May 17, 2021 • 29 mins
We can all be guilty of making sweeping generalisations about nationalities and cultures. But not all Dutch are liberal; not all Brazilians can dance, and not all New Zealanders like rugby. So it should come as no surprise to you that not all Chinese people are into pop music. Especially when it comes to Cassandra Chen, who owns 'Inferno', the one and only bar in China that's 100% dedicated to heavy metal. In today's episode, Cassandra discusses the history of Inferno, and it's status as a hub for the close-knit community of metalheads in China. And in so doing, she also demonstrates a great deal of patience and nonchalance with a nervous and uncool interviewer who is completely out of his depth. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Yang Yi from Season 01 Episode 21. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-21-yang-yi). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:32 - Part 1 14:18 - Part 2 21:29 - Outro 24:43 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-16-cassandra-chen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
[Trailer]CC: We welcome everybody. Until they get so
drunk and try to break stuff.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It's been a short while, but we're back withthe second half of Season 02. If you’re
(00:23):
a new listener, welcome, and here’s a quickrecap of how the show works. There are three
parts to each interview. The first part isa straightforward two-way conversation, which
starts with the guest introducing an objectthat in some way describes their life in China.
In the second part, I ask every guest thesame 10 China-related questions, all on the
(00:46):
theme of their personal experiences, tastesand opinions. And the final part is just one
extra question, where I ask each guest tonominate someone for the next Season of the
show. And this is how each interview representsa connective tile which builds out into a
Mosaic of China.
(01:06):
The show has also been designed to includea visual element, so please follow the images
on Instagram or Facebook, or head to https://mosaicofchina.com.In last week's bonus episode, we discussed
that there are transcripts of the show alsoon https://mosaicofchina.com, for anyone who
is hard of hearing or whose first languageisn't English. Actually there's a new update
(01:30):
to report, in the last couple of weeks, YouTubehas made it easier to upload captions to videos.
So I tried it out, and managed to upload allthe transcripts for each episode there. So
if you have access to YouTube you can nowlisten to the regular version of the show
while reading the subtitles in real time.I would do the same on 微博 [Wēibó], but
(01:51):
they've stopped allowing me to post there.Thanks for nothing, 微博 [Wēibó]…
Now that you're caught up, let's get on withtoday's show. And it's quite an embarrassing
one for me, because you can tell that I haveabsolutely no idea about the subject matter
we're talking about. I can just about fakemy way through most subjects, but not today!
(02:12):
So be prepared to roll your eyes at me a lotin this one. On top of that, my guest Cassandra
is just too cool and too nonchalant. So thiscombination of ignorance and intimidation
is apparently enough to turn me into a nervousgiggling child. Which I hope will at least
bring you some amusement.
[Part 1]OF: I'm with Cassandra Chen. Hello, Cassandra.
CC (02:37):
Hello. OF
Nice to see. OF
Inferno. OF
what this bar is, just by the name, right?CC: I hope so.
OF (02:51):
Inferno is a heavy metal bar. CC
Well, we’re going to talk about the bar. But before we do, the first question
I will ask is, what object did you bring thatin some way describes your life here in China?
CC (03:05):
Well, I brought an Inferno T-shirt. It’s a T-shirt made up for a Viking Night.
OF (03:13):
Oh, can I take a look? CC
OK, here we go. OK. Well, it's as I expected, it is dark. It is slightly scary.
CC (03:23):
Yeah, it's Odin on his horse. OF
Yeah. OF
Night?CC: We basically do some Viking metal, like
from Scandinavia. And people sometimes caneven dance to it, It's not really brutal music,
(03:44):
it's kind of happy. Right now, we're doingthis two or three times a year. And basically,
our customer would put on helmets, wear leatheroutfits, and drink from horns.
OF (04:01):
Oh. CC
Oh, so they bring their own horn. CC
And where did this idea come from? Is that something which is connected with heavy
metal?CC: Yes, actually, it is. These people are
barbarian.OF: Yeah, right. When I think about heavy
metal, I do think of Scandinavians with maybebig bodies, big beards, kind of aggressive…
CC (04:28):
Yeah, that's exactly what we have. It's really like home for the metalheads to hang
out, like a family, giving ideas for events,and sometimes helping out to wash the dishes.
OF (04:48):
The customers help out. CC
a very small community, and it’s kind ofa risk to open a heavy metal bar. I know a
lot of live houses, they have some heavy metalshows. But as a bar that only plays heavy
metal, no. You need to know enough peoplewho have the same hobby. It’s a big move.
(05:15):
So could I accurately say that yours is the only heavy metal bar in China?
CC (05:20):
Yes. Yes, you can say that. OF
Yeah OF
this because… I mean look at me, I am nota typical heavy metal fan, right?
Yeah. OF
Well, we accept everybody. I mean, different colours, even if they speak in different languages,
(05:43):
different thoughts… It’s fine. We welcomeeverybody…
OF (05:47):
OK. CC
break stuff.OF: It sounds like that does happen sometimes.
CC (05:55):
Yeah, it does. OF
customers?CC: Um, designers, engineers, English teachers,
even karate teachers, all kinds.OF: But are they mainly male?
Um, mainly, yes. We still have some girls. But they cannot drink that much. I was just
(06:21):
joking, we have both. I realised that mostof them are nerds. They like video games,
they play D&D, they even watch animation,and they love music. These kinds of people
can bring good ideas on the table, very creative.OF: So was it one of these nerds who first
(06:48):
came up with the Viking Night?CC: Yes, that's right.
OF (06:51):
Oh right. So you're already planning the next one as well. CC
the next one. Hopefully, like, end of theyear.
Great. Maybe I will come. CC
Do you have a very small horn for me? CC
There you go. Maybe I can fill it with a very small pink cocktail.
CC (07:12):
OK. OF
you guys.CC: Not at all, not at all. Like, on a Sunday
- the slowest night - you’ll have 10 peoplewatching some horror movies that we play all
the time.OF: Well, it sounds to me like your entire
community, your entire life, has some connectionto this music.
(07:34):
Yeah, you can say that. The metalheads - our small community, as I know them - most
of the people are honest people. Not aggressiveat all, not as you imagine. You can easily
talk to them. Then the second time you go,you know somebody.
OF (07:54):
Yeah. CC
So how did you get into it? Were your parents musicians of any kind?
CC (08:04):
No, not at all. My mom was like a sales manager, my dad was a chemist, in the lab.
So nothing related.OF: So what do they think of your life now?
Of course, they never agree, from the beginning. But they’ve somehow accepted
my choice. So here we are.OF: Exactly. And when did you first get into
(08:31):
this style of music?CC: I think at the end of high school, I listened
to Linkin Park. Then I was like “Hmm, maybeI want to play in a band when I get into university.”
Then I just started to listen to new metalfrom the beginning. Then my tastes just got
heavier. I like the heavier side, like heavyriffs. Again, you always can find your own
(08:58):
type of people, so we had this small community.You just start to hang out with them, go to
concerts, drink with them, talk about bands.New Urbans. After I graduated, I got a designing
job. But that was boring. Then I tried differentthings. A few years later, a heavy metal bar
(09:23):
opened. And I started to drink there.OF: And that was Inferno, was it?
Yeah, that was Inferno. OF
One year later, one of my friends died. So it reminded me that life is short. I should
do something that makes me happy. And makesme care. So I quit my daytime job, and I started
(09:47):
bartending at Inferno.OF: OK, how old were you then?
I think that was 26. I was pretty scared and shy. There were a lot of people. Everybody's
requesting drinks, expecting you to do somethingabout it. And I was basically just running
around. I didn’t even look into the customers’eyes.
OF (10:09):
Yeah. CC
And then, I think the noise problem closed down the first Inferno. We had a neighbourhood
like maybe 100 metres away. So…OF: So they complained.
CC (10:23):
Yes, they complained. Then we changed to the second place. Then the second Inferno
was much bigger, around 400 square metres,with a stage, with a kitchen. But then that
meant a lot of work. I lost one partner, becausemy partner left to Denmark.
OF (10:47):
Oh, I see. So until then you were in a partnership.
CC (10:51):
Yeah. Also, I had another partner, who was a Dutch girl. And the Dutch girl barely
had time to help out.OF: Oh so you're basically running it by yourself?
Yes, everything's on my shoulders. All the events, the stage equipment, the bartending,
(11:12):
the kitchen. At that time it was more likea live house. So every day I needed to contact
bands. Mostly local Shanghai bands, but sometimesI got some bands from Beijing. And then we
had some international tour bands. We hadNightwish, Carcass, Lamb of God, As I Lay
(11:41):
Dying...OF: And these are pretty famous bands right
now?CC: Yes. That was a lot. For me, all I remember
was just work. I had three years of insomnia.OF: Oh, insomnia.
Yes. OF
the outside. Like, you still had big bandscoming and you were still running the place.
(12:03):
Yes. OF
work for you.CC: It was just simply too much.
OF (12:09):
Yeah. That’s, I think, the thing people don't realise about running a bar, right?
They see the sexy side, like “Oh great,you're surrounded by friends, you're surrounded
by alcohol, you can see bands.”CC: Yeah, that’s right.
But the running of the bar is something else, right?
CC (12:22):
Yeah, that's a totally different thing. I didn't even want to step my foot into that
place anymore. Eventually, we decided to closedown the place. But I it took me, like, half
a year to process this idea.OF: Right. Because it would be hard to let
go, right?CC: Yeah, that's right. That was my baby.
OF (12:44):
And I guess you also felt some kind of responsibility to this community.
CC (12:48):
Yes, that's right. On the last night, some of the people just cried. I think at
that time, I really, really needed a break.But I also really, really didn’t want to
let it go. It was a complicated feeling.OF: Yeah. Well, I can imagine why it took
(13:09):
you six months to pull the trigger.CC: Yes, yeah. Then I went to Beijing for
a few weeks. And our regulars always remindedme about this place, how much this place has
been loved. So then I started looking fora new place. So the third Inferno, I targeted
(13:39):
it in a different way. We removed the kitchen,removed the stage, made the bar smaller, more
cosy. People still can make requests for music,listen to whatever they want, as long as it’s
heavy metal. And people just chill.OF: So, less about live shows.
Yeah, the stage was difficult to run. Not enough local bands. And the choice of
(14:06):
music is very narrow.OF: And this is what you meant by “It's
a risk to start a bar like this”.CC: Yeah, that's right.
OF (14:13):
Right. CC
Well, let's move on to Part 2. CC
[Part 2]OF: OK, Question 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?CC: I really admire the first Empress in the
唐 [Táng] Dynasty, who was the only Empressin Chinese history.
(14:35):
Ah, 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān], right? CC
Tell me why. CC
top of her life. And running the country,and making it strong. So as a woman at that
time, it's very impressive.OF: Do you try and live your life in the same
way?CC: Not really. I think nobody could. In the
(15:00):
清 [Qīng] Dynasty, one of the Empressestried to do the same thing. But I think she
destroyed the country instead of saving it.OF: Right, this is 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], right?
CC (15:13):
Yes. OF
[Cíxǐ], or more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]?CC: I hope more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]
but I don't think I'm as wise as her. So…OF: Nice. Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?CC: 苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái].
OF (15:29):
苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái]. OK, what does that mean?
CC (15:32):
That means ‘after suffering comes happiness’. OF
Most peoples lives have this growing experience, learning experience. And they turn into the
person that they want to be.OF: Right. Is that what happened to you after
(15:53):
Inferno 2? And then now you are in a placewhich is much happier?
Yes. Yes, I think so. OF
trying to think, ‘甘 [gān]’?CC: ‘甘 [Gān]' is ‘甘甜 [gāntián]’.
Sweet.OF: So the sweetness comes after. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. That makes sense. OK, I'm going to usethat.
OK. OF
China?CC: I like 三亚 [Sānyà], lying on the
(16:18):
beach. I like 莫干山 [Mògànshān], whichis close to nature in the mountains. And I'm
very interested one day to go to Tibet and新疆 [Xīnjiāng], which I think is very
exotic.OF: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Beijing.
What do you think about Beijing?CC: It's big. Lots of bands. People are more
(16:42):
easy. Nice people, very nice people.OF: Right. They're more straightforward, right?
That’s right. OF
Yeah, like that, yeah. OF
a reputation for being a bit more complicated,right? They don't always say what they mean.
Yeah, that's right. OF
(17:02):
I still need to do that. So maybe I will askfor your friends next time.
OK, yeah. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?CC: I think I would miss the most is… this
very convenient lifestyle. At 2 o’clock,if you want to buy some beer, you can get
(17:24):
it delivered in China. Other countries, probablynot.
OF (17:27):
And have you ever left China? Did you ever go overseas?
CC (17:30):
Yeah, I went to Germany. When I was in Germany, I really missed vegetables.
OF (17:36):
Because they have a lot of meat in Germany. CC
Right. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
CC (17:50):
A lot of things can surprise me. Ten years ago, we didn’t even have smartphones. And
now everybody does.OF: Mmm. This is gonna be an easy one for
you, what is your favourite place to hangout in Shanghai?
Well, of course, I hang out at Inferno most of the time.
OF (18:10):
And if there was a second choice? CC
Steakhouse buffet. All you can eat. It's apretty good deal for me.
Nice. What is the best or worst purchase you have recently made?
CC (18:25):
The best thing I bought is probably the drinking horn.
OF (18:28):
OK CC
Did you buy it on Taobao? CC
at a place which does those Viking things.OF: Ah, so actually, you can't use that one
because that wasn't in China.CC: In China
Yeah. CC
or Japanese, they have this cat in the shop,and it tries to ask for more money. Yeah,
(18:54):
instead I have one that gives a middle finger.And we drew some makeup on it and made it
look like a black metal cat.OF: Oh dear, yeah that sounds pretty cool.
Did you buy that on Taobao?CC: Yeah, I bought it on Taobao.
How did you even search for that? CC
I saw a cat with a middle finger, and I waslike “That looks great.”
(19:17):
That was designed for you. CC
Next question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
CC (19:24):
So it's two of our regular customers drinking from a horn and doing cheers to each other.
Yeah.OF: And this was at one of the Viking Nights?
Yes. OF
is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CC: Oh, ‘Sweet Child o' Mine’.
OF (19:45):
That’s a classic. CC
But you wouldn't call that ‘heavy’, right? That's obviously…
CC (19:51):
No, no. But it's pretty enjoyable to sing the song.
OF (19:55):
Yeah. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you use?
CC (20:01):
There is a magazine called Painkiller. OF
Yeah, it's like a heavy metal magazine. It's still the only one in China. And they
help the Wacken festival.OF: What's that?
It's like a German heavy metal festival. They do it once a year, it’s one of the
(20:21):
biggest heavy metal festival in Europe.OF: OK, so has there been a china band at
the Wacken festival?CC: Yeah, there have been a lot actually.
OF (20:30):
Well, thank you so much, Cassandra. If there was one band, where it's like for beginners,
which band or which song would you recommendwould be a good entry point?
CC (20:41):
We have a black metal band in Shanghai. They were founded in 2006, so it’s already
a 14-year-old band. It's called 惊叫基督[Jīngjiào jīdū].
OF (20:55):
惊叫基督 [Jīngjiào jīdū]. CC
Hmm. Cassandra, the last thing I would ask you before you leave is, out of everyone
you know in China, who would you recommendthat I interview for the next season of Mosaic
of China?CC: I think one of my best friends, also my
karate teacher, Telly.OF: Telly. Where’s he from?
CC (21:19):
Belgium. OF
in China, that’s an unusual combination.CC: Yeah. I know, right?
OF (21:27):
Thank you again, Cassandra. CC
[Outro]OF: If you're a metal head, please get in
touch to berate me about all the questionsI didn't think to ask Cassandra. But let me
try to appease you by inviting you to checkout the photos on social media, where you'll
see Cassandra posing with some very famousinternational metal bands. There's 'As I Lay
(21:49):
Dying', 'The Ghost Inside', 'Finntroll', 'Insomnium','Equilibrium', 'Suicide Silence' (please don't
make me say that one again), 'Carcass', 'Harakirifor the Sky', 'Vader', 'Hate', and 'Thy Disease'.
You can also see Cassandra's Inferno tattoo;her best purchase, the amazing beckoning cat
(22:12):
that's... definitely not beckoning; her object,the Viking Night T-Shirt, her favourite WeChat
Sticker; and loads of other photos from eventsat past and present incarnations of the Inferno
bar.
The biggest connection between Cassandra andSeason 01 of the show would be Nini Sum, the
independent artist from from Episode 16, whoalso ran rings around me with her coolness.
(22:37):
They both have a very similar vibe, and theyboth also mentioned Linkin Park, actually.
There's a more direct connection with theChinese comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01
Episode 02, who also mentioned the story ofWǔ Zétiān [武則天] as her favourite
China-related fact. When Cassandra mentionedthe 清 [Qīng] empress 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], this
(22:57):
links to the brand naming expert VladimirDjurovic from Season 02 Episode 13, and his
story about 老佛爷 [Lǎofóyé] and theChinese branding of the French company Galleries
Lafayette. Cassandra would miss vegetablesif she left China, which was exactly the same
answer as Jovana Zhang, the handicrafts designerfrom Season 02 Episode 08. Cassandra's favourite
(23:19):
destinations in China were 三亚 (Sānyà)and 莫干山 [Mògànshān], which connects
her respectively with Emily Madge, the aquariumconservationist from Season 01 Episode 14
and Sean Harmon, the craft beer business leaderfrom Season 02 Episode 09. And can you believe
it, Cassandra's go-to song to sing at karaokewas Sweet Child o' Mine by Guns N' Roses,
(23:41):
which makes it the first song that has beenmentioned 3 times on the show. The other two
times were Lissanthea Taylor, the pain managementexpert from Season 01 Episode 28, and Louise
Roy, the childbirth expert from Season 02Episode 06. So with all that said, even though
Cassandra represents such a niche interestgroup, I think she might be the most connected
(24:04):
piece of the Mosaic so far.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. There follows a catch-up
chat with Yang Yi, the broadcaster from Season01 Episode 21. And guess what, when I got
home from the studio after my chat with Yi,I discovered that the recording suddenly cuts
off halfway. So please enjoy this furtherexample of basic incompetence, and I'll see
(24:30):
you again next week for some more!
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Are we recording?
YY (24:45):
Yeah, I'm recording. OF
Yeah, it's a magic moment. OF
Hi, Oscar. Very nice to meet you again. OF
Yes. It’s really… I think it's a very special year. Yes.
OF (25:04):
We've had COVID, of course, but then for you, your life has taken a big 180 since we
did our recording.YY: Yes.
When we recorded, you were already a podcaster. But I think you had a day job still in broadcasting?
YY (25:17):
Yes. OF
And we are actually doing our interview inyour studio. And it is a beauty. So it's called
JustPod, your company, right?YY: Yes, JustPod is a podcasting company.
And my partner is an entrepreneur. So we co-createdthis company. I quit my television job, and
(25:38):
the podcast has become my full time job.OF: Congratulations.
Yeah. Thank you. So since then, it’s been at least one and a half years.
OF (25:46):
Tell me about the new lifestyle, then. It's a more entrepreneurial lifestyle, there's
no salary, you are running on your own witsat this point, right?
YY (25:56):
Yes. I have to say, you know, doing your own business is a very difficult problem,
because I have different roles. I am a producer;I have my own shows under my company; and
I’m also the co-creator of this company,I'm the COO, the Chief Operating Officer.
So I have to do a lot of things to handlethis company. I need balance. And of course,
(26:22):
I have a boyfriend this year. So I have threedifferent roles: a creator, a businessman,
and a boyfriend. I still feel confused atthis moment about these things, because I
like to produce the show, I like to talk topeople. At this moment, I think, usually in
(26:45):
the daytime I'm a businessman. But at night,when I’m alone, I'm a podcaster. So I have
no phones, I have no meetings. So I think“OK, it's time for me, myself, to edit the
shows”. But at this point, another issue,my boyfriend.
OF (27:03):
The boyfriend. I was going to say… YY
time at work.”OF: Mmm. That’s when you start to bump into
your other responsibility.YY: Yes.
OK. Well, you look calm, even though you're juggling all these things. You look smiley,
you look happy, so something's going right.YY: Yes, I think it is. I'm very happy at
(27:24):
this moment. I still feel challenge. Our companyhas 11 original podcasts.
Now it's 11, OK. YY
Well, this is what I wanted to ask, because we had a similar conversation during our interview.
YY (27:37):
Yes. OF
in the last year? Has there been one showthat was a breakout show? Has there been a
boom in one particular genre? Tell me what'shappened in the last year?
Yes, of course. I think the year 2020 meant a lot for Chinese podcasting. During
the pandemic, he had a brand new applicationfor podcasting…
OF (27:58):
小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu]. YY
which means a little cosmos. Yeah. The firstlocalised podcast application in China. So
it brought a lot of attention, it broughta lot of audience into this area.
Interesting, because you were the one who told me about that in the run-up to PodFest,
(28:18):
because you are one of the organisers behindPodFest, that’s where I met you first of
all.YY: Yes.
This is now two, two and a half years ago. You had 小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu] as
your sponsor.YY: Yes. So they're very passionate in this
area. And they want to more and more customersto know them. So PodFest China is maybe a
good stage.OF: And just seeing the photos from PodFest…
(28:41):
Because I was thinking, when we first wentto PodFest, it was very much an international
event, because most of the knowledge aboutpodcasting was from outside of China.
YY (28:49):
Yes, and it was more like a salon. OF
It was in a very small conference room. OF
half Mandarin.YY: Yes.
OF (28:59):
And then this year, it was a full-blown, massive event. And just Chinese. So it shows
that the domestic market has really gone places.YY: Yes. But of course the pandemic is a reason,
because it was very difficult to invite foreignguests to China.
Ah. YY
in China is booming this year, so more andmore people become podcasters, more and more
(29:22):
people become listeners. So we already hadenough topics to talk about.
[Trailer]CC: We welcome everybody. Until they get so
drunk and try to break stuff.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It's been a short while, but we're back withthe second half of Season 02. If you’re
(00:23):
a new listener, welcome, and here’s a quickrecap of how the show works. There are three
parts to each interview. The first part isa straightforward two-way conversation, which
starts with the guest introducing an objectthat in some way describes their life in China.
In the second part, I ask every guest thesame 10 China-related questions, all on the
(00:46):
theme of their personal experiences, tastesand opinions. And the final part is just one
extra question, where I ask each guest tonominate someone for the next Season of the
show. And this is how each interview representsa connective tile which builds out into a
Mosaic of China.
(01:06):
The show has also been designed to includea visual element, so please follow the images
on Instagram or Facebook, or head to https://mosaicofchina.com.In last week's bonus episode, we discussed
that there are transcripts of the show alsoon https://mosaicofchina.com, for anyone who
is hard of hearing or whose first languageisn't English. Actually there's a new update
(01:30):
to report, in the last couple of weeks, YouTubehas made it easier to upload captions to videos.
So I tried it out, and managed to upload allthe transcripts for each episode there. So
if you have access to YouTube you can nowlisten to the regular version of the show
while reading the subtitles in real time.I would do the same on 微博 [Wēibó], but
(01:51):
they've stopped allowing me to post there.Thanks for nothing, 微博 [Wēibó]…
Now that you're caught up, let's get on withtoday's show. And it's quite an embarrassing
one for me, because you can tell that I haveabsolutely no idea about the subject matter
we're talking about. I can just about fakemy way through most subjects, but not today!
(02:12):
So be prepared to roll your eyes at me a lotin this one. On top of that, my guest Cassandra
is just too cool and too nonchalant. So thiscombination of ignorance and intimidation
is apparently enough to turn me into a nervousgiggling child. Which I hope will at least
bring you some amusement.
[Part 1]OF: I'm with Cassandra Chen. Hello, Cassandra.
CC (02:37):
Hello. OF
Nice to see. OF
Inferno. OF
what this bar is, just by the name, right?CC: I hope so.
OF (02:51):
Inferno is a heavy metal bar. CC
Well, we’re going to talk about the bar. But before we do, the first question
I will ask is, what object did you bring thatin some way describes your life here in China?
CC (03:05):
Well, I brought an Inferno T-shirt. It’s a T-shirt made up for a Viking Night.
OF (03:13):
Oh, can I take a look? CC
OK, here we go. OK. Well, it's as I expected, it is dark. It is slightly scary.
CC (03:23):
Yeah, it's Odin on his horse. OF
Yeah. OF
Night?CC: We basically do some Viking metal, like
from Scandinavia. And people sometimes caneven dance to it, It's not really brutal music,
(03:44):
it's kind of happy. Right now, we're doingthis two or three times a year. And basically,
our customer would put on helmets, wear leatheroutfits, and drink from horns.
OF (04:01):
Oh. CC
Oh, so they bring their own horn. CC
And where did this idea come from? Is that something which is connected with heavy
metal?CC: Yes, actually, it is. These people are
barbarian.OF: Yeah, right. When I think about heavy
metal, I do think of Scandinavians with maybebig bodies, big beards, kind of aggressive…
CC (04:28):
Yeah, that's exactly what we have. It's really like home for the metalheads to hang
out, like a family, giving ideas for events,and sometimes helping out to wash the dishes.
OF (04:48):
The customers help out. CC
a very small community, and it’s kind ofa risk to open a heavy metal bar. I know a
lot of live houses, they have some heavy metalshows. But as a bar that only plays heavy
metal, no. You need to know enough peoplewho have the same hobby. It’s a big move.
(05:15):
So could I accurately say that yours is the only heavy metal bar in China?
CC (05:20):
Yes. Yes, you can say that. OF
Yeah OF
this because… I mean look at me, I am nota typical heavy metal fan, right?
Yeah. OF
Well, we accept everybody. I mean, different colours, even if they speak in different languages,
(05:43):
different thoughts… It’s fine. We welcomeeverybody…
OF (05:47):
OK. CC
break stuff.OF: It sounds like that does happen sometimes.
CC (05:55):
Yeah, it does. OF
customers?CC: Um, designers, engineers, English teachers,
even karate teachers, all kinds.OF: But are they mainly male?
Um, mainly, yes. We still have some girls. But they cannot drink that much. I was just
(06:21):
joking, we have both. I realised that mostof them are nerds. They like video games,
they play D&D, they even watch animation,and they love music. These kinds of people
can bring good ideas on the table, very creative.OF: So was it one of these nerds who first
(06:48):
came up with the Viking Night?CC: Yes, that's right.
OF (06:51):
Oh right. So you're already planning the next one as well. CC
the next one. Hopefully, like, end of theyear.
Great. Maybe I will come. CC
Do you have a very small horn for me? CC
There you go. Maybe I can fill it with a very small pink cocktail.
CC (07:12):
OK. OF
you guys.CC: Not at all, not at all. Like, on a Sunday
- the slowest night - you’ll have 10 peoplewatching some horror movies that we play all
the time.OF: Well, it sounds to me like your entire
community, your entire life, has some connectionto this music.
(07:34):
Yeah, you can say that. The metalheads - our small community, as I know them - most
of the people are honest people. Not aggressiveat all, not as you imagine. You can easily
talk to them. Then the second time you go,you know somebody.
OF (07:54):
Yeah. CC
So how did you get into it? Were your parents musicians of any kind?
CC (08:04):
No, not at all. My mom was like a sales manager, my dad was a chemist, in the lab.
So nothing related.OF: So what do they think of your life now?
Of course, they never agree, from the beginning. But they’ve somehow accepted
my choice. So here we are.OF: Exactly. And when did you first get into
(08:31):
this style of music?CC: I think at the end of high school, I listened
to Linkin Park. Then I was like “Hmm, maybeI want to play in a band when I get into university.”
Then I just started to listen to new metalfrom the beginning. Then my tastes just got
heavier. I like the heavier side, like heavyriffs. Again, you always can find your own
(08:58):
type of people, so we had this small community.You just start to hang out with them, go to
concerts, drink with them, talk about bands.New Urbans. After I graduated, I got a designing
job. But that was boring. Then I tried differentthings. A few years later, a heavy metal bar
(09:23):
opened. And I started to drink there.OF: And that was Inferno, was it?
Yeah, that was Inferno. OF
One year later, one of my friends died. So it reminded me that life is short. I should
do something that makes me happy. And makesme care. So I quit my daytime job, and I started
(09:47):
bartending at Inferno.OF: OK, how old were you then?
I think that was 26. I was pretty scared and shy. There were a lot of people. Everybody's
requesting drinks, expecting you to do somethingabout it. And I was basically just running
around. I didn’t even look into the customers’eyes.
OF (10:09):
Yeah. CC
And then, I think the noise problem closed down the first Inferno. We had a neighbourhood
like maybe 100 metres away. So…OF: So they complained.
CC (10:23):
Yes, they complained. Then we changed to the second place. Then the second Inferno
was much bigger, around 400 square metres,with a stage, with a kitchen. But then that
meant a lot of work. I lost one partner, becausemy partner left to Denmark.
OF (10:47):
Oh, I see. So until then you were in a partnership.
CC (10:51):
Yeah. Also, I had another partner, who was a Dutch girl. And the Dutch girl barely
had time to help out.OF: Oh so you're basically running it by yourself?
Yes, everything's on my shoulders. All the events, the stage equipment, the bartending,
(11:12):
the kitchen. At that time it was more likea live house. So every day I needed to contact
bands. Mostly local Shanghai bands, but sometimesI got some bands from Beijing. And then we
had some international tour bands. We hadNightwish, Carcass, Lamb of God, As I Lay
(11:41):
Dying...OF: And these are pretty famous bands right
now?CC: Yes. That was a lot. For me, all I remember
was just work. I had three years of insomnia.OF: Oh, insomnia.
Yes. OF
the outside. Like, you still had big bandscoming and you were still running the place.
(12:03):
Yes. OF
work for you.CC: It was just simply too much.
OF (12:09):
Yeah. That’s, I think, the thing people don't realise about running a bar, right?
They see the sexy side, like “Oh great,you're surrounded by friends, you're surrounded
by alcohol, you can see bands.”CC: Yeah, that’s right.
But the running of the bar is something else, right?
CC (12:22):
Yeah, that's a totally different thing. I didn't even want to step my foot into that
place anymore. Eventually, we decided to closedown the place. But I it took me, like, half
a year to process this idea.OF: Right. Because it would be hard to let
go, right?CC: Yeah, that's right. That was my baby.
OF (12:44):
And I guess you also felt some kind of responsibility to this community.
CC (12:48):
Yes, that's right. On the last night, some of the people just cried. I think at
that time, I really, really needed a break.But I also really, really didn’t want to
let it go. It was a complicated feeling.OF: Yeah. Well, I can imagine why it took
(13:09):
you six months to pull the trigger.CC: Yes, yeah. Then I went to Beijing for
a few weeks. And our regulars always remindedme about this place, how much this place has
been loved. So then I started looking fora new place. So the third Inferno, I targeted
(13:39):
it in a different way. We removed the kitchen,removed the stage, made the bar smaller, more
cosy. People still can make requests for music,listen to whatever they want, as long as it’s
heavy metal. And people just chill.OF: So, less about live shows.
Yeah, the stage was difficult to run. Not enough local bands. And the choice of
(14:06):
music is very narrow.OF: And this is what you meant by “It's
a risk to start a bar like this”.CC: Yeah, that's right.
OF (14:13):
Right. CC
Well, let's move on to Part 2. CC
[Part 2]OF: OK, Question 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?CC: I really admire the first Empress in the
唐 [Táng] Dynasty, who was the only Empressin Chinese history.
(14:35):
Ah, 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān], right? CC
Tell me why. CC
top of her life. And running the country,and making it strong. So as a woman at that
time, it's very impressive.OF: Do you try and live your life in the same
way?CC: Not really. I think nobody could. In the
(15:00):
清 [Qīng] Dynasty, one of the Empressestried to do the same thing. But I think she
destroyed the country instead of saving it.OF: Right, this is 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], right?
CC (15:13):
Yes. OF
[Cíxǐ], or more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]?CC: I hope more like 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān]
but I don't think I'm as wise as her. So…OF: Nice. Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?CC: 苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái].
OF (15:29):
苦尽甘来 [Kǔjìn gānlái]. OK, what does that mean?
CC (15:32):
That means ‘after suffering comes happiness’. OF
Most peoples lives have this growing experience, learning experience. And they turn into the
person that they want to be.OF: Right. Is that what happened to you after
(15:53):
Inferno 2? And then now you are in a placewhich is much happier?
Yes. Yes, I think so. OF
trying to think, ‘甘 [gān]’?CC: ‘甘 [Gān]' is ‘甘甜 [gāntián]’.
Sweet.OF: So the sweetness comes after. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. That makes sense. OK, I'm going to usethat.
OK. OF
China?CC: I like 三亚 [Sānyà], lying on the
(16:18):
beach. I like 莫干山 [Mògànshān], whichis close to nature in the mountains. And I'm
very interested one day to go to Tibet and新疆 [Xīnjiāng], which I think is very
exotic.OF: Yeah. You spent a lot of time in Beijing.
What do you think about Beijing?CC: It's big. Lots of bands. People are more
(16:42):
easy. Nice people, very nice people.OF: Right. They're more straightforward, right?
That’s right. OF
Yeah, like that, yeah. OF
a reputation for being a bit more complicated,right? They don't always say what they mean.
Yeah, that's right. OF
(17:02):
I still need to do that. So maybe I will askfor your friends next time.
OK, yeah. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?CC: I think I would miss the most is… this
very convenient lifestyle. At 2 o’clock,if you want to buy some beer, you can get
(17:24):
it delivered in China. Other countries, probablynot.
OF (17:27):
And have you ever left China? Did you ever go overseas?
CC (17:30):
Yeah, I went to Germany. When I was in Germany, I really missed vegetables.
OF (17:36):
Because they have a lot of meat in Germany. CC
Right. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
CC (17:50):
A lot of things can surprise me. Ten years ago, we didn’t even have smartphones. And
now everybody does.OF: Mmm. This is gonna be an easy one for
you, what is your favourite place to hangout in Shanghai?
Well, of course, I hang out at Inferno most of the time.
OF (18:10):
And if there was a second choice? CC
Steakhouse buffet. All you can eat. It's apretty good deal for me.
Nice. What is the best or worst purchase you have recently made?
CC (18:25):
The best thing I bought is probably the drinking horn.
OF (18:28):
OK CC
Did you buy it on Taobao? CC
at a place which does those Viking things.OF: Ah, so actually, you can't use that one
because that wasn't in China.CC: In China
Yeah. CC
or Japanese, they have this cat in the shop,and it tries to ask for more money. Yeah,
(18:54):
instead I have one that gives a middle finger.And we drew some makeup on it and made it
look like a black metal cat.OF: Oh dear, yeah that sounds pretty cool.
Did you buy that on Taobao?CC: Yeah, I bought it on Taobao.
How did you even search for that? CC
I saw a cat with a middle finger, and I waslike “That looks great.”
(19:17):
That was designed for you. CC
Next question. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
CC (19:24):
So it's two of our regular customers drinking from a horn and doing cheers to each other.
Yeah.OF: And this was at one of the Viking Nights?
Yes. OF
is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CC: Oh, ‘Sweet Child o' Mine’.
OF (19:45):
That’s a classic. CC
But you wouldn't call that ‘heavy’, right? That's obviously…
CC (19:51):
No, no. But it's pretty enjoyable to sing the song.
OF (19:55):
Yeah. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you use?
CC (20:01):
There is a magazine called Painkiller. OF
Yeah, it's like a heavy metal magazine. It's still the only one in China. And they
help the Wacken festival.OF: What's that?
It's like a German heavy metal festival. They do it once a year, it’s one of the
(20:21):
biggest heavy metal festival in Europe.OF: OK, so has there been a china band at
the Wacken festival?CC: Yeah, there have been a lot actually.
OF (20:30):
Well, thank you so much, Cassandra. If there was one band, where it's like for beginners,
which band or which song would you recommendwould be a good entry point?
CC (20:41):
We have a black metal band in Shanghai. They were founded in 2006, so it’s already
a 14-year-old band. It's called 惊叫基督[Jīngjiào jīdū].
OF (20:55):
惊叫基督 [Jīngjiào jīdū]. CC
Hmm. Cassandra, the last thing I would ask you before you leave is, out of everyone
you know in China, who would you recommendthat I interview for the next season of Mosaic
of China?CC: I think one of my best friends, also my
karate teacher, Telly.OF: Telly. Where’s he from?
CC (21:19):
Belgium. OF
in China, that’s an unusual combination.CC: Yeah. I know, right?
OF (21:27):
Thank you again, Cassandra. CC
[Outro]OF: If you're a metal head, please get in
touch to berate me about all the questionsI didn't think to ask Cassandra. But let me
try to appease you by inviting you to checkout the photos on social media, where you'll
see Cassandra posing with some very famousinternational metal bands. There's 'As I Lay
(21:49):
Dying', 'The Ghost Inside', 'Finntroll', 'Insomnium','Equilibrium', 'Suicide Silence' (please don't
make me say that one again), 'Carcass', 'Harakirifor the Sky', 'Vader', 'Hate', and 'Thy Disease'.
You can also see Cassandra's Inferno tattoo;her best purchase, the amazing beckoning cat
(22:12):
that's... definitely not beckoning; her object,the Viking Night T-Shirt, her favourite WeChat
Sticker; and loads of other photos from eventsat past and present incarnations of the Inferno
bar.
The biggest connection between Cassandra andSeason 01 of the show would be Nini Sum, the
independent artist from from Episode 16, whoalso ran rings around me with her coolness.
(22:37):
They both have a very similar vibe, and theyboth also mentioned Linkin Park, actually.
There's a more direct connection with theChinese comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01
Episode 02, who also mentioned the story ofWǔ Zétiān [武則天] as her favourite
China-related fact. When Cassandra mentionedthe 清 [Qīng] empress 慈禧 [Cíxǐ], this
(22:57):
links to the brand naming expert VladimirDjurovic from Season 02 Episode 13, and his
story about 老佛爷 [Lǎofóyé] and theChinese branding of the French company Galleries
Lafayette. Cassandra would miss vegetablesif she left China, which was exactly the same
answer as Jovana Zhang, the handicrafts designerfrom Season 02 Episode 08. Cassandra's favourite
(23:19):
destinations in China were 三亚 (Sānyà)and 莫干山 [Mògànshān], which connects
her respectively with Emily Madge, the aquariumconservationist from Season 01 Episode 14
and Sean Harmon, the craft beer business leaderfrom Season 02 Episode 09. And can you believe
it, Cassandra's go-to song to sing at karaokewas Sweet Child o' Mine by Guns N' Roses,
(23:41):
which makes it the first song that has beenmentioned 3 times on the show. The other two
times were Lissanthea Taylor, the pain managementexpert from Season 01 Episode 28, and Louise
Roy, the childbirth expert from Season 02Episode 06. So with all that said, even though
Cassandra represents such a niche interestgroup, I think she might be the most connected
(24:04):
piece of the Mosaic so far.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. There follows a catch-up
chat with Yang Yi, the broadcaster from Season01 Episode 21. And guess what, when I got
home from the studio after my chat with Yi,I discovered that the recording suddenly cuts
off halfway. So please enjoy this furtherexample of basic incompetence, and I'll see
(24:30):
you again next week for some more!
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Are we recording?
YY (24:45):
Yeah, I'm recording. OF
Yeah, it's a magic moment. OF
Hi, Oscar. Very nice to meet you again. OF
Yes. It’s really… I think it's a very special year. Yes.
OF (25:04):
We've had COVID, of course, but then for you, your life has taken a big 180 since we
did our recording.YY: Yes.
When we recorded, you were already a podcaster. But I think you had a day job still in broadcasting?
YY (25:17):
Yes. OF
And we are actually doing our interview inyour studio. And it is a beauty. So it's called
JustPod, your company, right?YY: Yes, JustPod is a podcasting company.
And my partner is an entrepreneur. So we co-createdthis company. I quit my television job, and
(25:38):
the podcast has become my full time job.OF: Congratulations.
Yeah. Thank you. So since then, it’s been at least one and a half years.
OF (25:46):
Tell me about the new lifestyle, then. It's a more entrepreneurial lifestyle, there's
no salary, you are running on your own witsat this point, right?
YY (25:56):
Yes. I have to say, you know, doing your own business is a very difficult problem,
because I have different roles. I am a producer;I have my own shows under my company; and
I’m also the co-creator of this company,I'm the COO, the Chief Operating Officer.
So I have to do a lot of things to handlethis company. I need balance. And of course,
(26:22):
I have a boyfriend this year. So I have threedifferent roles: a creator, a businessman,
and a boyfriend. I still feel confused atthis moment about these things, because I
like to produce the show, I like to talk topeople. At this moment, I think, usually in
(26:45):
the daytime I'm a businessman. But at night,when I’m alone, I'm a podcaster. So I have
no phones, I have no meetings. So I think“OK, it's time for me, myself, to edit the
shows”. But at this point, another issue,my boyfriend.
OF (27:03):
The boyfriend. I was going to say… YY
time at work.”OF: Mmm. That’s when you start to bump into
your other responsibility.YY: Yes.
OK. Well, you look calm, even though you're juggling all these things. You look smiley,
you look happy, so something's going right.YY: Yes, I think it is. I'm very happy at
(27:24):
this moment. I still feel challenge. Our companyhas 11 original podcasts.
Now it's 11, OK. YY
Well, this is what I wanted to ask, because we had a similar conversation during our interview.
YY (27:37):
Yes. OF
in the last year? Has there been one showthat was a breakout show? Has there been a
boom in one particular genre? Tell me what'shappened in the last year?
Yes, of course. I think the year 2020 meant a lot for Chinese podcasting. During
the pandemic, he had a brand new applicationfor podcasting…
OF (27:58):
小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu]. YY
which means a little cosmos. Yeah. The firstlocalised podcast application in China. So
it brought a lot of attention, it broughta lot of audience into this area.
Interesting, because you were the one who told me about that in the run-up to PodFest,
(28:18):
because you are one of the organisers behindPodFest, that’s where I met you first of
all.YY: Yes.
This is now two, two and a half years ago. You had 小宇宙 [Xiǎoyǔzhòu] as
your sponsor.YY: Yes. So they're very passionate in this
area. And they want to more and more customersto know them. So PodFest China is maybe a
good stage.OF: And just seeing the photos from PodFest…
(28:41):
Because I was thinking, when we first wentto PodFest, it was very much an international
event, because most of the knowledge aboutpodcasting was from outside of China.
YY (28:49):
Yes, and it was more like a salon. OF
It was in a very small conference room. OF
half Mandarin.YY: Yes.
OF (28:59):
And then this year, it was a full-blown, massive event. And just Chinese. So it shows
that the domestic market has really gone places.YY: Yes. But of course the pandemic is a reason,
because it was very difficult to invite foreignguests to China.
Ah. YY
in China is booming this year, so more andmore people become podcasters, more and more
(29:22):
people become listeners. So we already hadenough topics to talk about.
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