods to the masses.
So I can almost see the virtue of what they weretrying to do. But of course, they were doing it in
a way which your clients would not have been happyabout. So what were the steps that you would take?
Of course, we would start from the shop, the online shop. So would do sample purchases,
(09:44):
and we would start a real cooperation with theseller, first of all. It would take money, because
you would need to buy several of these goods toput you directly in contact with the manufacturer,
after a long process of knowing each other. Theseller had to trust you as a person genuinely
interested in big stocks of these products.OF: OK, so you take a consignment of these goods,
(10:11):
you understand that they arefake, what's the next step?
So - and here comes the funny part - you start a negotiation with some authority, the one that is
supposed to be the administrative authority.So the AIC - the Administration of Industry and
Commerce - this authority would decide if thatcase was important enough to be enforced. So
(10:32):
they would go there to the factory - everythingwould have been prepared by our team, by our
investigators - they would be only required to gothere and raid the factory. So make an immediate
comparison with the real goods, and decide thateverything should be seized, in that very moment.
OF (10:52):
OK. And then when you said that you had to convince and negotiate with the regulators,
what is it that they're looking for? So even ifyou had evidence, there'll be times when they
said “Naah, we're not going to make a raid.”VF: They needed to have an important case,
a case that would have made a difference. Theywere aiming at a numbers. What they wanted was
(11:14):
big cases that could have consequences forthe reputation of the authority of that
area. Now the situation in China changed a lot.But I cannot deny that it was difficult to imagine
that a public officer or a judge would make adecision that would be against the Chinese side,
(11:36):
because of the empathy that you can feel for aperson from your area against a foreign company.
China has been kind of closed to foreignersfor a long time. So it's easy to imagine that
this situation, plus low salaries forthe public officers, would translate into
(11:57):
more China-side oriented decisions.OF: I mean, as you're explaining,
I can totally see that. I mean, there's a judge ina situation where he is surrounded by people who
he lives with. And then this Italian firm comesalong and tries to say “No, you have to judge
against your townsfolk, and for this far-awaycompany”, which even if you're close to it,
(12:19):
that company is faceless. You know, you don'teven imagine the human beings behind that company.
So I can see why - at the beginning, at least- it would have been like that. But of course,
as you say, we're talking about now 7-8years ago, and I'm imagining that things
have changed in that short period of time.VF: Beijing and Shanghai were, since the
beginning, something like incorruptible.And this trend is being followed in the
(12:43):
past years by other cities. I believe they don'twant to discourage the business there, that can
come from abroad. So they are, more and more,issuing decisions that can be considered fair.
Right. And I'm also assuming that the law has itself become more professionalised
(13:04):
in these rural areas too, right? Because I'mguessing a lot of these judges in the past
would have just been party officialswho didn't have a background in law.
VF (13:11):
Yes, yes, education is doing a lot. And the pressure from the government is
also having it’s effect. There's a precisepolicy now that has been followed in the
past years. And it has been implementedby the local judges, local authorities,
and by the e-commerce platforms that before werepart of the problem. And they now are, more and
(13:31):
more, themselves the enforcers of these policies.OF: Right, you said e-commerce. And that's
interesting, because in my mind when I think aboutcounterfeit, I think about just the local market
with somebody who has put a few things on ablanket and tries to sell them. But what was the
interface between counterfeiting and e-commerce?VF: So 80% or 90% of fake goods were sold
(13:55):
on e-commerce platforms. So that wasrepresenting already a big big revenue,
of which the foreign brands were being deprived.But what happened is that the big platforms like
Alibaba - or like Tmall, JD, or YHD - they wererealising less and less trust from the brands
(14:16):
in general. Also from the Chinese big brands. Andthey decided to take a step, to start controlling
the goods themselves, starting to filter whatwas sold on those channels, on those pages.
OF (14:29):
In that case, how would they have made the distinction between
real goods and a counterfeit good? Especiallyin the case where, let's say, it's the factory
that produces the same goods overnight?VF: They were starting to ask more about
certificates. If the distributoris an authorised distributor;
if they have direct relationships with the brand;or what's the chain of sale? They were starting to
(14:56):
get to the source of these goods. So, where didyou purchase them? Why do they have that price?
Got it. So in that way, you can easily distinguish the true goods from the fake ones.
Does that mean then, that nowadaysyou can't find fake goods online?
VF (15:11):
Well the situation has absolutely improved in the past years. I don't want to say that
the problem is solved. There are still specificplatforms for specific products, say fake wines
still being sold all over the web. But comparedto 10 years ago, we are getting almost clean from
counterfeit goods. But I always always suggest tomy clients to register their trademark in China,
(15:38):
even when they are not present in China. Even whenthey have no intention to penetrate the Chinese
market. They still are taking a risk of becomingfamous enough that someone will try to steal
their trademark in China, to register in China.There’s a ‘First to File’ principle in China,
not ‘First to Use’. So no right is granted throughthe use of a trademark. So somebody in China can
(16:00):
register and can start producing legally.OF: Wow. Which I guess some companies have
found out to their surprise.VF: There are so many cases,
for example concerning the Chinese trademark, sothe Chinese transliterations of the trademark.
Hermès found out too late that 爱马仕 [Àimǎshì] -their Chinese transliteration - had already been
(16:22):
registered in China. It was the same for a NewBalance or for VIAGRA or for Jordan, they all
realised too late that the way Chinese recognisethem by their Chinese name… if somebody registers
that, then a lot of rights are not enforceableany more for foreign brands in China. But so many
(16:46):
fashion small manufacturers - that didn't plan ongetting so successful - found themselves copied,
and with a Chinese name they didn't know about.OF: Well, as fascinating as this is, I know that
I'm doing a disservice to you. Because actually,you don't do this any more. So you've moved from
Beijing to Shanghai and this is now a wholedifferent world to what you're doing today.
(17:08):
Yes, yes, I kind of switched. I still deal with intellectual properties. It’s
one of the areas of expertise I practice withmost pleasure, in China especially. But I
practice international transactions, cross-bordertransactions, commercial agreements. This is what
(17:30):
I do nowadays in Shanghai.OF: This is, in my mind,
more of the sort of typical cross-borderinternational commercial lawyer.
I went back to being a boring lawyer. OF
what projects do you have rumbling along now?VF: Well, I enjoy being a lawyer, I enjoy my
(17:52):
profession. But I also, you know, see myself aftera few years, getting out of those boundaries,
getting out of the profession itself. This is whatI'm actually already starting to try out with a
few friends. We got super addicted to a particularsport, a racquet sport, called Padel tennis.
OF (18:13):
Padel tennis? VF
in the 70s. And the name comes from the particularshape of the racket that looks like a pan.
And you play a kind of tennis, two againsttwo, but the court is a bit smaller and
is surrounded by glass panels. So you can usethe glass panels however you want in the game.
(18:34):
Which is like squash, I guess? VF
in the middle between squash and tennis. But it'smore fun, because you share the social aspect of
the team, of being in a team of two people. And ofrunning from one side of the court to the other in
complete harmony with the other player, with yourteammate. So you can get to never-ending points,
(18:58):
to incredible rallies and marathons. Andit's really really fun. We're created a
small community than now grew to 100 peoplewho are weekly playing this sport. And
all of them have gotten super super addicted toit, and they want to play more. We invented this
ranking system, I invite you to try it out.OF: OK, so where is this court? So
(19:23):
somebody built a court?VF: Yes, the court was
built already by a Swedish company. Theyjust wanted to try the Padel market in
China. So they found a space in 杨浦 [Yángpǔ]District. What I would like to do is also to
build our own courts with my partners - thatare also of course my friends, and the people
(19:43):
I play Padel usually with - we are actuallyat the moment very close to signing a deal. I
will tell you the details later when it happens,and it's going to be even more of an addiction.
Alright, I am going to look up Padel tennis. I've never heard of it. But this is partly what
I think Shanghai does to people. Because thepeople here are so commercial, everyone is
(20:04):
an entrepreneur. Even if you're a lawyer, youhave a side gig. I'm almost not surprised that
you have something like this in your back pocket.VF: Yeah, we all become kind of sales managers of
ourselves in some way. So the opportunity andthe chance is literally around the corner. I see
a city that is still growing a lot, economicallyspeaking. And there are still opportunities for
(20:26):
everyone. It’s potentially more capitalisticthan any other country I've been living in.
So yeah, why not give it a try?OF: Well, I'm looking at one of your objects
- this half-eaten breadstick - I'm thinking, ifI eat too many of these, I'll definitely need
to do more Padel tennis. So maybe I will beyour first customer. Thank you so much Vitto.
VF (20:50):
Thank you, Oscar, thanks again. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK, the 10 questions. Are you ready?
I am very ready. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?VF: So I was in a compound in Beijing. And
I realised that in that compound, there must havebeen more people than in my hometown, related to
(21:14):
the amount of people that can be in a compound ora district of a big city like Beijing or Shanghai.
My hometown is called Trani, it’son the east coast of Puglia. So it's
very nice old town with a cathedral onthe sea, but no more than 50,000 people.
So it was kind of hard for me to imagine theamount of people that I would have faced here.
OF (21:38):
50,000. And what was the compound you lived in, in Beijing? It was
obviously a big high-rise building.VF: It was a compound with probably
8-10 buildings, of 42 floors each.OF: I mean, going back to Trani then,
that would have been a place where you would knoweveryone in that town. And they would know you,
and they would know your business.VF: We all know each other, yes. And
(22:02):
they would know not only your business, theywould know what you've done the night before,
because they’d probably seen you.OF:
There is some comfort in the anonymityof living in big cities, right?
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?VF: Relating to my personal experience, I would
say 中国梦 [zhōngguó mèng], the Chinese dream.OF: Right, 中国梦 [zhōngguó mèng], yes,
(22:25):
the Chinese dream.VF: As I was saying,
this is a country that I found out can be acountry of opportunities, where you can grow
your dream. And that’s exactly what happened inmy first four years here. I realised that I was
growing very fast. And I was already where Iimagined I would have been in 10 or 12 years.
(22:45):
Yeah, you're right. It is funny how somehow when you step into China,
you basically are on this fast track to somethingcompletely new. OK, next question. What is your
favourite destination within China?VF: I was stunned by 云南 [Yúnnán]’s
mountains. I found places where you can accessonly with a Jeep that is driven by a local guy,
(23:10):
that can bring you up in the mountain. And thatwas pretty amazing. You arrive to a small village,
and it's just a little mountain village as you’veimagined in your dreams. I felt for the first time
that travelling in China wasn't somethingtoo mainstream. I felt like you still can
get to isolated places, up on a mountain.OF: Amazing. OK, well, I've been to 云南 [Yúnnán],
(23:33):
it was always my dream. But now you're makingme think that I have to go back immediately.
If you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least?VF: It's something that I have always thought
about China. By living here, you realise how easylife is. Sometimes you have a problem, and it gets
(23:54):
solved just by knowing someone that has dealt withit before. Suddenly, it's not any more a problem.
I feel like I do a lot of things in one day, whichI wouldn't be able to do back home where life is
so chill, and you need to take your timefor every single thing you want to complete.
(24:16):
On the other side, something that could look superstraightforward and super easy to get would become
impossible just for reasons that are unknownto you. Because you have to pass through some
authorisation or procedure that suddenly becomesslow and you cannot explain why. And you just find
(24:40):
yourself in front of a problem that you didn'texpect to encounter. China’s not a compromise.
So you can get everything fast, or… impossible.OF: Well said. Is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?VF: Absolutely, yes. I still get surprised
every day. I was cycling to work in Beijing,and on this big big road I saw a huge Porsche.
(25:06):
They were pulling over and the mom was gettingoff with the kid, that was just peeing over
the street like no-one was seeing them. Thesepeople are super wealthy, they're still being…
Just ‘practical’. VF
I might drive a huge Porsche, but I'm gonna help my kid piss out of the door. What about your
(25:26):
favourite place to eat, to drink or to hang out?VF: OK. In Shanghai I have a few places. I can
mention Porto Matto for comfort food, anItalian restaurant from the south of Italy
on 常熟路 [Chángshú Lù]. It’s a place whereI go when I really want to feel like home,
and I manage to do that. It's the food I’vegrown up with. And then I can also mention
(25:49):
Casa Mia for the quality of food. And I haveto say that I do really love W Hotel for their
Sunday brunch. I do like that vibe.OF: Nice. What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?VF: I have to say I'm really really
attached to the first bicycle I bought inBeijing. It's a proper 胡同 [Hútòng] bike
(26:12):
with huge wheels. I bought it on SmartBeijingfrom someone who was leaving Beijing after maybe
20 years. It was kind of a rare example of a 胡同[Hútòng] bike that people could use back in the
70s or the 80s. So I really kept it with care.And I was moving around the streets of Beijing
thanks to this transportation, that I gave to mybest friend once I left Beijing. It’s still there,
(26:37):
I still use it when I go there for business trips.OF: OK. Well I need to have a photo of that.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?VF: OK, so this is a 100块 [Kuài] note.
Someone folded it (26:50):
down, it looks like 毛 [Máo] is super sad. But then suddenly,
you change the perspective, and you seeMao assuming a happy face, and then also
a mean face at the very end.OF: Nice. Next question,
what's your go-to song to sing at KTV?VF: I think that I have to talk about
(27:12):
my favourite Chinese song that I like to singat KTV. It's called 我们不一样 [Wǒmen bù Yīyàng].
It's a very popular song from 大壮[Dàzhuàng]. I don't know the author well,
except for this song. But I really like to singit, especially when there's the refrain part.
He reaches some high tones, Ilove to try to get them well,
(27:35):
although it doesn't really happen often.OF: Yeah, but if you're drunk,
you don't care, right?VF: The other people care,
though. They still notice it.OF: OK, I'm going to steal that one.
And finally, what other China-related mediaor sources of information do you rely on?
VF (27:51):
So I know what's happening, because I read maybe the first page of a Chinese newspaper,
and I analyse the point of view of theChinese press. I watch CGTN sometimes. I
read CHINAWIRE and China Insights.OF: Very good. Well, thank you
Vitto. That was a real pleasure, I enjoyedgetting to know more about your background,
(28:13):
things that I didn't actually know myself.VF: Thank you so much for the great chance.
OF (28:17):
And before you go, out of everyone you know in China, who do you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?VF: Terika Corteel. She knows this country as
no-one else, I would say. She has a very veryparticular point of view on what happens here,
also related to her Tahitian island background.So it will be really interesting for you to hear
(28:43):
her point of view.OF: Well, thank you. I'm
glad that you said it was Terika. Becauseactually, I know you through Terika. And
yeah, she is from Tahiti - and I think that alone
makes her interesting enough to talk about - butyeah, her experiences in China should make for a
great episode. Thank you so much, Vitto.VF: Thank you again, Oscar, thanks.
[Outro]OF:
(29:06):
So Vitto has indeed opened a Padel tennis courtin central Shanghai, and it now has over 300
members. And if that wasn't enough, it happensto be the highest Padel court in the world.
It's called SinoPadel and it's at the ShanghaiInternational Fashion Education Centre - or
SIFEC - on 长寿路 [Chángshòu Lù]. I've posted a veryshort video of it online, so please check it out
(29:30):
at all the usual places. And apart from that, youcan also see other fun stuff such as Vitto eating
a bag full of tarrali; he and his colleaguesitting on some seized counterfeit toy cars;
he and friends posing like Da Vinci's'The Last Supper' at one of the favourite
restaurants he mentioned; him lookingvery relaxed in his hometown of Trani;
(29:52):
and my personal favourite, he and his bestpurchase in China, the 胡同 [Hútòng] bike.
As always, I'm going to remind youof the PREMIUM version of the show,
where you can hear the full version of myconversation with Vitto. You can now subscribe
with the click of a button on Apple Podcasts,just search for Mosaic of China PREMIUM there,
(30:12):
or head to Patreon or 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]. Here aresome clips of what you can hear there today.
[Clip 1]OF: Like, this
is not what I picture a legal team to be doing.VF: Indeed, there was not much purely legal in
this type of procedure.[Clip 2]
VF (30:25):
And these people, they would be kind of… OF
Yes. [Clip 3]
This is a kind of task that needs a lot of cold blood. So it’s not always easy to arrive
at that moment.[Clip 4]
You make the law, you find the trick. OF
step ahead, right?[End of Audio Clips]
(30:45):
And also, there were some really nice connectionswith previous guests from the podcast. Just by
chance, one of these was in the catch-up with theInstagram influencer Michael Zee at the end of
last week's episode with Crystyl Mo. While Vittocame to China from Italy, Michael has just moved
to Italy from China, and he was predicting someof the same things that Vitto mentioned about the
(31:07):
different pace of life. The biggest overlap waswith Vladimir Djurovic from Episode 13 of Season
02. While Vitto talked about the legal processof registering trademarks in China, Vladimir
talked about the creative process of coming upwith these Chinese names in the first place.
But perhaps the nicest connection came from thefact that Vitto and I recorded this episode in
(31:31):
my house, because at one point maybe you heardthe ringing of a bell just outside the window.
This was the sound of a tricyclepeddler collecting recycled goods
from the lane outside my apartment. And it wasexactly this sound that was picked by Stéphane
Wilmet - the Chief Consumer Officer ofL’Oréal in China from all the way back
(31:51):
in Episode 01 of Season 02 - as the thinghe would miss the most if he left China.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a catch-up with the literarytranslator Gigi Chang, from Season 01 Episode 24.
Heads up, there was a bug in the softwarewe used to record it, but luckily it only
(32:13):
affected the recording a few times, and it onlyseemed to affect my side of the conversation.
[Catch-Up Interview]GC:
Hello!OF: Hey!
GC (32:32):
Hello Oscar, how are you? OF
now that it's been so long. And I say that becauseactually you left Shanghai quite soon after we did
our recording. Where am I talking to you from now?GC: Yeah, I'm now in 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]. So I think
we must have recorded about two years ago.OF: Yes, it was. And how is 深圳 [Shēnzhèn]?
(32:55):
It's great. It's busy and happening. And because it's much warmer here,
a lot of the restaurants have outdoor seating.OF: Right.
So it always feels sort of buzzing. OF
guess would be more or less the same whereveryou are. It's just you and your clipboard.
Yes. And my computer, my desk, my whole setup. And it doesn't really change, you know.
(33:22):
I work from home anyway. And I didn'thave that much social interaction before.
OF (33:27):
Well, last time we talked, we were talking about your work translating, of course, ‘The
Legend of the Condor Heroes’ by 金庸 [Jīn Yōng].GC: When we talked, I think the second volume
of the novel - which was the first book that Itranslated for the series - had just come out.
I was starting to co-translate Volume 3 withthe translator of Volume 1, Anna Holmwood.
(33:54):
And then since then, I have finished translatingthe rest of the novel - which is Volume 4 - with
Shelly Bryant, who used to live in Shanghai,but right now I think she is in Singapore.
OK, so now you have co-translated three out of the four volumes…
GC (34:12):
Yes. OF
Yes. Yes, indeed, yes. OF
of Kung Fu for 2-3 years. So what does it mean?GC: Ah, six years.
OF (34:23):
Six already? How does it feel now to be done with the whole book? Like,
does it feel like a relief? Or do you miss it?GC: It's really exciting. I won't say I miss it,
because I've already started the next one.OF: Oh, so it’s not finished? Oh god.
GC (34:36):
No, no, no, it's a trilogy. So we've only finished the first novel
of the trilogy. The first novel is fourvolumes, and I'm now starting the next novel,
which is also another four volumes.OF: My god, this is going to be
your entire life’s work.GC: Yes. It's going to
(34:57):
be the next few years at least, hopefully,OF: Did you ever imagine you'll be spending
six years already - and then a furthergod knows how many - doing this one book?
No, I hadn’t sort of thought of it or planned it to happen this way, it just sort
of snowballed by itself. It’s… As a freelancer,it’s very very nice to know that you have work
(35:19):
lined up. At the same time it’s also verystressful to know that you've got work lined up,
because it means you may have to say no to alot of other opportunities when they arise.
OF (35:32):
You’ve already committed yourself. GC
comes like buses. They either come in batches, orthey don't. I guess it's nice to be able to really
immerse into these worlds. Because I read themin my early teens, and watched the TV dramas back
then, and it’s really nice to rediscover them.OF: Yeah, that is nice. And you've done other
(35:55):
podcasts since doing mine, I feel like I'velaunched your career as a podcast guest.
GC (36:00):
Yes, ‘Culture Potato’, ‘文化土豆 [Wénhuà Tǔdòu]’. OF
Sammi Liu is working on, right?GC: Her husband 一帆 [Yīfān]. And
they’ve actually got a bookshop now in London.OF: Well, this is actually it. Because
after you referred Sammi, she and her husbandmoved to London. And of course, I think the plan
(36:21):
was to have a lifestyle that was going to be halfLondon, half Beijing. But it turned out to be 100%
London.GC: London, yes.
OF (36:29):
Yeah. So actually, that's the reason why in the end, even though she was a great referral,
we couldn't really include her in thesecond season of Mosaic of China, sadly.
GC (36:39):
Yeah, wait actually they come back. OF
future season. But yeah, I'm sorry about that.But I did find a good replacement, so I will
put out your update chat - that we're doing now -alongside the person who I found as a replacement.
OK, OK, great. Great, yeah. OF
(37:01):
you left, and that I saw on a post that you did.It was about one of your pets which you counted
as your ‘best purchase that you made in China’.GC: Dora. Yes, she passed away last year. She
had a lot of health issues, she had no teeth, shecould barely see, she couldn’t hear very well. And
(37:23):
so in the end, she just got old and passed away.But she didn't suffer too much, so it was OK.
OF (37:29):
Yeah, and I was really sad when I saw you and your husband post about that. But
at the same time, it was so amazing to seewhat life you gave her. You know, the extra
two years that she was able to spend with you.Because you know, she was already given up for
dead when you adopted her in the first place.GC: Yes. Yes, yes. So it was a blessing,
and it was really nice to have her.We’ve still got one dog and one cat,
(37:52):
so it’s not like the household is empty.OF: Yes. And are there any plans to replenish
the menagerie with some local 深圳 [Shēnzhèn] pets?GC: Probably not for the time being, no.
Until you see another photo online, and then you're forced to.
GC (38:08):
Yes, yes, yes. OF
Yep. OF
so much, Gigi. It was great to have you on theoriginal show. And great to see you again now.
Yeah. OF
my heart for people like you who work with words.I just love the stuff that you do, when you are
swimming around those two cultures and trying tofind the little bridges that link the two. I just
(38:31):
love that stuff. Thank you so much, Gigi.GC: Yeah. OK, thank you.
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