March 2, 2020 • 27 mins
We all take translation and translators for granted these days. There are now apps on your phone that can translate inputted text, can magically convert text within photos, and can even simultaneously translate audio as you’re speaking. But once you listen to Gigi Chang talk about the philosophy behind her work translating literary texts, you’ll know that there can be no substitute to the human touch. If you’ve worked in any kind of international arena, you will have had some experience in having work translated, be it for marketing slogans, short texts, or longer pieces. So I hope that listening to this episode will give you a broader appreciation of the process behind it. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:21 - Part 1 17:32 - Part 2 25:00 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]GC: It’s the most beautiful poetry on the
(00:06):
surface. But if you really know the context, it’sthe dirtiest dirtiest smut. It's pornographic.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Well, thanks very much for all the commentson last week's episode with Greg Nance. It
(00:28):
was a real honour to be part of Greg'sprocess of speaking more openly about
his past in public. And I think all of thecomments his story has received reflects
the support that he'll be sure to getin the future. Good luck to you, Greg.
Since last week, there hasn't been much changein the situation with the Coronavirus in China.
It's the beginning of March 2020, and now it'sthe world outside of China that is becoming more
(00:51):
of a source of anxiety. It looks likeany new rules coming into effect here
will be about protecting people in Chinafrom those arriving from other countries,
and potentially bringing thevirus back in. What a mess.
Today's conversation is with Gigi Chang and, likeall of the remaining episodes of the season, it
was recorded way before today's current situation.Gigi works as a literary translator, so if you're
(01:16):
someone who in any way deals with words orlanguage, then you should really enjoy this one.
[Part 1]OF: My chat today is with Gigi Chang.
Gigi is a translator, who has been living herein Shanghai for nine years now. And as you know,
we start all of these conversations with anobject. So what object did you bring in that in
(01:37):
some way exemplifies your life here in China?GC: I’ve brought my clipboard. I suddenly
discovered how useful it is when I startedtranslating, because often what I work on,
I might not have a physical book, I just geta digital document. And it's so much easier
to work on when it's been printed out. And aclipboard is perfect because it's really hard.
(02:01):
So you can stand it up on a stand, or just propit up somewhere. And it's very easy to write on. I
never thought I would be using a clipboard ever inmy life, other than at school taking attendance.
OF (02:15):
Yeah. GC
you can prop it up on a plane, you can propit up on a train. It's extremely handy.
I love it for its sheer banality. GC
Have you had the same on the whole time? GC
best thing is, you can also clip or pen onto it.OF: You know, I've never seen such a technological
advance in this room before, it's quite something…GC: I use the iPad as well. But you can't write
(02:42):
as fast as with pen and paper. And becauseyou can't flip back and forth so easily.
Right. GC
I can easily jump from page 20 to 40. But with adigital document, I can't put them side by side.
Yeah. And so I guess what you're doing there, in that instance,
is you're cross-referencing something you'vesaid before, and you want to be consistent?
GC (03:01):
Yeah. Or “Are these two passages really similar?” Or… I guess I'm at an
age that I find it much easier to read on paper.OF: I'm not sure that's an age thing, because I
think there's something tactile, you know. It'ssomething which is connected when you touch
something, you can actually take something in.GC: Yeah. And I think it is also habit as well.
You go to a lecture hall now, students are takingnotes on their computer. I type really fast,
(03:26):
but I wouldn't be able to type notes on acomputer, because it won't make any sense.
OF (03:29):
Well, how did you fall into this line, then? Like, was it always your
dream to become a translator?GC: Not really, it's really
by accident. So I grew up in Hong Kong,but I went to university in London. And
then I worked for the V&A on a Chinese project.OF: That's the ‘Victoria & Albert Museum’, right?
GC (03:49):
Yes, that's right. And at that time - it was between 2005 and 2008 - the Beijing Olympics were
coming up. So they were actually, all aroundthe world, lots of special events or projects
or displays about China. But at that time, ethnicChinese international national students tended to
either come from Hong Kong, Taiwan, orthe Chinese diasporas around the world.
(04:13):
Mainland Chinese students were still very mucha rarity. And particularly in the workplace,
you had very few Chinese speakers. And also atthat time in mainland China, there were very
few English speakers, or people that aren'tChinese who can speak Chinese. So basically,
(04:33):
I was the assistant on the project. So anyoneelse in the museum that needed help communicating
with their Chinese artists would come tome, because they're not going to my boss.
OF (04:41):
Nice. GC
started doing my first translations. Some of thempublished as well, in catalogues published by the
museum. That was the practical side. And the otherside is that I love theatre. And I was in London,
I'd seen literally hundreds of performances. AndI'd never seen a single Chinese play in English.
(05:03):
You know, you see a lot - not a lot, but yousee a fair amount - of translations from Europe,
from Russia, from South America, from Japan, frommost other parts of the world. But not China.
In terms of pure sort of population statistics,you know, one of the ancient civilizations, yet,
(05:24):
you can't name a story, you can't name a song,you can't name anything. You probably can't even
name a famous person, other than a few politicalfigures. You can't name a writer. Something didn’t
feel right about that. And so, at that point, Ialso translated a play, because I thought “Well,
(05:45):
maybe I'll put it on with my friends”.OF: And that was just voluntarily,
like you hadn't been asked…GC: No, no, no. I was going to put it
on with a friend, because we were both aspiringto be theatre producers at that point. Yeah.
And so this is how you've landed into your particular niche, right? You have been
translating cultural artefacts - includingtheatre - all this time since then, right?
GC (06:04):
Yes. OF
how do you even start? You know, you've gotthis literary piece, which is imbued with
thousands of years of Chinese culture. How doyou even go about translating that into English?
You need to know who's going to read it. Why it is being translated. This is
the same as writing anything. You know, why am Iwriting it? Once you work out that big question,
(06:26):
then it's much easier to work out all the otherbig questions. What does it feel like, reading
it? It is a difficult read? Is it difficulton purpose? Each piece of writing, there's
always something a little bit different. There's atexture to it, just like fabric. Or like food, you
know, is it crunchy or soft? And then how to bringthat sense into the reading experience as well.
(06:50):
It's like peeling an onion or going on a treasurehunt. You’re given a map, you have a roadmap, you
have some information, but you have to get to it.OF: And are you influenced just by the words on
paper? Or is it also a function of meetingthe author, or just knowing the context?
Sadly, a lot of what I work on now are works from the past. But you can still find
(07:15):
out a lot about them by reading the text. Youknow, that person exists between those words.
OF (07:21):
Right. And interestingly, when you say ‘peeling the layers of the onion’,
how many times do you have to read throughuntil you find that “OK, I'm getting a sense
of it”? Or does it come even on your first read?GC: I personally tend to read the thing through
before I start.OF: Right.
GC (07:36):
Because mostly, I just don't want surprises that I didn't expect. And then,
you know, I've gone down this direction,and then right at the end, I realise they've
actually gone down the other direction. Andsometimes it’s very difficult to backtrack,
because you’ve set your mind on something,then you have to completely uproot yourself and
(07:56):
re-think everything, which is quite difficult.OF: And did you learn that from experience?
Or was that something that youinnately knew from the start?
Most of the things in the beginning that I translated were quite short. So it wasn’t
difficult to read it through. And when I wasyounger, I absolutely loved Harry Potter.
OF (08:15):
Oh right. GC
as she writes, I think she intended to go ‘right’,but the story eventually went ‘left’. And then you
can see the loose ends hanging out, hanging down,because you know the story so well. I wouldn't say
it's a shortfall, it's a natural process. Because,like identical twins, you have exactly the same
(08:41):
genetic makeup, you grew up in the same family,you still end up being different people. It's a
little bit like that. So if you know where exactlyeverything is going to go, then the surprise is
only going to be small within the text.OF: Got it. OK, well that's the process
writ large. What about, then, the minutiae?Like, can you give us an example of one of
(09:03):
your recent translations where you reallyhad to wade through something quite dense.
GC (09:08):
So the book that I just translated - that just came out - is called ‘The Legend of the
Condor Heroes’ by 金庸 [Jīn Yōng]. And it's a bookthat's been written in the 1950s and been read
by literally millions of Chinese. It was madeinto very popular TV shows in Asia as well. And
(09:30):
it's a martial arts fiction, so it's got a lot ofkung fu and fighting. Not just fighting but also
learning kung fu as well. A bit like bits of StarWars where you spend a lot of time training to be
a Jedi. But all that, written in words.OF: Right.
And it is a historical fiction as well, set in the 1200s. And with Chinese martial arts,
(09:52):
it's all rooted in Chinese classics - youknow, philosophy and Taoism, and deep stuff
like that - which no-one is particularlyfamiliar with, unless you’re a specialist.
OF (10:05):
Even in China? GC
but you wouldn’t know the content. For example,the kung fu master teaches his disciple a move.
But these are like high-level ultimate moves.So it is not like an outside ‘slap someone’
(10:27):
or ‘smack someone’ or ‘punch someone.’ It’s allabout channelling internal energy, and 气 [qì],
and things that are very, very abstract. Youcan't see it, and there's no movement. And
there was this one particular passage whichgave me headaches for days. It was the master
explaining this move verbally by quoting Chineseclassics, but he's also saying this actually out
(10:53):
loud to his student. So first and foremost,if you're translating or writing a speech,
it has to sound like speech. The individualsentence structure still has to be speech-like.
We've all seen movies where that hasn't been done very well.
GC (11:08):
No, yeah. And you're kind of like “What?” OF
Yeah, so there's that. So it's something that’s got to flow naturally. There’s speech
rhythm, and sentence structure, and length,and pauses. So that is a very particular way of
organising information. And then at the same time,we've got this talk of ‘abstract flow of energy’.
(11:31):
You know, what can I draw on that can explainthat? Is it blood circulation? Or breathing?
You know, something that I can use as a modelwhen I think about it. And then lastly, I have
these quotes from the old classics. So those havegot to sound a bit different from everything else
(11:52):
he’s saying as well. Because they are different.You know, if you quote a line from Shakespeare,
you can hear the textural difference,even though we still use all the words.
OF (12:02):
Yeah. GC
It’s the whole cadence of it, right? GC
get all of that in, within the package- or the limitation - of natural speech.
Right. I mean, that's exactly the kind of jigsaw puzzle that I wanted you to try
and un-piece. And like, how does that come?Do you have to look at the text, then you
(12:25):
have to have a bath, or go for a run, and then itsuddenly comes to you? Or do you just sit there,
and you have to try and drill it into your head?GC: So I didn't used to work like this,
but now I just put down the meaning, as muchas I could, and then probably go off and do
something else. And then come back and try toshape it. Like kneading dough. Keep kneading
(12:49):
until it forms. And keep trying this, tryingthat, trying this, trying that. You know,
cutting, pasting, turning sentences around,moving them up and down. Until you get there.
Do you use dictionaries and thesauruses, or do you try not to?
GC (13:06):
I do use dictionaries and thesauruses, I've got probably four or five open at the
same time. Yeah. You might not usethe words they suggest. But they
can prompt your mind to think of other things.OF: Right. Because which of the two is actually
most rich? You know, if you look at Shakespeare,how many new words he created. And then of course,
there's a whole culture of creating new wordsin English. But the Chinese that I know, when
(13:30):
you have two concepts in two different Chinesecharacters, and you bash them together and they
create a word, there's multiple combinations.GC: Yeah. Yeah, because the Chinese language
is modular. So you can create anything. Thatsometimes makes it quite difficult to translate.
But at the same time, you also have a freedom.Ultimately, you're working for both the author
(13:51):
as well as the reader.OF: And also yourself…
And myself as well, obviously. But it has to be understood by your particular
reader or audience. So they will help youmake a lot of decisions on what to do.
OF (14:05):
Interesting. And so when you do have a problem, do you collaborate
with other people? When you really do reacha dead-end, how do you finally solve it?
GC (14:14):
So with this novel, I'm translating with another translator, Anna Holmwood. And she
translated the first volume. In fact, she probablydealt with the biggest and toughest questions of
style and tone. So when I translate, my difficultyis understanding how she came to the system. But
(14:38):
the system is there. So I need to find thetools and use them, rather than completely
create the tools myself. But obviously, as thestory progresses, then we have new characters,
we have more powerful kung fu. I then willhave to use her tools, to create new tools,
(14:58):
to get to these new concepts.OF: Right.
Yeah. OF
Yes. OF
the audience, and you’ve got the other translator.GC: Yes. But usually translation is quite lonely
work, you know you’re just with yourself.if you're lucky, you can talk to the author
as well. So it's really nice to have a team. Thetwo of us, we can talk through problems and you
(15:20):
know, if you're really stuck, then maybe the otherperson might have a better idea. By talking about
it, it already helps.OF: Yeah.
And then eventually you will find a solution. Because you have to.
OF (15:30):
Well, I guess that leads me to my last question, in terms of the collaboration. Because
I'm guessing that this is where there could bethe biggest problems when it comes to translating,
especially - as you said - if the author is stillalive. Like, can you think of any moments where
things haven't gone so smoothly in your process?GC: I think a lot of the times it will be when
(15:52):
you're working with someone who has never hadanything translated before. So say someone
has a product, and they needed it translatedinto English. Some people might want it very,
very close to what they've written in the Chinese.But it might not work for that particular market,
because of the different ways people understandthings culturally. Uou know, how you sell things,
(16:15):
how you market things is different.OF: It's almost like an
anthropological experiment.GC: Yeah. So it’s much more cultural,
rather than language. Yes, I can give you more orless the same thing. But the result would be very
different. So with that sort of experience,sometimes you might get your collaborators
not seeing that cultural different point.This is beyond linguistics, or language. And
(16:39):
they might insist on doing it their way.But that's when it gets quite difficult,
because you don't want to do something thatyou know isn't going to work. But then you
try to explain, they might not understand.Or because it's the first time they do it,
they didn't understand, because they haven'tseen it fail. And then the next time they do it,
probably the same person won't have the sameproblem with it. Because, you know, they learnt.
(17:02):
It's something that you have to learn by beingin-between cultures, and moving around. And it's
always difficult for someone to trust a completestranger entirely with their baby, basically.
Right. GC
Right. OF
also a matter of trust. And this is somethingthat comes with experience. And failure.
(17:26):
Right. Well, thanks so much. That's fascinating.
GC (17:30):
You’re welcome. OF
[Part 2]OF: What's your favourite China-related fact?
So I said I love theatre. And some years ago, I discovered that Noël Coward wrote ‘Private
Lives’ in Shanghai.OF: Really?
At the Cathay Hotel, which is the Peace Hotel. And I think he got a cold or influenza, and he got
(17:52):
stuck. It’s just this utterly, utterly Englishupper-class play is written in Shanghai in 1930.
OF (18:04):
Wow. Question 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
GC (18:07):
No, I can't say anything in particular. But I just love the versatility of the language.
It's very, very versatile. And the allusionsit could make. Something that I was working on
quite recently is the most beautiful poetry on thesurface. But if you really know the context, it's
(18:32):
the dirtiest. dirtiest smut. It's pornographic.OF: Wow.
But it's also the most beautiful poetry, and there's not a single dirty word,
there’s nothing wrong with it…OF: From what era is that poem?
It’s 3-400 years ago. So there are different versions of it, but yeah.
OF (18:48):
Well, I should have known not to ask a translator about one
favourite phrase. As I was saying it, I knew youweren’t going to give me the answer I want here.
GC (18:53):
Yeah. OF
your favourite destination within China?GC: I went to 运城 [Yùnchéng], and it's a
beautiful place. Lots of history around. Youknow, you’ve got the Yellow River, it was a major
battlefield for hundreds of years, there is one ofthe few surviving 元 [Yuán] dynasty temples there…
OF (19:16):
Right, awesome. If you left China, what would you miss the most and what
would you miss the least?GC: Definitely Cantonese
food. I grew up in that region.OF: Yeah, but I mean, when I think
about Cantonese food, that's the food thatyou can find the most outside of China.
GC (19:30):
Yes. But most of the time, you can't get the ingredients right. So it never tastes right.
OF (19:35):
Right. GC
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
GC (19:39):
People can really spend and shop. OF
Like, especially when I was still working in an office building environment. You go out at
lunch with colleagues, and you’re just like "Whyare you looking at that? That's really expensive”.
That willingness to spend still mystifies me.Because I think, in my mind, I'm still a poor
(20:03):
student. I haven't quite left that mentality yet.OF: Right. Isn't that funny, because actually
the reputation of the Chinese in general isthat they're good savers. But you're right…
They’re good savers, and good spenders at the same time. Which is… I think that
is a philosophical question.OF: So where's your favourite
place to go eat, or drink, or just hang out?GC: Well, my go-to restaurant, if friends come
(20:27):
to town, in Shanghai would be Spice Moment on五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù], it’s a 湖南 [Húnán] restaurant.
I particularly like it because it's very difficultto get good Cantonese food here. Good in the sense
that, Cantonese food is not just about ingredientsor tastes or flavourings, but you have to fry
(20:49):
everything on a very, very, very, very hot wok.And that is a particular taste. Like, you can't
really describe it. It’s not like a flavour, saltyor sweet. But if you fry something on a very hot
wok, it tastes different from a non-hot wok.OF: And is it also a wok that has been fried
before, and has some residual taste from it?GC: No, no, no, it is not like a flavour-type
(21:13):
taste, but that is something… It's likecooking something on wood, on coal, or on gas,
or on electric. They taste different. AndI love that restaurant because even though
湖南 [Húnán] food tastes very different fromCantonese food, that taste of fire is in it.
OF (21:30):
Very good. What's the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
GC (21:35):
Well, it's not exactly a purchase. But I will say adopting and rescuing our dogs and cats.
OF (21:41):
Right. Go on then, what’s the menagerie? GC
we saw the picture, and it was very cute.And then we kept thinking about that picture,
and then eventually reached out. And the doghadn't been adopted, poor thing. He was eight
or nine years old when we adopted him. And thenwe also picked up a little yorkie on the street.
(22:02):
Oh, just wandering around? GC
She couldn't walk and she had a big tumour onher breast. No-one thought she was going to
live for many months. But now we've had her fora year and a half and she's walking very well.
Wow. GC
we picked up was a cat on a rainy day. And he wasvery, very skinny. But he's actually an enormous
(22:24):
cat. And he's got a moustache like… er…OF: Not a certain German leader?
GC (22:29):
Yes. OF
Or you can say Charlie Chaplin or Freddie Mercury. But we named him
after Magnum P.I., so he’s called ‘Mog-num’.OF: Oh ‘Mognum’, Oh god, that's good, ‘Mognum’.
Yeah. OF
photos. So we'll put that on our Instagram later.GC: Yeah, yeah.
OF (22:47):
And what's your favourite WeChat sticker? GC
the green one and the white oneOF: Oh I love those, I always use those.
GC (22:54):
Yeah, they're my favourite. Yeah. OF
that you like the most?GC: I think I like most
of them. I think there’s one where oneof them just walks off and takes a dump.
OF (23:06):
Oh, really? GC
one that was just sort of like ‘poo’.OF: OK, well if you can find
that, then send it. I’ll put that online too.GC: Yeah. I don't think I made
it up. I think it’s real.OF: OK. And what's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
GC (23:22):
I don’t, really. I mean, either some sort of 80s Hong Kong TV theme song. Or I’ll try
very miserably and impossibly to sing this Chineseband called ‘New Pants’, 新裤子 [Xīnkùzi]. But yeah,
it’s impossible. I’m very bad at karaoke.OF: And finally, what other China-related
(23:44):
media or sources of information do you rely on?GC: I quite like Sixth Tone. It’s an English
language news website. But I think it was a sitestarted to give a different perspective on China,
beyond grand politics or economics.This is much more about people.
OF (24:06):
Very good. Well, thank you so much, Gigi. That was very interesting.
GC (24:09):
You’re welcome, thank you for having me. OF
interview, which is of course the referral.GC: Oh, yes.
OF (24:14):
So if there was someone who is the most interesting person who you think I
should interview next, who would it be?GC: So I think it would be great if you
could interview Sammi Liu. She lives in Beijing,and she's the founder of an art gallery called
Tabula Rasa. She's got one project at thisgallery called ‘Almost Art’, where she works
(24:39):
with people who make art, but weren't trainedin art school. And I find that really, really
interesting. Not the usual thing you would see.OF: Well. I can't wait to meet her. Sammi, right?
GC (24:52):
Yes, Sammi, yes. OF
and go and see her. Thanks so much, Gigi.GC: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So part of the fun of recording
this series has been in seeing the randomconnections between guests. In the case of Gigi,
the answer that she gave about her best purchasein China being her rescue pets was the same as the
(25:13):
answer given by Eric Olander, the journalistfrom Episode 03. And who would have predicted
that Gigi would be connected to Michael Zee -the ‘Symmetry Breakfast’ Instagram influencer
from Episode 07 - by the fact that both of themspent time working at the Victoria & Albert Museum
in London. I didn't account for mentioningthat place twice in a series about China.
The part about Gigi interview which resonatedthe most with me, was when she said that the
(25:37):
starting point to writing is thinking aboutwho your audience is. When I heard her say
this while working on the edit of the episode,my immediate thought at this time was that she's
wrong. You should just write what you feel like,and your starting point shouldn't be the audience,
it should be finding your own authentic voicefrom within. But then the more I thought about it,
the more I tend to actually agree withher. And it inspired me to write a short
(25:59):
piece about this on LinkedIn. So in casewe're not already connected on LinkedIn,
then please look me up. As I mentioned beforein this series, LinkedIn is a very interesting
platform for content about China, because it'sthe one global social media platform which isn't
totally blocked here. So you can really seethe difference of opinions between people on
both internet ecosystems. I've been writing afew articles there recently, and the comments
(26:23):
there have been fascinating to read. As for therest of social media content for this episode,
you can see all of the images relating to today'schat as usual on Instagram on @mosaicofchina_ and
Facebook on @mosaicofchina. And for WeChat,you can add me on my profile ID: mosaicofchina
and I'll add you to the group theremyself. There's Gigi with her object;
(26:44):
her favourite sticker, of course; a photoof her cat that looks like… Charlie Chaplin;
photos of Gigi presenting the published book, andthe translating team that she worked with too; as
well as a very nice display of ‘The Legend of theCondor Heroes’ book at Kinokuniya in Singapore,
which is still my favourite bookshop in the world,I think. I think the display is still there,
(27:07):
if I'm not mistaken. So if there are any listenersin Singapore, then please send me a photo.
Mosaic of China is me OscarFuchs, artwork by Denny Newell,
and extra support from Milo de Prietoand Alston Gong. See you next time.
[Trailer]GC: It’s the most beautiful poetry on the
(00:06):
surface. But if you really know the context, it’sthe dirtiest dirtiest smut. It's pornographic.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Well, thanks very much for all the commentson last week's episode with Greg Nance. It
(00:28):
was a real honour to be part of Greg'sprocess of speaking more openly about
his past in public. And I think all of thecomments his story has received reflects
the support that he'll be sure to getin the future. Good luck to you, Greg.
Since last week, there hasn't been much changein the situation with the Coronavirus in China.
It's the beginning of March 2020, and now it'sthe world outside of China that is becoming more
(00:51):
of a source of anxiety. It looks likeany new rules coming into effect here
will be about protecting people in Chinafrom those arriving from other countries,
and potentially bringing thevirus back in. What a mess.
Today's conversation is with Gigi Chang and, likeall of the remaining episodes of the season, it
was recorded way before today's current situation.Gigi works as a literary translator, so if you're
(01:16):
someone who in any way deals with words orlanguage, then you should really enjoy this one.
[Part 1]OF: My chat today is with Gigi Chang.
Gigi is a translator, who has been living herein Shanghai for nine years now. And as you know,
we start all of these conversations with anobject. So what object did you bring in that in
(01:37):
some way exemplifies your life here in China?GC: I’ve brought my clipboard. I suddenly
discovered how useful it is when I startedtranslating, because often what I work on,
I might not have a physical book, I just geta digital document. And it's so much easier
to work on when it's been printed out. And aclipboard is perfect because it's really hard.
(02:01):
So you can stand it up on a stand, or just propit up somewhere. And it's very easy to write on. I
never thought I would be using a clipboard ever inmy life, other than at school taking attendance.
OF (02:15):
Yeah. GC
you can prop it up on a plane, you can propit up on a train. It's extremely handy.
I love it for its sheer banality. GC
Have you had the same on the whole time? GC
best thing is, you can also clip or pen onto it.OF: You know, I've never seen such a technological
advance in this room before, it's quite something…GC: I use the iPad as well. But you can't write
(02:42):
as fast as with pen and paper. And becauseyou can't flip back and forth so easily.
Right. GC
I can easily jump from page 20 to 40. But with adigital document, I can't put them side by side.
Yeah. And so I guess what you're doing there, in that instance,
is you're cross-referencing something you'vesaid before, and you want to be consistent?
GC (03:01):
Yeah. Or “Are these two passages really similar?” Or… I guess I'm at an
age that I find it much easier to read on paper.OF: I'm not sure that's an age thing, because I
think there's something tactile, you know. It'ssomething which is connected when you touch
something, you can actually take something in.GC: Yeah. And I think it is also habit as well.
You go to a lecture hall now, students are takingnotes on their computer. I type really fast,
(03:26):
but I wouldn't be able to type notes on acomputer, because it won't make any sense.
OF (03:29):
Well, how did you fall into this line, then? Like, was it always your
dream to become a translator?GC: Not really, it's really
by accident. So I grew up in Hong Kong,but I went to university in London. And
then I worked for the V&A on a Chinese project.OF: That's the ‘Victoria & Albert Museum’, right?
GC (03:49):
Yes, that's right. And at that time - it was between 2005 and 2008 - the Beijing Olympics were
coming up. So they were actually, all aroundthe world, lots of special events or projects
or displays about China. But at that time, ethnicChinese international national students tended to
either come from Hong Kong, Taiwan, orthe Chinese diasporas around the world.
(04:13):
Mainland Chinese students were still very mucha rarity. And particularly in the workplace,
you had very few Chinese speakers. And also atthat time in mainland China, there were very
few English speakers, or people that aren'tChinese who can speak Chinese. So basically,
(04:33):
I was the assistant on the project. So anyoneelse in the museum that needed help communicating
with their Chinese artists would come tome, because they're not going to my boss.
OF (04:41):
Nice. GC
started doing my first translations. Some of thempublished as well, in catalogues published by the
museum. That was the practical side. And the otherside is that I love theatre. And I was in London,
I'd seen literally hundreds of performances. AndI'd never seen a single Chinese play in English.
(05:03):
You know, you see a lot - not a lot, but yousee a fair amount - of translations from Europe,
from Russia, from South America, from Japan, frommost other parts of the world. But not China.
In terms of pure sort of population statistics,you know, one of the ancient civilizations, yet,
(05:24):
you can't name a story, you can't name a song,you can't name anything. You probably can't even
name a famous person, other than a few politicalfigures. You can't name a writer. Something didn’t
feel right about that. And so, at that point, Ialso translated a play, because I thought “Well,
(05:45):
maybe I'll put it on with my friends”.OF: And that was just voluntarily,
like you hadn't been asked…GC: No, no, no. I was going to put it
on with a friend, because we were both aspiringto be theatre producers at that point. Yeah.
And so this is how you've landed into your particular niche, right? You have been
translating cultural artefacts - includingtheatre - all this time since then, right?
GC (06:04):
Yes. OF
how do you even start? You know, you've gotthis literary piece, which is imbued with
thousands of years of Chinese culture. How doyou even go about translating that into English?
You need to know who's going to read it. Why it is being translated. This is
the same as writing anything. You know, why am Iwriting it? Once you work out that big question,
(06:26):
then it's much easier to work out all the otherbig questions. What does it feel like, reading
it? It is a difficult read? Is it difficulton purpose? Each piece of writing, there's
always something a little bit different. There's atexture to it, just like fabric. Or like food, you
know, is it crunchy or soft? And then how to bringthat sense into the reading experience as well.
(06:50):
It's like peeling an onion or going on a treasurehunt. You’re given a map, you have a roadmap, you
have some information, but you have to get to it.OF: And are you influenced just by the words on
paper? Or is it also a function of meetingthe author, or just knowing the context?
Sadly, a lot of what I work on now are works from the past. But you can still find
(07:15):
out a lot about them by reading the text. Youknow, that person exists between those words.
OF (07:21):
Right. And interestingly, when you say ‘peeling the layers of the onion’,
how many times do you have to read throughuntil you find that “OK, I'm getting a sense
of it”? Or does it come even on your first read?GC: I personally tend to read the thing through
before I start.OF: Right.
GC (07:36):
Because mostly, I just don't want surprises that I didn't expect. And then,
you know, I've gone down this direction,and then right at the end, I realise they've
actually gone down the other direction. Andsometimes it’s very difficult to backtrack,
because you’ve set your mind on something,then you have to completely uproot yourself and
(07:56):
re-think everything, which is quite difficult.OF: And did you learn that from experience?
Or was that something that youinnately knew from the start?
Most of the things in the beginning that I translated were quite short. So it wasn’t
difficult to read it through. And when I wasyounger, I absolutely loved Harry Potter.
OF (08:15):
Oh right. GC
as she writes, I think she intended to go ‘right’,but the story eventually went ‘left’. And then you
can see the loose ends hanging out, hanging down,because you know the story so well. I wouldn't say
it's a shortfall, it's a natural process. Because,like identical twins, you have exactly the same
(08:41):
genetic makeup, you grew up in the same family,you still end up being different people. It's a
little bit like that. So if you know where exactlyeverything is going to go, then the surprise is
only going to be small within the text.OF: Got it. OK, well that's the process
writ large. What about, then, the minutiae?Like, can you give us an example of one of
(09:03):
your recent translations where you reallyhad to wade through something quite dense.
GC (09:08):
So the book that I just translated - that just came out - is called ‘The Legend of the
Condor Heroes’ by 金庸 [Jīn Yōng]. And it's a bookthat's been written in the 1950s and been read
by literally millions of Chinese. It was madeinto very popular TV shows in Asia as well. And
(09:30):
it's a martial arts fiction, so it's got a lot ofkung fu and fighting. Not just fighting but also
learning kung fu as well. A bit like bits of StarWars where you spend a lot of time training to be
a Jedi. But all that, written in words.OF: Right.
And it is a historical fiction as well, set in the 1200s. And with Chinese martial arts,
(09:52):
it's all rooted in Chinese classics - youknow, philosophy and Taoism, and deep stuff
like that - which no-one is particularlyfamiliar with, unless you’re a specialist.
OF (10:05):
Even in China? GC
but you wouldn’t know the content. For example,the kung fu master teaches his disciple a move.
But these are like high-level ultimate moves.So it is not like an outside ‘slap someone’
(10:27):
or ‘smack someone’ or ‘punch someone.’ It’s allabout channelling internal energy, and 气 [qì],
and things that are very, very abstract. Youcan't see it, and there's no movement. And
there was this one particular passage whichgave me headaches for days. It was the master
explaining this move verbally by quoting Chineseclassics, but he's also saying this actually out
(10:53):
loud to his student. So first and foremost,if you're translating or writing a speech,
it has to sound like speech. The individualsentence structure still has to be speech-like.
We've all seen movies where that hasn't been done very well.
GC (11:08):
No, yeah. And you're kind of like “What?” OF
Yeah, so there's that. So it's something that’s got to flow naturally. There’s speech
rhythm, and sentence structure, and length,and pauses. So that is a very particular way of
organising information. And then at the same time,we've got this talk of ‘abstract flow of energy’.
(11:31):
You know, what can I draw on that can explainthat? Is it blood circulation? Or breathing?
You know, something that I can use as a modelwhen I think about it. And then lastly, I have
these quotes from the old classics. So those havegot to sound a bit different from everything else
(11:52):
he’s saying as well. Because they are different.You know, if you quote a line from Shakespeare,
you can hear the textural difference,even though we still use all the words.
OF (12:02):
Yeah. GC
It’s the whole cadence of it, right? GC
get all of that in, within the package- or the limitation - of natural speech.
Right. I mean, that's exactly the kind of jigsaw puzzle that I wanted you to try
and un-piece. And like, how does that come?Do you have to look at the text, then you
(12:25):
have to have a bath, or go for a run, and then itsuddenly comes to you? Or do you just sit there,
and you have to try and drill it into your head?GC: So I didn't used to work like this,
but now I just put down the meaning, as muchas I could, and then probably go off and do
something else. And then come back and try toshape it. Like kneading dough. Keep kneading
(12:49):
until it forms. And keep trying this, tryingthat, trying this, trying that. You know,
cutting, pasting, turning sentences around,moving them up and down. Until you get there.
Do you use dictionaries and thesauruses, or do you try not to?
GC (13:06):
I do use dictionaries and thesauruses, I've got probably four or five open at the
same time. Yeah. You might not usethe words they suggest. But they
can prompt your mind to think of other things.OF: Right. Because which of the two is actually
most rich? You know, if you look at Shakespeare,how many new words he created. And then of course,
there's a whole culture of creating new wordsin English. But the Chinese that I know, when
(13:30):
you have two concepts in two different Chinesecharacters, and you bash them together and they
create a word, there's multiple combinations.GC: Yeah. Yeah, because the Chinese language
is modular. So you can create anything. Thatsometimes makes it quite difficult to translate.
But at the same time, you also have a freedom.Ultimately, you're working for both the author
(13:51):
as well as the reader.OF: And also yourself…
And myself as well, obviously. But it has to be understood by your particular
reader or audience. So they will help youmake a lot of decisions on what to do.
OF (14:05):
Interesting. And so when you do have a problem, do you collaborate
with other people? When you really do reacha dead-end, how do you finally solve it?
GC (14:14):
So with this novel, I'm translating with another translator, Anna Holmwood. And she
translated the first volume. In fact, she probablydealt with the biggest and toughest questions of
style and tone. So when I translate, my difficultyis understanding how she came to the system. But
(14:38):
the system is there. So I need to find thetools and use them, rather than completely
create the tools myself. But obviously, as thestory progresses, then we have new characters,
we have more powerful kung fu. I then willhave to use her tools, to create new tools,
(14:58):
to get to these new concepts.OF: Right.
Yeah. OF
Yes. OF
the audience, and you’ve got the other translator.GC: Yes. But usually translation is quite lonely
work, you know you’re just with yourself.if you're lucky, you can talk to the author
as well. So it's really nice to have a team. Thetwo of us, we can talk through problems and you
(15:20):
know, if you're really stuck, then maybe the otherperson might have a better idea. By talking about
it, it already helps.OF: Yeah.
And then eventually you will find a solution. Because you have to.
OF (15:30):
Well, I guess that leads me to my last question, in terms of the collaboration. Because
I'm guessing that this is where there could bethe biggest problems when it comes to translating,
especially - as you said - if the author is stillalive. Like, can you think of any moments where
things haven't gone so smoothly in your process?GC: I think a lot of the times it will be when
(15:52):
you're working with someone who has never hadanything translated before. So say someone
has a product, and they needed it translatedinto English. Some people might want it very,
very close to what they've written in the Chinese.But it might not work for that particular market,
because of the different ways people understandthings culturally. Uou know, how you sell things,
(16:15):
how you market things is different.OF: It's almost like an
anthropological experiment.GC: Yeah. So it’s much more cultural,
rather than language. Yes, I can give you more orless the same thing. But the result would be very
different. So with that sort of experience,sometimes you might get your collaborators
not seeing that cultural different point.This is beyond linguistics, or language. And
(16:39):
they might insist on doing it their way.But that's when it gets quite difficult,
because you don't want to do something thatyou know isn't going to work. But then you
try to explain, they might not understand.Or because it's the first time they do it,
they didn't understand, because they haven'tseen it fail. And then the next time they do it,
probably the same person won't have the sameproblem with it. Because, you know, they learnt.
(17:02):
It's something that you have to learn by beingin-between cultures, and moving around. And it's
always difficult for someone to trust a completestranger entirely with their baby, basically.
Right. GC
Right. OF
also a matter of trust. And this is somethingthat comes with experience. And failure.
(17:26):
Right. Well, thanks so much. That's fascinating.
GC (17:30):
You’re welcome. OF
[Part 2]OF: What's your favourite China-related fact?
So I said I love theatre. And some years ago, I discovered that Noël Coward wrote ‘Private
Lives’ in Shanghai.OF: Really?
At the Cathay Hotel, which is the Peace Hotel. And I think he got a cold or influenza, and he got
(17:52):
stuck. It’s just this utterly, utterly Englishupper-class play is written in Shanghai in 1930.
OF (18:04):
Wow. Question 2, do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
GC (18:07):
No, I can't say anything in particular. But I just love the versatility of the language.
It's very, very versatile. And the allusionsit could make. Something that I was working on
quite recently is the most beautiful poetry on thesurface. But if you really know the context, it's
(18:32):
the dirtiest. dirtiest smut. It's pornographic.OF: Wow.
But it's also the most beautiful poetry, and there's not a single dirty word,
there’s nothing wrong with it…OF: From what era is that poem?
It’s 3-400 years ago. So there are different versions of it, but yeah.
OF (18:48):
Well, I should have known not to ask a translator about one
favourite phrase. As I was saying it, I knew youweren’t going to give me the answer I want here.
GC (18:53):
Yeah. OF
your favourite destination within China?GC: I went to 运城 [Yùnchéng], and it's a
beautiful place. Lots of history around. Youknow, you’ve got the Yellow River, it was a major
battlefield for hundreds of years, there is one ofthe few surviving 元 [Yuán] dynasty temples there…
OF (19:16):
Right, awesome. If you left China, what would you miss the most and what
would you miss the least?GC: Definitely Cantonese
food. I grew up in that region.OF: Yeah, but I mean, when I think
about Cantonese food, that's the food thatyou can find the most outside of China.
GC (19:30):
Yes. But most of the time, you can't get the ingredients right. So it never tastes right.
OF (19:35):
Right. GC
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
GC (19:39):
People can really spend and shop. OF
Like, especially when I was still working in an office building environment. You go out at
lunch with colleagues, and you’re just like "Whyare you looking at that? That's really expensive”.
That willingness to spend still mystifies me.Because I think, in my mind, I'm still a poor
(20:03):
student. I haven't quite left that mentality yet.OF: Right. Isn't that funny, because actually
the reputation of the Chinese in general isthat they're good savers. But you're right…
They’re good savers, and good spenders at the same time. Which is… I think that
is a philosophical question.OF: So where's your favourite
place to go eat, or drink, or just hang out?GC: Well, my go-to restaurant, if friends come
(20:27):
to town, in Shanghai would be Spice Moment on五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù], it’s a 湖南 [Húnán] restaurant.
I particularly like it because it's very difficultto get good Cantonese food here. Good in the sense
that, Cantonese food is not just about ingredientsor tastes or flavourings, but you have to fry
(20:49):
everything on a very, very, very, very hot wok.And that is a particular taste. Like, you can't
really describe it. It’s not like a flavour, saltyor sweet. But if you fry something on a very hot
wok, it tastes different from a non-hot wok.OF: And is it also a wok that has been fried
before, and has some residual taste from it?GC: No, no, no, it is not like a flavour-type
(21:13):
taste, but that is something… It's likecooking something on wood, on coal, or on gas,
or on electric. They taste different. AndI love that restaurant because even though
湖南 [Húnán] food tastes very different fromCantonese food, that taste of fire is in it.
OF (21:30):
Very good. What's the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
GC (21:35):
Well, it's not exactly a purchase. But I will say adopting and rescuing our dogs and cats.
OF (21:41):
Right. Go on then, what’s the menagerie? GC
we saw the picture, and it was very cute.And then we kept thinking about that picture,
and then eventually reached out. And the doghadn't been adopted, poor thing. He was eight
or nine years old when we adopted him. And thenwe also picked up a little yorkie on the street.
(22:02):
Oh, just wandering around? GC
She couldn't walk and she had a big tumour onher breast. No-one thought she was going to
live for many months. But now we've had her fora year and a half and she's walking very well.
Wow. GC
we picked up was a cat on a rainy day. And he wasvery, very skinny. But he's actually an enormous
(22:24):
cat. And he's got a moustache like… er…OF: Not a certain German leader?
GC (22:29):
Yes. OF
Or you can say Charlie Chaplin or Freddie Mercury. But we named him
after Magnum P.I., so he’s called ‘Mog-num’.OF: Oh ‘Mognum’, Oh god, that's good, ‘Mognum’.
Yeah. OF
photos. So we'll put that on our Instagram later.GC: Yeah, yeah.
OF (22:47):
And what's your favourite WeChat sticker? GC
the green one and the white oneOF: Oh I love those, I always use those.
GC (22:54):
Yeah, they're my favourite. Yeah. OF
that you like the most?GC: I think I like most
of them. I think there’s one where oneof them just walks off and takes a dump.
OF (23:06):
Oh, really? GC
one that was just sort of like ‘poo’.OF: OK, well if you can find
that, then send it. I’ll put that online too.GC: Yeah. I don't think I made
it up. I think it’s real.OF: OK. And what's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
GC (23:22):
I don’t, really. I mean, either some sort of 80s Hong Kong TV theme song. Or I’ll try
very miserably and impossibly to sing this Chineseband called ‘New Pants’, 新裤子 [Xīnkùzi]. But yeah,
it’s impossible. I’m very bad at karaoke.OF: And finally, what other China-related
(23:44):
media or sources of information do you rely on?GC: I quite like Sixth Tone. It’s an English
language news website. But I think it was a sitestarted to give a different perspective on China,
beyond grand politics or economics.This is much more about people.
OF (24:06):
Very good. Well, thank you so much, Gigi. That was very interesting.
GC (24:09):
You’re welcome, thank you for having me. OF
interview, which is of course the referral.GC: Oh, yes.
OF (24:14):
So if there was someone who is the most interesting person who you think I
should interview next, who would it be?GC: So I think it would be great if you
could interview Sammi Liu. She lives in Beijing,and she's the founder of an art gallery called
Tabula Rasa. She's got one project at thisgallery called ‘Almost Art’, where she works
(24:39):
with people who make art, but weren't trainedin art school. And I find that really, really
interesting. Not the usual thing you would see.OF: Well. I can't wait to meet her. Sammi, right?
GC (24:52):
Yes, Sammi, yes. OF
and go and see her. Thanks so much, Gigi.GC: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So part of the fun of recording
this series has been in seeing the randomconnections between guests. In the case of Gigi,
the answer that she gave about her best purchasein China being her rescue pets was the same as the
(25:13):
answer given by Eric Olander, the journalistfrom Episode 03. And who would have predicted
that Gigi would be connected to Michael Zee -the ‘Symmetry Breakfast’ Instagram influencer
from Episode 07 - by the fact that both of themspent time working at the Victoria & Albert Museum
in London. I didn't account for mentioningthat place twice in a series about China.
The part about Gigi interview which resonatedthe most with me, was when she said that the
(25:37):
starting point to writing is thinking aboutwho your audience is. When I heard her say
this while working on the edit of the episode,my immediate thought at this time was that she's
wrong. You should just write what you feel like,and your starting point shouldn't be the audience,
it should be finding your own authentic voicefrom within. But then the more I thought about it,
the more I tend to actually agree withher. And it inspired me to write a short
(25:59):
piece about this on LinkedIn. So in casewe're not already connected on LinkedIn,
then please look me up. As I mentioned beforein this series, LinkedIn is a very interesting
platform for content about China, because it'sthe one global social media platform which isn't
totally blocked here. So you can really seethe difference of opinions between people on
both internet ecosystems. I've been writing afew articles there recently, and the comments
(26:23):
there have been fascinating to read. As for therest of social media content for this episode,
you can see all of the images relating to today'schat as usual on Instagram on @mosaicofchina_ and
Facebook on @mosaicofchina. And for WeChat,you can add me on my profile ID: mosaicofchina
and I'll add you to the group theremyself. There's Gigi with her object;
(26:44):
her favourite sticker, of course; a photoof her cat that looks like… Charlie Chaplin;
photos of Gigi presenting the published book, andthe translating team that she worked with too; as
well as a very nice display of ‘The Legend of theCondor Heroes’ book at Kinokuniya in Singapore,
which is still my favourite bookshop in the world,I think. I think the display is still there,
(27:07):
if I'm not mistaken. So if there are any listenersin Singapore, then please send me a photo.
Mosaic of China is me OscarFuchs, artwork by Denny Newell,
and extra support from Milo de Prietoand Alston Gong. See you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!