December 21, 2020 • 35 mins
There are some professors who can justifiably be accused of living in their own little academic bubbles, but Professor Chang Chihyun is not one of them.
In today's episode, Chihyun talks about his experiences in the world of unversity education in China, and shares a few morsels of his knowledge of history and sinology along the way.
The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Tom BARKER from Season 01 Episode 25. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-25-tom-barker).
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
01:49 - Part 1
20:23 - Part 2
27:51 - Outro
30:10 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-03-chang-chihyun.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]CC: University bureaucracy
is probably the most useless one.OF: You can't say that!
CC (00:08):
I can say that. I'm a part of them. OF
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So you probably know by now that the way thispodcast works is that the guests of this Season
are supposed to be nominated by the guestsfrom last Season. But you might also know,
(00:32):
if you are very astute, that 2020 has been asomewhat turbulent year. And it turns out that
not everyone who said yes to this project in 2019were still keen - or even able - to do so in 2020.
This was for a number of reasons (00:45):
some of them found themselves trapped outside of China,
and decided not to come back; some of them foundtheir lives to be quite different, and no longer
felt inclined to talk about it on a podcast; andso on. So the bad news is that the link between
Season 1 and Season 2 has been broken in somecases. But the good news is that it has given me
(01:07):
the opportunity to include some new voices in thisSeason that might otherwise not have been heard.
Today’s episode is one of these new tiles in theMosaic, and there will be many more to come over
the coming weeks. Despite this breakage in thelink, I’ve also included a catch-up interview from
one of the guests of Season 1 at the end of theepisode, and in today’s show it’s with Tom Barker,
(01:30):
the New Zealand diplomat from Episode 25 oflast season. So please stick around until the
end to hear what he had to deal with in 2020. Butfirst, let’s not waste any more time and get on
with today’s interview. And you’ll hear straightaway why I haven’t mentioned his name until now.
[Part 1]OF:
(01:51):
Well, thank you Chihyun. And so I shouldgive you your proper introduction now.
Sure. So you are Chihyun… are you‘Chang’ or Zhang’, which is it?
CC (01:57):
Zhang. OF:
What’s the difference then, Zhang and Chang?CC: As a Sinologist and a historian,
I love to explain this issue. This is aboutthe alphabetical system for the pronunciation
of Chinese characters. In the 19th century,a British diplomat and Sinologist called
Thomas Wade, he actually created a universalalphabetical system for Europeans to pronounce
(02:23):
Chinese characters. So that's called theWade–Giles system, and my name is spelt in
the Wade–Giles manner. The Wade–Giles system hadbecome the global way to spell Chinese characters
till the end of the 20th century, I wouldsay. But for the Chinese people here,
they are not familiar with Wade–Giles.OF: Right. So in the 汉语拼音 [hànyǔ pīnyīn]
system you would be Zhang (02:46):
‘ZH’. CC
OF (02:49):
And in Wade–Giles, you’re ‘CH’. CC
And Taiwanese has anotheralphabetical system. I hate it.
It's called 通用拼音 [tōngyòng pīnyīn].OF: Oh right.
CC (03:02):
Yeah. And that's not a ‘CH’, it’s ’JH’. OF
Sure, please do. OF
And then before we go any further, thefirst question I want to ask you is,
what object did you bring that in someway describes your life here in China?
I brought my really crappy old watch. It's really crappy. I'm not even sure it
(03:25):
is workable today. So I brought it out,and fortunately, it is still working.
OF (03:30):
So what does that say about your life? CC
the army, the Taiwanese army. Every Taiwanese guyhas to go to the compulsory service for two years.
And if you dare to be late for oneminute, it’s martial law, it’s serious. So
(03:51):
we had to buy a watch. And there is an extremelycrappy little world map on this. And I think “I
need to get this”, because I need this watch toremind me how big the world is and how small I am.
I joined the army in 2002, and then I leftthe army in 2004. And I went to Leeds in 2004.
(04:21):
That's Leeds in the UK. CC
it in front of my desk to remind me that even I'mdoing OK in my academic life, this sort of memory
should always be remembered.OF: So does it keep you
somehow disciplined today, does it?CC: Not disciplined. To understand
(04:43):
people's difficulties. Because it's the army, soyou would meet all sorts of people, and everyone
is hopeless and helpless in some sense. So itjust reminds me of this. Everyone's success is
basically, as a historian, it’s by chance.It's simply because we're lucky. Or privileged.
(05:04):
Well, through parts of your story, you've already given hints about what you do today.
But we haven't actually said what itis. So I mean, what is your title today?
CC (05:13):
I'm a professor of international trade history in the Department of History,
School of Humanities, Shanghai JiaotongUniversity. I'm also the Assistant Dean
for International Strategy and Recruitment.OF: OK, there's a lot going on there.
Yeah. OF
the state of humanities education in China.CC: I think we are confronting a universal
(05:40):
challenge. Even in the U.S., even in Japan,humanities education is actually declining, I
have to say. It's less practical, less pragmatic,it does not help you to find a well paid job.
Education is not for becoming an enlightenedperson, it’s for you to get a better job. In
(06:07):
this country, China has a very long history forexamination, we have a very short history for
university education. So I'm fighting against theendeavour of Chinese people to get a better life.
And how can that be easy? Becauseover 600 million people's monthly
(06:29):
income is less than 1,000 Renminbi. That's onething, being pragmatic is hard. And secondly,
so if you want to be a researcher in naturalscience, it's basically laboratory research,
right? There is a very, very clear protocolfor you to do it. But if you want to become a
(06:51):
researcher in humanities, oh, that's hard. Becausewe always say that if you can read and write you
can study history and literature and philosophy.But there is no textbook to spoon-feed you
how to consolidate yourargumentation, how to make words flow.
(07:12):
That's hard. I think the biggest problem is alwaysthe joint examination for the university entry:
高考 [gāokǎo]. But I have to sayChina has to have 高考 [gāokǎo].
What my slogan is that, as a university worker,we have to undo the damage that the 高考 [gāokǎo]
(07:34):
has already done to our students.OF: Right.
To remind them, it is actually fun to study. OF
and there's nothing else in your life apart from…CC: It's only about money! It's only about the
illusion that once you get a good degree, you canbecome a millionaire. It’s… no! I’m offering them
(07:58):
the possibility to know more. And thepossibility to know more would lead to the joy.
OF (08:05):
And this is universal, this is not just in China.
CC (08:09):
Yeah, yeah yeah, it’s definitely universal. It's in the UK, too.
OF (08:13):
So when you look through your China lens, do you see anything specifically with your Chinese
students that you didn't experience elsewhere?CC: I'm teaching at Shanghai Jiaotong University.
And I asked my students “Have you read abook, from the first word to the last word?”
The percentage is pathetic,it’s less than 10. It's sad.
(08:37):
I wonder if it's that… when you were in the UK, it was ten years ago. And young people all
around the world now, they don't read.CC: Yeah, probably.
Could be, right? CC
Because I find myself, having not been used to being a student for many years,
and there's just so much reading, I feel like Iam the child that you're describing. 哎哟 [Āiyō].
(09:00):
Your attention span in the last 10 years hasshrunk, even you would admit that, right?
CC (09:03):
Yeah. But I think China definitely is more serious. Why? Because the 高考 [gāokǎo],
you don't have to read a book to get good resultsin 高考 [gāokǎo]. It’s always about the questions,
and right answers, and they don't care about howyou get your answers. And that's cheap education.
(09:25):
There's no right answer in the world. Period.OF: This is a funny thing because Jiaotong
University, where you are, it is morefamous as a scientific university…
Engineering, not scientific. OF
right. So you being in the humanities departmentof that particular university, how do you feel
that your status is in that university?CC: Fortunately, this university is very
(09:47):
ambitious, it wants to be a ChineseMIT, Massachusetts Institute of
Technology. Since they have this sort of ambition,
they need a humanities sector. Although theydon't care, they don't understand. So I have to
use their logic to convince them.OF: Yeah, that's an interesting skill,
(10:10):
which I think not everyone in academia has. Inmy career, I would work one day with a bank,
the next day with pharmaceuticals, the nextday with fashion, so I'm used to dealing with
different types of decision makers. But my senseis that, even though these are often the seats of
learning where you're supposed to be thinkingabout big things and be very open, I find the
(10:31):
administration to be extremely conservative.CC: I think university bureaucracy is
probably the most useless one.OF: You can't say that!
I can say that, I'm a part of them. OF
Why? Because academics are the worst group of people to manage. They’re smart.
(10:56):
They are critical, because we are trained tobe critical. And we like to argue everything.
And the worst thing is, we think we are smart.And apparently, most of the time we're not.
And protected by tenures.
You can't fire their arse. You can't raise theirsalary. You can't just say, OK, 50% of your bonus
(11:25):
is off. No, you can't do that!OF: So your point is,
you have to have very strict conservative rules,because otherwise, every one of these teachers
will find a chink in the armour. Right?CC: Yeah. And to administer a university is
about zoology, right?OF: Mm hmm. So when you are
dealing with the administration - not as one ofthem, but as someone who wants to push forward
(11:49):
with your agenda - and you were saying that youknow how to speak the language of the engineers…
Yeah. OF
give an example? Like, when did you last usethat tactic to try and push things forward?
Right. They believe in math. You like math? I give you the numbers.
OF (12:07):
Yeah. CC
I just asked one of our pro Vice-Chancellors,if you want to get one SCI - Scientific Citation
Index - journal article, you need to buy severalsets of machines. You have to hire technicians,
you have to have a corresponding author. If youwant to publish one paper, one journal article,
(12:31):
you have to spend, say, half a million Renminbi.OF: And that's the currency they look for,
it’s how many citations you can get.CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you invest in us,
you're not going to buy any set of machines.And you're not going to hire a lot of people.
And you can get journal articles. And so theinvestment is like 2,000 Renminbi. Why not?
(12:54):
Cheap. CC
it should be cheap. Cheap to me, for humanities,is a good thing. Not in quality, in price.
Yeah. CC
every corner of the world without a high cost.OF: What is your agenda then?
CC (13:15):
I arrived in China 2013. I always think I'm Chinese. My parents were born in China
before 1949. I came here - I liked my UKlife, I have to say, it’s… I liked it very
much - but if I did not come to China, 10 yearslater I wouldn't. So I thought, OK, let's try.
(13:43):
And after two years, I started tothink “Ah, everything is so different.
It’s simply different”. And I'm a curious person.I like to know how to work everything out.
And China is the place filled withall sorts of obstacles to overcome.
(14:07):
And that's just interesting.OF: Yeah. And that's what keeps
you here, I suppose.CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (14:12):
Well, let's talk about what you do. And I should now come clean,
and admit that actually, the reason Iknow you is because you are my professor.
CC (14:20):
Mm hmm. OF
Masters of Modern China Studies at JiaotongUniversity, and you are my course leader.
Yes. OF
China history, how do you characterise it?CC: I would say it is filled with a lot of
controversies. Right now, I wouldn't say it is thebest time for historians. Yeah. But it is still
(14:46):
important, the so-called Century of Humiliation.OF: Well, when we've discussed this in the past,
you said one of the things that maybe wecould talk about in terms of the debate
would be the 乾隆 [Qiánlóng] Emperor.CC: Yes.
OF (14:59):
What is the debate about him? CC
at the end of the 18th century,could have the opportunity
to open China up. The 乾隆 [Qiánlóng] Emperor’sanswer is, the short answer, is “No, bugger off!
We have ruled ourselves perfectly for thousandsof years. Consider your history, 1,000 years ago,
(15:22):
you were just a bunch of monkeys jumping on thetree!” Actually, think about Robin Hood, right?
[Laughter] CC
And it's funny because you see people like that today, of course, in China.
CC (15:35):
Yes. OF
they have this long history, in a way thatis “OK, well, I can justify my superiority
because there is this line back to X B.C.”CC: It is completely ********. As a historian.
Most of the Chinese people's historical knowledgeis little, they simply know several very
(16:00):
prosperous dynasties and days. It’s not history.OF: In their defence, when I think about
my education in English history, wenever concentrated on the failures,
we always looked at how great we were, in terms ofthe wars that we had won. So I wonder if it's just
what happens with education systems.CC: Yeah, I think that's universal as well.
OF (16:22):
The thing about China is that it specifically focuses on the uninterrupted culture that you can
stretch back to before the Common Era. So how doyou even define what China is, right? Because who…
CC (16:35):
Great question. OF
China - to me, it's my personal historical understanding - is an empire,
it’s not a nation state. If you want tobe a Chinese, everyone can be a Chinese
in our understanding. As long as you like theculture, you like the way we think, you like
(16:57):
the flexibility and the grey zone of our culture,you can be a Chinese. So that's another very
interesting thing. So Vietnamese, Koreans andJapanese people used to think they were ‘Real
China’ for a long period of time. Because in theireyes, the Manchus were not Chinese, because they
(17:21):
did not respect Chinese culture and tradition.OF: Right. Because, just for anyone who doesn't
know, the last Empire, the Qing Empire, theywere not Han Chinese, they were Manchurian.
Yes. OF
study of Sinology. It's the China that exists inpeople's heads at various points in history. And
it's not really always about China itself, right?CC: No, let me tell you, the whole world is
(17:46):
interested in China, and didn't really understandwhat's going on there. So when we study Sinology,
the first thing we confront is that, why wouldthat particular group of people examine China
from that perspective? It is a study plan or studyblueprint - since the Medieval era all the way
(18:10):
down to today - about how they want to use Chinato understand what they are really interested in.
OF (18:19):
Yeah, exactly. It's like a mirror to reflect what they're thinking about their own societies.
CC (18:25):
But I think I use another interesting word: it’s a piñata. For you to achieve your political,
religious, philosophical, economic, whatsoevergoal. Donald Trump is the best example.
He is creating a lot of very interestingstories. I say “Yeah, China is not perfect,
but it's not as imperfect as what you just said.”OF: I mean, it's fascinating. And I'm looking at
(18:52):
your watch, the object that you brought, andI can see a kind of linear progression from
being in the army in Taiwan, then studying, thenbecoming a professor. Was that always meant to be?
Like, you had always been a professor in waiting?CC: No. I am the black sheep in my family. I was
(19:12):
never a good student. Since day one. I wasextremely unsuccessful in my college life.
I was… I actually opened a bar, involving localunion and factions and probably gangs. Those
sort of different things.OF: Did you say gangs?
(19:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
the gangs element then, because this is where Ithink you have an interesting background now for
somebody who is a professor today.CC: Yeah, I think I understand the
Taiwanese underworld quite a lot.OF: Oh, you do?
I do. Yeah. I experienced that. It's always involving a lot of liquor, a lot of
(19:53):
pretty women and a lot of drunken guys. And cash.OF: I can see how that would have given you some
of the skills that you use now.CC: Yes! It’s exactly the same,
how I deal with my vice-chancellorsand pro vice-chancellors…
Powerful guys are all the same.OF:
(20:16):
Chihyun, thank you so much.CC: OK.
OF (20:18):
OK well let's move on to Part 2. CC
[Part 2]OF:
Are you ready?CC: I’ll try my best.
OK, what is your favourite China related fact? CC
the variety in China is little.Because I know it is diverse,
(20:39):
but it's 1.4 billion people. And the scale isas big as continental Europe. So it should be
as diverse, but the truth is it’s not. Yeah.OF: OK, well that should raise some questions,
because I think some people would argue with that.CC: Yeah, definitely,
please, yeah.OF: Question two,
do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?CC: Yeah. Especially in mainland Chinese,
(21:03):
there are a lot of terms that we don't usein Taiwan. 给力 [gěilì], ‘to give power’,
and 过硬 [guòyìng], ‘it’s over hard’.And the first time I heard this,
I simply don't understand. But it's so vivid.OF: Okay, let’s unpick that, so what does
it actually mean then, in what context?CC: 奥斯卡，给点力吧 [Àosīkǎ, gěidiǎn lì ba], do
(21:26):
the homework better, for God's sake, 给力 [gěilì].OF: Oh, right. So is it like a 加油 [jiāyóu], is it?
CC (21:31):
Yeah, yeah. But it's more rough. OF
You can see I'm quite a rough person, right? OF
it separately, so 过 [guò] is ‘toomuch’, and then 硬 [yìng] is like…
Hard. OF
Yeah. OF
It's too stiff. But it means ‘really, really high standard'.
OF (21:52):
Okay. CC
So give me an example. CC
your academic achievement should be 过硬 [guòyìng].OF: How funny. What is your favourite
destination within China?CC: I would say Shanghai.
OK. CC
Yeah. CC
Right. CC
(22:15):
So the Shanghainese are actually thecombination of Ningbo-nese and Suzhou-nese.
And then all the foreign influences on top. CC
Shanghainese collect a lot of Westernlanguages like: “laokala”: it means an
old gentleman who knows how to enjoy his petitbourgeois life. “Kala” means ‘white collar’.
(22:36):
Oh ‘collar’, how funny. CC
“xiaolaji”, ‘xiao’ is ‘little’, ‘laji’means ‘undisciplined woman’, it’s… But
anyway, ‘laji’ is ‘laissez faire’.OF: Oh, right. How funny.
CC (22:53):
So it's from French and English. OF
immigrants, everyone here, from day one…CC: Yeah, no-one can claim that
“I am a real local Shanghainese”. No.OF: OK, next question. If you left
Mainland China, what would you miss the most? And
what would you miss the least?CC: I would miss the culture.
(23:15):
That's an abstract thing. You can seeI'm quite westernised. The way I think,
the wine, the scotch, whatsoever. But I still liketo live this sort of cultural context. I wouldn't
miss the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy of Chinais interesting, it can be extremely efficient,
(23:39):
and it can be extremely outdated and slow.OF: Yeah.
At the same time. OF
still surprises you about life in mainland China?CC: Oh, yeah, definitely. OK, let me put it this
way, using university education. We know thatfor the past 20 years, Chinese universities
(24:01):
are forcing university lecturers andworkers to publish academic papers
or journal articles. When we evaluate ourcolleagues, they still use how many papers
you have published. Oh my god, yeah.OF: Yes. So it engenders a
society which follows these KPIs.CC: Yeah, because China is gigantic.
(24:26):
So it's understandable when we need to managethis country, and this scale of people,
or universities, through a very quantitativeway. But I am a person who is in charge of
evaluating people's talents. Every day, I haveto recruit foreign talents. I don't believe in
(24:50):
quantitative standards, because it's impossible.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?CC: I still like my petit bourgeois
French Concession nightlife. The bars,the cafes, the western restaurants
are the best in China. There's no comparison.OF: And do you have one particular
(25:12):
place that jumps out?CC: There's great Spanish cuisine
on Panyu Road. They have a great
gin & tonic selection, that’s the best.OF: OK, I'm going to mysteriously say “yes,
I have been to that Spanish place on 番禺路[Pānyú Lù]”. And I will also not name it.
Yeah. OF
(25:33):
best or worst purchase you have recently made?CC: Oh my god, I can tell you the best. It's
just happened four days ago. A butchery,a Swiss butchery, a western butchery.
I used to have my favourite butchery on五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù]. But that butchery closed,
and I was pissed off. I finally found agood one. A proper butchery. I'm very happy.
OF (25:58):
Well done. I know where it is too, it's just down my street.
CC (26:02):
Yeah. OF
Okay, what's going on here?CC: I love to use myself
to create WeChat stickers.OF: OK, and what does it say? It says…
Over my dead body. And I am the body. OF
(26:26):
No. OF:
What is your favourite song to sing at KTV?CC: I have a really good knowledge about
Taiwanese gangster songs. So I sing allthe Taiwanese gangster songs. For example,
one song is ‘Being Lonely’. It's not thatsort of romantic ‘being lonely’, it’s
how he works alone, his criminal life, by himself.OF: And it's sung in the Taiwanese dialect?
(26:53):
Yeah. OF
孤單 [Gūdān]. OF
you've shown us a really amazing window, Chihyun,thank you so much for sharing that with me.
My pleasure. OF
the last thing I'd ask everyone in that chair is,for the next season of Mosaic of China, Season 3,
who would you recommend that I interview next?CC: I have a friend
(27:16):
who is very interesting. His name is Sun Yang.
He is the best Balkan specialist…OF: Balkan, so you mean like Serbia,
Croatia, that area?CC: Yeah.
OF (27:27):
Right. CC
in the UK, in the U.S., in the whole Westernworld, I think his knowledge of the Balkans
is the most distinctive.OF: Wow, that's not the
kind of person I would have imagined ona Mosaic of China podcast, but I love it.
CC (27:44):
Yeah, you should talk to him. OF
you so much Chihyun.CC: No problem.
[Outro]OF:
Well there you have it, there are some professorswho can justifiably be accused of living in their
own little academic bubbles, but ProfessorChang is not one of them. Sadly that doesn’t
mean that he isn’t still quite strict whenhe needs to be. He knows, for example,
(28:05):
that I should be writing my thesis right now,rather than releasing this episode, which is
one of the reasons why this will be the last oneof 2020, and we’ll be back again in the new year.
In case you would like to get yourself a Christmaspresent before then, now is the time to remind
you about the PREMIUM version of the podcast,which includes an average of 15 extra minutes
per episode. Here are some clips of what youcan hear there from today’s conversation.
(28:29):
[Clip 1]CC: I was a sort of
bodyguard for a gentlemen's club.OF: Oh right.
Yeah. [Clip 2]
So they used China as the bad example, not like what Voltaire did in the early 18th century.
[Clip 3]CC: 我是老师 [Wǒ shì lǎoshī].
OF (28:51):
Yeah, that means ‘I'm a teacher’. CC
OK. [Clip 4]
CC (28:56):
You are going to suffer, mate. [Clip 5]
I know there are a lot of restrictions and limitations, but trust me,
I have gone through the restrictionsin the late 80s. It's exactly the same.
OF (29:11):
In Taiwan, right? CC
[Clip 6]CC: It’s a gigantic cluster**** with
Chinese characteristics, for ****’s sake.[End of Audio Clips]
Please head to https://mosaicofchina.comfor information on how to subscribe,
and in the meantime add us on @mosaicofchina- on Instagram, Facebook or WeChat - to follow
the images from the series. Today’s includeChihyun and his object, the watch from his
(29:33):
days in the Taiwanese army; a photo of himfrom those days; and a whole bunch of others.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a shortened version of my catch-upinterview with Tom Barker from Episode 25 of
Season 01 - there’s a longer version of this alsoavailable in the PREMIUM version of the show - and
(29:54):
I’ll see you again in January. Here’s hoping2021 will be a little less eventful than 2020.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Tom.Tom Barker: Hi, how are you?
I'm well. All the better to see you. TB
(30:19):
Well, I think with all of these update chats I'm doing, it's been at
least a year since we did the recording, right?TB: That’s right. Probably a little bit over,
maybe a year and a half.OF: Yes. Well, first of all,
so you are at the forefront of what was happeningduring the early days of Coronavirus because you,
of course, work in the New Zealand consulate.TB: That's right. So, yeah, it was a really weird,
(30:41):
crazy time. I was in New Zealand on holiday forour summer holiday in January. And I flew back in,
the day before Chinese New Year, which Ithink was also roughly the same day that
Wuhan sort of went into full lockdown, or possiblythe day after it went into full lockdown. And wow,
what a crazy year since!OF: God, yeah.
TB (31:00):
We arrived back, we had almost immediately an evacuation flight that we had to organise from the
consulate, to get all the New Zealanders in Wuhanout. And we did it from here, because obviously
we're a little bit closer from Shanghai. And weteamed up with our cousins, the Australians, who
cover Wuhan in their jurisdiction.OF: Of course, things changed,
and then things started to normalisein China pretty quickly right?
(31:24):
It did. I mean, ironically for me, the normalisation actually made me more busy.
So, you know, the New Zealand Consulate’svery small - we’ve made jokes about that
in the past - we got much smaller. We evacuatedall non-essential staff, so we went down to two
New Zealanders in the post. And then my boss, theConsul General, went back to New Zealand. That was
(31:48):
about late March. And so for a very long period,it was just me alone in the post. But honestly,
it felt like I was the only Kiwi in Shanghai.OF: Well, because you would have been just in
that place by yourself, handling everything.TB: Yep, I was rolling around in a very large
office, pretty much on my own. Evenour local staff weren't coming in.
(32:09):
So we had maybe, tops, one otherperson in the office with me.
People still weren't travelling into thecity as much. And so I'd have these wonderful
cycles into work, and I'd pass no-one. And thenI remember once in late April, getting passed
by four cars and being deeply offended by it.OF: Yeah. And here we are now, it's early 2021.
(32:31):
And what is the situation like these days,then, especially personally? So you have a
fully-staffed team now again, do you?TB: So I have an almost fully-staffed
team. I still have no Consul General,so I'm still the Acting Consul General.
That will change hopefully very soon.OF: And I'm thinking back to our episode,
and we had a discussion about Confucianism.And it was about how the Chinese have
(32:55):
kept the discipline side of Confucianism. And I'mwondering whether that was part of what explained
how China was able to cope with this so well.TB: It could be. I honestly don't have
a particularly good story to tell around howsome countries managed to do really well,
and others didn't. I mean, it’s not a story ofa particular philosophy. I think it's a story
(33:17):
of whether people believe their government,have trust in their government, and whether
they have trust in the scientific process thatthe government uses to inform decision-making.
OF (33:25):
Yeah. TB
it's been immensely rewarding.OF: Right. Because I guess there'd
be times when you would scratch your headand say “What good have I done today?”
But this is not one of those times, right?TB: Yeah, it was definitely a moment where you
can go home from work most days, and I'd be ableto actually look back and, you know, there’d be
tangible things you've managed to achieve. Or ifyou haven't achieved it, you're making progress in
(33:45):
the right direction. As compared to most of mylife where you look back and go “Did that long
bit of paper I wrote, or did those five messages Isent actually make any difference in the universe?
Or am I just filling up the world with more junk?”OF: Well, this hasn't been junk. I really
appreciated it, Tom. It's good to know that thereare people like you who have been helping. And,
(34:06):
you know, you started off this conversationby saying how stressed you've been,
and I think people would be very gratefulfor the work that you've been doing. Well,
COVID has changed a lot of things, and one ofthem was the fact that the person you referred
could no longer participate in the next season.But I found a good replacement. So I hope that
there will still be some kind of connectionbetween you and the future series of Mosaic
(34:29):
of China. I was always really gratefulthat you participated in this project,
and I hope that we can continue to stay in touch.TB: Oh very much so. I mean, I'll always be
listening. So at the very least, there'llbe that. But hopefully we can do more.
Thanks so much, Tom. TB
[Trailer]CC: University bureaucracy
is probably the most useless one.OF: You can't say that!
CC (00:08):
I can say that. I'm a part of them. OF
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So you probably know by now that the way thispodcast works is that the guests of this Season
are supposed to be nominated by the guestsfrom last Season. But you might also know,
(00:32):
if you are very astute, that 2020 has been asomewhat turbulent year. And it turns out that
not everyone who said yes to this project in 2019were still keen - or even able - to do so in 2020.
This was for a number of reasons (00:45):
some of them found themselves trapped outside of China,
and decided not to come back; some of them foundtheir lives to be quite different, and no longer
felt inclined to talk about it on a podcast; andso on. So the bad news is that the link between
Season 1 and Season 2 has been broken in somecases. But the good news is that it has given me
(01:07):
the opportunity to include some new voices in thisSeason that might otherwise not have been heard.
Today’s episode is one of these new tiles in theMosaic, and there will be many more to come over
the coming weeks. Despite this breakage in thelink, I’ve also included a catch-up interview from
one of the guests of Season 1 at the end of theepisode, and in today’s show it’s with Tom Barker,
(01:30):
the New Zealand diplomat from Episode 25 oflast season. So please stick around until the
end to hear what he had to deal with in 2020. Butfirst, let’s not waste any more time and get on
with today’s interview. And you’ll hear straightaway why I haven’t mentioned his name until now.
[Part 1]OF:
(01:51):
Well, thank you Chihyun. And so I shouldgive you your proper introduction now.
Sure. So you are Chihyun… are you‘Chang’ or Zhang’, which is it?
CC (01:57):
Zhang. OF:
What’s the difference then, Zhang and Chang?CC: As a Sinologist and a historian,
I love to explain this issue. This is aboutthe alphabetical system for the pronunciation
of Chinese characters. In the 19th century,a British diplomat and Sinologist called
Thomas Wade, he actually created a universalalphabetical system for Europeans to pronounce
(02:23):
Chinese characters. So that's called theWade–Giles system, and my name is spelt in
the Wade–Giles manner. The Wade–Giles system hadbecome the global way to spell Chinese characters
till the end of the 20th century, I wouldsay. But for the Chinese people here,
they are not familiar with Wade–Giles.OF: Right. So in the 汉语拼音 [hànyǔ pīnyīn]
system you would be Zhang (02:46):
‘ZH’. CC
OF (02:49):
And in Wade–Giles, you’re ‘CH’. CC
And Taiwanese has anotheralphabetical system. I hate it.
It's called 通用拼音 [tōngyòng pīnyīn].OF: Oh right.
CC (03:02):
Yeah. And that's not a ‘CH’, it’s ’JH’. OF
Sure, please do. OF
And then before we go any further, thefirst question I want to ask you is,
what object did you bring that in someway describes your life here in China?
I brought my really crappy old watch. It's really crappy. I'm not even sure it
(03:25):
is workable today. So I brought it out,and fortunately, it is still working.
OF (03:30):
So what does that say about your life? CC
the army, the Taiwanese army. Every Taiwanese guyhas to go to the compulsory service for two years.
And if you dare to be late for oneminute, it’s martial law, it’s serious. So
(03:51):
we had to buy a watch. And there is an extremelycrappy little world map on this. And I think “I
need to get this”, because I need this watch toremind me how big the world is and how small I am.
I joined the army in 2002, and then I leftthe army in 2004. And I went to Leeds in 2004.
(04:21):
That's Leeds in the UK. CC
it in front of my desk to remind me that even I'mdoing OK in my academic life, this sort of memory
should always be remembered.OF: So does it keep you
somehow disciplined today, does it?CC: Not disciplined. To understand
(04:43):
people's difficulties. Because it's the army, soyou would meet all sorts of people, and everyone
is hopeless and helpless in some sense. So itjust reminds me of this. Everyone's success is
basically, as a historian, it’s by chance.It's simply because we're lucky. Or privileged.
(05:04):
Well, through parts of your story, you've already given hints about what you do today.
But we haven't actually said what itis. So I mean, what is your title today?
CC (05:13):
I'm a professor of international trade history in the Department of History,
School of Humanities, Shanghai JiaotongUniversity. I'm also the Assistant Dean
for International Strategy and Recruitment.OF: OK, there's a lot going on there.
Yeah. OF
the state of humanities education in China.CC: I think we are confronting a universal
(05:40):
challenge. Even in the U.S., even in Japan,humanities education is actually declining, I
have to say. It's less practical, less pragmatic,it does not help you to find a well paid job.
Education is not for becoming an enlightenedperson, it’s for you to get a better job. In
(06:07):
this country, China has a very long history forexamination, we have a very short history for
university education. So I'm fighting against theendeavour of Chinese people to get a better life.
And how can that be easy? Becauseover 600 million people's monthly
(06:29):
income is less than 1,000 Renminbi. That's onething, being pragmatic is hard. And secondly,
so if you want to be a researcher in naturalscience, it's basically laboratory research,
right? There is a very, very clear protocolfor you to do it. But if you want to become a
(06:51):
researcher in humanities, oh, that's hard. Becausewe always say that if you can read and write you
can study history and literature and philosophy.But there is no textbook to spoon-feed you
how to consolidate yourargumentation, how to make words flow.
(07:12):
That's hard. I think the biggest problem is alwaysthe joint examination for the university entry:
高考 [gāokǎo]. But I have to sayChina has to have 高考 [gāokǎo].
What my slogan is that, as a university worker,we have to undo the damage that the 高考 [gāokǎo]
(07:34):
has already done to our students.OF: Right.
To remind them, it is actually fun to study. OF
and there's nothing else in your life apart from…CC: It's only about money! It's only about the
illusion that once you get a good degree, you canbecome a millionaire. It’s… no! I’m offering them
(07:58):
the possibility to know more. And thepossibility to know more would lead to the joy.
OF (08:05):
And this is universal, this is not just in China.
CC (08:09):
Yeah, yeah yeah, it’s definitely universal. It's in the UK, too.
OF (08:13):
So when you look through your China lens, do you see anything specifically with your Chinese
students that you didn't experience elsewhere?CC: I'm teaching at Shanghai Jiaotong University.
And I asked my students “Have you read abook, from the first word to the last word?”
The percentage is pathetic,it’s less than 10. It's sad.
(08:37):
I wonder if it's that… when you were in the UK, it was ten years ago. And young people all
around the world now, they don't read.CC: Yeah, probably.
Could be, right? CC
Because I find myself, having not been used to being a student for many years,
and there's just so much reading, I feel like Iam the child that you're describing. 哎哟 [Āiyō].
(09:00):
Your attention span in the last 10 years hasshrunk, even you would admit that, right?
CC (09:03):
Yeah. But I think China definitely is more serious. Why? Because the 高考 [gāokǎo],
you don't have to read a book to get good resultsin 高考 [gāokǎo]. It’s always about the questions,
and right answers, and they don't care about howyou get your answers. And that's cheap education.
(09:25):
There's no right answer in the world. Period.OF: This is a funny thing because Jiaotong
University, where you are, it is morefamous as a scientific university…
Engineering, not scientific. OF
right. So you being in the humanities departmentof that particular university, how do you feel
that your status is in that university?CC: Fortunately, this university is very
(09:47):
ambitious, it wants to be a ChineseMIT, Massachusetts Institute of
Technology. Since they have this sort of ambition,
they need a humanities sector. Although theydon't care, they don't understand. So I have to
use their logic to convince them.OF: Yeah, that's an interesting skill,
(10:10):
which I think not everyone in academia has. Inmy career, I would work one day with a bank,
the next day with pharmaceuticals, the nextday with fashion, so I'm used to dealing with
different types of decision makers. But my senseis that, even though these are often the seats of
learning where you're supposed to be thinkingabout big things and be very open, I find the
(10:31):
administration to be extremely conservative.CC: I think university bureaucracy is
probably the most useless one.OF: You can't say that!
I can say that, I'm a part of them. OF
Why? Because academics are the worst group of people to manage. They’re smart.
(10:56):
They are critical, because we are trained tobe critical. And we like to argue everything.
And the worst thing is, we think we are smart.And apparently, most of the time we're not.
And protected by tenures.
You can't fire their arse. You can't raise theirsalary. You can't just say, OK, 50% of your bonus
(11:25):
is off. No, you can't do that!OF: So your point is,
you have to have very strict conservative rules,because otherwise, every one of these teachers
will find a chink in the armour. Right?CC: Yeah. And to administer a university is
about zoology, right?OF: Mm hmm. So when you are
dealing with the administration - not as one ofthem, but as someone who wants to push forward
(11:49):
with your agenda - and you were saying that youknow how to speak the language of the engineers…
Yeah. OF
give an example? Like, when did you last usethat tactic to try and push things forward?
Right. They believe in math. You like math? I give you the numbers.
OF (12:07):
Yeah. CC
I just asked one of our pro Vice-Chancellors,if you want to get one SCI - Scientific Citation
Index - journal article, you need to buy severalsets of machines. You have to hire technicians,
you have to have a corresponding author. If youwant to publish one paper, one journal article,
(12:31):
you have to spend, say, half a million Renminbi.OF: And that's the currency they look for,
it’s how many citations you can get.CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you invest in us,
you're not going to buy any set of machines.And you're not going to hire a lot of people.
And you can get journal articles. And so theinvestment is like 2,000 Renminbi. Why not?
(12:54):
Cheap. CC
it should be cheap. Cheap to me, for humanities,is a good thing. Not in quality, in price.
Yeah. CC
every corner of the world without a high cost.OF: What is your agenda then?
CC (13:15):
I arrived in China 2013. I always think I'm Chinese. My parents were born in China
before 1949. I came here - I liked my UKlife, I have to say, it’s… I liked it very
much - but if I did not come to China, 10 yearslater I wouldn't. So I thought, OK, let's try.
(13:43):
And after two years, I started tothink “Ah, everything is so different.
It’s simply different”. And I'm a curious person.I like to know how to work everything out.
And China is the place filled withall sorts of obstacles to overcome.
(14:07):
And that's just interesting.OF: Yeah. And that's what keeps
you here, I suppose.CC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (14:12):
Well, let's talk about what you do. And I should now come clean,
and admit that actually, the reason Iknow you is because you are my professor.
CC (14:20):
Mm hmm. OF
Masters of Modern China Studies at JiaotongUniversity, and you are my course leader.
Yes. OF
China history, how do you characterise it?CC: I would say it is filled with a lot of
controversies. Right now, I wouldn't say it is thebest time for historians. Yeah. But it is still
(14:46):
important, the so-called Century of Humiliation.OF: Well, when we've discussed this in the past,
you said one of the things that maybe wecould talk about in terms of the debate
would be the 乾隆 [Qiánlóng] Emperor.CC: Yes.
OF (14:59):
What is the debate about him? CC
at the end of the 18th century,could have the opportunity
to open China up. The 乾隆 [Qiánlóng] Emperor’sanswer is, the short answer, is “No, bugger off!
We have ruled ourselves perfectly for thousandsof years. Consider your history, 1,000 years ago,
(15:22):
you were just a bunch of monkeys jumping on thetree!” Actually, think about Robin Hood, right?
[Laughter] CC
And it's funny because you see people like that today, of course, in China.
CC (15:35):
Yes. OF
they have this long history, in a way thatis “OK, well, I can justify my superiority
because there is this line back to X B.C.”CC: It is completely ********. As a historian.
Most of the Chinese people's historical knowledgeis little, they simply know several very
(16:00):
prosperous dynasties and days. It’s not history.OF: In their defence, when I think about
my education in English history, wenever concentrated on the failures,
we always looked at how great we were, in terms ofthe wars that we had won. So I wonder if it's just
what happens with education systems.CC: Yeah, I think that's universal as well.
OF (16:22):
The thing about China is that it specifically focuses on the uninterrupted culture that you can
stretch back to before the Common Era. So how doyou even define what China is, right? Because who…
CC (16:35):
Great question. OF
China - to me, it's my personal historical understanding - is an empire,
it’s not a nation state. If you want tobe a Chinese, everyone can be a Chinese
in our understanding. As long as you like theculture, you like the way we think, you like
(16:57):
the flexibility and the grey zone of our culture,you can be a Chinese. So that's another very
interesting thing. So Vietnamese, Koreans andJapanese people used to think they were ‘Real
China’ for a long period of time. Because in theireyes, the Manchus were not Chinese, because they
(17:21):
did not respect Chinese culture and tradition.OF: Right. Because, just for anyone who doesn't
know, the last Empire, the Qing Empire, theywere not Han Chinese, they were Manchurian.
Yes. OF
study of Sinology. It's the China that exists inpeople's heads at various points in history. And
it's not really always about China itself, right?CC: No, let me tell you, the whole world is
(17:46):
interested in China, and didn't really understandwhat's going on there. So when we study Sinology,
the first thing we confront is that, why wouldthat particular group of people examine China
from that perspective? It is a study plan or studyblueprint - since the Medieval era all the way
(18:10):
down to today - about how they want to use Chinato understand what they are really interested in.
OF (18:19):
Yeah, exactly. It's like a mirror to reflect what they're thinking about their own societies.
CC (18:25):
But I think I use another interesting word: it’s a piñata. For you to achieve your political,
religious, philosophical, economic, whatsoevergoal. Donald Trump is the best example.
He is creating a lot of very interestingstories. I say “Yeah, China is not perfect,
but it's not as imperfect as what you just said.”OF: I mean, it's fascinating. And I'm looking at
(18:52):
your watch, the object that you brought, andI can see a kind of linear progression from
being in the army in Taiwan, then studying, thenbecoming a professor. Was that always meant to be?
Like, you had always been a professor in waiting?CC: No. I am the black sheep in my family. I was
(19:12):
never a good student. Since day one. I wasextremely unsuccessful in my college life.
I was… I actually opened a bar, involving localunion and factions and probably gangs. Those
sort of different things.OF: Did you say gangs?
(19:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OF
the gangs element then, because this is where Ithink you have an interesting background now for
somebody who is a professor today.CC: Yeah, I think I understand the
Taiwanese underworld quite a lot.OF: Oh, you do?
I do. Yeah. I experienced that. It's always involving a lot of liquor, a lot of
(19:53):
pretty women and a lot of drunken guys. And cash.OF: I can see how that would have given you some
of the skills that you use now.CC: Yes! It’s exactly the same,
how I deal with my vice-chancellorsand pro vice-chancellors…
Powerful guys are all the same.OF:
(20:16):
Chihyun, thank you so much.CC: OK.
OF (20:18):
OK well let's move on to Part 2. CC
[Part 2]OF:
Are you ready?CC: I’ll try my best.
OK, what is your favourite China related fact? CC
the variety in China is little.Because I know it is diverse,
(20:39):
but it's 1.4 billion people. And the scale isas big as continental Europe. So it should be
as diverse, but the truth is it’s not. Yeah.OF: OK, well that should raise some questions,
because I think some people would argue with that.CC: Yeah, definitely,
please, yeah.OF: Question two,
do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?CC: Yeah. Especially in mainland Chinese,
(21:03):
there are a lot of terms that we don't usein Taiwan. 给力 [gěilì], ‘to give power’,
and 过硬 [guòyìng], ‘it’s over hard’.And the first time I heard this,
I simply don't understand. But it's so vivid.OF: Okay, let’s unpick that, so what does
it actually mean then, in what context?CC: 奥斯卡，给点力吧 [Àosīkǎ, gěidiǎn lì ba], do
(21:26):
the homework better, for God's sake, 给力 [gěilì].OF: Oh, right. So is it like a 加油 [jiāyóu], is it?
CC (21:31):
Yeah, yeah. But it's more rough. OF
You can see I'm quite a rough person, right? OF
it separately, so 过 [guò] is ‘toomuch’, and then 硬 [yìng] is like…
Hard. OF
Yeah. OF
It's too stiff. But it means ‘really, really high standard'.
OF (21:52):
Okay. CC
So give me an example. CC
your academic achievement should be 过硬 [guòyìng].OF: How funny. What is your favourite
destination within China?CC: I would say Shanghai.
OK. CC
Yeah. CC
Right. CC
(22:15):
So the Shanghainese are actually thecombination of Ningbo-nese and Suzhou-nese.
And then all the foreign influences on top. CC
Shanghainese collect a lot of Westernlanguages like: “laokala”: it means an
old gentleman who knows how to enjoy his petitbourgeois life. “Kala” means ‘white collar’.
(22:36):
Oh ‘collar’, how funny. CC
“xiaolaji”, ‘xiao’ is ‘little’, ‘laji’means ‘undisciplined woman’, it’s… But
anyway, ‘laji’ is ‘laissez faire’.OF: Oh, right. How funny.
CC (22:53):
So it's from French and English. OF
immigrants, everyone here, from day one…CC: Yeah, no-one can claim that
“I am a real local Shanghainese”. No.OF: OK, next question. If you left
Mainland China, what would you miss the most? And
what would you miss the least?CC: I would miss the culture.
(23:15):
That's an abstract thing. You can seeI'm quite westernised. The way I think,
the wine, the scotch, whatsoever. But I still liketo live this sort of cultural context. I wouldn't
miss the bureaucracy. The bureaucracy of Chinais interesting, it can be extremely efficient,
(23:39):
and it can be extremely outdated and slow.OF: Yeah.
At the same time. OF
still surprises you about life in mainland China?CC: Oh, yeah, definitely. OK, let me put it this
way, using university education. We know thatfor the past 20 years, Chinese universities
(24:01):
are forcing university lecturers andworkers to publish academic papers
or journal articles. When we evaluate ourcolleagues, they still use how many papers
you have published. Oh my god, yeah.OF: Yes. So it engenders a
society which follows these KPIs.CC: Yeah, because China is gigantic.
(24:26):
So it's understandable when we need to managethis country, and this scale of people,
or universities, through a very quantitativeway. But I am a person who is in charge of
evaluating people's talents. Every day, I haveto recruit foreign talents. I don't believe in
(24:50):
quantitative standards, because it's impossible.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?CC: I still like my petit bourgeois
French Concession nightlife. The bars,the cafes, the western restaurants
are the best in China. There's no comparison.OF: And do you have one particular
(25:12):
place that jumps out?CC: There's great Spanish cuisine
on Panyu Road. They have a great
gin & tonic selection, that’s the best.OF: OK, I'm going to mysteriously say “yes,
I have been to that Spanish place on 番禺路[Pānyú Lù]”. And I will also not name it.
Yeah. OF
(25:33):
best or worst purchase you have recently made?CC: Oh my god, I can tell you the best. It's
just happened four days ago. A butchery,a Swiss butchery, a western butchery.
I used to have my favourite butchery on五原路 [Wǔyuán Lù]. But that butchery closed,
and I was pissed off. I finally found agood one. A proper butchery. I'm very happy.
OF (25:58):
Well done. I know where it is too, it's just down my street.
CC (26:02):
Yeah. OF
Okay, what's going on here?CC: I love to use myself
to create WeChat stickers.OF: OK, and what does it say? It says…
Over my dead body. And I am the body. OF
(26:26):
No. OF:
What is your favourite song to sing at KTV?CC: I have a really good knowledge about
Taiwanese gangster songs. So I sing allthe Taiwanese gangster songs. For example,
one song is ‘Being Lonely’. It's not thatsort of romantic ‘being lonely’, it’s
how he works alone, his criminal life, by himself.OF: And it's sung in the Taiwanese dialect?
(26:53):
Yeah. OF
孤單 [Gūdān]. OF
you've shown us a really amazing window, Chihyun,thank you so much for sharing that with me.
My pleasure. OF
the last thing I'd ask everyone in that chair is,for the next season of Mosaic of China, Season 3,
who would you recommend that I interview next?CC: I have a friend
(27:16):
who is very interesting. His name is Sun Yang.
He is the best Balkan specialist…OF: Balkan, so you mean like Serbia,
Croatia, that area?CC: Yeah.
OF (27:27):
Right. CC
in the UK, in the U.S., in the whole Westernworld, I think his knowledge of the Balkans
is the most distinctive.OF: Wow, that's not the
kind of person I would have imagined ona Mosaic of China podcast, but I love it.
CC (27:44):
Yeah, you should talk to him. OF
you so much Chihyun.CC: No problem.
[Outro]OF:
Well there you have it, there are some professorswho can justifiably be accused of living in their
own little academic bubbles, but ProfessorChang is not one of them. Sadly that doesn’t
mean that he isn’t still quite strict whenhe needs to be. He knows, for example,
(28:05):
that I should be writing my thesis right now,rather than releasing this episode, which is
one of the reasons why this will be the last oneof 2020, and we’ll be back again in the new year.
In case you would like to get yourself a Christmaspresent before then, now is the time to remind
you about the PREMIUM version of the podcast,which includes an average of 15 extra minutes
per episode. Here are some clips of what youcan hear there from today’s conversation.
(28:29):
[Clip 1]CC: I was a sort of
bodyguard for a gentlemen's club.OF: Oh right.
Yeah. [Clip 2]
So they used China as the bad example, not like what Voltaire did in the early 18th century.
[Clip 3]CC: 我是老师 [Wǒ shì lǎoshī].
OF (28:51):
Yeah, that means ‘I'm a teacher’. CC
OK. [Clip 4]
CC (28:56):
You are going to suffer, mate. [Clip 5]
I know there are a lot of restrictions and limitations, but trust me,
I have gone through the restrictionsin the late 80s. It's exactly the same.
OF (29:11):
In Taiwan, right? CC
[Clip 6]CC: It’s a gigantic cluster**** with
Chinese characteristics, for ****’s sake.[End of Audio Clips]
Please head to https://mosaicofchina.comfor information on how to subscribe,
and in the meantime add us on @mosaicofchina- on Instagram, Facebook or WeChat - to follow
the images from the series. Today’s includeChihyun and his object, the watch from his
(29:33):
days in the Taiwanese army; a photo of himfrom those days; and a whole bunch of others.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a shortened version of my catch-upinterview with Tom Barker from Episode 25 of
Season 01 - there’s a longer version of this alsoavailable in the PREMIUM version of the show - and
(29:54):
I’ll see you again in January. Here’s hoping2021 will be a little less eventful than 2020.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Tom.Tom Barker: Hi, how are you?
I'm well. All the better to see you. TB
(30:19):
Well, I think with all of these update chats I'm doing, it's been at
least a year since we did the recording, right?TB: That’s right. Probably a little bit over,
maybe a year and a half.OF: Yes. Well, first of all,
so you are at the forefront of what was happeningduring the early days of Coronavirus because you,
of course, work in the New Zealand consulate.TB: That's right. So, yeah, it was a really weird,
(30:41):
crazy time. I was in New Zealand on holiday forour summer holiday in January. And I flew back in,
the day before Chinese New Year, which Ithink was also roughly the same day that
Wuhan sort of went into full lockdown, or possiblythe day after it went into full lockdown. And wow,
what a crazy year since!OF: God, yeah.
TB (31:00):
We arrived back, we had almost immediately an evacuation flight that we had to organise from the
consulate, to get all the New Zealanders in Wuhanout. And we did it from here, because obviously
we're a little bit closer from Shanghai. And weteamed up with our cousins, the Australians, who
cover Wuhan in their jurisdiction.OF: Of course, things changed,
and then things started to normalisein China pretty quickly right?
(31:24):
It did. I mean, ironically for me, the normalisation actually made me more busy.
So, you know, the New Zealand Consulate’svery small - we’ve made jokes about that
in the past - we got much smaller. We evacuatedall non-essential staff, so we went down to two
New Zealanders in the post. And then my boss, theConsul General, went back to New Zealand. That was
(31:48):
about late March. And so for a very long period,it was just me alone in the post. But honestly,
it felt like I was the only Kiwi in Shanghai.OF: Well, because you would have been just in
that place by yourself, handling everything.TB: Yep, I was rolling around in a very large
office, pretty much on my own. Evenour local staff weren't coming in.
(32:09):
So we had maybe, tops, one otherperson in the office with me.
People still weren't travelling into thecity as much. And so I'd have these wonderful
cycles into work, and I'd pass no-one. And thenI remember once in late April, getting passed
by four cars and being deeply offended by it.OF: Yeah. And here we are now, it's early 2021.
(32:31):
And what is the situation like these days,then, especially personally? So you have a
fully-staffed team now again, do you?TB: So I have an almost fully-staffed
team. I still have no Consul General,so I'm still the Acting Consul General.
That will change hopefully very soon.OF: And I'm thinking back to our episode,
and we had a discussion about Confucianism.And it was about how the Chinese have
(32:55):
kept the discipline side of Confucianism. And I'mwondering whether that was part of what explained
how China was able to cope with this so well.TB: It could be. I honestly don't have
a particularly good story to tell around howsome countries managed to do really well,
and others didn't. I mean, it’s not a story ofa particular philosophy. I think it's a story
(33:17):
of whether people believe their government,have trust in their government, and whether
they have trust in the scientific process thatthe government uses to inform decision-making.
OF (33:25):
Yeah. TB
it's been immensely rewarding.OF: Right. Because I guess there'd
be times when you would scratch your headand say “What good have I done today?”
But this is not one of those times, right?TB: Yeah, it was definitely a moment where you
can go home from work most days, and I'd be ableto actually look back and, you know, there’d be
tangible things you've managed to achieve. Or ifyou haven't achieved it, you're making progress in
(33:45):
the right direction. As compared to most of mylife where you look back and go “Did that long
bit of paper I wrote, or did those five messages Isent actually make any difference in the universe?
Or am I just filling up the world with more junk?”OF: Well, this hasn't been junk. I really
appreciated it, Tom. It's good to know that thereare people like you who have been helping. And,
(34:06):
you know, you started off this conversationby saying how stressed you've been,
and I think people would be very gratefulfor the work that you've been doing. Well,
COVID has changed a lot of things, and one ofthem was the fact that the person you referred
could no longer participate in the next season.But I found a good replacement. So I hope that
there will still be some kind of connectionbetween you and the future series of Mosaic
(34:29):
of China. I was always really gratefulthat you participated in this project,
and I hope that we can continue to stay in touch.TB: Oh very much so. I mean, I'll always be
listening. So at the very least, there'llbe that. But hopefully we can do more.
Thanks so much, Tom. TB
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