The Prolific Playwright (Nick YU, Artistic Director, Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre)

This week’s guest is the award-winning Chinese playwright Nick Yu, 喻荣军, who juggles his work as a writer alongside his role as Creative Director at the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre. In our conversation, we cover Nick’s two contrasting identities: the sophisticated denizen of the Shanghai arts scene, and the son of a village teacher from the heart of the Chinese countryside. Nick is no stranger to controversy, and is famous in the Chinese theatre scene for pushing the limits of what can be put on the stage. So we also discuss his creative process, and the way in which he nurtures his imagination without overstepping the the boundaries of the China culture policy. So this episode should be a must-listen for any creators or artists in china who are struggling with temptation of self-censorship. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:12 - Part 1 18:01 - Part 2 28:44 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
[Trailer]NY: I can speak the Shanghai local language.

OF (00:03):
Right. NY
don't understand. That’s not my fault, it’stheir fault.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Well, there was a lot of feedback after lastweek's episode with Yael, who spoke about

(00:26):
her very personal connection to the storyof the Jewish refugees in Shanghai. It was
actually the first time I was stopped in thestreet in Shanghai by someone who said that
they enjoyed the episode, so thanks againto Yael. I do have one correction, in the
intro to the episode I misspoke when I saidthat LinkedIn is the one uncensored social
media platform in China. What I should havesaid is, it's the one social media platform

(00:50):
where China and the outside world do easilycoexist, which is already more than the other
platforms like Facebook and Twitter. But Iwas reminded that some media that's posted
on there is, in fact, still censored. So Ishouldn't have used that particular word when
describing it.
What this word does do is link in very nicelywith today's conversation, which is with the

(01:10):
Chinese playwright, Nick Yu. That's the namehe goes by in English, Chinese listeners will
know him as 喻荣军 [Yù Róngjūn]. Nickhas won multiple awards, he's also a director
at the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre, andis someone who has courted some controversy
with his work - you’ll hear him talk aboutone particular story about a hero who becomes

(01:30):
a fascist - but he publishes his work in away that very much sticks within the boundaries
of the China Culture Policy. So for any creators,or artists out there who are struggling with
the temptation of self censorship, I reallyhope that you can be inspired by how Nick
addresses this issue.
I was first introduced to Nick by a mutualfriend, Dave Bennett, so a big thanks to Dave,

(01:52):
who is genuinely one of the most kind, andgenerous people I know. Makes me sick. And
a final note, Nick is someone who is verywell known, he’s done a lot of interviews
in the past, so I really tried to approachour conversation from a new angle. So I hope
that people who know about him will enjoythis recording, as well as people who are
learning about him for the first time.
[Part 1]OF: So thank you very much for coming, Nick.

NY (02:16):
Thank you. OF
Róngjūn]. I tried to say your name, butI will not say that again in this interview,
we’ll just stick to Nick.NY: Yeah.

OF (02:27):
So thanks very much for coming, the first question I ask everyone is, what object did
you bring that in some way shows what youdo here in China. So what did you bring?

NY (02:37):
I brought a book. So that has eight of my plays inside. That, for me, is really important.
I have lots of plays published - by magazines,by publishing houses - but this book is the
first time. So I really think seriously forthat thing. So I chose eight plays from almost

(02:59):
20 plays at that time.OF: How many plays have you written now?
About… more than 70 plays. OF
Yeah, I really enjoy writing. I write so many play scripts, also so fast. Because
I have two different jobs. Most of my jobis in managing the theatre. So that is a really

(03:24):
busy and crazy job. But in the middle of thenight, in the time I can control, I start
to write plays. But because I have not toomuch time to write plays, I must write them
very quickly. Sometimes I write a play injust four nights, I must finish it.

OF (03:44):
Does that include, also, the editing? Like, do you then go back and rewrite? Or
is it pretty much finished once you've writtenit once?

NY (03:51):
Most of my plays, once and it will be finished. But when the play is in rehearsal,
and I talk with the team, with the director,most plays will be polished more than 10 times.
When other people - the director, and otherartists, the actors - they give me advice,

(04:14):
I can polish my play. That is… For me, Ithink that is really good for me.

OF (04:18):
Because you can actually use those people around you to workshop things. You're not
just sitting in your cupboard by yourself.NY: Yeah. I say compared to many playwrights,
I'm a really lucky guy. I work in the theatre,I know the actors. For our theatre we have
more than 170 actors. And each year we domore than 60 plays. So I have the resource.

(04:43):
I love this theatre. So we are the only NationalTheatre in Shanghai. We were founded in Shanghai,
we service the Shanghai audience. We havethe local audience, and also have audiences
from around Shanghai, sometimes international.OF: It's very handy for me, because I actually
live on the same road as your theatre.NY: This is a really good road in Shanghai.

(05:06):
Yes. NY
in this road, it was so quiet. Not so manythings happening. But because of our theatre
in this road, we bring a lot of young peoplehere, since the 2000s. So now lots of people
come here.OF: That's right. So what came first, then?

(05:30):
So were you first a playwright or were youfirst in the theatre?

NY (05:33):
I was born in a small village in 安徽 [Ānhuī]. That’s a very small village,
we only have eight families in this village.OF: Eight?
Yeah, really small. But when I was young, my father always brought me to watch the traditional
Chinese opera, the local opera, 吕剧 [Lǚjù].I think because of that, I felt interested

(05:56):
in the stage. But when I went to universityin Shanghai, my original training was in rehabilitation.
I should have been a doctor in the hospital.And I never had a chance to go to the theatre
again. Just in the third year in the university,my classmates bought some tickets, and they

(06:21):
give me free tickets. So I had the chanceto go to the theatre, that was the first time
to go to the theatre. And this first playwas Othello. But when I watched the play,
I was always watching the audience more thanwatching the actors on the stage. I was thinking
“Why does the audience feel so interestedon the stage?” I think the audience is the

(06:48):
first thing to attract me, and then the stage.But when I graduated from school, I found
a job in a hospital in Guangzhou. I reallyliked the work in the hospital, but it's too
difficult for me in Guangzhou because I cannotspeak Cantonese. So I thought, because I went

(07:12):
to watch the play one year before, "Why notgo find a job in the theatre?” So I went
to the theatre, to talk with the artisticdirector, and he really was surprised: “You
can be a doctor, but you quit your job andcame to the theatre? Why?” I told him “I
like theatre”.OF: What was that job?

(07:35):
That job is Publicity Manager. Because I worked for publicity, I had the chance to
know why the theatre chose this play; whythe Artistic Directer chose this Director;
and when the play was put on a stage, howthe audience liked or didn’t like it; and

(07:57):
after the play, how the experts thought aboutit; and after some time passed, whether people
still remember it. The whole process, I haveexperience with that. I think this was really
important for me to be a playwright. At thattime, when I worked in the theatre for one

(08:20):
year, I watched almost all the plays in Shanghaithat year. But after I watched all of these
plays, I thought maybe I can write one. Soyeah, I didn't think they would be put on
the stage, I just wrote.OF: interesting. And so this was when you

(08:41):
first started in the theatre, your familyback in 安徽 [Ānhuī] then, what did they
think about this?NY: So when I called my father, I told him
“I don't want to be a doctor, I want towork in the theatre”. He said “You are
a crazy guy”, but they support my decisionat last. And now they really care about me.

OF (09:03):
So when did your play start being discovered by other people?

NY (09:08):
In the 1990s in fact, in China, the performing arts really went down. In our theatre each
year we would produce about four or five plays.OF: That's not very many in a year, right?
Yeah, yeah. Also we have didn't have an audience. So in the 2000s, the artistic director,

(09:29):
they wanted to find new plays, and I said“I have three plays. If you want to put
on the stage, you can try”. So for our theatreat that time, we chose one of my plays, ‘The
Last Winter’, and chose the director, hejust graduated from the Shanghai Theatre Academy;

(09:52):
and the set designer, and this was his firsttime to be a designer. Also the actor just
graduated. So all were new people, but thatplay was really successful. And they said
“Do you have another play?”, so I say“I don’t, but I can write one”. I had

(10:14):
two plays I didn't want to give them, I thoughtmaybe they wouldn’t like them. So I wrote
a play, ‘www.com'. This plays was anotherhit.

OF (10:24):
Did you always secretly have the confidence that you could do it? Or was it really a surprise
for you, as well?NY: At the beginning it really surprised me,
you know, when I wrote the plays, I didn'tthink people would put them on a stage.
And when you say you were able to understand what the audience wanted, what actually was
that?NY: All the subjects I wrote were about young

(10:44):
people. Because I know the audience, they'rereally young, I want to attract them.
Have you always focused on young people as your key audience? Or has it been different?

NY (10:54):
Because I don't want to repeat myself, always again. So sometime, I will lead the
audience somewhere. Sometime I work with audiencetogether. Sometimes I want to make the audience
angry, I wanted to fight with them. I wantto explore how far I can go, and where I can

(11:16):
go.OF: What's a good example of that?
In 2015, I wanted to adapt a film, ‘Walter Defends Sarajevo’. That was a really popular
film in China, in the 1970s. So when theywent to the theatre, they brings something,

(11:37):
you know, they wanted to feel excited again.But the times had already changed, I thought
the hero could become a fascist on the stage.So that was a big problem for the audience.
They want to go watch a hero, they don’twant to watch a fascist on the stage. So I

(11:57):
changed the whole story.OF: Right.
When we did that, the audience really hated it. They didn't like it. We had a full
house at the Premier. But some of the audiencewas really angry, they stood up and went away.
And the next morning, in the newspaper therewas a big critical article. They gave me a

(12:19):
conference, something like…OF: Oh, like a hearing.
Yeah, they held a meeting about the play. OF
So they invited me. I'm the only guy sitting on one side, and they’re all sitting on
the other side.OF: Right.
They were really angry. But thee were two people that really supported me, they
liked it very very much. For me, I think thatis the theatre. I don't want to make the audience

(12:42):
happy. I want to make the audience think.This is what I do. But when I attended the
meeting, they were really angry, but theythey cared about me. They loved me, but they
were angry. I understand.OF: It's interesting, because it's rare to

(13:04):
find someone who actively wants to antagonisepeople. And you know, maybe you'll lose some
fans. But you didn't mind about that, youdidn't mind losing popularity?
Yeah. I care about my play attracting what kind of audience. Some audience, they
want to think. I think this audience, I reallywant to attract them.

OF (13:28):
And has it ever gone too far, then? Have you ever put on a play which, in the end,
they threatened to close completely?NY: No, but in 2015, in one year I had three
plays. One play’s name is ‘The Crowd’.This play is from the group angle to talk

(13:52):
about the past 40 years in China. What happened,since the Cultural Revolution, since China
tried to open the country. So this play isalready translated into eight languages. Another
play’s name is ‘How Could You Slap a Girl?’OF: Oh ‘Slap a Girl’

NY (14:12):
Yeah. OF
And this play also is a challenge for the audience. We had a stage reading in the
UK. But in China, we also did a workshop aboutthat. But we don't put it on the stage.

OF (14:28):
Is that how you're able to maintain your freedom. You can write whatever you want,
and you can put it on the stage in other countries.And even in China, you can't put it on stage,
but at least you have a workshop. Is thathow you do it?

NY (14:40):
Because in China, we have the Culture Policy. All the plays on the stage in China,
you must get the licence from the governmentso you can sell tickets. But because of our
theatre, we have our own audience, so I cando the workshop with them. We invited the

(15:02):
audience to be together, we talked about it.That is not a large audience, so we can do
it by ourselves. Films and TV, because theyhave a large audience, that would be really
serious. But for the theatre, we have morespace.

OF (15:22):
I mean, I guess you just write what you want to write. And I guess the question for
you is, do you put it on the stage or not.But you still write whatever you want.

NY (15:30):
Yeah. Most of the artists - from young to old, from different generations - the first
thing they care about is what kind of thingthey cannot write. Because they want to be
safe. They don't want to take the risk. Butwhen I talk with them, I think this is a real
bad thing. Because if you are an artist, youshould do what you want to do. So, the second

(15:57):
thing is the operation. Because every everycountry has a law. If you want it to change,
you need to change the law. You cannot say“I cannot write this, I cannot write that”.
You would not write anything. But if you say“I can write it. I want to take the risk.

(16:17):
I want to explore myself. Even though I don'tknow where I would go, but I still want to
do it.” And then, for the second part, thatis another thing.

OF (16:25):
And what themes do you think that you'll be touching on in your next pieces? Like,
do you have anything in mind right now?NY: I have many things I want to write. In
my computer, I have many plays. Some justhas the beginning, some just have the idea.
I don’t know, but maybe more than 50 rightnow.
Oh man, I only really write little articles. But even with a little article, I can have

(16:50):
a block. So when I see someone like you whocan have 50 plays, all on the go at the same
time… Yeah, I'm jealous. I'm jealous ofyour ability just to keep on producing.

NY (16:59):
I don't know, because maybe different people have different habits. Maybe some people,
when they write they become so serious. Ihave… One of my friends, he is also a playwright,
he writes Chinese traditional opera, he mustbe alone; and close the door; and also after
taking a shower, maybe that will be much better;and then he starts to write. I think “Oh

(17:25):
my God”, for me, I can write anywhere. Infact, my last play, I wrote on a plane. You
know, people will service you, give you food,you can sleep, you do what you want to do,
I think that’s really good for me to writea play. So I wrote the play.

OF (17:44):
Oh, next time I'm on my third gin tonic on a long flight, I’ll think of you, and
think “Oh, I could be so much more productive”.Thank you so much, Nick. Really enjoyed that.
And let's move on to Part 2.NY: OK.
[Part 2]OF: OK so Part 2, it's the same 10 questions

(18:05):
I asked every guest. So, Question Number 1,what is your favourite China-related fact?
Could be about history, about your hometown,anything.

NY (18:14):
I think that is the traditional management in the village. I think that is a sad thing,
all these kind of the systems are broken now.In China, in history, the official manager
from the Emperor, the lowest one will be inthe County. But in the village, they would

(18:41):
be managed by themselves. That is by the traditionalculture, not really involved with the officials.
So I think that's something like a dream before.That is really good.

OF (18:54):
Right. NY
a teacher in the county, in the village. Butbefore, he didn’t have a salary. So who
will pay him? The village would give him afield.
A field? NY
him. And all the people in the village don’tpay a salary to him, but this field, you can

(19:21):
plant, and when you have gain, you can getthe food.
So actually then, they would farm the field, and whatever they made in that field,
they would give to your father.NY: Yeah.
Right. NY
villages, they will work on the field. Myfather is not a farmer. And they will give

(19:42):
that to my father as the salary. So that istheir culture. So you are a teacher, you work,
you teach their children, and all day theywill work for you, and take care of the field.
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese? So maybe it's a phrase that's

(20:05):
very hard to translate into English, or maybeit's a new internet phrase that has recently
become popular. What would you say is yourfavourite one of those?

NY (20:15):
I know a lot of words that would be really difficult. One is Shanghainese. That word
is 作 [zuò].OF: 作 [Zuò].
Do you know this word? OF
作 [zuò] is something like 工作的’作’ [gōngzuò de ‘zuò’].

OF (20:30):
Oh 工作的’作’ [gōngzuò de ‘zuò’], yeah.

NY (20:32):
But always to talk about girls. For example, when a girl has a boyfriend, and she would
do so many things to make the boyfriend crazy,but still love her and still want to get her.
There is only one word in Shanghai, that is作 [zuò]. Only Shanghai girls have this

(20:55):
作 [zuò]. You know, when I put this 作[zuò] in ‘www.com’, the play… The girl
from Shanghai, I said she's a 作 [zuò].But we when we did this play, we translated
it for many different languages, nobody knewhow to translate it. Until now. I don't know.

OF (21:13):
I love it. OK, that's the perfect answer. And now I'm going to ask people in Shanghai,
and they can tell me how they would translatethat.

NY (21:21):
Maybe. OF
I can't translate it either.NY: Maybe. But I don't know.

OF (21:27):
What is your favourite destination within China?

NY (21:31):
Home. When I am in Shanghai right now, I always miss home. That is in the village,
we have a small house there. That's stillthere. We say that is… I don't know how
to say it in English, that is home sick?OF: Yes, yes.
But you know in fact, in China, the villages changed so much.

OF (21:55):
Right. NY
always go to the big city. Ten years ago,I did research that said in China, every day,
about 80 to 90 villages disappear. There arelots of villages, nobody lives there, they’re

(22:15):
empty.OF: But this is probably a global trend as
well, because I think I've heard the samething about Japan, I've heard the same thing
about the UK, just the depopulation of thecountryside.

NY (22:26):
But in the UK, they spent almost 200 or 300 years to have this process. In China,
we only have 20 years.OF: Yeah.
Or 10 years. So that’s quickly. OF
So we destroyed so many things. We’re too fast. So that is the problem.

OF (22:46):
Well, when you say that, I can really… I can feel that your heart is in that village
in 安徽 [Ānhuī]. And on the subject of安徽 [Ānhuī], like, can you tell me something
in the dialect that you speak? Like, what’sjust an easy sentence?

NY (23:00):
[Speaks in dialect]. OF
It means ‘Today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow’.

OF (23:08):
Really? NY
That's that sounds nothing like Mandarin. NY
I thought the 安徽 [Ānhuī] local languageis Mandarin. But when I went to Shanghai I
was all “Oh my God, it’s really different”.I can speak the Shanghai local language.

(23:29):
Right. NY
don't understand. That’s not my fault, it’stheir fault.
If you left China, what would you miss the most? And what would you miss the least?

NY (23:40):
The food from my home, 安徽 [Ānhuī]. I don't want to say that, but that’s true.

OF (23:47):
But OK, let me ask you then, what is specifically the 安徽 [Ānhuī] cuisine that you would
miss?NY: The ‘bad smell fish’.
Oh, God. NY
Oh, God, I can’t. I can’t. I can't. I can't do the stinky tofu, and the stinky
fish sounds even worse.NY: It’s really good.

(24:07):
And what about the other way? Like if you… What would you miss the least about
leaving China?NY: Shanghai food.
Ah right. It's too sweet, right? NY
OK next question. Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?

NY (24:23):
In fact, I have so many things, for the new things happening in China. Like the high
speed way, the trains. Also, like the internet…So when you have the mobile phone, you have
the wifi everywhere. In China, in the villageit’s the same as in Shanghai.

OF (24:43):
Yeah. What is your favourite place to go out? Let's say in Shanghai. Like, do you
have a favourite restaurant or a favouritebar, or just a place to hang out?

NY (24:53):
If you say in Shanghai a place you love, it’s our theatre. I’m really crazy for
my job. Since 1995, I stayed in this road,and every night I’m almost the last guy
to leave this building.OF: What is the best or worst purchase you

(25:15):
have made recently?NY: I think that is one T-shirt. I think…
I forget… That is almost 10 years ago, inHong Kong I bought one T-shirt that is so
comfortable. So everyday, almost, I will wearthis one, and then use another one, and then

(25:36):
this one will be back in the second day. ThisT-Shirt, I already wore for almost 10 years.
But always, I think that is really good forme.

OF (25:47):
Next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?

NY (25:50):
Yeah, that is just a boy. He’s so happy. When he walks, he’s so happy. You know,
I think that is me. I also want to be likethat. When I was young in the village, I would
be just like that. All the world is mine.I'm a guy, from bottom my heart, who wants

(26:11):
to be happy. So that's why I changed my jobfrom the hospital. I don't want everybody
to say their problems. I want people to behappy.

OF (26:20):
That’s lovely. I really like this one, I’m keeping it.

NY (26:23):
Thank you. OF
to sing at KTV?NY: I went to KTV many many times with my
colleagues, with my friends. My voice is notthat good. But I have one song, it’s from
a movie. In Chinese, the name is 大实话[Dà Shíhuà]. That movie is about a member

(26:46):
of the Communist Party, 焦裕禄 [Jiāo Yùlù].He's real famous in China. He died in the
1950s. That story really touched lots of peoplefor many generations. But in that film they
have a song. That song is really difficult,but I love it. Yeah.

OF (27:08):
OK. Last question, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?NY: I think that’s the 朋友圈 [péngyǒuquān.
Just the news that your friends share on WeChat?

NY (27:21):
Yeah. OF
just get their news from WeChat.NY: On WeChat you can find everything. Anything.

OF (27:28):
Right. Well, thank you so much, Nick. NY
I really enjoyed our chat. And I think you have found the nice balance between playing
within the rules of, you know, what is legal…But also stepping as close to the line as
possible, without going over it. I think that'san interesting lesson for people to follow.

NY (27:47):
Yeah, sometimes you will take that so seriously, but sometimes that’s just a game.
You need to know how to find the way to playthe game.

OF (27:58):
Well, if it's a game, I think you're winning. NY
I’m always in the process. I think the gameis interesting.
Nice. Before you leave, in my next season of Mosaic of China, I would like to interview
someone who you recommend. So, out of everyoneyou know in China, who would you recommend

(28:21):
that I interview next?NY: His name is Zhang Yuan, the Maker Zhang.
Yeah, we worked in the theatre. But he leftto be an independent artist. I think his work
is really interesting.OF: That's great, I can't wait to meet Yuan.
And thank you again for coming today.NY: Thank you. Thank you, bye.

(28:44):
[Outro]OF: And there we have it. So Nick's answer
to Question 10 about his preferred sourceof news was WeChat. And that's the fourth
time now that this answer has come up in theseries. It's the same thing Yael said in last
week's episode, and the other two were Astrid,the violinist from Episode 04, and Maple,
the comedian from Episode 02. Next, the Shanghaineseword 作 [zuò]. So I did check with others

(29:10):
in Shanghai, and the best definition I couldfind was that it describes ‘a Shanghainese
girl who is capricious and hard to please,in a coquettish way’. So that's about 20
syllables in English to describe just onein the Shanghai dialect.
I really enjoyed Nick's insight into villagelife in China, and I found an interesting
graph from the World Economic Forum, whichshows the rate of rural depopulation in China

(29:33):
versus the other G20 countries. Japan is upthere, its second in the list, but Nick was
correct, China’s rate is by far the highest.For all of these graphics, as usual, please
go to @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram and @mosaicofchinaon Facebook, or add me on my Wechat ID: mosaicofchina
and I'll add you to the group there. You'llalso find this week a photo of the stinky

(29:55):
fish that Nick mentioned as the representative安徽 [Ānhuī] cuisine that he would miss
if he left China. It’s full name is 黄山臭桂鱼[Huángshān Chòuguìyú], ‘Yellow Mountains
Stinky Fish’. I don’t know, does it lookappetising really? You be the judge.
What else? There's of course a photo of Nickwith his object, his first collection of plays;

(30:16):
there's his favourite WeChat sticker, theone of the happy village boy; I also found
some original graphics of the film ‘WalterDefends Sarajevo’ that was so popular in
China, and that Nick got in trouble for whenhe adapted it for the stage - one is the original
poster from Yugoslavia, and the other is theChinese one. And another fascinating image,
I thought, is the music score that I foundfor 大实话 [Dà Shíhuà], the song that

(30:39):
Nick likes to sing at karaoke. It's the firsttime I've personally seen music written for
Chinese instruments, and it's nothing likeWestern music scores. And the final few photos
are ones that Nick sent me. There is the theatre,the Shanghai Dramatic Art Centre; and then
there were photos from the nearest town tohis village, which is 运漕 [Yùncáo] in

(31:00):
含山 [Hánshān] county, in 安徽 [Ānhuī]province. Incidentally, the village of eight
people where he grew up was called 喻 [Yù]village, the same as his family name. The
only thing I didn't post on social media wasa photo of Nick in that 10-year-old white
T-shirt he mentioned, so if you see him walkingaround 安福路 [Ānfú Lù] in Shanghai,
then please see if he's wearing it.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs. Extraediting support from Milo de Prieto, artwork

(31:25):
by Denny Newell, and China support from AlstonGong. Wow, that outro was far too long. If
you're still listening to this, then whatthe hell were you thinking? You could have
written two plays by now.