September 26, 2022 • 41 mins
China is a country of cities, and mega-cities... and mega-mega-cities. But guess what folks, in between these cities is a whole bunch of countryside. And as we question whether our modern urban lifestyles are truly sustainable, sometimes we need to turn to those places where the answers have been waiting for us all along. Today's guest - the architect, Chen Haoru - has been searching for these answers from his base in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] for the last twenty years. And this journey has led him to establishing a model of communal living, to designing structures that define a philosophical movement, and to questioning our misplaced expectation about the permanence of architecture. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with: Jovana Zhang from Season 02 Episode 08 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-08-jovana-zhang Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:47 - Part 1 21:45 - Part 2 31:56 - Outro 36:28 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-05-chen-haoru Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]CH: So at that time we realised “OK,
(00:04):
architecture is part of agriculture”.OF: Nice.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode is with the architect陈浩如 Chén Hàorú. We’ve had an architect
on the podcast before, it was the lovelyWendy Saunders from Season 02 Episode 12.
(00:30):
So I was a bit nervous about having anotherone on the show, since I was wondering whether
there would be too much overlap. But as you’llhear, there is absolutely no overlap at all!
That’s not to say that Haoru and Wendy aretotally opposite, in many ways they’re not.
But Wendy’s story was about bringing herEuropean eye to China, and we talked a lot
(00:51):
about the evolution of the built environmentin Shanghai. With Haoru, we’re talking about
someone with a Chinese and American eye, workingin entirely different environments, and with
an overarching philosophy that challenges ourideas of permanence and architectural identity.
Indeed, what sets Haoru’s story apart from almostall the other episodes of Mosaic of China, is that
(01:15):
we’re not just talking about growing a business,we’re talking about growing a movement. One that
has taken Haoru from the streets of New York toa pig farm in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province. We recorded
this conversation in a hotel roomwith too many reflective surfaces,
so the resulting audio is a little echoey.Your ears should tune into this quickly enough,
(01:36):
but if you do have any trouble understandingthen please follow the transcript on the
Mosaic of China website, or watchthe video with captions on YouTube.
[Part 1]OF:
Well, thank you so much for coming. We arecurrently in a hotel room in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and I
am with 陈浩如 Chén Hàorú. Hello Haoru.CH: Hello.
OF (01:58):
I have been doing a few of these interviews outside of Shanghai. Which is nice, because a
lot of the previous two seasons have been veryShanghai-based. And it's fun for me, because the
city itself becomes almost like an extra guest inthe show. So before we jump into our conversation,
how long have you been here in 杭州 [Hángzhōu]?CH: Well, it's a good question. I was born
(02:22):
here in the 70s. Then I went to the U.S, NewYork. I was there about 15 years, and then
I came back in the year 2000/2001. You know, Iwould go back to New York, and come back here;
go to Shanghai or go to Beijing; and go to Europefor exhibitions and come back. There was not a
clear definition of which city that I actuallylive In, I used to live in multiple cities. That
(02:47):
was the previous life we used to have.OF: Right, now with COVID, the luxury
of saying that you are based in multiplelocations is no longer available, right?
CH (02:57):
Yes, we're sort of forced to choose. OF
Sort of stuck in one place. OF
OF (03:03):
But there are worse places to be stuck in. I think 杭州 [Hángzhōu] is a really beautiful
city. And presumably, when you came back from theU.S, that's what you had in mind as well, right?
CH (03:14):
It was very peaceful around the year 2000/2001. 杭州 [Hángzhōu] was
considered a backwater, or ‘内地 [nèidì]’. The cityreally goes around the West Lake. It's a very
unique situation. Because usually we see a centralpark, but 杭州 [Hángzhōu] is a city that was built
around a lake.OF: Yes.
(03:34):
But 杭州 [Hángzhōu] in a sense was kind of insignificant. It was the capital once, about
a thousand years ago - in the 宋 [Sòng] Dynasty,when basically they were forced to relocate
to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] - but after that, it’s beensort of a romantic place for people who are
wandering around, and have no sense of belonging,or are sort of depressed. Depressed politicians,
(03:58):
poets, artists. It's a place to be tucked away.OF: You know what, I've heard of that. Like,
in the 1900s, when people were gettingtired of how China was modernising,
they would escape to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] andbecome Buddhist monks, wouldn't they?
Yes, that was about 100 years ago. And then some people stayed. They would
(04:19):
rather be here in this perpetual holiday.OF: Well, I said that the city we're in
will become like an extra guest of thisshow. I think it's almost to a fault,
because we've talked about 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and Ihaven't really talked about you at all. Briefly,
what do you do here in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], Haoru?CH: I'm an architect by profession. That's
how I came back to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] from New York,
(04:41):
because I actually received a commission here.OF: Great. Well, before we go any further,
what is the object that you have brought thatin some way describes your life here in China?
What do we have here?CH: It's a model of a bookshelf.
OF (04:58):
Oh nice. CH
I made this in college. It's what gotme into the profession of architecture.
It's a kiosk to sell newspapers and magazines.OF: Oh that's what you mean. Right, right, right.
CH (05:11):
Yeah. You see interesting bookstands in Paris. OF
of when you say that.CH You go there and it
opens up. And it's street life. At night,it just closes off and becomes a fortress.
OF (05:22):
That's right, yeah. CH
because then books no longer belongs toone person. They’re shared with the city.
So this was designed to be a free-standing structure in the middle of the street, which
would open up and become a temporary bookstore inthe daytime, and then would shut in the evening.
CH (05:41):
Yes. But you can see other creative bookstore design or bookstand designs.
OF (05:45):
Yes. CH
saw something very interesting in Tokyo recently.OF: You were ahead of your time, maybe.
CH (05:53):
I always feel that. I feel ten or twenty years ahead of my time. I came back a little bit too
early. Now is probably a better time.OF: Yeah.
杭州 [Hángzhōu] has become a boom city. Hotels, and Alibaba…
OF (06:05):
Yeah, where we are doing the recording is in a hotel right next door to one of
Alibaba’s big offices, right?CH: That was built three years
ago. Before that this place was very quiet.OF: And so presumably, you studied architecture in
New York. That was the America side of your story.CH: Yes, I studied engineering, I studied liberal
(06:30):
arts, then I found architecture. Then I stuckwith it. Mostly, I spent my time in New York City:
schools in Harlem, schools in Brooklyn,and in The Village. This environment
that cultivated designers, artists…OF: …And I would say non-conformist
thinkers, right? In that part of New York.CH: Very different from the rest of America.
(06:54):
Right. CH
and 42nd Street. Always a sense of optimism.OF: So you said you received a commission.
CH (07:04):
I received a commission, yes. The first commission was about making a new city,
it was a bank of the river. And therewas nothing there. That's 滨江 [Bīnjiāng],
That's where the huge towers are now. Wecontributed a part of that. But we found
there are problems in the way we are proceedingwith this. One of them is, I saw the construction
(07:24):
workers - we had hundreds of construction workers- they were quite skilled with their hands.
They would use tools and cement, andtried to make something so straight,
that it mimics prefabricated industrial units.We see this everywhere. People use handcraft
to mimic an industrial-era product.OF: And that results in a bad product,
(07:46):
right? Because if you're tryingto mimic something which is
machine-based, the result is going to be lesser.CH: It was also sad. Because we know how good they
are, what great crafts they can produce with theirhands. Yet we're doing something that was designed
to make it faster, cheaper and mass-produced.Trying to catch up, trying to be modern. But
(08:06):
people are paying a huge price for it. Then Irealised maybe we have two ways of doing this. One
is to industrialise and develop progressively. Butthere's always a parallel movement of people going
to the countryside. The Arts and Crafts movementin the UK. In America as well, Frank Lloyd Wright,
going against the machine of modernism. Andin China, I saw this coming. I saw 王澍 [Wáng
(08:31):
Shù]’s work right after I got here.OF: So 王澍 [Wáng Shù], he is someone who
most Chinese people would have heard of, butmaybe if you're not Chinese you may not know,
right? Who is 王澍 [Wáng Shù]?CH: 王澍 [Wáng Shù] is very famous
now. In 2012 he won the Pritzker Prizefor architecture, that’s the equivalent
of the Nobel Prize. He is an architect, nowhe's the dean of the school where I teach.
(08:53):
And his work is very much based in regionalmaterial and climate. I saw his work - his
effort - as being this parallel movement, moresensitive towards localism, equality issues.
When something’s demolished, what do you do withthe demolished material? He put it in his walls,
as a statement. So when 王澍 [Wáng Shù] invited meto go teach in 2004, he was starting a school,
(09:19):
and I knew what he was thinking, so I said “Yes”.It was a lot of free thinking and experimentation,
I was able to think about a social and artisticmovement. And thinking back, that was a very
exciting time. I found a pool of great people,great talents, and I was happy to be part of them.
OF (09:39):
Yeah. So let's go into some detail. We talked about how you
had this idea. So what did you end up doing?CH: 2012 was a very important year. From that
year, we started receiving commissions from thecountryside. Society had somewhat changed. There
was increasing amount of attention being paidtowards the countryside. We did our first project
the next year (10:03):
the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune project. OF
that overlaps with the person who referred you,Jovana Zhang. So let me play you something now.
[Start of Audio Clip]Jovana ZHANG:
I am suggesting that you talk with Haoru. Heis an architect, he’s based in 杭州 [Hángzhōu].
(10:25):
He's doing a lot of things that involve bamboostructure. I think he has a lot of things to say
about the architecture of China.[End of Audio Clip]
CH (10:36):
Thank you, Jovana. OF:
Tell me what your relationship waswith Jovana, how do you know her?
In 2011, I went to a meeting about a show somewhere. They invited architects and handicraft
designers. I met Jovana, I met the whole gang. AndI thought “Great, this was the 杭州 [Hángzhōu] Art
(10:57):
and Crafts revolution”. I thought “Great, I wantto be part of that”. Then we went on to do shows,
exhibitions. We went to Milan Design Week, ourshow was called called ‘Handmade In Hangzhou,
First Material (11:08):
Bamboo’. And this exhibition was so popular, they moved the exhibition to Paris,
to The Louvre. So it was like an instant hit.OF: This is what connects us to the project
you just started to mention, right?CH: Yes, I joined this exhibition partially
because of this very interesting material, bamboo.Architecture is supposed to last a hundred years.
(11:33):
The permanency issue of architecture was withoutquestion, until it comes to bamboo. In Japan,
they put two temples side by side. Youwould tear one down, and use the other one,
and then you switched. Everything is in aconstant demolition and reconstruction process.
(11:54):
These temples are so unique and influential in thehistory of architecture, that it just challenges
the permanency idea of architecture. It's alwaysunder perpetual reconstruction and maintenance.
OF (12:06):
Yes. Which in itself is a challenging idea when it comes to architecture from a
modern perspective, where we think about buildingthese massive steel and glass structures that
look like they're permanent forever and ever.CH: As an architect, we know that is not true.
Because very frequently, the building gets knockeddown in 20 years. That is the problem, I think.
(12:28):
But in the countryside, we were able to experimentwith this idea of ‘temporariness’ - you know,
this organic quality of bamboo- with different structures,
other than structures for humans to live. We cameup with these countryside reconstruction projects,
like one of my friends 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] -who knew what I was into - had offered
(12:50):
me a chance to design.OF: Right. And this is
what became known as the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune.CH: That's right. 太阳 [Tàiyáng] is a town name.
And it was a bit far from the city, where the landis quite cheap. So my friend 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] was
able to rent a few acres of semi-abandoned land.And he wanted to create a farm for raising pigs.
(13:15):
Pigs, right. CH
farming trade that wouldn’t lose your investment.OF: Oh, so it was like a guaranteed income idea.
CH (13:24):
It was an income idea. But it was really a problem, because all the villagers were against
it. Because pig barns are notorious for smells.OF: Right.
So the challenge was very interesting. We were to create a structure for raising pigs,
but it needed to have positive reviews, andcould have even visitors. So we had about
three months preparation. We had meetingswith pig farmers, they came to our office
(13:50):
and we learned about the possibilitiesof what you can do, what's not to do.
Then I talked to my client about using bamboo.陈卫 [Chén Wèi] was very open minded, and said “OK,
try it. Do it”. And we created this design,a very durable and simple structure using a
(14:10):
five-pyramid scheme, and covering the structurewith straw. The math worked out, the client was
happy. Then we had to be there to superviseit, to make sure that it was done correctly.
It was just perfect. We wanted it to last atleast three years. If it lasted three years,
we'd know if the farm was a success or failure.So at that time we realised “OK, architecture
(14:36):
is part of agriculture”.OF: Nice. I see.
The solution is within agriculture. You've got rice paddies, you see these
beautiful stone-stacked pathways. Who didit? It was the farmers. One of the main work
for farmers is to do infrastructure.OF: Right, which you would also say
is ‘design,’ it’s ‘architecture’.CH: That is part of architecture.
(14:58):
That's foundation. This foundation forthe rice paddies would continue and form
the foundation for village houses.OF: Yes, they interconnect, right?
Absolutely. Everything’s connected. You're in the valley, nothing comes from the outside,
everything’s from here, then you justhave to assemble them together. That is,
to me, the essence of agriculture.That's how we're meant to survive.
OF (15:20):
Maybe I should ask you about the project itself. We've talked about the architecture side,
what was this idea of the commune?CH: It started with the idea of a pig
farm. It became quite well known, you know “Whatis this huge pig farm that doesn't smell too bad?”
So we did our job quite well. Architecture becamethe media object that everybody talked about.
(15:43):
And from the creation of this architecture, thefarm had an identity. People came here to see
the pigs, feed the pigs, as many as 50,000people visited our farm in the first year.
Oh wow. CH
scope. We made as many as 55 different variationsof vegetables, expanded the animal farm to include
(16:05):
chicken, duck, sheep, goat. And we broughtin more people, so it became an experimental
education ground for rural construction.OF: Which is interesting to me, because you
could have the idea of a commune growingorganic food. But then without having the
symbol of the pig farm - without having thisarchitectural identity - it doesn't become
(16:26):
anything. It was the architectural piece thatgrabbed people's attention, which then led them
to the actual of what you were trying to do.CH: Yes, it was first time for me that I felt
architecture was powerful. This ability that wehave that creates identity - a place - within the
continuous rural space. The farmers areproud to be the producers of good food,
(16:50):
they have their photo put on the product.OF: Oh so ‘this person’ created ‘this product’.
CH (16:56):
Yes, with pride. There are many farms which did similar things before,
in Japan and Taiwan. We learned from them. Butarchitecture-wise, it goes back to Arizona.
There's this tradition in the U.S, where yougo somewhere and create your own universe,
your own order. So at the time, it feltvery much like that, in the commune. That
(17:18):
we're doing something new. There were peoplecoming every day, we had a lot of volunteers,
and made our clients very happy. Itdeveloped into almost like a career.
OF (17:28):
The way you talk about it, you didn't just design and build this pig barn, you almost
became part of this project yourself, right?CH: Yeah, I was a part of the project from
very beginning. That was the understanding,to supervise or help with the management,
and the marketing of the farm.OF: Oh wow.
CH (17:49):
We went to as many as 50-100 exhibitions - conferences, talks - of course, about using
organic architecture. Architecture doesn't needto be permanent. Architecture doesn't have to
be wasteful of energy, or it doesn't have to bedestructive to the environment. Even now we're
doing these exhibitions. People call me to askme to create a new farm somewhere, out in the
(18:13):
west in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], it was just overwhelming.OF: Well that's what I wanted to ask you about.
Because we're talking about this oneproject, which started almost a decade
ago. What was the knock on effect? Have younow built a practice based on that project?
I had never thought of doing this commercially. I've never thought to
become a CEO of a huge firm, who does this thingand that thing. Because it started with such an
(18:37):
anti-establishment, anti-urban culture. Myself,I don't think this really works with this sort
of centralised planning strategy. I think it wouldremain a movement, done by everyone, everywhere.
OF (18:50):
Organic, right? It would spread organically. CH
movement, right? These boutiquehotels, there are perfect in using
architecture - using design - to awaken one area.OF: That's exactly what you make me think about.
Little guest houses that I see popping up inthe countryside all over China. You build a
(19:10):
nice 民宿 [mínsù] - a nice guest house - and thenit attracts people who then can revitalise an
otherwise ignored small village, right?CH: You know, I got this wake-up call.
In Switzerland, I went to see the works ofgreat masters in the mountains. In the city,
you see all this architecture thrown together.And yet individually, they are so insignificant.
(19:32):
It doesn’t matter how great the architect, howbeautiful the material, you’re just one piece of
the city. Everybody just sort of compromises, youknow, they fight each other. But some architects
have this dream to do more. Architecturalbecomes part of the landscape, it defines
the place. We just have to plan it smartly.OF: Is this what you're working on, these days?
CH (19:54):
I am working on a youth hostel in the rural area of 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province, near 黄山 [Huángshān]
surrounded by beautiful scenery. The place hasno people. So to do anything is impossible,
for construction. Of course you couldn’tfind workers for restaurants. Nobody,
right? So could this be reversed?OF: Right, so this youth hostel,
(20:15):
you build the identity, and then young peoplecan come back and revitalise an otherwise
ignored part of the country.CH: Yes, we're trying to use
architecture again.OF: Yes.
So that young people would want to go. OF
it on their social media, and hopefully that willhave a knock-on effect with other people going,
It just accelerates things. Originally we were thinking it’ll take maybe five years,
(20:36):
this movement. Maybe it’ll take five months, ifwhat you do is correct. If I do it correctly,
I wouldn't need to promote my own work.OF: Others will do it for you.
Yeah, they will find a better angle to tell them the story.
Then it becomes really interesting.OF: Well, we started our conversation
talking about 杭州 [Hángzhōu], whydon't we finish this part and say
(20:58):
“Where do you see the city going in the future?”CH: The city is still changing. Maybe we will have
a new city centre in the West. They're buildingthe tallest building in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] there. A
giant train station that connects the west andnorth, where Alibaba is. And in the south - where
we are - they are creating this new region,maybe the provincial capital will be moved here.
(21:19):
I think the city will be transformed.West Lake will be indeed the Central Park.
For 杭州 [Hángzhōu] it used to be ‘nature surroundsman’. Now it's truly ‘man surrounds nature’.
OF (21:31):
Mmm. This city is going to be more and more on the map in the future.
CH (21:34):
Yeah. OF
government wants to sponsor this episode, they'remore than welcome. Thank you so much, Haoru.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK,
Part 2. I ask the same 10 questions to everyguest. Question 1, brought to us by Shanghai
Daily (21:55):
What is your favourite China-related fact? CH
regions have different architects. Shanghaiarchitects are definitely more urban, boutique,
trendy, diverse. For 杭州 [Hángzhōu], maybe it's abit more uniform. The small studios are very much
associated with schools, and the topics are morerelated to culture, environment, nature, crafts.
With 云南 [Yúnnán], it's about 远方 [Yuǎnfāng]: ‘Faraway’ architecture. It's much more rural, (22:22):
undefined
it’s highly personal, and architects love to gothere. Most of them are not from 云南 [Yúnnán]. Most
of China sees 云南 [Yúnnán] as this getaway place.OF: Yes.
CH (22:40):
And if you go to 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], they have a very strong southern tradition,
being a very different climate. The colour,materials, are all very different, very unique.
More colourful, more lively. China’s so big…OF: Yeah, that's a little taster of the different
architectural styles. Thank you. Question 2,which comes to us from the language learning
company, Rosetta Stone (23:03):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
CH (23:08):
Wow. I’ll say ‘liberation’ right: 解放 [Jiěfàng]. Please, you know,
lift the blockade!OF: Yes. 解放 [Jiěfàng]
is a good answer. Question 3, what isyour favourite destination within China?
I have to say, if you drive, you can actually go into the mountains without much danger. You
(23:34):
know, one of the first places from where weare - the 杭州 [Hángzhōu] or Shanghai area - is
to go to the Southwest. I did that recently.OF: In 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province still, right?
It starts in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], and then 福建 [Fújiàn]. We went to a lot of villages in these
areas, like 龙泉 [Lóngquán].OF: 龙泉 [Lóngquán], oh.
Yeah, ‘Dragon Spring’, where you will find ceramics for tea.
(23:55):
And they make swords.OF: Oh, right.
Yeah. Why would they make them there? If you go there, you'll find out. They’re in the
mountains, but they're connected through waterto 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and 泉州 [Quánzhōu]. So this road
from 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to 泉州 [Quánzhōu] is veryinteresting. On this road, you find countless
beautiful villages and bridges we call 廊桥[lángqiáo]: This endless roadway of China.
OF (24:19):
There's a nice connection also with the Mosaic of China, because in Season
01 a couple of people said 杭州 [Hángzhōu] was theirfavourite destination, including Astrid Poghosyan,
the violinist. And last season - Season 02 -there was an improvisational comedian called
Michelle Qu, and she chose 泉州 [Quánzhōu] asher favourite destination. So 龙泉 [Lóngquán]
(24:39):
is right in the middle of those two.CH: Yeah, if you go there, it's just very
lively. It's different from the northwest.OF: Nice, thank you so much. Next question,
if you left China, what would you miss themost and what would you miss the least?
CH (24:55):
It's about freedom. In China, you're free to do many things. You basically travel between
regions. So it's this kind of variety and freedomto travel within the borders, it’s kinda good.
What I’ll miss the least (25:08):
China is still kind of closed-border. The great wall of fire.
OF (25:14):
The Great Firewall? CH
the thing I’d miss the least.OF: Yeah.
CH (25:18):
I think that's terrible. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?CH: It's how fast it changes. That is really
frightening and surprising. Everyfield is changing. So it makes me
wonder, do we age well in such a society?OF: Yeah. What about in your field? What is
(25:42):
changing the fastest in the world of architecture?CH: New projects keep on popping up in the
countryside. New architects, new places, newpeople. I didn't expect it to be so soon,
maybe time passed a little toofast. We can't keep up with it.
OF (25:57):
Now when I go around the countryside, I do see things that have been made by architectural firms
from Beijing from Shanghai.CH: Yes.
There are now a lot of people who are trying to do the same thing
you are doing, right? In the countryside.CH: Yeah, we're running into each other. It’s good
because it fosters competition that creates theenvironment that you're working towards a similar
(26:19):
goal. The countryside’s more open, I think.OF: There's more room for experimentation.
CH (26:24):
Oh, definitely. Yeah, the urban sites, they are more competitive.
OF (26:29):
The next question, which comes to us from SmartShanghai
go out, to eat, or drink, or just hang out?CH: In the place where I'm working now,
遂昌 [Suìchāng], there is a restaurant where you canhave all these unique foods from the countryside.
You've probably never seen it anywhere else. Theyput herbal plants in every course of the meal.
(26:52):
Oh. CH
get to have the meal while watching the theatre.OF: Oh, really?
CH (26:59):
Yeah, the place is known for the creator of many dramas called 汤显祖 [Tāng Xiǎnzǔ], Supposedly
he wrote all his dramas in this town. Tocelebrate him, they create theatres for the
restaurants, and that has become a tradition.OF: And so there's more than one of
these places in this town.CH: Yes. I find that to be two
worlds put together.OF: Yeah.
You just have to go there. OF
(27:21):
Very rural. OF
the best or worst purchase youhave made recently in China?
Oh, can I say something that I didn't buy? OF
Yeah, I'm looking to buy an electric car. That is something that I might have to get.
OF (27:39):
Yeah. CH
in a city where they’ve posted restrictions onnormal cars, gas cars. So that kind of restriction
is making everybody buy electric cars.OF: Why haven't you bought one already?
CH (27:51):
I didn't buy one, because the choices, they’re so baffling. There are so many. But that is
definitely something that's coming towards us.OF: Well, there'll be a delay between this
recording and when it is released. So maybeby the time it's released, you would have
already bought it.CH: Maybe.
OF (28:09):
Maybe, right. Next question, what’s your favourite WeChat sticker?
Oh, nice. Can you explain this oneCH: Yes, it’s an algorithm. It's
basically a calculated movement of an insect.OF: Nice. It's so simple, but it's quite hypnotic.
CH (28:28):
Yes. OF
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CH: Maybe a Taiwanese singer, 齐秦 [Qí Qín]:
'北方的狼 [Běifāng de Láng]’. ‘Wolf from the North.’OF: Oh, nice.
It’s kind of funny. This imagination of this lonely wolf from the North. It’s an interesting
(28:48):
term in Taiwan. It's funny.OF: It's from which era?
80s. OF
who is your best source of inspiration in China.CH: There’s island in the middle of the lake here
in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] called Solitude Hill. Poets wouldgo there to be alone. And that became a movement
(29:13):
in the 清 [Qīng] Dynasty, 200 years ago. Thisgroup of artists would go there to form a society,
outside of the city. A counter-culture andanti-establishment spirit that’s always been here.
Our school also claimed that, because the originalschool was established there on the island,
Solitude Hill. So that place is really inspiringfor me. I went there numerous times as a kid.
(29:36):
And now I also go there. It's just sort of inthe middle of the lake, but it’s connected by
causeways and bridges. And you really feellike you're in ancient time. There are tea
houses and stone caves, tombs of great people,and you're in nature. Very well designed places.
OF (29:54):
And can you still find solitude there, even today?
CH (29:57):
Yes. You know, if there are too many people during the day, you just go there at midnight.
OF (30:02):
Right. CH
just walk up the hill, nobody will stop you.OF: That's nice. Because my only image of
that place is in the daytime,on a weekend, full of tourists.
CH (30:11):
Right, yeah. OF
Lovely. Thank you so much for that, Haoru. And Iappreciate everything that you've shared today as
well, about your work and your life. I hope thatthere are more people like you out there, in these
ecological projects and sustainable ideas. Soanyone listening who is inspired by your answers,
(30:31):
I hope that they can get in touch.CH: Thank you, Oscar.
OF (30:34):
The final thing before we close off today is, out of everyone who you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
CH (30:45):
There are a number of people I think would be perfect for your show. But the criteria is also,
they have to speak English.OF: Yeah.
They have to be in China. OF
That was kind of conflicting requirements. OF
Because a lot of them have left! Yeah but one of my friends is still here, 陈旻 [Chén Mín]. He’s
a furniture designer, educated in Milan,in Holland, and I believe in Germany. We
(31:12):
were teammates during the exhibition in Milan. Wehelped each other and we travelled together. And
he's in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], and he's a lot of fun.OF: If you're famous for what you've done in
bamboo, what is he well known for in furniture?CH: Oh he's done many things. His most famous
work is a stool which he calls a 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
Stool. He’s very enlightening.OF: If you had one question that you
(31:36):
would ask 陈旻 [Chén Mín], what would you ask?CH: Oh! As an architect, I've created chairs.
As an industrial designer, whatwould he create for architecture,
as a city? What would he do as a city planner?OF: Yeah, that's a great question. Thank
you so much, Haoru.CH: Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]
I’m a city boy, and I imagine many peoplelistening are the same. We dip our toes into the
(32:03):
countryside a few times a year and say “well isn’tthat nice”. But not many of us urban types truly
allow ourselves to learn what rural life can teachus about our so-called modern, sophisticated ways.
So it’s always refreshing to get a reminder aboutthis, and doubly so to hear from someone who has
little interest in the massive growth and scalethat is so often tied in to stories about China.
(32:28):
If you’re interested in other episodes whichtouch upon these themes of cities versus
countryside in China, then I would pointyou towards the documentarian Noah Sheldon
from Season 01 Episode 09, his work is largelyfocused on labourers from the countryside who
end up in urban and industrial settings. Thenthere’s the episode with the playwright Nick
(32:50):
Yu from Season 01 Episode 13, who talks a lotabout his roots in rural 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province.
And finally, please check out the episode withthe Douglon Tse from Season 02 Episode 15,
who talks about rural life specifically onan island, also in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province.
Back to today’s episode, I realised that wenever mentioned the school where Haoru teaches,
(33:14):
it’s the China Academy of Art (CAA). The School ofArchitecture there was created by 王澍 [Wáng Shù],
and Haoru has been teaching there since 2004.Also, Haoru hasn’t bought an electric car yet,
but he says he’s saving up for the Lotus Eletre.And finally his good friend 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] has left
the commune these days, but he and Haoru are goingto try and create something new together soon.
(33:40):
On the subject of new things, you can see photosof the new countryside youth hostel project that
Haoru mentioned in all the usual places, eitheron the Mosaic of China website, on social media,
or integrated into the video version of thisepisode on YouTube. Whichever you choose, you’ll
also find there his favourite WeChat sticker;a photo of Haoru with his object, the model of
(34:04):
the book kiosk he designed at architecture school;and photos that I took at the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune
project which I visited together with Haoru.The buildings are still standing ten years on,
and I took a selfie with the piggies whoseemed very happy in their bamboo canopy.
Just looking at these photos today reallymade me connect the dots between those
(34:24):
animals - those organisms - and the organic bambooarchitecture itself. The cells in our bodies are
in a constant state of rejuvenation, to theextent that the Oscar in that photo is - on
a cellular level - not the same Oscar as thecollection of cells speaking to you right now.
That’s organic architecture (34:41):
the pig barn stays the same, even as its bamboo structure
and grass roofing exist in a constantstate of replacement and rejuvenation.
As always there’s a longer version ofmy interview with Haoru available on
(35:03):
the PREMIUM version of the show, on Patreon orApple Podcasts Subscriptions internationally,
or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. Just searchfor mosaicofchina on those platforms,
and here are some clips from whatyou’ll find there from today’s show:
[Clip 1]CH: Specifically, we were hired
by the same client, that’s how we met.OF: Right.
[Clip 2]CH: The chicken
(35:24):
farmer came back at 49. She had nothing todo, so she was happy to be raising chicken.
[Clip 3]CH: A Tensegrity structure, which
is floating bars that are connected with cables.[Clip 4]
OF (35:33):
It really is a sprawl that seems to continue until the horizon.
[Clip 5]CH: You know,
there are cages that you have to choose. We'renot really international people any more.
That’s it. [Clip 6]
CH (35:44):
This huge bankers meeting that's happening in Switzerland…
OF (35:48):
Oh, Davos, yes. CH
Yes. [Clip 7]
CH (35:53):
Bamboo, in 2-3 months during the spring, can shoot up to as high as 10 metres.
[Clip 8]OF: The scaffolding has
always been made out of bamboo, right?CH: That practice, sadly, has been
stopped in China.[Clip 9]
And there were big bucks to be made, but I don't think
I'm so good at it.[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
(36:16):
Stick around for a catch-up conversation withthe person who referred Haoru to the Mosaic,
the handicrafts designer Jovana Zhang, from Season02 Episode 08. We’ll be taking some time off for
the Golden Week holidays in China coming up,but we’ll be back soon for the next episode.
[Catch-Up Interview]
OF (36:43):
Hello Jovana. JZ
Great to see you, you’re looking well. JZ
last 2-3 months renovating ouroffice. And it's not ready yet,
but we’ve already moved in. And we have tables,air conditioners and windows, but no doors.
(37:03):
Maybe not the most secure place, but at least you have nice wind.
JZ (37:09):
Yeah, it's really hot. So we were dying in the storage room where we were working for the
last two months. So we were rushing to move in.OF: I luckily managed to visit you when we did
our original recording, that was probably about18 months ago. You - and your husband, and another
partner - you run a creative agency, and youalso have a library of artefacts from handicrafts
(37:35):
across China, based in this small village.Tell me about some of your recent projects.
Yes, we do have a design studio here. We do have another 30
people working with us, young people whomoved to the village. We are kind of a
new community of young villagers. All of ourprojects are related to contemporary design,
(37:58):
inspired by traditional crafts. So in the lastyear or so, I was doing a small project with IKEA,
and window displays for JNBY. And…OF: What's that? I don't know that.
JNBY. This is a 杭州 [Hángzhōu]-based fashion company. And they have a group of many brands.
(38:20):
So they are contemporary, arty, and low-key, butvery huge. It's really a different kind of client,
very open, full of freedom. So I've beenenjoying my work lately quite a lot. Last year,
that was the first window, and it was inspiredby the handcraft of small cages made for cicadas.
OF (38:45):
That’s great. JZ
that we do have some little plan of coming toShanghai with a little library. So that is news.
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. JZ
we are going to visit some spaces, and we aretrying to establish a little paper library
in Shanghai. I think it is a little bitnecessary to connect better with Shanghai.
(39:09):
Yeah, well said. In ordinary times maybe it wouldn't be necessary, but certainly now
where you're just in the next-door provinceof 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], but it might as well be a
different country sometimes, right?JZ: Yes. Which is bizarre, you know.
Here we are. JZ
Well, I'm glad you're still smiling. Thank you so much for your time. As for you and the project,
(39:33):
being in Season 02 you were sandwiched betweensomebody who referred you from Season 01,
and then your referral to Season03. So are you in touch with the
person from Season 01, Noah Sheldon?JZ: Yes, yes, we are. And much more with
his wife, Maggie.OF: Right.
JZ (39:50):
They are opening a design store in Chicago. OF
And she’s been searching for some suppliers from China. And she's been sending to me all the
samples, so I can confirm them. And then I sendher a very detailed reply, like “ This: no, this:
yes, blah, blah, blah, blah.” So I've been intouch with Maggie. And Haoru was doing a building
(40:14):
in our village, which is open now. And he was inour home two days ago. I just came from yoga class
and I was like “Oh, hi Haoru!”OF: Oh.
Good friends. OF
I will be releasing this catch-up with you atthe end of the episode with Haoru, so I hope that
(40:34):
you can listen to his episode when it comes out.JZ: Cool, nice.
OF (40:37):
Although I know that you have still not listened to your episode, right?
JZ (40:42):
No. It's OK. I know all the things I have to know about myself.
I don't listen to my recordings, I don'twatch my videos, I can never do that.
OF (40:53):
Yes. JZ
I actually can completely relate to you. But sadly, I have to listen
to my own voice all the damn time. Andyeah, it's not a pleasant experience.
JZ (41:05):
Yeah. OF
that I have a chance to see you again, eitherup in the mountains where you are, or when you
come to Shanghai to open up your paper museum. Solet's definitely catch up again in person soon.
Yes, yes. Thank you Oscar, I really hope to see you soon.
[Trailer]CH: So at that time we realised “OK,
(00:04):
architecture is part of agriculture”.OF: Nice.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode is with the architect陈浩如 Chén Hàorú. We’ve had an architect
on the podcast before, it was the lovelyWendy Saunders from Season 02 Episode 12.
(00:30):
So I was a bit nervous about having anotherone on the show, since I was wondering whether
there would be too much overlap. But as you’llhear, there is absolutely no overlap at all!
That’s not to say that Haoru and Wendy aretotally opposite, in many ways they’re not.
But Wendy’s story was about bringing herEuropean eye to China, and we talked a lot
(00:51):
about the evolution of the built environmentin Shanghai. With Haoru, we’re talking about
someone with a Chinese and American eye, workingin entirely different environments, and with
an overarching philosophy that challenges ourideas of permanence and architectural identity.
Indeed, what sets Haoru’s story apart from almostall the other episodes of Mosaic of China, is that
(01:15):
we’re not just talking about growing a business,we’re talking about growing a movement. One that
has taken Haoru from the streets of New York toa pig farm in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province. We recorded
this conversation in a hotel roomwith too many reflective surfaces,
so the resulting audio is a little echoey.Your ears should tune into this quickly enough,
(01:36):
but if you do have any trouble understandingthen please follow the transcript on the
Mosaic of China website, or watchthe video with captions on YouTube.
[Part 1]OF:
Well, thank you so much for coming. We arecurrently in a hotel room in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and I
am with 陈浩如 Chén Hàorú. Hello Haoru.CH: Hello.
OF (01:58):
I have been doing a few of these interviews outside of Shanghai. Which is nice, because a
lot of the previous two seasons have been veryShanghai-based. And it's fun for me, because the
city itself becomes almost like an extra guest inthe show. So before we jump into our conversation,
how long have you been here in 杭州 [Hángzhōu]?CH: Well, it's a good question. I was born
(02:22):
here in the 70s. Then I went to the U.S, NewYork. I was there about 15 years, and then
I came back in the year 2000/2001. You know, Iwould go back to New York, and come back here;
go to Shanghai or go to Beijing; and go to Europefor exhibitions and come back. There was not a
clear definition of which city that I actuallylive In, I used to live in multiple cities. That
(02:47):
was the previous life we used to have.OF: Right, now with COVID, the luxury
of saying that you are based in multiplelocations is no longer available, right?
CH (02:57):
Yes, we're sort of forced to choose. OF
Sort of stuck in one place. OF
OF (03:03):
But there are worse places to be stuck in. I think 杭州 [Hángzhōu] is a really beautiful
city. And presumably, when you came back from theU.S, that's what you had in mind as well, right?
CH (03:14):
It was very peaceful around the year 2000/2001. 杭州 [Hángzhōu] was
considered a backwater, or ‘内地 [nèidì]’. The cityreally goes around the West Lake. It's a very
unique situation. Because usually we see a centralpark, but 杭州 [Hángzhōu] is a city that was built
around a lake.OF: Yes.
(03:34):
But 杭州 [Hángzhōu] in a sense was kind of insignificant. It was the capital once, about
a thousand years ago - in the 宋 [Sòng] Dynasty,when basically they were forced to relocate
to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] - but after that, it’s beensort of a romantic place for people who are
wandering around, and have no sense of belonging,or are sort of depressed. Depressed politicians,
(03:58):
poets, artists. It's a place to be tucked away.OF: You know what, I've heard of that. Like,
in the 1900s, when people were gettingtired of how China was modernising,
they would escape to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] andbecome Buddhist monks, wouldn't they?
Yes, that was about 100 years ago. And then some people stayed. They would
(04:19):
rather be here in this perpetual holiday.OF: Well, I said that the city we're in
will become like an extra guest of thisshow. I think it's almost to a fault,
because we've talked about 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and Ihaven't really talked about you at all. Briefly,
what do you do here in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], Haoru?CH: I'm an architect by profession. That's
how I came back to 杭州 [Hángzhōu] from New York,
(04:41):
because I actually received a commission here.OF: Great. Well, before we go any further,
what is the object that you have brought thatin some way describes your life here in China?
What do we have here?CH: It's a model of a bookshelf.
OF (04:58):
Oh nice. CH
I made this in college. It's what gotme into the profession of architecture.
It's a kiosk to sell newspapers and magazines.OF: Oh that's what you mean. Right, right, right.
CH (05:11):
Yeah. You see interesting bookstands in Paris. OF
of when you say that.CH You go there and it
opens up. And it's street life. At night,it just closes off and becomes a fortress.
OF (05:22):
That's right, yeah. CH
because then books no longer belongs toone person. They’re shared with the city.
So this was designed to be a free-standing structure in the middle of the street, which
would open up and become a temporary bookstore inthe daytime, and then would shut in the evening.
CH (05:41):
Yes. But you can see other creative bookstore design or bookstand designs.
OF (05:45):
Yes. CH
saw something very interesting in Tokyo recently.OF: You were ahead of your time, maybe.
CH (05:53):
I always feel that. I feel ten or twenty years ahead of my time. I came back a little bit too
early. Now is probably a better time.OF: Yeah.
杭州 [Hángzhōu] has become a boom city. Hotels, and Alibaba…
OF (06:05):
Yeah, where we are doing the recording is in a hotel right next door to one of
Alibaba’s big offices, right?CH: That was built three years
ago. Before that this place was very quiet.OF: And so presumably, you studied architecture in
New York. That was the America side of your story.CH: Yes, I studied engineering, I studied liberal
(06:30):
arts, then I found architecture. Then I stuckwith it. Mostly, I spent my time in New York City:
schools in Harlem, schools in Brooklyn,and in The Village. This environment
that cultivated designers, artists…OF: …And I would say non-conformist
thinkers, right? In that part of New York.CH: Very different from the rest of America.
(06:54):
Right. CH
and 42nd Street. Always a sense of optimism.OF: So you said you received a commission.
CH (07:04):
I received a commission, yes. The first commission was about making a new city,
it was a bank of the river. And therewas nothing there. That's 滨江 [Bīnjiāng],
That's where the huge towers are now. Wecontributed a part of that. But we found
there are problems in the way we are proceedingwith this. One of them is, I saw the construction
(07:24):
workers - we had hundreds of construction workers- they were quite skilled with their hands.
They would use tools and cement, andtried to make something so straight,
that it mimics prefabricated industrial units.We see this everywhere. People use handcraft
to mimic an industrial-era product.OF: And that results in a bad product,
(07:46):
right? Because if you're tryingto mimic something which is
machine-based, the result is going to be lesser.CH: It was also sad. Because we know how good they
are, what great crafts they can produce with theirhands. Yet we're doing something that was designed
to make it faster, cheaper and mass-produced.Trying to catch up, trying to be modern. But
(08:06):
people are paying a huge price for it. Then Irealised maybe we have two ways of doing this. One
is to industrialise and develop progressively. Butthere's always a parallel movement of people going
to the countryside. The Arts and Crafts movementin the UK. In America as well, Frank Lloyd Wright,
going against the machine of modernism. Andin China, I saw this coming. I saw 王澍 [Wáng
(08:31):
Shù]’s work right after I got here.OF: So 王澍 [Wáng Shù], he is someone who
most Chinese people would have heard of, butmaybe if you're not Chinese you may not know,
right? Who is 王澍 [Wáng Shù]?CH: 王澍 [Wáng Shù] is very famous
now. In 2012 he won the Pritzker Prizefor architecture, that’s the equivalent
of the Nobel Prize. He is an architect, nowhe's the dean of the school where I teach.
(08:53):
And his work is very much based in regionalmaterial and climate. I saw his work - his
effort - as being this parallel movement, moresensitive towards localism, equality issues.
When something’s demolished, what do you do withthe demolished material? He put it in his walls,
as a statement. So when 王澍 [Wáng Shù] invited meto go teach in 2004, he was starting a school,
(09:19):
and I knew what he was thinking, so I said “Yes”.It was a lot of free thinking and experimentation,
I was able to think about a social and artisticmovement. And thinking back, that was a very
exciting time. I found a pool of great people,great talents, and I was happy to be part of them.
OF (09:39):
Yeah. So let's go into some detail. We talked about how you
had this idea. So what did you end up doing?CH: 2012 was a very important year. From that
year, we started receiving commissions from thecountryside. Society had somewhat changed. There
was increasing amount of attention being paidtowards the countryside. We did our first project
the next year (10:03):
the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune project. OF
that overlaps with the person who referred you,Jovana Zhang. So let me play you something now.
[Start of Audio Clip]Jovana ZHANG:
I am suggesting that you talk with Haoru. Heis an architect, he’s based in 杭州 [Hángzhōu].
(10:25):
He's doing a lot of things that involve bamboostructure. I think he has a lot of things to say
about the architecture of China.[End of Audio Clip]
CH (10:36):
Thank you, Jovana. OF:
Tell me what your relationship waswith Jovana, how do you know her?
In 2011, I went to a meeting about a show somewhere. They invited architects and handicraft
designers. I met Jovana, I met the whole gang. AndI thought “Great, this was the 杭州 [Hángzhōu] Art
(10:57):
and Crafts revolution”. I thought “Great, I wantto be part of that”. Then we went on to do shows,
exhibitions. We went to Milan Design Week, ourshow was called called ‘Handmade In Hangzhou,
First Material (11:08):
Bamboo’. And this exhibition was so popular, they moved the exhibition to Paris,
to The Louvre. So it was like an instant hit.OF: This is what connects us to the project
you just started to mention, right?CH: Yes, I joined this exhibition partially
because of this very interesting material, bamboo.Architecture is supposed to last a hundred years.
(11:33):
The permanency issue of architecture was withoutquestion, until it comes to bamboo. In Japan,
they put two temples side by side. Youwould tear one down, and use the other one,
and then you switched. Everything is in aconstant demolition and reconstruction process.
(11:54):
These temples are so unique and influential in thehistory of architecture, that it just challenges
the permanency idea of architecture. It's alwaysunder perpetual reconstruction and maintenance.
OF (12:06):
Yes. Which in itself is a challenging idea when it comes to architecture from a
modern perspective, where we think about buildingthese massive steel and glass structures that
look like they're permanent forever and ever.CH: As an architect, we know that is not true.
Because very frequently, the building gets knockeddown in 20 years. That is the problem, I think.
(12:28):
But in the countryside, we were able to experimentwith this idea of ‘temporariness’ - you know,
this organic quality of bamboo- with different structures,
other than structures for humans to live. We cameup with these countryside reconstruction projects,
like one of my friends 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] -who knew what I was into - had offered
(12:50):
me a chance to design.OF: Right. And this is
what became known as the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune.CH: That's right. 太阳 [Tàiyáng] is a town name.
And it was a bit far from the city, where the landis quite cheap. So my friend 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] was
able to rent a few acres of semi-abandoned land.And he wanted to create a farm for raising pigs.
(13:15):
Pigs, right. CH
farming trade that wouldn’t lose your investment.OF: Oh, so it was like a guaranteed income idea.
CH (13:24):
It was an income idea. But it was really a problem, because all the villagers were against
it. Because pig barns are notorious for smells.OF: Right.
So the challenge was very interesting. We were to create a structure for raising pigs,
but it needed to have positive reviews, andcould have even visitors. So we had about
three months preparation. We had meetingswith pig farmers, they came to our office
(13:50):
and we learned about the possibilitiesof what you can do, what's not to do.
Then I talked to my client about using bamboo.陈卫 [Chén Wèi] was very open minded, and said “OK,
try it. Do it”. And we created this design,a very durable and simple structure using a
(14:10):
five-pyramid scheme, and covering the structurewith straw. The math worked out, the client was
happy. Then we had to be there to superviseit, to make sure that it was done correctly.
It was just perfect. We wanted it to last atleast three years. If it lasted three years,
we'd know if the farm was a success or failure.So at that time we realised “OK, architecture
(14:36):
is part of agriculture”.OF: Nice. I see.
The solution is within agriculture. You've got rice paddies, you see these
beautiful stone-stacked pathways. Who didit? It was the farmers. One of the main work
for farmers is to do infrastructure.OF: Right, which you would also say
is ‘design,’ it’s ‘architecture’.CH: That is part of architecture.
(14:58):
That's foundation. This foundation forthe rice paddies would continue and form
the foundation for village houses.OF: Yes, they interconnect, right?
Absolutely. Everything’s connected. You're in the valley, nothing comes from the outside,
everything’s from here, then you justhave to assemble them together. That is,
to me, the essence of agriculture.That's how we're meant to survive.
OF (15:20):
Maybe I should ask you about the project itself. We've talked about the architecture side,
what was this idea of the commune?CH: It started with the idea of a pig
farm. It became quite well known, you know “Whatis this huge pig farm that doesn't smell too bad?”
So we did our job quite well. Architecture becamethe media object that everybody talked about.
(15:43):
And from the creation of this architecture, thefarm had an identity. People came here to see
the pigs, feed the pigs, as many as 50,000people visited our farm in the first year.
Oh wow. CH
scope. We made as many as 55 different variationsof vegetables, expanded the animal farm to include
(16:05):
chicken, duck, sheep, goat. And we broughtin more people, so it became an experimental
education ground for rural construction.OF: Which is interesting to me, because you
could have the idea of a commune growingorganic food. But then without having the
symbol of the pig farm - without having thisarchitectural identity - it doesn't become
(16:26):
anything. It was the architectural piece thatgrabbed people's attention, which then led them
to the actual of what you were trying to do.CH: Yes, it was first time for me that I felt
architecture was powerful. This ability that wehave that creates identity - a place - within the
continuous rural space. The farmers areproud to be the producers of good food,
(16:50):
they have their photo put on the product.OF: Oh so ‘this person’ created ‘this product’.
CH (16:56):
Yes, with pride. There are many farms which did similar things before,
in Japan and Taiwan. We learned from them. Butarchitecture-wise, it goes back to Arizona.
There's this tradition in the U.S, where yougo somewhere and create your own universe,
your own order. So at the time, it feltvery much like that, in the commune. That
(17:18):
we're doing something new. There were peoplecoming every day, we had a lot of volunteers,
and made our clients very happy. Itdeveloped into almost like a career.
OF (17:28):
The way you talk about it, you didn't just design and build this pig barn, you almost
became part of this project yourself, right?CH: Yeah, I was a part of the project from
very beginning. That was the understanding,to supervise or help with the management,
and the marketing of the farm.OF: Oh wow.
CH (17:49):
We went to as many as 50-100 exhibitions - conferences, talks - of course, about using
organic architecture. Architecture doesn't needto be permanent. Architecture doesn't have to
be wasteful of energy, or it doesn't have to bedestructive to the environment. Even now we're
doing these exhibitions. People call me to askme to create a new farm somewhere, out in the
(18:13):
west in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], it was just overwhelming.OF: Well that's what I wanted to ask you about.
Because we're talking about this oneproject, which started almost a decade
ago. What was the knock on effect? Have younow built a practice based on that project?
I had never thought of doing this commercially. I've never thought to
become a CEO of a huge firm, who does this thingand that thing. Because it started with such an
(18:37):
anti-establishment, anti-urban culture. Myself,I don't think this really works with this sort
of centralised planning strategy. I think it wouldremain a movement, done by everyone, everywhere.
OF (18:50):
Organic, right? It would spread organically. CH
movement, right? These boutiquehotels, there are perfect in using
architecture - using design - to awaken one area.OF: That's exactly what you make me think about.
Little guest houses that I see popping up inthe countryside all over China. You build a
(19:10):
nice 民宿 [mínsù] - a nice guest house - and thenit attracts people who then can revitalise an
otherwise ignored small village, right?CH: You know, I got this wake-up call.
In Switzerland, I went to see the works ofgreat masters in the mountains. In the city,
you see all this architecture thrown together.And yet individually, they are so insignificant.
(19:32):
It doesn’t matter how great the architect, howbeautiful the material, you’re just one piece of
the city. Everybody just sort of compromises, youknow, they fight each other. But some architects
have this dream to do more. Architecturalbecomes part of the landscape, it defines
the place. We just have to plan it smartly.OF: Is this what you're working on, these days?
CH (19:54):
I am working on a youth hostel in the rural area of 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province, near 黄山 [Huángshān]
surrounded by beautiful scenery. The place hasno people. So to do anything is impossible,
for construction. Of course you couldn’tfind workers for restaurants. Nobody,
right? So could this be reversed?OF: Right, so this youth hostel,
(20:15):
you build the identity, and then young peoplecan come back and revitalise an otherwise
ignored part of the country.CH: Yes, we're trying to use
architecture again.OF: Yes.
So that young people would want to go. OF
it on their social media, and hopefully that willhave a knock-on effect with other people going,
It just accelerates things. Originally we were thinking it’ll take maybe five years,
(20:36):
this movement. Maybe it’ll take five months, ifwhat you do is correct. If I do it correctly,
I wouldn't need to promote my own work.OF: Others will do it for you.
Yeah, they will find a better angle to tell them the story.
Then it becomes really interesting.OF: Well, we started our conversation
talking about 杭州 [Hángzhōu], whydon't we finish this part and say
(20:58):
“Where do you see the city going in the future?”CH: The city is still changing. Maybe we will have
a new city centre in the West. They're buildingthe tallest building in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] there. A
giant train station that connects the west andnorth, where Alibaba is. And in the south - where
we are - they are creating this new region,maybe the provincial capital will be moved here.
(21:19):
I think the city will be transformed.West Lake will be indeed the Central Park.
For 杭州 [Hángzhōu] it used to be ‘nature surroundsman’. Now it's truly ‘man surrounds nature’.
OF (21:31):
Mmm. This city is going to be more and more on the map in the future.
CH (21:34):
Yeah. OF
government wants to sponsor this episode, they'remore than welcome. Thank you so much, Haoru.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK,
Part 2. I ask the same 10 questions to everyguest. Question 1, brought to us by Shanghai
Daily (21:55):
What is your favourite China-related fact? CH
regions have different architects. Shanghaiarchitects are definitely more urban, boutique,
trendy, diverse. For 杭州 [Hángzhōu], maybe it's abit more uniform. The small studios are very much
associated with schools, and the topics are morerelated to culture, environment, nature, crafts.
With 云南 [Yúnnán], it's about 远方 [Yuǎnfāng]: ‘Faraway’ architecture. It's much more rural, (22:22):
undefined
it’s highly personal, and architects love to gothere. Most of them are not from 云南 [Yúnnán]. Most
of China sees 云南 [Yúnnán] as this getaway place.OF: Yes.
CH (22:40):
And if you go to 广州 [Guǎngzhōu], they have a very strong southern tradition,
being a very different climate. The colour,materials, are all very different, very unique.
More colourful, more lively. China’s so big…OF: Yeah, that's a little taster of the different
architectural styles. Thank you. Question 2,which comes to us from the language learning
company, Rosetta Stone (23:03):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
CH (23:08):
Wow. I’ll say ‘liberation’ right: 解放 [Jiěfàng]. Please, you know,
lift the blockade!OF: Yes. 解放 [Jiěfàng]
is a good answer. Question 3, what isyour favourite destination within China?
I have to say, if you drive, you can actually go into the mountains without much danger. You
(23:34):
know, one of the first places from where weare - the 杭州 [Hángzhōu] or Shanghai area - is
to go to the Southwest. I did that recently.OF: In 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province still, right?
It starts in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], and then 福建 [Fújiàn]. We went to a lot of villages in these
areas, like 龙泉 [Lóngquán].OF: 龙泉 [Lóngquán], oh.
Yeah, ‘Dragon Spring’, where you will find ceramics for tea.
(23:55):
And they make swords.OF: Oh, right.
Yeah. Why would they make them there? If you go there, you'll find out. They’re in the
mountains, but they're connected through waterto 杭州 [Hángzhōu] and 泉州 [Quánzhōu]. So this road
from 杭州 [Hángzhōu] to 泉州 [Quánzhōu] is veryinteresting. On this road, you find countless
beautiful villages and bridges we call 廊桥[lángqiáo]: This endless roadway of China.
OF (24:19):
There's a nice connection also with the Mosaic of China, because in Season
01 a couple of people said 杭州 [Hángzhōu] was theirfavourite destination, including Astrid Poghosyan,
the violinist. And last season - Season 02 -there was an improvisational comedian called
Michelle Qu, and she chose 泉州 [Quánzhōu] asher favourite destination. So 龙泉 [Lóngquán]
(24:39):
is right in the middle of those two.CH: Yeah, if you go there, it's just very
lively. It's different from the northwest.OF: Nice, thank you so much. Next question,
if you left China, what would you miss themost and what would you miss the least?
CH (24:55):
It's about freedom. In China, you're free to do many things. You basically travel between
regions. So it's this kind of variety and freedomto travel within the borders, it’s kinda good.
What I’ll miss the least (25:08):
China is still kind of closed-border. The great wall of fire.
OF (25:14):
The Great Firewall? CH
the thing I’d miss the least.OF: Yeah.
CH (25:18):
I think that's terrible. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?CH: It's how fast it changes. That is really
frightening and surprising. Everyfield is changing. So it makes me
wonder, do we age well in such a society?OF: Yeah. What about in your field? What is
(25:42):
changing the fastest in the world of architecture?CH: New projects keep on popping up in the
countryside. New architects, new places, newpeople. I didn't expect it to be so soon,
maybe time passed a little toofast. We can't keep up with it.
OF (25:57):
Now when I go around the countryside, I do see things that have been made by architectural firms
from Beijing from Shanghai.CH: Yes.
There are now a lot of people who are trying to do the same thing
you are doing, right? In the countryside.CH: Yeah, we're running into each other. It’s good
because it fosters competition that creates theenvironment that you're working towards a similar
(26:19):
goal. The countryside’s more open, I think.OF: There's more room for experimentation.
CH (26:24):
Oh, definitely. Yeah, the urban sites, they are more competitive.
OF (26:29):
The next question, which comes to us from SmartShanghai
go out, to eat, or drink, or just hang out?CH: In the place where I'm working now,
遂昌 [Suìchāng], there is a restaurant where you canhave all these unique foods from the countryside.
You've probably never seen it anywhere else. Theyput herbal plants in every course of the meal.
(26:52):
Oh. CH
get to have the meal while watching the theatre.OF: Oh, really?
CH (26:59):
Yeah, the place is known for the creator of many dramas called 汤显祖 [Tāng Xiǎnzǔ], Supposedly
he wrote all his dramas in this town. Tocelebrate him, they create theatres for the
restaurants, and that has become a tradition.OF: And so there's more than one of
these places in this town.CH: Yes. I find that to be two
worlds put together.OF: Yeah.
You just have to go there. OF
(27:21):
Very rural. OF
the best or worst purchase youhave made recently in China?
Oh, can I say something that I didn't buy? OF
Yeah, I'm looking to buy an electric car. That is something that I might have to get.
OF (27:39):
Yeah. CH
in a city where they’ve posted restrictions onnormal cars, gas cars. So that kind of restriction
is making everybody buy electric cars.OF: Why haven't you bought one already?
CH (27:51):
I didn't buy one, because the choices, they’re so baffling. There are so many. But that is
definitely something that's coming towards us.OF: Well, there'll be a delay between this
recording and when it is released. So maybeby the time it's released, you would have
already bought it.CH: Maybe.
OF (28:09):
Maybe, right. Next question, what’s your favourite WeChat sticker?
Oh, nice. Can you explain this oneCH: Yes, it’s an algorithm. It's
basically a calculated movement of an insect.OF: Nice. It's so simple, but it's quite hypnotic.
CH (28:28):
Yes. OF
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?CH: Maybe a Taiwanese singer, 齐秦 [Qí Qín]:
'北方的狼 [Běifāng de Láng]’. ‘Wolf from the North.’OF: Oh, nice.
It’s kind of funny. This imagination of this lonely wolf from the North. It’s an interesting
(28:48):
term in Taiwan. It's funny.OF: It's from which era?
80s. OF
who is your best source of inspiration in China.CH: There’s island in the middle of the lake here
in 杭州 [Hángzhōu] called Solitude Hill. Poets wouldgo there to be alone. And that became a movement
(29:13):
in the 清 [Qīng] Dynasty, 200 years ago. Thisgroup of artists would go there to form a society,
outside of the city. A counter-culture andanti-establishment spirit that’s always been here.
Our school also claimed that, because the originalschool was established there on the island,
Solitude Hill. So that place is really inspiringfor me. I went there numerous times as a kid.
(29:36):
And now I also go there. It's just sort of inthe middle of the lake, but it’s connected by
causeways and bridges. And you really feellike you're in ancient time. There are tea
houses and stone caves, tombs of great people,and you're in nature. Very well designed places.
OF (29:54):
And can you still find solitude there, even today?
CH (29:57):
Yes. You know, if there are too many people during the day, you just go there at midnight.
OF (30:02):
Right. CH
just walk up the hill, nobody will stop you.OF: That's nice. Because my only image of
that place is in the daytime,on a weekend, full of tourists.
CH (30:11):
Right, yeah. OF
Lovely. Thank you so much for that, Haoru. And Iappreciate everything that you've shared today as
well, about your work and your life. I hope thatthere are more people like you out there, in these
ecological projects and sustainable ideas. Soanyone listening who is inspired by your answers,
(30:31):
I hope that they can get in touch.CH: Thank you, Oscar.
OF (30:34):
The final thing before we close off today is, out of everyone who you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
CH (30:45):
There are a number of people I think would be perfect for your show. But the criteria is also,
they have to speak English.OF: Yeah.
They have to be in China. OF
That was kind of conflicting requirements. OF
Because a lot of them have left! Yeah but one of my friends is still here, 陈旻 [Chén Mín]. He’s
a furniture designer, educated in Milan,in Holland, and I believe in Germany. We
(31:12):
were teammates during the exhibition in Milan. Wehelped each other and we travelled together. And
he's in 杭州 [Hángzhōu], and he's a lot of fun.OF: If you're famous for what you've done in
bamboo, what is he well known for in furniture?CH: Oh he's done many things. His most famous
work is a stool which he calls a 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
Stool. He’s very enlightening.OF: If you had one question that you
(31:36):
would ask 陈旻 [Chén Mín], what would you ask?CH: Oh! As an architect, I've created chairs.
As an industrial designer, whatwould he create for architecture,
as a city? What would he do as a city planner?OF: Yeah, that's a great question. Thank
you so much, Haoru.CH: Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]
I’m a city boy, and I imagine many peoplelistening are the same. We dip our toes into the
(32:03):
countryside a few times a year and say “well isn’tthat nice”. But not many of us urban types truly
allow ourselves to learn what rural life can teachus about our so-called modern, sophisticated ways.
So it’s always refreshing to get a reminder aboutthis, and doubly so to hear from someone who has
little interest in the massive growth and scalethat is so often tied in to stories about China.
(32:28):
If you’re interested in other episodes whichtouch upon these themes of cities versus
countryside in China, then I would pointyou towards the documentarian Noah Sheldon
from Season 01 Episode 09, his work is largelyfocused on labourers from the countryside who
end up in urban and industrial settings. Thenthere’s the episode with the playwright Nick
(32:50):
Yu from Season 01 Episode 13, who talks a lotabout his roots in rural 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province.
And finally, please check out the episode withthe Douglon Tse from Season 02 Episode 15,
who talks about rural life specifically onan island, also in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province.
Back to today’s episode, I realised that wenever mentioned the school where Haoru teaches,
(33:14):
it’s the China Academy of Art (CAA). The School ofArchitecture there was created by 王澍 [Wáng Shù],
and Haoru has been teaching there since 2004.Also, Haoru hasn’t bought an electric car yet,
but he says he’s saving up for the Lotus Eletre.And finally his good friend 陈卫 [Chén Wèi] has left
the commune these days, but he and Haoru are goingto try and create something new together soon.
(33:40):
On the subject of new things, you can see photosof the new countryside youth hostel project that
Haoru mentioned in all the usual places, eitheron the Mosaic of China website, on social media,
or integrated into the video version of thisepisode on YouTube. Whichever you choose, you’ll
also find there his favourite WeChat sticker;a photo of Haoru with his object, the model of
(34:04):
the book kiosk he designed at architecture school;and photos that I took at the 太阳 [Tàiyáng] Commune
project which I visited together with Haoru.The buildings are still standing ten years on,
and I took a selfie with the piggies whoseemed very happy in their bamboo canopy.
Just looking at these photos today reallymade me connect the dots between those
(34:24):
animals - those organisms - and the organic bambooarchitecture itself. The cells in our bodies are
in a constant state of rejuvenation, to theextent that the Oscar in that photo is - on
a cellular level - not the same Oscar as thecollection of cells speaking to you right now.
That’s organic architecture (34:41):
the pig barn stays the same, even as its bamboo structure
and grass roofing exist in a constantstate of replacement and rejuvenation.
As always there’s a longer version ofmy interview with Haoru available on
(35:03):
the PREMIUM version of the show, on Patreon orApple Podcasts Subscriptions internationally,
or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. Just searchfor mosaicofchina on those platforms,
and here are some clips from whatyou’ll find there from today’s show:
[Clip 1]CH: Specifically, we were hired
by the same client, that’s how we met.OF: Right.
[Clip 2]CH: The chicken
(35:24):
farmer came back at 49. She had nothing todo, so she was happy to be raising chicken.
[Clip 3]CH: A Tensegrity structure, which
is floating bars that are connected with cables.[Clip 4]
OF (35:33):
It really is a sprawl that seems to continue until the horizon.
[Clip 5]CH: You know,
there are cages that you have to choose. We'renot really international people any more.
That’s it. [Clip 6]
CH (35:44):
This huge bankers meeting that's happening in Switzerland…
OF (35:48):
Oh, Davos, yes. CH
Yes. [Clip 7]
CH (35:53):
Bamboo, in 2-3 months during the spring, can shoot up to as high as 10 metres.
[Clip 8]OF: The scaffolding has
always been made out of bamboo, right?CH: That practice, sadly, has been
stopped in China.[Clip 9]
And there were big bucks to be made, but I don't think
I'm so good at it.[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
(36:16):
Stick around for a catch-up conversation withthe person who referred Haoru to the Mosaic,
the handicrafts designer Jovana Zhang, from Season02 Episode 08. We’ll be taking some time off for
the Golden Week holidays in China coming up,but we’ll be back soon for the next episode.
[Catch-Up Interview]
OF (36:43):
Hello Jovana. JZ
Great to see you, you’re looking well. JZ
last 2-3 months renovating ouroffice. And it's not ready yet,
but we’ve already moved in. And we have tables,air conditioners and windows, but no doors.
(37:03):
Maybe not the most secure place, but at least you have nice wind.
JZ (37:09):
Yeah, it's really hot. So we were dying in the storage room where we were working for the
last two months. So we were rushing to move in.OF: I luckily managed to visit you when we did
our original recording, that was probably about18 months ago. You - and your husband, and another
partner - you run a creative agency, and youalso have a library of artefacts from handicrafts
(37:35):
across China, based in this small village.Tell me about some of your recent projects.
Yes, we do have a design studio here. We do have another 30
people working with us, young people whomoved to the village. We are kind of a
new community of young villagers. All of ourprojects are related to contemporary design,
(37:58):
inspired by traditional crafts. So in the lastyear or so, I was doing a small project with IKEA,
and window displays for JNBY. And…OF: What's that? I don't know that.
JNBY. This is a 杭州 [Hángzhōu]-based fashion company. And they have a group of many brands.
(38:20):
So they are contemporary, arty, and low-key, butvery huge. It's really a different kind of client,
very open, full of freedom. So I've beenenjoying my work lately quite a lot. Last year,
that was the first window, and it was inspiredby the handcraft of small cages made for cicadas.
OF (38:45):
That’s great. JZ
that we do have some little plan of coming toShanghai with a little library. So that is news.
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. JZ
we are going to visit some spaces, and we aretrying to establish a little paper library
in Shanghai. I think it is a little bitnecessary to connect better with Shanghai.
(39:09):
Yeah, well said. In ordinary times maybe it wouldn't be necessary, but certainly now
where you're just in the next-door provinceof 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], but it might as well be a
different country sometimes, right?JZ: Yes. Which is bizarre, you know.
Here we are. JZ
Well, I'm glad you're still smiling. Thank you so much for your time. As for you and the project,
(39:33):
being in Season 02 you were sandwiched betweensomebody who referred you from Season 01,
and then your referral to Season03. So are you in touch with the
person from Season 01, Noah Sheldon?JZ: Yes, yes, we are. And much more with
his wife, Maggie.OF: Right.
JZ (39:50):
They are opening a design store in Chicago. OF
And she’s been searching for some suppliers from China. And she's been sending to me all the
samples, so I can confirm them. And then I sendher a very detailed reply, like “ This: no, this:
yes, blah, blah, blah, blah.” So I've been intouch with Maggie. And Haoru was doing a building
(40:14):
in our village, which is open now. And he was inour home two days ago. I just came from yoga class
and I was like “Oh, hi Haoru!”OF: Oh.
Good friends. OF
I will be releasing this catch-up with you atthe end of the episode with Haoru, so I hope that
(40:34):
you can listen to his episode when it comes out.JZ: Cool, nice.
OF (40:37):
Although I know that you have still not listened to your episode, right?
JZ (40:42):
No. It's OK. I know all the things I have to know about myself.
I don't listen to my recordings, I don'twatch my videos, I can never do that.
OF (40:53):
Yes. JZ
I actually can completely relate to you. But sadly, I have to listen
to my own voice all the damn time. Andyeah, it's not a pleasant experience.
JZ (41:05):
Yeah. OF
that I have a chance to see you again, eitherup in the mountains where you are, or when you
come to Shanghai to open up your paper museum. Solet's definitely catch up again in person soon.
Yes, yes. Thank you Oscar, I really hope to see you soon.
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