November 7, 2022 • 44 mins
Sometimes big themes can be tackled through the guise of performance art. In previous episodes of the podcast, we have explored how drag performers can teach us to embrace our own weirdness, and how clowns can teach us to embrace our own fallibility. These stories may be specific to China, but they apply to us all.
In today’s very special episode, we explore how the world of Shibari (縛り) has made its way from the world of BDSM to the world of Rope Art, and also made its way from Japan to China. And we discover how this art form can make us think about the themes of communication, connection and consent.
The episode also includes a catch-up interview with:
Yang Yi from Season 01 Episode 21
https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-21-yang-yi
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
01:50 - Part 1
27:37 - Part 2
35:42 - Outro
39:26 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at:
https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-09-laodai
Join the community:
https://instagram.com/oscology
https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]L: The trick…
I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick isjust: stay legal.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We as people are all connected.
Emotionally, societally, globally, whicheverway you look at it.
(00:25):
It’s one of the key aspects to Mosaic ofChina, I want this project to be a weekly
reminder of this kind of grand interconnectivityof people and things.
So since we’re talking about being emotionallytied, why not have an episode about being
emotionally tied?
The themes of today’s show are community,self-expression, and consent.
(00:46):
As a society we’ve been talking more aboutthe concept of consent in recent years.
So I wanted to talk to a practitioner forwhom consent is so important that getting
it wrong might even lead to serious injury.
There are certain letters of the alphabetthat we skirt around, such as B, and then
there’s D, and later you might find an S,and then how about M as well?
(01:11):
So if you’re wondering at any point duringtoday’s show “Wait, what are we talking
about here?”
or “Why didn’t you ask this question?”
I probably did!
It’s just in the full-length PREMIUM versionof the episode, rather than this regular version.
So if you want the full story, let me remindyou right from the start to head to the Mosaic
of China website for all the details on howto subscribe.
(01:35):
With that having been said, I’m going togive you a few seconds to decide whether you
would prefer to skip this episode.
OK, do I have your consent to continue?
Good, then let’s proceed.
And you can say ‘No’ and stop at any time.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Davide.
L (01:53):
Thank you for inviting me.
OF (01:55):
My pleasure.
For the purpose of this conversation, I'mgoing to call you by the name which you're
known for, which is Laodai.
L (02:02):
Exactly.
OF (02:04):
And can you explain what 老戴 [Lǎodài] means?
L (02:07):
I have no idea, honestly.
I googled it, it means like ‘wearing’.
OF (02:12):
Like to put on glasses, to put on a scarf, it’s to wear…
L (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So basically, people in the community startedcalling me this, probably because of my name.
OF (02:23):
Ah, because it sounds like your real name.
L (02:25):
Right.
‘Dai-vide,’ something like that.
And then I’ve stuck with it.
OF (02:28):
Yeah.
L (02:29):
It’s easy.
OF (02:30):
It's common to be known as ‘老 [Lǎo]’-something-something, right?
L (02:32):
Exactly.
OF (02:33):
So it shows that you are in some way venerated.
I'm glad that somebody gave you that name,and you didn't give it to yourself.
L (02:39):
Oh yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t.
And the character is very complicated, soI really cannot write it.
OF (02:45):
Well if there's one 汉字 [hànzì] you should learn, I guess it should be that one.
Come on.
L (02:50):
Probably.
OF (02:51):
Well, we are not yet giving away any clues as to what you do.
But maybe the next question I ask will bea clue.
Tell me, what object did you bring that insome way represents your life here in China?
L (03:05):
I think it will be more than a hint.
OF (03:08):
OK.
L (03:09):
So I brought a seven-metre hemp rope.
I want to be specific about the material,because it will be important.
OF (03:17):
OK.
I should ask, why should you be specific aboutthe material?
L (03:22):
Because basically - I think I’ll go straight to the point - I use it to tie up people.
Because I'm rope artist.
We can say ‘bondage artist’.
OF (03:36):
Mm-hmm.
So I'm guessing it's safer to say ‘ropeartist’ than ‘bondage artist.’
L (03:41):
It’s more accepted, let’s say this.
OF (03:44):
Got it.
Well I know that, because the reason I knowyou is because I went to the 40th birthday
party of a mutual friend of ours - ciao, Alberto- and you were doing a show there, which you
could call a ‘bondage show,’ a ‘ropeshow’.
Why don't you talk through what I saw at thatparty.
L (04:05):
That's what I do, basically.
It’s 縛り [Shibari] Art, 縛り [Shibari]is the name from Japanese.
OF (04:11):
縛り [Shibari].
L (04:12):
It’s very hard to explain if you haven’t seen it.
It’s a mix between art and emotional connectionand mutual trust, where there are two people
playing around with ropes.
Basically it’s me tying my model in an emotionalway, and you can create a kind of performance.
OF (04:34):
Right.
Yes, that was what I experienced as an audiencemember.
And not expecting it, I was quite shocked.
Where to start?
I mean, you did say that it needed to be hemp.
Is that because that's comfortable on skin,is it?
L (04:49):
Actually, because it's uncomfortable on skin.
OF (04:52):
Oh.
L (04:53):
Compared to cotton or other materials.
But the main reason is, cotton is more elastic,it can stretch more.
Hemp stays steel, and you can create thattension that really restricts people.
The thing was born to be uncomfortable, it’sabout the enjoyment to be restricted - to
(05:15):
be submitted, we can say - and the enjoymentto submit and control somebody else.
Consensually.
So if it’s comfortable, it doesn't reallymake too much sense for me.
OF (05:28):
Yeah, that's not the point.
L (05:31):
Yes.
OF (05:32):
You said that it was a Japanese art form.
What was the name again?
L (05:36):
縛り [Shibari].
OF (05:37):
What is that, then?
Let's start at the basics.
What is 縛り [Shibari]?
L (05:41):
It's a very complicated question, because it’s a lots of things together.
OF (05:45):
Yeah.
L (05:46):
I can tell you what is my view of 縛り [Shibari].
So it's basically an erotic art form bornin Japan, 縛り [Shibari] means ‘to tie'
basically, in Japanese.
But everybody who practices this art developshis own style and his own way to do it.
So it's a very personal thing, and everybodyhas his own personal definition.
(06:11):
If you want to hear mine…OF: Yeah.
I focus more on the emotional side of the thing.
Because I think you can only achieve the realbeauty of the performance if you share deep
emotion, and if you find a deep connectionwith the model.
I started for the artistic side of it, becauseI'm an artist also.
(06:33):
And I thought at the very beginning that itwas only about the pattern of the ropes.
OF (06:37):
Right.
L (06:38):
I discovered, through the process and the years, that beauty - the beauty I was looking
for - is achievable through the emotionalconnection.
OF (06:47):
OK, so when you're talking about the rope side, we're talking about the beauty of knots?
Is that what you mean?
L (06:55):
That's a component.
No, it’s the beauty of the whole final result.
The knots, the pattern, the posture, the model’sexpression.
And also the feelings that come out from theperformance.
It’s more about a dance, and they need todance with passion.
(07:18):
And then you say “Oh, they're very good.
I'm crying.”
Or whatever.
OF (07:22):
Right.
And is it supposed to be, in that case, anartwork which is set on a stage and for others
to see?
Or is it something which was designed to beprivate?
L (07:32):
I’m not sure, I believe it started as a private activity.
And when you start to see the beauty of it,they probably started to shoot it.
There are a lot of pictures.
And then they started to make performances.
I mean, there are a lot of dynamics, it’snot only about beauty, it's also about excitement
(07:55):
and tension.
So some people look for those elements, morethan the beauty of the pattern.
OF (08:01):
You’ve been doing this for how long now?
L (08:04):
I think, six years now.
OF (08:06):
So what was your story about how you found out about this?
L (08:09):
Yes, the very very first impact was an art exhibition of 荒木 [Araki].
OF (08:16):
荒木 [Araki], that's an artist?
L (08:18):
Yes, he’s a photographer of very erotic pictures, back in the 60s I guess.
OF (08:23):
With ropes, or..?
L (08:24):
With ropes, yes.
I was really kind of obsessed about this.
Like super super into it.
And I tried to find out more about this art.
Now you can find a lot, but before it wasvery very hard.
They were very random.
Some were not the real thing, it’s justmore like a decorating pattern.
(08:46):
So it was quite hard.
But I started tying my leg, the basic knot.
OF (08:50):
Oh you tied your own leg?
L (08:52):
Yes.
That's how everybody starts.
OF (08:54):
Aha.
L (08:55):
Because it’s practice, you need to get the muscle memory.
Then I remember, I found in the street thiskind of mannequin.
And I started to tie my first body patternon the mannequin.
But that wasn't very effective, because it'svery hard plastic.
And it didn't have any arms or legs, it wasjust the chest.
OF (09:16):
Oh wow, you are a serial killer.
L (09:18):
No, no, it was a plastic mannequin.
It’s useless basically to use a mannequin,because the feeling is completely different,
and the tension you can put on a human bodyis very different.
The rope gets tighter in a different way.
So I was stuck.
To improve more, I had to find a real person.
OF (09:38):
Right.
L (09:39):
And I found this girl who is actually still my Japanese business partner.
And she was my first model, meeting her startedthe whole process.
And I was very very lucky, it was like winningthe lottery.
OF (09:55):
So she actually could teach you, as a teacher almost.
L (09:58):
No, no, she doesn’t know a single knot.
She didn't at the time, now she knows a little.
Because when you do 縛り [Shibari] thereare two roles, a ‘rigger’ who ties, and
a ‘model.’
OF (10:09):
A ‘rigger’, OK.
L (10:10):
Yeah.
And the model is just being the model, sodoesn't really care about the techniques.
OF (10:15):
Yes.
L (10:16):
But she taught me a lot in terms of dynamics, and connection, and how the model feels.
At that stage in my mind was only an art practice,nothing more.
And she's actually the one that opened tome the concept of the emotional tie, rather
than the artistic tie.
OF (10:35):
Got it.
And so she could tell you "Yeah, this feelsgood”, “No, this is too tight”…
L (10:41):
Yeah.
More than physical sensations, she was tellingme things like “I feel this is a little
empty, I feel you're focusing more on theknot than me.”
More, the connection side.
And then I learned a lot because I realised“OK, I'm not tying for my pleasure, or for
making something like a sculpture.
I’m tying for communal pleasure.
(11:03):
So I don't need to focus on the rope, I needto focus on her.”
It's about how you tie, and how you touch,and how you give your feelings to the model.
You can see a lot of shows, it's beautifulchoreography but if there's no connection,
it’s not beautiful emotions coming out.
OF (11:22):
Yes, you said choreography.
It makes me think almost like figure skatingor like ballroom dancing, right?
Where you see two people, and they're doingan art form.
But there is a sensuality, and there is thiscommunication between the two people that
you could describe as being emotional.
So I can sort of see it through that prism.
L (11:41):
Yes.
It is.
The dynamics are very similar.
I believe doing rope can boost your sexuallife, but I also believe going dancing, tango,
salsa night…
OF (11:52):
Yes.
L (11:53):
I believe it’s the same dynamic.
OF (11:54):
Yes.
You said before how this was a process whereyou were learning, and your model must have
been very patient as you were going throughthis learning process.
Were there any specific mistakes that youmade at the beginning?
L (12:06):
Mistakes, I think, are part of the learning process.
As long as you’re learning basic stuff,you just do the wrong knot and then basically
you redo it.
In terms of when you're getting more confident- and you try more difficult and dangerous
things like suspension - then mistakes usuallycause injuries for the model.
(12:32):
So it's better not to try things that youhaven’t practiced a lot.
But mistakes still happen.
I’m very glad I’ve never been a rushedlearner.
In my career, I experienced just one injury.
The most common injury in rope is nerve damageof the arms.
(12:54):
So if you press a nerve a lot, you damageit, and you cannot use the nerve for a while.
OF (12:59):
Like, a week or two, or..?
L (13:01):
Yes.
Like a dead hand for some days.
OF (13:05):
And in that situation, what would have happened?
That would have been you doing the wrong knot?
Or a communication issue between you and themodel?
L (13:12):
I think the fault was between both of us.
Because my fault was not being that focused,to notice something was wrong.
And on the model’s side, she didn't letme know some problem was going on.
OF (13:26):
I see.
So she was in some discomfort, but didn'tknow that it was a problem.
L (13:30):
Yes.
That's why a model is a role, it’s not justa tool.
So models have to learn about their body,and improve in that role of a model.
So…
OF (13:43):
Yes.
They’re learning, just like you're learning.
L (13:45):
Yes, yes.
I mean, there is no real school of modelling,it’s more about practice.
OF (13:49):
Yeah.
L (13:50):
But it is.
I can tell if I’m tying somebody that hasbeen tied fifty times, compared to somebody
tied five times.
I can tell.
OF (13:58):
Aha.
L (13:59):
There is the risk awareness.
Like everything has, like sports.
OF (14:03):
Yes.
Which then comes down to consent.
L (14:05):
Yes.
OF (14:06):
Because I'm guessing that at each point there is some kind of communication?
Or do you just get all the consent at thebeginning?
How does that work?
L (14:13):
Consent is the main thing.
Because it's not only putting rope againstthe body, it’s about touching the body.
And it’s about doing things like pullinghair, or grabbing the neck.
You don't know people’s past, so you don'tknow if what you’re doing can trigger some
traumas or something.
OF (14:32):
Aha.
L (14:33):
So when you tie somebody, you have to talk beforehand.
Actually when you do every S/M practice, youhave to talk and get consent.
And when you ask somebody for consent, neverask “Is there something you don't like?”
Because they cannot think of every possibleoption you can go through.
(14:53):
So when you ask for consent, just state everythingyou would like to do, and get a yes or no.
OF (14:59):
Can I tie this arm?
Can I… what?
L (15:02):
Can I whisper in your ear?
Can I give you a soft kiss on the neck?
Can I grab?
Can I squeeze?
I go through all these things.
I mean I'm not that crazy, so I have the 10-15things I like doing, so I cover all of those
beforehand.
OF (15:17):
Yeah.
L (15:18):
Of course, you can talk to me if something is going wrong, or if there is some problem.
And I also maybe slide the hand and see thereaction.
If you see it’s uncomfortable, just stop.
If it's like comfort and excitement, you cango to the next step.
OF (15:36):
Yes.
I mean, this is the thing about consent.
People who…
Let’s say “men” here, right?
Men who think of this idea as "Oh, it's notsexy, when you're stopping what you're doing,
and you're asking things, and making sure…”
Like, I think it is sexy!
L (15:50):
It is.
What I do, I like domination and submissionplay.
That also has to be very consensual.
I mix the consensual questions with play questions.
Like “I'm going to do this.
I know you like it, don’t you?”
Something like this.
And you are free to say “No.”
If they say “Please please, do it,” orif they say “No, sir”…
OF (16:12):
Yes I get it.
It's part of the play.
L (16:15):
It’s like camouflaging the consent.
The thing is, in my position - that I do thisalso, let's say professionally - it happens
a lot that a complete stranger will ask meto get tied in public or privately.
So my risk awareness is very high.
OF (16:31):
Yeah so talk me through then, how would you do your art in that situation?
Versus someone who, let's say, you've workedwith for many years?
L (16:38):
When I do sessions…
Some people pay me to get tied.
OF (16:41):
Yeah.
L (16:42):
Those are called ‘sessions.’
I'm really clear at the beginning, I coverall those discussions.
And I'm very safe.
I don't do too much, even if I maybe wantto.
OF (16:53):
Yeah.
L (16:54):
Also I do a little test, that they don't realise is a test.
Because it's in my beginning routine, whenI tie somebody.
I usually sit behind them, and I push my fistagainst their chest, towards me.
If they abandon themselves completely, I canunderstand they're more submissive.
(17:14):
If they push against me, I can understandthey're not very comfortable or they don't
trust me.
OF (17:20):
Ah.
L (17:21):
So I change the flow of the rope, based on these little things.
OF (17:25):
Yes.
L (17:26):
And also I squeeze the rope very hard.
That allows me to understand the level ofpain they can take, and then I understand
what I can do and what I cannot do.
OF (17:35):
Yes, this is what comes from experience, right?
L (17:37):
Yeah.
OF (17:38):
If you are a new model, it might be good to try and find a more experienced rigger.
Or is it actually nicer for inexperiencedriggers and models to learn together?
L (17:49):
It depends what you want to achieve.
If you're a couple and you want to achieveconnection, me tying her doesn't really make
sense.
It’s better that he learns.
OF (17:59):
Right.
Is that what you also do?
You help couples to do this together?
L (18:02):
Yes, but we need to also keep it legal.
OF (18:05):
What do you mean by that?
L (18:07):
Because there is this law in China, more than two people naked in one room is illegal.
OF (18:14):
Oh, even in the privacy of your own home.
L (18:17):
Yes, yes.
Threesomes are illegal.
OF (18:20):
Mmm-hmm.
Noted!
L (18:22):
Yes, yes.
OF (18:23):
Well, you were saying about your main model.
She was well connected with the scene in Japan.
Why don't we talk then about China?
We're here in China.
You've been doing this now personally andprofessionally for a few years.
So how did that happen for you here in China?
L (18:39):
Every night in Japan, there's a performance or there is a saloon.
There's a lot of legal activities, withoutbreaking any law.
And then I see the same activities are happeningin the world.
And then I question myself “Why is nothinghappening in China?”
And I know the answer actually, because it'smore restrictive.
But it’s about ‘setting the line’.
(19:02):
And then when you set the line, you can doeverything below that line.
OF (19:06):
I see.
L (19:07):
The line in China is lower than Japan, or lower than Europe.
But it’s just about that.
So I came back, and I started to inform myselfabout communities in China.
I found a guy, and became friends with him.
So I said “Let's try to do a party.”
So basically the next month after that, wemade the first public rope event in China.
(19:33):
Me and this guy, 2017, at Roxie.
And everybody was telling me “Why are youdoing this?
Nobody will come.”
But we did it, and forty people came.
And it was quite good, some easy suspension.
And then I started to do it every month.
More and more people started to come.
Every part of the community, like crossdressers,fetish, latex, canine.
OF (19:56):
Oh.
L (19:58):
Everything.
OF (19:59):
Yes.
L (20:00):
The trick…
I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick isjust: stay legal.
We are teaching rope art.
We set the line, and we don't go over thatline.
So no nudity, no real pain, no scars.
OF (20:12):
Yeah.
L (20:13):
And we built, basically, the public community from that.
I'm still learning - you never stop learning- so I'm still going to Japan to meet masters.
But it's very expensive.
So then I got this other idea after a while.
Rather than go there and pay for lessons,what if I invite masters to China?
OF (20:34):
Yes.
That's a win/win.
L (20:36):
Yes.
So I did that, thanks to my model who nowbecame my business partner at this stage.
OF (20:42):
Right.
L (20:43):
Japanese trust Japanese.
So we were able to invite very big names,and make the first ever workshop from Japanese
people in China.
Actually everybody who was interested in ropetraveled from their city to my house.
OF (20:58):
From all over China?
L (20:59):
Kind of.
From 天津 [Tiānjīn], 长沙 [Chángshā],深圳 [Shēnzhèn]…
Because it was a very unique opportunity.
OF (21:06):
Yes.
L (21:07):
Otherwise you have to go to Japan and pay much more.
So they came to my workshop.
And they started to spread the knowledge intheir own cities.
So more communities grew, and they startedto - I will say ‘be inspired.’
I don't want to say ‘copy.’
- they started to be inspired by my activities,and they started to make public rope parties.
(21:32):
They started inviting people from Japan, fromEurope, to teach their workshops.
And it was quite surprising, and they getsome success before COVID.
COVID stopped everything, mostly.
Now - compared to just five years ago - it’sa completely different level of acceptance.
If you look for it, every week in Shanghai,there is a workshop.
OF (21:55):
Really?
L (21:56):
There are different kinds, I'm not the only one.
Different teachers who are teaching theirway, some are more spiritual, some more traditional.
Yoga studios started to have their own ropeart schedule.
OF (22:08):
You're kidding.
L (22:09):
No no, it’s true, it’s true.
OF (22:10):
Oh god.
L (22:11):
Yoga studios are expanding to include some workshops.
OF (22:14):
OK.
L (22:15):
I mean, if you think about silk yoga, aerial yoga…
OF (22:19):
Oh.
L (22:20):
Technically it’s not that different.
OF (22:22):
It's interesting.
Yeah.
L (22:24):
Technically.
OF (22:25):
How, then, is your status in China now?
Like, are you well known here?
L (22:28):
Yeah, it’s also surprising.
There are people - who don't even know myface - who come to my event.
And somebody calls me ‘Laodai,’ and thensuddenly everybody realises that’s me.
And they start to come, asking for picturesor sharing WeChat.
And actually now I'm going on tour.
OF (22:47):
Really?
L (22:48):
Yes, I go to 深圳 [Shēnzhèn], 长沙 [Chángshā], and 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (22:51):
To do these workshops, right?
L (22:53):
Workshops, yes.
And performances.
OF (22:55):
Let me end this part of the conversation by going more into your personal story again.
How has this affected you in terms of yourown sexuality?
L (23:04):
In my experience.
I really tie a lot of different people, menand women.
And I learn my reaction to different people.
And I learn there is a ‘rope love’ thatis different to romantic love with a partner.
How I explain this usually is, you have tothink about the different loves you experience.
(23:26):
In English, you use one word.
The love to your mother is different, butyou still call it ‘love’.
Love towards your friends is another kindof love.
Towards your sexual partner or life partneris another kind of love.
So there is also the rope love.
OF (23:43):
How do you talk about that with your potential romantic partners?
L (23:47):
I'm very honest, because it causes lots of troubles.
OF (23:51):
Yes.
L (23:52):
So basically when I meet somebody, it’s the third answer I give.
Like, what's your name?
Where you from?
And what you do?
I say it then.
OF (24:01):
Yes.
But then don't you scare people off very quickly,if you…
L (24:04):
I do.
I do.
OF (24:06):
Yeah.
L (24:07):
But it easier.
Because if they found out after, it will bemuch harder to explain.
And actually saying it honestly and kindly,it makes it sound more normal than what they
probably imagine.
They don't feel it’s something I want tokeep hidden, or I am ashamed to tell.
OF (24:28):
Yes.
It is interesting.
I mean, I don't know what the right answerwould be.
Because you immediately talk about your fetish- your kink - on the first date.
On the third question, you say.
I might then judge you as like “Ach, thisis someone who doesn't have the right kind
of boundaries, doesn't really know how totalk in a natural way.”
Like, why should you bomb me with that informationtoo soon?
You know, because it could be a situationwhere I get to know you; I like you; and then
(24:52):
on the fifth date you realise “Oh, thisguy is into philosophy.”
L (24:55):
Yeah.
OF (24:56):
Or “This guy's into skateboarding.”
It could be something a little less upfront,right?
L (24:59):
It happened that I shock people and they judge very very hard.
Honestly, I don't say it, I'm just answeringquestions.
When they ask me “So what do you do fora living?”
or "What else do you do?”
to not say so would be lying.
OF (25:14):
Yeah, because this is your full-time gig really, now.
L (25:17):
Kind of, yes.
OF (25:18):
This is it.
It would be weird to not mention it.
L (25:20):
Yes.
OF (25:21):
Yes.
So how do you define yourself now?
L (25:24):
I'm actually in a stage where I'm not doing it for sexual reasons.
So I can see a potential partner that doesn'tlike rope.
Now I'm more about quality.
If I think about my status of kink, I candefine myself as a 'Care Dom’
OF (25:45):
‘Care Dom’?
L (25:46):
Yes, it’s a thing.
So basically ‘dom’ means the dominantpart.
But basically, I do that to serve the personI submit.
So technically I take control, but to givethem enjoyment.
I like to give pleasure to people.
OF (26:05):
Yeah.
This is a nice way to end the conversation,I think.
Because when people think about certain kinksand certain fetishes - and rope is one of
them, but it could be leather, it could berubber - like, they always have this scary
image.
You know, it's intimidating.
I mean, you look at the ropes, and it is intimidating.
But then talking to you, you do get the sensuality,you do get the ideas that we're talking about.
(26:27):
It's about empathy, it’s about empowerment,it's about that connection between you and
the other person, right?
L (26:32):
It's true.
Honestly I have to say, most of the best peopleI meet are in the kink community.
They really care about respect and trust,and they don't have this social limit.
So it's easier to find good people in thekink community than outside.
(26:52):
Of course, there are still predatory peoplethat do consent-breaking behaviour.
But the majority are very nice people.
I would more trust somebody dressed in latexthan somebody dressed with a tie.
OF (27:08):
Well said.
And I'm glad you also mentioned the dangerstoo.
I think everyone needs to be open-eyed aboutthat.
L (27:14):
Yes.
OF (27:15):
It’s not a world of rainbows and marshmallows.
L (27:16):
No, the first thing - the very first thing - is consent.
There is a very nice video, about how consentis like a cup of tea.
OF (27:24):
I've seen it.
L (27:25):
Yeah.
OF (27:26):
If I can post that somehow, I will, as part of this episode.
Thanks so much, Laodai.
L (27:30):
Thank you, thank you.
OF (27:32):
We're going to move on to Part 2.
L (27:34):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: OK, now we move on to the 10 questions.
Are you nervous about these?
No.
OF (27:45):
OK.
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily: What is your favourite China-related fact? (27:46):
undefined
L (27:51):
I really like watching people dancing in the park.
OF (27:56):
Oh right.
L (27:57):
That’s cool.
It's very genuine.
Maybe you have a hard life, hard work.
And then you just go dancing with other people,and enjoy.
And then you go home.
It’s a very nice activity.
For years I believed there was some sort ofcompetition, like the Olympics.
OF (28:14):
Oh!
L (28:15):
Yeah.
They made a team and they compete in a challengeat the end of the year.
OF (28:20):
There might be, I don't even know.
L (28:23):
I don't know.
I don't think so, I think it's only exercising.
OF (28:26):
Nice.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (28:28):
undefined
Chinese?
L (28:33):
It’s one of the first things I learned.
I like 不客气 [bùkèqì].
OF (28:38):
Oh, 不客气 [bùkèqì].
L (28:40):
It’s ‘you're welcome’.
Because in Italian, you say ‘boccuccia’when you do, like, the kiss shape of the mouth.
So 不客气 [bùkèqì] sticks in my mind.
OF (28:51):
So it sounds like that.
L (28:52):
Yes, ‘boccuccia’ OF
Yes.
OF (28:57):
Classic.
Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (28:58):
undefined
China?
L (29:04):
I've travelled a little.
I like places without too many people.
So I was impressed by 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
OF (29:10):
张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
L (29:12):
张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè], because it's very unique.
It seems fake, like a movie set.
OF (29:16):
Well, it's famously…
L (29:17):
Avatar.
OF (29:18):
Yeah.
L (29:19):
They shot Avatar there for a reason.
So that they could save money, rather thanbuild a planet.
OF (29:24):
OK, next question.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
L (29:29):
I think I will miss, if you have an idea, you can do it.
And then it can be regulated afterwards.
OF (29:36):
Yes.
L (29:37):
This, I really like.
OF (29:38):
That's exactly how it works, right?
Because people think it's just the rules.
But you can do quite a lot until you hit yourhead on the rules, right?
L (29:46):
Yes, yes.
I come from Italy, that is one of the worstcountries in this regard.
OF (29:51):
There’s a lot of red tape in Italy.
L (29:53):
Yes.
And the worst thing…
OF (29:55):
The thing that you would miss the least, yes.
L (29:57):
I don't want to be offensive, but I really hate when people chew very loud.
OF (30:03):
Yes.
Oh dear.
L (30:06):
I usually don't judge anything, with people's behaviour.
This, I know is a small thing.
But it really annoys me.
It’s automatic annoyance.
OF (30:15):
I find it very hard.
They can be on the other side of the restaurant.
L (30:19):
Yes, yes.
I really hate it.
OF (30:21):
I think it's just impatient white men.
L (30:24):
Maybe.
OF (30:25):
Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
L (30:29):
No, I would say no.
Oh actually it did.
Actually I remember this right now.
People have started walking with robot dogs.
I’ve seen already four people doing it.
OF (30:40):
Oh.
L (30:41):
It’s a robot dog.
And they’re walking the robot dog.
So there's no sense in anything.
OF (30:46):
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat, or drink, or just hang out?
L (30:53):
Mokkos.
You know Mokkos?
OF (30:55):
No.
L (30:56):
Mokkos
There are two, one is on the road and oneis in a compound.
I like the one in the compound.
It’s a kind of Japanese concept bar.
You can only order bottles, and then theysave your bottle, and if you go five years
later your bottle is still there with yourname.
And if you finish that bottle, they ask youif you want a new bottle or if you want to
(31:20):
refill that bottle.
And then you can keep the exactly same bottlefor years.
And every time you refill, they gave you alittle badge.
So there are these very ancient bottles fullof badges, and you can see that people get
drunk a lot.
OF (31:33):
Yes.
L (31:34):
I like this.
And it's very quiet.
OF (31:36):
Yes, you have these places in Japan a lot.
L (31:39):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (31:40):
And it's usually whiskey bars.
I've never heard of that here yet.
L (31:43):
Yes.
OF (31:44):
Mokkos.
OK, I'll check it out.
But it sounds like you can't just go in therecasually, you have to be like…
L (31:48):
No, you can, you can, you can.
OF (31:50):
OK.
Thank you.
You see, you can live in a place for eightyears and still be learning new things like
this.
I presume it's been around for a while.
L (31:58):
Me too.
OF (31:59):
Yeah.
Next question, what is the best or worst purchaseyou made in China?
L (32:03):
The best purchase is this jar that purifies tap water.
OF (32:09):
Ah.
L (32:10):
That changed my life, because I was upset so many times when you finish your bottle
of water and you're still thirsty, and youhave to go out to buy water.
OF (32:18):
You're saying it's a jar, so hang on…
L (32:20):
It’s a jar with a filter.
You just fill it with water, and it purifiesit.
The filter is inside.
OF (32:25):
Yes.
Got it.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
L (32:28):
I’m sending it to you.
OF (32:31):
OK what's going on here?
Can you describe this?
L (32:34):
I don't know if there is a meaning, but I find it very fun.
So there's Jesus, he tried to jump in thepool.
And he cannot because…
Jesus walks on water.
And then there's this other guy from anotherfamous painting who looks surprised, I guess.
OF (32:54):
I love this.
I've never seen it.
I guess only an Italian would send this.
L (32:58):
Maybe.
It probably came from another Italian.
OF (33:01):
Thank you.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
L (33:06):
I'm quite upset with KTV in China because they don't have Italian songs.
OF (33:11):
Not many, right?
I've heard ‘Volare.’
L (33:13):
Ah yes.
That makes me more upset.
OF (33:15):
Me too.
I went out with some Italians one time, andwe literally had to have that three times
because…
L (33:21):
No, no.
I would never sing that, because it's stereotypical.
So I sing very few songs.
One is ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’, I go for it.
OF (33:29):
Oh god.
L (33:30):
Then I sing ‘Give a Little Bit’.
OF (33:32):
‘Give a Little Bit’, that one.
L (33:34):
Yes, exactly.
I basically sing two songs.
OF (33:36):
There’s not even a third?
L (33:38):
Maybe ‘Common People’ by Pulp.
OF (33:41):
Oh, now that speaks to me.
Are we the same age, how old are you?
L (33:45):
42.
OF (33:46):
I'm 44, yeah.
L (33:47):
Next week is my birthday.
OF (33:49):
Ah, tanti auguri.
L (33:50):
Grazie OF
Yeah but you know, I’m not English.
So I focus on reading too much.
I don't focus on enjoying it.
OF (34:00):
Oh.
L (34:01):
In Italian, I can express more craziness.
OF (34:04):
Well this is a problem with 'Common People’ because there are a lot of words.
L (34:07):
Yeah.
But that I know.
I memorised that.
OF (34:10):
And finally, what or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
L (34:14):
I have a couple of friends that inspire me, and motivated me to get better.
But some people give me inspiration not tobe like them.
Inverse inspiration.
People who are happy with very material things.
So when I see these people, I'm glad I tookthe path that I did.
OF (34:33):
Even though it's more difficult.
L (34:34):
Yes, yes.
I quit my job, I’m struggling, but I'm morehappy.
OF (34:41):
I look forward to seeing how things progress in the future for you.
Thank you so much for sharing your story.
L (34:47):
Thank you for listening.
OF (34:48):
Well, it was enlightening.
And I hope that other people listening wouldhave also experienced the same thing.
Before you leave, out of everyone you knowin China, who would you recommend that I interview
in the next season of Mosaic of China?
L (35:02):
So there's my friend Shreni.
She's American, from India.
And she's very spiritual, and she starteda career helping people through breathwork.
OF (35:17):
Breathwork.
Breathing properly.
L (35:19):
Yeah, yeah.
It’s like, your emotions and your stateare very influenced by your breathing.
OF (35:25):
I understand that completely.
I feel like I have a very shallow breathingpattern.
So I'm looking forward to meeting Shreni.
L (35:33):
Yes.
She is the best.
OF (35:36):
Well thank you so much Laodai.
L (35:38):
Thank you.
谢谢 [Xièxiè].
OF (35:40):
谢谢 [Xièxiè].
[Outro]OF: Well, I did it, I managed to finish off
the massive editing job that was this episode.
There’s an extra 20 minutes of Laodai’sstory available on the PREMIUM version of
the show, head to the website to subscribe.
Even finding and editing clips for you tohear was a monumental effort this week, but
here’s what I managed to include: [Clip 1] (36:00):
undefined
L (36:02):
Then I said “Oh this thing could have lots of potential.”
And then we broke up, for completely differentreasons.
[Clip 2]OF: It’s like “What, can no-one hear this?
How can this be happening?”
[Clip 3]L: If you stick with one master, he won’t
allow you to learn a different style.
OF (36:21):
Yes.
[Clip 4]L: Going to that festival helped me to quit
the job.
Aha.
[Clip 5]L: The Western view of it versus the Japanese
reality.
Trying to imbue more meaning onto something than actually there is, right?
L (36:31):
Yes.
[Clip 6]L: I found myself being like ‘under the
power of the rope’.
Losing control quite easily, and maybe doingthings that can break a relationship.
[Clip 7]L: It’s called 本結び [hon musubi]: ‘single
column tie.’
OF (36:46):
A ‘single column tie.’
L (36:47):
Yes, because the arm or the leg is a ‘column’.
[Clip 8]L: Genuine expressions.
Can be pain, or can be struggle, or happiness.
[Clip 9]L: A complete failure.
They would say “What, are you crazy?
Why did you ask me this?”
[Clip 10]L: So like when you tie your shoes, you never
think “Oh, I need to put this under this,and then make a loop, and then pull.”
[Clip 11]OF: You don't want to shock someone, right?
(37:08):
This is the worst thing you can do, actually surprise somebody with something like that.
[Clip 12]L: It can be very fluid.
Actually it’s more women tying men in China.
[End of Audio Clips]
Thanks once again to Laodai for sharing hisstory with us.
I’ve included a selection of photos on thewebsite and on social media, so do a search
(37:28):
for mosaicofchina or oscology on all the usualplatforms - both in China and internationally
- and you should find them there.
For obvious reasons, we focused our conversationvery much on the performance art side of his
life.
But when it comes to the lifestyle and thephilosophy behind this esoteric art form - the
(37:49):
‘Davide’ behind the ‘Laodai’ - there’ssomething all of us can take away in terms
of making us think about how we relate to- and communicate with - our most intimate
partners.
And making us think is what art’s all aboutafter all, which is why I try to include artists
of all description in the Mosaic of China.
If you want to hear similar episodes thatcover big ideas in the guise of performance
(38:11):
art in China, then take a listen in particularto ‘Cocosanti’, the drag artist from Season
02 Episode 05; or Björn Dahlman, the professionalclown from Season 02 Episode 17; or Zhang
Yuan, the performance art curator from Season02 Episode 07.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
(38:33):
These days I always include at least one catch-upconversation from a previous episode after
the closing music, and today is no exception,you will hear from the podcaster Yang Yi from
Season 01 Episode 21.
But you will notice that it’s quite short.
That’s because when Yang Yi and I caughtup, we spoke a lot about his experience appearing
as a guest on This American Life earlier inthe year.
(38:57):
I didn’t want this story to compete withLaodai’s story, so I’ve taken that part
out and made it into its own PREMIUM-onlyminisode.
I’ll be releasing that on Friday, so there’syet another reason that you really should
be subscribed by now.
And we’ll be back with another full episodefrom Season 03 next week.
(39:19):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hey Yang Yi.
YY (39:29):
Hey Oscar.
OF (39:31):
It's always a pleasure to see you.
But out of every one from Season 01, whichis now two seasons ago…
YY (39:37):
Yes.
OF (39:38):
…I think I have seen you probably the most.
YY (39:40):
Oh, really?
OF (39:42):
And there is an obvious reason for that, because I have been using your studio…
YY (39:47):
Oh yeah.
OF (39:48):
…To record Season 03.
YY (39:49):
Yes, yes.
OF (39:50):
And so I want to say officially, thank you so much for your help in getting me set
up for Season 03.
I lost access to my previous studio, and Iwas asking around, and then you just said
one day “Hey, just use my studio”.
And I was like “Perfect.
I love you.”
YY (40:04):
You’re welcome.
OF (40:05):
Thank you man, I appreciate that very much.
You, you have had many more changes sinceSeason 01.
YY (40:11):
Yes.
OF (40:12):
We did a catch-up in Season 02, and at that point you had already quit your broadcasting
job, and you had gone full-time into yourpodcasting career.
YY (40:19):
Yes.
OF (40:20):
You had 11 podcasts.
So what is the situation with your companytoday?
YY (40:25):
For original podcasts we now have twenty.
OF (40:28):
Twenty.
YY (40:29):
Yes.
And with another twenty branded podcasts.
We help companies to produce their own shows.
OF (40:36):
Right.
YY (40:37):
Yeah.
OF (40:38):
So do you offer the editing support, the production support…
YY (40:40):
Consulting support.
Because they have no audio strategy.
Maybe they were very familiar with Tiktokor social media, but they don't know audio.
So the first thing is consulting.
Audio is a very fresh thing.
You know, in many people's minds, when theytalk about audio, the first thing come to
their minds is music.
(41:01):
And then it's audiobooks.
And then it’s education.
So what is podcasting?
For them, maybe this think “Oh, it's a personalradio station.
Or an audio blog.”
They don't have the sense of what it is.
I need to tell them that a podcast is a show.
And the show is not personal, it’s a show,just like you watch on television.
(41:24):
It means well-educated tier, younger generation,the people who live in big cities, active
in business, in consuming, something likethat.
So I need to, you know, draw a picture.
And now it is not the mass-communication era.
People exist in very small groups.
OF (41:44):
Yeah.
YY (41:45):
So you need to find your target audience…
OF (41:48):
Yes.
YY (41:49):
…And match them very efficiently.
OF (41:50):
Well, that's always been my problem with Mosaic of China, because I can't focus in
on one particular thing, that’s my problem.
YY (41:57):
Ah.
OF (41:58):
But it is a diverse place.
And that makes me ask you then, so where doyou see the trends in podcasting right now?
YY (42:05):
OK, for original shows and branded podcasts, it’s very different.
So for the branded podcasts, I would tellmy clients the key word is ‘differentiate.’
You need to do something separate from othershows, and show the things you're really good
at.
Podcast listeners, they will think “Oh,you are an expert in this field.”
They will trust you.
(42:25):
And they will become your listeners, evenif the didn't know this field before.
OF (42:30):
And in terms of your shows then, why would it be different?
You obviously need to differentiate your showstoo, no?
YY (42:35):
Yes, but for original shows, maybe we have 5-10 different topics or genres we could
do.
So we need to choose.
So we need to research the marketing.
OF (42:46):
Yes.
YY (42:47):
We need to, you know, put the shows in that space.
OF (42:50):
Well, I am sure next time we catch up, you will have more and more and more.
Are you going to do an English language podcastat some point?
YY (42:59):
Oh, yes.
Maybe I will invite you to contribute somestories, something like that.
OF (43:06):
Very good.
YY (43:07):
Yes.
OF (43:08):
I am sure, when you do it, it will be great.
I'm sure it'll be better than mine as well,so…
I wish you luck.
Thank you so much for being part of this project.
You were the co-organiser of the first PodFest,which was a conference where I met you and
many other podcasting people in Shanghai.
YY (43:26):
Yeah.
OF (43:27):
And you've really been with me in my journey since that day.
And I hope that we will continue to stay intouch.
YY (43:33):
Yes, of course.
Thank you.
[Trailer]L: The trick…
I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick isjust: stay legal.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We as people are all connected.
Emotionally, societally, globally, whicheverway you look at it.
(00:25):
It’s one of the key aspects to Mosaic ofChina, I want this project to be a weekly
reminder of this kind of grand interconnectivityof people and things.
So since we’re talking about being emotionallytied, why not have an episode about being
emotionally tied?
The themes of today’s show are community,self-expression, and consent.
(00:46):
As a society we’ve been talking more aboutthe concept of consent in recent years.
So I wanted to talk to a practitioner forwhom consent is so important that getting
it wrong might even lead to serious injury.
There are certain letters of the alphabetthat we skirt around, such as B, and then
there’s D, and later you might find an S,and then how about M as well?
(01:11):
So if you’re wondering at any point duringtoday’s show “Wait, what are we talking
about here?”
or “Why didn’t you ask this question?”
I probably did!
It’s just in the full-length PREMIUM versionof the episode, rather than this regular version.
So if you want the full story, let me remindyou right from the start to head to the Mosaic
of China website for all the details on howto subscribe.
(01:35):
With that having been said, I’m going togive you a few seconds to decide whether you
would prefer to skip this episode.
OK, do I have your consent to continue?
Good, then let’s proceed.
And you can say ‘No’ and stop at any time.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Davide.
L (01:53):
Thank you for inviting me.
OF (01:55):
My pleasure.
For the purpose of this conversation, I'mgoing to call you by the name which you're
known for, which is Laodai.
L (02:02):
Exactly.
OF (02:04):
And can you explain what 老戴 [Lǎodài] means?
L (02:07):
I have no idea, honestly.
I googled it, it means like ‘wearing’.
OF (02:12):
Like to put on glasses, to put on a scarf, it’s to wear…
L (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So basically, people in the community startedcalling me this, probably because of my name.
OF (02:23):
Ah, because it sounds like your real name.
L (02:25):
Right.
‘Dai-vide,’ something like that.
And then I’ve stuck with it.
OF (02:28):
Yeah.
L (02:29):
It’s easy.
OF (02:30):
It's common to be known as ‘老 [Lǎo]’-something-something, right?
L (02:32):
Exactly.
OF (02:33):
So it shows that you are in some way venerated.
I'm glad that somebody gave you that name,and you didn't give it to yourself.
L (02:39):
Oh yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t.
And the character is very complicated, soI really cannot write it.
OF (02:45):
Well if there's one 汉字 [hànzì] you should learn, I guess it should be that one.
Come on.
L (02:50):
Probably.
OF (02:51):
Well, we are not yet giving away any clues as to what you do.
But maybe the next question I ask will bea clue.
Tell me, what object did you bring that insome way represents your life here in China?
L (03:05):
I think it will be more than a hint.
OF (03:08):
OK.
L (03:09):
So I brought a seven-metre hemp rope.
I want to be specific about the material,because it will be important.
OF (03:17):
OK.
I should ask, why should you be specific aboutthe material?
L (03:22):
Because basically - I think I’ll go straight to the point - I use it to tie up people.
Because I'm rope artist.
We can say ‘bondage artist’.
OF (03:36):
Mm-hmm.
So I'm guessing it's safer to say ‘ropeartist’ than ‘bondage artist.’
L (03:41):
It’s more accepted, let’s say this.
OF (03:44):
Got it.
Well I know that, because the reason I knowyou is because I went to the 40th birthday
party of a mutual friend of ours - ciao, Alberto- and you were doing a show there, which you
could call a ‘bondage show,’ a ‘ropeshow’.
Why don't you talk through what I saw at thatparty.
L (04:05):
That's what I do, basically.
It’s 縛り [Shibari] Art, 縛り [Shibari]is the name from Japanese.
OF (04:11):
縛り [Shibari].
L (04:12):
It’s very hard to explain if you haven’t seen it.
It’s a mix between art and emotional connectionand mutual trust, where there are two people
playing around with ropes.
Basically it’s me tying my model in an emotionalway, and you can create a kind of performance.
OF (04:34):
Right.
Yes, that was what I experienced as an audiencemember.
And not expecting it, I was quite shocked.
Where to start?
I mean, you did say that it needed to be hemp.
Is that because that's comfortable on skin,is it?
L (04:49):
Actually, because it's uncomfortable on skin.
OF (04:52):
Oh.
L (04:53):
Compared to cotton or other materials.
But the main reason is, cotton is more elastic,it can stretch more.
Hemp stays steel, and you can create thattension that really restricts people.
The thing was born to be uncomfortable, it’sabout the enjoyment to be restricted - to
(05:15):
be submitted, we can say - and the enjoymentto submit and control somebody else.
Consensually.
So if it’s comfortable, it doesn't reallymake too much sense for me.
OF (05:28):
Yeah, that's not the point.
L (05:31):
Yes.
OF (05:32):
You said that it was a Japanese art form.
What was the name again?
L (05:36):
縛り [Shibari].
OF (05:37):
What is that, then?
Let's start at the basics.
What is 縛り [Shibari]?
L (05:41):
It's a very complicated question, because it’s a lots of things together.
OF (05:45):
Yeah.
L (05:46):
I can tell you what is my view of 縛り [Shibari].
So it's basically an erotic art form bornin Japan, 縛り [Shibari] means ‘to tie'
basically, in Japanese.
But everybody who practices this art developshis own style and his own way to do it.
So it's a very personal thing, and everybodyhas his own personal definition.
(06:11):
If you want to hear mine…OF: Yeah.
I focus more on the emotional side of the thing.
Because I think you can only achieve the realbeauty of the performance if you share deep
emotion, and if you find a deep connectionwith the model.
I started for the artistic side of it, becauseI'm an artist also.
(06:33):
And I thought at the very beginning that itwas only about the pattern of the ropes.
OF (06:37):
Right.
L (06:38):
I discovered, through the process and the years, that beauty - the beauty I was looking
for - is achievable through the emotionalconnection.
OF (06:47):
OK, so when you're talking about the rope side, we're talking about the beauty of knots?
Is that what you mean?
L (06:55):
That's a component.
No, it’s the beauty of the whole final result.
The knots, the pattern, the posture, the model’sexpression.
And also the feelings that come out from theperformance.
It’s more about a dance, and they need todance with passion.
(07:18):
And then you say “Oh, they're very good.
I'm crying.”
Or whatever.
OF (07:22):
Right.
And is it supposed to be, in that case, anartwork which is set on a stage and for others
to see?
Or is it something which was designed to beprivate?
L (07:32):
I’m not sure, I believe it started as a private activity.
And when you start to see the beauty of it,they probably started to shoot it.
There are a lot of pictures.
And then they started to make performances.
I mean, there are a lot of dynamics, it’snot only about beauty, it's also about excitement
(07:55):
and tension.
So some people look for those elements, morethan the beauty of the pattern.
OF (08:01):
You’ve been doing this for how long now?
L (08:04):
I think, six years now.
OF (08:06):
So what was your story about how you found out about this?
L (08:09):
Yes, the very very first impact was an art exhibition of 荒木 [Araki].
OF (08:16):
荒木 [Araki], that's an artist?
L (08:18):
Yes, he’s a photographer of very erotic pictures, back in the 60s I guess.
OF (08:23):
With ropes, or..?
L (08:24):
With ropes, yes.
I was really kind of obsessed about this.
Like super super into it.
And I tried to find out more about this art.
Now you can find a lot, but before it wasvery very hard.
They were very random.
Some were not the real thing, it’s justmore like a decorating pattern.
(08:46):
So it was quite hard.
But I started tying my leg, the basic knot.
OF (08:50):
Oh you tied your own leg?
L (08:52):
Yes.
That's how everybody starts.
OF (08:54):
Aha.
L (08:55):
Because it’s practice, you need to get the muscle memory.
Then I remember, I found in the street thiskind of mannequin.
And I started to tie my first body patternon the mannequin.
But that wasn't very effective, because it'svery hard plastic.
And it didn't have any arms or legs, it wasjust the chest.
OF (09:16):
Oh wow, you are a serial killer.
L (09:18):
No, no, it was a plastic mannequin.
It’s useless basically to use a mannequin,because the feeling is completely different,
and the tension you can put on a human bodyis very different.
The rope gets tighter in a different way.
So I was stuck.
To improve more, I had to find a real person.
OF (09:38):
Right.
L (09:39):
And I found this girl who is actually still my Japanese business partner.
And she was my first model, meeting her startedthe whole process.
And I was very very lucky, it was like winningthe lottery.
OF (09:55):
So she actually could teach you, as a teacher almost.
L (09:58):
No, no, she doesn’t know a single knot.
She didn't at the time, now she knows a little.
Because when you do 縛り [Shibari] thereare two roles, a ‘rigger’ who ties, and
a ‘model.’
OF (10:09):
A ‘rigger’, OK.
L (10:10):
Yeah.
And the model is just being the model, sodoesn't really care about the techniques.
OF (10:15):
Yes.
L (10:16):
But she taught me a lot in terms of dynamics, and connection, and how the model feels.
At that stage in my mind was only an art practice,nothing more.
And she's actually the one that opened tome the concept of the emotional tie, rather
than the artistic tie.
OF (10:35):
Got it.
And so she could tell you "Yeah, this feelsgood”, “No, this is too tight”…
L (10:41):
Yeah.
More than physical sensations, she was tellingme things like “I feel this is a little
empty, I feel you're focusing more on theknot than me.”
More, the connection side.
And then I learned a lot because I realised“OK, I'm not tying for my pleasure, or for
making something like a sculpture.
I’m tying for communal pleasure.
(11:03):
So I don't need to focus on the rope, I needto focus on her.”
It's about how you tie, and how you touch,and how you give your feelings to the model.
You can see a lot of shows, it's beautifulchoreography but if there's no connection,
it’s not beautiful emotions coming out.
OF (11:22):
Yes, you said choreography.
It makes me think almost like figure skatingor like ballroom dancing, right?
Where you see two people, and they're doingan art form.
But there is a sensuality, and there is thiscommunication between the two people that
you could describe as being emotional.
So I can sort of see it through that prism.
L (11:41):
Yes.
It is.
The dynamics are very similar.
I believe doing rope can boost your sexuallife, but I also believe going dancing, tango,
salsa night…
OF (11:52):
Yes.
L (11:53):
I believe it’s the same dynamic.
OF (11:54):
Yes.
You said before how this was a process whereyou were learning, and your model must have
been very patient as you were going throughthis learning process.
Were there any specific mistakes that youmade at the beginning?
L (12:06):
Mistakes, I think, are part of the learning process.
As long as you’re learning basic stuff,you just do the wrong knot and then basically
you redo it.
In terms of when you're getting more confident- and you try more difficult and dangerous
things like suspension - then mistakes usuallycause injuries for the model.
(12:32):
So it's better not to try things that youhaven’t practiced a lot.
But mistakes still happen.
I’m very glad I’ve never been a rushedlearner.
In my career, I experienced just one injury.
The most common injury in rope is nerve damageof the arms.
(12:54):
So if you press a nerve a lot, you damageit, and you cannot use the nerve for a while.
OF (12:59):
Like, a week or two, or..?
L (13:01):
Yes.
Like a dead hand for some days.
OF (13:05):
And in that situation, what would have happened?
That would have been you doing the wrong knot?
Or a communication issue between you and themodel?
L (13:12):
I think the fault was between both of us.
Because my fault was not being that focused,to notice something was wrong.
And on the model’s side, she didn't letme know some problem was going on.
OF (13:26):
I see.
So she was in some discomfort, but didn'tknow that it was a problem.
L (13:30):
Yes.
That's why a model is a role, it’s not justa tool.
So models have to learn about their body,and improve in that role of a model.
So…
OF (13:43):
Yes.
They’re learning, just like you're learning.
L (13:45):
Yes, yes.
I mean, there is no real school of modelling,it’s more about practice.
OF (13:49):
Yeah.
L (13:50):
But it is.
I can tell if I’m tying somebody that hasbeen tied fifty times, compared to somebody
tied five times.
I can tell.
OF (13:58):
Aha.
L (13:59):
There is the risk awareness.
Like everything has, like sports.
OF (14:03):
Yes.
Which then comes down to consent.
L (14:05):
Yes.
OF (14:06):
Because I'm guessing that at each point there is some kind of communication?
Or do you just get all the consent at thebeginning?
How does that work?
L (14:13):
Consent is the main thing.
Because it's not only putting rope againstthe body, it’s about touching the body.
And it’s about doing things like pullinghair, or grabbing the neck.
You don't know people’s past, so you don'tknow if what you’re doing can trigger some
traumas or something.
OF (14:32):
Aha.
L (14:33):
So when you tie somebody, you have to talk beforehand.
Actually when you do every S/M practice, youhave to talk and get consent.
And when you ask somebody for consent, neverask “Is there something you don't like?”
Because they cannot think of every possibleoption you can go through.
(14:53):
So when you ask for consent, just state everythingyou would like to do, and get a yes or no.
OF (14:59):
Can I tie this arm?
Can I… what?
L (15:02):
Can I whisper in your ear?
Can I give you a soft kiss on the neck?
Can I grab?
Can I squeeze?
I go through all these things.
I mean I'm not that crazy, so I have the 10-15things I like doing, so I cover all of those
beforehand.
OF (15:17):
Yeah.
L (15:18):
Of course, you can talk to me if something is going wrong, or if there is some problem.
And I also maybe slide the hand and see thereaction.
If you see it’s uncomfortable, just stop.
If it's like comfort and excitement, you cango to the next step.
OF (15:36):
Yes.
I mean, this is the thing about consent.
People who…
Let’s say “men” here, right?
Men who think of this idea as "Oh, it's notsexy, when you're stopping what you're doing,
and you're asking things, and making sure…”
Like, I think it is sexy!
L (15:50):
It is.
What I do, I like domination and submissionplay.
That also has to be very consensual.
I mix the consensual questions with play questions.
Like “I'm going to do this.
I know you like it, don’t you?”
Something like this.
And you are free to say “No.”
If they say “Please please, do it,” orif they say “No, sir”…
OF (16:12):
Yes I get it.
It's part of the play.
L (16:15):
It’s like camouflaging the consent.
The thing is, in my position - that I do thisalso, let's say professionally - it happens
a lot that a complete stranger will ask meto get tied in public or privately.
So my risk awareness is very high.
OF (16:31):
Yeah so talk me through then, how would you do your art in that situation?
Versus someone who, let's say, you've workedwith for many years?
L (16:38):
When I do sessions…
Some people pay me to get tied.
OF (16:41):
Yeah.
L (16:42):
Those are called ‘sessions.’
I'm really clear at the beginning, I coverall those discussions.
And I'm very safe.
I don't do too much, even if I maybe wantto.
OF (16:53):
Yeah.
L (16:54):
Also I do a little test, that they don't realise is a test.
Because it's in my beginning routine, whenI tie somebody.
I usually sit behind them, and I push my fistagainst their chest, towards me.
If they abandon themselves completely, I canunderstand they're more submissive.
(17:14):
If they push against me, I can understandthey're not very comfortable or they don't
trust me.
OF (17:20):
Ah.
L (17:21):
So I change the flow of the rope, based on these little things.
OF (17:25):
Yes.
L (17:26):
And also I squeeze the rope very hard.
That allows me to understand the level ofpain they can take, and then I understand
what I can do and what I cannot do.
OF (17:35):
Yes, this is what comes from experience, right?
L (17:37):
Yeah.
OF (17:38):
If you are a new model, it might be good to try and find a more experienced rigger.
Or is it actually nicer for inexperiencedriggers and models to learn together?
L (17:49):
It depends what you want to achieve.
If you're a couple and you want to achieveconnection, me tying her doesn't really make
sense.
It’s better that he learns.
OF (17:59):
Right.
Is that what you also do?
You help couples to do this together?
L (18:02):
Yes, but we need to also keep it legal.
OF (18:05):
What do you mean by that?
L (18:07):
Because there is this law in China, more than two people naked in one room is illegal.
OF (18:14):
Oh, even in the privacy of your own home.
L (18:17):
Yes, yes.
Threesomes are illegal.
OF (18:20):
Mmm-hmm.
Noted!
L (18:22):
Yes, yes.
OF (18:23):
Well, you were saying about your main model.
She was well connected with the scene in Japan.
Why don't we talk then about China?
We're here in China.
You've been doing this now personally andprofessionally for a few years.
So how did that happen for you here in China?
L (18:39):
Every night in Japan, there's a performance or there is a saloon.
There's a lot of legal activities, withoutbreaking any law.
And then I see the same activities are happeningin the world.
And then I question myself “Why is nothinghappening in China?”
And I know the answer actually, because it'smore restrictive.
But it’s about ‘setting the line’.
(19:02):
And then when you set the line, you can doeverything below that line.
OF (19:06):
I see.
L (19:07):
The line in China is lower than Japan, or lower than Europe.
But it’s just about that.
So I came back, and I started to inform myselfabout communities in China.
I found a guy, and became friends with him.
So I said “Let's try to do a party.”
So basically the next month after that, wemade the first public rope event in China.
(19:33):
Me and this guy, 2017, at Roxie.
And everybody was telling me “Why are youdoing this?
Nobody will come.”
But we did it, and forty people came.
And it was quite good, some easy suspension.
And then I started to do it every month.
More and more people started to come.
Every part of the community, like crossdressers,fetish, latex, canine.
OF (19:56):
Oh.
L (19:58):
Everything.
OF (19:59):
Yes.
L (20:00):
The trick…
I mean it sounds obvious, but the trick isjust: stay legal.
We are teaching rope art.
We set the line, and we don't go over thatline.
So no nudity, no real pain, no scars.
OF (20:12):
Yeah.
L (20:13):
And we built, basically, the public community from that.
I'm still learning - you never stop learning- so I'm still going to Japan to meet masters.
But it's very expensive.
So then I got this other idea after a while.
Rather than go there and pay for lessons,what if I invite masters to China?
OF (20:34):
Yes.
That's a win/win.
L (20:36):
Yes.
So I did that, thanks to my model who nowbecame my business partner at this stage.
OF (20:42):
Right.
L (20:43):
Japanese trust Japanese.
So we were able to invite very big names,and make the first ever workshop from Japanese
people in China.
Actually everybody who was interested in ropetraveled from their city to my house.
OF (20:58):
From all over China?
L (20:59):
Kind of.
From 天津 [Tiānjīn], 长沙 [Chángshā],深圳 [Shēnzhèn]…
Because it was a very unique opportunity.
OF (21:06):
Yes.
L (21:07):
Otherwise you have to go to Japan and pay much more.
So they came to my workshop.
And they started to spread the knowledge intheir own cities.
So more communities grew, and they startedto - I will say ‘be inspired.’
I don't want to say ‘copy.’
- they started to be inspired by my activities,and they started to make public rope parties.
(21:32):
They started inviting people from Japan, fromEurope, to teach their workshops.
And it was quite surprising, and they getsome success before COVID.
COVID stopped everything, mostly.
Now - compared to just five years ago - it’sa completely different level of acceptance.
If you look for it, every week in Shanghai,there is a workshop.
OF (21:55):
Really?
L (21:56):
There are different kinds, I'm not the only one.
Different teachers who are teaching theirway, some are more spiritual, some more traditional.
Yoga studios started to have their own ropeart schedule.
OF (22:08):
You're kidding.
L (22:09):
No no, it’s true, it’s true.
OF (22:10):
Oh god.
L (22:11):
Yoga studios are expanding to include some workshops.
OF (22:14):
OK.
L (22:15):
I mean, if you think about silk yoga, aerial yoga…
OF (22:19):
Oh.
L (22:20):
Technically it’s not that different.
OF (22:22):
It's interesting.
Yeah.
L (22:24):
Technically.
OF (22:25):
How, then, is your status in China now?
Like, are you well known here?
L (22:28):
Yeah, it’s also surprising.
There are people - who don't even know myface - who come to my event.
And somebody calls me ‘Laodai,’ and thensuddenly everybody realises that’s me.
And they start to come, asking for picturesor sharing WeChat.
And actually now I'm going on tour.
OF (22:47):
Really?
L (22:48):
Yes, I go to 深圳 [Shēnzhèn], 长沙 [Chángshā], and 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (22:51):
To do these workshops, right?
L (22:53):
Workshops, yes.
And performances.
OF (22:55):
Let me end this part of the conversation by going more into your personal story again.
How has this affected you in terms of yourown sexuality?
L (23:04):
In my experience.
I really tie a lot of different people, menand women.
And I learn my reaction to different people.
And I learn there is a ‘rope love’ thatis different to romantic love with a partner.
How I explain this usually is, you have tothink about the different loves you experience.
(23:26):
In English, you use one word.
The love to your mother is different, butyou still call it ‘love’.
Love towards your friends is another kindof love.
Towards your sexual partner or life partneris another kind of love.
So there is also the rope love.
OF (23:43):
How do you talk about that with your potential romantic partners?
L (23:47):
I'm very honest, because it causes lots of troubles.
OF (23:51):
Yes.
L (23:52):
So basically when I meet somebody, it’s the third answer I give.
Like, what's your name?
Where you from?
And what you do?
I say it then.
OF (24:01):
Yes.
But then don't you scare people off very quickly,if you…
L (24:04):
I do.
I do.
OF (24:06):
Yeah.
L (24:07):
But it easier.
Because if they found out after, it will bemuch harder to explain.
And actually saying it honestly and kindly,it makes it sound more normal than what they
probably imagine.
They don't feel it’s something I want tokeep hidden, or I am ashamed to tell.
OF (24:28):
Yes.
It is interesting.
I mean, I don't know what the right answerwould be.
Because you immediately talk about your fetish- your kink - on the first date.
On the third question, you say.
I might then judge you as like “Ach, thisis someone who doesn't have the right kind
of boundaries, doesn't really know how totalk in a natural way.”
Like, why should you bomb me with that informationtoo soon?
You know, because it could be a situationwhere I get to know you; I like you; and then
(24:52):
on the fifth date you realise “Oh, thisguy is into philosophy.”
L (24:55):
Yeah.
OF (24:56):
Or “This guy's into skateboarding.”
It could be something a little less upfront,right?
L (24:59):
It happened that I shock people and they judge very very hard.
Honestly, I don't say it, I'm just answeringquestions.
When they ask me “So what do you do fora living?”
or "What else do you do?”
to not say so would be lying.
OF (25:14):
Yeah, because this is your full-time gig really, now.
L (25:17):
Kind of, yes.
OF (25:18):
This is it.
It would be weird to not mention it.
L (25:20):
Yes.
OF (25:21):
Yes.
So how do you define yourself now?
L (25:24):
I'm actually in a stage where I'm not doing it for sexual reasons.
So I can see a potential partner that doesn'tlike rope.
Now I'm more about quality.
If I think about my status of kink, I candefine myself as a 'Care Dom’
OF (25:45):
‘Care Dom’?
L (25:46):
Yes, it’s a thing.
So basically ‘dom’ means the dominantpart.
But basically, I do that to serve the personI submit.
So technically I take control, but to givethem enjoyment.
I like to give pleasure to people.
OF (26:05):
Yeah.
This is a nice way to end the conversation,I think.
Because when people think about certain kinksand certain fetishes - and rope is one of
them, but it could be leather, it could berubber - like, they always have this scary
image.
You know, it's intimidating.
I mean, you look at the ropes, and it is intimidating.
But then talking to you, you do get the sensuality,you do get the ideas that we're talking about.
(26:27):
It's about empathy, it’s about empowerment,it's about that connection between you and
the other person, right?
L (26:32):
It's true.
Honestly I have to say, most of the best peopleI meet are in the kink community.
They really care about respect and trust,and they don't have this social limit.
So it's easier to find good people in thekink community than outside.
(26:52):
Of course, there are still predatory peoplethat do consent-breaking behaviour.
But the majority are very nice people.
I would more trust somebody dressed in latexthan somebody dressed with a tie.
OF (27:08):
Well said.
And I'm glad you also mentioned the dangerstoo.
I think everyone needs to be open-eyed aboutthat.
L (27:14):
Yes.
OF (27:15):
It’s not a world of rainbows and marshmallows.
L (27:16):
No, the first thing - the very first thing - is consent.
There is a very nice video, about how consentis like a cup of tea.
OF (27:24):
I've seen it.
L (27:25):
Yeah.
OF (27:26):
If I can post that somehow, I will, as part of this episode.
Thanks so much, Laodai.
L (27:30):
Thank you, thank you.
OF (27:32):
We're going to move on to Part 2.
L (27:34):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: OK, now we move on to the 10 questions.
Are you nervous about these?
No.
OF (27:45):
OK.
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily: What is your favourite China-related fact? (27:46):
undefined
L (27:51):
I really like watching people dancing in the park.
OF (27:56):
Oh right.
L (27:57):
That’s cool.
It's very genuine.
Maybe you have a hard life, hard work.
And then you just go dancing with other people,and enjoy.
And then you go home.
It’s a very nice activity.
For years I believed there was some sort ofcompetition, like the Olympics.
OF (28:14):
Oh!
L (28:15):
Yeah.
They made a team and they compete in a challengeat the end of the year.
OF (28:20):
There might be, I don't even know.
L (28:23):
I don't know.
I don't think so, I think it's only exercising.
OF (28:26):
Nice.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (28:28):
undefined
Chinese?
L (28:33):
It’s one of the first things I learned.
I like 不客气 [bùkèqì].
OF (28:38):
Oh, 不客气 [bùkèqì].
L (28:40):
It’s ‘you're welcome’.
Because in Italian, you say ‘boccuccia’when you do, like, the kiss shape of the mouth.
So 不客气 [bùkèqì] sticks in my mind.
OF (28:51):
So it sounds like that.
L (28:52):
Yes, ‘boccuccia’ OF
Yes.
OF (28:57):
Classic.
Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (28:58):
undefined
China?
L (29:04):
I've travelled a little.
I like places without too many people.
So I was impressed by 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
OF (29:10):
张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
L (29:12):
张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè], because it's very unique.
It seems fake, like a movie set.
OF (29:16):
Well, it's famously…
L (29:17):
Avatar.
OF (29:18):
Yeah.
L (29:19):
They shot Avatar there for a reason.
So that they could save money, rather thanbuild a planet.
OF (29:24):
OK, next question.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
L (29:29):
I think I will miss, if you have an idea, you can do it.
And then it can be regulated afterwards.
OF (29:36):
Yes.
L (29:37):
This, I really like.
OF (29:38):
That's exactly how it works, right?
Because people think it's just the rules.
But you can do quite a lot until you hit yourhead on the rules, right?
L (29:46):
Yes, yes.
I come from Italy, that is one of the worstcountries in this regard.
OF (29:51):
There’s a lot of red tape in Italy.
L (29:53):
Yes.
And the worst thing…
OF (29:55):
The thing that you would miss the least, yes.
L (29:57):
I don't want to be offensive, but I really hate when people chew very loud.
OF (30:03):
Yes.
Oh dear.
L (30:06):
I usually don't judge anything, with people's behaviour.
This, I know is a small thing.
But it really annoys me.
It’s automatic annoyance.
OF (30:15):
I find it very hard.
They can be on the other side of the restaurant.
L (30:19):
Yes, yes.
I really hate it.
OF (30:21):
I think it's just impatient white men.
L (30:24):
Maybe.
OF (30:25):
Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
L (30:29):
No, I would say no.
Oh actually it did.
Actually I remember this right now.
People have started walking with robot dogs.
I’ve seen already four people doing it.
OF (30:40):
Oh.
L (30:41):
It’s a robot dog.
And they’re walking the robot dog.
So there's no sense in anything.
OF (30:46):
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat, or drink, or just hang out?
L (30:53):
Mokkos.
You know Mokkos?
OF (30:55):
No.
L (30:56):
Mokkos
There are two, one is on the road and oneis in a compound.
I like the one in the compound.
It’s a kind of Japanese concept bar.
You can only order bottles, and then theysave your bottle, and if you go five years
later your bottle is still there with yourname.
And if you finish that bottle, they ask youif you want a new bottle or if you want to
(31:20):
refill that bottle.
And then you can keep the exactly same bottlefor years.
And every time you refill, they gave you alittle badge.
So there are these very ancient bottles fullof badges, and you can see that people get
drunk a lot.
OF (31:33):
Yes.
L (31:34):
I like this.
And it's very quiet.
OF (31:36):
Yes, you have these places in Japan a lot.
L (31:39):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (31:40):
And it's usually whiskey bars.
I've never heard of that here yet.
L (31:43):
Yes.
OF (31:44):
Mokkos.
OK, I'll check it out.
But it sounds like you can't just go in therecasually, you have to be like…
L (31:48):
No, you can, you can, you can.
OF (31:50):
OK.
Thank you.
You see, you can live in a place for eightyears and still be learning new things like
this.
I presume it's been around for a while.
L (31:58):
Me too.
OF (31:59):
Yeah.
Next question, what is the best or worst purchaseyou made in China?
L (32:03):
The best purchase is this jar that purifies tap water.
OF (32:09):
Ah.
L (32:10):
That changed my life, because I was upset so many times when you finish your bottle
of water and you're still thirsty, and youhave to go out to buy water.
OF (32:18):
You're saying it's a jar, so hang on…
L (32:20):
It’s a jar with a filter.
You just fill it with water, and it purifiesit.
The filter is inside.
OF (32:25):
Yes.
Got it.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
L (32:28):
I’m sending it to you.
OF (32:31):
OK what's going on here?
Can you describe this?
L (32:34):
I don't know if there is a meaning, but I find it very fun.
So there's Jesus, he tried to jump in thepool.
And he cannot because…
Jesus walks on water.
And then there's this other guy from anotherfamous painting who looks surprised, I guess.
OF (32:54):
I love this.
I've never seen it.
I guess only an Italian would send this.
L (32:58):
Maybe.
It probably came from another Italian.
OF (33:01):
Thank you.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
L (33:06):
I'm quite upset with KTV in China because they don't have Italian songs.
OF (33:11):
Not many, right?
I've heard ‘Volare.’
L (33:13):
Ah yes.
That makes me more upset.
OF (33:15):
Me too.
I went out with some Italians one time, andwe literally had to have that three times
because…
L (33:21):
No, no.
I would never sing that, because it's stereotypical.
So I sing very few songs.
One is ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’, I go for it.
OF (33:29):
Oh god.
L (33:30):
Then I sing ‘Give a Little Bit’.
OF (33:32):
‘Give a Little Bit’, that one.
L (33:34):
Yes, exactly.
I basically sing two songs.
OF (33:36):
There’s not even a third?
L (33:38):
Maybe ‘Common People’ by Pulp.
OF (33:41):
Oh, now that speaks to me.
Are we the same age, how old are you?
L (33:45):
42.
OF (33:46):
I'm 44, yeah.
L (33:47):
Next week is my birthday.
OF (33:49):
Ah, tanti auguri.
L (33:50):
Grazie OF
Yeah but you know, I’m not English.
So I focus on reading too much.
I don't focus on enjoying it.
OF (34:00):
Oh.
L (34:01):
In Italian, I can express more craziness.
OF (34:04):
Well this is a problem with 'Common People’ because there are a lot of words.
L (34:07):
Yeah.
But that I know.
I memorised that.
OF (34:10):
And finally, what or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
L (34:14):
I have a couple of friends that inspire me, and motivated me to get better.
But some people give me inspiration not tobe like them.
Inverse inspiration.
People who are happy with very material things.
So when I see these people, I'm glad I tookthe path that I did.
OF (34:33):
Even though it's more difficult.
L (34:34):
Yes, yes.
I quit my job, I’m struggling, but I'm morehappy.
OF (34:41):
I look forward to seeing how things progress in the future for you.
Thank you so much for sharing your story.
L (34:47):
Thank you for listening.
OF (34:48):
Well, it was enlightening.
And I hope that other people listening wouldhave also experienced the same thing.
Before you leave, out of everyone you knowin China, who would you recommend that I interview
in the next season of Mosaic of China?
L (35:02):
So there's my friend Shreni.
She's American, from India.
And she's very spiritual, and she starteda career helping people through breathwork.
OF (35:17):
Breathwork.
Breathing properly.
L (35:19):
Yeah, yeah.
It’s like, your emotions and your stateare very influenced by your breathing.
OF (35:25):
I understand that completely.
I feel like I have a very shallow breathingpattern.
So I'm looking forward to meeting Shreni.
L (35:33):
Yes.
She is the best.
OF (35:36):
Well thank you so much Laodai.
L (35:38):
Thank you.
谢谢 [Xièxiè].
OF (35:40):
谢谢 [Xièxiè].
[Outro]OF: Well, I did it, I managed to finish off
the massive editing job that was this episode.
There’s an extra 20 minutes of Laodai’sstory available on the PREMIUM version of
the show, head to the website to subscribe.
Even finding and editing clips for you tohear was a monumental effort this week, but
here’s what I managed to include: [Clip 1] (36:00):
undefined
L (36:02):
Then I said “Oh this thing could have lots of potential.”
And then we broke up, for completely differentreasons.
[Clip 2]OF: It’s like “What, can no-one hear this?
How can this be happening?”
[Clip 3]L: If you stick with one master, he won’t
allow you to learn a different style.
OF (36:21):
Yes.
[Clip 4]L: Going to that festival helped me to quit
the job.
Aha.
[Clip 5]L: The Western view of it versus the Japanese
reality.
Trying to imbue more meaning onto something than actually there is, right?
L (36:31):
Yes.
[Clip 6]L: I found myself being like ‘under the
power of the rope’.
Losing control quite easily, and maybe doingthings that can break a relationship.
[Clip 7]L: It’s called 本結び [hon musubi]: ‘single
column tie.’
OF (36:46):
A ‘single column tie.’
L (36:47):
Yes, because the arm or the leg is a ‘column’.
[Clip 8]L: Genuine expressions.
Can be pain, or can be struggle, or happiness.
[Clip 9]L: A complete failure.
They would say “What, are you crazy?
Why did you ask me this?”
[Clip 10]L: So like when you tie your shoes, you never
think “Oh, I need to put this under this,and then make a loop, and then pull.”
[Clip 11]OF: You don't want to shock someone, right?
(37:08):
This is the worst thing you can do, actually surprise somebody with something like that.
[Clip 12]L: It can be very fluid.
Actually it’s more women tying men in China.
[End of Audio Clips]
Thanks once again to Laodai for sharing hisstory with us.
I’ve included a selection of photos on thewebsite and on social media, so do a search
(37:28):
for mosaicofchina or oscology on all the usualplatforms - both in China and internationally
- and you should find them there.
For obvious reasons, we focused our conversationvery much on the performance art side of his
life.
But when it comes to the lifestyle and thephilosophy behind this esoteric art form - the
(37:49):
‘Davide’ behind the ‘Laodai’ - there’ssomething all of us can take away in terms
of making us think about how we relate to- and communicate with - our most intimate
partners.
And making us think is what art’s all aboutafter all, which is why I try to include artists
of all description in the Mosaic of China.
If you want to hear similar episodes thatcover big ideas in the guise of performance
(38:11):
art in China, then take a listen in particularto ‘Cocosanti’, the drag artist from Season
02 Episode 05; or Björn Dahlman, the professionalclown from Season 02 Episode 17; or Zhang
Yuan, the performance art curator from Season02 Episode 07.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
(38:33):
These days I always include at least one catch-upconversation from a previous episode after
the closing music, and today is no exception,you will hear from the podcaster Yang Yi from
Season 01 Episode 21.
But you will notice that it’s quite short.
That’s because when Yang Yi and I caughtup, we spoke a lot about his experience appearing
as a guest on This American Life earlier inthe year.
(38:57):
I didn’t want this story to compete withLaodai’s story, so I’ve taken that part
out and made it into its own PREMIUM-onlyminisode.
I’ll be releasing that on Friday, so there’syet another reason that you really should
be subscribed by now.
And we’ll be back with another full episodefrom Season 03 next week.
(39:19):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hey Yang Yi.
YY (39:29):
Hey Oscar.
OF (39:31):
It's always a pleasure to see you.
But out of every one from Season 01, whichis now two seasons ago…
YY (39:37):
Yes.
OF (39:38):
…I think I have seen you probably the most.
YY (39:40):
Oh, really?
OF (39:42):
And there is an obvious reason for that, because I have been using your studio…
YY (39:47):
Oh yeah.
OF (39:48):
…To record Season 03.
YY (39:49):
Yes, yes.
OF (39:50):
And so I want to say officially, thank you so much for your help in getting me set
up for Season 03.
I lost access to my previous studio, and Iwas asking around, and then you just said
one day “Hey, just use my studio”.
And I was like “Perfect.
I love you.”
YY (40:04):
You’re welcome.
OF (40:05):
Thank you man, I appreciate that very much.
You, you have had many more changes sinceSeason 01.
YY (40:11):
Yes.
OF (40:12):
We did a catch-up in Season 02, and at that point you had already quit your broadcasting
job, and you had gone full-time into yourpodcasting career.
YY (40:19):
Yes.
OF (40:20):
You had 11 podcasts.
So what is the situation with your companytoday?
YY (40:25):
For original podcasts we now have twenty.
OF (40:28):
Twenty.
YY (40:29):
Yes.
And with another twenty branded podcasts.
We help companies to produce their own shows.
OF (40:36):
Right.
YY (40:37):
Yeah.
OF (40:38):
So do you offer the editing support, the production support…
YY (40:40):
Consulting support.
Because they have no audio strategy.
Maybe they were very familiar with Tiktokor social media, but they don't know audio.
So the first thing is consulting.
Audio is a very fresh thing.
You know, in many people's minds, when theytalk about audio, the first thing come to
their minds is music.
(41:01):
And then it's audiobooks.
And then it’s education.
So what is podcasting?
For them, maybe this think “Oh, it's a personalradio station.
Or an audio blog.”
They don't have the sense of what it is.
I need to tell them that a podcast is a show.
And the show is not personal, it’s a show,just like you watch on television.
(41:24):
It means well-educated tier, younger generation,the people who live in big cities, active
in business, in consuming, something likethat.
So I need to, you know, draw a picture.
And now it is not the mass-communication era.
People exist in very small groups.
OF (41:44):
Yeah.
YY (41:45):
So you need to find your target audience…
OF (41:48):
Yes.
YY (41:49):
…And match them very efficiently.
OF (41:50):
Well, that's always been my problem with Mosaic of China, because I can't focus in
on one particular thing, that’s my problem.
YY (41:57):
Ah.
OF (41:58):
But it is a diverse place.
And that makes me ask you then, so where doyou see the trends in podcasting right now?
YY (42:05):
OK, for original shows and branded podcasts, it’s very different.
So for the branded podcasts, I would tellmy clients the key word is ‘differentiate.’
You need to do something separate from othershows, and show the things you're really good
at.
Podcast listeners, they will think “Oh,you are an expert in this field.”
They will trust you.
(42:25):
And they will become your listeners, evenif the didn't know this field before.
OF (42:30):
And in terms of your shows then, why would it be different?
You obviously need to differentiate your showstoo, no?
YY (42:35):
Yes, but for original shows, maybe we have 5-10 different topics or genres we could
do.
So we need to choose.
So we need to research the marketing.
OF (42:46):
Yes.
YY (42:47):
We need to, you know, put the shows in that space.
OF (42:50):
Well, I am sure next time we catch up, you will have more and more and more.
Are you going to do an English language podcastat some point?
YY (42:59):
Oh, yes.
Maybe I will invite you to contribute somestories, something like that.
OF (43:06):
Very good.
YY (43:07):
Yes.
OF (43:08):
I am sure, when you do it, it will be great.
I'm sure it'll be better than mine as well,so…
I wish you luck.
Thank you so much for being part of this project.
You were the co-organiser of the first PodFest,which was a conference where I met you and
many other podcasting people in Shanghai.
YY (43:26):
Yeah.
OF (43:27):
And you've really been with me in my journey since that day.
And I hope that we will continue to stay intouch.
YY (43:33):
Yes, of course.
Thank you.
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