September 17, 2019 • 35 mins
“Failure is three meals a day”. You may have heard other tech entrepreneurs talk about how they embrace the idea of failure. But it has never sounded as genuine as when uttered by today’s guest, Gina Li. In our discussion, Gina tells the story of growing up on the Silk Road, embarking on a career in Hip-Hop, and eventually stumbling into the world of innovation and product design. If Gina defines her life as failure served up like three meals a day, then… I’ll have what she’s having. In our discussion we talk about the essence of product design, and how it is allowing China to rediscover its roots as a world leader in technology and innovation. We also discuss two examples of the products that Gina’s company, Beach IoT, has reimagined: the digital telescope and… the cotton candy machine, of course. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:52 - Part 1 21:11 - Part 2 32:05 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]GL: Failure is like
(00:04):
three meals per day. And especially for what wedo, it’s more innovative and challenging. So a
lot of times, when we come up with a conceptor an idea, we don't know how to build it.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:26):
I really love that quote from my guest today,“failure is three meals a day”. I've seen a bunch
of tech entrepreneur startup types talk about howthey embrace the idea of failure, but it never
really found a genuine to me until I heard thisphrase coming out of the lips of my guest today,
Gina Lee. Now what can I say about Gina? Let'sput it this way, there aren't many people who I
(00:46):
would allow to talk about their background forfive minutes straight on this podcast. But it
was impossible to interrupt Gina as she tellsher story from growing up on the Silk Road, to
getting into hip hop dancing, to finally stumblinginto the world of product design. If Gina defines
her life as failure served up like three mealsa day, then please… I'll have what she's having.
(01:07):
In our discussion, we talked about the essenceof product design, and how it's allowing China
to rediscover its roots as a world leader ininnovation. We also discuss two examples of
the products that Gina’s company - Beach IoT - hasreimagined. One of them is the digital telescope,
and the other one is, of course, the cotton candymachine. There, you knew I was going to say that,
(01:28):
didn't you? In fact, even if I did say it, Iknow how strange it will sound for some people
to hear the words cotton candy spoken with aBritish accent. To everyone who doesn't know,
in the UK we call it ‘candy floss’. So letme start today's podcast with an apology
to all British listeners. I'm sorry, I was toopolite, and I did not stand up for the dignity
of British candy floss. I promise I've beenpunishing myself ever since this recording.
(01:52):
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Gina Lee.
GL (01:54):
Hi, Oscar. OF
you are the CEO of Beach IoT, right?GL: Yes.
OF (01:59):
So very quickly, what is Beach IoT? GL
solutions for hardware and softwarecombined, to build smart business,
which we can go through later.OF: OK. And the first question
would be, what object did you bring?GL: Alright, so these objects I brought,
(02:20):
usually they are like twins, they always gotogether. So this is a journal notebook, and this
is a book. Actually, so wherever I go - itdoesn't matter if it's pocket size or a big
size - I always have either a book with me, ora notebook. Usually they're together, because
reading and writing are companions with me. Sobecause I don't usually do things with friends,
(02:46):
I enjoy time more by myself. Most of the time,outside work, I'm alone. So I read and write,
I record the things I'm thinking in my mind. I'mlike, making conversation with myself throughout
this. And I think writing down what I'm thinkingevery day as a diary - I won't call it a diary,
because it's not daily - but I do like constantlyrecording what I'm thinking. Almost 20 years,
(03:10):
I would say.OF: Wow.
GL (03:11):
Yeah, I kept that habit very well. OF
have now, piled up?GL: I have a couple
at my hometown. And in Shanghainow I have like… more than ten,
I think. I didn't really count them. Some ofthem are already, like, buried in suitcases
somewhere else. Those from 15 years ago, youknow, when you're just 20. I just don't have
(03:33):
the courage to read them yet.OF: Yeah. And you said your
hometown. So where is ‘hometown’ for you?GL: I was born in the northwest of China,
which you would call the Silk Road. Andit's 甘肃 [Gānsù] Province. So actually it’s
a city right in the middle of the Silk Road.OF: And so what was the story that brought
you from 甘肃 [Gānsù] all the way to Shanghai?GL: Yes, I was kind of… I would say one of
(03:55):
the best students in my hometown. I'm always theone, people really hate, I always know everything,
I'm always the smartest. And then yes, throughthat, I got the chance to go to almost any school
I want. And I chose the Shanghai University ofFinance and Economics. So the reason is actually
quite straightforward, because there was a reporton the average income of the bachelor degree
(04:21):
graduates in China. And my school has always beenthe top one, because of course people were working
for the financial industry, they get paid a lot.So I kind of gave up on the chance to go and be a
scientific and really smart person, but choosethe school that meant I could get paid well.
So I got to the school, I thought I will be thefabulous lady, the white collars going to the
(04:48):
tall buildings, high heels. Then I realised it’snot really like that. And I started to think about
something else to do at school, so I startedto gather with the community of dancing and
hip hop. Like surprisingly, I started to get intothe underground culture. And after I graduated,
I had a long negotiation with my parents,and I became a professional dancer for a
couple of years. Which was very lucky, becauseback then it wasn't that popular. So I got to
(05:14):
the top level. So I was actually working inthe entertainment industry for a short time,
until I felt like maybe that's the time to change.Then I decided to pick up the major I started at
school, so I went to do some financial jobs as aconsultant, FOREX trading, and go into that type
of thing. And surprisingly - not surprisingly -not even two years later, it was proved to me:
(05:36):
“No, it doesn't work for me”. And then I startedlooking for job, I wanted to do marketing and
branding, I worked for some governmentcompany. And then I worked for an agency,
until I decided to establish my own agency, likea marketing event production company, like eight
years ago. And then after a couple of cases ofseeing something fail, I wanted to do something.
(06:00):
I thought at the back of my head, what I alwayswanted to do is build something by myself.
And then I met my partner in Thailand. Sowe actually met each other just because we
were staying in the same resort, the samebungalow. And then I was having breakfast.
While this guy's just getting into, like,vegetarianism, healthy eating, like - how
(06:24):
to say - detoxing. And I was just “I'm overseas.This is cheap. That's amazing”. So I had like four
or five dishes. So we're sitting like how we’resitting now, on the table. I'm just eating, like,
vacuuming the food into my mouth. And while hejust like, scoop by scoop, watching me finish.
He was like “Wow, impressive”. I was like “Thankyou”. And then he was like “You speak English”. I
(06:46):
said “Yeah”. And he actually has an Asian face,because his grandparents are like Chinese too.
So we're like, we don't know each other, we werenot sure whether we spoke English, but we started
getting into a conversation. And then because hisbackground is as a product designer, and someone
(07:07):
who has worked in Germany for 10 years. So he hadinsight into product building. Also how he sees
the Chinese product industry, it gives me a lotof inspiration, and also it kind of hurt, with
some of the really critical points he highlighted.Like, for example, he was saying, back in the old
days, China was the best at building stuff in theworld. Everyone was talking about all the silk,
(07:33):
all the China, ceramics… Everything we did was thebest in the world for building. And then, like,
for example there are some things each country’sstill proud of, that they still kept. Like
Italians, they still kept the old ways of doinga lot of food, wine, vinegar even. And the French
too. But it’s such a pity that we didn’t keepanything anymore, and have pride in ourselves.
(07:59):
Even though there's still some really great peoplestill doing that, that's not how we have been
showing ourselves to the world. And we're notfamous for building fantastic stuff anymore. He
just asked me a question “What has happened? And Iwas just like, stumbled there. Like I asked myself
“Yeah, exactly. What has happened?” We mightas well just pick up from this point and do
(08:22):
something. Then people will not just focus on whathas happened - “You’re not good anymore” - but
actually everyone can look at it and say "Itdoesn't matter, you will be good again”. So that's
the point where I start to share my, kind of like,potential feeling on what I wanted to do. I told
him as an agency doing marketing and branding,the biggest failure is when you had all this
(08:47):
vision - the idea, how to position the product,and the business - and then when you saw the
actual product you’re like “That's not quite howit could be.” Like, you feel bad about promoting
that. So that's where, in the back in my head,I wanted to build something. So first of all,
of course, you're promoting something, you knowit's good quality, you want to qualify everything
(09:11):
around that. But I wasn't a designer, Ihad nothing like… I don't know anything
about product building. And it just happenedthat I met him. Then we started this company.
OF (09:20):
Right. And so obviously, you saw that in him, with his product design experience.
GL (09:26):
Yes. OF
do you think he saw in you, at that breakfast?GL: Actually, when he was saying “Let's start
to do something together,” he was being reallyarrogant. He just thought, if I can speak good
English, I could help him do business in an easierway. So, pretty much, he just thought I could be a
translator, and let's say an Operation Manager.Until like, throughout the rest of the time in
(09:52):
Thailand, sometimes he saw me, like at 9 or 10pm,we're sitting there chatting, I could just pull
out my phone and started adding to Excel onit, if I have to. He said, that is something
makes him feels like "Oh, this is somethingabout this girl, she gets things done. Like,
without hesitation”. So that's how simple it was,he wasn't even putting any expectation that I have
(10:18):
an understanding of how this business shouldgo. So it took time - about how I'm learning,
how I always give him ideas - and I think becausethat openness has opened up the opportunity,
actually our business has turned from himbeing the dominant lead of the whole thing,
(10:39):
and slowly pivot and transfer, toright now, I’m actually leading it.
OF (10:43):
OK, so let's go back to the beach. So of course, now I'm thinking about the
beach. That's why you called the company that.GL: Yes. Actually literally because it was founded
on the beach, that’s why we called it Beach.OF: So in a nutshell then,
tell me about what it is that you do.GL: When we first started the company, it was
six years ago. That's when product designwas just rising in the Chinese industry.
(11:07):
So people started to pay a little bit moreattention on how products should be designed.
Before then, they were just distributing the stuff that was coming in from outside of China?
GL (11:16):
Yes. So there were mainly doing the manufacturing, and following the guidelines,
and just like ‘produce, produce’, I wouldn’teven call it ‘build,’ it was just producing
and manufacturing. And then, I think that was thetime when Apple was dominating the whole product
design world, and they promoted design so well.So everyone believed that a good-looking design
can make a product so different. That's how I wasbelieving too. But actually, by getting into this
(11:42):
industry, and by working with my partner Andrewand also people around him, I started to find out,
design is actually not about looking, it's ascience. It's like a mixed knowledge science.
How this should be designed, mixed with howpeople interact with it, like ergonomics,
and manufacturing, mechanical engineering,materials, there are a lot of things behind
(12:06):
that. So it's not that we sketch or draw a design,then give it to the factory, then try to make it
manufactured. You should think the other way.Why do you want to build this product? How do you
want to use it? Where are you going to sell it?It’s actually orientated by the business model,
and that's where I think I started to slowly pickup: “Oh, the design versus business model is like
(12:31):
a clutch”. When you connect with it, you realise aproduct is just a tangible object, that’s showing
the business model (12:41):
where the target audience is, the philosophy of how you want to use
it, and everything behind it. So we started fromthe design, and slowly slowly, we started hiring
engineers, and people from different parts of theproduct-related world, like software engineers,
electronic, mechanic, like prototype engineers.So we started to build things on our own, because
(13:04):
I think, when we did design, that's where I hadthe biggest respect for my colleagues. They don't
only think about how it looks, and what materialthey want to apply. Always they first ask "Oh, so
where are we going to sell it to? How is going tobe used? What do you want to achieve out of this
product?” So these are the questions usually wethought business people will ask. But actually no.
(13:27):
Like, everyone has a business-oriented mind.My partner told me designers are designers,
because it's business orientated. Otherwise,we're artists. Like, “Yeah, that makes sense”.
OF (13:36):
So then, thinking about that then, how do you decide what it is
that you want to design, as a company?GL: Like, for example, what we're doing
right now is using robotic technology to builda cotton candy machine. So, like, there are
completely opposite two sides. Because cottoncandy, what we think about it is that it’s a fun,
(13:56):
puffy grandpa in the theme park. But actually,you know, it takes a lot of effort, energy,
and consistency. And like, hygiene, cleaning,there's a lot of things behind that. So that is
something where it makes so much sense if it canbe done by a robotic arm. So we designed a simple
(14:17):
robotic arm that can be applied on the machinethat is a vending machine, doing cotton candy
by customisation. We actually designed it in a waythat, by technology, the canister is used from the
top, not the bottom. So the image combined giveseveryone a feeling like “Wow, that's so cool”.
But the ‘cool’ behind it is how technology couldbe applied to something fun. And what we did is,
(14:41):
we put all the sugars, all the mechanical partson top, and we designed the shape like a cloud.
And we actually applied the name and called it“Cloud Candy”. So instead of the sugar coming
from the bottom shooting up, we're going fromthe top down. So in that case, the sugar - or the
fluffy thing - doesn't fly all around. it makes itclean, easy to collect, and makes the robotic arm
(15:05):
easier to move around to make different shapes.OF: Right, different shapes. So you mentioned,
like, personalised. How many shapes can it make?GL: We currently right now have five shapes.
There's the flower, there's a heart, there'sa Christmas trees, there’s the egg shape,
acorn… It’s actually just by applying themovement. The interesting thing is actually,
(15:28):
when we first did that, we thought makingcotton candy was easy, right? Just spin and
move around. But there's no record about how youmake cotton candy, it's all about feeling. It's
like a muscle memory experience. So that hasbeen the biggest challenge for us, like “Huhh,
so how are we going to tell a robotic arm, byprogramming it, to make cotton candy?” Because
(15:52):
we don't know all the angles, or the mathematics.Then it actually required our mechanical engineer,
he is Canadian, and he graduated with, like aMaster's degree research on carbon fibre. He
was just joking “I was meant to be working forthe satellite industry. Now I'm making cotton
candy in China". So he has to learn for, like,weeks to become the master of cotton candy. Then
(16:18):
he actually needed to work manually, by movingthe robotic arm, and to record and understand
how it works, and then report back. So it’s just asimple thing like that. This is why I want to say,
like, technology can never run on its own. Itcan do something, make it exciting. But the real
(16:39):
connection is how we understand it, somethingwe cannot even extract exactly. But how we can
connect that with robotic technology and can buildsomething to help us make a better experience.
OK, well there you go, you have your first advert now, on this podcast.
GL (16:55):
Thank you. OF
about another example of a success. But maybebefore I do, like, has there been any notable
failures? Or any things that have been a surpriseor a challenge that you weren't expecting?
Failure is like three meals per day. And especially for what we do, it’s more innovative
and it’s challenging the traditional ways ofbuilding a product. So a lot of times, when we
(17:20):
come up with a concept or an idea, we don't knowhow to build it. And we got challenged by a client
“If you don't know how to build it, how canyou make it work?” I said “That is why we have
the multi-skilled set of people sit together.To figure out how to build it”. So one of the
examples is actually one of the… I think it’s myfavourite product so far. It took the longest time
(17:44):
and has involved the most failure, and has mostdifficulty. So actually a year and a half ago,
we launched a digital telescope in CES LasVegas, we actually brought it to Las Vegas.
So we spent years, and we figured out how theexperience should be, we built an app, we tried
(18:05):
to get the algorithm. But actually, the biggestfailure - or let's say the most frustrating thing
about this thing - is actually the optics.You know, the funny thing about this, the
optics of the telescope hasn’t been changed forhundreds of years. That's how this was invented,
it’s just pure optics with a lens. And then,the larger the telescope, you need a more
(18:31):
precise manufacturing process. And the failurepercentage is way higher than we could have
thought of. And because of the innovative wayof controlling the focus point and optic image,
we actually redesigned the whole optics. Andjust achieving that, and getting an image,
(18:52):
getting everything sharp so that we can look atthe object as how we expected, took more than a
year. But yeah, glad after so many years. Andnow we're actually in the production line. And
we're actually delivering the first product intoAustralia and North America by the end of this
(19:13):
year. And then the goal is like, you can put onein the backyard, you don't need to suffer from the
cold weather, you sit on the couch, and you canactually mirror all the images on the TV. And by
just searching, the stars are alive. So that’s it.OF: Wow. You don't really think that you need it,
until you hear about it. It's one ofthose products like… actually yeah,
(19:34):
I can imagine with my nephew, pointing at thestar, and then me saying “I've got no idea,
Uncle Oscar is an idiot”. But now I can fakeit. And I guess your example is also just
another great way that, you know, you see Chinaas a whole moving up the value chain, you know.
Yeah. OF
China still think of it mainly as a manufacturingbase, but with the capability of inventing things,
(19:58):
and also harnessing that network when it comesto distribution within China, I think that's
just a killer combination, what you've got there.GL: Yeah. And also, I think with current… like
the future technology, let's say… it's already onthe fast speed train. We need to get on the train,
we need to get used to the speed, we need toadapt to what is going to happen. And then,
by doing that, everyone needs some insights. Andthe great thing about Chinese technology products,
(20:24):
and how we're rising up the trend is, wecan actually provide a lot of insights,
and cases, and demos in a different way, becausethey are so self-responsible for technologies,
they adapt so well. So I'm always hopingthat, just by the technology itself,
let's maybe - despite all theother facts - this is something
(20:46):
pushing human society forward. That'sjust part of science, how it works.
Yeah. So that's why I'm loving what I'm doing.OF: Great. And if we get nice, acorn-shaped cotton
candy out of it, then everyone's happy.GL: Yeah, of course.
OF (21:01):
Well, thank you so much, Gina. GL Thank you for your time too.
We're now going to move on to Part 2, which are the 10 questions.
GL (21:07):
OK. Oh, the fast ones? OF
[Part 2]OF: Are you ready?
Yes let's do it. OF
your favourite China related-fact.GL: The Chinese are always good at
surviving.OF: OK.
Yeah, because we have a long history of 5000 years of change and wars, everything.
(21:27):
But I think Chinese do deeply inside know that itdoesn't matter what horrible things are happening,
whatever change is out there, the best way is toadapt, to keep yourself like alive. Survive first,
and then you figure it out later.OF: So do you have a favourite
word - like a new word, or a phrase thatyou like to teach foreigners - in Chinese?
I would say - I think, that's the only thing, I never found how to present it in English, like,
(21:52):
if you can teach me that wouldbe perfect - it’s 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle].
OF (21:54):
Oh 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle], OK. GL
like, in which part you can present it. Becausethat's a phrase that is nothing about the result,
nothing about anything you do, the purpose isjust about the effort, and the time you put in.
And it's including so much of, like, caringand love. It’s like relieving. And sometimes
(22:15):
people just say 辛苦了，加油 [xīnkǔle, jiāyóu]and that's like, a lot of power. And I never
found what English word can replace that.OF: I think I would probably translate it
best as “Good work”.GL: “Good work”?
“Good work today”. Like, it's usually at the end of the day, or at the end of a project, right?
GL (22:29):
OK. OF
was a success, but you're just acknowledging theother’s effort, it’s probably, yeah “Good work”.
What about when you experience the whole day as being a failure the whole time?
OF (22:39):
Yeah. “It's been a tough day, but thanks for your work”.
GL (22:43):
OK. OF
that's the 苦 [kǔ] part of 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle], right?GL: Yeah, you can just apply it to anything. If
someone’s dedicated to doing something for awhile, and it doesn't matter if they're happy,
they're achieved something, they're frustrated,you can always say 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle] and it's full
of power, right?OF: Yeah. What is
your favourite destination within China?GL: My hometown, for sure. The Gobi Desert, with
(23:05):
mountains. And also because it has been involvedwith so much history, from thousands of years ago.
We actually have the Han Dynasty Great Wallthere. So it's actually from 2000 years ago,
but it wasn't built of stone, it was actuallyjust built of mud. Because it's so rare to rain,
it's still there. Like, it's just howlittle the rain every year drops on it,
(23:27):
so it’s still there, out in the wild,you can actually just go visit without
any problem buying tickets. No, you just driveand you go out to the wild, and you see what is
left there from 2000 years ago. Yeah.OF: And no crowds of tourists, or…?
I think lately it started to be a little bit crowded in certain seasons,
(23:47):
people started to find out “Oh, that'sactually great place”. But not as I remember
when I was young, there was just no-one around.OF: Right. If you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?GL: Let's take Shanghai as an example. We're
actually free to do a lot of things here, becausepeople are so tolerant, and they put up with
different types of things. Even though theydon't agree, maybe they don't do the same, but
(24:12):
they won't just jump into your zone and tell younot to do that. I think that has become something
special in big cities in China. It's a little bitcold, but also the same time it's more free. What
I will miss the least is also related to thispart, it’s the crowded packs of people. Like, it
does bother me sometimes. I do feel people are notaware enough that they have like a certain space,
(24:41):
leave it to other people. So I think that's it.OF: Is there anything that still surprises
you about modern life in China?GL: How old people can be adaptive to
technology. That is surprising. Like, my grandma,she's 88, she she the iPhone XS Max. My God. She
(25:02):
just wanted the largest screen, and she wantedto have WeChat. And she doesn't like to type,
WeChat has audio messages, and the stickers. Themost important thing: she can collect red packets.
So we have a family group, that every day, we justsend something like, you know, a 10 块 [kuài] or
5 块 [kuài] red packet, and she's happy. Like,that is just somehow the simplest connection
(25:28):
with everyone. And then I found out, like, a lotof people like me, if their grandparents live
back in their hometown, they do a similar thing.OF: Where's your favourite place to go to eat or
drink or hang out?GL: In Shanghai?
OF (25:40):
Yeah. GL
a shopping mall based in downtown Shanghai. Ithink from the third, fourth, fifth floor, there
are certain different bars or a coffee shops thathave terraces. And then also, they have, like,
supermarkets and a movie theatre. So I just liketo put myself somewhere in the crowd, but still a
(26:00):
little bit quiet, where it has multi-functions.OF: Very nice. What is the best or the worst
purchase that you've recently made in China?GL: Like, I think the best purchase is
a headphone. It's like, the AppleAirPod headphone. And I keep telling
people that it's such a simple thing, butactually it saves a lot of people's lives,
(26:20):
it saved my life. That’s it.OF: It saved your life?
GL (26:22):
Yeah, because you know how many hours I have to talk on the phone. And if I have
to hold the phone on my ear, I get cramp. Iget cramp all the time. So that's basically,
actually the most expensive purchaseitem for the last few years I did.
OF (26:39):
Right. GL
Yeah. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? GL
as a super rock star. Like, every time Ilook at it, I just want to do the same.
Awesome. GL
And in what context would you send this to someone?
GL (26:57):
It's like a 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle]. OF
Any context. If I want to cheer people up, and then bring back some energy, I just do that.
OF (27:05):
Very good. GL
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? GL
animation serial called 喜羊羊 [Xǐyángyáng],it’s like happy sheep everywhere.
Oh, I have seen it, yeah. GL
every time I will sing that.OF: Is it easy? That
sounds easy.GL: Yeah, it's very
easy. It's like a kids song. It's like, they’resinging about cabbage and, like, vegetables and
(27:29):
carrots and everything. So I just love thoselyrics. it’s like “I'm singing about all the
vegetables together, because I’m a sheep”.OF: And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you use?GL: One is called ‘36氪 [36Kr]’, it’s like a
technology app that they build content for,specifically for people working in the high
(27:53):
tech industry. And another one is called ‘得到[Dédào]’, it’s like a podcast, but not only a
like a speaking-type podcast, it's more likea reading book. So all the people who have
programmes on that have a very famous book, thattell people about a certain, like, philosophy of
working, or different types of knowledge. And theyjust, like, record it by reading it. So for me,
(28:15):
sometimes it’s… When I bike to work, I listen toit. And then, like, certain parts - because they
have actually a PDF referred to that - I can justmark out notes. So those are the two things that I
generally use as information resources.OF: Well, you've obviously got this
natural curiosity, which just comes out.And the way that you absorb information,
(28:39):
the way that you are, you know, voraciouslyreading and listening, to me this is the reason
why you are where you are, I think.GL: Thank you. Curiosity… Actually,
the good thing is, like, a lot of peoplesometimes ask me, like “Do you consider
yourself super smart or something?” For me,it’s just pure curiosity. I just want to know.
(29:01):
Well, I should also say thank you to the team at IPWS.
GL (29:04):
Oh, yeah. OF
you to Amanda, and everyone at IPWS. That'swhere you and I first met, at their Summit.
Yeah, exactly. OF
a prize there, what was the prize that you won?GL: So it was the Women Leadership Award of the
year, as Innovator of the year.OF: Right.
So I was really excited to get the award, and I wasn't expecting it. I think
(29:30):
last year I got nominated as well, but Ididn't get to be a finalist. So this year,
I got an email saying I got in again, and I wasa finalist. I was like “Oh, wow”. So that’s,
for me, it's already an achievement.I couldn't even wait for the Summit,
I was like “I'm just gonna post it on my WeChatMoments”. And that's it, because I didn't
(29:53):
think I could ever get it. Until, like, I wentthrough the jury process and talked to everyone,
and then went to the summit. It was like “Youknow what, it's not about receiving the award,
it’s all of you guys”. Like, all the fantasticwomen, all the people who were talking. And then
it reminded me, like, at some point, insteadof just being curious in books and things,
(30:15):
I need to be more social. That is actually mypersonal goal right now, I need to pull myself
out and actually talk more to people. BecauseI actually like to talk. But sometimes when you
have limited time and attention, you just needto re-plan it. So I really appreciate that the
IPWS has the annual Summit and the Award. I got toknow you, I got to know a lot of fantastic women.
(30:40):
And we actually get connected very well, we hangout. So it's like a life-turning event for me.
OF (30:48):
Great. GL
Thank you again, the last thing I'll ask you is, if there was anyone else in China who you'd
recommend that I interview next, who would it be?GL: Yeah, I would definitely recommend my boxing
coach. For me, he is the best boxing coach / bestfriend / best fitness coach, and a great man and
(31:09):
also best friend. We have known each other for avery long time, snd throughout boxing, throughout
things we do together, we share and learn a lot.And his name is Chris Xiong. He has won a lot of
awards as best coach of the year actually.OF: Wow.
GL (31:26):
Yeah. OF
is that the same as ‘Bear’, is it?GL: Yes.
OF (31:29):
Oh nice. GL
you can tell how strong he is by his name.OF: Oh yes, he was destined to be a boxer.
GL (31:38):
Yes. And his father is - actually, I will say back then - was one of the best boxers,
and one of the best boxing promotersof China. He dedicated his life,
and a passed on all the skills to Chris aswell. So I think that is a huge destiny, like,
related to what he needs to do.OF: Well, thank you so much,
(32:00):
Gina. It was a pleasure.GL: No problem, thank you. I enjoyed it.
[Outro]OF: So here's a message for any
Chinese parents listening. If your son or daughtertells you that they want to be a hip-hop dancer,
then just let them. Look how it turned out forGina. One thing you also need to know about her,
which didn't come up in our conversation, wasthat she taught herself English while living
in Shanghai. I've heard this from other peopletoo, but what's unique about Gina's method is
(32:25):
that she only spoke with English speakers fora couple of months. In fact, she only looked
at English-language menus. And bit by bit wordby word, she brought us up up to this standard,
without ever leaving China. In fact, her tripto Thailand - where she met her Co-Founder of
Beach IoT - was actually her first ever tripoverseas. So next time you hear me moan about
(32:45):
how difficult it is to learn Chinese in Shanghai,can you please remind me of this? On this subject,
I translated 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle] as 'good work', butI know it doesn't completely imbue the meaning
of the phrase. So if anyone out there has a bettersuggestion for a translation, then please tell me.
I forgot to explain what IPWS stands for, it’sthe International Professional Women's Society.
(33:06):
All of the images are up on social media,just go to @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
or @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or connectwith me on ID: mosaicofchina on WeChat,
and I'll add you to the group there.This week, there is Gina and her objects;
there's her favourite WeChat sticker ofcourse, that's Super Mario rocking out;
and there's also a photo of the cartooncharacter 喜羊羊 [Xǐyángyáng]. If you're in China,
(33:31):
you've definitely seen this character. The reasonwhy I was so excited to get this recommendation
for a KTV song is because I need to learn easysongs in Mandarin. So this was a great one for me,
it’s all about fruit and vegetables, I canjust about manage it. So watch out if you're
going out for an evening of karaoke withme anytime soon. Gina's favourite place to
visit was her hometown. So, Gina grew up in thecity of 金昌 [Jīnchāng] in 甘肃 [Gānsù] Province,
(33:55):
and I posted a photo of the Han Great Wall nearby.I learned from the internet that this was built
between 200BC and 200AD. The parts of the wallthat are usually visited by tourists as a day
trip from Beijing are from between the 15th and16th centuries, so it's a big contrast. If anyone
(34:16):
listening has plans to go, then please tag mein a post so I can grind my teeth in jealousy.
I love making connections between the episodes,and Gina's was no exception. She mentioned the
restaurants with a terrace on the high floors ofIAPM, the fancy-schmancy mall. So that's three
interviews in a row where there's a connectionwith terraces as people's favourite places to
(34:37):
hang out. This is karma, since I'm alwaysmoaning about how the weather in Shanghai
is totally inappropriate for terraces. But I'mobviously in a minority of one on that one. The
other obvious connection was with Eric, the ChinaAfrica correspondent from Episode 03 of Season 01,
since his object was also a notebook. But thenicest connection - for me at least - was with
(34:59):
last week's episode with Jorge, who talked aboutburping. This is a great example of what Gina was
talking about, how people in big cities inChina overlook the bad behaviour of others,
which affords the individual a lot ofpersonal freedom. So I've been trying to use
this as a mantra to improve my own terribleimpatience. And for everyone else like me,
(35:19):
please try doing it too. Don't try focusing onthe bad behaviour of particular individuals,
but pan out and allow yourself tosee the equanimity of everyone else.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, editingby Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny Newell,
and China support from AlstonGong. I will see you next week.
[Trailer]GL: Failure is like
(00:04):
three meals per day. And especially for what wedo, it’s more innovative and challenging. So a
lot of times, when we come up with a conceptor an idea, we don't know how to build it.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:26):
I really love that quote from my guest today,“failure is three meals a day”. I've seen a bunch
of tech entrepreneur startup types talk about howthey embrace the idea of failure, but it never
really found a genuine to me until I heard thisphrase coming out of the lips of my guest today,
Gina Lee. Now what can I say about Gina? Let'sput it this way, there aren't many people who I
(00:46):
would allow to talk about their background forfive minutes straight on this podcast. But it
was impossible to interrupt Gina as she tellsher story from growing up on the Silk Road, to
getting into hip hop dancing, to finally stumblinginto the world of product design. If Gina defines
her life as failure served up like three mealsa day, then please… I'll have what she's having.
(01:07):
In our discussion, we talked about the essenceof product design, and how it's allowing China
to rediscover its roots as a world leader ininnovation. We also discuss two examples of
the products that Gina’s company - Beach IoT - hasreimagined. One of them is the digital telescope,
and the other one is, of course, the cotton candymachine. There, you knew I was going to say that,
(01:28):
didn't you? In fact, even if I did say it, Iknow how strange it will sound for some people
to hear the words cotton candy spoken with aBritish accent. To everyone who doesn't know,
in the UK we call it ‘candy floss’. So letme start today's podcast with an apology
to all British listeners. I'm sorry, I was toopolite, and I did not stand up for the dignity
of British candy floss. I promise I've beenpunishing myself ever since this recording.
(01:52):
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Gina Lee.
GL (01:54):
Hi, Oscar. OF
you are the CEO of Beach IoT, right?GL: Yes.
OF (01:59):
So very quickly, what is Beach IoT? GL
solutions for hardware and softwarecombined, to build smart business,
which we can go through later.OF: OK. And the first question
would be, what object did you bring?GL: Alright, so these objects I brought,
(02:20):
usually they are like twins, they always gotogether. So this is a journal notebook, and this
is a book. Actually, so wherever I go - itdoesn't matter if it's pocket size or a big
size - I always have either a book with me, ora notebook. Usually they're together, because
reading and writing are companions with me. Sobecause I don't usually do things with friends,
(02:46):
I enjoy time more by myself. Most of the time,outside work, I'm alone. So I read and write,
I record the things I'm thinking in my mind. I'mlike, making conversation with myself throughout
this. And I think writing down what I'm thinkingevery day as a diary - I won't call it a diary,
because it's not daily - but I do like constantlyrecording what I'm thinking. Almost 20 years,
(03:10):
I would say.OF: Wow.
GL (03:11):
Yeah, I kept that habit very well. OF
have now, piled up?GL: I have a couple
at my hometown. And in Shanghainow I have like… more than ten,
I think. I didn't really count them. Some ofthem are already, like, buried in suitcases
somewhere else. Those from 15 years ago, youknow, when you're just 20. I just don't have
(03:33):
the courage to read them yet.OF: Yeah. And you said your
hometown. So where is ‘hometown’ for you?GL: I was born in the northwest of China,
which you would call the Silk Road. Andit's 甘肃 [Gānsù] Province. So actually it’s
a city right in the middle of the Silk Road.OF: And so what was the story that brought
you from 甘肃 [Gānsù] all the way to Shanghai?GL: Yes, I was kind of… I would say one of
(03:55):
the best students in my hometown. I'm always theone, people really hate, I always know everything,
I'm always the smartest. And then yes, throughthat, I got the chance to go to almost any school
I want. And I chose the Shanghai University ofFinance and Economics. So the reason is actually
quite straightforward, because there was a reporton the average income of the bachelor degree
(04:21):
graduates in China. And my school has always beenthe top one, because of course people were working
for the financial industry, they get paid a lot.So I kind of gave up on the chance to go and be a
scientific and really smart person, but choosethe school that meant I could get paid well.
So I got to the school, I thought I will be thefabulous lady, the white collars going to the
(04:48):
tall buildings, high heels. Then I realised it’snot really like that. And I started to think about
something else to do at school, so I startedto gather with the community of dancing and
hip hop. Like surprisingly, I started to get intothe underground culture. And after I graduated,
I had a long negotiation with my parents,and I became a professional dancer for a
couple of years. Which was very lucky, becauseback then it wasn't that popular. So I got to
(05:14):
the top level. So I was actually working inthe entertainment industry for a short time,
until I felt like maybe that's the time to change.Then I decided to pick up the major I started at
school, so I went to do some financial jobs as aconsultant, FOREX trading, and go into that type
of thing. And surprisingly - not surprisingly -not even two years later, it was proved to me:
(05:36):
“No, it doesn't work for me”. And then I startedlooking for job, I wanted to do marketing and
branding, I worked for some governmentcompany. And then I worked for an agency,
until I decided to establish my own agency, likea marketing event production company, like eight
years ago. And then after a couple of cases ofseeing something fail, I wanted to do something.
(06:00):
I thought at the back of my head, what I alwayswanted to do is build something by myself.
And then I met my partner in Thailand. Sowe actually met each other just because we
were staying in the same resort, the samebungalow. And then I was having breakfast.
While this guy's just getting into, like,vegetarianism, healthy eating, like - how
(06:24):
to say - detoxing. And I was just “I'm overseas.This is cheap. That's amazing”. So I had like four
or five dishes. So we're sitting like how we’resitting now, on the table. I'm just eating, like,
vacuuming the food into my mouth. And while hejust like, scoop by scoop, watching me finish.
He was like “Wow, impressive”. I was like “Thankyou”. And then he was like “You speak English”. I
(06:46):
said “Yeah”. And he actually has an Asian face,because his grandparents are like Chinese too.
So we're like, we don't know each other, we werenot sure whether we spoke English, but we started
getting into a conversation. And then because hisbackground is as a product designer, and someone
(07:07):
who has worked in Germany for 10 years. So he hadinsight into product building. Also how he sees
the Chinese product industry, it gives me a lotof inspiration, and also it kind of hurt, with
some of the really critical points he highlighted.Like, for example, he was saying, back in the old
days, China was the best at building stuff in theworld. Everyone was talking about all the silk,
(07:33):
all the China, ceramics… Everything we did was thebest in the world for building. And then, like,
for example there are some things each country’sstill proud of, that they still kept. Like
Italians, they still kept the old ways of doinga lot of food, wine, vinegar even. And the French
too. But it’s such a pity that we didn’t keepanything anymore, and have pride in ourselves.
(07:59):
Even though there's still some really great peoplestill doing that, that's not how we have been
showing ourselves to the world. And we're notfamous for building fantastic stuff anymore. He
just asked me a question “What has happened? And Iwas just like, stumbled there. Like I asked myself
“Yeah, exactly. What has happened?” We mightas well just pick up from this point and do
(08:22):
something. Then people will not just focus on whathas happened - “You’re not good anymore” - but
actually everyone can look at it and say "Itdoesn't matter, you will be good again”. So that's
the point where I start to share my, kind of like,potential feeling on what I wanted to do. I told
him as an agency doing marketing and branding,the biggest failure is when you had all this
(08:47):
vision - the idea, how to position the product,and the business - and then when you saw the
actual product you’re like “That's not quite howit could be.” Like, you feel bad about promoting
that. So that's where, in the back in my head,I wanted to build something. So first of all,
of course, you're promoting something, you knowit's good quality, you want to qualify everything
(09:11):
around that. But I wasn't a designer, Ihad nothing like… I don't know anything
about product building. And it just happenedthat I met him. Then we started this company.
OF (09:20):
Right. And so obviously, you saw that in him, with his product design experience.
GL (09:26):
Yes. OF
do you think he saw in you, at that breakfast?GL: Actually, when he was saying “Let's start
to do something together,” he was being reallyarrogant. He just thought, if I can speak good
English, I could help him do business in an easierway. So, pretty much, he just thought I could be a
translator, and let's say an Operation Manager.Until like, throughout the rest of the time in
(09:52):
Thailand, sometimes he saw me, like at 9 or 10pm,we're sitting there chatting, I could just pull
out my phone and started adding to Excel onit, if I have to. He said, that is something
makes him feels like "Oh, this is somethingabout this girl, she gets things done. Like,
without hesitation”. So that's how simple it was,he wasn't even putting any expectation that I have
(10:18):
an understanding of how this business shouldgo. So it took time - about how I'm learning,
how I always give him ideas - and I think becausethat openness has opened up the opportunity,
actually our business has turned from himbeing the dominant lead of the whole thing,
(10:39):
and slowly pivot and transfer, toright now, I’m actually leading it.
OF (10:43):
OK, so let's go back to the beach. So of course, now I'm thinking about the
beach. That's why you called the company that.GL: Yes. Actually literally because it was founded
on the beach, that’s why we called it Beach.OF: So in a nutshell then,
tell me about what it is that you do.GL: When we first started the company, it was
six years ago. That's when product designwas just rising in the Chinese industry.
(11:07):
So people started to pay a little bit moreattention on how products should be designed.
Before then, they were just distributing the stuff that was coming in from outside of China?
GL (11:16):
Yes. So there were mainly doing the manufacturing, and following the guidelines,
and just like ‘produce, produce’, I wouldn’teven call it ‘build,’ it was just producing
and manufacturing. And then, I think that was thetime when Apple was dominating the whole product
design world, and they promoted design so well.So everyone believed that a good-looking design
can make a product so different. That's how I wasbelieving too. But actually, by getting into this
(11:42):
industry, and by working with my partner Andrewand also people around him, I started to find out,
design is actually not about looking, it's ascience. It's like a mixed knowledge science.
How this should be designed, mixed with howpeople interact with it, like ergonomics,
and manufacturing, mechanical engineering,materials, there are a lot of things behind
(12:06):
that. So it's not that we sketch or draw a design,then give it to the factory, then try to make it
manufactured. You should think the other way.Why do you want to build this product? How do you
want to use it? Where are you going to sell it?It’s actually orientated by the business model,
and that's where I think I started to slowly pickup: “Oh, the design versus business model is like
(12:31):
a clutch”. When you connect with it, you realise aproduct is just a tangible object, that’s showing
the business model (12:41):
where the target audience is, the philosophy of how you want to use
it, and everything behind it. So we started fromthe design, and slowly slowly, we started hiring
engineers, and people from different parts of theproduct-related world, like software engineers,
electronic, mechanic, like prototype engineers.So we started to build things on our own, because
(13:04):
I think, when we did design, that's where I hadthe biggest respect for my colleagues. They don't
only think about how it looks, and what materialthey want to apply. Always they first ask "Oh, so
where are we going to sell it to? How is going tobe used? What do you want to achieve out of this
product?” So these are the questions usually wethought business people will ask. But actually no.
(13:27):
Like, everyone has a business-oriented mind.My partner told me designers are designers,
because it's business orientated. Otherwise,we're artists. Like, “Yeah, that makes sense”.
OF (13:36):
So then, thinking about that then, how do you decide what it is
that you want to design, as a company?GL: Like, for example, what we're doing
right now is using robotic technology to builda cotton candy machine. So, like, there are
completely opposite two sides. Because cottoncandy, what we think about it is that it’s a fun,
(13:56):
puffy grandpa in the theme park. But actually,you know, it takes a lot of effort, energy,
and consistency. And like, hygiene, cleaning,there's a lot of things behind that. So that is
something where it makes so much sense if it canbe done by a robotic arm. So we designed a simple
(14:17):
robotic arm that can be applied on the machinethat is a vending machine, doing cotton candy
by customisation. We actually designed it in a waythat, by technology, the canister is used from the
top, not the bottom. So the image combined giveseveryone a feeling like “Wow, that's so cool”.
But the ‘cool’ behind it is how technology couldbe applied to something fun. And what we did is,
(14:41):
we put all the sugars, all the mechanical partson top, and we designed the shape like a cloud.
And we actually applied the name and called it“Cloud Candy”. So instead of the sugar coming
from the bottom shooting up, we're going fromthe top down. So in that case, the sugar - or the
fluffy thing - doesn't fly all around. it makes itclean, easy to collect, and makes the robotic arm
(15:05):
easier to move around to make different shapes.OF: Right, different shapes. So you mentioned,
like, personalised. How many shapes can it make?GL: We currently right now have five shapes.
There's the flower, there's a heart, there'sa Christmas trees, there’s the egg shape,
acorn… It’s actually just by applying themovement. The interesting thing is actually,
(15:28):
when we first did that, we thought makingcotton candy was easy, right? Just spin and
move around. But there's no record about how youmake cotton candy, it's all about feeling. It's
like a muscle memory experience. So that hasbeen the biggest challenge for us, like “Huhh,
so how are we going to tell a robotic arm, byprogramming it, to make cotton candy?” Because
(15:52):
we don't know all the angles, or the mathematics.Then it actually required our mechanical engineer,
he is Canadian, and he graduated with, like aMaster's degree research on carbon fibre. He
was just joking “I was meant to be working forthe satellite industry. Now I'm making cotton
candy in China". So he has to learn for, like,weeks to become the master of cotton candy. Then
(16:18):
he actually needed to work manually, by movingthe robotic arm, and to record and understand
how it works, and then report back. So it’s just asimple thing like that. This is why I want to say,
like, technology can never run on its own. Itcan do something, make it exciting. But the real
(16:39):
connection is how we understand it, somethingwe cannot even extract exactly. But how we can
connect that with robotic technology and can buildsomething to help us make a better experience.
OK, well there you go, you have your first advert now, on this podcast.
GL (16:55):
Thank you. OF
about another example of a success. But maybebefore I do, like, has there been any notable
failures? Or any things that have been a surpriseor a challenge that you weren't expecting?
Failure is like three meals per day. And especially for what we do, it’s more innovative
and it’s challenging the traditional ways ofbuilding a product. So a lot of times, when we
(17:20):
come up with a concept or an idea, we don't knowhow to build it. And we got challenged by a client
“If you don't know how to build it, how canyou make it work?” I said “That is why we have
the multi-skilled set of people sit together.To figure out how to build it”. So one of the
examples is actually one of the… I think it’s myfavourite product so far. It took the longest time
(17:44):
and has involved the most failure, and has mostdifficulty. So actually a year and a half ago,
we launched a digital telescope in CES LasVegas, we actually brought it to Las Vegas.
So we spent years, and we figured out how theexperience should be, we built an app, we tried
(18:05):
to get the algorithm. But actually, the biggestfailure - or let's say the most frustrating thing
about this thing - is actually the optics.You know, the funny thing about this, the
optics of the telescope hasn’t been changed forhundreds of years. That's how this was invented,
it’s just pure optics with a lens. And then,the larger the telescope, you need a more
(18:31):
precise manufacturing process. And the failurepercentage is way higher than we could have
thought of. And because of the innovative wayof controlling the focus point and optic image,
we actually redesigned the whole optics. Andjust achieving that, and getting an image,
(18:52):
getting everything sharp so that we can look atthe object as how we expected, took more than a
year. But yeah, glad after so many years. Andnow we're actually in the production line. And
we're actually delivering the first product intoAustralia and North America by the end of this
(19:13):
year. And then the goal is like, you can put onein the backyard, you don't need to suffer from the
cold weather, you sit on the couch, and you canactually mirror all the images on the TV. And by
just searching, the stars are alive. So that’s it.OF: Wow. You don't really think that you need it,
until you hear about it. It's one ofthose products like… actually yeah,
(19:34):
I can imagine with my nephew, pointing at thestar, and then me saying “I've got no idea,
Uncle Oscar is an idiot”. But now I can fakeit. And I guess your example is also just
another great way that, you know, you see Chinaas a whole moving up the value chain, you know.
Yeah. OF
China still think of it mainly as a manufacturingbase, but with the capability of inventing things,
(19:58):
and also harnessing that network when it comesto distribution within China, I think that's
just a killer combination, what you've got there.GL: Yeah. And also, I think with current… like
the future technology, let's say… it's already onthe fast speed train. We need to get on the train,
we need to get used to the speed, we need toadapt to what is going to happen. And then,
by doing that, everyone needs some insights. Andthe great thing about Chinese technology products,
(20:24):
and how we're rising up the trend is, wecan actually provide a lot of insights,
and cases, and demos in a different way, becausethey are so self-responsible for technologies,
they adapt so well. So I'm always hopingthat, just by the technology itself,
let's maybe - despite all theother facts - this is something
(20:46):
pushing human society forward. That'sjust part of science, how it works.
Yeah. So that's why I'm loving what I'm doing.OF: Great. And if we get nice, acorn-shaped cotton
candy out of it, then everyone's happy.GL: Yeah, of course.
OF (21:01):
Well, thank you so much, Gina. GL Thank you for your time too.
We're now going to move on to Part 2, which are the 10 questions.
GL (21:07):
OK. Oh, the fast ones? OF
[Part 2]OF: Are you ready?
Yes let's do it. OF
your favourite China related-fact.GL: The Chinese are always good at
surviving.OF: OK.
Yeah, because we have a long history of 5000 years of change and wars, everything.
(21:27):
But I think Chinese do deeply inside know that itdoesn't matter what horrible things are happening,
whatever change is out there, the best way is toadapt, to keep yourself like alive. Survive first,
and then you figure it out later.OF: So do you have a favourite
word - like a new word, or a phrase thatyou like to teach foreigners - in Chinese?
I would say - I think, that's the only thing, I never found how to present it in English, like,
(21:52):
if you can teach me that wouldbe perfect - it’s 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle].
OF (21:54):
Oh 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle], OK. GL
like, in which part you can present it. Becausethat's a phrase that is nothing about the result,
nothing about anything you do, the purpose isjust about the effort, and the time you put in.
And it's including so much of, like, caringand love. It’s like relieving. And sometimes
(22:15):
people just say 辛苦了，加油 [xīnkǔle, jiāyóu]and that's like, a lot of power. And I never
found what English word can replace that.OF: I think I would probably translate it
best as “Good work”.GL: “Good work”?
“Good work today”. Like, it's usually at the end of the day, or at the end of a project, right?
GL (22:29):
OK. OF
was a success, but you're just acknowledging theother’s effort, it’s probably, yeah “Good work”.
What about when you experience the whole day as being a failure the whole time?
OF (22:39):
Yeah. “It's been a tough day, but thanks for your work”.
GL (22:43):
OK. OF
that's the 苦 [kǔ] part of 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle], right?GL: Yeah, you can just apply it to anything. If
someone’s dedicated to doing something for awhile, and it doesn't matter if they're happy,
they're achieved something, they're frustrated,you can always say 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle] and it's full
of power, right?OF: Yeah. What is
your favourite destination within China?GL: My hometown, for sure. The Gobi Desert, with
(23:05):
mountains. And also because it has been involvedwith so much history, from thousands of years ago.
We actually have the Han Dynasty Great Wallthere. So it's actually from 2000 years ago,
but it wasn't built of stone, it was actuallyjust built of mud. Because it's so rare to rain,
it's still there. Like, it's just howlittle the rain every year drops on it,
(23:27):
so it’s still there, out in the wild,you can actually just go visit without
any problem buying tickets. No, you just driveand you go out to the wild, and you see what is
left there from 2000 years ago. Yeah.OF: And no crowds of tourists, or…?
I think lately it started to be a little bit crowded in certain seasons,
(23:47):
people started to find out “Oh, that'sactually great place”. But not as I remember
when I was young, there was just no-one around.OF: Right. If you left China, what would you miss
the most, and what would you miss the least?GL: Let's take Shanghai as an example. We're
actually free to do a lot of things here, becausepeople are so tolerant, and they put up with
different types of things. Even though theydon't agree, maybe they don't do the same, but
(24:12):
they won't just jump into your zone and tell younot to do that. I think that has become something
special in big cities in China. It's a little bitcold, but also the same time it's more free. What
I will miss the least is also related to thispart, it’s the crowded packs of people. Like, it
does bother me sometimes. I do feel people are notaware enough that they have like a certain space,
(24:41):
leave it to other people. So I think that's it.OF: Is there anything that still surprises
you about modern life in China?GL: How old people can be adaptive to
technology. That is surprising. Like, my grandma,she's 88, she she the iPhone XS Max. My God. She
(25:02):
just wanted the largest screen, and she wantedto have WeChat. And she doesn't like to type,
WeChat has audio messages, and the stickers. Themost important thing: she can collect red packets.
So we have a family group, that every day, we justsend something like, you know, a 10 块 [kuài] or
5 块 [kuài] red packet, and she's happy. Like,that is just somehow the simplest connection
(25:28):
with everyone. And then I found out, like, a lotof people like me, if their grandparents live
back in their hometown, they do a similar thing.OF: Where's your favourite place to go to eat or
drink or hang out?GL: In Shanghai?
OF (25:40):
Yeah. GL
a shopping mall based in downtown Shanghai. Ithink from the third, fourth, fifth floor, there
are certain different bars or a coffee shops thathave terraces. And then also, they have, like,
supermarkets and a movie theatre. So I just liketo put myself somewhere in the crowd, but still a
(26:00):
little bit quiet, where it has multi-functions.OF: Very nice. What is the best or the worst
purchase that you've recently made in China?GL: Like, I think the best purchase is
a headphone. It's like, the AppleAirPod headphone. And I keep telling
people that it's such a simple thing, butactually it saves a lot of people's lives,
(26:20):
it saved my life. That’s it.OF: It saved your life?
GL (26:22):
Yeah, because you know how many hours I have to talk on the phone. And if I have
to hold the phone on my ear, I get cramp. Iget cramp all the time. So that's basically,
actually the most expensive purchaseitem for the last few years I did.
OF (26:39):
Right. GL
Yeah. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? GL
as a super rock star. Like, every time Ilook at it, I just want to do the same.
Awesome. GL
And in what context would you send this to someone?
GL (26:57):
It's like a 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle]. OF
Any context. If I want to cheer people up, and then bring back some energy, I just do that.
OF (27:05):
Very good. GL
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? GL
animation serial called 喜羊羊 [Xǐyángyáng],it’s like happy sheep everywhere.
Oh, I have seen it, yeah. GL
every time I will sing that.OF: Is it easy? That
sounds easy.GL: Yeah, it's very
easy. It's like a kids song. It's like, they’resinging about cabbage and, like, vegetables and
(27:29):
carrots and everything. So I just love thoselyrics. it’s like “I'm singing about all the
vegetables together, because I’m a sheep”.OF: And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you use?GL: One is called ‘36氪 [36Kr]’, it’s like a
technology app that they build content for,specifically for people working in the high
(27:53):
tech industry. And another one is called ‘得到[Dédào]’, it’s like a podcast, but not only a
like a speaking-type podcast, it's more likea reading book. So all the people who have
programmes on that have a very famous book, thattell people about a certain, like, philosophy of
working, or different types of knowledge. And theyjust, like, record it by reading it. So for me,
(28:15):
sometimes it’s… When I bike to work, I listen toit. And then, like, certain parts - because they
have actually a PDF referred to that - I can justmark out notes. So those are the two things that I
generally use as information resources.OF: Well, you've obviously got this
natural curiosity, which just comes out.And the way that you absorb information,
(28:39):
the way that you are, you know, voraciouslyreading and listening, to me this is the reason
why you are where you are, I think.GL: Thank you. Curiosity… Actually,
the good thing is, like, a lot of peoplesometimes ask me, like “Do you consider
yourself super smart or something?” For me,it’s just pure curiosity. I just want to know.
(29:01):
Well, I should also say thank you to the team at IPWS.
GL (29:04):
Oh, yeah. OF
you to Amanda, and everyone at IPWS. That'swhere you and I first met, at their Summit.
Yeah, exactly. OF
a prize there, what was the prize that you won?GL: So it was the Women Leadership Award of the
year, as Innovator of the year.OF: Right.
So I was really excited to get the award, and I wasn't expecting it. I think
(29:30):
last year I got nominated as well, but Ididn't get to be a finalist. So this year,
I got an email saying I got in again, and I wasa finalist. I was like “Oh, wow”. So that’s,
for me, it's already an achievement.I couldn't even wait for the Summit,
I was like “I'm just gonna post it on my WeChatMoments”. And that's it, because I didn't
(29:53):
think I could ever get it. Until, like, I wentthrough the jury process and talked to everyone,
and then went to the summit. It was like “Youknow what, it's not about receiving the award,
it’s all of you guys”. Like, all the fantasticwomen, all the people who were talking. And then
it reminded me, like, at some point, insteadof just being curious in books and things,
(30:15):
I need to be more social. That is actually mypersonal goal right now, I need to pull myself
out and actually talk more to people. BecauseI actually like to talk. But sometimes when you
have limited time and attention, you just needto re-plan it. So I really appreciate that the
IPWS has the annual Summit and the Award. I got toknow you, I got to know a lot of fantastic women.
(30:40):
And we actually get connected very well, we hangout. So it's like a life-turning event for me.
OF (30:48):
Great. GL
Thank you again, the last thing I'll ask you is, if there was anyone else in China who you'd
recommend that I interview next, who would it be?GL: Yeah, I would definitely recommend my boxing
coach. For me, he is the best boxing coach / bestfriend / best fitness coach, and a great man and
(31:09):
also best friend. We have known each other for avery long time, snd throughout boxing, throughout
things we do together, we share and learn a lot.And his name is Chris Xiong. He has won a lot of
awards as best coach of the year actually.OF: Wow.
GL (31:26):
Yeah. OF
is that the same as ‘Bear’, is it?GL: Yes.
OF (31:29):
Oh nice. GL
you can tell how strong he is by his name.OF: Oh yes, he was destined to be a boxer.
GL (31:38):
Yes. And his father is - actually, I will say back then - was one of the best boxers,
and one of the best boxing promotersof China. He dedicated his life,
and a passed on all the skills to Chris aswell. So I think that is a huge destiny, like,
related to what he needs to do.OF: Well, thank you so much,
(32:00):
Gina. It was a pleasure.GL: No problem, thank you. I enjoyed it.
[Outro]OF: So here's a message for any
Chinese parents listening. If your son or daughtertells you that they want to be a hip-hop dancer,
then just let them. Look how it turned out forGina. One thing you also need to know about her,
which didn't come up in our conversation, wasthat she taught herself English while living
in Shanghai. I've heard this from other peopletoo, but what's unique about Gina's method is
(32:25):
that she only spoke with English speakers fora couple of months. In fact, she only looked
at English-language menus. And bit by bit wordby word, she brought us up up to this standard,
without ever leaving China. In fact, her tripto Thailand - where she met her Co-Founder of
Beach IoT - was actually her first ever tripoverseas. So next time you hear me moan about
(32:45):
how difficult it is to learn Chinese in Shanghai,can you please remind me of this? On this subject,
I translated 辛苦了 [xīnkǔle] as 'good work', butI know it doesn't completely imbue the meaning
of the phrase. So if anyone out there has a bettersuggestion for a translation, then please tell me.
I forgot to explain what IPWS stands for, it’sthe International Professional Women's Society.
(33:06):
All of the images are up on social media,just go to @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
or @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or connectwith me on ID: mosaicofchina on WeChat,
and I'll add you to the group there.This week, there is Gina and her objects;
there's her favourite WeChat sticker ofcourse, that's Super Mario rocking out;
and there's also a photo of the cartooncharacter 喜羊羊 [Xǐyángyáng]. If you're in China,
(33:31):
you've definitely seen this character. The reasonwhy I was so excited to get this recommendation
for a KTV song is because I need to learn easysongs in Mandarin. So this was a great one for me,
it’s all about fruit and vegetables, I canjust about manage it. So watch out if you're
going out for an evening of karaoke withme anytime soon. Gina's favourite place to
visit was her hometown. So, Gina grew up in thecity of 金昌 [Jīnchāng] in 甘肃 [Gānsù] Province,
(33:55):
and I posted a photo of the Han Great Wall nearby.I learned from the internet that this was built
between 200BC and 200AD. The parts of the wallthat are usually visited by tourists as a day
trip from Beijing are from between the 15th and16th centuries, so it's a big contrast. If anyone
(34:16):
listening has plans to go, then please tag mein a post so I can grind my teeth in jealousy.
I love making connections between the episodes,and Gina's was no exception. She mentioned the
restaurants with a terrace on the high floors ofIAPM, the fancy-schmancy mall. So that's three
interviews in a row where there's a connectionwith terraces as people's favourite places to
(34:37):
hang out. This is karma, since I'm alwaysmoaning about how the weather in Shanghai
is totally inappropriate for terraces. But I'mobviously in a minority of one on that one. The
other obvious connection was with Eric, the ChinaAfrica correspondent from Episode 03 of Season 01,
since his object was also a notebook. But thenicest connection - for me at least - was with
(34:59):
last week's episode with Jorge, who talked aboutburping. This is a great example of what Gina was
talking about, how people in big cities inChina overlook the bad behaviour of others,
which affords the individual a lot ofpersonal freedom. So I've been trying to use
this as a mantra to improve my own terribleimpatience. And for everyone else like me,
(35:19):
please try doing it too. Don't try focusing onthe bad behaviour of particular individuals,
but pan out and allow yourself tosee the equanimity of everyone else.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, editingby Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny Newell,
and China support from AlstonGong. I will see you next week.
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