February 24, 2020 • 36 mins
Greg Nance’s business is in China, but his story will resonate with anyone around the world who is addicted to their life pursuits. For Greg, his addictions include ultramarathon racing, and his education business. If you’re a cynic, you’ll immediately be turned off by the idea of listening to someone as positive and accomplished as Greg. And about 5 minutes into our conversation, we talk about this directly. What ensues is an interview that was highly personal and highly unexpected. If you are inspired by co-founders, endurance athletes and motivational speakers, you will love this episode. And if you absolutely loathe co-founders, endurance athletes and motivational speakers, you will love this episode too, I promise. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:44 - Part 1 26:20 - Part 2 34:13 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]GN: There were literally
(00:03):
no tourists there. It was me and a bunch of yaks.OF: I thought that was a racial slur, that. But
you mean the animal.GN: Literally,
yeah.OF: "You bloody yak”.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
I'll keep the intro short today, my guest isGreg Nance, who is an experienced ultramarathon
(00:29):
athlete living in China. We start this chatin… well, in the way that you might expect.
But after the first five minutes or so, theinterview goes into an entirely different
direction. And I don't want to reveal too muchabout that story. So here is our conversation.
[Part 1]OF: I am here in the
studio with Greg Nance. Greg is an educationentrepreneur and an ultramarathon runner.
GN (00:51):
Oscar, thank you for having me. OF
already tell your positivity through justthat one sentence. And I'm going to try and
take the p**s out of you each and every timeyou sound positive during this interview.
It's going to be a lot I know.GN: I'm expecting it. Let's do it.
OF (01:08):
Well, let's jump straight in then. Tell us, what object did you bring that in some
way exemplifies what you're doing here in China?GN: Yes, I brought a water bottle from the Seattle
Seahawks, my local hometown football team. Andthis symbolises, I think, my journey. Because
I've been homesick really since the day I movedto Shanghai actually. I'm on a mission here,
(01:28):
I'm doing some really fun stuff, which I'm excitedto share. But at the same time, my heart is really
back home in Seattle in a lot of senses. And Igot the opportunity of a lifetime when my hometown
Seattle Seahawks surprised me with a little fandocumentary they made about me on Halloween 2016,
where they flew in one of my favourite retiredplayers, and they filmed me running 15 miles
(01:50):
from my apartment on to the sports bar whereI watched the game at two in the morning,
Monday morning. And that to me was just theadventure of a lifetime. And this water bottle
is a gift from them that I drink from every day.OF: We already know you're an ultra marathon
athlete, so you carry it with you onyour runs? Or you have it afterwards?
GN (02:06):
I have it afterwards. It's at my desk. OF
some god awful mix of protein or something?GN: I occasionally will be like, yeah,
some protein powders and things.Although 95% of time It's just
water with some ice cubes. Yeah, keep it simple.OF: Well, in terms of your ultramarathon record,
you probably can run it off pretty easilyat this point. So what is your background?
(02:28):
Yeah, so I started off with the 400 metre in high school. And then I did a little bit of the
800. And what I realised is, I got stronger asI went further. And I just really, really loved
running, loved pushing myself, seeing what I wascapable of. And so I just started going a little
further, a little further. I did my first ultra inDecember 2011. And since then it's been the best
(02:48):
excuse to go travel and see beautiful places. Somy most recent big one was running seven marathons
in seven days on seven continents, startingin Antarctica; up to Cape Town, South Africa;
Perth, Australia; Dubai; Madrid, Santiago, Chile;and then up to Miami, USA, within that seven day
stretch. So that was maybe the hardest I'vedone, just because I was felt sick as a dog,
(03:11):
and I was super tired from the very beginning.OF: The logistics of it is almost as impressive
as running the damn thing, right?GN: It is, and I can take no credit
for any logistics, it was wonderful team oforganisers that picked the shortest distances,
picked comparatively safe places where wecould get there, and then you have to think
about stuff like visas, airport transit time,chances for flight delay, and I was just the
(03:34):
guy jumping out the jet running, getting backon the jet. They had great food, and really
took wonderful care of us as we went through.OF: And how many of you were there that time?
There were 40 that went for it. Up until our cohort,
only 104 people have ever done that actually. So144 folks around the world are as crazy as I am.
OF (03:53):
What did you learn from that one experience? GN
ultramarathon the wheels come off. Like, at somepoint, you're questioning whether I can finish
this race, almost always. And there's sort of ashadow that comes across your mind of “What? Why
am I doing this? Why am I out here? This hurts toomuch. I could just throw in the towel right now”.
Usually that's 80 miles into a 100 mile race,or that's 175 kilometres into 250. In this case,
(04:18):
I started asking myself that question 10 milesinto the second race. I had a stomach ‘flu,
I felt terrible. And really what I learned is,you’ve got to keep resetting your sights and
remembering your ‘why’ every single step. Becauseby mile 40 of this 183 mile adventure, I'm in pain
and I'm literally crying while the doctor isworking on my quads, because they're convulsing
(04:40):
with every heartbeat. And I just never experiencedthat kind of pain before. In that moment,
you can't think about that full marathon, or thefive and a half to go. Instead you're thinking
about “How do I get back on my feet and take thatfirst step”? And for me, that's a metaphor about
life. Sometimes you get knocked down, all of usdo. It's really how you approach that next step.
Just getting off your behind, on your feet.OF: And do you, then, bring this across
(05:03):
from one life to the other?GN: I do bring it across,
my running without a doubt has made me a betterleader, a better manager, I think a better person.
And I think my business work certainly makesme a better runner, in my ability to kind of
size things up and strategise the right way, trainthe right way. It’a a series of building blocks,
day after day after day you lay the foundationin business or leadership or management
(05:23):
or ultra running for that matter, too.OF: And so that was, what year was it?
GN (05:28):
That was February 2019. OF
Recently, yep. OF
in Shanghai, in China, at that point?GN: Yep. Already in Shanghai. Actually,
I trained for it by running shirtlessfor the Antarctic wind chill,
and then doing some sauna cardio forlike the hot stuff that we’d face too.
OF (05:43):
Right. GN
Here's my deal, and you know this already. I look at people like you and I think “Well,
you're showing off. You’re this privileged whitedude. And you've decided to take off around the
world and see all these great places. And youcan say ‘Yeah, it was me’. ‘Mind over matter’
and ‘Great’”. And before I knew you, I would havelooked at you and thought “Well, there's no way I
(06:04):
want to like that person. As much as he wants toinspire people, that’s going to be the opposite
for me”. So when you hear that, is it somethingwhere you just think “Oh, Oscar, you are wrong. In
fact, you are a terrible human being”. Which I am.GN: No, I think there's there's a lot to that.
First of all, I acknowledge how blessed I am.Like, a lot of folks don't have the means to do
(06:25):
this. They don't have the ability to train forthis stuff. So number one, I acknowledge that,
guilty as charged. There's an enormous amountof privilege that enables you to even get to
the start line. At the same time I would sharewith with you and other kind of sceptics that,
really it's about following your smile.In my life experience, which is limited
but I'm slowly accumulating it, when youactually do the things that you love to do,
(06:47):
something really amazing happens. You start tomake real progress at that, you start to share
that gift with your friends, and before you knowit you can become one of the best at whatever it
is that you love to do. For me, it happens tobe running long distances. But I think this
framework applies literally to anything. It canbe grannies knitting, or memorising Bible verses,
or becoming a great online marketer. Whateverit is that you love to do, spend time doing it,
(07:11):
follow your smile, and I think magic starts tohappen. You're happier, you're more fulfilled,
I think you'll be more accomplished, and you'llattract people in your life that are really
‘wind in the sails’ for you as you go forward.OF: So what do you do, then, to talk to people
like myself - at least I'm doing it justto antagonise you, of course - but then the
people who look at you and go, “You know what, Ican't get inspiration from that, because I just
(07:31):
look at someone like you, and I think ‘Yeah,I can't ever attain that level in whatever I
try and do’. So I'm just going to ignore peoplelike you and just stick with us average people”.
GN (07:39):
One of my core beliefs is that every one of us has just way more potential than
we've ever tapped into. And sometimes it takesdifficult circumstances in your life to, like,
really start to even pursue that path. I grew upin a really wonderful place, little Bainbridge
Island off the coast of Seattle. It’s the sizeof Manhattan, so it's a large island, but only
about 20,000 people when I was growing up. Soan idyllic, idyllic place to grow up. But at the
(08:04):
same time you deal with challenges, you dealwith setbacks and obstacles. For me, kind of a
defining one early in my life, at 16 the real rolemodel and super mentor in my life was my granddad,
Grandpa Charlie. And he goes from being kinda likethe strongest person that I've ever met - just,
like, so much like resilience and resolve - andthe next day, he suffers a debilitating stroke,
(08:25):
and he kind of fades away. And, you know, thiswave of sadness and anxiety and despair, and then
depression washes over me. And, you know, at thatage, I didn't have the kind of maturity or the
emotional capacity to really, like, work throughthat. And that led me down kind of a dark path,
(08:48):
where I began medicating with malt liquor - likeOld English and High Gravity malt liquor - which
for the uninformed, is basically a double potencybeer, and the reason why you drink it is it’s
cheap, and it's powerful. First on, like, weekendswith my friends, and then even on school nights,
and then right after school, and before I knewit I was in the parking lot drinking malt liquor
(09:09):
before classes, or at a lunch break, before tennispractice, before running. And I became reliant
on that in order to feel confident and happy. Irelied on that to just kind of feel normal. And
it usually doesn't just stop with, you know, maltliquor, and it didn't for me. I started drinking
vodka with that malt liquor. And then that wasn'tenough either, so I started smoking blunts,
(09:34):
and joints. And when that wasn't strongenough with the vodka mix, I began doing
some opiates as well, Percocet and Vicodin.That was a seven year struggle actually,
aged 16 to 23. Most of the days between 16 and23, I was drunk, or high, or both, in order to
self medicate. And a lot of that pain began withmy Grandpa Charlie's passing, and then it was just
(09:59):
Dealing with the stresses of university life, orthe challenges or anxiety of working on startup,
or the difficulties of leadership. Everyone of those situations just felt better
if I was a little buzzed, or a lot buzzed.OF: Well, what you say is just the textbook
way that people fall into this addiction,where it just becomes the routine.
Mmm. OF
(10:21):
And so is that the story now that you say? Or isit something which you largely keep to yourself?
Yeah, it's tough man. I've been processing this in the last several months,
particularly working with a mindset coach,a.k.a. a therapist. Shout out to my bud Jeff,
for being an awesome presence in my life,and helping me work through this stuff. Yeah,
I was in denial during, number one. So I knew Ihad a problem, but at the same time I was lying
(10:45):
to even my closest friends, my family. You know,my parents had no idea. And I was basically able
to sober up with the help of just spending allof my money on drugs and alcohol. So, like, I ran
out of money. And that made going cold turkey mucheasier, when you’re just completely out of money,
your debit card’s being denied as you go out.By the same token, in the years since - I've,
(11:08):
you know, I haven't drank for a good stretch now- that said, I haven't been yet as forthcoming
or open or honest about it, because I haven't hadreally the chance to kind of reflect and process.
Because I think in a lot of ways I've thought ofmyself as “Oh, but like you're some successful
guy, you're not some alcoholic or some addict”.And there seems to this connotation and stigma.
(11:28):
And what I've learned now - recently, in partfrom these conversations with my therapist - is
that addiction, it affects so many… 20 millionAmericans directly are addicted to alcohol,
or substance abuse. And if you think about allthe sons, daughters, moms, dads, partners, bosses,
cousins, uncles, it's significant. Everybodyis a degree removed from someone suffering from
(11:50):
addiction. And what I've kind of come to termswith my own journey is “Look, I can be successful,
or I can be on my path towards success asI define it, AND be someone working through
an addiction to alcohol and substances”. Andboth those things can be true. And in fact,
me being open about some of the challenges thatI faced, I think can help other people deal with
(12:10):
their own challenges. And my aim really is to helppeople - around the kitchen table, or with their
partner, or with their child, or with theirparent - be able to have those conversations,
and move to a place of love and support andunderstanding. Because this stuff is really
really tough. And when you're in the midst ofit, you feel completely isolated. Even though
I have the most loving sister and brother andparents and just wonderful friends of my life,
(12:33):
I felt so isolated, I had to deceive each ofthem. And when my sister said “Hey, like you know,
it looked like you really drank a lot last night,and you're drinking a lot right now”, that's from
a place of pure love, but at the same time what Iheard in her voice was “Oh, she's accusing me of
something. Let me just like pull back and denyeverything.” And, you know “I work hard and I
play hard,” whatever, you know. Hear the sillinessthere, and acknowledge the challenge that you're
(12:57):
facing, and get the love support and help thatyou need to feel reconnected, reintegrated,
and define your path as you go forwardOF: Well, you must have been very high
functioning for them to have not known.GN: I was, and that was a big challenge. You know,
I could play very good tennis with several drinksdown the hatch. I could go to debate tournaments
(13:17):
high as a kite, which I did. I sat for the ACTintoxicated, and I did fine at it. I was Student
Government President at the University of Chicago,I’ve lead meetings intoxicated. I was one of the
leaders of the investment club during college,I did that drunk and high all the time. So yeah,
I was high functioning and that that was the thekind of curse about it. Because if I had been low
(13:43):
functioning, well, the warning signs would beenobvious to everybody. But I got good grades,
I got good test scores, I was a multi-sportathlete, I had a lot of friends that were
really good people. And so my parents, how wouldthey have known? Or my brother and sister? Just
thinking “Oh, Greg likes to party”, whichwas true, I thoroughly enjoyed all of that
until it began kind of overwhelming me. Andthen it's like this haunting grip that you
(14:07):
feel. Like you know there's something grabbingyou, gripping you there, and yet you feel kind
of powerless too. You know, I tried quittinga hundred times. And I just couldn't do it,
because every single time I made the vow… Usuallyon, like, a Saturday morning when my head was
pounding, and I was thinking about somethingreally, really dumb I did. Or I feel my jaws
hurt because I like got in a fight last night.Or I woke up with a $900 ER bill in my pocket,
(14:30):
had no recollection of any of that. And it'sjust like, “I am so obviously over the line here,
and over the edge.” And I would commit to thatwith full sincerity 8am, 9am Saturday morning.
And then at 6pm, I'm taking my first Vicodin, orI'm doing my first shots. And saying that out loud
now, like, it makes no sense. Like, how did thathappen? Like, how did you let yourself get into
(14:54):
that? And yet it's a real thing, and I lived it.OF: Well, the worst thing about all this is that
I can't be mean to you about your optimism. Ohdear. Well, thanks so much for sharing that.
Hey. OF
ask next would be, so is this why then you arenow addicted to running? You use this as your
therapy in some way? Or is that just too simple?GN: No, there's truth in it. I'll let you under
(15:19):
the the curtain here, to say that the day mydebit card got refused in Cambridge, England,
it was a day of just immense shame for me. BillGates gave me a scholarship to go to Cambridge
for grad school. One of the proudest… You know,seeing the look on like my parents face was just
such a wonderful feeling, my friends givingme kudos, just so special, like, I've achieved
(15:41):
all these wonderful goals aged 23, I go off tobusiness school there. And within two months,
I've partied through the very generous stipend Iwas given for graduate school. I'm now absolutely
dead broke. I'm going to try to buy anotherfifth of vodka - it’s probably my, like,
fourth or fifth that week. And the the attendantthere, who is kind of eyeballing me like “Wow I've
been seeing more and more your face these lastcouple of weeks”, he lets me know “Hey, like,
(16:04):
sorry, your card's been declined”. And thatmoment, I walked back to my little dormitory,
and I'm so frustrated and angry and pissedand confused. I've got rent due in a week,
I need to fly home for Christmas, like all thesebig expenses coming up, but what am I going to do?
The only thing I can think to do is like, I wantto punch a wall. But I don't actually don't want
(16:25):
to do that. I instead lace up my running shoes,and I just kind of sprint out into the hills
outside Cambridge, just run and run and run andrun. And it turns into probably a 15-20 mile run,
where I'm just like, running myself ragged. And atthe end of it, my legs and lungs are like totally
shot, totally dead. And yet, I felt in thatmoment that I turned some small corner. Like,
(16:48):
that feeling had replaced some of the withdrawalsI was feeling, some of the simmering anger and
frustration and embarrassment and shame thatwas welling up inside me. And from that moment,
I realised that the days where I'm running,I've got a smile. The days where I'm running,
I feel a little bit more kind of in control, alittle bit more present, a little more relaxed.
(17:08):
Because I still deal with stress, and I have a lotof anxiety. And I've put myself in positions with
my work where it's not a low stress occupationto CEO a company, particularly in China,
every day there's stuff that comes up. And youknow, I've had people joke with me like “Yo,
you need to go spend a year or two on a beach,like just recoup”. And that's also not my speed,
(17:28):
that's not my style. And so it's tough, it'slike you’ve got to find ways to kind of take
care of yourself, and to recharge your batteries.And for me running is that. It is therapeutic,
it’s been a wonderful way to connect with a lotof folks that have dealt with similar issues in
their past. And I found many folks in theultra community, a lot of them are running
from something or running towards something. AndI think, at first I was "Oh, that's not quite me”,
like “I just run because I like running, andI run because I get to see the world”. And
(17:52):
those things are partially true. But I think thefuller story is, I'm also running to remake myself
as a stronger, more resilient person. And I'mrunning as a way to channel a lot of those kind
of negative emotions and feelings into somethingthat is a little more positive. And my favourite
part about all this is actually sharing. Ilove getting in front of school children,
like going to an elementary or middle school, andtalking about ‘following your smile.’ Running’s
(18:16):
worked for me, and I share what's worked aboutthat. And I started learning about other folks’
journeys too, ranging from doing the crosswordeach morning, or meditating, or stretching,
or swimming. And a lot of that is like puttingyour brain or your body to use in new ways, so
that you can still channel a lot of those feelingsand emotions that are challenging to work through.
OF (18:36):
And so that's the connection you have with your business now, right? Because you
do work in education. So that's what gets youin front of kids. Like, what is your business?
GN (18:44):
Yeah, we're called dyad.com. And for those that have studied a little bit of ancient Greek
or Latin,’dyad' means 'consisting of two parts’,which for us is the present self - where you are
today - and then your potential self, what youcan become. And we are a mentorship platform
that helps people reach their dyad, to merge theirpresent self with their potential self. We connect
(19:09):
Chinese students primarily - although actually weoperate globally, it’s an online platform - with
experts from their target universities, tohelp them earn scholarships. And the thing
I'm proudest of - after serving 2,100 clientsover the last seven years - is that we've helped
folks earn over $27 million in scholarships.OF: Yeah, you’re making it even harder for me to
(19:30):
hate you now, you see? OK, let me ask you, so yousaid that there were stresses in this business,
I'm sure there are.GN: Yep.
OF (19:36):
And there would have been times that would have made you - in other times of your life - go
straight to the drink…GN: Yeah.
… Go straight to medication… GN
… So talk me through one of the hardest times that you had in the business,
and then tell me how you got out of it.GN: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the single
hardest was, I actually started the company witha close friend. We'd gone to business school
together. A brilliant, brilliant individualwho was just so creative, so hard working,
(20:02):
really put heart and soul into the business. Andwe had really well-overlapping strength. So where
I may be a strong marketer, he's a really,really strong operator, for instance. And
where I like the technology side, he really likesthe sales side, for instance. And so we had the
ingredients of actually a really good partnershipto do some really cool things. Unfortunately,
(20:23):
business is really stressful, I would dealwith that stress by going for a run, and
thinking through things, working through stuff.Whereas I think he felt increasingly isolated,
and just overwhelmed by a lot of the stressors,and didn't have an outlet for that, and just would
work and work and work. And that led to a varietyof differences of opinion. And differences of
(20:47):
opinion I think actually are very healthy ina business, but that led to increasing gaps,
and then sort of chasms. And it led to a seriesof just really, really difficult conversations,
that manifested in a psychotic episode wherethis individual was unable to restrain himself
from assaulting one of our colleagues. I end upgetting in the middle of it, catch some teeth to
(21:10):
the shin. I’m, you know, literally bit in ouroffice. He's ordered to get 24 hours of anger
management counselling, I'm ordered to get atetanus shot. The fallout from that, with this
brilliant friend of yours who's just sufferingfrom really, really some dark stuff - and again,
you'd like to help, you'd like to be there, andat the same time you're so angry and frustrated
about what this is doing to this business you'vebeen working your tail off for years - was really,
(21:35):
really tough. And you're losing this friendship,and you feel like you're gonna lose this business
altogether. And that wasn't even the end of it, heends up coming back with a police officer, trying
to get the deed snatched. You know, “I want thechop back’, and ‘You stole this company from me’,
and just over a year of drip-drip-drip drama.Just as soon as you think you've put that out,
(21:59):
you know, he's back. And this time, he's hackingthe website. Our homepage got hacked by this
gentleman, and the homepage - instead of reading‘dyad.com' it's ‘Stop fooling people around you,
Greg, or you will be **** punished’. Size 100red font on our homepage. And I wake up the next
(22:20):
morning, five in the morning going out for my run,and my WeChat’s blowing up with clients saying
“Oh, my gosh, what's happened?” And it's like,“What?” Like, I can't believe what I'm seeing. And
you know, our product manager’s giving me a call,just freaking out, and we’re trying to figure out
how this breach even happened, what keys thisgentleman still has. And so that was a very,
very rough year, you know, 2014-2015. It's hardenough trying to grow a business under the best
(22:44):
circumstances. But particularly if you've got afox in the henhouse loose there, or you've got
someone in the cockpit who's grabbing at thecontrols, trying to take the plane down. Yeah,
that was enormously challenging. And itwas tough, because that was an individual
who I had just an enormous amount of trustin, going into this. And a quarter million
dollars disappears.OF: I’m sorry, what?
GN (23:05):
Yeah, there's also a major theft of a quarter million dollars in the midst of all this. So yeah,
that that was enormously challenging on allfronts. And I think that really proved to
me “Hey, if I can stay sober through thisseries of episodes, then I'm ready”. Like,
I'm ready to face the challenges of life, becauseI think this is gonna be a particularly acute one,
(23:25):
that really dogged me for quite a while.OF: Wow, well that's not the answer I was
expecting as well. So, gosh. And I can reallyrelate, because I’m the Co-Founder of my own
company as well, and I founded it with avery close friend of mine. And, you know,
we were respectful all the way through. Wehad our differences, and it's very easy to
(23:47):
focus on those. But then when I hear a storylike yours, you know, it does make me think,
“Wow, for all the differences that we had, I thinkboth of us were lucky to have found each other”.
Mmm. OF
end, or are you estranged? Like, what's he doing?GN: Good question. I'm not quite sure what
he's up to. We're no longer in touch. Yeah,given kind of the nature of the falling out,
(24:10):
I thought "Hey, some time and distance iswhat the what the doctor ordered here.”
OF (24:14):
Well I'm looking at your object here, the Seattle water bottle. It makes me just think,
to wrap up this part of the conversation,what about your home, your family? Like,
how have they dealt with first hearing aboutyour issues? And then where you are today, like,
what’s your relationship like with them now?GN: They've been very, very supportive. They
understand what it takes - a lot of hard work,a lot of determination, dedication - to get
(24:36):
this going, and keep it going. They've been outto visit, been out to see my day-to-day-to-day
out here in Shanghai. And as I mentionedat the outset, I’m still really homesick,
and I'm eager for even more time back home,because there's a lot of special moments
that you miss out when you're 7,000 miles away.OF: Well, thanks very much. You've opened up a
lot. And, you know, there are parts of that storythat I didn't know as well. I really - you know,
(25:00):
you don't need to hear this from me - but Iencourage you to really own this story more and
more, because I think that's what people need tohear. Especially in China, where I feel that the
stigma of drug addiction is really strong. AndI don't even think that they're open to hearing
about how people get through that. They just seeit as an evil, and that's the end of the story.
GN (25:18):
Yeah. So my big plan on this is I'm going to celebrate 3,000 days of sobriety. And actually to
mark that, I plan to be in New York City thatday, to put one foot in the Atlantic Ocean,
and then to begin running across the UnitedStates. And my aim is to finish in my hometown
of Seattle with a foot in the Pacific Ocean, some75 days later. And as part of this, I'd like to
(25:43):
tell stories of sobriety, and tell stories ofaddiction, how folks have overcome addiction.
To demonstrate that overcoming addiction isa marathon, not a sprint. My hope would be
that some of those efforts are able to inspireand spark authentic Chinese stories as well,
because these issues are real, and it takes aseries of dialogues to begin cracking that stigma.
(26:07):
And it won't happen with one guy running,it’s going to be a series of milestones.
OF (26:11):
Thank you, Greg. GN
Let’s move on to Part 2. GN
[Part 2]OF: Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?GN: My favourite China-related fact is that
the 黄浦 [Huángpǔ] River, the riverthat flows through Shanghai here,
was actually excavated and dredged to be createdaround 2,500 years ago during the Warring States
(26:39):
period. It starts around 松江 [Sōngjiāng],which is like far southwest Shanghai,
it's a district. And it winds its way merrilyover the Bund, 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ], on to the Yangtze,
which drains into the East China Sea.OF: OK. Number 2, do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?GN: 一山不容二虎 [Yīshān bùróng èrhǔ],
which is ‘one mountain cannot have twotigers'. And for me, that's a great
(27:05):
parable about leadership. Ultimately, you needaccountability and you need people responsible.
Just like that one tiger on that one mountain.OF: OK. Is that something about having
two Co-Founders?GN: It might be.
Oh dear. Number 3, what is your favourite destination within China?
GN (27:22):
I've got two. So I love the Gobi desert in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] with the 天山 [Tiānshān] mountains.
Just absolutely amazing, totally recommendthat. My second is 哈巴雪山 [Hǎbā xuěshān],
Haba Snow Mountain. Totally beautiful. It'sover 5,000 metres tall, and you actually have
a beautiful view into Tiger Leaping Gorge. Andwhen I went there were literally no tourists
there. It was me and a bunch of yaks.OF: I thought that was a racial
(27:46):
slur, that. But you mean the animal.GN: Literally, yeah.
OF (27:51):
“You bloody yak”. Oh, oh, it’s a yak. GN
Number 4, if you left China, what would be the thing that you missed the most,
and the thing that you missed the least?GN: The thing I miss the most is the
energy and dynamism of China. You can't reallyreplicate that. It's really really magical here.
I love that. The thing I would miss the least isnear-death experiences with 饿了么 [Èleme] drivers
(28:15):
and scooters, flying down sidewalks.That still terrifies me to this day.
Yes, I have been hit by one of those. GN
ago and it still stings me to think about it.OF: I have the scars to prove it too. So after
this we can we can compare them. Is there anythingthat still surprises you about life in China?
GN (28:35):
I feel like I've seen a good deal after near seven years here. One thing that I think will
probably always shock me and surprise me is seeingthe opulent luxury and wealth and privilege in
such close proximity to the poverty and squalor.That is just really tough to see. You know,
(28:55):
I've come out of a business meeting in a reallynice office building or at a really nice dinner,
and you've got a shanty right next door.And that happens all over the world,
but it's profoundly visible here in Shanghai.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
or to hang out?GN: One of my favourite things
to do is just go on long runs where I just unplug,I'm thinking, and I run and run and run until I'm
(29:20):
so hungry or I don’t think I can keep going. AndI will just jump into the random hole-in-the-wall
dumpling or noodle or rice place right there. Andmore often than not, just like a really wonderful
granny or grandpa is cooking up somethingdelicious. We'll have a special moment there,
I'll usually get a selfie in with them. And thenI'll have the fuel and the carbs to then run back
(29:43):
to 静安 [Jìng’ān] where I'm based. That's kindof my favourite actually, of everything. And
I feel like I've seen a couple hundred wonderfulholes-in-the-wall at this point. For listeners who
may be looking for recommendations in Shanghai,I love The Press, it’s maybe my favourite coffee
shop. It's down in the 黄浦 [Huángpǔ] district.It is the site of one of the old newspaper
presses. And so it's beautiful Greco Roman stylearchitecture. And it's relatively affordable,
(30:09):
you know, americanos and coffee there. It’s justa really beautiful place to go do some work,
set some goals. And then my favourite kind of hangout… I'm not a big night owl anymore, I go to bed
relatively early, I'm pretty boring. But I do likeCo.Cheese, which is like a grilled cheese spot,
real close to Chinaccelerator, which is whereI'm based. And so yeah, that's a very tasty spot,
(30:30):
if you’re ever craving some some grilled cheese.OF: What is the best or worst purchase
you have made in China?GN: Let me go to the worst,
because this is more more top of mind. Myfirst trip to China was Beijing in 2009.
And I got a wonderful Mao watch. And it's like,you know, Chairman Mao with his two hands - his
(30:50):
two arms - as the seconds to minute clock. And Ihaggled it down to something like 20 RMB, which I
felt was a pretty good deal, because it started at200. And by the time I had gotten on the aeroplane
to fly home some eight hours later, the watch hadstopped working. And I was like “Oh my god, like
total swindling here”. My sister still loved thegift. So it may not have actually been the worst,
(31:11):
but that comes to mind for sure.OF: That still eats away at you.
It does. Deep in my soul. OF
Yes, my two favourite WeChat stickers. One is Derek Zoolander,
and he's dancing with his friends in his open airJeep. And that's from one of my favourite movies,
Zoolander. And the second is the rapper Drake.He's got a song called Hotline Bling, where he
(31:37):
does this kind of fun dance. And there's a stickerwhere he's actually playing Fruit Ninja, which is
fantastic. Iconic video, It's a silly one.OF: Thank you, that's going on social media
afterwards.GN: Boom.
OF (31:50):
What is your go to song to sing at KTV? GN
It's a beautiful song. And it's fun to introduceit, because none of my Chinese friends have heard
that before. And so when available - it's notalways - but that's what I like. What's always
available, that I've been talked into a numberof times, and I've sort of had to claim it as
a result, is a lady named Natalie Imbrugliasung ‘Torn', which is like a 1998 super pop
(32:13):
hit or something. And colleagues make mesing that one when we go out, because I do
give a pretty good rendition. Thank you, Natalie.OF: Oh, wow. Well, of course I know that because
I'm a Brit. And we were fed a diet of Australiansoaps. And she is an Australian soap star.
GN (32:26):
Oh, there we go, OK. OF
Did not. OF
me the most out of the whole conversationnow? It’s that actually you can go to karaoke,
and you're completely sober.GN: That's right. I've
got a seven year streak going.OF: And finally, what other China-related media or
sources of information in general do you rely on?GN: Yeah, so my favourite is a group called China
(32:51):
HIVE. And they do really good technology andinnovation. So if you're at all interested
in like “What's the startup scene like?” or“Where's China tech going?” or Western tech
in China, these guys at China hive doa really, really good job covering it.
OF (33:05):
Very nice, thank you so much. Well, altogether, you know, that's been a very
eye-opening conversation with you, Greg. I reallyappreciate that. And I think people who listen
to this are also going to be surprised too,especially ones who we know together from IPWS.
GN (33:19):
Absolutely. International Professional Women’s Society. Wonderful conference,
wonderful programming, and some good B-Listspeakers like myself and A-Listers like Oscar.
OF (33:29):
You said the right thing, I will definitely not edit that out from the final version. And
finally, what I ask everyone before theyleave is, out of everyone you know in China,
for the next series of Mosaic of China, whowould you recommend that I interview next?
GN (33:42):
I recommend my friend, who I think is one of the most interesting people in all
China, a fellow named Alex Shoer. And Alex isthe founder and CEO of a company called Seeder
which is helping factories and manufacturersin China use green energy and solar power
for their fueling needs. He's wonderful, veryinsightful, and I think would be just a great
(34:03):
resource for Mosaic of China listeners.OF: Done. Well I look forward to meeting
Alex and thank you again, Greg.GN: Hundred percent, Oscar, my pleasure.
[Outro]OF: So I hope you can
understand why this episode is a little longerthan usual. The 25-minute format of Mosaic of
China can cope with one twist in the story, buteverything starts to derail when there are two.
(34:24):
So I'll hurry up with this and just say, pleasecheck out the accompanying images to this episode
with Greg. You can find them at @mosaicofchina_on Instagram and @mosaicofchina on Facebook,
or join the conversation on WeChatby adding me on my ID: mosaicofchina,
and I'll add you to the group myself. There's hisobject, his favourite stickers, some race photos,
even a couple of shots of Greg from hispartying days, and a whole bunch more.
(34:48):
And also Greg's comment about trying toavoid getting knocked over by scooters
on the pavements of China is a greatexcuse for me to remind you about last
week's episode in which Roz talked aboutthe concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’. If only
Greg and I had listened to Roz, neitherof us would be comparing scars today.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, artworkby Danny Newell, and extra support from
(35:10):
Milo de Prieto and Alston Gong. And a quickCoronavirus update, it's now the end of February
and more shops and restaurants are starting toreopen this week, at least here in Shanghai. I
ventured out this weekend and in a lot of placespeople are being seated with at least one table
separating each party. And where there are lines,I saw patrons being asked to space themselves out.
(35:30):
So a few interesting measures there that atleast I saw, allowing for these small signs
of life returning back to normal. I hope to havemore progress to report when we're back next week.
[Trailer]GN: There were literally
(00:03):
no tourists there. It was me and a bunch of yaks.OF: I thought that was a racial slur, that. But
you mean the animal.GN: Literally,
yeah.OF: "You bloody yak”.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
I'll keep the intro short today, my guest isGreg Nance, who is an experienced ultramarathon
(00:29):
athlete living in China. We start this chatin… well, in the way that you might expect.
But after the first five minutes or so, theinterview goes into an entirely different
direction. And I don't want to reveal too muchabout that story. So here is our conversation.
[Part 1]OF: I am here in the
studio with Greg Nance. Greg is an educationentrepreneur and an ultramarathon runner.
GN (00:51):
Oscar, thank you for having me. OF
already tell your positivity through justthat one sentence. And I'm going to try and
take the p**s out of you each and every timeyou sound positive during this interview.
It's going to be a lot I know.GN: I'm expecting it. Let's do it.
OF (01:08):
Well, let's jump straight in then. Tell us, what object did you bring that in some
way exemplifies what you're doing here in China?GN: Yes, I brought a water bottle from the Seattle
Seahawks, my local hometown football team. Andthis symbolises, I think, my journey. Because
I've been homesick really since the day I movedto Shanghai actually. I'm on a mission here,
(01:28):
I'm doing some really fun stuff, which I'm excitedto share. But at the same time, my heart is really
back home in Seattle in a lot of senses. And Igot the opportunity of a lifetime when my hometown
Seattle Seahawks surprised me with a little fandocumentary they made about me on Halloween 2016,
where they flew in one of my favourite retiredplayers, and they filmed me running 15 miles
(01:50):
from my apartment on to the sports bar whereI watched the game at two in the morning,
Monday morning. And that to me was just theadventure of a lifetime. And this water bottle
is a gift from them that I drink from every day.OF: We already know you're an ultra marathon
athlete, so you carry it with you onyour runs? Or you have it afterwards?
GN (02:06):
I have it afterwards. It's at my desk. OF
some god awful mix of protein or something?GN: I occasionally will be like, yeah,
some protein powders and things.Although 95% of time It's just
water with some ice cubes. Yeah, keep it simple.OF: Well, in terms of your ultramarathon record,
you probably can run it off pretty easilyat this point. So what is your background?
(02:28):
Yeah, so I started off with the 400 metre in high school. And then I did a little bit of the
800. And what I realised is, I got stronger asI went further. And I just really, really loved
running, loved pushing myself, seeing what I wascapable of. And so I just started going a little
further, a little further. I did my first ultra inDecember 2011. And since then it's been the best
(02:48):
excuse to go travel and see beautiful places. Somy most recent big one was running seven marathons
in seven days on seven continents, startingin Antarctica; up to Cape Town, South Africa;
Perth, Australia; Dubai; Madrid, Santiago, Chile;and then up to Miami, USA, within that seven day
stretch. So that was maybe the hardest I'vedone, just because I was felt sick as a dog,
(03:11):
and I was super tired from the very beginning.OF: The logistics of it is almost as impressive
as running the damn thing, right?GN: It is, and I can take no credit
for any logistics, it was wonderful team oforganisers that picked the shortest distances,
picked comparatively safe places where wecould get there, and then you have to think
about stuff like visas, airport transit time,chances for flight delay, and I was just the
(03:34):
guy jumping out the jet running, getting backon the jet. They had great food, and really
took wonderful care of us as we went through.OF: And how many of you were there that time?
There were 40 that went for it. Up until our cohort,
only 104 people have ever done that actually. So144 folks around the world are as crazy as I am.
OF (03:53):
What did you learn from that one experience? GN
ultramarathon the wheels come off. Like, at somepoint, you're questioning whether I can finish
this race, almost always. And there's sort of ashadow that comes across your mind of “What? Why
am I doing this? Why am I out here? This hurts toomuch. I could just throw in the towel right now”.
Usually that's 80 miles into a 100 mile race,or that's 175 kilometres into 250. In this case,
(04:18):
I started asking myself that question 10 milesinto the second race. I had a stomach ‘flu,
I felt terrible. And really what I learned is,you’ve got to keep resetting your sights and
remembering your ‘why’ every single step. Becauseby mile 40 of this 183 mile adventure, I'm in pain
and I'm literally crying while the doctor isworking on my quads, because they're convulsing
(04:40):
with every heartbeat. And I just never experiencedthat kind of pain before. In that moment,
you can't think about that full marathon, or thefive and a half to go. Instead you're thinking
about “How do I get back on my feet and take thatfirst step”? And for me, that's a metaphor about
life. Sometimes you get knocked down, all of usdo. It's really how you approach that next step.
Just getting off your behind, on your feet.OF: And do you, then, bring this across
(05:03):
from one life to the other?GN: I do bring it across,
my running without a doubt has made me a betterleader, a better manager, I think a better person.
And I think my business work certainly makesme a better runner, in my ability to kind of
size things up and strategise the right way, trainthe right way. It’a a series of building blocks,
day after day after day you lay the foundationin business or leadership or management
(05:23):
or ultra running for that matter, too.OF: And so that was, what year was it?
GN (05:28):
That was February 2019. OF
Recently, yep. OF
in Shanghai, in China, at that point?GN: Yep. Already in Shanghai. Actually,
I trained for it by running shirtlessfor the Antarctic wind chill,
and then doing some sauna cardio forlike the hot stuff that we’d face too.
OF (05:43):
Right. GN
Here's my deal, and you know this already. I look at people like you and I think “Well,
you're showing off. You’re this privileged whitedude. And you've decided to take off around the
world and see all these great places. And youcan say ‘Yeah, it was me’. ‘Mind over matter’
and ‘Great’”. And before I knew you, I would havelooked at you and thought “Well, there's no way I
(06:04):
want to like that person. As much as he wants toinspire people, that’s going to be the opposite
for me”. So when you hear that, is it somethingwhere you just think “Oh, Oscar, you are wrong. In
fact, you are a terrible human being”. Which I am.GN: No, I think there's there's a lot to that.
First of all, I acknowledge how blessed I am.Like, a lot of folks don't have the means to do
(06:25):
this. They don't have the ability to train forthis stuff. So number one, I acknowledge that,
guilty as charged. There's an enormous amountof privilege that enables you to even get to
the start line. At the same time I would sharewith with you and other kind of sceptics that,
really it's about following your smile.In my life experience, which is limited
but I'm slowly accumulating it, when youactually do the things that you love to do,
(06:47):
something really amazing happens. You start tomake real progress at that, you start to share
that gift with your friends, and before you knowit you can become one of the best at whatever it
is that you love to do. For me, it happens tobe running long distances. But I think this
framework applies literally to anything. It canbe grannies knitting, or memorising Bible verses,
or becoming a great online marketer. Whateverit is that you love to do, spend time doing it,
(07:11):
follow your smile, and I think magic starts tohappen. You're happier, you're more fulfilled,
I think you'll be more accomplished, and you'llattract people in your life that are really
‘wind in the sails’ for you as you go forward.OF: So what do you do, then, to talk to people
like myself - at least I'm doing it justto antagonise you, of course - but then the
people who look at you and go, “You know what, Ican't get inspiration from that, because I just
(07:31):
look at someone like you, and I think ‘Yeah,I can't ever attain that level in whatever I
try and do’. So I'm just going to ignore peoplelike you and just stick with us average people”.
GN (07:39):
One of my core beliefs is that every one of us has just way more potential than
we've ever tapped into. And sometimes it takesdifficult circumstances in your life to, like,
really start to even pursue that path. I grew upin a really wonderful place, little Bainbridge
Island off the coast of Seattle. It’s the sizeof Manhattan, so it's a large island, but only
about 20,000 people when I was growing up. Soan idyllic, idyllic place to grow up. But at the
(08:04):
same time you deal with challenges, you dealwith setbacks and obstacles. For me, kind of a
defining one early in my life, at 16 the real rolemodel and super mentor in my life was my granddad,
Grandpa Charlie. And he goes from being kinda likethe strongest person that I've ever met - just,
like, so much like resilience and resolve - andthe next day, he suffers a debilitating stroke,
(08:25):
and he kind of fades away. And, you know, thiswave of sadness and anxiety and despair, and then
depression washes over me. And, you know, at thatage, I didn't have the kind of maturity or the
emotional capacity to really, like, work throughthat. And that led me down kind of a dark path,
(08:48):
where I began medicating with malt liquor - likeOld English and High Gravity malt liquor - which
for the uninformed, is basically a double potencybeer, and the reason why you drink it is it’s
cheap, and it's powerful. First on, like, weekendswith my friends, and then even on school nights,
and then right after school, and before I knewit I was in the parking lot drinking malt liquor
(09:09):
before classes, or at a lunch break, before tennispractice, before running. And I became reliant
on that in order to feel confident and happy. Irelied on that to just kind of feel normal. And
it usually doesn't just stop with, you know, maltliquor, and it didn't for me. I started drinking
vodka with that malt liquor. And then that wasn'tenough either, so I started smoking blunts,
(09:34):
and joints. And when that wasn't strongenough with the vodka mix, I began doing
some opiates as well, Percocet and Vicodin.That was a seven year struggle actually,
aged 16 to 23. Most of the days between 16 and23, I was drunk, or high, or both, in order to
self medicate. And a lot of that pain began withmy Grandpa Charlie's passing, and then it was just
(09:59):
Dealing with the stresses of university life, orthe challenges or anxiety of working on startup,
or the difficulties of leadership. Everyone of those situations just felt better
if I was a little buzzed, or a lot buzzed.OF: Well, what you say is just the textbook
way that people fall into this addiction,where it just becomes the routine.
Mmm. OF
(10:21):
And so is that the story now that you say? Or isit something which you largely keep to yourself?
Yeah, it's tough man. I've been processing this in the last several months,
particularly working with a mindset coach,a.k.a. a therapist. Shout out to my bud Jeff,
for being an awesome presence in my life,and helping me work through this stuff. Yeah,
I was in denial during, number one. So I knew Ihad a problem, but at the same time I was lying
(10:45):
to even my closest friends, my family. You know,my parents had no idea. And I was basically able
to sober up with the help of just spending allof my money on drugs and alcohol. So, like, I ran
out of money. And that made going cold turkey mucheasier, when you’re just completely out of money,
your debit card’s being denied as you go out.By the same token, in the years since - I've,
(11:08):
you know, I haven't drank for a good stretch now- that said, I haven't been yet as forthcoming
or open or honest about it, because I haven't hadreally the chance to kind of reflect and process.
Because I think in a lot of ways I've thought ofmyself as “Oh, but like you're some successful
guy, you're not some alcoholic or some addict”.And there seems to this connotation and stigma.
(11:28):
And what I've learned now - recently, in partfrom these conversations with my therapist - is
that addiction, it affects so many… 20 millionAmericans directly are addicted to alcohol,
or substance abuse. And if you think about allthe sons, daughters, moms, dads, partners, bosses,
cousins, uncles, it's significant. Everybodyis a degree removed from someone suffering from
(11:50):
addiction. And what I've kind of come to termswith my own journey is “Look, I can be successful,
or I can be on my path towards success asI define it, AND be someone working through
an addiction to alcohol and substances”. Andboth those things can be true. And in fact,
me being open about some of the challenges thatI faced, I think can help other people deal with
(12:10):
their own challenges. And my aim really is to helppeople - around the kitchen table, or with their
partner, or with their child, or with theirparent - be able to have those conversations,
and move to a place of love and support andunderstanding. Because this stuff is really
really tough. And when you're in the midst ofit, you feel completely isolated. Even though
I have the most loving sister and brother andparents and just wonderful friends of my life,
(12:33):
I felt so isolated, I had to deceive each ofthem. And when my sister said “Hey, like you know,
it looked like you really drank a lot last night,and you're drinking a lot right now”, that's from
a place of pure love, but at the same time what Iheard in her voice was “Oh, she's accusing me of
something. Let me just like pull back and denyeverything.” And, you know “I work hard and I
play hard,” whatever, you know. Hear the sillinessthere, and acknowledge the challenge that you're
(12:57):
facing, and get the love support and help thatyou need to feel reconnected, reintegrated,
and define your path as you go forwardOF: Well, you must have been very high
functioning for them to have not known.GN: I was, and that was a big challenge. You know,
I could play very good tennis with several drinksdown the hatch. I could go to debate tournaments
(13:17):
high as a kite, which I did. I sat for the ACTintoxicated, and I did fine at it. I was Student
Government President at the University of Chicago,I’ve lead meetings intoxicated. I was one of the
leaders of the investment club during college,I did that drunk and high all the time. So yeah,
I was high functioning and that that was the thekind of curse about it. Because if I had been low
(13:43):
functioning, well, the warning signs would beenobvious to everybody. But I got good grades,
I got good test scores, I was a multi-sportathlete, I had a lot of friends that were
really good people. And so my parents, how wouldthey have known? Or my brother and sister? Just
thinking “Oh, Greg likes to party”, whichwas true, I thoroughly enjoyed all of that
until it began kind of overwhelming me. Andthen it's like this haunting grip that you
(14:07):
feel. Like you know there's something grabbingyou, gripping you there, and yet you feel kind
of powerless too. You know, I tried quittinga hundred times. And I just couldn't do it,
because every single time I made the vow… Usuallyon, like, a Saturday morning when my head was
pounding, and I was thinking about somethingreally, really dumb I did. Or I feel my jaws
hurt because I like got in a fight last night.Or I woke up with a $900 ER bill in my pocket,
(14:30):
had no recollection of any of that. And it'sjust like, “I am so obviously over the line here,
and over the edge.” And I would commit to thatwith full sincerity 8am, 9am Saturday morning.
And then at 6pm, I'm taking my first Vicodin, orI'm doing my first shots. And saying that out loud
now, like, it makes no sense. Like, how did thathappen? Like, how did you let yourself get into
(14:54):
that? And yet it's a real thing, and I lived it.OF: Well, the worst thing about all this is that
I can't be mean to you about your optimism. Ohdear. Well, thanks so much for sharing that.
Hey. OF
ask next would be, so is this why then you arenow addicted to running? You use this as your
therapy in some way? Or is that just too simple?GN: No, there's truth in it. I'll let you under
(15:19):
the the curtain here, to say that the day mydebit card got refused in Cambridge, England,
it was a day of just immense shame for me. BillGates gave me a scholarship to go to Cambridge
for grad school. One of the proudest… You know,seeing the look on like my parents face was just
such a wonderful feeling, my friends givingme kudos, just so special, like, I've achieved
(15:41):
all these wonderful goals aged 23, I go off tobusiness school there. And within two months,
I've partied through the very generous stipend Iwas given for graduate school. I'm now absolutely
dead broke. I'm going to try to buy anotherfifth of vodka - it’s probably my, like,
fourth or fifth that week. And the the attendantthere, who is kind of eyeballing me like “Wow I've
been seeing more and more your face these lastcouple of weeks”, he lets me know “Hey, like,
(16:04):
sorry, your card's been declined”. And thatmoment, I walked back to my little dormitory,
and I'm so frustrated and angry and pissedand confused. I've got rent due in a week,
I need to fly home for Christmas, like all thesebig expenses coming up, but what am I going to do?
The only thing I can think to do is like, I wantto punch a wall. But I don't actually don't want
(16:25):
to do that. I instead lace up my running shoes,and I just kind of sprint out into the hills
outside Cambridge, just run and run and run andrun. And it turns into probably a 15-20 mile run,
where I'm just like, running myself ragged. And atthe end of it, my legs and lungs are like totally
shot, totally dead. And yet, I felt in thatmoment that I turned some small corner. Like,
(16:48):
that feeling had replaced some of the withdrawalsI was feeling, some of the simmering anger and
frustration and embarrassment and shame thatwas welling up inside me. And from that moment,
I realised that the days where I'm running,I've got a smile. The days where I'm running,
I feel a little bit more kind of in control, alittle bit more present, a little more relaxed.
(17:08):
Because I still deal with stress, and I have a lotof anxiety. And I've put myself in positions with
my work where it's not a low stress occupationto CEO a company, particularly in China,
every day there's stuff that comes up. And youknow, I've had people joke with me like “Yo,
you need to go spend a year or two on a beach,like just recoup”. And that's also not my speed,
(17:28):
that's not my style. And so it's tough, it'slike you’ve got to find ways to kind of take
care of yourself, and to recharge your batteries.And for me running is that. It is therapeutic,
it’s been a wonderful way to connect with a lotof folks that have dealt with similar issues in
their past. And I found many folks in theultra community, a lot of them are running
from something or running towards something. AndI think, at first I was "Oh, that's not quite me”,
like “I just run because I like running, andI run because I get to see the world”. And
(17:52):
those things are partially true. But I think thefuller story is, I'm also running to remake myself
as a stronger, more resilient person. And I'mrunning as a way to channel a lot of those kind
of negative emotions and feelings into somethingthat is a little more positive. And my favourite
part about all this is actually sharing. Ilove getting in front of school children,
like going to an elementary or middle school, andtalking about ‘following your smile.’ Running’s
(18:16):
worked for me, and I share what's worked aboutthat. And I started learning about other folks’
journeys too, ranging from doing the crosswordeach morning, or meditating, or stretching,
or swimming. And a lot of that is like puttingyour brain or your body to use in new ways, so
that you can still channel a lot of those feelingsand emotions that are challenging to work through.
OF (18:36):
And so that's the connection you have with your business now, right? Because you
do work in education. So that's what gets youin front of kids. Like, what is your business?
GN (18:44):
Yeah, we're called dyad.com. And for those that have studied a little bit of ancient Greek
or Latin,’dyad' means 'consisting of two parts’,which for us is the present self - where you are
today - and then your potential self, what youcan become. And we are a mentorship platform
that helps people reach their dyad, to merge theirpresent self with their potential self. We connect
(19:09):
Chinese students primarily - although actually weoperate globally, it’s an online platform - with
experts from their target universities, tohelp them earn scholarships. And the thing
I'm proudest of - after serving 2,100 clientsover the last seven years - is that we've helped
folks earn over $27 million in scholarships.OF: Yeah, you’re making it even harder for me to
(19:30):
hate you now, you see? OK, let me ask you, so yousaid that there were stresses in this business,
I'm sure there are.GN: Yep.
OF (19:36):
And there would have been times that would have made you - in other times of your life - go
straight to the drink…GN: Yeah.
… Go straight to medication… GN
… So talk me through one of the hardest times that you had in the business,
and then tell me how you got out of it.GN: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the single
hardest was, I actually started the company witha close friend. We'd gone to business school
together. A brilliant, brilliant individualwho was just so creative, so hard working,
(20:02):
really put heart and soul into the business. Andwe had really well-overlapping strength. So where
I may be a strong marketer, he's a really,really strong operator, for instance. And
where I like the technology side, he really likesthe sales side, for instance. And so we had the
ingredients of actually a really good partnershipto do some really cool things. Unfortunately,
(20:23):
business is really stressful, I would dealwith that stress by going for a run, and
thinking through things, working through stuff.Whereas I think he felt increasingly isolated,
and just overwhelmed by a lot of the stressors,and didn't have an outlet for that, and just would
work and work and work. And that led to a varietyof differences of opinion. And differences of
(20:47):
opinion I think actually are very healthy ina business, but that led to increasing gaps,
and then sort of chasms. And it led to a seriesof just really, really difficult conversations,
that manifested in a psychotic episode wherethis individual was unable to restrain himself
from assaulting one of our colleagues. I end upgetting in the middle of it, catch some teeth to
(21:10):
the shin. I’m, you know, literally bit in ouroffice. He's ordered to get 24 hours of anger
management counselling, I'm ordered to get atetanus shot. The fallout from that, with this
brilliant friend of yours who's just sufferingfrom really, really some dark stuff - and again,
you'd like to help, you'd like to be there, andat the same time you're so angry and frustrated
about what this is doing to this business you'vebeen working your tail off for years - was really,
(21:35):
really tough. And you're losing this friendship,and you feel like you're gonna lose this business
altogether. And that wasn't even the end of it, heends up coming back with a police officer, trying
to get the deed snatched. You know, “I want thechop back’, and ‘You stole this company from me’,
and just over a year of drip-drip-drip drama.Just as soon as you think you've put that out,
(21:59):
you know, he's back. And this time, he's hackingthe website. Our homepage got hacked by this
gentleman, and the homepage - instead of reading‘dyad.com' it's ‘Stop fooling people around you,
Greg, or you will be **** punished’. Size 100red font on our homepage. And I wake up the next
(22:20):
morning, five in the morning going out for my run,and my WeChat’s blowing up with clients saying
“Oh, my gosh, what's happened?” And it's like,“What?” Like, I can't believe what I'm seeing. And
you know, our product manager’s giving me a call,just freaking out, and we’re trying to figure out
how this breach even happened, what keys thisgentleman still has. And so that was a very,
very rough year, you know, 2014-2015. It's hardenough trying to grow a business under the best
(22:44):
circumstances. But particularly if you've got afox in the henhouse loose there, or you've got
someone in the cockpit who's grabbing at thecontrols, trying to take the plane down. Yeah,
that was enormously challenging. And itwas tough, because that was an individual
who I had just an enormous amount of trustin, going into this. And a quarter million
dollars disappears.OF: I’m sorry, what?
GN (23:05):
Yeah, there's also a major theft of a quarter million dollars in the midst of all this. So yeah,
that that was enormously challenging on allfronts. And I think that really proved to
me “Hey, if I can stay sober through thisseries of episodes, then I'm ready”. Like,
I'm ready to face the challenges of life, becauseI think this is gonna be a particularly acute one,
(23:25):
that really dogged me for quite a while.OF: Wow, well that's not the answer I was
expecting as well. So, gosh. And I can reallyrelate, because I’m the Co-Founder of my own
company as well, and I founded it with avery close friend of mine. And, you know,
we were respectful all the way through. Wehad our differences, and it's very easy to
(23:47):
focus on those. But then when I hear a storylike yours, you know, it does make me think,
“Wow, for all the differences that we had, I thinkboth of us were lucky to have found each other”.
Mmm. OF
end, or are you estranged? Like, what's he doing?GN: Good question. I'm not quite sure what
he's up to. We're no longer in touch. Yeah,given kind of the nature of the falling out,
(24:10):
I thought "Hey, some time and distance iswhat the what the doctor ordered here.”
OF (24:14):
Well I'm looking at your object here, the Seattle water bottle. It makes me just think,
to wrap up this part of the conversation,what about your home, your family? Like,
how have they dealt with first hearing aboutyour issues? And then where you are today, like,
what’s your relationship like with them now?GN: They've been very, very supportive. They
understand what it takes - a lot of hard work,a lot of determination, dedication - to get
(24:36):
this going, and keep it going. They've been outto visit, been out to see my day-to-day-to-day
out here in Shanghai. And as I mentionedat the outset, I’m still really homesick,
and I'm eager for even more time back home,because there's a lot of special moments
that you miss out when you're 7,000 miles away.OF: Well, thanks very much. You've opened up a
lot. And, you know, there are parts of that storythat I didn't know as well. I really - you know,
(25:00):
you don't need to hear this from me - but Iencourage you to really own this story more and
more, because I think that's what people need tohear. Especially in China, where I feel that the
stigma of drug addiction is really strong. AndI don't even think that they're open to hearing
about how people get through that. They just seeit as an evil, and that's the end of the story.
GN (25:18):
Yeah. So my big plan on this is I'm going to celebrate 3,000 days of sobriety. And actually to
mark that, I plan to be in New York City thatday, to put one foot in the Atlantic Ocean,
and then to begin running across the UnitedStates. And my aim is to finish in my hometown
of Seattle with a foot in the Pacific Ocean, some75 days later. And as part of this, I'd like to
(25:43):
tell stories of sobriety, and tell stories ofaddiction, how folks have overcome addiction.
To demonstrate that overcoming addiction isa marathon, not a sprint. My hope would be
that some of those efforts are able to inspireand spark authentic Chinese stories as well,
because these issues are real, and it takes aseries of dialogues to begin cracking that stigma.
(26:07):
And it won't happen with one guy running,it’s going to be a series of milestones.
OF (26:11):
Thank you, Greg. GN
Let’s move on to Part 2. GN
[Part 2]OF: Question 1,
what is your favourite China-related fact?GN: My favourite China-related fact is that
the 黄浦 [Huángpǔ] River, the riverthat flows through Shanghai here,
was actually excavated and dredged to be createdaround 2,500 years ago during the Warring States
(26:39):
period. It starts around 松江 [Sōngjiāng],which is like far southwest Shanghai,
it's a district. And it winds its way merrilyover the Bund, 陆家嘴 [Lùjiāzuǐ], on to the Yangtze,
which drains into the East China Sea.OF: OK. Number 2, do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?GN: 一山不容二虎 [Yīshān bùróng èrhǔ],
which is ‘one mountain cannot have twotigers'. And for me, that's a great
(27:05):
parable about leadership. Ultimately, you needaccountability and you need people responsible.
Just like that one tiger on that one mountain.OF: OK. Is that something about having
two Co-Founders?GN: It might be.
Oh dear. Number 3, what is your favourite destination within China?
GN (27:22):
I've got two. So I love the Gobi desert in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] with the 天山 [Tiānshān] mountains.
Just absolutely amazing, totally recommendthat. My second is 哈巴雪山 [Hǎbā xuěshān],
Haba Snow Mountain. Totally beautiful. It'sover 5,000 metres tall, and you actually have
a beautiful view into Tiger Leaping Gorge. Andwhen I went there were literally no tourists
there. It was me and a bunch of yaks.OF: I thought that was a racial
(27:46):
slur, that. But you mean the animal.GN: Literally, yeah.
OF (27:51):
“You bloody yak”. Oh, oh, it’s a yak. GN
Number 4, if you left China, what would be the thing that you missed the most,
and the thing that you missed the least?GN: The thing I miss the most is the
energy and dynamism of China. You can't reallyreplicate that. It's really really magical here.
I love that. The thing I would miss the least isnear-death experiences with 饿了么 [Èleme] drivers
(28:15):
and scooters, flying down sidewalks.That still terrifies me to this day.
Yes, I have been hit by one of those. GN
ago and it still stings me to think about it.OF: I have the scars to prove it too. So after
this we can we can compare them. Is there anythingthat still surprises you about life in China?
GN (28:35):
I feel like I've seen a good deal after near seven years here. One thing that I think will
probably always shock me and surprise me is seeingthe opulent luxury and wealth and privilege in
such close proximity to the poverty and squalor.That is just really tough to see. You know,
(28:55):
I've come out of a business meeting in a reallynice office building or at a really nice dinner,
and you've got a shanty right next door.And that happens all over the world,
but it's profoundly visible here in Shanghai.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
or to hang out?GN: One of my favourite things
to do is just go on long runs where I just unplug,I'm thinking, and I run and run and run until I'm
(29:20):
so hungry or I don’t think I can keep going. AndI will just jump into the random hole-in-the-wall
dumpling or noodle or rice place right there. Andmore often than not, just like a really wonderful
granny or grandpa is cooking up somethingdelicious. We'll have a special moment there,
I'll usually get a selfie in with them. And thenI'll have the fuel and the carbs to then run back
(29:43):
to 静安 [Jìng’ān] where I'm based. That's kindof my favourite actually, of everything. And
I feel like I've seen a couple hundred wonderfulholes-in-the-wall at this point. For listeners who
may be looking for recommendations in Shanghai,I love The Press, it’s maybe my favourite coffee
shop. It's down in the 黄浦 [Huángpǔ] district.It is the site of one of the old newspaper
presses. And so it's beautiful Greco Roman stylearchitecture. And it's relatively affordable,
(30:09):
you know, americanos and coffee there. It’s justa really beautiful place to go do some work,
set some goals. And then my favourite kind of hangout… I'm not a big night owl anymore, I go to bed
relatively early, I'm pretty boring. But I do likeCo.Cheese, which is like a grilled cheese spot,
real close to Chinaccelerator, which is whereI'm based. And so yeah, that's a very tasty spot,
(30:30):
if you’re ever craving some some grilled cheese.OF: What is the best or worst purchase
you have made in China?GN: Let me go to the worst,
because this is more more top of mind. Myfirst trip to China was Beijing in 2009.
And I got a wonderful Mao watch. And it's like,you know, Chairman Mao with his two hands - his
(30:50):
two arms - as the seconds to minute clock. And Ihaggled it down to something like 20 RMB, which I
felt was a pretty good deal, because it started at200. And by the time I had gotten on the aeroplane
to fly home some eight hours later, the watch hadstopped working. And I was like “Oh my god, like
total swindling here”. My sister still loved thegift. So it may not have actually been the worst,
(31:11):
but that comes to mind for sure.OF: That still eats away at you.
It does. Deep in my soul. OF
Yes, my two favourite WeChat stickers. One is Derek Zoolander,
and he's dancing with his friends in his open airJeep. And that's from one of my favourite movies,
Zoolander. And the second is the rapper Drake.He's got a song called Hotline Bling, where he
(31:37):
does this kind of fun dance. And there's a stickerwhere he's actually playing Fruit Ninja, which is
fantastic. Iconic video, It's a silly one.OF: Thank you, that's going on social media
afterwards.GN: Boom.
OF (31:50):
What is your go to song to sing at KTV? GN
It's a beautiful song. And it's fun to introduceit, because none of my Chinese friends have heard
that before. And so when available - it's notalways - but that's what I like. What's always
available, that I've been talked into a numberof times, and I've sort of had to claim it as
a result, is a lady named Natalie Imbrugliasung ‘Torn', which is like a 1998 super pop
(32:13):
hit or something. And colleagues make mesing that one when we go out, because I do
give a pretty good rendition. Thank you, Natalie.OF: Oh, wow. Well, of course I know that because
I'm a Brit. And we were fed a diet of Australiansoaps. And she is an Australian soap star.
GN (32:26):
Oh, there we go, OK. OF
Did not. OF
me the most out of the whole conversationnow? It’s that actually you can go to karaoke,
and you're completely sober.GN: That's right. I've
got a seven year streak going.OF: And finally, what other China-related media or
sources of information in general do you rely on?GN: Yeah, so my favourite is a group called China
(32:51):
HIVE. And they do really good technology andinnovation. So if you're at all interested
in like “What's the startup scene like?” or“Where's China tech going?” or Western tech
in China, these guys at China hive doa really, really good job covering it.
OF (33:05):
Very nice, thank you so much. Well, altogether, you know, that's been a very
eye-opening conversation with you, Greg. I reallyappreciate that. And I think people who listen
to this are also going to be surprised too,especially ones who we know together from IPWS.
GN (33:19):
Absolutely. International Professional Women’s Society. Wonderful conference,
wonderful programming, and some good B-Listspeakers like myself and A-Listers like Oscar.
OF (33:29):
You said the right thing, I will definitely not edit that out from the final version. And
finally, what I ask everyone before theyleave is, out of everyone you know in China,
for the next series of Mosaic of China, whowould you recommend that I interview next?
GN (33:42):
I recommend my friend, who I think is one of the most interesting people in all
China, a fellow named Alex Shoer. And Alex isthe founder and CEO of a company called Seeder
which is helping factories and manufacturersin China use green energy and solar power
for their fueling needs. He's wonderful, veryinsightful, and I think would be just a great
(34:03):
resource for Mosaic of China listeners.OF: Done. Well I look forward to meeting
Alex and thank you again, Greg.GN: Hundred percent, Oscar, my pleasure.
[Outro]OF: So I hope you can
understand why this episode is a little longerthan usual. The 25-minute format of Mosaic of
China can cope with one twist in the story, buteverything starts to derail when there are two.
(34:24):
So I'll hurry up with this and just say, pleasecheck out the accompanying images to this episode
with Greg. You can find them at @mosaicofchina_on Instagram and @mosaicofchina on Facebook,
or join the conversation on WeChatby adding me on my ID: mosaicofchina,
and I'll add you to the group myself. There's hisobject, his favourite stickers, some race photos,
even a couple of shots of Greg from hispartying days, and a whole bunch more.
(34:48):
And also Greg's comment about trying toavoid getting knocked over by scooters
on the pavements of China is a greatexcuse for me to remind you about last
week's episode in which Roz talked aboutthe concept of ‘Shanghai Flow’. If only
Greg and I had listened to Roz, neitherof us would be comparing scars today.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, artworkby Danny Newell, and extra support from
(35:10):
Milo de Prieto and Alston Gong. And a quickCoronavirus update, it's now the end of February
and more shops and restaurants are starting toreopen this week, at least here in Shanghai. I
ventured out this weekend and in a lot of placespeople are being seated with at least one table
separating each party. And where there are lines,I saw patrons being asked to space themselves out.
(35:30):
So a few interesting measures there that atleast I saw, allowing for these small signs
of life returning back to normal. I hope to havemore progress to report when we're back next week.
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