May 24, 2021 • 41 mins
Any speechwriter will corroborate that you can use the art of self-deprecation to engage an audience in ways that cannot be achieved through other rhetorical tricks. But if you adopt the wrong tone, it can come across as inauthentic, unfunny, and - worst of all - creepy. It takes a surprising amount of thoughtfulness, skill and intelligence to make yourself the subject of derision. Clowns are the monarchs of self-mockery, and today's guest is the King. The Frog King, to be precise. Björn Dahlman's story takes him from the suburbs of Sweden to the mountains of the Middle Kingdom, where he performed the first ever Clowns Without Borders project in China. And in a culture where it is very difficult to celebrate your mistakes, he teaches us all a valuable lesson in the dignity of laughter. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Maple Zuo from Season 01 Episode 02. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-02-maple-zuo). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:32 - Part 1 21:26 - Part 2 30:57 - Outro 34:12 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-17-bjorn-dahlman.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]BD: Björn, get in the car. You're in the show.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is the third in Season 02 whichwas recorded remotely, because the person who was
nominated by the guest from Season 01 has foundthemselves stranded outside of China due to COVID.
(00:28):
The first was Katherine Wong from Episode 04,who was stuck in Peru, the second was Alex Shoer
from Episode 11, who was stuck in California, andtoday's guest Björn Dahlman is stuck in Sweden.
So you'll hear the differencein sound quality immediately.
In fact, there's quite a loud hiss in Björn'saudio, which makes it sound like he's doing
(00:50):
his side of the interview from a pit full ofsnakes. But I hope you can fiddle with your
volume controls and find a way to make this acomfortable listen. I promise you it's worth it.
Today's guest Björn is a professional clown,which might make it one of those subjects that can
a be polarising love/hate situation. If you loveclowns, please listen, you will learn something
(01:12):
new. And if you detest clowns, and wish you couldvaporise them all with the press of a button,
I promise you will also enjoy thisconversation. It shouldn't take you
long to realise that - at least forsome people - it takes a surprising
amount of thoughtfulness and intelligenceto make yourself the object of stupidity.
[Part 1]OF:
(01:35):
Thank you so much, Björn. You are aprofessional clown, is that right?
BD (01:39):
Yes, that is right. OF
friend Maple said about you.[Start of Audio Clip]
Maple ZUO (01:47):
His name is Björn, he’s from Sweden. I met him in comedy, he’s a very funny clown.
And then later on, we worked together in a charityhospital. And we talked more, and I felt like he's
very warm-hearted. And he's very professional.[End of Audio Clip]
BD (02:04):
Yeah. OF
first get to know each other? What's your story?BD: Well, there was this new comedian at Kung Fu
Komedy, and she was absolutely hilarious. Andit also turned out she was a super nice person.
Simple as that.OF: So I am guessing
what object you have brought today that in someway exemplifies your life here in China. But why
(02:28):
don't you explain what do you have brought?BD: Well, why don't we do this, I will put
it on and you tell me what you see. Youlike this? So this is my red clown nose,
the nose that I'm wearing when I'm doing shows.And I will take it off now because I think we will
scare listeners away. I just did a tour becausein Sweden, kindergartens were kept open right? And
(02:53):
we were allowed to do shows for about ten kids.OF: Well, you mentioned that you are in Sweden.
You are one of the people in this series thatI am interviewing remotely, which is a shame,
but I'm very grateful that we could still dothis. Whereabouts in Sweden are you right now?
I'm in my hometown. It's called Uppsala. It's the fourth biggest city of Sweden, I've
(03:14):
come to consider it a very, very small town.OF: It's a different life to what you normally
would have been used to in Shanghai, I hopethat you can come back as soon as possible.
How long have you actually lived in Shanghai?BD: So I've considered Shanghai my base since
2014, when I started studying Chinese at theShanghai Theatre Academy. And then I've been,
(03:35):
you know, student visas, business visas… I finallygot my working visa, and now I couldn't even enter
with it, because of the pandemic. So I have tostart the process all over. But yes, six years.
OF (03:50):
But that's not where your China story started, right? You had a
connection long before that, didn't you?BD: Yes. So I guess it started with my
hippie parents. So I grew up in a house where,you know, they would talk about Daoism, my mother
started doing Tai Chi in the late 80s, and thenmy father started doing Tai Chi, and they were
(04:13):
these kind of parents. I remember I was 14 yearsold, and I came home from school, and I just felt
horrible. And I felt so stressed about everything.And my mother gave me this book that was called
“The Tao of Pooh’, as in Winnie the Pooh. And thatwas my introduction to Daoism, which of course
was linked to the Tai Chi they kept talking about.And something just clicked inside of me. And I was
(04:38):
like “Wow, this is it”. From that point, I alsopicked up Tai Chi, 太极拳 [Tàijíquán]. Then in 2010,
I was drawn into this international theatreproject that toured Sweden, England,
and Shanghai. And it was so funny, at the sametime as I got this job, I was at the gym, and I
(04:59):
saw a guy in the sauna. And I had noticed him inthe gym, because he was doing other exercises I’d
never seen before, and he did it with an intensitythat I'd never seen before. I was like “Who
is this weirdo?” And I noticed he had a Chinesedragon tattoo, right? But this was like old style,
on his chest. I was like “What?” And then Ihear him saying to another guy in the sauna,
(05:21):
“I just came back, I've been on a Chinese mountainfor a year”. So I asked this guy in Chinese, “Was
it the 少林 [Shàolín] mountain?" And he answeredin Chinese, “No it was the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain.”
Ah. BD
like “What?” You know, the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountainfrom ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’, the film.
I asked “Is this mountain for real?! I thought itwas a legend.” He was like “Yeah, I’ve just been
(05:45):
there”. So I started training with him, of course.He moved back to the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain - Jakob
is his name - and when I was in Shanghaiperforming, I contacted him saying “Hey, I'm
in China, can I come to 武当 [Wǔdāng] and just, youknow, visit and take some pictures?” He said “No.
If you come here, you have to practice”.So I went there for ten days. I practiced,
(06:08):
I was literally laying on the schoolyard next tothe temple, crying in pain. And I was like “This
is it.” And I had just started my company back inSweden, we had just started to receive funding, we
were doing well. No, this is it. So I changed mylife, and I was like “OK, I'm gonna do a 100-day
basic course on this mountain.”OF: Whoa. 100 days.
BD (06:31):
…Of pain. OF
Of painful Tai Chi practice. OF:
Well, we have got to the part of the storywhere you are doing Tai Chi on a mountain.
Yes. OF
that is connected to you now working as a clown.BD: Well, I wish I had a super smart answer.
The answer is (06:55):
no connection. I've always been interested in clowning. There was a company
in Sweden - 123 Schtunk - they found a way to doclowning for grown-ups. So what they did was that,
instead of making these slapstick kind of mistakes- like, you know, falling on your ass - they found
a way to translate these kind of mistakes topsychological mistakes. So they started to do
(07:22):
Shakespeare plays as clowns. And this totally blewmy mind. I saw their version of Macbeth, it was a
huge game changer for me, I was like “Wow”. Sosince that day, I was like “I have to be a clown”.
And I had also heard about this organisationcalled ‘Clowns Without Borders’. They went to
(07:45):
war zones playing clown shows for kids in refugeecamps. And then nowadays they go to all kinds of
underprivileged children ‘in crisis’, so to say.So I wrote to them, saying “Hey, I really want
to work with you guys, I heard about you what youdo, it’s amazing.” And they said “Well, we don't
(08:06):
have a budget to create shows, you have to haveyour own routine already.” And I was like “Well I
never did clowning, I never studied clowning.” Butthen in 2012, I worked with a guy, an Indian actor
named Rupesh Tillu. So he was working with ClownsWithout Borders. I directed him, we did a clown
play about environmental refugees. We went on atour to the USA with that play, the UNESCO Center
(08:30):
for Peace invited us to play. And on the last dayof that tour, he was supposed to go to school for
deaf children to do the show. And he wakes meup in the morning, staring at me with big eyes,
saying “Bee-yawn” - he couldn’t pronounce my name,Björn - “Bee-yawn, did you ever do clowning?” I
was like “I did a one-hour workshop six years ago,why? He said "Get in the car! You're in the show!”
(08:56):
I was like “How do I develop a clown character?”And he said “Find a costume”. So Rupesh gave me
a crown, that he uses in another show. And hegave me the flippers that we did in this show
about environmental refugees. And he looked at thecrown, and he looked at the flippers, and he said
“OK you're the Frog King, get in the car”.And in the car he said “OK, if the kids laugh,
(09:20):
stay. And your goal is to stay for one minute.”And I entered the stage, and then I have no idea
what happened. Ten minutes later, I seeRupesh waving, like “Get off the stage,
it’s my turn.” And so the Frog King was born.OF: That actually is your character now?
BD (09:36):
Oh totally, I did more than 400 shows with the Frog King.
OF (09:40):
Oh. BD
So there it was, the birth of the Frog King. BD
then Rupesh said “OK, now we have a clownshow. Let's go to Clowns without Borders
Sweden and say we want to make a Clowns withoutBorders tour to India.” And that was another
life-changer. Because we played for childrenliving on the streets; we went to orphanages
(10:02):
for kids infected with HIV from birth; andwe also went to the red light districts,
where women who were trafficked as children arebeing locked into brothels, and their kids, they
hide under their mothers’ beds when their mothershave customers. And we performed for these kids.
(10:25):
And the way those kids laughed when weperformed, I’d never heard anything like that.
Wow. BD
person. But seeing those kids laugh, that's theonly religion I need. I don't understand how there
can still be happiness and hope and laughter inthem. We kept doing this project year after year,
(10:49):
we went back to these kids. In the second year,they were laughing as much. In the third year,
they said “We want our mothers to see theshow.” Because there were kids there who
never in their entire life had seen their motherslaugh. They fell off their chairs laughing.
So of course, this gave me some new perspectiveson what art can do, and what clowning can do.
(11:15):
Then I came to Shanghai in 2014. I was at theShanghai Theatre Academy to study Chinese.
And at the school, there was this Swedish ladywho was at that time doing a PhD in directing,
her name is Maja-Stina Johansson Wang - Maja 老师[Lǎoshī]. And she ran a company doing children's
(11:36):
theatre - in the way that Sweden got world famousfor back in the 80s - in Shanghai. And I was like
“Oh, my god”. And she was gonna reopen aplay, she asked me to direct the reopening,
which I did. I said, “Let's do test shows.And since we’re anyway doing test shows,
we might just as well give them for free. Andsince we're giving it away for free, why don't
(11:58):
we find these underprivileged children herein Shanghai?” And we did, and it went so well,
we had amazing workshops afterwards. And we werelike “Whoa, this is it”. So in 2015, we created
a Clowns Without Borders project, the first everin China. We targeted children of migrant workers,
(12:21):
and we started touring schools and kindergartens,with a new clown show that we made. And nowadays,
it is the Frog King going around, and I involveChinese actors. I train them in my workshops,
and then they go with me as my sidekicks. I letthem learn the way I learned. I say “OK, get on
the stage, stay for a minute, then I'll takeover,” and then we just build and build around
(12:44):
it. Nowadays I’m mostly touring with a Chineseactor named 边萧 [Biān Xiāo], I am the Frog King,
he's the Toad Emperor. The whole concept is thatthe audience should feel that it's their show,
they are the most important people in the world.OF: In that case, do you see a difference between,
let's say, when you're doing the Frog Kingin India, with that particular audience,
(13:06):
versus a Chinese audience?BD: When it comes to the children,
not at all. Because children understand it. Butthe grown-ups? I mean, India has a very, very rich
theatre tradition, a lot of variety, all that. InIndia, they kind of accept this with an open mind.
But in China, you have this… Well, first you havethis concept of 表演 [biǎoyǎn] right? Performance
(13:30):
here is always, someone is showing a skill,and then it's up to the audience to judge it.
So just this talking to the audience, you can seethat grown-ups are like “What is going on here?”
And then also, like, when we go to schools inChina, the first thing they asked me is “What are
you gonna teach the children?” And I say to theseteachers “Nothing, I just want them to be happy".
(13:53):
And they say “Why?” But then I do the show,and they come up afterwards, and they say “Oh,
the kids were laughing!” I say “I know”.“No, but they were so happy!” I say “I know!”
Everything, you know, has to serve a purpose.And when I say "No, I'm not interested in that”,
that is a huge cultural barrier.OF: Wow, well we've come across
(14:14):
something interesting, which is the deeperphilosophy behind the clowning. And have
you just said what it is? Like,is it simply to make people laugh,
and that's it? Or is there something more to it?BD: Well, I'm the kind of person who likes to
think there's always something more to it. Ithink the key word is ‘here’. And ‘now’. Because
if we meet in laughter, then that isthe only thing that exists right now.
(14:41):
You can't feel angry when you're laughing; youcan't feel sad at the very moment you're laughing.
And as simple as it sounds, that is the key.And you can connect a whole life philosophy
around that, I would say it's about dignity. Myrecent trip was to Nigeria, we were playing for
former child soldiers, 20-year-old guys who,from the age of 9,10, were forced to be soldiers,
(15:04):
and then they were liberated, put into prison.You don't want to know what these guys have been
through, or what they have done to other people.But at that very moment - you look in their eyes,
you make them laugh, and you share the joy - thereis no history. There is only this sacred room,
where we are who we are deep inside.OF: Yeah. Well, we've talked about the
(15:27):
aspects that are positive with clowning.I've got to mention the negative aspects,
which are all the more prevalent these days,right? I mean, you know where I'm going with this.
BD (15:36):
Yeah. OF
archetypal image of the clown being somethingscary, especially for adults. So where does that
come from? And what's your reaction to it?BD: Well, I think there are many angles to
that. I think one is this - now I forgot that theword - but there's this psychological phenomenon
which says that the more human something gets, themore we identify, up to a certain point where it's
(16:01):
almost human, but not. And then it's just scary.OF: I know it, it's called ‘uncanny valley’.
Uncanny valley, I should remember that word. So that's one thing. And then there's
also this aspect of… because the clown is thetrickster, right? It’s the trickster archetype.
And the trickster represents chaos. The humanneed to control chaos, it’s… I mean, you can
(16:23):
find it in any mythology. It's very deep, our needto control chaos. And the clown represents chaos.
And then there's also this… I mean, characters whohave the power to draw children to them are always
scary. And should be scary. We should alwaysbe careful with people who the children want
(16:44):
to run to, right? For obvious reasons. So theseare the theoretical, psychological explanations,
I think. But then there are so many clowns, theyhaven't studied the technique. They just wear
some s**t, handing out balloons at some events.And kids are so smart, they know this is bulls**t.
OF (17:01):
Right. BD
makeup, a fake smile - I think the fake smileis a big part of it - they run up to the kids,
doing weird stuff. And many times it's a veryweird situation where the parents are pushing
the kids, like “Go and hug the clown!” And theclown goes “Waah”. The kid just wants to die.
(17:21):
Yes. BD
you cross the border, you cross the borderwhere the kids don't feel safe anymore. I mean,
there's a technique. I teach this in my workshops,whenever you enter a kid's personal space,
you must ask permission. You look the kid inthe eye, you read the body language, “Does this
kid want me to take one step closer, or not?” Soagain, it's about respect. It's the kids - or the
(17:48):
person's - experience. Not my need to be funny.OF: How interesting. And then let's go back
to China. If you talk aboutthe traditions of clowning,
is there any equivalent at all in Chinese history?BD: Well, yes, and no. I mean, the Beijing
opera has the clown tradition. They had the 小丑[xiǎochǒu] - the ‘Little Ugly’, literally - which
(18:12):
has the white face. But it's believed to be a badcharacter. It's a character doing wrong, doing bad
things, making a mess. And this is very difficult,because when I'm in China, and I say, ”Oh, I'm
a 小丑 [xiǎochǒu]”, the association is not ‘a funnyguy who makes kids laugh’, the association is ‘a
villain’. So we're struggling with this, all of uswho are working with this. We’re like "Should we
(18:35):
come up with a new name? Should we call it ‘mineartist’”? Because people love Charlie Chaplin. And
yeah, it’s… we're working on it. Then there's thisother very interesting parallel, I also started
teaching clowning in China. And it's been amazingbecause I really want to teach the philosophy of
it. And the philosophy is basically, 'celebrateyour mistake’. In China - because the culture is
(19:02):
very strong that you can't lose your face, youcan't make a mistake - I had Chinese students,
grown-up people, starting to cry in my workshop,really saying “It's the first time in my
life that I'm allowed to make a mistake”. Andthis is where clowning becomes really difficult,
and - you know, we talked about the scary clowns- it’s not about acting stupid, it's about
(19:26):
daring to let people perceive you as stupid.OF: Yes.
BD (19:29):
Which means you have to be as stupid as you actually are. You know, sometimes it hurts you.
For real. And then you want to put on a mask thatis not the red nose, but this other kind of mask,
to protect yourself. But that's when you becomethe scary clown. That's when you feel it's fake,
and something weird is going on. Every joke Ido on stage is a mistake I did for real in some
(19:53):
show. I panic, but then the art is to share thattrue panic with the audience, and let them laugh.
And it removes the shame. The shame washes away.
And you’re able to say to yourself “I'm OK”.OF: Interesting. Well, I mean, I have been
in the camp of not really understandingor enjoying clowns in the past. But
(20:18):
you've really explained it to me, you know,the way that you use the art of clowning to
almost battle the dehumanising, the isolatingnature of modern society. I can definitely
see where clowning plays a part in that.BD: I think so, yeah. Because the concept of
presence is so rare these days. It's soimportant to cherish these moments when we're
(20:42):
in the same room, laughing at the same time. And Itell you, standing on a stage or in a schoolyard,
seeing 400 kids at the same moment justburst into laughter, it's something else.
OF (20:56):
Yeah. BD
to another world. For a few seconds, you are in aworld where what you did not believe was possible,
is actually possible. And then you're ina land that is magic for real. And when
you're in that land, you can change things.OF: Yes. Well, thank you so much Björn,
I really appreciate that. And I hope that Ican see one of your shows when you finally
(21:20):
are allowed back into China.BD: I will invite you.
Let’s move on to Part 2. BD
[Part 2]OF:
Right, well, let's move on to thequestions then, my ten questions.
BD (21:32):
Yes. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?BD: The fact that you can walk in a park,
and you can meet old men and women whoactually have amazing Kung Fu skills.
I have this 70-something-year-old teacher inShanghai, he was teaching me spear fighting,
(21:55):
this long three-metre spear. And he showedme and a bunch of other 30-something guys,
“OK, so this is how you hold the spear in onehand”. And four of us, we couldn't lift the spear,
it was too heavy. And this teacher, withoutan effort, just takes it up with one hand,
holds the very edge of it,and balances it perfectly.
And you see these things happening all the time.And it's like “Yes, ‘Crouching Tiger Hidden
(22:19):
Dragon’ fairytale China is still alive.”OF: Absolutely.
They know s**t. OF
They know s**t. OF:
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?BD: 太好了 [Tài hǎole], ’too good’. 太 [Tài] is the
same word as in Tai Chi, meaning ‘too much’. Itrefers to this whole Daoist theory of 阴 [yīn]
(22:40):
and 阳 [yáng], when something becomes too much ofone thing, it turns into its opposite. So 太 [tài]
would be the black dot in the white field ofthe 阴 [yīn] and 阳 [yáng] symbol. And you see
these things all the time. I very much likethis expression. It has this aspect of very
every-day speaking, but there's alsothis very, very deep philosophical
(23:02):
meaning of it. Like, you feel the depth.OF: What is your favourite
destination within China?BD: My heart will always be
on 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain. But what I heard is thatthey did what they did in 少林 [Shàolín] mountain.
They banned all the schools on the mountains,and they built a village below, which is… Ah.
OF (23:21):
OK, well, this is a funny question. So the question I normally ask next is,
‘If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?’
But what was the reality of the situation? Whathave you missed the most, and what haven’t you?
BD (23:36):
Well it’s so funny because I don't feel that I left China. I am totally still in China. Well,
I miss my friends. I miss the people.OF: Yeah. And what about the things that you
didn't miss? Like, what would you miss the least?BD: Oh, the silence of Sweden, I love it.
I am very sensitive to sound. Cars honking,drilling, people screaming, crowded restaurants,
(24:03):
you know. That's the one thing. I feel it inmy body, there’s a higher level of tension
when all this noise is going on.OF: Yeah, I was asking you to find a
quiet place in your part of the world…BD: And I was like “Yeah, well,
what room should I pick?”OF: Yeah, and I'm sure that
any noise in the background we heard in thisrecording would have come from outside of my
(24:24):
window, not yours. Is there anything thatstill surprises you about life in China?
Every day. So I do Kung Fu in People's Park. And I just remember going to the public bathroom
there, and they'd put in a face scanner, youhave to scan your face to get your toilet paper.
I understand the logic of it, because I hearpeople just take the toilet paper and they
(24:47):
bring it back home to save money.OF: Oh.
But it's just… it's so bizarre. It's so many steps that’s like "Could this have been
done in another way?” No, they put in facescanners for toilet paper. Does this machine
calculate how much paper I need? Does it seemy chubby Western face? And it gives me a lot.
Like, every country has their way of craziness.OF: Yeah. You've reached my level of humour now,
(25:13):
talking about toilets, so…BD: Yeah, that's good.
That’s where I feel comfortable as well.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?BD: Well, I love going to new restaurants. And
every time I find a small little restaurantthat becomes my favourite… Every time I go
(25:35):
out from Shanghai and I come back,that restaurant has closed down.
OF (25:38):
Yeah. Can you think of one particular one? BD
into 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] food, and there was thisone small little 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] restaurant.
Or when there was this other one, it wascalled Seahorse Sushi, that had grilled
eel sushi. Oh, it was amazing. And they madetheir homemade spicy mayo sauce. It was, I think,
(26:06):
2017 or 2018 it disappeared, I don't remember.OF: Wow. What is the best or worst purchase
you have made in China?BD: If you want to buy
magic tricks in Sweden… Like, I have this wandthat is so tiny, you can hide it in your hand,
and then it becomes two metres. If you want tobuy it in Sweden, you have to pay like 800RMB.
(26:29):
And you buy it in China for like 50RMB. AndI didn't know any magic when i started doing
the magic show, so I bought things that gowith the character, like “What can I do?”
Now I try to make a flower go big, I say “Gobig, BAM”, and the wand goes big. And I look at
the flower, getting angry with the flower. The kidgoes bananas, screaming “Look at the wand! Look at
(26:51):
the wand!” I say “Yeah, the wand is big, whatever,the flower is…Oh my god, the wand is big!”
I could never do that in Sweden, because it wouldcost me 30,000RMB, which I very much don't have.
But this show happened in China because I couldbuy it. I had two suitcases full of magic gadgets
that I was just playing around with.OF: Yeah. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
BD (27:16):
It's a pink dragon hugging a girl, and there’s a story to it. In 2015, I met this Chinese girl
on what was then called ‘China Love Cupid’, Ithink. This was before the Tinder era. She didn't
speak English at all, so it was this total clichéof trying to communicate, trying to figure out
(27:42):
"Are we dating, or what?” She was talking aboutmarriage on, I think, the fourth date. You know,
all the clichés were there. But she looked likethat little girl in the sticker, and when I talked
to her I felt like a big pink fluffy dragon. So tome, that series of dragon and little girl stickers
became our little story. So it's a stickerattached to memories, more than anything else.
OF (28:07):
Beautiful. Thank you. BD
How long did it last in the end? BD
We're still in touch, though, as friends. It'sno drama. Just, I wish I could speak Chinese.
Well, it's chicken and egg, you know. Once you have a Chinese girlfriend,
that's when the language comes to you, right?BD: Yeah, and you know that's what the Chinese
(28:31):
teacher said at the school. “OK,step number one, find girlfriend.
Step number two, here's your textbook.”OF: What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
BD (28:41):
The title song of ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ of course, because it's so beautiful. And
me trying to hit tones, it's just… it's a mess.OF: What’s it called, does it have
a name in Chinese?BD: 为了爱 [Wèile ài],
‘Because of Love’, or ‘For the Sake of Love’.OF: Brilliant. OK, I don't actually know that,
I’m gonna have to find that out, how does it go?BD: Oh, I hate you.
(29:16):
It’s a girl singing, and yeah… I'm having fun,
the audience is like “Ah, bloody hell.”OF: Have you ever thought about incorporating
it into a show, in that case?BD: Oh that's brilliant. That is so…
No, I think Frog King will have to sing this…OF: And finally, what other China-related
(29:38):
media or sources of information do you rely on?BD: I try to listen to friends from different
places. Like I have my Chinese friends whorely on what they hear from their friends;
and I have my Chinese friends who really try todig into things; and I have my American friends;
(29:58):
my English friends; my Australianfriends; my Swedish friends. So
I try to hear all the stories, andtry to not fall into conspiracies,
but then also try to be critical.OF: Yes. Well on that note,
thank you so much Björn.BD: Thank you.
OF (30:12):
We've talked about Tai Chi, we’ve talked about toads, thank you so much.
BD (30:16):
Thank you, this was a true pleasure. OF
is the final question which is, out of everyoneyou know in China, who should I interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?BD: Well I have a very good friend,
she's in a way part of my China history, becausehe was an Associate Director in that project that
(30:37):
brought me to Shanghai. Her name is Elaine, or黄绮玲 [Huáng Qǐlíng]. She's a very good friend,
a film director mainly these days. I think youshould have a chat with her, I think she might
have some really nice perspectives on things.OF: Amazing, I can’t wait to meet her. I
think that would be the firstfilm director on the series,
so I look forward to that.BD: Awesome.
[Outro]OF:
(30:59):
Today's episode is a long one, so letme try to race through this outro.
First off, there is also a longer PREMIUMversion of every episode of the season,
you can find them at Patreon internationally andon 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. There was so much
more of Björn's story that we couldn't squeezeinto half an hour, and here are a few clips…
(31:20):
[Clip 1]BD: It's a horrible city to do theatre in.
And I guess that's why I want to do it.[Clip 2]
This is a show where we're constantly angry with each other.
[Clip 3]BD: Babies can screen “Mom,
Mom Mom” for an hour without getting hurt.And we actually use the same technique.
[Clip 4]BD: Every silly little dream,
you project into China.[Clip 5]
(31:40):
You know, my teacher hits me if I make a mistake.
[Clip 6]BD: Me falling on my ass. I mean,
how beautiful can life get?[Clip 7]
Bill Skarsgård, he’s a Swedish actor. OF
We had the same clown teacher. [End of Audio Clips]
Please also follow the images of today's episodeon social media, type in ‘mosaicofchina’ on
(32:02):
Instagram or Facebook, and the right page willappear. Otherwise add me on WeChat using me ID:
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group theremyself. Highlights from today's episode include
of course Björn's object, the red nose; hisfavourite WeChat sticker, featuring the love story
of the little girl and the big pink dragon;and lots of photos of the Frog King in action.
(32:27):
You may also have made some connections to otherepisodes of the show. For example the 武当 [Wǔdāng]
mountain at the heart of Björn's love story withChina was the favourite destination of Abe Deyo,
the tour manager from Season 01 Episode 27.There's also a Shakespeare connection, because
the effect that MacBeth played in Björn's life wasvery similar to the effect that seeing Othello had
(32:51):
on the life of Nick Yu, the playwright from Season01 Episode 13. But maybe the biggest connection
I made was between the story of clowning in Chinaand that of drag, told by the drag queen Cocosanti
in Season 02 Episode 05. Björn said thatclowning is about celebrating your mistakes,
and this concept of ‘daring to let people seeyour stupidity’ is very similar to Cocosanti’s
(33:16):
philosophy of 'daring to let people see yourweirdness and your imperfections'. In a culture
where cohesion and social conformity is thenorm, and where opportunities are fought for
competitively, it’s rare to see people allowingthemselves to be this vulnerable. But it's not
just China, we all have different personas thatwe exhibit differently depending on the context.
(33:39):
So maybe the inspiration that we should takefrom the likes of Björn and Cocosanti is to try
and be more like your authentic self, and let’sall make sure we aren’t being the scary clown.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
And since Björn was referred to Season 02by the comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01,
(33:59):
there follows a catch-up chatwith Maple coming right up.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Maple.Maple ZUO: Hi, Oscar.
OF (34:16):
I'm so excited to see you again, it's been too long.
MZ (34:19):
Too long, yeah. OF
COVID? Where were you?MZ: Shanghai.
OF (34:24):
You were here too? MZ
And then some people starting doingonline comedy. But it's weird, you know.
Yeah. MZ
you immediate feedback. And you’re talking to acomputer. And people want to laugh, but they’re
not laughing. It's really strange. Becausesometimes the people won't turn their camera
on. They’re just a name, right?OF: Oh god.
MZ (34:43):
You look at the computer, it's all names. OF
did you already have material that was relatingto Coronavirus? Or was it too soon at that point?
It was too soon, because it was too depressing. I couldn’t think about anything funny.
So I was just doing the old material.OF: Yeah. And this actually relates to
what you were talking about in our episode.Because you had that really ‘interesting’ - I
(35:07):
would say - childhood.MZ: Yeah.
OF (35:08):
But you were saying that with the darker parts, you weren't ready to start making jokes
about it. And I think everyone can appreciate thatthese days, you know. And I have the darkest sense
of humour - you know, you can shock me, I lovethat - but I don't want to hear jokes about COVID
right now myself.MZ: Yeah.
So I can totally understand where you came from, about
how you can't access that content right now.MZ: But then what's funny is, I just came back
(35:30):
from my parents house. I think I recovered a lot.OF: Tell me.
MZ (35:34):
Yeah, so when I look back, my childhood was very sad; very dark; there was family violence.
So I was always feeling really, really badabout it. After I was 18, throughout adulthood,
I tried to avoid my parents. However, this timewhen I went back, you know, they're getting old,
so they're getting emotional. So my mom andme were shopping, and then we just brought
(35:57):
this up. And my mom admitted what she had done tome. And then she said “Oh, we were busy surviving,
we couldn’t look after you, that’s why we sentyou away” and “Your dad has a temper issue,
but he's getting better now” and then “We love youboth. We love you and your brother both.” Like,
I was crying, but I don't want my mom tosee my tears, right. I just turned away and
just switched to another topic. But it wasso touching, because she never admitted that.
(36:21):
And then she said, “I'll look after your kid,if you have one. We'll make it up to you. We'll
give you more love. And I know we didn't giveyou much love”. You know, it's just… how do
you say? You know, it ‘recovered’ me.It’s… I don't know how to say this.
OF (36:35):
No, I mean, you said it very well. And that's something which, even in the West,
it would be a very cathartic experience. But herein China, where parents don't talk about their
emotions to their children, that's a huge deal.MZ: Yeah. You know, all that hate and all those
thoughts of revenge… are just relaxed now.So when I look at my family, I can maybe
(36:57):
talk about it. Like, try to write some… maybenot straightforward comedy, but stories. I can
write the story, talk to my mom. And then maybein the future I can make it into comedy, because
myself I already feel some relief from that.OF: Wow. That is such a big deal.
MZ (37:13):
Yeah. OF
I'm looking forward to more content in that case.MZ: I feel like sometimes people are just “Oh I am
a comedian, so I turn everything into comedy".But for me, I feel like comedy is just a way of
expressing yourself. But there are other ways toexpress yourself. So I'm not very keen to be like
“Everything has to be comedy”. And then thecomedians here, I think we're all amateur.
(37:34):
So we're still finding our way, like,what kind of comedians we want to be.
I don't think people are ready for that‘big story’ yet. Yeah. I feel like comedy
is a way - in a bigger sense - to be criticalabout the culture, right? And if you're in the
culture, and you can't critique it, then what'sthe point of doing comedy? So in September, I
(37:55):
started this online master's degree. It was abouteducation and psychology. I feel like it's opened
my mind. And I need to learn more, and read more.Maybe after COVID, I can find a better job. And
if I want to reopen my school, I have betterknowledge. So this is a challenge. I feel like,
if the situation is bad, and you can't dosomething, then you just stay and learn.
OF (38:17):
Yes. MZ
you just learn. It's just like that.OF: That's well said. So you're using this
time to just expand your knowledge on a certainarea. You're saying that maybe comedy won't be
the option. Maybe you'll say goodbye to comedy.MZ: It's just for now, because I can't really
do comedy.OF: Yeah.
MZ (38:33):
So I'm thinking maybe deep down get more material. I already started writing more material.
I just haven't tested it out yet.OF: Right.
So I'm just writing and waiting for the right time. I went back to Beijing,
and did a comedy set.OF: Great.
Just, like, two days ago. OF
It was great. I missed that feeling. The thing is, after the last time we talked,
I was talking about how I do Chinesecomedy or English comedy in China, right?
(38:56):
[Outside noise interruption]OF: Oh, wait a minute…
Yes? OF
OK! OF
OK. It's finished? OF
OK. So last time we met, I talked about how I do comedy in China. But after the interview,
I joined the Mongolia Comedy Festival, andI did pretty good. Really, really good.
OF (39:16):
I remember that. Yes, you messaged me when you were there. That's great, yes!
MZ (39:18):
Yeah. And I did a three headliners in… [Outside noise interruption]
OF (39:22):
They’re coming back! F**king hell! Oh my god, this is comedy right now. MZ
Hang on. MZ
We haven't got any f**king 手机 [shǒujī]! 没有洗衣机 [Méiyǒu xǐyījī]!
Who the hell gives them 洗衣机 [xǐyījī]]?!MZ: If you got that, it was very funny.
You should just leave that in.OF: OK.
OK, carry on.MZ: OK. So I joined the
(39:43):
Mongolia Comedy Festival. It was great. And thenI went to South Korea, I did three headliners.
Really? MZ
Nice. MZ
the Thailand comedy competition. And I went to thePhilippines, did gigs. All over the Asia, I tried.
Wow. MZ
we talked. So in Mongolia, I did one joke aboutMongolia, and they laughed. So it was like “Oh,
(40:07):
maybe I can try more”. So it’s like you're alwayspushing the audience - push, push, push - and then
you just get it. So right now, I think my comedyhas some normal jokes, old jokes, structured joke,
but sometimes I just improvise.OF: Fun.
MZ (40:19):
That was good, that was good. OF
anticipate what the audienceare projecting on you…
Yeah. OF
undercutting that impression. And surprising them.MZ: Yeah. If you're doing comedy, don’t think of
“What I want to say, what I want to say.” Don’tfocus on you. You should think about what your
audience wants to hear. And differentaudiences want to hear different stuff.
But then sometimes if you just focus onaudience, you can't express yourself.
(40:41):
So you need to balance both. Like OK, say whatI want to say. But say it in an acceptable way.
OF (40:47):
Well, it sounds like it's gonna work. Thank you so much for the update.
MZ (40:51):
Thank you. OF
You've been very honest about that. But it soundslike you're still motivated. And I know that you
are going to be a success. So please continue.MZ: Thank you so much. Please invite
me back in three years.OF: Yes! Well, that was the joke
we said last time. You'll be far too big for mein three years. I was saying 10 years before, but
it sounds like you're on track to do well in threeyears. And before you leave, so… I am going to be
(41:14):
releasing this at the same time as Björn’s episodeis coming out. So have you been in touch with him?
He has been stuck in Sweden the whole time.MZ: Yeah. I haven't been in
contact with him for ages.OF: Yeah, he's stuck out. But
I hope he'll come back soon.MZ: Yeah, hopefully.
OF (41:27):
Well, here is a message to you, Björn, when you do come back…
MZ (41:30):
Please visit us! OF
it here. Thanks again, Maple.MZ: Thank you, Oscar.
[Trailer]BD: Björn, get in the car. You're in the show.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today's episode is the third in Season 02 whichwas recorded remotely, because the person who was
nominated by the guest from Season 01 has foundthemselves stranded outside of China due to COVID.
(00:28):
The first was Katherine Wong from Episode 04,who was stuck in Peru, the second was Alex Shoer
from Episode 11, who was stuck in California, andtoday's guest Björn Dahlman is stuck in Sweden.
So you'll hear the differencein sound quality immediately.
In fact, there's quite a loud hiss in Björn'saudio, which makes it sound like he's doing
(00:50):
his side of the interview from a pit full ofsnakes. But I hope you can fiddle with your
volume controls and find a way to make this acomfortable listen. I promise you it's worth it.
Today's guest Björn is a professional clown,which might make it one of those subjects that can
a be polarising love/hate situation. If you loveclowns, please listen, you will learn something
(01:12):
new. And if you detest clowns, and wish you couldvaporise them all with the press of a button,
I promise you will also enjoy thisconversation. It shouldn't take you
long to realise that - at least forsome people - it takes a surprising
amount of thoughtfulness and intelligenceto make yourself the object of stupidity.
[Part 1]OF:
(01:35):
Thank you so much, Björn. You are aprofessional clown, is that right?
BD (01:39):
Yes, that is right. OF
friend Maple said about you.[Start of Audio Clip]
Maple ZUO (01:47):
His name is Björn, he’s from Sweden. I met him in comedy, he’s a very funny clown.
And then later on, we worked together in a charityhospital. And we talked more, and I felt like he's
very warm-hearted. And he's very professional.[End of Audio Clip]
BD (02:04):
Yeah. OF
first get to know each other? What's your story?BD: Well, there was this new comedian at Kung Fu
Komedy, and she was absolutely hilarious. Andit also turned out she was a super nice person.
Simple as that.OF: So I am guessing
what object you have brought today that in someway exemplifies your life here in China. But why
(02:28):
don't you explain what do you have brought?BD: Well, why don't we do this, I will put
it on and you tell me what you see. Youlike this? So this is my red clown nose,
the nose that I'm wearing when I'm doing shows.And I will take it off now because I think we will
scare listeners away. I just did a tour becausein Sweden, kindergartens were kept open right? And
(02:53):
we were allowed to do shows for about ten kids.OF: Well, you mentioned that you are in Sweden.
You are one of the people in this series thatI am interviewing remotely, which is a shame,
but I'm very grateful that we could still dothis. Whereabouts in Sweden are you right now?
I'm in my hometown. It's called Uppsala. It's the fourth biggest city of Sweden, I've
(03:14):
come to consider it a very, very small town.OF: It's a different life to what you normally
would have been used to in Shanghai, I hopethat you can come back as soon as possible.
How long have you actually lived in Shanghai?BD: So I've considered Shanghai my base since
2014, when I started studying Chinese at theShanghai Theatre Academy. And then I've been,
(03:35):
you know, student visas, business visas… I finallygot my working visa, and now I couldn't even enter
with it, because of the pandemic. So I have tostart the process all over. But yes, six years.
OF (03:50):
But that's not where your China story started, right? You had a
connection long before that, didn't you?BD: Yes. So I guess it started with my
hippie parents. So I grew up in a house where,you know, they would talk about Daoism, my mother
started doing Tai Chi in the late 80s, and thenmy father started doing Tai Chi, and they were
(04:13):
these kind of parents. I remember I was 14 yearsold, and I came home from school, and I just felt
horrible. And I felt so stressed about everything.And my mother gave me this book that was called
“The Tao of Pooh’, as in Winnie the Pooh. And thatwas my introduction to Daoism, which of course
was linked to the Tai Chi they kept talking about.And something just clicked inside of me. And I was
(04:38):
like “Wow, this is it”. From that point, I alsopicked up Tai Chi, 太极拳 [Tàijíquán]. Then in 2010,
I was drawn into this international theatreproject that toured Sweden, England,
and Shanghai. And it was so funny, at the sametime as I got this job, I was at the gym, and I
(04:59):
saw a guy in the sauna. And I had noticed him inthe gym, because he was doing other exercises I’d
never seen before, and he did it with an intensitythat I'd never seen before. I was like “Who
is this weirdo?” And I noticed he had a Chinesedragon tattoo, right? But this was like old style,
on his chest. I was like “What?” And then Ihear him saying to another guy in the sauna,
(05:21):
“I just came back, I've been on a Chinese mountainfor a year”. So I asked this guy in Chinese, “Was
it the 少林 [Shàolín] mountain?" And he answeredin Chinese, “No it was the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain.”
Ah. BD
like “What?” You know, the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountainfrom ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’, the film.
I asked “Is this mountain for real?! I thought itwas a legend.” He was like “Yeah, I’ve just been
(05:45):
there”. So I started training with him, of course.He moved back to the 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain - Jakob
is his name - and when I was in Shanghaiperforming, I contacted him saying “Hey, I'm
in China, can I come to 武当 [Wǔdāng] and just, youknow, visit and take some pictures?” He said “No.
If you come here, you have to practice”.So I went there for ten days. I practiced,
(06:08):
I was literally laying on the schoolyard next tothe temple, crying in pain. And I was like “This
is it.” And I had just started my company back inSweden, we had just started to receive funding, we
were doing well. No, this is it. So I changed mylife, and I was like “OK, I'm gonna do a 100-day
basic course on this mountain.”OF: Whoa. 100 days.
BD (06:31):
…Of pain. OF
Of painful Tai Chi practice. OF:
Well, we have got to the part of the storywhere you are doing Tai Chi on a mountain.
Yes. OF
that is connected to you now working as a clown.BD: Well, I wish I had a super smart answer.
The answer is (06:55):
no connection. I've always been interested in clowning. There was a company
in Sweden - 123 Schtunk - they found a way to doclowning for grown-ups. So what they did was that,
instead of making these slapstick kind of mistakes- like, you know, falling on your ass - they found
a way to translate these kind of mistakes topsychological mistakes. So they started to do
(07:22):
Shakespeare plays as clowns. And this totally blewmy mind. I saw their version of Macbeth, it was a
huge game changer for me, I was like “Wow”. Sosince that day, I was like “I have to be a clown”.
And I had also heard about this organisationcalled ‘Clowns Without Borders’. They went to
(07:45):
war zones playing clown shows for kids in refugeecamps. And then nowadays they go to all kinds of
underprivileged children ‘in crisis’, so to say.So I wrote to them, saying “Hey, I really want
to work with you guys, I heard about you what youdo, it’s amazing.” And they said “Well, we don't
(08:06):
have a budget to create shows, you have to haveyour own routine already.” And I was like “Well I
never did clowning, I never studied clowning.” Butthen in 2012, I worked with a guy, an Indian actor
named Rupesh Tillu. So he was working with ClownsWithout Borders. I directed him, we did a clown
play about environmental refugees. We went on atour to the USA with that play, the UNESCO Center
(08:30):
for Peace invited us to play. And on the last dayof that tour, he was supposed to go to school for
deaf children to do the show. And he wakes meup in the morning, staring at me with big eyes,
saying “Bee-yawn” - he couldn’t pronounce my name,Björn - “Bee-yawn, did you ever do clowning?” I
was like “I did a one-hour workshop six years ago,why? He said "Get in the car! You're in the show!”
(08:56):
I was like “How do I develop a clown character?”And he said “Find a costume”. So Rupesh gave me
a crown, that he uses in another show. And hegave me the flippers that we did in this show
about environmental refugees. And he looked at thecrown, and he looked at the flippers, and he said
“OK you're the Frog King, get in the car”.And in the car he said “OK, if the kids laugh,
(09:20):
stay. And your goal is to stay for one minute.”And I entered the stage, and then I have no idea
what happened. Ten minutes later, I seeRupesh waving, like “Get off the stage,
it’s my turn.” And so the Frog King was born.OF: That actually is your character now?
BD (09:36):
Oh totally, I did more than 400 shows with the Frog King.
OF (09:40):
Oh. BD
So there it was, the birth of the Frog King. BD
then Rupesh said “OK, now we have a clownshow. Let's go to Clowns without Borders
Sweden and say we want to make a Clowns withoutBorders tour to India.” And that was another
life-changer. Because we played for childrenliving on the streets; we went to orphanages
(10:02):
for kids infected with HIV from birth; andwe also went to the red light districts,
where women who were trafficked as children arebeing locked into brothels, and their kids, they
hide under their mothers’ beds when their mothershave customers. And we performed for these kids.
(10:25):
And the way those kids laughed when weperformed, I’d never heard anything like that.
Wow. BD
person. But seeing those kids laugh, that's theonly religion I need. I don't understand how there
can still be happiness and hope and laughter inthem. We kept doing this project year after year,
(10:49):
we went back to these kids. In the second year,they were laughing as much. In the third year,
they said “We want our mothers to see theshow.” Because there were kids there who
never in their entire life had seen their motherslaugh. They fell off their chairs laughing.
So of course, this gave me some new perspectiveson what art can do, and what clowning can do.
(11:15):
Then I came to Shanghai in 2014. I was at theShanghai Theatre Academy to study Chinese.
And at the school, there was this Swedish ladywho was at that time doing a PhD in directing,
her name is Maja-Stina Johansson Wang - Maja 老师[Lǎoshī]. And she ran a company doing children's
(11:36):
theatre - in the way that Sweden got world famousfor back in the 80s - in Shanghai. And I was like
“Oh, my god”. And she was gonna reopen aplay, she asked me to direct the reopening,
which I did. I said, “Let's do test shows.And since we’re anyway doing test shows,
we might just as well give them for free. Andsince we're giving it away for free, why don't
(11:58):
we find these underprivileged children herein Shanghai?” And we did, and it went so well,
we had amazing workshops afterwards. And we werelike “Whoa, this is it”. So in 2015, we created
a Clowns Without Borders project, the first everin China. We targeted children of migrant workers,
(12:21):
and we started touring schools and kindergartens,with a new clown show that we made. And nowadays,
it is the Frog King going around, and I involveChinese actors. I train them in my workshops,
and then they go with me as my sidekicks. I letthem learn the way I learned. I say “OK, get on
the stage, stay for a minute, then I'll takeover,” and then we just build and build around
(12:44):
it. Nowadays I’m mostly touring with a Chineseactor named 边萧 [Biān Xiāo], I am the Frog King,
he's the Toad Emperor. The whole concept is thatthe audience should feel that it's their show,
they are the most important people in the world.OF: In that case, do you see a difference between,
let's say, when you're doing the Frog Kingin India, with that particular audience,
(13:06):
versus a Chinese audience?BD: When it comes to the children,
not at all. Because children understand it. Butthe grown-ups? I mean, India has a very, very rich
theatre tradition, a lot of variety, all that. InIndia, they kind of accept this with an open mind.
But in China, you have this… Well, first you havethis concept of 表演 [biǎoyǎn] right? Performance
(13:30):
here is always, someone is showing a skill,and then it's up to the audience to judge it.
So just this talking to the audience, you can seethat grown-ups are like “What is going on here?”
And then also, like, when we go to schools inChina, the first thing they asked me is “What are
you gonna teach the children?” And I say to theseteachers “Nothing, I just want them to be happy".
(13:53):
And they say “Why?” But then I do the show,and they come up afterwards, and they say “Oh,
the kids were laughing!” I say “I know”.“No, but they were so happy!” I say “I know!”
Everything, you know, has to serve a purpose.And when I say "No, I'm not interested in that”,
that is a huge cultural barrier.OF: Wow, well we've come across
(14:14):
something interesting, which is the deeperphilosophy behind the clowning. And have
you just said what it is? Like,is it simply to make people laugh,
and that's it? Or is there something more to it?BD: Well, I'm the kind of person who likes to
think there's always something more to it. Ithink the key word is ‘here’. And ‘now’. Because
if we meet in laughter, then that isthe only thing that exists right now.
(14:41):
You can't feel angry when you're laughing; youcan't feel sad at the very moment you're laughing.
And as simple as it sounds, that is the key.And you can connect a whole life philosophy
around that, I would say it's about dignity. Myrecent trip was to Nigeria, we were playing for
former child soldiers, 20-year-old guys who,from the age of 9,10, were forced to be soldiers,
(15:04):
and then they were liberated, put into prison.You don't want to know what these guys have been
through, or what they have done to other people.But at that very moment - you look in their eyes,
you make them laugh, and you share the joy - thereis no history. There is only this sacred room,
where we are who we are deep inside.OF: Yeah. Well, we've talked about the
(15:27):
aspects that are positive with clowning.I've got to mention the negative aspects,
which are all the more prevalent these days,right? I mean, you know where I'm going with this.
BD (15:36):
Yeah. OF
archetypal image of the clown being somethingscary, especially for adults. So where does that
come from? And what's your reaction to it?BD: Well, I think there are many angles to
that. I think one is this - now I forgot that theword - but there's this psychological phenomenon
which says that the more human something gets, themore we identify, up to a certain point where it's
(16:01):
almost human, but not. And then it's just scary.OF: I know it, it's called ‘uncanny valley’.
Uncanny valley, I should remember that word. So that's one thing. And then there's
also this aspect of… because the clown is thetrickster, right? It’s the trickster archetype.
And the trickster represents chaos. The humanneed to control chaos, it’s… I mean, you can
(16:23):
find it in any mythology. It's very deep, our needto control chaos. And the clown represents chaos.
And then there's also this… I mean, characters whohave the power to draw children to them are always
scary. And should be scary. We should alwaysbe careful with people who the children want
(16:44):
to run to, right? For obvious reasons. So theseare the theoretical, psychological explanations,
I think. But then there are so many clowns, theyhaven't studied the technique. They just wear
some s**t, handing out balloons at some events.And kids are so smart, they know this is bulls**t.
OF (17:01):
Right. BD
makeup, a fake smile - I think the fake smileis a big part of it - they run up to the kids,
doing weird stuff. And many times it's a veryweird situation where the parents are pushing
the kids, like “Go and hug the clown!” And theclown goes “Waah”. The kid just wants to die.
(17:21):
Yes. BD
you cross the border, you cross the borderwhere the kids don't feel safe anymore. I mean,
there's a technique. I teach this in my workshops,whenever you enter a kid's personal space,
you must ask permission. You look the kid inthe eye, you read the body language, “Does this
kid want me to take one step closer, or not?” Soagain, it's about respect. It's the kids - or the
(17:48):
person's - experience. Not my need to be funny.OF: How interesting. And then let's go back
to China. If you talk aboutthe traditions of clowning,
is there any equivalent at all in Chinese history?BD: Well, yes, and no. I mean, the Beijing
opera has the clown tradition. They had the 小丑[xiǎochǒu] - the ‘Little Ugly’, literally - which
(18:12):
has the white face. But it's believed to be a badcharacter. It's a character doing wrong, doing bad
things, making a mess. And this is very difficult,because when I'm in China, and I say, ”Oh, I'm
a 小丑 [xiǎochǒu]”, the association is not ‘a funnyguy who makes kids laugh’, the association is ‘a
villain’. So we're struggling with this, all of uswho are working with this. We’re like "Should we
(18:35):
come up with a new name? Should we call it ‘mineartist’”? Because people love Charlie Chaplin. And
yeah, it’s… we're working on it. Then there's thisother very interesting parallel, I also started
teaching clowning in China. And it's been amazingbecause I really want to teach the philosophy of
it. And the philosophy is basically, 'celebrateyour mistake’. In China - because the culture is
(19:02):
very strong that you can't lose your face, youcan't make a mistake - I had Chinese students,
grown-up people, starting to cry in my workshop,really saying “It's the first time in my
life that I'm allowed to make a mistake”. Andthis is where clowning becomes really difficult,
and - you know, we talked about the scary clowns- it’s not about acting stupid, it's about
(19:26):
daring to let people perceive you as stupid.OF: Yes.
BD (19:29):
Which means you have to be as stupid as you actually are. You know, sometimes it hurts you.
For real. And then you want to put on a mask thatis not the red nose, but this other kind of mask,
to protect yourself. But that's when you becomethe scary clown. That's when you feel it's fake,
and something weird is going on. Every joke Ido on stage is a mistake I did for real in some
(19:53):
show. I panic, but then the art is to share thattrue panic with the audience, and let them laugh.
And it removes the shame. The shame washes away.
And you’re able to say to yourself “I'm OK”.OF: Interesting. Well, I mean, I have been
in the camp of not really understandingor enjoying clowns in the past. But
(20:18):
you've really explained it to me, you know,the way that you use the art of clowning to
almost battle the dehumanising, the isolatingnature of modern society. I can definitely
see where clowning plays a part in that.BD: I think so, yeah. Because the concept of
presence is so rare these days. It's soimportant to cherish these moments when we're
(20:42):
in the same room, laughing at the same time. And Itell you, standing on a stage or in a schoolyard,
seeing 400 kids at the same moment justburst into laughter, it's something else.
OF (20:56):
Yeah. BD
to another world. For a few seconds, you are in aworld where what you did not believe was possible,
is actually possible. And then you're ina land that is magic for real. And when
you're in that land, you can change things.OF: Yes. Well, thank you so much Björn,
I really appreciate that. And I hope that Ican see one of your shows when you finally
(21:20):
are allowed back into China.BD: I will invite you.
Let’s move on to Part 2. BD
[Part 2]OF:
Right, well, let's move on to thequestions then, my ten questions.
BD (21:32):
Yes. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?BD: The fact that you can walk in a park,
and you can meet old men and women whoactually have amazing Kung Fu skills.
I have this 70-something-year-old teacher inShanghai, he was teaching me spear fighting,
(21:55):
this long three-metre spear. And he showedme and a bunch of other 30-something guys,
“OK, so this is how you hold the spear in onehand”. And four of us, we couldn't lift the spear,
it was too heavy. And this teacher, withoutan effort, just takes it up with one hand,
holds the very edge of it,and balances it perfectly.
And you see these things happening all the time.And it's like “Yes, ‘Crouching Tiger Hidden
(22:19):
Dragon’ fairytale China is still alive.”OF: Absolutely.
They know s**t. OF
They know s**t. OF:
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?BD: 太好了 [Tài hǎole], ’too good’. 太 [Tài] is the
same word as in Tai Chi, meaning ‘too much’. Itrefers to this whole Daoist theory of 阴 [yīn]
(22:40):
and 阳 [yáng], when something becomes too much ofone thing, it turns into its opposite. So 太 [tài]
would be the black dot in the white field ofthe 阴 [yīn] and 阳 [yáng] symbol. And you see
these things all the time. I very much likethis expression. It has this aspect of very
every-day speaking, but there's alsothis very, very deep philosophical
(23:02):
meaning of it. Like, you feel the depth.OF: What is your favourite
destination within China?BD: My heart will always be
on 武当 [Wǔdāng] mountain. But what I heard is thatthey did what they did in 少林 [Shàolín] mountain.
They banned all the schools on the mountains,and they built a village below, which is… Ah.
OF (23:21):
OK, well, this is a funny question. So the question I normally ask next is,
‘If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?’
But what was the reality of the situation? Whathave you missed the most, and what haven’t you?
BD (23:36):
Well it’s so funny because I don't feel that I left China. I am totally still in China. Well,
I miss my friends. I miss the people.OF: Yeah. And what about the things that you
didn't miss? Like, what would you miss the least?BD: Oh, the silence of Sweden, I love it.
I am very sensitive to sound. Cars honking,drilling, people screaming, crowded restaurants,
(24:03):
you know. That's the one thing. I feel it inmy body, there’s a higher level of tension
when all this noise is going on.OF: Yeah, I was asking you to find a
quiet place in your part of the world…BD: And I was like “Yeah, well,
what room should I pick?”OF: Yeah, and I'm sure that
any noise in the background we heard in thisrecording would have come from outside of my
(24:24):
window, not yours. Is there anything thatstill surprises you about life in China?
Every day. So I do Kung Fu in People's Park. And I just remember going to the public bathroom
there, and they'd put in a face scanner, youhave to scan your face to get your toilet paper.
I understand the logic of it, because I hearpeople just take the toilet paper and they
(24:47):
bring it back home to save money.OF: Oh.
But it's just… it's so bizarre. It's so many steps that’s like "Could this have been
done in another way?” No, they put in facescanners for toilet paper. Does this machine
calculate how much paper I need? Does it seemy chubby Western face? And it gives me a lot.
Like, every country has their way of craziness.OF: Yeah. You've reached my level of humour now,
(25:13):
talking about toilets, so…BD: Yeah, that's good.
That’s where I feel comfortable as well.OF: Where is your favourite place to go out,
to eat or drink or just hang out?BD: Well, I love going to new restaurants. And
every time I find a small little restaurantthat becomes my favourite… Every time I go
(25:35):
out from Shanghai and I come back,that restaurant has closed down.
OF (25:38):
Yeah. Can you think of one particular one? BD
into 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] food, and there was thisone small little 新疆 [Xīnjiāng] restaurant.
Or when there was this other one, it wascalled Seahorse Sushi, that had grilled
eel sushi. Oh, it was amazing. And they madetheir homemade spicy mayo sauce. It was, I think,
(26:06):
2017 or 2018 it disappeared, I don't remember.OF: Wow. What is the best or worst purchase
you have made in China?BD: If you want to buy
magic tricks in Sweden… Like, I have this wandthat is so tiny, you can hide it in your hand,
and then it becomes two metres. If you want tobuy it in Sweden, you have to pay like 800RMB.
(26:29):
And you buy it in China for like 50RMB. AndI didn't know any magic when i started doing
the magic show, so I bought things that gowith the character, like “What can I do?”
Now I try to make a flower go big, I say “Gobig, BAM”, and the wand goes big. And I look at
the flower, getting angry with the flower. The kidgoes bananas, screaming “Look at the wand! Look at
(26:51):
the wand!” I say “Yeah, the wand is big, whatever,the flower is…Oh my god, the wand is big!”
I could never do that in Sweden, because it wouldcost me 30,000RMB, which I very much don't have.
But this show happened in China because I couldbuy it. I had two suitcases full of magic gadgets
that I was just playing around with.OF: Yeah. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
BD (27:16):
It's a pink dragon hugging a girl, and there’s a story to it. In 2015, I met this Chinese girl
on what was then called ‘China Love Cupid’, Ithink. This was before the Tinder era. She didn't
speak English at all, so it was this total clichéof trying to communicate, trying to figure out
(27:42):
"Are we dating, or what?” She was talking aboutmarriage on, I think, the fourth date. You know,
all the clichés were there. But she looked likethat little girl in the sticker, and when I talked
to her I felt like a big pink fluffy dragon. So tome, that series of dragon and little girl stickers
became our little story. So it's a stickerattached to memories, more than anything else.
OF (28:07):
Beautiful. Thank you. BD
How long did it last in the end? BD
We're still in touch, though, as friends. It'sno drama. Just, I wish I could speak Chinese.
Well, it's chicken and egg, you know. Once you have a Chinese girlfriend,
that's when the language comes to you, right?BD: Yeah, and you know that's what the Chinese
(28:31):
teacher said at the school. “OK,step number one, find girlfriend.
Step number two, here's your textbook.”OF: What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
BD (28:41):
The title song of ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ of course, because it's so beautiful. And
me trying to hit tones, it's just… it's a mess.OF: What’s it called, does it have
a name in Chinese?BD: 为了爱 [Wèile ài],
‘Because of Love’, or ‘For the Sake of Love’.OF: Brilliant. OK, I don't actually know that,
I’m gonna have to find that out, how does it go?BD: Oh, I hate you.
(29:16):
It’s a girl singing, and yeah… I'm having fun,
the audience is like “Ah, bloody hell.”OF: Have you ever thought about incorporating
it into a show, in that case?BD: Oh that's brilliant. That is so…
No, I think Frog King will have to sing this…OF: And finally, what other China-related
(29:38):
media or sources of information do you rely on?BD: I try to listen to friends from different
places. Like I have my Chinese friends whorely on what they hear from their friends;
and I have my Chinese friends who really try todig into things; and I have my American friends;
(29:58):
my English friends; my Australianfriends; my Swedish friends. So
I try to hear all the stories, andtry to not fall into conspiracies,
but then also try to be critical.OF: Yes. Well on that note,
thank you so much Björn.BD: Thank you.
OF (30:12):
We've talked about Tai Chi, we’ve talked about toads, thank you so much.
BD (30:16):
Thank you, this was a true pleasure. OF
is the final question which is, out of everyoneyou know in China, who should I interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?BD: Well I have a very good friend,
she's in a way part of my China history, becausehe was an Associate Director in that project that
(30:37):
brought me to Shanghai. Her name is Elaine, or黄绮玲 [Huáng Qǐlíng]. She's a very good friend,
a film director mainly these days. I think youshould have a chat with her, I think she might
have some really nice perspectives on things.OF: Amazing, I can’t wait to meet her. I
think that would be the firstfilm director on the series,
so I look forward to that.BD: Awesome.
[Outro]OF:
(30:59):
Today's episode is a long one, so letme try to race through this outro.
First off, there is also a longer PREMIUMversion of every episode of the season,
you can find them at Patreon internationally andon 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. There was so much
more of Björn's story that we couldn't squeezeinto half an hour, and here are a few clips…
(31:20):
[Clip 1]BD: It's a horrible city to do theatre in.
And I guess that's why I want to do it.[Clip 2]
This is a show where we're constantly angry with each other.
[Clip 3]BD: Babies can screen “Mom,
Mom Mom” for an hour without getting hurt.And we actually use the same technique.
[Clip 4]BD: Every silly little dream,
you project into China.[Clip 5]
(31:40):
You know, my teacher hits me if I make a mistake.
[Clip 6]BD: Me falling on my ass. I mean,
how beautiful can life get?[Clip 7]
Bill Skarsgård, he’s a Swedish actor. OF
We had the same clown teacher. [End of Audio Clips]
Please also follow the images of today's episodeon social media, type in ‘mosaicofchina’ on
(32:02):
Instagram or Facebook, and the right page willappear. Otherwise add me on WeChat using me ID:
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group theremyself. Highlights from today's episode include
of course Björn's object, the red nose; hisfavourite WeChat sticker, featuring the love story
of the little girl and the big pink dragon;and lots of photos of the Frog King in action.
(32:27):
You may also have made some connections to otherepisodes of the show. For example the 武当 [Wǔdāng]
mountain at the heart of Björn's love story withChina was the favourite destination of Abe Deyo,
the tour manager from Season 01 Episode 27.There's also a Shakespeare connection, because
the effect that MacBeth played in Björn's life wasvery similar to the effect that seeing Othello had
(32:51):
on the life of Nick Yu, the playwright from Season01 Episode 13. But maybe the biggest connection
I made was between the story of clowning in Chinaand that of drag, told by the drag queen Cocosanti
in Season 02 Episode 05. Björn said thatclowning is about celebrating your mistakes,
and this concept of ‘daring to let people seeyour stupidity’ is very similar to Cocosanti’s
(33:16):
philosophy of 'daring to let people see yourweirdness and your imperfections'. In a culture
where cohesion and social conformity is thenorm, and where opportunities are fought for
competitively, it’s rare to see people allowingthemselves to be this vulnerable. But it's not
just China, we all have different personas thatwe exhibit differently depending on the context.
(33:39):
So maybe the inspiration that we should takefrom the likes of Björn and Cocosanti is to try
and be more like your authentic self, and let’sall make sure we aren’t being the scary clown.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
And since Björn was referred to Season 02by the comedian Maple Zuo from Season 01,
(33:59):
there follows a catch-up chatwith Maple coming right up.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Hello, Maple.Maple ZUO: Hi, Oscar.
OF (34:16):
I'm so excited to see you again, it's been too long.
MZ (34:19):
Too long, yeah. OF
COVID? Where were you?MZ: Shanghai.
OF (34:24):
You were here too? MZ
And then some people starting doingonline comedy. But it's weird, you know.
Yeah. MZ
you immediate feedback. And you’re talking to acomputer. And people want to laugh, but they’re
not laughing. It's really strange. Becausesometimes the people won't turn their camera
on. They’re just a name, right?OF: Oh god.
MZ (34:43):
You look at the computer, it's all names. OF
did you already have material that was relatingto Coronavirus? Or was it too soon at that point?
It was too soon, because it was too depressing. I couldn’t think about anything funny.
So I was just doing the old material.OF: Yeah. And this actually relates to
what you were talking about in our episode.Because you had that really ‘interesting’ - I
(35:07):
would say - childhood.MZ: Yeah.
OF (35:08):
But you were saying that with the darker parts, you weren't ready to start making jokes
about it. And I think everyone can appreciate thatthese days, you know. And I have the darkest sense
of humour - you know, you can shock me, I lovethat - but I don't want to hear jokes about COVID
right now myself.MZ: Yeah.
So I can totally understand where you came from, about
how you can't access that content right now.MZ: But then what's funny is, I just came back
(35:30):
from my parents house. I think I recovered a lot.OF: Tell me.
MZ (35:34):
Yeah, so when I look back, my childhood was very sad; very dark; there was family violence.
So I was always feeling really, really badabout it. After I was 18, throughout adulthood,
I tried to avoid my parents. However, this timewhen I went back, you know, they're getting old,
so they're getting emotional. So my mom andme were shopping, and then we just brought
(35:57):
this up. And my mom admitted what she had done tome. And then she said “Oh, we were busy surviving,
we couldn’t look after you, that’s why we sentyou away” and “Your dad has a temper issue,
but he's getting better now” and then “We love youboth. We love you and your brother both.” Like,
I was crying, but I don't want my mom tosee my tears, right. I just turned away and
just switched to another topic. But it wasso touching, because she never admitted that.
(36:21):
And then she said, “I'll look after your kid,if you have one. We'll make it up to you. We'll
give you more love. And I know we didn't giveyou much love”. You know, it's just… how do
you say? You know, it ‘recovered’ me.It’s… I don't know how to say this.
OF (36:35):
No, I mean, you said it very well. And that's something which, even in the West,
it would be a very cathartic experience. But herein China, where parents don't talk about their
emotions to their children, that's a huge deal.MZ: Yeah. You know, all that hate and all those
thoughts of revenge… are just relaxed now.So when I look at my family, I can maybe
(36:57):
talk about it. Like, try to write some… maybenot straightforward comedy, but stories. I can
write the story, talk to my mom. And then maybein the future I can make it into comedy, because
myself I already feel some relief from that.OF: Wow. That is such a big deal.
MZ (37:13):
Yeah. OF
I'm looking forward to more content in that case.MZ: I feel like sometimes people are just “Oh I am
a comedian, so I turn everything into comedy".But for me, I feel like comedy is just a way of
expressing yourself. But there are other ways toexpress yourself. So I'm not very keen to be like
“Everything has to be comedy”. And then thecomedians here, I think we're all amateur.
(37:34):
So we're still finding our way, like,what kind of comedians we want to be.
I don't think people are ready for that‘big story’ yet. Yeah. I feel like comedy
is a way - in a bigger sense - to be criticalabout the culture, right? And if you're in the
culture, and you can't critique it, then what'sthe point of doing comedy? So in September, I
(37:55):
started this online master's degree. It was abouteducation and psychology. I feel like it's opened
my mind. And I need to learn more, and read more.Maybe after COVID, I can find a better job. And
if I want to reopen my school, I have betterknowledge. So this is a challenge. I feel like,
if the situation is bad, and you can't dosomething, then you just stay and learn.
OF (38:17):
Yes. MZ
you just learn. It's just like that.OF: That's well said. So you're using this
time to just expand your knowledge on a certainarea. You're saying that maybe comedy won't be
the option. Maybe you'll say goodbye to comedy.MZ: It's just for now, because I can't really
do comedy.OF: Yeah.
MZ (38:33):
So I'm thinking maybe deep down get more material. I already started writing more material.
I just haven't tested it out yet.OF: Right.
So I'm just writing and waiting for the right time. I went back to Beijing,
and did a comedy set.OF: Great.
Just, like, two days ago. OF
It was great. I missed that feeling. The thing is, after the last time we talked,
I was talking about how I do Chinesecomedy or English comedy in China, right?
(38:56):
[Outside noise interruption]OF: Oh, wait a minute…
Yes? OF
OK! OF
OK. It's finished? OF
OK. So last time we met, I talked about how I do comedy in China. But after the interview,
I joined the Mongolia Comedy Festival, andI did pretty good. Really, really good.
OF (39:16):
I remember that. Yes, you messaged me when you were there. That's great, yes!
MZ (39:18):
Yeah. And I did a three headliners in… [Outside noise interruption]
OF (39:22):
They’re coming back! F**king hell! Oh my god, this is comedy right now. MZ
Hang on. MZ
We haven't got any f**king 手机 [shǒujī]! 没有洗衣机 [Méiyǒu xǐyījī]!
Who the hell gives them 洗衣机 [xǐyījī]]?!MZ: If you got that, it was very funny.
You should just leave that in.OF: OK.
OK, carry on.MZ: OK. So I joined the
(39:43):
Mongolia Comedy Festival. It was great. And thenI went to South Korea, I did three headliners.
Really? MZ
Nice. MZ
the Thailand comedy competition. And I went to thePhilippines, did gigs. All over the Asia, I tried.
Wow. MZ
we talked. So in Mongolia, I did one joke aboutMongolia, and they laughed. So it was like “Oh,
(40:07):
maybe I can try more”. So it’s like you're alwayspushing the audience - push, push, push - and then
you just get it. So right now, I think my comedyhas some normal jokes, old jokes, structured joke,
but sometimes I just improvise.OF: Fun.
MZ (40:19):
That was good, that was good. OF
anticipate what the audienceare projecting on you…
Yeah. OF
undercutting that impression. And surprising them.MZ: Yeah. If you're doing comedy, don’t think of
“What I want to say, what I want to say.” Don’tfocus on you. You should think about what your
audience wants to hear. And differentaudiences want to hear different stuff.
But then sometimes if you just focus onaudience, you can't express yourself.
(40:41):
So you need to balance both. Like OK, say whatI want to say. But say it in an acceptable way.
OF (40:47):
Well, it sounds like it's gonna work. Thank you so much for the update.
MZ (40:51):
Thank you. OF
You've been very honest about that. But it soundslike you're still motivated. And I know that you
are going to be a success. So please continue.MZ: Thank you so much. Please invite
me back in three years.OF: Yes! Well, that was the joke
we said last time. You'll be far too big for mein three years. I was saying 10 years before, but
it sounds like you're on track to do well in threeyears. And before you leave, so… I am going to be
(41:14):
releasing this at the same time as Björn’s episodeis coming out. So have you been in touch with him?
He has been stuck in Sweden the whole time.MZ: Yeah. I haven't been in
contact with him for ages.OF: Yeah, he's stuck out. But
I hope he'll come back soon.MZ: Yeah, hopefully.
OF (41:27):
Well, here is a message to you, Björn, when you do come back…
MZ (41:30):
Please visit us! OF
it here. Thanks again, Maple.MZ: Thank you, Oscar.
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