March 15, 2021 • 37 mins
Personally coming from a business background where my main tools of trade have just been a laptop and a phone, I’m always impressed with people with complex and audacious business ideas. And Alex Shoer is one of those people. In today's episode, Alex tells the story of the 'Solarcoaster' - the dramatic ups and downs of the solar industry in China over the last decade. And in this open and honest discussion, we also learn about his own personal reflections on leadership, flexibility, and the nature of business regulation in China. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Greg Nance from Season 01 Episode 23. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-23-greg-nance). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:51 - Part 1 17:09 - Part 2 27:51 - Outro 30:31 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-11-alex-shoer. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]AS: May 31 2018 came, and that's a day that
will live in infamy for the solar industry.OF: Right.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode features another China entrepreneur,and you may be listening and thinking “Like,
(00:24):
really? Do I have to listen to another dude’ssuccess story?” And I’m the same, quite
honestly. But for me, coming from a backgroundwhere for most of my business career, I basically
just needed a laptop and a phone, I’m alwaysimpressed with people with complex and audacious
business ideas, and Alex is one of those people.
Alex is the second person referred for Season2 who has subsequently found themselves locked
(00:49):
out of China. For the other example of this,please check out Episode 4 of the Season with
the Peruvian healer, Katherine Wong. Justlike Katherine, since Alex’s life and business
still keeps him tethered to China, I decidedthat he still qualifies for inclusion in the
Mosaic, and we did our conversation remotely.What I forgot to do during our interview was
(01:11):
to play him the recording of the person whoreferred him to the show, so here is the voice
of the ultramarathon athlete Greg Nance fromEpisode 23 of Season 01.
[Start of Audio Clip]Greg NANCE: I recommend Alex Shoer, and Alex
is the Founder and CEO of a company calledSeeder, which is helping factories and manufacturers
in China use green energy and solar power.[End of Audio Clip]
(01:34):
I’ve included an update recording with Gregat the end of today’s episode, so stick
around until the end for that. And beforeyou finally get to hear my chat with Alex,
I should mention that the episode is beingreleased on March 16th, which coincides with
Alex’s birthday. So, happy birthday Alex.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you, Alex. I'm here with Alex
(01:55):
Shoer. And, Alex, you are currently in Sausalitoin Northern California, right?
AS (02:01):
That is correct. OF
what is your usual job title, because thingsare so unusual now. But what box should we
put you in right now?AS: Well, I don't like to put in boxes. So
I'll give myself options, how about that?Yeah. My career role is Director of Strategy
at WeWork, so I'm actually helping to reimaginethe workplace. But I'm also the Co-Founder
(02:26):
of Seeder Clean Energy, which is a renewableenergy consulting and advisory company based
in Shanghai. So we have two hats, two boxesto put me in today.
OF (02:35):
Wow. And that sounds pretty bifurcated. It kind of is a metaphor of your life.
AS (02:40):
Yeah, you could say that. I think that's the right word, ‘bifurcated’. And Coronavirus,
this whole COVID-19 situation, has also kindof shown me that. Whatever box you're in is
not really a box at all. It just becomes a,you know, a starting point.
OF (02:54):
Yeah, well said. Well, talking of starting points, what is the object that you have,
which in some way typifies your life in China?AS: Yes, so my object is actually a hammock.
It is a portable travel hammock. And it issomething that I have never left home without.
(03:17):
You know, it weighs seven grammes… excuseme seven ounces, seven grammes would be incredibly
light. I've slept in train stations, airports,fields, parks, it basically allows me to feel
like wherever I am, I have a home. Which iskind of a nice feeling when you're someone
who travels as much as I do. It's also incrediblyuseful for someone who travels on aeroplanes
(03:40):
a lot, because flights now they don't giveyou blankets. And these long flights where
they blast air conditioning, I actually sometimesuse it as a blanket. And I'm a big napper,
so anytime I can, I take my afternoon 20 minuteto 30 minute nap. And this gives me the confidence
to do that. So whether I'm going to an officeor whatever it is, really I can go and sneak
(04:00):
out and find a little park or an area to hangup my hammock.
Oh, very nice. OK, and so in that thing, it unfurls and it becomes a big hammock, right?
AS (04:09):
Exactly. OF
Yup, it packs down to the size of a fist and unfurls into a luxurious, what feels like
a queen size bed. I’ve even seen researchthat’s shown that you actually sleep deeper
in a hammock because it somehow mimics thefeeling of being in a womb. And so I love
my hammock. And it really does go with me,even day to day to the office and things like
(04:32):
that.OF: Which is a funny segue, actually, because
I could talk about how there is a culturein China where people are encouraged to take
a little nap during the middle of the day,right?
That is a great point. Yeah, obviously I think it was one of the most shocking things
about going into the work world, or into anoffice, is seeing heads down at 1pm across
the whole office. And in some of the mostuncomfortable positions I've ever seen. I
(04:59):
definitely did not acquire that skill, whichI heard was something most of them had learned
in school.OF: Yes.
But you know, to be able to sleep with your head on a desk anywhere, that was certainly
a fascinating part.OF: Well, from napping, it’s hard to move
on to the next topic, because you are someonewho is extremely active. Tell me about what
you were up to in Shanghai these few years.Like, how long have you actually been in China?
(05:23):
So I moved to China, October 2011. You know, China was not really in the plan for
me. It was a six-week trip that got extremely,extremely extended. Within a few weeks, I
had actually met someone who would becomemy business partner in the future - and his
name's Johnny Browaeys, he’s a Belgian national,we had exchanged ideas - and so together,
(05:50):
we ended up… Honestly within a series ofweeks, we had a business plan. And we were
ready, we already started doing projects.So by my fourth or fifth week in China, we
had secured interest from a hotel in 云南[Yúnnán] for us to come and do an assessment
of their hotel, to see what environmentaltechnologies and solutions they could implement
to reduce their energy costs, be more sustainable,and essentially, to engage the local community.
(06:16):
You know, so after that, and having that allhappen so quickly, I was like, it was a no
brainer. It’s like “I'm cancelling myreturn flight. I'm sticking around. We're
gonna see how this plays out”. So that'sthe first part of this journey.
OF (06:28):
Oh, wow. Well, let's fast forward, then, to what you have until recently been doing
in China. You mentioned that you have nowdone some work with WeWork but what I'm more
interested in is your own company. So tellme about where that story ended up for you
in China?AS: Yeah, so Seeder Clean Energy became the
first company in China to offer rooftop solarfinancing for commercial and industrial buildings.
(06:53):
Wait a minute, so it's ‘rooftop solar financing', explain what that means.
AS (06:58):
Yeah, so rooftop solar financing, what that means is, it's essentially a mechanism
or a way to pay for solar panels on a rooftopof a building - so usually a factory or an
office building - without having to put upany money upfront. So usually, that's a power
purchase agreement model, which means essentiallya third party investor pays for all the solar
(07:19):
panels on the roof, and the owner of thatbuilding then basically gets a savings or
discount on their electricity from day one.So that owner of the building doesn't pay
anything, they only get savings, and the investorof that project gets to sell the electricity
to the building.OF: Yeah, interesting. So when you first thought
(07:39):
of doing this in China, had they already heardabout this model elsewhere, and they were
open to it? Or was there a period of education?AS: Total education. They had heard about,
like a leasing model, where you kind of rentthe solar panels. But never this model where
you don't have to pay anything upfront. Andso it did take a lot of education. And all
of our early customers, frankly, were Westerncompanies. So we actually had to go to Hong
(08:02):
Kong and found a Hong Kong/Singapore fundthat had experience in other markets doing
this. From there, it took us about 18 monthsto really figure out all the nuances with
the State Grid, with how to do the SpecialPurpose Vehicles - which are the entities
- and all of the paperwork attached to it.But once we did, it was kind of a big breakthrough
(08:24):
for us, and for the market. And very quickly,this whole space took off. So we were like
“We’re onto something. And it's China.And we have the right secret sauce. And we
have this untapped opportunity in the market,first to market.” So much urgency that I
think it became too much, right, where youend up starting to make sometimes poor decisions,
(08:45):
or sometimes putting too much pressure onyourself or other people, because it's just
like this fear of seeing everyone else who'sbeen in that position and then not capitalising
on it, not executing properly, or just gettingpassed by the competition. Because originally,
we were the first to market, so it was actuallypretty easy. By 2016, there were already several
players popping up, big Chinese companies,as well as a few foreign players. So you have
(09:09):
the big panel manufacturers, who are actuallyselling their own product in a way, and then
you have these big engineering companies thathave tonnes of resources.
OF (09:17):
Right. AS
more human power and capital. So then it reallybecame our whole differentiator. And that
was trust, credibility and quality. And thenwe obviously added services onto that, right.
We added verification, we added on-site advisories,we go on to the site, do the assessment. So
we, kind of again, then built our own nichewithin the niche. So then there was no one
(09:39):
else who was doing this - we call it ‘advisoryservices’ for renewable energy - because
what everyone wanted was the holy grail ofbeing the engineering company who got the
big contract to build it, or the financingcompany who put the money in, because that's
a good moneymaker too. And so we ended upserving both sides.
What's fascinating me about your story is how adaptable you were. Is that something
(10:02):
which you advise others to do? Or do you thinkthat you wished you had stuck with your original
niche?AS: Great question. You need to be adaptable,
but if you're just adapting to your environment,you're always going to be in flux. You're
always going to be going up and down, andup and down, wherever the world is pushing
you. And I think, looking back, I got a littlebit pulled into that, as opposed to taking
(10:24):
a pause, doing a little extra homework, alittle extra planning. Literally every six
months, our business model changed, or evolvedat least.
Wow. AS
and the company, to keep up with. Becauseit's like “OK, this is now working well,
let's go after this”. But then six monthslater, it's like “Oh actually, that doesn't
(10:46):
really work that well anymore. Let's go afterthis thing” which, luckily, we kept finding
new things. And that, again, comes back tomy greatest probably strength, which is this
adaptability. But the complement is this duediligence and research.
Wow, just listening to that, it does make me exhausted. Like, you would have had to
have had a lot of energy. Each time, almoststarting again, right?
AS (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, luckily it didn't feel like we were starting over, because we really did
have the same mission, same momentum, sameteam. But it was definitely exhausting. I
mean, I think I'm still in recovery mode fromthat.
OF (11:20):
There is a word that describes the industry at that time, right?
AS (11:24):
Yes, exactly. And that is the ‘Solarcoaster’, that is the ups, the downs. The market had
its own rollercoaster, of going from veryexpensive panels, to very cheap; no cash and
financing, to lots of it… That was justthe market. And then within that, we were
on our own, amplified journey. It was likethe exponential version of that. But ultimately,
(11:46):
May 31 2018 came, and that's a day that willlive in infamy for the solar industry.
OF (11:51):
Right. What happened on that day? AS
solar overnight. Due to a number of factors- that no one knows exactly why - any project
that had not yet received grid connectionwould not receive the subsidy. And so a lot
of these projects were no longer economicallyviable without the subsidy. One of our clients
(12:11):
was supposed to get their project grid connectedon May 30. The state grid called us saying
we need to reschedule until June 1. And thenon May 31, that night, they announced this
decree. June 1, I woke up, saw this. We weretoast, and that project basically did not
get the subsidy because of that one delayby the state grid, where they called and delayed
(12:32):
by two days. I heard many, many other storiesof projects that were in construction, and
then could no longer be completed, so therewere lawsuits on both sides. Anyway, it was
just really kind of a whole bloodbath forthe market and solar at that time. We were
a month or two away from an acquisition, thatwould have been a perfect partner. And after
this whole situation, they essentially said“We're no longer expanding in China". So
(12:55):
that was the biggest, that was the daggerin my heart, because I'd put a lot of hope
and work towards that. On top of our businessreally being put on the back burner. That
was the first time I felt tired. I had beenrunning on adrenaline for two or three years
where I was just going. And that was the firsttime I was like… “Ach”. You know, I
think I pretty much got burnt out. I don'tknow what the official diagnosis was, you
(13:18):
know, what officially ‘burning out’ feelslike, but I'm pretty sure that was it. After
the initial shock and exhaustion, I kind ofjust settled into the “You know, what can
you do?” And I'm just happy we were in theright position to be at this critical juncture.
And we're still here. Seeder is still goingstrong. It's a very unique space to be in,
(13:39):
the services side of renewable energy in China.And you know, we're happy to keep going at
it, and wait for the next big boom in theenergy market. And I think my bet is that's
going to be batteries and storage. That'sgoing to be the most exciting thing coming
up in the next couple of years.OF: Well I like your attitude, I think it
is healthy, because you know, a lot of people'segos get crushed. It's good to see how you
(14:03):
are able to own that situation and, you know,be vulnerable with what your story is. It's
not something I see with many white male entrepreneurs.AS: Yeah, it takes a lot of looking in the
mirror before you are able to start to seethe reality, I guess.
Nice. What does that experience tell us about how China regulates?
AS (14:24):
Great question. One is, they learned that they can create a market from willing it into
existence. Where essentially they start bysubsidising the suppliers who are manufacturing
it, then they subsidise the buyers with thedemand side, and then essentially, they move
into this market-driven support for it. Whenthey do subsidies in the future, they probably
(14:46):
will also not be so generous up-front, becauseit was a very generous subsidy for four years
or so. And in that period, I think they shouldhave just acted sooner.
OF (14:55):
And let's switch to you. So here we are, we're talking about your experiences in solar,
did you always have the dream to be in cleanenergy?
AS (15:05):
So actually, that dream kind of started after some of my travels in university when
I travelled to Tanzania, South Africa, Peru,a number of developing countries. Originally,
I got really interested in poverty alleviationthrough microfinance. You can provide someone
a small loan, but that loan is not going tofix the toxic soil that they're growing their
(15:29):
crops in, or the air pollution they're breathing,or other environmental factors which are leading
to their poverty. So I really started seeingenvironment as a bigger factor, I was like
“OK, how can I combine business and environmentin the most impactful way”. And really,
that was the hypothesis, clean energy - andultimately, solar - became the medium. Now
(15:51):
zooming out a little bit, it's actually reallyinteresting to see how clean energy very much
ties in with cities. And it very much tiesin now with transportation/mobility, right?
Now that we're going to electric vehicles,that's going to be a fascinating connection
point between clean energy and reducing coal,and has now moved into cities and the way
we live, and ultimately how we get around.It’s going to be fascinating to me to see
(16:13):
how that plays out. And ultimately, havinga source of clean energy is what it all comes
back to. If you can't power these cities orthese environments in a clean way, you're
going to have problems. And if electricityis cheap, then that means that lower-income
people can access more things, from transportation,to obviously internet and electricity at home,
(16:34):
but also to food even. You know, things likethat, you don't realise how much of the cost
of your food is the cost of energy.OF: Yeah, and this is the beauty of this project.
Because I get to interview people who seethe world through their particular lens. And
it's quite clear that you see the world throughthe lens of energy.
Yeah, I guess so. I didn't think of it like that, but now the more you say it, yeah
(16:55):
I think I agree.OF: Well, thank you, Alex. I really appreciated
hearing about the ‘Solarcoaster’ and thenext rollercoaster is around the corner, I'm
sure. On to Part 2.AS: Great.
[Part 2]OF: You have told me, and you’ve shown me
in your story, that you are persistent. Soyou're being very patient with hanging on
(17:17):
here as we go into the next part of the interview.AS: Happy to, this is fun.
OF (17:22):
Question 1, what is your favourite China related fact?
AS (17:27):
So my favourite China-related fact is actually something I learned when I went to
大理 [Dàlǐ] in 云南 [Yúnnán] Province,one of the most beautiful cities I've been
to. I went there, and I took this overnighttrain from 昆明 [Kūnmíng] to 大理 [Dàlǐ],
it was a 12 hour journey. I mean, it was…we were going up mountains, and down mountains,
and stopping, and changing tracks. It feltlike the most intense train ride I've ever
(17:50):
been on. And then I get there, and they'relike “Oh, you took the train?” I'm like
“Yeah”. “Like, why didn't you just takethe bus?” I’m like “Oh OK, isn’t the
train faster?” They’re like “No, thebus takes three hours, and you can be here
in no time”. I think it's still… I thinkthis train still exists. But apparently, the
bus is much easier. And the people who werearranging our trip didn't tell us this. And
(18:10):
so anyway, one of the most fascinating thingsis how the train can take twelve hours, but
the bus can take three. And apparently theysay that's one of 17 wonders of 云南 [Yúnnán]
Province. I don't know what the other onesare. But that's what one of the local people
said. “Oh, you've discovered one of themysteries of 云南 [Yúnnán] Province”.
There's 17. That's all I remember, is a localperson telling us.
OF (18:31):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AS (18:36):
It's actually a really simple one, but for me summarises very nicely China, which
is 一步一步来 [yībù yībù lái]. Youknow, ‘one step at a time’, basically
one step one step. I just… It answers somany questions. And if I had known that from
the beginning, it would have probably beena lot easier.
OF (18:52):
Honestly speaking, when I think about your story, I think you did the right thing.
You had to ride that wave, right?AS: Thank you for saying that, I don't think
it was a mistake. But I certainly think youknow, looking back you always know how to
make it a little bit easier.OF: So do you think nowadays you are more
一步一步来 [yībù yībù lái]?AS: I'm definitely more 一步一步来 [yībù
(19:12):
yībù lái]. But you know, that's only byexperience, not by nature. My nature is definitely
the other way around, right. Just trial byfire, test it, and see how it works. And,
you know, I never did well learning by reading,you know, I had to learn by doing. So that's
why I love audio actually, and why I lovepodcasts. It's so much easier for me to retain
the information, as opposed to reading itfor some reason.
(19:35):
No, I’m the same. I'm very bad at reading these days. What is your favourite destination
within China?AS: Actually, one of the most incredible places
I've still been is this village of 喜洲[Xǐzhōu], China, which is near 大理 [Dàlǐ]
in 云南 [Yúnnán] Province, a very smallvillage. And it's actually the place that
I did my first project, at this place calledthe Linden Centre, which is an amazing historical
(20:00):
resort. And it's just one of the places Ifell in love with. And there's a lot of history,
a lot of amazing food, they have this thingcalled the 喜洲粑粑 [Xǐzhōu bābā]
which is this… It’s like a pizza, almost,but like in a 煎饼 [jiānbing] flavour.
I don't know how to describe it, but it'samazing.
Everyone loves 云南 [Yúnnán]. OK, well here's a funny question that I usually
ask people who are in China, but for you thisis a sad reality. If you left China, what
(20:23):
would you miss the most, and what would youmiss the least? So what do you miss the most?
And what do you miss the least?AS: Yeah. What I miss the most is the people,
and the feeling of community. But within that,I miss the random conversation with strangers
about the simplest and most mundane things.You know, in the U.S., everyone asks “How
are you?” But they don't actually want toknow. In China, they want to know, they're
(20:45):
like “Tell me everything. Where are youfrom? What colour hair does your mother have?”
You know they wanna go more and more. AndI just miss that, the simple conversations
that you have with strangers.OF: Cute. And it says something about the
natural curiosity, and the the lack of boundariesin China in general. Which you could say is
(21:09):
very open, and you could say is very trespassingon your privacy. It's somewhere in between,
right?AS: Exactly.
And what about the things that you would miss the least, or do miss the least?
AS (21:20):
Yeah, it's very simple. It's air pollution. I really, really, really disliked it. And
I just… It was the mental weight that Ifelt. You know, I remember one time I went
to Beijing and came back with bronchitis,and I saw that the AQI was over 900 one time.
So yeah. And in the U.S., the good news is,when I wake up, I actually just get to check
(21:45):
the weather instead of just checking the air.OF: Right. Is there anything that still surprises
you about life in China?AS: I think it comes back to how a city - and
I'll speak more about Shanghai in this case- how a city of almost 30 million people can
feel like a village, or even a college campusat times. I know it's oftentimes the expat
(22:09):
bubble, or even the international Chinesecommunity. But something about the neighbourhoods
of Shanghai, and the districts of Shanghai,and how contained they feel, how little you
really need to leave your neighbourhood. Youhave health care, you have food, you have
social activities, you have exercise, youhave friends, you have parks, and this walkability.
(22:31):
I just, I miss that so much.OF: Yeah, that's really well said, and it
comes up a lot. Where is your favourite placeto go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?
So the place I frequent the most is actually vegetarian restaurant. It's not the coolest
hang out in town. But I actually have grownto love it. I got to know all of the staff
(22:56):
who work there.OF: It's a chain, right? There's more than
one of those places.AS: Yeah, it is a chain. I know there's at
least three in Shanghai. It has an old historiclineage of being one of the first Buddhist-style
restaurants. So the one I go to is on 五原路[Wǔyuánlù] and 武康路 [Wǔkānglù].
And they have a really nice big back patioas well. So you actually get like this kind
(23:17):
of alfresco dining if you want. And they havecheap beers, so you can go have beers at a
Buddhist restaurant.OF: I've seen these places across town, and
I've never gone in. So I’m going to checkthis out.
There you go. I hope you enjoy it. It's a little diamond in the rough.
OF (23:33):
Next one, what is the best or worst purchase you made in China?
AS (23:38):
The worst was this tent. You know, I like to do outdoor stuff and camping. So I bought
this tent on Taobao ,which I thought was like- you know, reading the descriptions and reviews
- it looks glorious and glamorous. It wasone of those pop-up tents. And I ordered it
for a festival. I'm ready to go, I’ve gotmy tent, of course I didn't really check it
before I went, I just got it and took theplastic off, and brought it. And then of course
(24:03):
I pop it up, and it's for, like, a five yearold. So the thing was like… Literally, for
three days I slept with, like, half my bodyin a tent and my legs hanging out. And I was
so lucky because it didn't rain that week.OF: What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
So my favourite WeChat sticker is ‘mind explosion’, is the best way I can describe
(24:29):
it. And it's the scientist with the mind exploding.It can change the dynamic of a conversation
very quickly.OF: There's something about this one. I think
I was late to the game on this, I receivedit maybe half a year ago. So I don't know
how long it's been around before then, butI have been using this one a lot since then.
Yeah, very functional. OF
(24:55):
So I always like to surprise and terrify people with my rapping. Because I come from
Atlanta, so I usually usually rap to one ofmy favourite Atlanta rappers. Usually it's
Outkast or Ludacris. ‘So Fresh, So Clean’is probably my favourite of the Outkast songs.
(25:16):
And then I usually do a little freestyle inthere., so I kind of make up my own words
at some point. So I take my liberties whenit comes to KTV.
OF (25:23):
Oh. That sounds like you put quite a lot of effort into it.
AS (25:26):
Well, I do, but I have to make up for all my friends and colleagues who are singing
beautiful, delicate Chinese songs, in harmony,in the right pitch, trained. And since I can't
really do those Chinese songs very well, thisis how I build my my 关系 [guānxì] in
other ways.OF: Yes, that's a great over-compensation,
I love it.AS: It is indeed.
OF (25:48):
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?AS: So I'm very impressed with how The South
China Morning Post has stepped up their reporting,and I feel like they've really done a nice
job of reaching the international audience.So I do tend to get my China news from South
China Morning Post, SCMP. But I also reallydo still enjoy Shanghai Daily just to get
(26:13):
my little daily dose of what's going on locally.It is really helpful to understand the perspective
on the ground, let's say, especially aboutthe international events happening. And there
is one website, it's actually a non-profit,they translate every Chinese government announcement.
Chinaenergyportal.org is the domain. And it'sactually a really, really useful tool.
(26:37):
Oh, good. Well, I'll give them a shout out. Perfect. Thank you so much, Alex.
AS (26:42):
Thank you, this has been really amazing. Hopefully, my journey has been a little bit
informative.OF: No I appreciate it. I think having a basis
of, at least, where you are passionate, isI think the main thing. And it's obvious that
you are passionate about what you do in energy.AS: Thank you.
OF (27:00):
Well, the final question I would ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who
should I interview for the next season ofMosaic of China?
AS (27:09):
My suggestion and recommendation is going to be Francesca Valsecchi. She's an amazing,
just rock star. I mean, she is the epitomeof an environmental warrior. She's very much
focused on using design research to essentiallyreimagine our ecosystems and consumption and
(27:33):
community development. She's an AssociateProfessor at 同济 [Tóngjì] University,
and she's also super active in Dragon Burn.She's one of the main organisers, which is
the Burning Man of China. So be ready forthat.
OF (27:46):
Awesome. I can't wait. Thanks so much, Alex.
AS (27:49):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: The update from Alex is that he’s still
managing his business from outside China,so let’s see where he ends up in 2021. I
know where his apartment is in Shanghai, becauseI walk past it every day. So here’s wishing
you good luck Alex.
(28:09):
If you think his ‘solarcoaster’ storywas dramatic, you should also hear the full
story about how he ended up living on a boatin Sausalito, via New Zealand, New York and
Lake Tahoe. To hear our full interview, pleasesubscribe to the PREMIUM version on patreon.com/mosaicofchina,
and here are some clips to help convince you…
[Clip 1]AS: In Shanghai there are 3,000 students,
(28:32):
they're setting up a satellite campus at WeWorkfor those students.
[Clip 2]AS: The immigration agents were asking me
“Did you just come in from China?” AndI said “Yeah”. And they were like “Right
this way, separate line”.[Clip 3]
And literally, you go to sleep and you wake up the next day, and your industry is
essentially on hold.[Clip 4]
The complexity of it was just too high, contracts weren't as enforceable as they might
(28:53):
be now.[Clip 5]
They did it really well. They crushed Germany. By 2016, they were nothing.
[Clip 6]AS: I was just blown away by the audaciousness
of some of the problems they were trying tosolve.
[End of Audio Clips]
Recent travellers to 云南 [Yúnnán] Provincemight be scratching their heads about Alex’s
favourite China-related fact that the trainfrom 昆明 [Kūnmíng] to 大理 [Dàlǐ]
(29:14):
takes 12 hours. Actually since Alex did thistrip, they have made built a high-speed train
link. Of course. This reminds me of Episode05 in the Season with the drag queen Cocosanti,
who answered that same question by sayingshe didn’t have a favourite China-related
fact, because those ‘facts’ keep changing.And Alex’s answer is a great example of
(29:35):
this.
Please check out Facebook, WeChat or the websitemosaicofchina.com to see the visuals for today’s
episode, which include Alex’s object, thetravel hammock; his favourite ‘mind explosion’
WeChat sticker, and lots of photos that hekindly shared with me from his time at Seeder
Clean Energy.
(29:55):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. As promised in the intro,
there now follows a catch-up chat with GregNance from Episode 23 of Season 01, who is
also stuck outside of China right now. Somethingwent wrong at the beginning of our remote
recording, but it fixes itself pretty quickly,and sounds normal again directly after he
(30:15):
says the phrase "3,000 days sober". Thanksfor listening up till now, and see you next
time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Greg.
Greg Nance (30:30):
Hello, Oscar, I am so excited to see you, man. So on March 16 2020, I was
celebrating 3,000 days sober. And with thatsobriety milestone, was planning to publicly
announce “I'm doing this run across America,3,000 miles to honour the 3,000 days. Here's
(30:55):
this documentary we're trying to make.”OF: Yes.
GN (30:56):
I was like, super fired up on that, you know. Mosaic of China was a big part of having
the courage to tell the story. And our conversation,Oscar, I think was really the catalyst in
so many ways. And I was so excited, like,finally to share this with my friends and
with the world. And that was literally thefirst day of Washington State lockdown, where
"No-one cares about the movie you're tryingto make, dude”. And that was the perfect
(31:21):
little metaphor for 2020 for me, where noneof my plans have come to fruition. And every
one of us is dealing with unforeseen adversityand big obstacles, big setbacks. And really,
for the first couple months, I felt prettysorry for myself, you know “Oh, boohoo,
I had all these plans". It really took megetting out of my own head for a second, realising
(31:45):
“Look, I am so lucky”. I have my health,I'm with my family, I'm still able to do my
work remotely no problem, I live in a bigforest, it's beautiful here. And I’m just
trying to make the most of this wild momentthat we have. Like, I'm never gonna spend
this much time with mom and dad. And beingable to see my little nieces at this age.
So it's been an amazing year in a lot of ways.I'm trying to make the most of the good fortune,
(32:09):
of the blessings I do have.OF: Yes. And I follow you on social media,
and I did see that you did make an announcementabout that run across America that you will
be doing. So you are now officially, out asa person managing addiction. How was that
received by your friends and family who perhapsdidn't know the full story?
Yeah, it’s… I really had these two parallel lives, parallel existences that I
(32:33):
was living. And I was really, really nervousto embrace both sides. Because on one side,
you're lauded as this entrepreneur, athlete.And the other is this thing that you're doing
in secret, in darkness. And the days leadinginto that just felt like… I was waking up
in the middle of night, I was not able toget to bed, just really nervous. And something
(32:56):
amazing happens once you actually put it outthere, once I shared. It's an amazing thing,
where friends are calling you, texting you,messaging you. And you realise how many people
that you really care about, are also dealingwith that, and had no idea that you're dealing
with it, and you had no idea that are. AndI now feel… I've never felt better supported.
(33:17):
And to anyone listening that is dealing withstuff, my encouragement is, be open, find
that courage within yourself to share, becauseamazing things do happen. And starting on
March 16 of 2020, I'm into an amazing newchapter of my life, in part by being out and
sharing all this stuff. And it wasn't easycertainly to do that, but it's been beautiful.
OF (33:40):
Wow. You owning that story was one of the things that we talked about. And it's
just great to see you do that, having seenyou go through that process in the last year.
Maybe that's what explains that huge smileon your face today.
GN (33:53):
Hey, it's part of it, man. And again, meeting you, and our conversations, every
little milestone gives you a little bit moreconfidence and courage to own your truth.
OF (34:03):
Yes. GN
Well, look, you were already on that road. And I know that you had a coach and a therapist
who was helping you with that in the background.Keep smiling, Greg. And I'm thinking about
our interview, and I remember the things thatyou said that you would miss the most, and
miss the least, when you left China. And hereyou are, you have - at least for a year - left
(34:25):
China. You were saying that you would missthe dynamism, the energy; you wouldn't miss
the reckless 饿了么 [Èleme] drivers onthe pavements. Tell me, what actually did
you end up missing the most, and what didyou end up missing the least?
GN (34:37):
Yeah, so I have really, really missed the wonderful people that were in my life
there. You just remember the great times youhad. And there's this layer of stress that
was in my life the entire time I was in Shanghai,running a company and the stresses of all
that. But there's all these wonderful peoplethat want nothing but the best for you. And
(34:57):
you're sharing this incredibly enriching life-affirmingexperience in Shanghai. And that is I think
the thing I missed the most. Crazy 饿了么[Èleme] drivers, sleepless nights, 3am phone
calls for timezone arbitrage, and the hamster-wheelof work… Those elements are things I don't,
(35:18):
I certainly don't miss, I miss the least.And I think I'm a healthier, happier person
in this phase of my life, in the moment. AndI've really redeveloped some semblance of
balance. Being close to family means a lotto me, having beautiful nature. Those little
things, they ultimately make you who you are,and I feel really blessed to be where I am
(35:40):
today.OF: Well, it's funny that you are talking
to me on the West Coast, because we are talkingin parallel to the release of the episode
that I recorded with your referral for Season2, Alex Shoer.
Oh fantastic. OF
Coast of the U.S., in very similar circumstances,enjoying nature. Have you been in touch with
(36:01):
Alex throughout this period?GN: We have. So Alex is one of my counter-buddies.
And it's been wonderful because he's a guythat… We moved to China within a few months
of each other. We both rode the rollercoaster,the highest highs, lowest lows, everything
in between. And now we're both pivoting andtrying to reinvent what's ahead. And he's
a really, really special guy, and he's someonethat has wonderful insights. So I learn a
(36:24):
lot from him every time.OF: Wonderful. Well, that’s a lovely connection.
And it's of course great to continue to havea connection with you as well. Greg. Let’s
continue to keep in touch. I'm very proudthat you are part of this project. Don't be
a stranger, please.GN: Heck yeah. Thank you, Oscar, Godspeed.
[Trailer]AS: May 31 2018 came, and that's a day that
will live in infamy for the solar industry.OF: Right.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode features another China entrepreneur,and you may be listening and thinking “Like,
(00:24):
really? Do I have to listen to another dude’ssuccess story?” And I’m the same, quite
honestly. But for me, coming from a backgroundwhere for most of my business career, I basically
just needed a laptop and a phone, I’m alwaysimpressed with people with complex and audacious
business ideas, and Alex is one of those people.
Alex is the second person referred for Season2 who has subsequently found themselves locked
(00:49):
out of China. For the other example of this,please check out Episode 4 of the Season with
the Peruvian healer, Katherine Wong. Justlike Katherine, since Alex’s life and business
still keeps him tethered to China, I decidedthat he still qualifies for inclusion in the
Mosaic, and we did our conversation remotely.What I forgot to do during our interview was
(01:11):
to play him the recording of the person whoreferred him to the show, so here is the voice
of the ultramarathon athlete Greg Nance fromEpisode 23 of Season 01.
[Start of Audio Clip]Greg NANCE: I recommend Alex Shoer, and Alex
is the Founder and CEO of a company calledSeeder, which is helping factories and manufacturers
in China use green energy and solar power.[End of Audio Clip]
(01:34):
I’ve included an update recording with Gregat the end of today’s episode, so stick
around until the end for that. And beforeyou finally get to hear my chat with Alex,
I should mention that the episode is beingreleased on March 16th, which coincides with
Alex’s birthday. So, happy birthday Alex.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you, Alex. I'm here with Alex
(01:55):
Shoer. And, Alex, you are currently in Sausalitoin Northern California, right?
AS (02:01):
That is correct. OF
what is your usual job title, because thingsare so unusual now. But what box should we
put you in right now?AS: Well, I don't like to put in boxes. So
I'll give myself options, how about that?Yeah. My career role is Director of Strategy
at WeWork, so I'm actually helping to reimaginethe workplace. But I'm also the Co-Founder
(02:26):
of Seeder Clean Energy, which is a renewableenergy consulting and advisory company based
in Shanghai. So we have two hats, two boxesto put me in today.
OF (02:35):
Wow. And that sounds pretty bifurcated. It kind of is a metaphor of your life.
AS (02:40):
Yeah, you could say that. I think that's the right word, ‘bifurcated’. And Coronavirus,
this whole COVID-19 situation, has also kindof shown me that. Whatever box you're in is
not really a box at all. It just becomes a,you know, a starting point.
OF (02:54):
Yeah, well said. Well, talking of starting points, what is the object that you have,
which in some way typifies your life in China?AS: Yes, so my object is actually a hammock.
It is a portable travel hammock. And it issomething that I have never left home without.
(03:17):
You know, it weighs seven grammes… excuseme seven ounces, seven grammes would be incredibly
light. I've slept in train stations, airports,fields, parks, it basically allows me to feel
like wherever I am, I have a home. Which iskind of a nice feeling when you're someone
who travels as much as I do. It's also incrediblyuseful for someone who travels on aeroplanes
(03:40):
a lot, because flights now they don't giveyou blankets. And these long flights where
they blast air conditioning, I actually sometimesuse it as a blanket. And I'm a big napper,
so anytime I can, I take my afternoon 20 minuteto 30 minute nap. And this gives me the confidence
to do that. So whether I'm going to an officeor whatever it is, really I can go and sneak
(04:00):
out and find a little park or an area to hangup my hammock.
Oh, very nice. OK, and so in that thing, it unfurls and it becomes a big hammock, right?
AS (04:09):
Exactly. OF
Yup, it packs down to the size of a fist and unfurls into a luxurious, what feels like
a queen size bed. I’ve even seen researchthat’s shown that you actually sleep deeper
in a hammock because it somehow mimics thefeeling of being in a womb. And so I love
my hammock. And it really does go with me,even day to day to the office and things like
(04:32):
that.OF: Which is a funny segue, actually, because
I could talk about how there is a culturein China where people are encouraged to take
a little nap during the middle of the day,right?
That is a great point. Yeah, obviously I think it was one of the most shocking things
about going into the work world, or into anoffice, is seeing heads down at 1pm across
the whole office. And in some of the mostuncomfortable positions I've ever seen. I
(04:59):
definitely did not acquire that skill, whichI heard was something most of them had learned
in school.OF: Yes.
But you know, to be able to sleep with your head on a desk anywhere, that was certainly
a fascinating part.OF: Well, from napping, it’s hard to move
on to the next topic, because you are someonewho is extremely active. Tell me about what
you were up to in Shanghai these few years.Like, how long have you actually been in China?
(05:23):
So I moved to China, October 2011. You know, China was not really in the plan for
me. It was a six-week trip that got extremely,extremely extended. Within a few weeks, I
had actually met someone who would becomemy business partner in the future - and his
name's Johnny Browaeys, he’s a Belgian national,we had exchanged ideas - and so together,
(05:50):
we ended up… Honestly within a series ofweeks, we had a business plan. And we were
ready, we already started doing projects.So by my fourth or fifth week in China, we
had secured interest from a hotel in 云南[Yúnnán] for us to come and do an assessment
of their hotel, to see what environmentaltechnologies and solutions they could implement
to reduce their energy costs, be more sustainable,and essentially, to engage the local community.
(06:16):
You know, so after that, and having that allhappen so quickly, I was like, it was a no
brainer. It’s like “I'm cancelling myreturn flight. I'm sticking around. We're
gonna see how this plays out”. So that'sthe first part of this journey.
OF (06:28):
Oh, wow. Well, let's fast forward, then, to what you have until recently been doing
in China. You mentioned that you have nowdone some work with WeWork but what I'm more
interested in is your own company. So tellme about where that story ended up for you
in China?AS: Yeah, so Seeder Clean Energy became the
first company in China to offer rooftop solarfinancing for commercial and industrial buildings.
(06:53):
Wait a minute, so it's ‘rooftop solar financing', explain what that means.
AS (06:58):
Yeah, so rooftop solar financing, what that means is, it's essentially a mechanism
or a way to pay for solar panels on a rooftopof a building - so usually a factory or an
office building - without having to put upany money upfront. So usually, that's a power
purchase agreement model, which means essentiallya third party investor pays for all the solar
(07:19):
panels on the roof, and the owner of thatbuilding then basically gets a savings or
discount on their electricity from day one.So that owner of the building doesn't pay
anything, they only get savings, and the investorof that project gets to sell the electricity
to the building.OF: Yeah, interesting. So when you first thought
(07:39):
of doing this in China, had they already heardabout this model elsewhere, and they were
open to it? Or was there a period of education?AS: Total education. They had heard about,
like a leasing model, where you kind of rentthe solar panels. But never this model where
you don't have to pay anything upfront. Andso it did take a lot of education. And all
of our early customers, frankly, were Westerncompanies. So we actually had to go to Hong
(08:02):
Kong and found a Hong Kong/Singapore fundthat had experience in other markets doing
this. From there, it took us about 18 monthsto really figure out all the nuances with
the State Grid, with how to do the SpecialPurpose Vehicles - which are the entities
- and all of the paperwork attached to it.But once we did, it was kind of a big breakthrough
(08:24):
for us, and for the market. And very quickly,this whole space took off. So we were like
“We’re onto something. And it's China.And we have the right secret sauce. And we
have this untapped opportunity in the market,first to market.” So much urgency that I
think it became too much, right, where youend up starting to make sometimes poor decisions,
(08:45):
or sometimes putting too much pressure onyourself or other people, because it's just
like this fear of seeing everyone else who'sbeen in that position and then not capitalising
on it, not executing properly, or just gettingpassed by the competition. Because originally,
we were the first to market, so it was actuallypretty easy. By 2016, there were already several
players popping up, big Chinese companies,as well as a few foreign players. So you have
(09:09):
the big panel manufacturers, who are actuallyselling their own product in a way, and then
you have these big engineering companies thathave tonnes of resources.
OF (09:17):
Right. AS
more human power and capital. So then it reallybecame our whole differentiator. And that
was trust, credibility and quality. And thenwe obviously added services onto that, right.
We added verification, we added on-site advisories,we go on to the site, do the assessment. So
we, kind of again, then built our own nichewithin the niche. So then there was no one
(09:39):
else who was doing this - we call it ‘advisoryservices’ for renewable energy - because
what everyone wanted was the holy grail ofbeing the engineering company who got the
big contract to build it, or the financingcompany who put the money in, because that's
a good moneymaker too. And so we ended upserving both sides.
What's fascinating me about your story is how adaptable you were. Is that something
(10:02):
which you advise others to do? Or do you thinkthat you wished you had stuck with your original
niche?AS: Great question. You need to be adaptable,
but if you're just adapting to your environment,you're always going to be in flux. You're
always going to be going up and down, andup and down, wherever the world is pushing
you. And I think, looking back, I got a littlebit pulled into that, as opposed to taking
(10:24):
a pause, doing a little extra homework, alittle extra planning. Literally every six
months, our business model changed, or evolvedat least.
Wow. AS
and the company, to keep up with. Becauseit's like “OK, this is now working well,
let's go after this”. But then six monthslater, it's like “Oh actually, that doesn't
(10:46):
really work that well anymore. Let's go afterthis thing” which, luckily, we kept finding
new things. And that, again, comes back tomy greatest probably strength, which is this
adaptability. But the complement is this duediligence and research.
Wow, just listening to that, it does make me exhausted. Like, you would have had to
have had a lot of energy. Each time, almoststarting again, right?
AS (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, luckily it didn't feel like we were starting over, because we really did
have the same mission, same momentum, sameteam. But it was definitely exhausting. I
mean, I think I'm still in recovery mode fromthat.
OF (11:20):
There is a word that describes the industry at that time, right?
AS (11:24):
Yes, exactly. And that is the ‘Solarcoaster’, that is the ups, the downs. The market had
its own rollercoaster, of going from veryexpensive panels, to very cheap; no cash and
financing, to lots of it… That was justthe market. And then within that, we were
on our own, amplified journey. It was likethe exponential version of that. But ultimately,
(11:46):
May 31 2018 came, and that's a day that willlive in infamy for the solar industry.
OF (11:51):
Right. What happened on that day? AS
solar overnight. Due to a number of factors- that no one knows exactly why - any project
that had not yet received grid connectionwould not receive the subsidy. And so a lot
of these projects were no longer economicallyviable without the subsidy. One of our clients
(12:11):
was supposed to get their project grid connectedon May 30. The state grid called us saying
we need to reschedule until June 1. And thenon May 31, that night, they announced this
decree. June 1, I woke up, saw this. We weretoast, and that project basically did not
get the subsidy because of that one delayby the state grid, where they called and delayed
(12:32):
by two days. I heard many, many other storiesof projects that were in construction, and
then could no longer be completed, so therewere lawsuits on both sides. Anyway, it was
just really kind of a whole bloodbath forthe market and solar at that time. We were
a month or two away from an acquisition, thatwould have been a perfect partner. And after
this whole situation, they essentially said“We're no longer expanding in China". So
(12:55):
that was the biggest, that was the daggerin my heart, because I'd put a lot of hope
and work towards that. On top of our businessreally being put on the back burner. That
was the first time I felt tired. I had beenrunning on adrenaline for two or three years
where I was just going. And that was the firsttime I was like… “Ach”. You know, I
think I pretty much got burnt out. I don'tknow what the official diagnosis was, you
(13:18):
know, what officially ‘burning out’ feelslike, but I'm pretty sure that was it. After
the initial shock and exhaustion, I kind ofjust settled into the “You know, what can
you do?” And I'm just happy we were in theright position to be at this critical juncture.
And we're still here. Seeder is still goingstrong. It's a very unique space to be in,
(13:39):
the services side of renewable energy in China.And you know, we're happy to keep going at
it, and wait for the next big boom in theenergy market. And I think my bet is that's
going to be batteries and storage. That'sgoing to be the most exciting thing coming
up in the next couple of years.OF: Well I like your attitude, I think it
is healthy, because you know, a lot of people'segos get crushed. It's good to see how you
(14:03):
are able to own that situation and, you know,be vulnerable with what your story is. It's
not something I see with many white male entrepreneurs.AS: Yeah, it takes a lot of looking in the
mirror before you are able to start to seethe reality, I guess.
Nice. What does that experience tell us about how China regulates?
AS (14:24):
Great question. One is, they learned that they can create a market from willing it into
existence. Where essentially they start bysubsidising the suppliers who are manufacturing
it, then they subsidise the buyers with thedemand side, and then essentially, they move
into this market-driven support for it. Whenthey do subsidies in the future, they probably
(14:46):
will also not be so generous up-front, becauseit was a very generous subsidy for four years
or so. And in that period, I think they shouldhave just acted sooner.
OF (14:55):
And let's switch to you. So here we are, we're talking about your experiences in solar,
did you always have the dream to be in cleanenergy?
AS (15:05):
So actually, that dream kind of started after some of my travels in university when
I travelled to Tanzania, South Africa, Peru,a number of developing countries. Originally,
I got really interested in poverty alleviationthrough microfinance. You can provide someone
a small loan, but that loan is not going tofix the toxic soil that they're growing their
(15:29):
crops in, or the air pollution they're breathing,or other environmental factors which are leading
to their poverty. So I really started seeingenvironment as a bigger factor, I was like
“OK, how can I combine business and environmentin the most impactful way”. And really,
that was the hypothesis, clean energy - andultimately, solar - became the medium. Now
(15:51):
zooming out a little bit, it's actually reallyinteresting to see how clean energy very much
ties in with cities. And it very much tiesin now with transportation/mobility, right?
Now that we're going to electric vehicles,that's going to be a fascinating connection
point between clean energy and reducing coal,and has now moved into cities and the way
we live, and ultimately how we get around.It’s going to be fascinating to me to see
(16:13):
how that plays out. And ultimately, havinga source of clean energy is what it all comes
back to. If you can't power these cities orthese environments in a clean way, you're
going to have problems. And if electricityis cheap, then that means that lower-income
people can access more things, from transportation,to obviously internet and electricity at home,
(16:34):
but also to food even. You know, things likethat, you don't realise how much of the cost
of your food is the cost of energy.OF: Yeah, and this is the beauty of this project.
Because I get to interview people who seethe world through their particular lens. And
it's quite clear that you see the world throughthe lens of energy.
Yeah, I guess so. I didn't think of it like that, but now the more you say it, yeah
(16:55):
I think I agree.OF: Well, thank you, Alex. I really appreciated
hearing about the ‘Solarcoaster’ and thenext rollercoaster is around the corner, I'm
sure. On to Part 2.AS: Great.
[Part 2]OF: You have told me, and you’ve shown me
in your story, that you are persistent. Soyou're being very patient with hanging on
(17:17):
here as we go into the next part of the interview.AS: Happy to, this is fun.
OF (17:22):
Question 1, what is your favourite China related fact?
AS (17:27):
So my favourite China-related fact is actually something I learned when I went to
大理 [Dàlǐ] in 云南 [Yúnnán] Province,one of the most beautiful cities I've been
to. I went there, and I took this overnighttrain from 昆明 [Kūnmíng] to 大理 [Dàlǐ],
it was a 12 hour journey. I mean, it was…we were going up mountains, and down mountains,
and stopping, and changing tracks. It feltlike the most intense train ride I've ever
(17:50):
been on. And then I get there, and they'relike “Oh, you took the train?” I'm like
“Yeah”. “Like, why didn't you just takethe bus?” I’m like “Oh OK, isn’t the
train faster?” They’re like “No, thebus takes three hours, and you can be here
in no time”. I think it's still… I thinkthis train still exists. But apparently, the
bus is much easier. And the people who werearranging our trip didn't tell us this. And
(18:10):
so anyway, one of the most fascinating thingsis how the train can take twelve hours, but
the bus can take three. And apparently theysay that's one of 17 wonders of 云南 [Yúnnán]
Province. I don't know what the other onesare. But that's what one of the local people
said. “Oh, you've discovered one of themysteries of 云南 [Yúnnán] Province”.
There's 17. That's all I remember, is a localperson telling us.
OF (18:31):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
AS (18:36):
It's actually a really simple one, but for me summarises very nicely China, which
is 一步一步来 [yībù yībù lái]. Youknow, ‘one step at a time’, basically
one step one step. I just… It answers somany questions. And if I had known that from
the beginning, it would have probably beena lot easier.
OF (18:52):
Honestly speaking, when I think about your story, I think you did the right thing.
You had to ride that wave, right?AS: Thank you for saying that, I don't think
it was a mistake. But I certainly think youknow, looking back you always know how to
make it a little bit easier.OF: So do you think nowadays you are more
一步一步来 [yībù yībù lái]?AS: I'm definitely more 一步一步来 [yībù
(19:12):
yībù lái]. But you know, that's only byexperience, not by nature. My nature is definitely
the other way around, right. Just trial byfire, test it, and see how it works. And,
you know, I never did well learning by reading,you know, I had to learn by doing. So that's
why I love audio actually, and why I lovepodcasts. It's so much easier for me to retain
the information, as opposed to reading itfor some reason.
(19:35):
No, I’m the same. I'm very bad at reading these days. What is your favourite destination
within China?AS: Actually, one of the most incredible places
I've still been is this village of 喜洲[Xǐzhōu], China, which is near 大理 [Dàlǐ]
in 云南 [Yúnnán] Province, a very smallvillage. And it's actually the place that
I did my first project, at this place calledthe Linden Centre, which is an amazing historical
(20:00):
resort. And it's just one of the places Ifell in love with. And there's a lot of history,
a lot of amazing food, they have this thingcalled the 喜洲粑粑 [Xǐzhōu bābā]
which is this… It’s like a pizza, almost,but like in a 煎饼 [jiānbing] flavour.
I don't know how to describe it, but it'samazing.
Everyone loves 云南 [Yúnnán]. OK, well here's a funny question that I usually
ask people who are in China, but for you thisis a sad reality. If you left China, what
(20:23):
would you miss the most, and what would youmiss the least? So what do you miss the most?
And what do you miss the least?AS: Yeah. What I miss the most is the people,
and the feeling of community. But within that,I miss the random conversation with strangers
about the simplest and most mundane things.You know, in the U.S., everyone asks “How
are you?” But they don't actually want toknow. In China, they want to know, they're
(20:45):
like “Tell me everything. Where are youfrom? What colour hair does your mother have?”
You know they wanna go more and more. AndI just miss that, the simple conversations
that you have with strangers.OF: Cute. And it says something about the
natural curiosity, and the the lack of boundariesin China in general. Which you could say is
(21:09):
very open, and you could say is very trespassingon your privacy. It's somewhere in between,
right?AS: Exactly.
And what about the things that you would miss the least, or do miss the least?
AS (21:20):
Yeah, it's very simple. It's air pollution. I really, really, really disliked it. And
I just… It was the mental weight that Ifelt. You know, I remember one time I went
to Beijing and came back with bronchitis,and I saw that the AQI was over 900 one time.
So yeah. And in the U.S., the good news is,when I wake up, I actually just get to check
(21:45):
the weather instead of just checking the air.OF: Right. Is there anything that still surprises
you about life in China?AS: I think it comes back to how a city - and
I'll speak more about Shanghai in this case- how a city of almost 30 million people can
feel like a village, or even a college campusat times. I know it's oftentimes the expat
(22:09):
bubble, or even the international Chinesecommunity. But something about the neighbourhoods
of Shanghai, and the districts of Shanghai,and how contained they feel, how little you
really need to leave your neighbourhood. Youhave health care, you have food, you have
social activities, you have exercise, youhave friends, you have parks, and this walkability.
(22:31):
I just, I miss that so much.OF: Yeah, that's really well said, and it
comes up a lot. Where is your favourite placeto go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?
So the place I frequent the most is actually vegetarian restaurant. It's not the coolest
hang out in town. But I actually have grownto love it. I got to know all of the staff
(22:56):
who work there.OF: It's a chain, right? There's more than
one of those places.AS: Yeah, it is a chain. I know there's at
least three in Shanghai. It has an old historiclineage of being one of the first Buddhist-style
restaurants. So the one I go to is on 五原路[Wǔyuánlù] and 武康路 [Wǔkānglù].
And they have a really nice big back patioas well. So you actually get like this kind
(23:17):
of alfresco dining if you want. And they havecheap beers, so you can go have beers at a
Buddhist restaurant.OF: I've seen these places across town, and
I've never gone in. So I’m going to checkthis out.
There you go. I hope you enjoy it. It's a little diamond in the rough.
OF (23:33):
Next one, what is the best or worst purchase you made in China?
AS (23:38):
The worst was this tent. You know, I like to do outdoor stuff and camping. So I bought
this tent on Taobao ,which I thought was like- you know, reading the descriptions and reviews
- it looks glorious and glamorous. It wasone of those pop-up tents. And I ordered it
for a festival. I'm ready to go, I’ve gotmy tent, of course I didn't really check it
before I went, I just got it and took theplastic off, and brought it. And then of course
(24:03):
I pop it up, and it's for, like, a five yearold. So the thing was like… Literally, for
three days I slept with, like, half my bodyin a tent and my legs hanging out. And I was
so lucky because it didn't rain that week.OF: What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
So my favourite WeChat sticker is ‘mind explosion’, is the best way I can describe
(24:29):
it. And it's the scientist with the mind exploding.It can change the dynamic of a conversation
very quickly.OF: There's something about this one. I think
I was late to the game on this, I receivedit maybe half a year ago. So I don't know
how long it's been around before then, butI have been using this one a lot since then.
Yeah, very functional. OF
(24:55):
So I always like to surprise and terrify people with my rapping. Because I come from
Atlanta, so I usually usually rap to one ofmy favourite Atlanta rappers. Usually it's
Outkast or Ludacris. ‘So Fresh, So Clean’is probably my favourite of the Outkast songs.
(25:16):
And then I usually do a little freestyle inthere., so I kind of make up my own words
at some point. So I take my liberties whenit comes to KTV.
OF (25:23):
Oh. That sounds like you put quite a lot of effort into it.
AS (25:26):
Well, I do, but I have to make up for all my friends and colleagues who are singing
beautiful, delicate Chinese songs, in harmony,in the right pitch, trained. And since I can't
really do those Chinese songs very well, thisis how I build my my 关系 [guānxì] in
other ways.OF: Yes, that's a great over-compensation,
I love it.AS: It is indeed.
OF (25:48):
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you rely
on?AS: So I'm very impressed with how The South
China Morning Post has stepped up their reporting,and I feel like they've really done a nice
job of reaching the international audience.So I do tend to get my China news from South
China Morning Post, SCMP. But I also reallydo still enjoy Shanghai Daily just to get
(26:13):
my little daily dose of what's going on locally.It is really helpful to understand the perspective
on the ground, let's say, especially aboutthe international events happening. And there
is one website, it's actually a non-profit,they translate every Chinese government announcement.
Chinaenergyportal.org is the domain. And it'sactually a really, really useful tool.
(26:37):
Oh, good. Well, I'll give them a shout out. Perfect. Thank you so much, Alex.
AS (26:42):
Thank you, this has been really amazing. Hopefully, my journey has been a little bit
informative.OF: No I appreciate it. I think having a basis
of, at least, where you are passionate, isI think the main thing. And it's obvious that
you are passionate about what you do in energy.AS: Thank you.
OF (27:00):
Well, the final question I would ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who
should I interview for the next season ofMosaic of China?
AS (27:09):
My suggestion and recommendation is going to be Francesca Valsecchi. She's an amazing,
just rock star. I mean, she is the epitomeof an environmental warrior. She's very much
focused on using design research to essentiallyreimagine our ecosystems and consumption and
(27:33):
community development. She's an AssociateProfessor at 同济 [Tóngjì] University,
and she's also super active in Dragon Burn.She's one of the main organisers, which is
the Burning Man of China. So be ready forthat.
OF (27:46):
Awesome. I can't wait. Thanks so much, Alex.
AS (27:49):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: The update from Alex is that he’s still
managing his business from outside China,so let’s see where he ends up in 2021. I
know where his apartment is in Shanghai, becauseI walk past it every day. So here’s wishing
you good luck Alex.
(28:09):
If you think his ‘solarcoaster’ storywas dramatic, you should also hear the full
story about how he ended up living on a boatin Sausalito, via New Zealand, New York and
Lake Tahoe. To hear our full interview, pleasesubscribe to the PREMIUM version on patreon.com/mosaicofchina,
and here are some clips to help convince you…
[Clip 1]AS: In Shanghai there are 3,000 students,
(28:32):
they're setting up a satellite campus at WeWorkfor those students.
[Clip 2]AS: The immigration agents were asking me
“Did you just come in from China?” AndI said “Yeah”. And they were like “Right
this way, separate line”.[Clip 3]
And literally, you go to sleep and you wake up the next day, and your industry is
essentially on hold.[Clip 4]
The complexity of it was just too high, contracts weren't as enforceable as they might
(28:53):
be now.[Clip 5]
They did it really well. They crushed Germany. By 2016, they were nothing.
[Clip 6]AS: I was just blown away by the audaciousness
of some of the problems they were trying tosolve.
[End of Audio Clips]
Recent travellers to 云南 [Yúnnán] Provincemight be scratching their heads about Alex’s
favourite China-related fact that the trainfrom 昆明 [Kūnmíng] to 大理 [Dàlǐ]
(29:14):
takes 12 hours. Actually since Alex did thistrip, they have made built a high-speed train
link. Of course. This reminds me of Episode05 in the Season with the drag queen Cocosanti,
who answered that same question by sayingshe didn’t have a favourite China-related
fact, because those ‘facts’ keep changing.And Alex’s answer is a great example of
(29:35):
this.
Please check out Facebook, WeChat or the websitemosaicofchina.com to see the visuals for today’s
episode, which include Alex’s object, thetravel hammock; his favourite ‘mind explosion’
WeChat sticker, and lots of photos that hekindly shared with me from his time at Seeder
Clean Energy.
(29:55):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. As promised in the intro,
there now follows a catch-up chat with GregNance from Episode 23 of Season 01, who is
also stuck outside of China right now. Somethingwent wrong at the beginning of our remote
recording, but it fixes itself pretty quickly,and sounds normal again directly after he
(30:15):
says the phrase "3,000 days sober". Thanksfor listening up till now, and see you next
time.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello, Greg.
Greg Nance (30:30):
Hello, Oscar, I am so excited to see you, man. So on March 16 2020, I was
celebrating 3,000 days sober. And with thatsobriety milestone, was planning to publicly
announce “I'm doing this run across America,3,000 miles to honour the 3,000 days. Here's
(30:55):
this documentary we're trying to make.”OF: Yes.
GN (30:56):
I was like, super fired up on that, you know. Mosaic of China was a big part of having
the courage to tell the story. And our conversation,Oscar, I think was really the catalyst in
so many ways. And I was so excited, like,finally to share this with my friends and
with the world. And that was literally thefirst day of Washington State lockdown, where
"No-one cares about the movie you're tryingto make, dude”. And that was the perfect
(31:21):
little metaphor for 2020 for me, where noneof my plans have come to fruition. And every
one of us is dealing with unforeseen adversityand big obstacles, big setbacks. And really,
for the first couple months, I felt prettysorry for myself, you know “Oh, boohoo,
I had all these plans". It really took megetting out of my own head for a second, realising
(31:45):
“Look, I am so lucky”. I have my health,I'm with my family, I'm still able to do my
work remotely no problem, I live in a bigforest, it's beautiful here. And I’m just
trying to make the most of this wild momentthat we have. Like, I'm never gonna spend
this much time with mom and dad. And beingable to see my little nieces at this age.
So it's been an amazing year in a lot of ways.I'm trying to make the most of the good fortune,
(32:09):
of the blessings I do have.OF: Yes. And I follow you on social media,
and I did see that you did make an announcementabout that run across America that you will
be doing. So you are now officially, out asa person managing addiction. How was that
received by your friends and family who perhapsdidn't know the full story?
Yeah, it’s… I really had these two parallel lives, parallel existences that I
(32:33):
was living. And I was really, really nervousto embrace both sides. Because on one side,
you're lauded as this entrepreneur, athlete.And the other is this thing that you're doing
in secret, in darkness. And the days leadinginto that just felt like… I was waking up
in the middle of night, I was not able toget to bed, just really nervous. And something
(32:56):
amazing happens once you actually put it outthere, once I shared. It's an amazing thing,
where friends are calling you, texting you,messaging you. And you realise how many people
that you really care about, are also dealingwith that, and had no idea that you're dealing
with it, and you had no idea that are. AndI now feel… I've never felt better supported.
(33:17):
And to anyone listening that is dealing withstuff, my encouragement is, be open, find
that courage within yourself to share, becauseamazing things do happen. And starting on
March 16 of 2020, I'm into an amazing newchapter of my life, in part by being out and
sharing all this stuff. And it wasn't easycertainly to do that, but it's been beautiful.
OF (33:40):
Wow. You owning that story was one of the things that we talked about. And it's
just great to see you do that, having seenyou go through that process in the last year.
Maybe that's what explains that huge smileon your face today.
GN (33:53):
Hey, it's part of it, man. And again, meeting you, and our conversations, every
little milestone gives you a little bit moreconfidence and courage to own your truth.
OF (34:03):
Yes. GN
Well, look, you were already on that road. And I know that you had a coach and a therapist
who was helping you with that in the background.Keep smiling, Greg. And I'm thinking about
our interview, and I remember the things thatyou said that you would miss the most, and
miss the least, when you left China. And hereyou are, you have - at least for a year - left
(34:25):
China. You were saying that you would missthe dynamism, the energy; you wouldn't miss
the reckless 饿了么 [Èleme] drivers onthe pavements. Tell me, what actually did
you end up missing the most, and what didyou end up missing the least?
GN (34:37):
Yeah, so I have really, really missed the wonderful people that were in my life
there. You just remember the great times youhad. And there's this layer of stress that
was in my life the entire time I was in Shanghai,running a company and the stresses of all
that. But there's all these wonderful peoplethat want nothing but the best for you. And
(34:57):
you're sharing this incredibly enriching life-affirmingexperience in Shanghai. And that is I think
the thing I missed the most. Crazy 饿了么[Èleme] drivers, sleepless nights, 3am phone
calls for timezone arbitrage, and the hamster-wheelof work… Those elements are things I don't,
(35:18):
I certainly don't miss, I miss the least.And I think I'm a healthier, happier person
in this phase of my life, in the moment. AndI've really redeveloped some semblance of
balance. Being close to family means a lotto me, having beautiful nature. Those little
things, they ultimately make you who you are,and I feel really blessed to be where I am
(35:40):
today.OF: Well, it's funny that you are talking
to me on the West Coast, because we are talkingin parallel to the release of the episode
that I recorded with your referral for Season2, Alex Shoer.
Oh fantastic. OF
Coast of the U.S., in very similar circumstances,enjoying nature. Have you been in touch with
(36:01):
Alex throughout this period?GN: We have. So Alex is one of my counter-buddies.
And it's been wonderful because he's a guythat… We moved to China within a few months
of each other. We both rode the rollercoaster,the highest highs, lowest lows, everything
in between. And now we're both pivoting andtrying to reinvent what's ahead. And he's
a really, really special guy, and he's someonethat has wonderful insights. So I learn a
(36:24):
lot from him every time.OF: Wonderful. Well, that’s a lovely connection.
And it's of course great to continue to havea connection with you as well. Greg. Let’s
continue to keep in touch. I'm very proudthat you are part of this project. Don't be
a stranger, please.GN: Heck yeah. Thank you, Oscar, Godspeed.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com