September 24, 2019 • 34 mins
Today’s episode is a special one, I’m usually trying to introduce aspects of the lives people lead in China without going over too much familiar territory to China experts. But with today’s episode, my role is reversed. My guest today is Michael Zee, who is a social media influencer with a global fan base on Instagram. However, Instagram is very difficult to access from within China, so there might be listeners to this in China who haven’t ever seen Instagram, let alone come across Michael’s account. Michael’s background is as an educator, and there are other parts of his story that will lead you to conclude, as I did, that it’s no accident that he has become the biggest and best Food Instagrammer in China today. We discuss the fluctuating nature of national cuisines, the cultural connections between Shanghai and Liverpool, and the glamorous (and decidedly unglamorous) life of a full-time social media influencer in China. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:23 - Part 1 20:26 - Part 2 29:37 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]MZ: It's such a
(00:02):
complex thing, this character. Itcan mean tasty things. And it can
mean rotten women who are obsessed withgay men. Or it could just mean tofu.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
(00:23):
Today's episode is a special one. The tightropeI'm usually walking in this series is to introduce
to the outside world aspects of the livespeople lead in China, without going over too
much familiar territory to those people whoalready are experts, especially the Chinese
themselves. But with today's episode, my roleis reversed. My guest today is Michael Zee,
(00:45):
who is a social media influencer. That much isuniversally understood. But despite the fact
that Michael is based in China, his fan base isglobal. So a lot of his time is spent engaging
with people outside of China. And our conversationreflects this - much of it describes the life
of a social media personality anywhere in theworld, not just specifically in China. Secondly,
(01:07):
the platform he uses is Instagram, whichis actually very difficult to access from
within China. So there might be listeners tothis in China who haven't even seen Instagram,
let alone Michael’s account. And if that wasn'tenough, karma is being realigned after I used
the American term ‘cotton candy’ in last week'sepisode with Gina - Michael is the first other
British person that I've interviewed. So theremight be moments where both of us lapse into
(01:31):
British slang, and that might further confuse theEnglish-speaking Chinese audience. I'm hoping this
won't be the case, I think the couple of times wedo it, the context is pretty clear. Despite all
that - and listeners in China, I'm addressing thisto you - you will definitely enjoy this episode,
I promise. And about Michael himself, soMichael's background is as an educator,
(01:51):
and there are other parts of his story that willlead you to conclude - as I did - that it's no
accident that he has become the biggest and bestfood Instagrammer in China today. You may not be
a foodie yourself, but you will want to hearthe comments he makes about Sichuan chilies,
Italian tomatoes and Irish potatoes; you willenjoy the way in which Michael's family story
illustrates the connection between Shanghai andLiverpool; and you will also be intrigued to hear
(02:16):
about the glamorous - and very unglamorous - lifeof a full time social media influencer in China.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming today.
MZ (02:25):
My pleasure. OF
Michael is an Instagrammer and an author.MZ: Thanks, yeah.
OF (02:31):
And I do obviously want to ask about your object. But before I do,
what is your Instagram account?MZ: My Instagram handle is @symmetrybreakfast.
@symmetrybreakfast. MZ
word. And I started this account 2012-ish, 2013.And if you go onto it now, you'll see thousands of
(02:55):
pictures of symmetrically arranged breakfasts.OF: Well, that's a very succinct introduction,
I appreciate that. Let's of coursego into that later. But firstly,
what object have you brought in that in someway describes what you do here in China?
MZ (03:06):
So my object is a ring. And this is a new ring that I've been given as a gift, maybe three
or four months ago by my dad. And it's a replicaof my grandfather's signet ring. And most people
are surprised when they see my face that I'mactually a quarter Shanghainese. Last year,
(03:26):
my brother had our grandfather's ring remade,recast, in Liverpool. And I then, a year later,
got given one as a gift from my dad. Yeah, thering to me is kind of interesting, because my
grandfather left Shanghai in the 1930s. It's kindof like an interesting link to his life here,
and how much the city's changed. And yeah, Iwear it with quite a lot of pride now. And I've
(03:47):
kind of got very used to wearing a ring. I don'teven wear a watch. So this is the first little
piece of jewellery I’ve ever had.OF: And talk me through what
it actually says then.MZ: So it says his name
in reverse. It's a signet ring, soyou could dip into into ink or wax.
And it's his name in Chinese, 徐宝山 [XúBǎoshān]. The styling is very unusual,
(04:09):
there’s almost something Celtic almost about it.OF: You mentioned just there the Liverpool
connection. So what's the connectionthen, between Shanghai and Liverpool?
If you go to Liverpool, there's a lot of Shanghainese people. And I think in the period
that my grandfather left during the war withJapan, he got on a boat, went to Liverpool for
work - it was his job - arrived in this other cityon the other side of the world, and thought “Oh,
(04:34):
I actually have probably quite a few friendshere.” Or contacts, you know, extended friends
of friends. And he just stayed. He was on a shipgoing back and forth Shanghai-Liverpool - or
within Asia, should I say - and then the shipwas reassigned to the Americas, and he lost his
job. And then after that, a couple of years goby, and he then set up some Chinese restaurants
(04:59):
in Liverpool. And that was the kind of legacythat I was born into, many decades later. So I
grew up in Chinese chippies in Huyton, which is asuburb of Liverpool. And if anyone knows Huyton at
all from the mid 90s, and remembers Peter’sFish & Chips on Finch lane, Peter’s my dad.
OF (05:22):
Well, there is an interesting through-line, of course, because you have adjusted your career
almost in a similar way. Like, you weren'tby background anything to do with food,
and now your career is also connected with food.MZ: Yeah, there was a very casual link. You know,
my dad was a cook, a chef, but I have noprofessional training in food. My background
(05:48):
is actually photography and education. Istudied photography and then became a school
teacher. And then I went to museums.OF: So what is @symmetrybreakfast?
MZ (05:59):
So if you go to your phone, if you launch Instagram now, and have a look
at @symmetrybreakfast, it's just lots and lots ofpictures of food, arranged symmetrically. And then
if you start looking carefully and reading theposts, there's a lot about exploring different
cultures, different countries, travelling, tryingto go deep within the stereotypes of what cultures
(06:22):
are. But then also trying to understand thatculture and cuisines are not fixed. They change
rapidly. The cultures that we consider authentic,and almost timeless, like Chinese culture,
ancient culture, is actually pretty new.And you look at cuisines like Sichuan food,
(06:44):
and it's only in the last 3-400 years that they'vehad chilies. They came from Mexico. And so when
you really kind of think about this… Cultureslike Italian food, you know, pomodoro,
and everything's with tomato. They're from theNew World, in the last 3-400 years. Or potatoes,
(07:06):
you think about how Irish culture, Britishculture, has formed around this potato. And
actually, it's an exotic new ingredient fromthe New World. But we completely forget that
recent history. And actually, we forget what ourcultures must have been like without these things,
that we consider cornerstones of identity.OF: So how did you get from that museum piece
(07:29):
to now doing an Instagram account full time?MZ: Well, the museum I was actually working at
was the Victorian & Albert Museum in London.And I was there for almost four years. I was
working on the school's programme. Mark- who’s now my husband - at the time,
we'd recently moved in together. And he hada very busy job, he was working at Burberry,
(07:51):
and designing their men's runway show. And so hehad really exhausting deadlines, and would work
very long hours. And some evenings, I wouldn't seehim. And so I was making a little bit of an effort
to make breakfast nice. He was the breakfastguy. When we first met, I used to just drink
coffee and smoke rollies. He was more like, at theweekend, “Oh I like sit down, have a nice spread,
(08:19):
you know, make a nice coffee, put some music on”.And he really taught me that ‘slow down’ attitude.
We bought a dining table together and startedtaking photos because my whole life I’ve been
taking pictures. And then it was Mark's boss thatsaid “I really liked these images, I think I think
they're really interesting. How about you, ratherthan having them on your personal Instagram,
(08:40):
put them on to a separate channel”. And this waslong before we had social media influencers. And
so I had no concept of "I'm going to do this, forthis amount of time.” There was no long-term goal.
It was just me making breakfasts for Mark. Andsix months go by, and suddenly I went to a house
(09:05):
party and one of the girls there was an editor forBuzzFeed. And she wrote a little piece about me:
'15 Perfectly Pleasing Symmetrical Breakfasts’.And I gained maybe 1,000 followers. And then a
couple more months go by, and I'm in a pub for afriend's birthday and she is a shoe designer for
(09:25):
lots of very famous celebrities, mainly peoplelike Lady Gaga and Kylie and Kat Von D. And she
follows me, she said “I love your photos, I’llfollow you”. And it turns out that Kat Von D saw
my friend like these pictures. And so Kat Von Dre-posted a picture of mine saying “I wish I was
(09:47):
inside this girl's brain”. And in one evening, Igained 20,000 followers. And then it kept creeping
up. And then a week later 30,000. A month laterI had 50,000. And then Jamie Oliver featured me,
he posted nine images and then it jumped upanother 70,000 in a day. And then The Guardian
(10:10):
approached me to do a piece, and they had afour-page spread in the weekend magazine, and
it went up another 50,000+. And it just kept goinglike that, huge leaps, because I got featured in
different magazines, or other real celebrities.OF: Wow. And all the while you were still
working in the museum at this point.MZ: Yeah, every day I would get up
(10:30):
at 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning, makebreakfast, go to work, and teach kids about
Ming vases. I remember the first time we wereever invited by a restaurant, “Would you like
to come and have breakfast in our restaurant?” Itwas like “Oh my god. We’ve actually been invited
by a restaurant”. And Mark was like “Wow, cool”.Things like that just still amaze me. And so it
(10:56):
just kept growing. And the next thing was, I wasthen approached by my now agent to write a book.
And then four or five months go by, and I think“Mmm, OK, maybe I should think about it”. And
then I had another meeting. And she said “You needto write a proposal.” I was like “OK, what does
(11:19):
that look like?” So she just gave me five or sixother people's proposals, and said “Have a look at
these, see the formula, the layout, and come backto me”. So a month later, I send her this 80-page
proposal. And then there's a bidding war for thebook. And six publishers are fighting over it. And
then suddenly I'm able to quit my job.OF: Hmm. What is the everyday
(11:40):
of being an Instagrammer?MZ: Well, a lot of my everyday
is admin. A surprising amount of admin, and Excel,and emailing. There's a lot of that. And planning
for events in the future that maybe only last acouple of hours, but there's actually weeks of
(12:01):
planning. And I think anyone who works in eventscan appreciate this. I found that in the early
days of social media, there was a big surge ofeveryone just being social media mad. And now it's
petered out. And it's become a little bit moredifficult in terms of translating social media
(12:23):
engagement into real clicks, or people turning upto your event, or sales. Everyone's waiting for
the next app that will allow growth. Instagram isbillions and billions of people now. And actually,
how do you get your voice out as an expert,someone that can be trusted to give good advice?
(12:45):
I think we went through this phase of socialmedia influencers being mouthpieces for brands,
and being very shady about how they declared thoserelationships. Now I follow a lot of people and
I think “Well, you’ve just gone there becauseyou've been paid. I've been to that restaurant,
(13:06):
it’s not very good. I wouldn't promote that”. Andso I think people are now looking for these… And
I hate the word ‘authenticity’, because it'sit's a bit loaded, and that's a-whole-nother
discussion. But people are looking for thesereputable voices. You want to be more honest,
but you also want to be nice. Becausewe've all developed our personalities
(13:30):
over the last four or five years being nice.And actually then to be mean about something
is incredibly hard and off-character. But it'seasy just to say nothing, in some instances,
when you don't like something. And there'sbeen times that I've just not posted anything.
OF (13:47):
Right. MZ
you have to understand your powers, in a sense.You know, I've got 770,000 followers, if I say
something bad, it could actually have damagingrepercussions to someone's business. It could
actually shut them down. So there's a wholespectrum of how you behave. And then, you know,
(14:07):
I've often said to Mark “In public, we have tobehave.” He’s like “OK.” Because the number of
times… people don't approach us, but they willtake a picture of us eating across a restaurant,
and then send it to me afterwards. There's somany eyes watching you, everything you do, and
every time you eat anything. Now the pressure’sto go vegan. This is a big trend in social media,
(14:31):
especially food. But also there's you know, ‘don'twear leather’ and so on, and ‘don't fly too much’
and ‘don't have children' and ‘recycle everythingand use less’. Then you end up diverting off onto
different paths away from actually what youwant to do. You're trying to cover all bases,
trying to please everyone all the time, and itbecomes very stressful. And I think a lot of time,
(14:55):
people don't realise that Instagrammerswith big accounts are actually also just
normal people. I don't have staff, I don'thave assistants, I don't have editors,
I don't have a manager. I have an agent in Londonwho manages jobs, but she doesn’t manage me.
So it really is just you. MZ
it's made me very tough. And also quite cynicalas well. I often get emails like “Hi, we'd really
(15:22):
love to have a meeting”. And I’m like “Can youjust tell me what it is in an email. And if
you can't do it in an email, I'm not justinterested in meeting you.” I'm not gonna
come meet you for a jolly. And so you becomevery blunt, which is also something you always
have to be aware of. So it is an interestingworld. And it's a job that I've created myself,
(15:43):
there is no job description. And it's not likesomething that someone could else could do after
me. I can't step down off this role.OF: But what I like hearing is that,
even when you have a successful Instagram account- which a lot of people are aiming for, and they
spend their days trying to do it - it's not allroses. And I think people need to hear that,
(16:03):
because I think they can stress themselvesout and they can do inauthentic things.
MZ (16:07):
And I know so many people who… I've got friends that message me saying “Oh, I posted
two hours ago, it only has 16 likes, can you goand like it.” And I’m like “OK, fine. If it makes
you happy, I’ll totally do it”. It's like yourfriend saying “I'm really upset, can you comfort
me?” Yeah, of course, but it's like comfortingthem with a drug, which is dopamine through
(16:28):
social media. And so it's kind of been “OK, I'lldo it. It's fine". But you know, I've had times
when I’m like “OK, it didn't get as many likesas I would have hoped for." Whatever. You know,
and it's taken me a long time to learn that.OF: Well, that's the cynical side taken care
of…. What about the things that you stillderive pleasure from? Because obviously,
(16:51):
you are still doing it. Like, whichare the things that make you still
wake up and go “Oh, wow. Yeah, this is good”?MZ: When I do events and I meet people, and they
come say hello to me, and they say “I’ve followedyou from the beginning”. And they know things that
I've forgotten about that. Like “Oh, that timeyou went to this restaurant” or this country
or whatever. And I’m like “God, you rememberthat? How crazy!” Like they really really love
(17:19):
the concept, they love to see me and Mark, theylove to learn about the things that I'm interested
in. Those are the moments that I really, reallylike. It's really astonishing how social media
has given people that. Traditionally you wouldnever cross paths - because of various reasons,
(17:41):
you know - but now you meet up at these places,you go for drinks or dinner, and you meet through
the most bizarre things. And then you’re bestfriends. But this illustrates the point perfectly,
that social media as a way to have real-worldengagement, in terms of meeting real people,
(18:06):
is the formula of success. If you use social mediato make new friends, that's great. But if you
use social media to isolate yourself, it can beextremely damaging. So it's how do you use social
media? It's like gamers who play games online allday. And they have these friends that they play
(18:27):
games with across the world, and they have theseavatars. And then you hear these stories of them
travelling across the world to meet their friendwho lives in a different country. And they’re best
friends, because they've been playing computergames for 5-6 years, never met. And then they’re
like “We should actually meet in real life”.And that’s an amazing thing about social media,
and technology. It should bring you together.Imagine never being able to meet this person
(18:50):
in real life, that would be horrible. But yeah,these people who meet through computer gaming,
I think is an amazing story. I think this is whatsocial media should always try and facilitate.
OF (18:59):
And we've talked very much in the abstract in terms of geography throughout this conversation.
You know, we could have been talking aboutyour life in London, we could have been
talking about someone else's life in the US.So what about your life here in China? How
have you managed to meld your online socialmedia life with your real life here in China?
MZ (19:18):
The way my Instagram has shifted is to explore as much of China and its food and its places as
possible. To be this food correspondent that goesand sees a caviar farm in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province;
or goes to a tea plantation in 云南 [Yúnnán];or goes to see this old town somewhere,
(19:41):
or this Water Town, or a restaurant on the Bund.And people really appreciate that window into
China that's not political. And sometimes it'sjust the street food, and sometimes just everyday
life. But sometimes it's to see something beingmanufactured or farmed or grown. And then it gives
(20:02):
people a real understanding of how diverse Chinais. I think that's how I’ve pivoted my Instagram
into becoming more exploratory of China.OF: Michael, thank you. We're now
going to move on to Part 2.MZ: Oh, yes. Great, Part 2.
(20:26):
[Part 2]OF: So Question
1. What is your favourite China-related fact?MZ: That 你好 [nǐ hǎo] doesn’t mean ‘hello’. I think
this is the interesting thing about translation,that we always want to have equals, equivalents,
of words. “This word in my language means thisword in your language”. And actually 你好 [nǐ hǎo]
(20:49):
is ‘you good.’ Literally, ‘you good.’ And it'simplied there's a question. Whereas ‘hello’ is a
kind of acknowledgment of ‘I'm here’. But I'm notasking for your recognition. Hello. In the sense
of, you can just say “Hello” to an empty room. Butyou would never say 你好 [nǐ hǎo] to an empty room.
And I think this is the interesting thing about alot of Chinese words, and a lot of translation and
(21:15):
linguistics in general, is that it's not always soneat and tidy. 你好 [nǐ hǎo] is the closest thing to
’hello’, but it's not ‘hello’. Yeah.OF: Nice. Do you have a favourite
word or phrase in Chinese?MZ: Yeah. I really like the word 腐 [fǔ], as
in 豆腐 [dòufu]. And in Chinese, it means ‘rotten’.But in another sense, that word can also be
(21:42):
something that's delicious. You’ve got 腐乳 [fǔrǔ],which is like ‘rotten breast milk’, or ‘a mother's
milk rotten’. And actually in Chinese culture,this word is used a lot of times for things that
are just preserved or pickled or fermented. Andactually in a Western sense ‘rotten’ is always
(22:05):
pretty bad. Rotten eggs or a rotten person.The word ‘rotten’, there's always a negative
connotation. Whereas in Chinese culture, it'snot necessarily bad. It's such a complex thing,
this character. It can mean tasty things. And itcan mean rotten women who are obsessed with gay
men. Or it could just mean tofu.OF: Wow, OK, that one is hard to unpack.
(22:30):
Yeah. OF
your favourite destination within China?MZ: 千岛湖 [Qiāndǎo hú], ‘Thousand Island
Lake.’ It’s in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province, about twoand a half-ish hours on the train from Shanghai.
And it's a man-made lake. It was created in1959 when they constructed a dam. And now
(22:50):
it's one of the cleanest lakes in the world. AndI went for my birthday. And it was so beautiful.
OF (22:58):
OK, next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least?MZ: For both, it’s old people in pyjamas. Now
I'm slightly not fazed by it. But it's stillsurprising. And I find it surprising that it's
(23:18):
pretty much only Shanghai that does this.When you go to other cities, Chinese people
do not do this. And I think when you seethe 90-year-old man carrying his trash out,
and he's in his giant underwear with his slipperson, and no other clothes, it's just… I don't know.
(23:39):
I'm shocked that I'm not shocked anymore.OF: Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?MZ: I think that the biggest surprise now
is just how much ahead of the Western world Chinais. Everyone that comes to visit me, they’re so
(23:59):
shocked. They’re, you know, “Oh, old CommunistChina has better apps, better taxi services…”
Better all these things. And it's so easy tojust click your fingers and you get something.
Where's your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just generally hang out?
MZ (24:14):
One of my new favourites is Heritage by Madison, which is a lovely new restaurant down
at the Bund Finance Center, next to the lovelyThomas Heatherwick building that moves. And it's
Austin Hu, and probably most people would knowhim as the guy behind The Diner’. He’s now left
that group and he's opened another restaurantdown by the river. And it's excellent. You know,
(24:40):
it's Western casual fine dining withlots of Chinese influences. Really nice
wine list. Really inexpensive. Stunningsetting. World-class service. Nailed it.
OF (24:55):
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
MZ (24:59):
Best purchase is a beautiful chair from Taobao. And Taobao is an amazing online
platform. For those of you who don't know Chinesee-commerce, you have a direct link with a factory,
(25:20):
or the vendor or the individual selling. Itdoesn't come from like Amazon.com as such. And
so you can have this conversation with someone,like I did with a sofa. You don’t just click the
colour you want, they send you the swatch and youcan have this long conversation, “Oh actually can
I have it 10 centimetres longer.? Can I have ita little bit deeper? Can I have it in blue? And
(25:40):
also can I have it in this fabric?” And so youcan really have this conversation. We had this
chair made, which is admittedly a knock-off ofFinn Juhl, who is a very famous Scandinavian
designer. And the original chair is something like€10-14,000, and we had a knock-off commissioned in
(26:01):
beautiful soft baby pink leather, for £500 pounds.OF: What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
My favourite WeChat sticker is this little girl that saying ‘bye.’ It is the
perfect way to end the conversation.OF: I'm looking at it now. Yes,
you know who this is, right?MZ: I know she's famous for something,
(26:23):
but I don’t know what.OF: This is Honey Boo Boo.
Oh that’s it, Honey Boo Boo, yeah. OF
Oh, so I've actually never done KTV in China. I've only ever done karaoke in Japan.
My last memory of karaoke in Japan was thisenormous skyscraper that was like 10 floors
(26:50):
of rooms. And they had costumes, you could picka costume to wear whilst you sing. And so I was
a beer bottle, a giant beer bottle. And Markwas wearing the Björk swan dress. And we were
with a big group of people from France. AndI remember this French team, they were like,
(27:13):
"Oh, we're gonna be so good at this”. Andthen when we actually got in the room,
they were really bad. And really kind of like “Oh,you guys sing”. And I remember putting on Nirvana.
And they just went wild. And I've got a video ofthem had head-banging to Nirvana. It was Nirvana,
‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’.OF: OK. And finally,
(27:35):
what other general information sourcesor China-related media do you rely on?
So my favourite is Sixth Tone. And they are a Shanghai-based English-language Chinese long-read
platform. They do these long reads, and they tellyou how long you need to read them, 6-20 minutes.
(28:00):
And they're on all sorts of subjects. And Ithink one of their most read - but also one
of my favourites - is the history of hot water inChina. And why do Chinese people drink hot water.
OF (28:11):
That sounds great. I think you've mentioned that before to me in the past. And I always
promised that I'd go and check it out, but Ihaven't done so yet. So you've you've nudged
me again now. Actually, the first person who wasin this series, Philippe Gas, that was one of the
things that still mystified him about life inChina, that he's always offered hot water. So
I'm gonna have to send him that link.MZ: It's a recent invention.
Really? MZ
(28:31):
Amazing. MZ
Well, thank you once again, Michael. MZ
Before you leave, I ask the same question to everyone who is sitting in that seat, and that is,
for the next season of Mosaic of China,who do you recommend that I interview next?
MZ (28:44):
I would like to hear more from my friend, Crystyl Mo. And she is someone I actually
only met recently. And she is the chair ofAsia's 50 best restaurants. And she's also
an amazing connector of people. She's extremelyeloquent. And she's just been someone that I’ve
(29:06):
immediately clicked with. I remember that wemet recently at an event - I won’t say which
brand - and we both left with a kind of verycynical view of the situation. And we were
kind of like “Have they just tried to spoon-feedus this propaganda?” And we both kind of clicked
and we thought “Wow, you’ve come to exactlythe same conclusion as I have”. And I think
(29:29):
that's where we kind of struck up our friendship.OF: Excellent. I look forward to meeting Crystyl.
Thank you so much, Michael.MZ: Thank you again.
[Outro]OF: 你好 [Nǐ hǎo].
I liked what Michael said about the phrase 你好[nǐ hǎo], you definitely wouldn't say it to an
empty room. In fact, I must say I don't reallyhear it very often at all in natural speech in
China. It's used to foreigners because the Chineseknow that we understand it. But when I'm greeting
(29:54):
people in my neighbourhood, I'm much more likelyto hear “吃了吗？ [chīle ma?]’ - “have you eaten?”
Or “去哪里? [Qù nǎlǐ?]” which is “Where are yougoing?” Those are the substitutes for ‘hello’
that I'm more familiar with these days. So incase someone Chinese ever asks you “Have you
eaten?” or “Where are you going?”, you mightthink that they're being bizarrely intrusive,
but actually they're just saying ‘hello’. I wish Icould have heard this advice myself ten years ago,
(30:15):
I lived for six years in Singapore, and Iheard this said in English all the time,
and I don't think I ever figured it outuntil living in China many years later.
What I've particularly enjoyed about gettingto know Michael over the last few months is
that he confounds the expectations of what youmight imagine a social media influencer to be.
I would have always assumed that they wouldbe vapid and superficial and narcissistic.
(30:37):
But Michael's combination of skills from theworld of teaching and museums on the one hand,
mixed in with his skills in photography andfood on the other, make him to be a much more
thoughtful and deliberate person than you mightotherwise have given him credit for. Speaking
of which, there was a lot of information in thisweek's episode, so let me smash through this as
quickly as possible. Firstly, there are many, manyconnections between Shanghai and Liverpool that we
(31:02):
didn't get into. Just have a quick look online,and you can see the several landmarks that look
almost identical in both cities. Shamefully,I've never once been to Liverpool - even though
my cousin studied there for three years - so it'sgone to the top of my list for places that I must
try and visit next time I'm in the UK for longenough. Speaking of the UK, I'm pretty sure we
didn't use too much slang in this interview.I only noticed two examples. One was the word
(31:25):
‘chippie’, which means ‘a fish & chip shop’. Andthe other was a reference to smoking ‘rollies’,
which are roll-your-own-cigarettes. The referenceto rotten women, or ‘腐女 [fǔnǚ]’, that Michael made
in passing, is about a subculture of women inChina who are obsessed with gay men. I found an
interesting BBC article about this phenomenon,with a reference to Sherlock Holmes actually.
(31:47):
I won't say any more about that, I posted thephoto on social media, so please take a look
there. We're on @mosaicofchina_ on Instagramand @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or you can add
me on WeChat with my ID (31:57):
mosaicofchina and I'll add you to the group there. The other images I
posted include, of course, Michael's object, thevery handsome signet ring. That's got his father's
name on it, which is 徐宝山 [Xú Bǎoshān]. And 徐 [Xú]is Michael's family name, it was anglicised to
Zee because this was the closest to how it soundsin the Shanghainese dialect. So there you go, the
(32:21):
difference between ‘Xú’ and ‘Zee’, just in caseyou thought learning Mandarin wasn't difficult
enough. Then there is the Honey Boo Boo WeChatsticker; there's the Victoria and Albert Museum in
London, where Michael used to work; Michael alsomentioned Kat Von D and Jamie Oliver as two people
who amplified his social media status early on inhis Instagram career, so there's a photo of both
(32:42):
of them. Kat Von D is an American tattoo artist,and Jamie Oliver is an English chef. There is a
photo of Michael dressed up as a beer bottle forJapanese karaoke; there’s Heritage by Madison, the
Shanghai restaurant that he recommended; there’s千岛湖 [Qiāndǎo hú], which is 千岛 [Qiāndǎo] Lake or
‘Thousand Island Lake’, the place that Michaelsaid was his favourite destination within China.
(33:04):
It looks amazing, I don't know why I haven'tbeen there before. There is a photo of the pink
knock-off chair that he had made on Taobao; thereis a photo of an old man walking in Pyjamas on the
streets of Shanghai. This is actually a photothat I posted on my own personal Instagram, and
it was back in October 2016, when it was still anovelty for me. Again, this seems to be something
(33:27):
that happens mainly in Shanghai, but please letme know if you know it happens elsewhere in China.
Thank you for listening this far. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs Editing by Milo de Prieto,
artwork by Danny Newell, and China technicalsupport from Alston Gong. Please like,
comment, share, do all those things. If you don't,
I'm going to find you I'm going to hunt you,and I'm going to beg and cry hysterically.
[Trailer]MZ: It's such a
(00:02):
complex thing, this character. Itcan mean tasty things. And it can
mean rotten women who are obsessed withgay men. Or it could just mean tofu.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
(00:23):
Today's episode is a special one. The tightropeI'm usually walking in this series is to introduce
to the outside world aspects of the livespeople lead in China, without going over too
much familiar territory to those people whoalready are experts, especially the Chinese
themselves. But with today's episode, my roleis reversed. My guest today is Michael Zee,
(00:45):
who is a social media influencer. That much isuniversally understood. But despite the fact
that Michael is based in China, his fan base isglobal. So a lot of his time is spent engaging
with people outside of China. And our conversationreflects this - much of it describes the life
of a social media personality anywhere in theworld, not just specifically in China. Secondly,
(01:07):
the platform he uses is Instagram, whichis actually very difficult to access from
within China. So there might be listeners tothis in China who haven't even seen Instagram,
let alone Michael’s account. And if that wasn'tenough, karma is being realigned after I used
the American term ‘cotton candy’ in last week'sepisode with Gina - Michael is the first other
British person that I've interviewed. So theremight be moments where both of us lapse into
(01:31):
British slang, and that might further confuse theEnglish-speaking Chinese audience. I'm hoping this
won't be the case, I think the couple of times wedo it, the context is pretty clear. Despite all
that - and listeners in China, I'm addressing thisto you - you will definitely enjoy this episode,
I promise. And about Michael himself, soMichael's background is as an educator,
(01:51):
and there are other parts of his story that willlead you to conclude - as I did - that it's no
accident that he has become the biggest and bestfood Instagrammer in China today. You may not be
a foodie yourself, but you will want to hearthe comments he makes about Sichuan chilies,
Italian tomatoes and Irish potatoes; you willenjoy the way in which Michael's family story
illustrates the connection between Shanghai andLiverpool; and you will also be intrigued to hear
(02:16):
about the glamorous - and very unglamorous - lifeof a full time social media influencer in China.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much for coming today.
MZ (02:25):
My pleasure. OF
Michael is an Instagrammer and an author.MZ: Thanks, yeah.
OF (02:31):
And I do obviously want to ask about your object. But before I do,
what is your Instagram account?MZ: My Instagram handle is @symmetrybreakfast.
@symmetrybreakfast. MZ
word. And I started this account 2012-ish, 2013.And if you go onto it now, you'll see thousands of
(02:55):
pictures of symmetrically arranged breakfasts.OF: Well, that's a very succinct introduction,
I appreciate that. Let's of coursego into that later. But firstly,
what object have you brought in that in someway describes what you do here in China?
MZ (03:06):
So my object is a ring. And this is a new ring that I've been given as a gift, maybe three
or four months ago by my dad. And it's a replicaof my grandfather's signet ring. And most people
are surprised when they see my face that I'mactually a quarter Shanghainese. Last year,
(03:26):
my brother had our grandfather's ring remade,recast, in Liverpool. And I then, a year later,
got given one as a gift from my dad. Yeah, thering to me is kind of interesting, because my
grandfather left Shanghai in the 1930s. It's kindof like an interesting link to his life here,
and how much the city's changed. And yeah, Iwear it with quite a lot of pride now. And I've
(03:47):
kind of got very used to wearing a ring. I don'teven wear a watch. So this is the first little
piece of jewellery I’ve ever had.OF: And talk me through what
it actually says then.MZ: So it says his name
in reverse. It's a signet ring, soyou could dip into into ink or wax.
And it's his name in Chinese, 徐宝山 [XúBǎoshān]. The styling is very unusual,
(04:09):
there’s almost something Celtic almost about it.OF: You mentioned just there the Liverpool
connection. So what's the connectionthen, between Shanghai and Liverpool?
If you go to Liverpool, there's a lot of Shanghainese people. And I think in the period
that my grandfather left during the war withJapan, he got on a boat, went to Liverpool for
work - it was his job - arrived in this other cityon the other side of the world, and thought “Oh,
(04:34):
I actually have probably quite a few friendshere.” Or contacts, you know, extended friends
of friends. And he just stayed. He was on a shipgoing back and forth Shanghai-Liverpool - or
within Asia, should I say - and then the shipwas reassigned to the Americas, and he lost his
job. And then after that, a couple of years goby, and he then set up some Chinese restaurants
(04:59):
in Liverpool. And that was the kind of legacythat I was born into, many decades later. So I
grew up in Chinese chippies in Huyton, which is asuburb of Liverpool. And if anyone knows Huyton at
all from the mid 90s, and remembers Peter’sFish & Chips on Finch lane, Peter’s my dad.
OF (05:22):
Well, there is an interesting through-line, of course, because you have adjusted your career
almost in a similar way. Like, you weren'tby background anything to do with food,
and now your career is also connected with food.MZ: Yeah, there was a very casual link. You know,
my dad was a cook, a chef, but I have noprofessional training in food. My background
(05:48):
is actually photography and education. Istudied photography and then became a school
teacher. And then I went to museums.OF: So what is @symmetrybreakfast?
MZ (05:59):
So if you go to your phone, if you launch Instagram now, and have a look
at @symmetrybreakfast, it's just lots and lots ofpictures of food, arranged symmetrically. And then
if you start looking carefully and reading theposts, there's a lot about exploring different
cultures, different countries, travelling, tryingto go deep within the stereotypes of what cultures
(06:22):
are. But then also trying to understand thatculture and cuisines are not fixed. They change
rapidly. The cultures that we consider authentic,and almost timeless, like Chinese culture,
ancient culture, is actually pretty new.And you look at cuisines like Sichuan food,
(06:44):
and it's only in the last 3-400 years that they'vehad chilies. They came from Mexico. And so when
you really kind of think about this… Cultureslike Italian food, you know, pomodoro,
and everything's with tomato. They're from theNew World, in the last 3-400 years. Or potatoes,
(07:06):
you think about how Irish culture, Britishculture, has formed around this potato. And
actually, it's an exotic new ingredient fromthe New World. But we completely forget that
recent history. And actually, we forget what ourcultures must have been like without these things,
that we consider cornerstones of identity.OF: So how did you get from that museum piece
(07:29):
to now doing an Instagram account full time?MZ: Well, the museum I was actually working at
was the Victorian & Albert Museum in London.And I was there for almost four years. I was
working on the school's programme. Mark- who’s now my husband - at the time,
we'd recently moved in together. And he hada very busy job, he was working at Burberry,
(07:51):
and designing their men's runway show. And so hehad really exhausting deadlines, and would work
very long hours. And some evenings, I wouldn't seehim. And so I was making a little bit of an effort
to make breakfast nice. He was the breakfastguy. When we first met, I used to just drink
coffee and smoke rollies. He was more like, at theweekend, “Oh I like sit down, have a nice spread,
(08:19):
you know, make a nice coffee, put some music on”.And he really taught me that ‘slow down’ attitude.
We bought a dining table together and startedtaking photos because my whole life I’ve been
taking pictures. And then it was Mark's boss thatsaid “I really liked these images, I think I think
they're really interesting. How about you, ratherthan having them on your personal Instagram,
(08:40):
put them on to a separate channel”. And this waslong before we had social media influencers. And
so I had no concept of "I'm going to do this, forthis amount of time.” There was no long-term goal.
It was just me making breakfasts for Mark. Andsix months go by, and suddenly I went to a house
(09:05):
party and one of the girls there was an editor forBuzzFeed. And she wrote a little piece about me:
'15 Perfectly Pleasing Symmetrical Breakfasts’.And I gained maybe 1,000 followers. And then a
couple more months go by, and I'm in a pub for afriend's birthday and she is a shoe designer for
(09:25):
lots of very famous celebrities, mainly peoplelike Lady Gaga and Kylie and Kat Von D. And she
follows me, she said “I love your photos, I’llfollow you”. And it turns out that Kat Von D saw
my friend like these pictures. And so Kat Von Dre-posted a picture of mine saying “I wish I was
(09:47):
inside this girl's brain”. And in one evening, Igained 20,000 followers. And then it kept creeping
up. And then a week later 30,000. A month laterI had 50,000. And then Jamie Oliver featured me,
he posted nine images and then it jumped upanother 70,000 in a day. And then The Guardian
(10:10):
approached me to do a piece, and they had afour-page spread in the weekend magazine, and
it went up another 50,000+. And it just kept goinglike that, huge leaps, because I got featured in
different magazines, or other real celebrities.OF: Wow. And all the while you were still
working in the museum at this point.MZ: Yeah, every day I would get up
(10:30):
at 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning, makebreakfast, go to work, and teach kids about
Ming vases. I remember the first time we wereever invited by a restaurant, “Would you like
to come and have breakfast in our restaurant?” Itwas like “Oh my god. We’ve actually been invited
by a restaurant”. And Mark was like “Wow, cool”.Things like that just still amaze me. And so it
(10:56):
just kept growing. And the next thing was, I wasthen approached by my now agent to write a book.
And then four or five months go by, and I think“Mmm, OK, maybe I should think about it”. And
then I had another meeting. And she said “You needto write a proposal.” I was like “OK, what does
(11:19):
that look like?” So she just gave me five or sixother people's proposals, and said “Have a look at
these, see the formula, the layout, and come backto me”. So a month later, I send her this 80-page
proposal. And then there's a bidding war for thebook. And six publishers are fighting over it. And
then suddenly I'm able to quit my job.OF: Hmm. What is the everyday
(11:40):
of being an Instagrammer?MZ: Well, a lot of my everyday
is admin. A surprising amount of admin, and Excel,and emailing. There's a lot of that. And planning
for events in the future that maybe only last acouple of hours, but there's actually weeks of
(12:01):
planning. And I think anyone who works in eventscan appreciate this. I found that in the early
days of social media, there was a big surge ofeveryone just being social media mad. And now it's
petered out. And it's become a little bit moredifficult in terms of translating social media
(12:23):
engagement into real clicks, or people turning upto your event, or sales. Everyone's waiting for
the next app that will allow growth. Instagram isbillions and billions of people now. And actually,
how do you get your voice out as an expert,someone that can be trusted to give good advice?
(12:45):
I think we went through this phase of socialmedia influencers being mouthpieces for brands,
and being very shady about how they declared thoserelationships. Now I follow a lot of people and
I think “Well, you’ve just gone there becauseyou've been paid. I've been to that restaurant,
(13:06):
it’s not very good. I wouldn't promote that”. Andso I think people are now looking for these… And
I hate the word ‘authenticity’, because it'sit's a bit loaded, and that's a-whole-nother
discussion. But people are looking for thesereputable voices. You want to be more honest,
but you also want to be nice. Becausewe've all developed our personalities
(13:30):
over the last four or five years being nice.And actually then to be mean about something
is incredibly hard and off-character. But it'seasy just to say nothing, in some instances,
when you don't like something. And there'sbeen times that I've just not posted anything.
OF (13:47):
Right. MZ
you have to understand your powers, in a sense.You know, I've got 770,000 followers, if I say
something bad, it could actually have damagingrepercussions to someone's business. It could
actually shut them down. So there's a wholespectrum of how you behave. And then, you know,
(14:07):
I've often said to Mark “In public, we have tobehave.” He’s like “OK.” Because the number of
times… people don't approach us, but they willtake a picture of us eating across a restaurant,
and then send it to me afterwards. There's somany eyes watching you, everything you do, and
every time you eat anything. Now the pressure’sto go vegan. This is a big trend in social media,
(14:31):
especially food. But also there's you know, ‘don'twear leather’ and so on, and ‘don't fly too much’
and ‘don't have children' and ‘recycle everythingand use less’. Then you end up diverting off onto
different paths away from actually what youwant to do. You're trying to cover all bases,
trying to please everyone all the time, and itbecomes very stressful. And I think a lot of time,
(14:55):
people don't realise that Instagrammerswith big accounts are actually also just
normal people. I don't have staff, I don'thave assistants, I don't have editors,
I don't have a manager. I have an agent in Londonwho manages jobs, but she doesn’t manage me.
So it really is just you. MZ
it's made me very tough. And also quite cynicalas well. I often get emails like “Hi, we'd really
(15:22):
love to have a meeting”. And I’m like “Can youjust tell me what it is in an email. And if
you can't do it in an email, I'm not justinterested in meeting you.” I'm not gonna
come meet you for a jolly. And so you becomevery blunt, which is also something you always
have to be aware of. So it is an interestingworld. And it's a job that I've created myself,
(15:43):
there is no job description. And it's not likesomething that someone could else could do after
me. I can't step down off this role.OF: But what I like hearing is that,
even when you have a successful Instagram account- which a lot of people are aiming for, and they
spend their days trying to do it - it's not allroses. And I think people need to hear that,
(16:03):
because I think they can stress themselvesout and they can do inauthentic things.
MZ (16:07):
And I know so many people who… I've got friends that message me saying “Oh, I posted
two hours ago, it only has 16 likes, can you goand like it.” And I’m like “OK, fine. If it makes
you happy, I’ll totally do it”. It's like yourfriend saying “I'm really upset, can you comfort
me?” Yeah, of course, but it's like comfortingthem with a drug, which is dopamine through
(16:28):
social media. And so it's kind of been “OK, I'lldo it. It's fine". But you know, I've had times
when I’m like “OK, it didn't get as many likesas I would have hoped for." Whatever. You know,
and it's taken me a long time to learn that.OF: Well, that's the cynical side taken care
of…. What about the things that you stillderive pleasure from? Because obviously,
(16:51):
you are still doing it. Like, whichare the things that make you still
wake up and go “Oh, wow. Yeah, this is good”?MZ: When I do events and I meet people, and they
come say hello to me, and they say “I’ve followedyou from the beginning”. And they know things that
I've forgotten about that. Like “Oh, that timeyou went to this restaurant” or this country
or whatever. And I’m like “God, you rememberthat? How crazy!” Like they really really love
(17:19):
the concept, they love to see me and Mark, theylove to learn about the things that I'm interested
in. Those are the moments that I really, reallylike. It's really astonishing how social media
has given people that. Traditionally you wouldnever cross paths - because of various reasons,
(17:41):
you know - but now you meet up at these places,you go for drinks or dinner, and you meet through
the most bizarre things. And then you’re bestfriends. But this illustrates the point perfectly,
that social media as a way to have real-worldengagement, in terms of meeting real people,
(18:06):
is the formula of success. If you use social mediato make new friends, that's great. But if you
use social media to isolate yourself, it can beextremely damaging. So it's how do you use social
media? It's like gamers who play games online allday. And they have these friends that they play
(18:27):
games with across the world, and they have theseavatars. And then you hear these stories of them
travelling across the world to meet their friendwho lives in a different country. And they’re best
friends, because they've been playing computergames for 5-6 years, never met. And then they’re
like “We should actually meet in real life”.And that’s an amazing thing about social media,
and technology. It should bring you together.Imagine never being able to meet this person
(18:50):
in real life, that would be horrible. But yeah,these people who meet through computer gaming,
I think is an amazing story. I think this is whatsocial media should always try and facilitate.
OF (18:59):
And we've talked very much in the abstract in terms of geography throughout this conversation.
You know, we could have been talking aboutyour life in London, we could have been
talking about someone else's life in the US.So what about your life here in China? How
have you managed to meld your online socialmedia life with your real life here in China?
MZ (19:18):
The way my Instagram has shifted is to explore as much of China and its food and its places as
possible. To be this food correspondent that goesand sees a caviar farm in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province;
or goes to a tea plantation in 云南 [Yúnnán];or goes to see this old town somewhere,
(19:41):
or this Water Town, or a restaurant on the Bund.And people really appreciate that window into
China that's not political. And sometimes it'sjust the street food, and sometimes just everyday
life. But sometimes it's to see something beingmanufactured or farmed or grown. And then it gives
(20:02):
people a real understanding of how diverse Chinais. I think that's how I’ve pivoted my Instagram
into becoming more exploratory of China.OF: Michael, thank you. We're now
going to move on to Part 2.MZ: Oh, yes. Great, Part 2.
(20:26):
[Part 2]OF: So Question
1. What is your favourite China-related fact?MZ: That 你好 [nǐ hǎo] doesn’t mean ‘hello’. I think
this is the interesting thing about translation,that we always want to have equals, equivalents,
of words. “This word in my language means thisword in your language”. And actually 你好 [nǐ hǎo]
(20:49):
is ‘you good.’ Literally, ‘you good.’ And it'simplied there's a question. Whereas ‘hello’ is a
kind of acknowledgment of ‘I'm here’. But I'm notasking for your recognition. Hello. In the sense
of, you can just say “Hello” to an empty room. Butyou would never say 你好 [nǐ hǎo] to an empty room.
And I think this is the interesting thing about alot of Chinese words, and a lot of translation and
(21:15):
linguistics in general, is that it's not always soneat and tidy. 你好 [nǐ hǎo] is the closest thing to
’hello’, but it's not ‘hello’. Yeah.OF: Nice. Do you have a favourite
word or phrase in Chinese?MZ: Yeah. I really like the word 腐 [fǔ], as
in 豆腐 [dòufu]. And in Chinese, it means ‘rotten’.But in another sense, that word can also be
(21:42):
something that's delicious. You’ve got 腐乳 [fǔrǔ],which is like ‘rotten breast milk’, or ‘a mother's
milk rotten’. And actually in Chinese culture,this word is used a lot of times for things that
are just preserved or pickled or fermented. Andactually in a Western sense ‘rotten’ is always
(22:05):
pretty bad. Rotten eggs or a rotten person.The word ‘rotten’, there's always a negative
connotation. Whereas in Chinese culture, it'snot necessarily bad. It's such a complex thing,
this character. It can mean tasty things. And itcan mean rotten women who are obsessed with gay
men. Or it could just mean tofu.OF: Wow, OK, that one is hard to unpack.
(22:30):
Yeah. OF
your favourite destination within China?MZ: 千岛湖 [Qiāndǎo hú], ‘Thousand Island
Lake.’ It’s in 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province, about twoand a half-ish hours on the train from Shanghai.
And it's a man-made lake. It was created in1959 when they constructed a dam. And now
(22:50):
it's one of the cleanest lakes in the world. AndI went for my birthday. And it was so beautiful.
OF (22:58):
OK, next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least?MZ: For both, it’s old people in pyjamas. Now
I'm slightly not fazed by it. But it's stillsurprising. And I find it surprising that it's
(23:18):
pretty much only Shanghai that does this.When you go to other cities, Chinese people
do not do this. And I think when you seethe 90-year-old man carrying his trash out,
and he's in his giant underwear with his slipperson, and no other clothes, it's just… I don't know.
(23:39):
I'm shocked that I'm not shocked anymore.OF: Is there anything that still
surprises you about life in China?MZ: I think that the biggest surprise now
is just how much ahead of the Western world Chinais. Everyone that comes to visit me, they’re so
(23:59):
shocked. They’re, you know, “Oh, old CommunistChina has better apps, better taxi services…”
Better all these things. And it's so easy tojust click your fingers and you get something.
Where's your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just generally hang out?
MZ (24:14):
One of my new favourites is Heritage by Madison, which is a lovely new restaurant down
at the Bund Finance Center, next to the lovelyThomas Heatherwick building that moves. And it's
Austin Hu, and probably most people would knowhim as the guy behind The Diner’. He’s now left
that group and he's opened another restaurantdown by the river. And it's excellent. You know,
(24:40):
it's Western casual fine dining withlots of Chinese influences. Really nice
wine list. Really inexpensive. Stunningsetting. World-class service. Nailed it.
OF (24:55):
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
MZ (24:59):
Best purchase is a beautiful chair from Taobao. And Taobao is an amazing online
platform. For those of you who don't know Chinesee-commerce, you have a direct link with a factory,
(25:20):
or the vendor or the individual selling. Itdoesn't come from like Amazon.com as such. And
so you can have this conversation with someone,like I did with a sofa. You don’t just click the
colour you want, they send you the swatch and youcan have this long conversation, “Oh actually can
I have it 10 centimetres longer.? Can I have ita little bit deeper? Can I have it in blue? And
(25:40):
also can I have it in this fabric?” And so youcan really have this conversation. We had this
chair made, which is admittedly a knock-off ofFinn Juhl, who is a very famous Scandinavian
designer. And the original chair is something like€10-14,000, and we had a knock-off commissioned in
(26:01):
beautiful soft baby pink leather, for £500 pounds.OF: What's your favourite WeChat sticker?
My favourite WeChat sticker is this little girl that saying ‘bye.’ It is the
perfect way to end the conversation.OF: I'm looking at it now. Yes,
you know who this is, right?MZ: I know she's famous for something,
(26:23):
but I don’t know what.OF: This is Honey Boo Boo.
Oh that’s it, Honey Boo Boo, yeah. OF
Oh, so I've actually never done KTV in China. I've only ever done karaoke in Japan.
My last memory of karaoke in Japan was thisenormous skyscraper that was like 10 floors
(26:50):
of rooms. And they had costumes, you could picka costume to wear whilst you sing. And so I was
a beer bottle, a giant beer bottle. And Markwas wearing the Björk swan dress. And we were
with a big group of people from France. AndI remember this French team, they were like,
(27:13):
"Oh, we're gonna be so good at this”. Andthen when we actually got in the room,
they were really bad. And really kind of like “Oh,you guys sing”. And I remember putting on Nirvana.
And they just went wild. And I've got a video ofthem had head-banging to Nirvana. It was Nirvana,
‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’.OF: OK. And finally,
(27:35):
what other general information sourcesor China-related media do you rely on?
So my favourite is Sixth Tone. And they are a Shanghai-based English-language Chinese long-read
platform. They do these long reads, and they tellyou how long you need to read them, 6-20 minutes.
(28:00):
And they're on all sorts of subjects. And Ithink one of their most read - but also one
of my favourites - is the history of hot water inChina. And why do Chinese people drink hot water.
OF (28:11):
That sounds great. I think you've mentioned that before to me in the past. And I always
promised that I'd go and check it out, but Ihaven't done so yet. So you've you've nudged
me again now. Actually, the first person who wasin this series, Philippe Gas, that was one of the
things that still mystified him about life inChina, that he's always offered hot water. So
I'm gonna have to send him that link.MZ: It's a recent invention.
Really? MZ
(28:31):
Amazing. MZ
Well, thank you once again, Michael. MZ
Before you leave, I ask the same question to everyone who is sitting in that seat, and that is,
for the next season of Mosaic of China,who do you recommend that I interview next?
MZ (28:44):
I would like to hear more from my friend, Crystyl Mo. And she is someone I actually
only met recently. And she is the chair ofAsia's 50 best restaurants. And she's also
an amazing connector of people. She's extremelyeloquent. And she's just been someone that I’ve
(29:06):
immediately clicked with. I remember that wemet recently at an event - I won’t say which
brand - and we both left with a kind of verycynical view of the situation. And we were
kind of like “Have they just tried to spoon-feedus this propaganda?” And we both kind of clicked
and we thought “Wow, you’ve come to exactlythe same conclusion as I have”. And I think
(29:29):
that's where we kind of struck up our friendship.OF: Excellent. I look forward to meeting Crystyl.
Thank you so much, Michael.MZ: Thank you again.
[Outro]OF: 你好 [Nǐ hǎo].
I liked what Michael said about the phrase 你好[nǐ hǎo], you definitely wouldn't say it to an
empty room. In fact, I must say I don't reallyhear it very often at all in natural speech in
China. It's used to foreigners because the Chineseknow that we understand it. But when I'm greeting
(29:54):
people in my neighbourhood, I'm much more likelyto hear “吃了吗？ [chīle ma?]’ - “have you eaten?”
Or “去哪里? [Qù nǎlǐ?]” which is “Where are yougoing?” Those are the substitutes for ‘hello’
that I'm more familiar with these days. So incase someone Chinese ever asks you “Have you
eaten?” or “Where are you going?”, you mightthink that they're being bizarrely intrusive,
but actually they're just saying ‘hello’. I wish Icould have heard this advice myself ten years ago,
(30:15):
I lived for six years in Singapore, and Iheard this said in English all the time,
and I don't think I ever figured it outuntil living in China many years later.
What I've particularly enjoyed about gettingto know Michael over the last few months is
that he confounds the expectations of what youmight imagine a social media influencer to be.
I would have always assumed that they wouldbe vapid and superficial and narcissistic.
(30:37):
But Michael's combination of skills from theworld of teaching and museums on the one hand,
mixed in with his skills in photography andfood on the other, make him to be a much more
thoughtful and deliberate person than you mightotherwise have given him credit for. Speaking
of which, there was a lot of information in thisweek's episode, so let me smash through this as
quickly as possible. Firstly, there are many, manyconnections between Shanghai and Liverpool that we
(31:02):
didn't get into. Just have a quick look online,and you can see the several landmarks that look
almost identical in both cities. Shamefully,I've never once been to Liverpool - even though
my cousin studied there for three years - so it'sgone to the top of my list for places that I must
try and visit next time I'm in the UK for longenough. Speaking of the UK, I'm pretty sure we
didn't use too much slang in this interview.I only noticed two examples. One was the word
(31:25):
‘chippie’, which means ‘a fish & chip shop’. Andthe other was a reference to smoking ‘rollies’,
which are roll-your-own-cigarettes. The referenceto rotten women, or ‘腐女 [fǔnǚ]’, that Michael made
in passing, is about a subculture of women inChina who are obsessed with gay men. I found an
interesting BBC article about this phenomenon,with a reference to Sherlock Holmes actually.
(31:47):
I won't say any more about that, I posted thephoto on social media, so please take a look
there. We're on @mosaicofchina_ on Instagramand @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or you can add
me on WeChat with my ID (31:57):
mosaicofchina and I'll add you to the group there. The other images I
posted include, of course, Michael's object, thevery handsome signet ring. That's got his father's
name on it, which is 徐宝山 [Xú Bǎoshān]. And 徐 [Xú]is Michael's family name, it was anglicised to
Zee because this was the closest to how it soundsin the Shanghainese dialect. So there you go, the
(32:21):
difference between ‘Xú’ and ‘Zee’, just in caseyou thought learning Mandarin wasn't difficult
enough. Then there is the Honey Boo Boo WeChatsticker; there's the Victoria and Albert Museum in
London, where Michael used to work; Michael alsomentioned Kat Von D and Jamie Oliver as two people
who amplified his social media status early on inhis Instagram career, so there's a photo of both
(32:42):
of them. Kat Von D is an American tattoo artist,and Jamie Oliver is an English chef. There is a
photo of Michael dressed up as a beer bottle forJapanese karaoke; there’s Heritage by Madison, the
Shanghai restaurant that he recommended; there’s千岛湖 [Qiāndǎo hú], which is 千岛 [Qiāndǎo] Lake or
‘Thousand Island Lake’, the place that Michaelsaid was his favourite destination within China.
(33:04):
It looks amazing, I don't know why I haven'tbeen there before. There is a photo of the pink
knock-off chair that he had made on Taobao; thereis a photo of an old man walking in Pyjamas on the
streets of Shanghai. This is actually a photothat I posted on my own personal Instagram, and
it was back in October 2016, when it was still anovelty for me. Again, this seems to be something
(33:27):
that happens mainly in Shanghai, but please letme know if you know it happens elsewhere in China.
Thank you for listening this far. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs Editing by Milo de Prieto,
artwork by Danny Newell, and China technicalsupport from Alston Gong. Please like,
comment, share, do all those things. If you don't,
I'm going to find you I'm going to hunt you,and I'm going to beg and cry hysterically.
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