November 4, 2019 • 30 mins
In 2010, Yael Farjun had a chance encounter with someone at the Shanghai Expo, which led her to undertake an amazing research project. We discuss the heroism and humanity of one Chinese man in Vienna, which resulted in an epic migration from Europe to Shanghai. And in so doing, we highlight Shanghai’s unique historical status as a Free Port, and a magnet for people from around the world. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:33 - Part 1 23:32 - Part 2 28:53 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]YF: And at that point,
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I became white. Completely. I was like “Oh,OK. Er, hi. Can you..? Do you want to come in?”
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Thanks to everyone who got in touch afterlast week's episode with Sebastien. The
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place where I received the most messageswas actually LinkedIn, maybe unsurprisingly,
since the content was more skewed towardscorporate life in China. But quite a few
of these were from people who I'd known formany years professionally without realising
that they had children on the autismspectrum. So that was a real eye-opener,
thanks again to Sebastian for sharing hisexperiences of autism in the workplace in
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China. And it was also another reminder about theinteresting status of LinkedIn, which is the one
mainstream social media platform which existsuncensored in China. Definitely something worth
remembering for anyone out there who is tryingto create bridges between these two worlds.
So on to today's episode, which is with YaelFarjun. I had met Yael before, but it was our
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mutual friend, Rebecca Kanthor, who told meabout the specific story which Yael will be
talking about today. So a big thanks to Bec. Andapologies to Yael herself for the same reason,
since I did feel bad about bringing her onto thepodcast to talk about just this one thing, really.
Because of this, I did make sure that we spent thefirst few minutes talking about other things. But
(01:28):
then there's a handbrake turn into the main partof the story. You'll know it when you hear it.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you Yael. I'm here with Yael
Farjun. Yael is the founder of ChinaClickGo.com,which is a bespoke travel agency.
YF (01:43):
Thank you for having me. OF
in some way describes your life here in China?YF: So I brought the easiest one for me,
it's my arm watch, my watch. Back in Israel,during army service and everything, you have
to wear a watch because you want to know all thetime where you're at. Then after the army service,
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I just decided “No, I'm going to get rid of mywatch. And I'm going to live without it. Whatever,
you know, spontaneously, whatever happens, I'lllet the day lead me”. And I managed to keep it
that way almost until I came to China. I thinkjust at the beginning when I came to China, I
realised “OK. No.” I had to get a bit more strictor organised and well-timed. So I bought a new
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watch. And ever since, that was my China thing.OF: So is it a source of comfort, or a source of
frustration, that you now have to wear a watch?YF: I actually find it a source of comfort. Well,
first of all, it's a jewel, right? It'ssort of an accessory, so it's nice. But
actually looking at my watch instead ofmy phone for the time makes it much nicer.
OF (02:56):
Well, I've brought you in here for a specific story.
YF (03:00):
Yeah. OF
let's hear about your background.So how did you first come to China?
I came to China first time in 2009 with a group of students. We all got a scholarship for
studying Chinese, Mandarin Chinese. And that wasmy first ever trip to China. I came back to China
a year after - it was even less than a year,in 2010 - for working at the Expo, the World
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Expo in Shanghai in 2010, Israeli Pavilion, andI was part of a delegation of… we were supposed
to be the China experts, right? The people whocould speak Chinese, and hence communicate with
local crowds that came to visit the pavilion.OF: Wow. Yeah, I came to China way after that,
but I've heard stories about the Expo. Like, thatwas really when Shanghai opened itself up to the
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world for most people outside of China, right?YF: Yes, exactly. It was the event of that decade,
let's say, or something like that, thatreally made Shanghai change its face,
knowing that we're going to have so manyvisitors, and they're going to be on the headlines
of the news everywhere. So it was very important.OF: And so after that experience then,
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you did end up staying in China,but what did you end up doing?
So my first decision was that I want to stay. And then I had to figure out doing what.
And I decided to start as a tour guide.It was the easiest for me to start with,
I had a lot of knowledge from university, I loveworking with people, and I love travelling, I said
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“Why not?” Funnily enough, I never took a guidedtour before. So I didn't have anything to compare
it to. Like I knew “OK, I'm going to show peoplearound, and tell them the history of places”. But
then I realised it's so much more. The job ofa tour guide is to open a door to a different,
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new culture. Really explain it, and really makeit easier for those who are not from that culture
to maybe feel connected with it. The challenges?Well, you're still working with people. And that
always can bring challenges. I remember I thinkthe biggest challenge for me was working with
other people that, like me, never had a guidedtour before. And it's not just language barriers,
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which of course exist around here, but let's sayyou have a health problem. And you don't think
it's a big deal. And you've been travelling aroundthe world before. And you managed, and everything
is fine. And so you planned yourself a trip toTiger Leaping Gorge. But then you realise that if
you're gonna stay in the gorge during the night,you might not have electricity. Then what do you
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do with that thing you need to use overnightfor your health? And people just, you know,
it's not that easy to find out those small detailsabout specific places where you travel. And that's
why you need help organising your trip.OF: It sounds like that's an actual
example that you’re talking about.YF: Oh my god, yes, it is an actual example.
And as you can see, it was a traumatic one forme. Yeah, I ended up not sleeping the whole night,
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just so worried that my traveller willhave a health issue during the night,
and I won't be able to send someone to rescuethem and get them to the nearest hospital.
OF (06:21):
Right, because if you're doing that trek up the gorge, actually, you're nowhere near a city
overnight, right? You're in the middle of nowhere.YF: Exactly. It is literally in the middle of
nowhere. And I think it's also a special area,where cars are not allowed in unless they belong
to specific local villages. So you have to knowsomeone from that village to be able to take
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you out, and of course pay them and the wholething. And how do you even reach out to them,
if they don't have electricity, and youhave a problem at 1am or something like
that? So yeah, that was a very stressful night.OF: Well, this leads me to my next question,
which is a little bit of a shift intone. But you mentioned, of course,
that you had done studies about China. But there'sone specific area where you probably were just as
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surprised as I was when you heard about it, right?YF: Yes, definitely. I think it was the first
biggest surprise that I had in China. During thatsummer semester, the University arranged all sorts
of activities for us in the afternoons. And one ofthem was going to visit the ‘Jewish church’. This
is actually a synagogue in the 虹口 [Hóngkǒu] areain Shanghai. And that was the first time ever that
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I've heard that Shanghai has some historicalbackground that has to do with Jewish people.
Right, so where does that story start? YF
the 19th century with the first wave of Jews thatcame to Shanghai as merchants, as businessmen. And
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later on others came, under completely differentcircumstances. Russian Jews, some of them
refugees. And then, of course, the last big groupof refugees that managed to escape from Europe
just before the beginning of World War II.OF: Right. So where were
these particular Jews from?YF: The majority of them came from Berlin
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and Vienna. Just because, you know, that's wherepeople knew about the opportunity, the option of
even coming to Shanghai, so they could tellothers. The rumour didn't didn't make it to
much smaller, much further away locations. Itstarted in Vienna with one guy who went trying
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to get visas for himself and his family, to justget out of Germany. And he couldn't find anyone to
give him those visas. And at some point, he foundhimself standing at the front of what used to be
the Chinese Consulate. He wasn't sure it was theChinese, he saw some weird characters and drawings
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and was like “OK, I guess it's somewhere from theeast” but he wasn't sure exactly where it was. And
he found himself standing there in line, waitingfor his turn to go inside and ask for the visa.
And by the time it was his turn to go inside, theconsulate was already closing for that day. But
he kept standing and waiting outside. And then aman came out, a tall gentleman according to the
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stories, and asked him “Sir, why are you stillstanding here?” And he said - Eric Goldstaub,
that was the man's name - and he said “Well youknow, we are trying to get visas for me and my
family. I have three children. We need to get outof Germany, and no-one will give me any visas”.
And so the man - now we know it was Dr. 何凤山 [HéFèngshān], Consul General of China in Vienna,
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Austria, at that time - he said “Well, give meyour passports if you have them, and let me see
what I can do”. And he took the passports, andthe story goes that he didn't sleep for the entire
night trying to figure out a way of making thishappen. Because he couldn't issue a refugee visa,
that was an order that he could not violate.But he really wanted to help. At some point,
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he came up with a solution, realising thatif he issues a visa specifically to Shanghai,
it will help the Jews get out of Vienna, and enterinto China. Because Shanghai was an open port,
you didn't need anything coming in, you didn'tneed to show any papers. So he realised that
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this is where he has strength, and that'swhat he can do to really help. And he started
issuing those visas, specifically to Shanghai.OF: And so, do you have any idea about how many
people went through the same process?YF: So this is the thing, we are not
exactly sure how many received Dr. 何凤山[Hé Fèngshān]'s visas. His daughter,
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who is researching his life work - she livesin the U.S. - she found records of about 4,000
visas. But we know of about approximately15,000 Jews who managed to escape Berlin,
Vienna, up until even 1941, which is alreadyway into the war, but managed to escape and
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come all the way to China.OF: And so what was that
journey like? What was the way that they came?YF: The majority of the people took trains to
Italy, and from there took cruise ships, all theway to Shanghai. it could have taken between two
to four weeks at sea, depends on how many stopsthey had on the way. And you can actually see on
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their passports, like, the different chops ofwherever if they went offshore. So you can see
different stamps from different places.OF: Wow, so they would have had to have
bought those cruise tickets. Sothat wouldn't have been very cheap.
YF (11:59):
Definitely not. And many of them either sold whatever they could, or took all their savings.
Loans sometimes, from family and friends. Oneof the things that they did was to buy much more
expensive tickets, and then downgrade themselveswhen they got to the ship, so that they will have
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some cash with them when they arrive in China.OF: What life did they encounter,
then, once they arrived in Shanghai?YF: Well, completely different than what they
knew back home, of course. Not just the climatethat was different, but they couldn't bring much
with them, they couldn't sell much of what theyhad. So they came here with nothing, technically,
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and they started very much at the bottom.OF: What then was your personal connection
with this? So I mean, this is back in2009, when you first heard about it. So
how does your personal story progress?YF: So when I heard it the first time,
first of all I was shocked. I was like “Howcome I've never heard of anything like that
before. I'm Israeli, we learn a lot about theHolocaust, we learn a lot about, of course,
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Jewish history around the world. And they had afull bachelor degree about China. And no-one never
mentioned any Jewish connection. So that was onething that kept me really up at night in a way,
you could say. I tried to read as much as I couldafter that visit, found out whatever books I
could, whatever articles, and really tried to getmore knowledgeable about it. And then in 2010,
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when I came back to work at the Expo, we used tohave about 300 people every 15 minutes coming into
the pavilion. And so the line, you know, startedbuilding up outside the door. And once in a while
we'll have those who are trying to cut the line,of course. And, you know, we got kind of got used
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to them at some point. Then one day I was sendingup the entrance, and one of the first things that
people would see when they came in was a signthat the Foreign Ministry of Israel put there,
it was the first thing that anyone who cameinto the pavilion saw, with a picture of
Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān] and the story of what hedid, and how he saved so many Jews. And so an
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elderly guy was standing at the entrance, and kindof like pointing at the sign. And I was looking
at him, and I thought he wants to cut the line.And so I looked at him and I actually approached
him in English. I don't know why not in Chinesebecause he looked Chinese and I was like "Yes sir,
how can I help you?” And he looked at me and hesaid “Well, this is my father”. And it didn't
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sink in at the beginning, what he said. I really,honestly I thought he's just trying to cut the
line and get into the pavilion. It was a very hotday, and I could totally understand, you know,
and feel for him. And I started telling him “Yes,this is Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān]”, you know, I'm kind
of like telling him the story. And then he looksat me and he says “Yes, I know. I'm the son of
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Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān]. This is my father”. Andat that point, I became white. Completely. I was
like “Oh, OK. Er, hi. Can you..? Do you want tocome in?” And we got him in inside the pavilion,
and he was walking around with his wife, andaccompanied by a Chinese student. Because when
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he left China he was about eight or nine yearsold. And they spoke a little bit of Shanghainese
at home, but he couldn't speak Mandarin.OF: Oh so wait, so he actually
was from America at this point?YF: Yes. Yes. So when he replied,
he replied in, you know, perfect English. And sowe continued the conversation in English. And then
he walked in with his wife, and this student thatwas helping to translate. And we got to meet and
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we asked him “Why didn't you say you were coming?”You know, as Israelis in Shanghai, and the Jewish
community, and the consulate will probably want tocelebrate, and do something to honour him. And he
said something that stayed with me, and you know,really, I will never forget. He said “I didn't
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think anyone remembers. I didn't think anyonewill care”. And that's why he didn't even bother
telling us that he's coming. And I remember how Ifelt bad about this. How come the son of someone
who did such an amazing thing for my people,and we're not even acknowledging it or not
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acknowledging enough? And that was a moment forme that I will never forget, thinking afterwards
that I need to do something about it. So I triedto find a way to collect as much information
as possible, to create sort of a library ofthat information, and make it public so more
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people would be able to learn and research andunderstand that part of history that not a lot of
us had heard of. And part of the thing that I did,in 2014, I had a chance to travel to the U.S.,
actually on behalf of the Ohel Moshe synagogue- today's Shanghai Jewish Refugees Museum - to
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interview former Shanghai Jewish refugees. And Iwent, joining them on a cruise ship. The theme was
‘taking the cruise in memory of their parents, whotook them on the cruise that saved their lives’.
OF (17:24):
Right. YF
of meeting eight of them (17:29):
two of them in their 90s; I think three or four were in their 80s;
and the rest in their 70s. And I just asked allof them, would you mind being interviewed to the
camera and telling your stories? Whatever itis that you remember? And that was a profound
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experience for me. That was incredible.OF: Wow, what happened to the refugees
after the war? Did did most of themgo back to Europe and the States?
YF (17:58):
Yeah, eventually. In the States, so the largest group that we know of former refugees
to Shanghai lives in the States today.The second largest group is actually in
Australia. And then the third is in Israel.Some went back to Europe, mostly to Vienna,
but then the majority didn't stay there.OF: And so, when you did these interviews then,
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can you remember any specificstories that that stand out?
So one of the interesting things that each and every one of them remembered was
that their parents tried very hard to make surethat the children don't suffer, or acknowledge,
or be aware of the hardships. In a way that,well, they had lots of professors and musicians,
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and even an Olympic boxer. They had balletdancers, they had theatre actors. And so
they tried to fill in the time with activities,cultural activities, from back home. And the kids
were allowed to participate in almost everything.And so it was very important for the parents that
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the kids would continue their education, andconnect to the culture that they came from.
And so they actually said that there were so manyactivities, and things to do, that there are days
were never dull, they were never boring.They had Sunday schools. They learned Hebrew,
they learned English. They really made use ofwhatever resource they had. And regardless of
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the circumstances of what happened around them.OF: And you talk about the circumstances,
so how did the situation changeonce war came here to China?
So to be fair, we need to remember that the Japanese were surrounding Shanghai already in
1932. So, many years before the war in Europeeven broke out. The big change happened in 1941
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when Japan actually joined Nazi Germany. And theneverything changed in Shanghai, because if you
were of the wrong nationality, then you becamean enemy of Japan. And that included Americans
and British and others that were here, that inEurope were enemies of Germany automatically
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became enemies of Japan here. That meant a lot forthe Jewish communities that lived in Shanghai at
that time. For all of those who were British - andamong the older Jewish community, the Sephardic
Jewish community that was here, many wereBritish citizens - so they were put in prisoners
of war camps. And their lives, of course, changedcompletely. The second group was the Russian Jews,
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they were actually the ones that sufferedthe least, because there were still Russians,
and Japan didn't want to mess up with Russia thatmuch. But the third group, our refugees who came
from Europe, there were stateless. So technically,they had no nationality. But of course, the Nazis
recognised them as part of the Third Reich, orthey knew where they came from. So they started
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demanding the Japanese to ‘deal with them’, let'ssay it this way. There were all sorts of plans,
some of them to completely kill all of the Jewsthat were here; others to put them in different
types of camps. It ended up with the Japaneseagreeing to put them in a designated area,
which was that area in 虹口 [Hóngkǒu] where themajority of them already lived. And technically
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that changed the lives of everyone living inShanghai. Not just the Jews, by the way, but yes.
OF (21:38):
Yeah, of course. And this is where it all goes into context with everyone else's hardships. But
Isn't it ironic that actually, the Jews were firstsaved by Dr. 何 [Hé] in Vienna, and then here,
they were saved by the Japanese?YF: In a way, yes, it is.
And so what is the status now then? Here we are in Shanghai,
you mentioned that there is this Jewish refugeemuseum? Is it known among the Shanghainese
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people about this story, or in China in general?YF: I think there is a greater awareness of it
today than it was when I came here, that's forsure. The museum is doing a really good job at
archiving and collecting materials and stories.I think that because of their really good job,
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more and more people are aware. Shanghainesefor sure are aware of this. They grew up with,
you know, those stories. So they know thatmuch better than those who are coming in from
other places. But the story gets more and moreattention, let's say, being taught a bit more,
being shared a bit more definitely inrecent years than than it was before.
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Well, as you say, it's one part of a very big story when it comes to what happened in
those times.YF: Sure.
But because it's such an interesting connection that most people don't know,
especially where we heard about the OskarSchindler story in Germany, and to have an
equivalent here in Shanghai, which no-one knowsabout was was a real eye-opener. And I agree with
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you that the museum does a great job, and thevolunteers there - who are Shanghainese mainly,
right - they’re really passionate. I was reallyimpressed with how much knowledge they had,
and how they wanted to give uptheir spare time to tell others.
YF (23:21):
True. Many of them are volunteers. OF
appreciate that.YF: Thank you.
OF (23:27):
And let's move on now to Part 2. YF
[Part 2]OF: Now Part 2,
there were 10 questions. SoI hope that you're ready.
YF (23:36):
OK. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?YF: OK, so you know how people claim that
you can see the Great Wall fromthe moon? That is not true.
OF (23:49):
Right. Right. I wonder how that rumour got started?
YF (23:53):
Yeah, that that would be interesting research. OF
word or phrase in Chinese?YF: Oh, definitely. 哎哟 [Āiyō].
OF (24:01):
哎哟 [Āiyō]. YF
you know, it's so natural for me now.OF: And it's like “Oh my God” or,
how would you describe it?YF: Yeah, something like “Oh,
gosh” or something like that.OF: Yeah, usually out of frustration, isn't it?
YF (24:16):
Yes. OF
is your favourite destination within China?YF: I've been to 阳朔 [Yángshuò] a few times,
I have good friends there. And I just cannot haveenough of that place. It's just… it's magical.
OF (24:28):
Right. That's the area where there's the mountains jutting up straight from the water.
YF (24:34):
Exactly. OF
miss the most and what would you miss the least?YF: Miss the most will be how easy things can be
here in terms of ordering things online, let'ssay. Or the fact that you can just walk out of
the house with your phone, and you'll haveeverything at the tip of your fingers. It's
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really… Sometimes going back home feels like goingback in time. But that's definitely… We've been
spoiled here. Miss the least would be… I loveChinese food, and unfortunately most of it is
made with pork. So yeah, which is a problem forme. So miss the least is the fact that even when
you ask in restaurants “Please don't put pork,nothing with pork”, they would still shred a
(25:20):
little bit of pork on top of it, because “Whatdo you mean, you cannot have it with pork? But
this is the whole flavour of the thing!” Yeah.OF: Oh god, it's so true. It's ubiquitous.
Yes. OF
there'll be a salad. And of course, just…YF: A little bit of pork on top of it.
That's what, you know, gives it the taste.OF: Yes. Oh, funny. Is there anything that
(25:40):
still surprises you about life in China?YF: Yes, I think again, how fast things
happen here. How a decision is madehere, or a direction is chosen,
and things just start racing in that direction.And it's just incredible how there are new things
happening in China almost on a daily basis.And they happen fast. They happen big. Yes,
(26:09):
I think that's still surprising.OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you have made in China?YF: Well, I can definitely say my
best purchase was my 小米 [Xiǎomǐ]. I lovethis phone. It's an extension of my hand,
and my life is within my 小米 [Xiǎomǐ], really.OF: And 小米 [Xiǎomǐ] was famous because they
have two SIM cards, right?YF: Oh yes, two SIM cards,
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a really easy plan for roaming servicesoutside of China. I don't even change my
SIM card anymore. I just buy it on the phone.OF: What is your favourite WeChat? sticker?
So I sent you the sticker… OF
…Of Gal Gadot, when she is excited about something, I find myself using that a lot in
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China, because again, there are so many newthings happening all the time, you know. And
so I'm excited a lot about daily life in China.And, well it's Gal Gadot, so of course, you know.
OF (27:05):
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? YF
lyrics of - it’s a pretty old song - is ‘KillingMe Softly’. That's the only song that I actually
remember all the lyrics to. And for somereason they have it in KTV. I try to avoid KTV,
to be honest, as much as I can. But if I do go,and I'm forced to sing, then this is the song
(27:31):
that I probably will choose.OF: Very nice. And finally,
what other China-related media orsources of information do you rely on?
YF (27:38):
Mostly my WeChat, to be honest. So WeChat feed articles, I'm following quite a lot of official
accounts. And we have different groups of peoplesharing different sectors, like industry sectors,
or segments of the economy type of articles.Very, very interesting. And the easiest,
(28:01):
the most useful, and relevant, I would say.Because it's just… again, it's just easy.
OF (28:06):
Well, thank you very much, Yael. YF
And the final question before you leave is, out of everyone who you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview next?YF: OK, so I had a pretty long list to be honest,
but I had to narrow it down. And I chose torecommend Charlene Lee, who is Co-founder of
(28:28):
‘Ladies Who Tech’ a community of women, toencourage women to get more into tech. So I
think that what she's doing is very importantand really inspiring. And plus, she's a really
cool person. So that's my recommendation.OF: Well, great. I look forward to speaking
with Charlene.YF: Great.
And I really enjoyed our chat today,
(28:49):
thank you again.YF: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So
there are a few interesting photos on socialmedia accompanying this episode. As usual,
please find them on @mosaicofchina_ onInstagram and @mosaicofchina on Facebook,
or add me on my Wechat ID (29:02):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there. We start with
the photo of Yael and her object, which was herwristwatch. Her favourite which sticker is there
too, the one with the excited Gal Gadot. Thereis a chart showing how much pork is eaten in
China versus other meats. You can see clearly howdifficult it is to avoid pork in this country. And
(29:27):
then there are some photos of 阳朔 [Yángshuò],Yael's favourite destination within China.
The other ones need a little more explaining.First, there are some from the Israel Pavilion at
the 2010 Shanghai Expo. Then there's one of 何凤山[Hé Fèngshān] himself. Then the next three are
all from Yael's research. The first one is Yaelinterviewing a local Shanghainese lady who was
(29:50):
a childhood friend of a former refugee. And thenthis is followed by another photo of Yael standing
in front of the Jewish Refugees Museum with aman who was born in Shanghai to a refugee family,
and lived here until the age of about 10. And thefinal picture is an interview Yael did with a 94
year old Jewish lady in New York, whose housein the U.S. is still filled with furniture and
(30:13):
pictures, and other artefacts that she and herhusband brought back from China after the war.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.Thanks for listening, and see you next week.
[Trailer]YF: And at that point,
(00:03):
I became white. Completely. I was like “Oh,OK. Er, hi. Can you..? Do you want to come in?”
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Thanks to everyone who got in touch afterlast week's episode with Sebastien. The
(00:25):
place where I received the most messageswas actually LinkedIn, maybe unsurprisingly,
since the content was more skewed towardscorporate life in China. But quite a few
of these were from people who I'd known formany years professionally without realising
that they had children on the autismspectrum. So that was a real eye-opener,
thanks again to Sebastian for sharing hisexperiences of autism in the workplace in
(00:45):
China. And it was also another reminder about theinteresting status of LinkedIn, which is the one
mainstream social media platform which existsuncensored in China. Definitely something worth
remembering for anyone out there who is tryingto create bridges between these two worlds.
So on to today's episode, which is with YaelFarjun. I had met Yael before, but it was our
(01:08):
mutual friend, Rebecca Kanthor, who told meabout the specific story which Yael will be
talking about today. So a big thanks to Bec. Andapologies to Yael herself for the same reason,
since I did feel bad about bringing her onto thepodcast to talk about just this one thing, really.
Because of this, I did make sure that we spent thefirst few minutes talking about other things. But
(01:28):
then there's a handbrake turn into the main partof the story. You'll know it when you hear it.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you Yael. I'm here with Yael
Farjun. Yael is the founder of ChinaClickGo.com,which is a bespoke travel agency.
YF (01:43):
Thank you for having me. OF
in some way describes your life here in China?YF: So I brought the easiest one for me,
it's my arm watch, my watch. Back in Israel,during army service and everything, you have
to wear a watch because you want to know all thetime where you're at. Then after the army service,
(02:07):
I just decided “No, I'm going to get rid of mywatch. And I'm going to live without it. Whatever,
you know, spontaneously, whatever happens, I'lllet the day lead me”. And I managed to keep it
that way almost until I came to China. I thinkjust at the beginning when I came to China, I
realised “OK. No.” I had to get a bit more strictor organised and well-timed. So I bought a new
(02:33):
watch. And ever since, that was my China thing.OF: So is it a source of comfort, or a source of
frustration, that you now have to wear a watch?YF: I actually find it a source of comfort. Well,
first of all, it's a jewel, right? It'ssort of an accessory, so it's nice. But
actually looking at my watch instead ofmy phone for the time makes it much nicer.
OF (02:56):
Well, I've brought you in here for a specific story.
YF (03:00):
Yeah. OF
let's hear about your background.So how did you first come to China?
I came to China first time in 2009 with a group of students. We all got a scholarship for
studying Chinese, Mandarin Chinese. And that wasmy first ever trip to China. I came back to China
a year after - it was even less than a year,in 2010 - for working at the Expo, the World
(03:26):
Expo in Shanghai in 2010, Israeli Pavilion, andI was part of a delegation of… we were supposed
to be the China experts, right? The people whocould speak Chinese, and hence communicate with
local crowds that came to visit the pavilion.OF: Wow. Yeah, I came to China way after that,
but I've heard stories about the Expo. Like, thatwas really when Shanghai opened itself up to the
(03:50):
world for most people outside of China, right?YF: Yes, exactly. It was the event of that decade,
let's say, or something like that, thatreally made Shanghai change its face,
knowing that we're going to have so manyvisitors, and they're going to be on the headlines
of the news everywhere. So it was very important.OF: And so after that experience then,
(04:11):
you did end up staying in China,but what did you end up doing?
So my first decision was that I want to stay. And then I had to figure out doing what.
And I decided to start as a tour guide.It was the easiest for me to start with,
I had a lot of knowledge from university, I loveworking with people, and I love travelling, I said
(04:33):
“Why not?” Funnily enough, I never took a guidedtour before. So I didn't have anything to compare
it to. Like I knew “OK, I'm going to show peoplearound, and tell them the history of places”. But
then I realised it's so much more. The job ofa tour guide is to open a door to a different,
(04:54):
new culture. Really explain it, and really makeit easier for those who are not from that culture
to maybe feel connected with it. The challenges?Well, you're still working with people. And that
always can bring challenges. I remember I thinkthe biggest challenge for me was working with
other people that, like me, never had a guidedtour before. And it's not just language barriers,
(05:21):
which of course exist around here, but let's sayyou have a health problem. And you don't think
it's a big deal. And you've been travelling aroundthe world before. And you managed, and everything
is fine. And so you planned yourself a trip toTiger Leaping Gorge. But then you realise that if
you're gonna stay in the gorge during the night,you might not have electricity. Then what do you
(05:45):
do with that thing you need to use overnightfor your health? And people just, you know,
it's not that easy to find out those small detailsabout specific places where you travel. And that's
why you need help organising your trip.OF: It sounds like that's an actual
example that you’re talking about.YF: Oh my god, yes, it is an actual example.
And as you can see, it was a traumatic one forme. Yeah, I ended up not sleeping the whole night,
(06:11):
just so worried that my traveller willhave a health issue during the night,
and I won't be able to send someone to rescuethem and get them to the nearest hospital.
OF (06:21):
Right, because if you're doing that trek up the gorge, actually, you're nowhere near a city
overnight, right? You're in the middle of nowhere.YF: Exactly. It is literally in the middle of
nowhere. And I think it's also a special area,where cars are not allowed in unless they belong
to specific local villages. So you have to knowsomeone from that village to be able to take
(06:42):
you out, and of course pay them and the wholething. And how do you even reach out to them,
if they don't have electricity, and youhave a problem at 1am or something like
that? So yeah, that was a very stressful night.OF: Well, this leads me to my next question,
which is a little bit of a shift intone. But you mentioned, of course,
that you had done studies about China. But there'sone specific area where you probably were just as
(07:09):
surprised as I was when you heard about it, right?YF: Yes, definitely. I think it was the first
biggest surprise that I had in China. During thatsummer semester, the University arranged all sorts
of activities for us in the afternoons. And one ofthem was going to visit the ‘Jewish church’. This
is actually a synagogue in the 虹口 [Hóngkǒu] areain Shanghai. And that was the first time ever that
(07:33):
I've heard that Shanghai has some historicalbackground that has to do with Jewish people.
Right, so where does that story start? YF
the 19th century with the first wave of Jews thatcame to Shanghai as merchants, as businessmen. And
(07:53):
later on others came, under completely differentcircumstances. Russian Jews, some of them
refugees. And then, of course, the last big groupof refugees that managed to escape from Europe
just before the beginning of World War II.OF: Right. So where were
these particular Jews from?YF: The majority of them came from Berlin
(08:17):
and Vienna. Just because, you know, that's wherepeople knew about the opportunity, the option of
even coming to Shanghai, so they could tellothers. The rumour didn't didn't make it to
much smaller, much further away locations. Itstarted in Vienna with one guy who went trying
(08:38):
to get visas for himself and his family, to justget out of Germany. And he couldn't find anyone to
give him those visas. And at some point, he foundhimself standing at the front of what used to be
the Chinese Consulate. He wasn't sure it was theChinese, he saw some weird characters and drawings
(08:59):
and was like “OK, I guess it's somewhere from theeast” but he wasn't sure exactly where it was. And
he found himself standing there in line, waitingfor his turn to go inside and ask for the visa.
And by the time it was his turn to go inside, theconsulate was already closing for that day. But
he kept standing and waiting outside. And then aman came out, a tall gentleman according to the
(09:26):
stories, and asked him “Sir, why are you stillstanding here?” And he said - Eric Goldstaub,
that was the man's name - and he said “Well youknow, we are trying to get visas for me and my
family. I have three children. We need to get outof Germany, and no-one will give me any visas”.
And so the man - now we know it was Dr. 何凤山 [HéFèngshān], Consul General of China in Vienna,
(09:53):
Austria, at that time - he said “Well, give meyour passports if you have them, and let me see
what I can do”. And he took the passports, andthe story goes that he didn't sleep for the entire
night trying to figure out a way of making thishappen. Because he couldn't issue a refugee visa,
that was an order that he could not violate.But he really wanted to help. At some point,
(10:17):
he came up with a solution, realising thatif he issues a visa specifically to Shanghai,
it will help the Jews get out of Vienna, and enterinto China. Because Shanghai was an open port,
you didn't need anything coming in, you didn'tneed to show any papers. So he realised that
(10:41):
this is where he has strength, and that'swhat he can do to really help. And he started
issuing those visas, specifically to Shanghai.OF: And so, do you have any idea about how many
people went through the same process?YF: So this is the thing, we are not
exactly sure how many received Dr. 何凤山[Hé Fèngshān]'s visas. His daughter,
(11:01):
who is researching his life work - she livesin the U.S. - she found records of about 4,000
visas. But we know of about approximately15,000 Jews who managed to escape Berlin,
Vienna, up until even 1941, which is alreadyway into the war, but managed to escape and
(11:25):
come all the way to China.OF: And so what was that
journey like? What was the way that they came?YF: The majority of the people took trains to
Italy, and from there took cruise ships, all theway to Shanghai. it could have taken between two
to four weeks at sea, depends on how many stopsthey had on the way. And you can actually see on
(11:46):
their passports, like, the different chops ofwherever if they went offshore. So you can see
different stamps from different places.OF: Wow, so they would have had to have
bought those cruise tickets. Sothat wouldn't have been very cheap.
YF (11:59):
Definitely not. And many of them either sold whatever they could, or took all their savings.
Loans sometimes, from family and friends. Oneof the things that they did was to buy much more
expensive tickets, and then downgrade themselveswhen they got to the ship, so that they will have
(12:20):
some cash with them when they arrive in China.OF: What life did they encounter,
then, once they arrived in Shanghai?YF: Well, completely different than what they
knew back home, of course. Not just the climatethat was different, but they couldn't bring much
with them, they couldn't sell much of what theyhad. So they came here with nothing, technically,
(12:41):
and they started very much at the bottom.OF: What then was your personal connection
with this? So I mean, this is back in2009, when you first heard about it. So
how does your personal story progress?YF: So when I heard it the first time,
first of all I was shocked. I was like “Howcome I've never heard of anything like that
before. I'm Israeli, we learn a lot about theHolocaust, we learn a lot about, of course,
(13:04):
Jewish history around the world. And they had afull bachelor degree about China. And no-one never
mentioned any Jewish connection. So that was onething that kept me really up at night in a way,
you could say. I tried to read as much as I couldafter that visit, found out whatever books I
could, whatever articles, and really tried to getmore knowledgeable about it. And then in 2010,
(13:30):
when I came back to work at the Expo, we used tohave about 300 people every 15 minutes coming into
the pavilion. And so the line, you know, startedbuilding up outside the door. And once in a while
we'll have those who are trying to cut the line,of course. And, you know, we got kind of got used
(13:50):
to them at some point. Then one day I was sendingup the entrance, and one of the first things that
people would see when they came in was a signthat the Foreign Ministry of Israel put there,
it was the first thing that anyone who cameinto the pavilion saw, with a picture of
Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān] and the story of what hedid, and how he saved so many Jews. And so an
(14:12):
elderly guy was standing at the entrance, and kindof like pointing at the sign. And I was looking
at him, and I thought he wants to cut the line.And so I looked at him and I actually approached
him in English. I don't know why not in Chinesebecause he looked Chinese and I was like "Yes sir,
how can I help you?” And he looked at me and hesaid “Well, this is my father”. And it didn't
(14:35):
sink in at the beginning, what he said. I really,honestly I thought he's just trying to cut the
line and get into the pavilion. It was a very hotday, and I could totally understand, you know,
and feel for him. And I started telling him “Yes,this is Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān]”, you know, I'm kind
of like telling him the story. And then he looksat me and he says “Yes, I know. I'm the son of
(14:57):
Dr. 何凤山 [Hé Fèngshān]. This is my father”. Andat that point, I became white. Completely. I was
like “Oh, OK. Er, hi. Can you..? Do you want tocome in?” And we got him in inside the pavilion,
and he was walking around with his wife, andaccompanied by a Chinese student. Because when
(15:18):
he left China he was about eight or nine yearsold. And they spoke a little bit of Shanghainese
at home, but he couldn't speak Mandarin.OF: Oh so wait, so he actually
was from America at this point?YF: Yes. Yes. So when he replied,
he replied in, you know, perfect English. And sowe continued the conversation in English. And then
he walked in with his wife, and this student thatwas helping to translate. And we got to meet and
(15:44):
we asked him “Why didn't you say you were coming?”You know, as Israelis in Shanghai, and the Jewish
community, and the consulate will probably want tocelebrate, and do something to honour him. And he
said something that stayed with me, and you know,really, I will never forget. He said “I didn't
(16:04):
think anyone remembers. I didn't think anyonewill care”. And that's why he didn't even bother
telling us that he's coming. And I remember how Ifelt bad about this. How come the son of someone
who did such an amazing thing for my people,and we're not even acknowledging it or not
(16:26):
acknowledging enough? And that was a moment forme that I will never forget, thinking afterwards
that I need to do something about it. So I triedto find a way to collect as much information
as possible, to create sort of a library ofthat information, and make it public so more
(16:48):
people would be able to learn and research andunderstand that part of history that not a lot of
us had heard of. And part of the thing that I did,in 2014, I had a chance to travel to the U.S.,
actually on behalf of the Ohel Moshe synagogue- today's Shanghai Jewish Refugees Museum - to
(17:09):
interview former Shanghai Jewish refugees. And Iwent, joining them on a cruise ship. The theme was
‘taking the cruise in memory of their parents, whotook them on the cruise that saved their lives’.
OF (17:24):
Right. YF
of meeting eight of them (17:29):
two of them in their 90s; I think three or four were in their 80s;
and the rest in their 70s. And I just asked allof them, would you mind being interviewed to the
camera and telling your stories? Whatever itis that you remember? And that was a profound
(17:50):
experience for me. That was incredible.OF: Wow, what happened to the refugees
after the war? Did did most of themgo back to Europe and the States?
YF (17:58):
Yeah, eventually. In the States, so the largest group that we know of former refugees
to Shanghai lives in the States today.The second largest group is actually in
Australia. And then the third is in Israel.Some went back to Europe, mostly to Vienna,
but then the majority didn't stay there.OF: And so, when you did these interviews then,
(18:19):
can you remember any specificstories that that stand out?
So one of the interesting things that each and every one of them remembered was
that their parents tried very hard to make surethat the children don't suffer, or acknowledge,
or be aware of the hardships. In a way that,well, they had lots of professors and musicians,
(18:42):
and even an Olympic boxer. They had balletdancers, they had theatre actors. And so
they tried to fill in the time with activities,cultural activities, from back home. And the kids
were allowed to participate in almost everything.And so it was very important for the parents that
(19:03):
the kids would continue their education, andconnect to the culture that they came from.
And so they actually said that there were so manyactivities, and things to do, that there are days
were never dull, they were never boring.They had Sunday schools. They learned Hebrew,
they learned English. They really made use ofwhatever resource they had. And regardless of
(19:31):
the circumstances of what happened around them.OF: And you talk about the circumstances,
so how did the situation changeonce war came here to China?
So to be fair, we need to remember that the Japanese were surrounding Shanghai already in
1932. So, many years before the war in Europeeven broke out. The big change happened in 1941
(19:55):
when Japan actually joined Nazi Germany. And theneverything changed in Shanghai, because if you
were of the wrong nationality, then you becamean enemy of Japan. And that included Americans
and British and others that were here, that inEurope were enemies of Germany automatically
(20:17):
became enemies of Japan here. That meant a lot forthe Jewish communities that lived in Shanghai at
that time. For all of those who were British - andamong the older Jewish community, the Sephardic
Jewish community that was here, many wereBritish citizens - so they were put in prisoners
of war camps. And their lives, of course, changedcompletely. The second group was the Russian Jews,
(20:45):
they were actually the ones that sufferedthe least, because there were still Russians,
and Japan didn't want to mess up with Russia thatmuch. But the third group, our refugees who came
from Europe, there were stateless. So technically,they had no nationality. But of course, the Nazis
recognised them as part of the Third Reich, orthey knew where they came from. So they started
(21:07):
demanding the Japanese to ‘deal with them’, let'ssay it this way. There were all sorts of plans,
some of them to completely kill all of the Jewsthat were here; others to put them in different
types of camps. It ended up with the Japaneseagreeing to put them in a designated area,
which was that area in 虹口 [Hóngkǒu] where themajority of them already lived. And technically
(21:33):
that changed the lives of everyone living inShanghai. Not just the Jews, by the way, but yes.
OF (21:38):
Yeah, of course. And this is where it all goes into context with everyone else's hardships. But
Isn't it ironic that actually, the Jews were firstsaved by Dr. 何 [Hé] in Vienna, and then here,
they were saved by the Japanese?YF: In a way, yes, it is.
And so what is the status now then? Here we are in Shanghai,
you mentioned that there is this Jewish refugeemuseum? Is it known among the Shanghainese
(22:02):
people about this story, or in China in general?YF: I think there is a greater awareness of it
today than it was when I came here, that's forsure. The museum is doing a really good job at
archiving and collecting materials and stories.I think that because of their really good job,
(22:23):
more and more people are aware. Shanghainesefor sure are aware of this. They grew up with,
you know, those stories. So they know thatmuch better than those who are coming in from
other places. But the story gets more and moreattention, let's say, being taught a bit more,
being shared a bit more definitely inrecent years than than it was before.
(22:47):
Well, as you say, it's one part of a very big story when it comes to what happened in
those times.YF: Sure.
But because it's such an interesting connection that most people don't know,
especially where we heard about the OskarSchindler story in Germany, and to have an
equivalent here in Shanghai, which no-one knowsabout was was a real eye-opener. And I agree with
(23:08):
you that the museum does a great job, and thevolunteers there - who are Shanghainese mainly,
right - they’re really passionate. I was reallyimpressed with how much knowledge they had,
and how they wanted to give uptheir spare time to tell others.
YF (23:21):
True. Many of them are volunteers. OF
appreciate that.YF: Thank you.
OF (23:27):
And let's move on now to Part 2. YF
[Part 2]OF: Now Part 2,
there were 10 questions. SoI hope that you're ready.
YF (23:36):
OK. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?YF: OK, so you know how people claim that
you can see the Great Wall fromthe moon? That is not true.
OF (23:49):
Right. Right. I wonder how that rumour got started?
YF (23:53):
Yeah, that that would be interesting research. OF
word or phrase in Chinese?YF: Oh, definitely. 哎哟 [Āiyō].
OF (24:01):
哎哟 [Āiyō]. YF
you know, it's so natural for me now.OF: And it's like “Oh my God” or,
how would you describe it?YF: Yeah, something like “Oh,
gosh” or something like that.OF: Yeah, usually out of frustration, isn't it?
YF (24:16):
Yes. OF
is your favourite destination within China?YF: I've been to 阳朔 [Yángshuò] a few times,
I have good friends there. And I just cannot haveenough of that place. It's just… it's magical.
OF (24:28):
Right. That's the area where there's the mountains jutting up straight from the water.
YF (24:34):
Exactly. OF
miss the most and what would you miss the least?YF: Miss the most will be how easy things can be
here in terms of ordering things online, let'ssay. Or the fact that you can just walk out of
the house with your phone, and you'll haveeverything at the tip of your fingers. It's
(24:54):
really… Sometimes going back home feels like goingback in time. But that's definitely… We've been
spoiled here. Miss the least would be… I loveChinese food, and unfortunately most of it is
made with pork. So yeah, which is a problem forme. So miss the least is the fact that even when
you ask in restaurants “Please don't put pork,nothing with pork”, they would still shred a
(25:20):
little bit of pork on top of it, because “Whatdo you mean, you cannot have it with pork? But
this is the whole flavour of the thing!” Yeah.OF: Oh god, it's so true. It's ubiquitous.
Yes. OF
there'll be a salad. And of course, just…YF: A little bit of pork on top of it.
That's what, you know, gives it the taste.OF: Yes. Oh, funny. Is there anything that
(25:40):
still surprises you about life in China?YF: Yes, I think again, how fast things
happen here. How a decision is madehere, or a direction is chosen,
and things just start racing in that direction.And it's just incredible how there are new things
happening in China almost on a daily basis.And they happen fast. They happen big. Yes,
(26:09):
I think that's still surprising.OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you have made in China?YF: Well, I can definitely say my
best purchase was my 小米 [Xiǎomǐ]. I lovethis phone. It's an extension of my hand,
and my life is within my 小米 [Xiǎomǐ], really.OF: And 小米 [Xiǎomǐ] was famous because they
have two SIM cards, right?YF: Oh yes, two SIM cards,
(26:32):
a really easy plan for roaming servicesoutside of China. I don't even change my
SIM card anymore. I just buy it on the phone.OF: What is your favourite WeChat? sticker?
So I sent you the sticker… OF
…Of Gal Gadot, when she is excited about something, I find myself using that a lot in
(26:54):
China, because again, there are so many newthings happening all the time, you know. And
so I'm excited a lot about daily life in China.And, well it's Gal Gadot, so of course, you know.
OF (27:05):
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV? YF
lyrics of - it’s a pretty old song - is ‘KillingMe Softly’. That's the only song that I actually
remember all the lyrics to. And for somereason they have it in KTV. I try to avoid KTV,
to be honest, as much as I can. But if I do go,and I'm forced to sing, then this is the song
(27:31):
that I probably will choose.OF: Very nice. And finally,
what other China-related media orsources of information do you rely on?
YF (27:38):
Mostly my WeChat, to be honest. So WeChat feed articles, I'm following quite a lot of official
accounts. And we have different groups of peoplesharing different sectors, like industry sectors,
or segments of the economy type of articles.Very, very interesting. And the easiest,
(28:01):
the most useful, and relevant, I would say.Because it's just… again, it's just easy.
OF (28:06):
Well, thank you very much, Yael. YF
And the final question before you leave is, out of everyone who you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interview next?YF: OK, so I had a pretty long list to be honest,
but I had to narrow it down. And I chose torecommend Charlene Lee, who is Co-founder of
(28:28):
‘Ladies Who Tech’ a community of women, toencourage women to get more into tech. So I
think that what she's doing is very importantand really inspiring. And plus, she's a really
cool person. So that's my recommendation.OF: Well, great. I look forward to speaking
with Charlene.YF: Great.
And I really enjoyed our chat today,
(28:49):
thank you again.YF: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So
there are a few interesting photos on socialmedia accompanying this episode. As usual,
please find them on @mosaicofchina_ onInstagram and @mosaicofchina on Facebook,
or add me on my Wechat ID (29:02):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there. We start with
the photo of Yael and her object, which was herwristwatch. Her favourite which sticker is there
too, the one with the excited Gal Gadot. Thereis a chart showing how much pork is eaten in
China versus other meats. You can see clearly howdifficult it is to avoid pork in this country. And
(29:27):
then there are some photos of 阳朔 [Yángshuò],Yael's favourite destination within China.
The other ones need a little more explaining.First, there are some from the Israel Pavilion at
the 2010 Shanghai Expo. Then there's one of 何凤山[Hé Fèngshān] himself. Then the next three are
all from Yael's research. The first one is Yaelinterviewing a local Shanghainese lady who was
(29:50):
a childhood friend of a former refugee. And thenthis is followed by another photo of Yael standing
in front of the Jewish Refugees Museum with aman who was born in Shanghai to a refugee family,
and lived here until the age of about 10. And thefinal picture is an interview Yael did with a 94
year old Jewish lady in New York, whose housein the U.S. is still filled with furniture and
(30:13):
pictures, and other artefacts that she and herhusband brought back from China after the war.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.Thanks for listening, and see you next week.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com