September 6, 2021 • 44 mins
One of the themes that comes up a lot in Mosaic of China is the idea that people who can span different cultures can often gain a certain superpower when it comes to analysing their own culture. It's that inside/outside perspective that becomes honed when you venture outside the comforts of your cultural paradigm. In today's episode, we extend that idea beyond the realm of cultural identity, and into the realm of gender identity. It's a very special episode with a very special guest, who will be talking about the transgender experience in China. Before this conversation, I thought I knew quite a lot about all this. But it turns out, I didn't know the half of it. Stick around until the end of the episode to hear how this conversation inspired me in particular. But I hope it in some way inspires you too. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:46 - Part 1 32:52 - Part 2 39:27 - Outro Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-30-jiyoung.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]J: Well, how about we stop giving surgeries
to people who don't want them, and give themto the people who do want them?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
With each guest that has appeared on Mosaicof China, there's usually a balance between
(00:24):
talking about what that person does, versuswho that person is. Well in today's final
episode of Season 02, the guest has neverbeen clearer about the importance of both
these factors in this particular time of herlife. And that's the reason why we agreed
to go into 'stealth mode' for this episode,which means that I don't mention my guest's
full name, I don't include any photos, andI've also disguised her voice. All of this
(00:49):
is explained later in the episode, but I wantedto prepare you for the voice distortion in
particular. No, this is not a continuationof last week's episode with Murray King from
Disney, even though the disguised voice doessound a little bit like Mickey Mouse.
Another one of the themes that comes up alot in Mosaic of China is the idea that people
who can experience a life that spans differentcultures can often gain a certain superpower
(01:14):
when it comes to analysing their own culture.It's that inside/outside perspective, that
those who don't venture outside the comfortsof their own culture can never experience.
In today's episode, we extend that idea beyondthe realm of cultural identity, and into the
realm of gender identity. Before this conversation,I thought I knew quite a lot about all this.
(01:36):
But it turns out, I didn't know the half ofit. Stick around until the end of the episode
to hear how this conversation inspired mein particular. But I hope it in some way inspires
you too.
[Part 1]OF: So I'm here today with Jiyoung. Hello,
Jiyoung.J: Hello.
OF (01:52):
And you are from Korea, and you are a teacher.
J (01:54):
Yes. Yes, I am. OF
Yeah, absolutely. It's very lovely to have you here.
OF (02:00):
It’s actually exciting for me, because I don't do too many interviews outside the
studio. So I feel like an intrepid reportertoday. Tell me, what is the object that you
have brought that in some way represents yourlife here in China?
J (02:14):
So I brought this object here. Do you want me to hand it to you, or..?
OF (02:20):
Yes, please. J
two objects in one. So the first object isa card that my students from my very first
year of teaching made for me. And my veryfirst year of teaching was when I transitioned
in front of my students. And these studentssaw me physically change. And they were so
(02:42):
supportive. And this is one of the most difficulttime periods in my life. I wasn't even sure
if I could ever be a teacher, being a transgenderperson. I'd never met a transgender teacher
before. So the idea that I could enter thisprofession, I still had to prove that to myself.
And having this affirmation from my studentswas a huge step in my own journey to believe
(03:03):
in myself. And inside the card is a letterfrom one of my students in China. So the reason
I put them together is because in my firstschool, I was openly out to my students,
and they saw me for who I was. And havingthat vulnerability in front of your students,
it really established a connection that isincredibly hard to replicate. But being openly
(03:26):
out also meant that I was vulnerable to harassment,from especially conservative parents of children
who did not want me to be a teacher there.Contrasting with China, where I'm not out
to the students in China. As a result of that,I don't receive any harassment, and it feels
very nice not to receive any harassment. Butsometimes I feel that I can't connect with
(03:50):
them in the same way, because I think about“They do like me. But would they still like
me as a teacher if they knew about my background,and where I came from?” But I put these
two letters together because, aside from thecommentary about my identity in the first
few letters, a lot of the compliments areabout the same thing: about the quality of
teaching. And at the end of the day, that'swhat students care about. It’s the ability
(04:13):
for you to help and guide them, and try toinspire them to become better learners and
better human beings overall. So I read bothof these at the same time to remind myself
that, just because I'm not out - to my studentsor to my co-workers - doesn't mean it sacrifices
all of my authenticity. That I'm more thanjust my transgender identity. My professionalism
(04:35):
means the world to me, and this is just oneof the dimensions of my life.
Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing something so personal.
J (04:43):
Thank you. OF
of the messages as you were speaking, andI can tell that those are heartfelt messages.
Not just from the people in your originalschool, but also the letter here in China.
And the original school, it's outside of China,of course.
Yes, yes. OF
time that you were…J: Transitioning,
OF (05:02):
Transitioning. So what does that mean? J
different Venn diagrams overlapping each other.Transitioning refers to the process in which
a transgender person goes from their identityat birth to the identity that they know they
are inside. A lot of people focus on the physical,biological transition - whether it's taking
(05:27):
hormones, or whether it's surgeries - andthat definitely is a big part of transitioning.
But that's an aspect that very few transgenderpeople go through. Because most transgender
people can't afford the physical transformation,because they're in a country where it's not
available, or they simply can't sacrificetheir life and their jobs to pursue this transition.
So the hyper-focus on the physical transition…it’s actually a minority of the transgender
(05:52):
experience. There's the social transitionof your friends seeing you for the new person
who you are; there’s the family transitionfor your family, either accepting or not accepting;
there is the legal transition, which is changingyour markers on your passport, or changing
your markers on your identity cards. So that'swhy I said it's all these things overlapping
each other. Obviously, your ability to biologicallytransition might depend on your ability to
(06:16):
get your legal work changed. In many countries,it's required. Or sometimes it's the other
way around, where in order to legally changethings, you need to biologically alter yourself.
So that's why they're all linked with eachother. And in many cases, transitioning is
not just a beginning and end point, right?It is a continuum. So that would be the long
answer to your question about transitioning.OF: You actually were quite concise in listing
(06:41):
all the different complexities that are involvedin that one word. And it makes me slightly
go fuzzy in the head to work out, where doI start with your story? I mean, you mentioned
the legal side. And that was to do with changingthe markers on your ID, for example. So do
you also change the name on your ID?J: Yes, absolutely. So the decision to change
(07:03):
your name is also, you know, you get to pickyour name, right? It can be very empowering,
in that regard. And so there was a periodof my life where I experimented with a couple
of different names. Or “If I go travellingto a new place where nobody knows me, I'm
going to go by this name, and see how thatworks”. So there was a couple of other contenders
(07:23):
before I settled on Jiyoung. So that's oneof the more pleasant parts of redefinition.
It’s more fun than the bureaucratic processof actually changing it, which can be a bit
of a nightmare.OF: Well, I can only imagine. What happens
when you have certificates and qualificationsin your ex-name. Do you have to then go back
and get those changed to your new name?J: Yes I literally had to go back for both
(07:45):
of my degrees, and for all of my legal transcripts,for my police record - I don't have a police
record, but you know, you still have to registeryour new name - literally everything. Because
if you have a certificate that still has yourbirth name on it… I’ve had job offers
retracted from me when I didn't have all ofmy paperwork completed, and they saw this
(08:08):
one document, and that was enough for themto say “Sorry, we're not going to offer
this to you any more”. And so that's somethingthat's really tied to your ability to make
sure that you still have an income, and makesure that you can still pursue your career
path.OF: Right. You are now in China, you have
all the records of your new identity. Theaudience will already notice that we're being
(08:31):
quite cagey with a few details. So I'm notsaying your full name. I'm not saying what
kind of teacher you are. I'm not saying whatcity we're in. Why are we doing that, can
you explain?J: I'm doing that because if my employers
were to find out that I am transgender, thenI will very much likely lose my job. And it's
(08:51):
not necessarily because my employers are homophobicor transphobic. It's because I work in a private
school, and at the end of the day, it's aboutmaking money. And we have a large population
of students who belong to conservative families.And what they would do is that they would
simply request to have their students removedfrom my class. Or they would go to the rival
(09:17):
school, right. And so if this would come out,then my employer would see that the loss of
profits, and then they would let me go. Andthe reason that I speak of this with fair
confidence is because I had a similar situationin the second school that I worked in.
Which was here in China, or..? J
so luckily the profit factor wasn't in there.But on my very first day, I had about 13 requests
(09:42):
to have students removed from my class. Andso from that experience, I learnt a lot, and
I became stronger. But I also learnt to berealistic. And I learnt that I need to be
strategic with whom I come out to. And sohiding my identity is crucial, because I love
my job, I absolutely love my job. I enjoyevery aspect of it. It's not just about losing
(10:06):
money, I would be completely heartbroken ifI was let go of the school from that. And
I would feel very humiliated that all my achievementsthat I've put into this school would be reduced
to this one dimension of my life. And I justhappen to be working in a particularly conservative
area of China.OF: OK. Well let's talk about that, then. What
(10:27):
is the situation for transgender people inChina?
J (10:31):
So it is incredibly varied. Overall, China's transgender situation is considerably behind
the lesbian, gay and bisexual communities.One of the reasons is that it is incredibly
difficult to change your legal informationin China. And as China being such a database
(10:52):
of information for each individual… Especiallyfor the ID cards, since the ID card determines
pretty much everything that you can do.OF: The ID card, and your number, is ubiquitous
here, isn't it.J: And one of the numbers is the gender.
OF (11:02):
Is that right? J
have to change the number.OF: Ah. You do, OK.
J (11:09):
So there are organisations specifically set up to help people change their markers,
because that's a huge factor in gaining accessto the workplace. Especially in a company
setting where people may be expecting to workthere for several years. I believe one of
the first successful discrimination employmentcases was in 2017. I was very lucky, I met
(11:31):
the person and the lawyer who was involvedin this, and I spoke to them. And in various
places around China, they were actually successful,not just the coastal regions, or the metropolitan
cities. So things are getting better. It'sreally in the past, maybe, five years that
things have started to pick up a little bit.One of the most famous public transgender
(11:55):
individuals is a TV show host, who is a dancer.But there's a big debate in the trans community
about transgender people who are visible andget accepted. And it's people who just blend
into the community, and go what's called ‘stealth’.Which is basically to just not tell anybody
about your past experiences. And this is notin any way a critique of that person. But
(12:19):
the general idea is that, if you're a transperson who can ‘pass’… ‘Passing’
is also another controversial term, passingbasically means nobody can ‘tell’ that
you are trans, right…OF: … And I must say you are someone who
I would say ‘passes’.J: Well, yeah, I appreciate that, in that
regard. But if you pass, most people justsimply start a new life, completely start
(12:42):
over again, and just don't ever tell anybody.I don't blame people who choose to do that.
For people who choose to do that, I completelyunderstand. But that's not facilitating acceptance,
right? It's safety. That's what it is. Itmeans you're much less likely to feel discriminated
against. Because the trans people who don'tpass in China - and this is for most of the
world - you’re seen as a joke. As a parodyof the gender that you want to be in. And
(13:03):
for the people who ridicule transgender people,they always ridicule the most vulnerable people,
who are the people who don't pass, right.So if you’re a trans man, you must be this
big, muscular, hyper-masculine individual.And if you're trans woman, you must be a supermodel,
right? So these exaggerated stereotypes thatare used, often against the trans community.
And sometimes many trans people internalisethat, and sometimes feel that the only way
(13:26):
to have acceptance is to have the only visiblepeople being these exemplary members of society.
Which is a very high standard for any community,let alone the trans community. And so most
‘passing’ people are ‘stealth' in China.OF: Very interesting. And I want to make this
personal to you. So, you know, when I justjumped in there and said “Oh but Jiyoung,
(13:48):
you also ‘pass’”, you took that as acompliment. But it must be very conflicting
for you.J: It is really conflicting, because I have
had the absolute range of reactions. I'vehad people - who had no idea I was trans - express
extreme shock when I tell them. I've had peoplealso say “It was very obvious all along,
(14:12):
and I just, you know, wanted to be polite”.Then I have people who are a bit too nice,
they’d be like “Oh my gosh, you're themost beautiful person in the world. And you’re
a complete model superstar”. And like, Iunderstand that they're trying to be nice,
but sometimes when you over-compliment someone- it’s when they're using over feminine
registers - you kind of see through that alittle bit. And also the other reason why
(14:34):
it feels conflicting is because I'm stealthat my work. And it's actually quite unhealthy
for my mental state, because it makes youparanoid all the time. You're always constantly
thinking “Can people tell? Are people suspicious?”And then it actually makes you try to exaggerate
your own feminine characteristics beyond whatis natural to you. And then you feel like
(14:55):
"Am I being inauthentic? Can people noticethat I'm trying to put on an act?” So that's
why, when I commute to places outside of mywork, I am openly out. Because at the end
of the day, I would rather be hated for whoI am than loved for who I am not. And that
is why I only plan on leading a stealth flightfor another five years. In five years, I plan
(15:20):
on starting my PhD. And I want to create anLGBT historical encyclopaedia, where the LGBT
histories of each country that I've been toare documented. So whenever somebody says
"Oh, no, this is a Western aspect, it's notpart of our culture”. I can say “Well
actually, I've got this whole encyclopaediathat documents the queer communities from
(15:43):
this culture. And it's not a Western phenomenon,it’s part of the culture”. As someone
who's not Chinese, it's not my job to tellthe story of Chinese people, it's simply to
do my best to assist, and make it accessible.And that's what I want my encyclopaedia to
be, I want it to be an online resource thatsecondary students would be able to read.
(16:04):
And I want it to be available in the languagesfrom that culture, not just in English. So
I'm willing to be stealth for five more years,essentially. As a temporary stepping stone
for while I do this sort of grassroots research.OF: Yeah. Very smart. And you've got it all
planned out. Like, I can see how your mindis working like a teacher, planning these
(16:25):
things out year by year. Well, I hope thatin five years time this programme is still
around, and we could do an update episode.Until then, of course, I understand why you're
doing it this way.J: Thank you.
OF (16:36):
With this topic of the encyclopaedia then, let's move in that direction. And this is
maybe unfair, because you haven't startedyour PhD yet. But what are the historical
precedents here in China? About people whomay or may not have been transgender in the
past?J: So I am still doing my research about transgender
history in China. I haven't come across somethingbeyond the past 100 years. That doesn't mean
(17:03):
it's not there, it just simply means thatthere hasn't been enough research done on
the topic. So there's quite a wealth of evidencefor gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. There
have been various emperors - throughout Chinesehistory going back thousands of years - who
had male concubines. And one of them is Emperor哀 [Āi] of 汉 [Hàn], about 2,000 years
(17:23):
ago. He's a person who's well known to bethe emperor of the ‘cut sleeve’. Transgender
people, not so much. If you contrast thiswith India, for example - and when I say India,
I mean the Indian subcontinent, so includingPakistan, including Bangladesh - they have
a significant quantity of documentation relatedto the हिजड़ा [Hijra], which is
(17:44):
sometimes known as ‘the third gender’,has been associated with intersex people,
and now is much more associated with transpeople. And so that goes back 4,000 years.
In Thailand you have the กะเทย [Kathoey],right? And that's been documented also for
several thousands of years. So within Asia,there is lots of transgender history. China,
I am still doing my research on that.OF: Absolutely. I look forward to seeing the
(18:08):
results. And this is another question whichI think is not specific to China. Because
‘LGB’ is about sexuality, and ’T’is about gender. Why are they, in general,
clumped together?J: Yes, so they are separate categories. But
they are linked, right? And obviously as atrans person, your sexual orientation changes
once you go from one gender to the other.OF: Right.
J (18:30):
Right? OF
So before I transitioned, many people read me as a gay feminine man. But actually,
I was bisexual. And I'm still bisexual. Andnow oftentimes, a lot people see me as a gay
woman, depending on who my partner happensto be. And so I've been every letter of the
‘LGBT’…OF: Wow, you have!
(18:52):
…In different parts of my life. And when I say “I've been” I mean ‘the way that
I've been read’. And even though the waythat you're read isn't necessarily your identity,
it influences your identity. And those perceptionsalso influence the way you interact with that
world. So something about each of those lettersresonate with different portions of my life.
OF (19:11):
Wow. J
sometimes you have to be hyper-masculine tobe a trans man, or hyper-feminine to be a
trans woman. A lot of people assume that transpeople are all straight. And the idea that
if you're a trans women, you are expectedto be with a man. And if you're a trans man,
you're expected to be with a woman. And sometimesit makes me question about, how much do I
actually want to be with men? Versus how muchdo I like the idea of being with men, because
(19:36):
this heteronormative society will more likelyvalidate my gender if I'm with a man? And
so I'm still questioning about, which areado I swing more towards.
Which is so interesting to hear, because you can articulate it in a way that is very
self-aware. Whereas people who live theirlives in a very conventional way, they never
(20:00):
really even question these things. Where actually,they probably could learn something about
themselves if they did.J: And that's one of the aspects that I think
about, that makes me proud to be a transgenderperson. It’s that I would otherwise have
never been in the situation where I'd be confrontedwith these philosophical ideas - about what
it means to know your gender, what it meansto know your sexual orientation - and I would
(20:22):
have never stumbled across the need to improve- and wanting to improve - society. And so
I'm incredibly thankful and grateful for beingtrans. I don't want it to just be the source
of shame. Even though there are times in lifewhere I do still feel that internalised shame,
being stealth puts you in that situation.But I am grateful that this has allowed me
(20:42):
to interrogate the paradigms of society thatwe sometimes assume to be default - or assume
to be static - and not ever evolving, andfluid.
Yes. And I think that gratitude does come through. It also reminds me of when you and
I have previously met. You were saying howactually, you have quite a good situation,
(21:02):
because ‘passing’ can come down to yourresources. Can you explain that?
J (21:06):
Yes, absolutely. So classism is a huge aspect in trans communities.
OF (21:11):
Class. J
it's impoverished, it's very hard to changeyour gender marker, it's very hard to afford
surgeries, and therefore it's very hard toget a job. And if you don't pass, and you
can't get a job, and you're evicted from yourhouse, that's why so many transgender people
are in sex work. And I have absolutely noproblems with people who want to do sex work,
(21:33):
you know, if that's what they want to do.But one of the reasons that it took me so
long to figure out my identity - and why Iwas in denial such a long time - is because
I never thought I could do anything but sexwork. Because the only exposure I had to transgender
people was through pornography. And I thoughtthat's what it meant to be transgender. And
that's one of the reasons people assume that- not just trans, but LGBT people - are ‘dangerous’
(21:56):
or shouldn't be around students, because it'sall a sexual thing. When it completely isn’t,
right? When I'm at school, I'm thinking aboutmy work, and thinking about my pedagogy. But
going back to the trans hierarchy, you know,there is a sector of trans people who come
from very privileged backgrounds - and verywealthy backgrounds - who sometimes look down
(22:17):
upon trans people who don't pass. And sortof think "Oh, you're making us all look bad".
But sometimes trans women are born into bodiesthat are just difficult to pass in. And that's
just the genetic lottery, that has absolutelynothing to do with it. So why should we value
someone's story, just because they happento be born with a bone structure that's more
thin, or where they have less body hair? Thathas to do with luck, that has nothing to do
(22:42):
with identity. So therefore, if we're onlyaccepting of hyper-feminine trans women, or
hyper-masculine trans men, we're acceptingof their presentation, we're not actually
accepting of their identity. And so the membersof the privileged parts of the transgender
community - who disassociate themselves fromthat - I would personally argue are actually
being quite harmful, and are actually reinforcinggender stereotypes.
(23:03):
Yes. And I can see where somebody who has not done well in the lottery - in terms
of their bone structure, or in terms of resources,and when they have no hope - of course, then
huge mental issues will arise. And that's,I guess, why there is a higher level of suicide.
Is that the same in China? Do we have thedetails about that?
J (23:22):
Yeah we do have the data in China, and unfortunately the data in China is quite consistent.
It usually hovers around 40%.OF: 40%?
Yeah. And so when I see an older transgender person - who has been living this life for
several decades - it’s hugely inspirational.OF: Absolutely.
Yes, so a lot of people believe that being transgender is a mental illness, in and of
(23:42):
itself. And that's one thing in China, itis still categorised as a mental illness,
while homosexuality was taken off the listof mental illnesses in China in 2001. The
WHO didn’t take transgender people off thelist of mental illnesses until 2018.
OF (23:54):
Oh woah. J
And it’s because people experience dysphoria.But the road to suicide is largely because
of the lack of resources - whether it's havingan apartment, having an education, having
a job, having a family - that's when a lotof the suicide rates increase. And that's
where most of the work needs to be made. Butthey don't just benefit trans people, they
(24:17):
benefit everybody, right? They benefit allpeople who are in these economically poor
situations. And that's why - looking at thestruggle through an intersectional lens - we
realise that we have so many more alliancesthan we do barriers with other communities,
who might be suffering from similar formsof discrimination, just in different ways.
Yes. And you mentioned, there, the term ‘gender dysphoria.’
J (24:39):
Yeah. Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort, because of the lack of alignment
between your physical biological characteristicsand your gender identity. People articulate
gender dysphoria in different ways. But usuallyit manifests in depression and deep hatred
for one's body. It has similar overlappingswith ‘dysmorphia’, which is the feeling
(25:03):
of disassociation with parts of your body.And a lot of people with body image issues
experience this when they look at a modelon screen - whether they're male or female
or non-binary - and they feel sad that theydon't have that. So gender dysphoria is something
similar. But it's not just the physical characteristics,it’s that you're not seen on a social level,
(25:27):
you're not recognised. For me, it was alsoa deep sense of loneliness that only I could
see this. And I didn't know how to articulateit without being accused of being mentally
unstable. And so, for me it manifested indeep isolation - and deep depression - that
took me a very long time to dig out of. Butit's different for everybody. I had access
(25:49):
to trans-inclusive therapists, and I can'tstate enough how much that really did save
my life, four or five years ago.OF: OK. Do you say, then, that body dysphoria
is part of the process that everyone goesthrough, in the acceptance of their transgender
identity?J: There is a debate within the transgender
community, to what extent does dysphoria playa role, right? I would generally say for the
(26:15):
majority of the trans community dysphoriadoes play a significant role. There is also
a group of transgender people for whom dysphoriadoesn't play a big role in their life. And
so I'm happy that there are transgender peoplewhere dysphoria doesn't play a big part. Because
it shouldn't be the central aspect of ournarrative.
OF (26:36):
Right. The other thing I wanted to ask you - because you mentioned it very briefly,
in passing - is the idea of intersex.J: Right. So for intersex it’s in many ways
actually almost the inverse experience oftransgender people. So intersex people are
really the biological proof that sex itselfis not a binary, right? Approximately 0.8%
(26:59):
of the world's population is intersex. Andthat might sound very small, but actually
there are more intersex people than thereare Japanese people in the world.
Right. J
the world, we're talking more than 130 millionpeople.
Yeah. J
are born that either don't have XX or XY chromosomesor have another variation; or have other variations
(27:23):
of physical characteristics of their body.Alright, so neither male nor female. There
are hundreds of animal species that also areintersex. One famous example is the lobster,
that's literally half male and half female.The struggle that many intersex people go
through, is that doctors look - when the babyis born - and they can't actually figure out
(27:46):
if the baby is male or female. But there areonly two boxes to tick. So oftentimes, they
would make the judgement and say that “Thislooks more… male.” And actually physically
alter - and perform surgeries - on babiesand young children, without the child's consent.
(28:06):
And oftentimes provide misleading informationto the parents saying there's a higher risk
of cancer developing, which is scientificallyvery questionable. And oftentimes, they're
prescribed hormones. “OK, we decided thatyou're female. So we're going to alter your
genitals to make you look more female. Andwe are going to give you hormones. And raise
you as a girl.” Which might align with theiridentity, or might not align with their identity.
(28:28):
Many intersex people grow up not realisingthat they're intersex.
Right. Because sometimes it's not visible, right?
J (28:34):
Yeah, sometimes it's not visible. A lot of these variations are inside the body. So
the reason I say trans people often have theinverse experience, is that many trans people
want to pursue hormones, and want to pursuesurgeries. When many intersex people have
surgeries and hormones given to them, withouttheir consent. Well, how about we stop giving
surgeries to people who don't want them, andgive them to the people who do want them?
OF (29:01):
There you go. Easy. J
are opposed to providing surgeries for transgenderpeople, also don't have a problem with doing
this to intersex people, and assuming thatthey know better than the identity of intersex
people.OF: Wow.
J (29:13):
So I feel like we already do this, we just do this to the wrong people.
OF (29:17):
So in an ideal world, we never bother to put them into one box or another, right?
Is that the ideal world?J: For me - and everybody has a different
variation of the ideal world, right - butinstead of having a girl’s section and a
boy’s section in the clothing store, justhave a clothing store. It's a spectrum, there
are feminine clothing, then there are masculineclothing, and there's also unisex clothing.
(29:40):
And also the definition of what is consideredto be feminine or masculine also changes over
time, right?OF: Right.
J (29:46):
So why not let your child go in to the shop and just pick the clothes that they want
to pick? And this doesn't just apply to intersexpeople, but for trans people, also to cisgender
heteronormative people. There are plenty ofmen who love wearing dresses. It doesn't mean
they’re gay, it doesn't mean they're trans.Just let people grow up choosing their presentation.
(30:06):
And that’s why acceptance of the queer community- or gender non-conforming people - is benefiting
everybody. Not just, you know, the small percentageof people who are queer.
OF (30:15):
Yeah. I feel like I'm asking questions that other people would want to ask. And I'm
peppering you with questions, I've asked youa hundred questions. Which is obviously not
what normally would happen in your everydaylife. But what is your advice to people who,
you know, perhaps would objectify you, whenthey're asking these questions? Like, how
do people ask questions? And how would youtell them to improve the way they ask questions?
J (30:39):
Right. There are some transgender people who are more than happy to answer these questions,
and there are some transgender people whodon’t. And actually by asking them in a
public setting, and outing them, can actuallyaffect their safety. I appreciate it when
people say “I have some questions aboutthe queer community.” Therefore it's more
(30:59):
broad. “And I was wondering if you feelcomfortable answering them”. And I feel
as long as it's prefaced that way - and thatit's done privately, it’s not done publicly
- then you lead the person to make the choice.Because there are people who pretend to ask
questions in order to receive blackmail thatthey can use against that.
OF (31:18):
Oh god. J
have faced before. And I think also, justunderstanding that the transgender community
is not a monolith.OF: Yeah.
J (31:26):
You might get very different answers to the same question.
OF (31:29):
Yeah. J
with you.OF: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm looking at
your object, it's still sitting here in frontof us. When you think about where you were
when you received that first card - at yourschool while you were starting the process
of transitioning - and you think about whereyou are today, what parallels do you make?
(31:49):
And what differences are there?J: It’s that self-acceptance is still the
singular most important aspect of maintainingone's mental health. I still struggle with
accepting myself, sometimes. It doesn't matterhow many compliments are showered upon me
in that regard. If I don't love myself, thenthose compliments would be met with a numb
(32:12):
heart, right? So that's what it reminds meto do.
Which is a totally universal lesson, you know. All of us have that outward façade,
where we project whatever level of confidencewe want to. But then there is so much underneath
in most people. And I think you going throughthis in a physical way, is only one manifestation
of the way that most of us live like our wholelives.
J (32:35):
Yeah. And I don't think you have to be a member of a particular marginalised community
to not feel inspired by it. Or to not havea sense of solidarity towards others.
OF (32:46):
Agreed. Thank you so much, Jiyoung. J
We’re going to now move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, so are you ready?
J (32:56):
Yes. OF
favourite China-related fact?J: I was gonna say Emperor 哀 [Āi] of 汉
[Hàn], but I've already talked about him.So it will be something that I've recently
discovered, which is that in 福建 [Fújiàn]Province there is a rabbit deity that's dedicated
(33:18):
to homosexuals. And I think that's amazing,that in Chinese mythology there is a deity
that's actually dedicated to gay relations.OF: Why a rabbit?
I am not sure. This is stuff that will eventually make its way into this encyclopaedia.
OF (33:36):
Yes. OK, great. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
J (33:41):
I like that 同志 [tóngzhì] is the term for ‘gay’, because it's a communist term
for ‘comrade’. And I love - I absolutelylove - how that's been reclaimed as a secret
term.OF: Yes. What’s your favourite destination
within China?J: I don't have a particular favourite destination.
But a destination that I have recent enthusiasmfor is 海南 [Hǎinán] Province. Because
(34:03):
after my surgery, that's the place where Iwore my bikini in public for the first time.
And it was such a huge affirming aspect, tobe on the beaches, and to be seen in public.
So, at this point in time, that has a hugeplace in my heart.
OF (34:22):
Wow. I love that. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you
miss the least?J: I would miss all of the Chinese LGBT advocates,
who always inspire me, day to day. I willnot miss having to hide my identity at work.
(34:42):
So, yeah…OF: Yes. And I did read that there have been
another few successes in the courts, withanti-discrimination, right?
J (34:49):
Yes. And also in conservative places. And so that's also a big beacon of hope.
OF (34:55):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
J (34:58):
Yes, oftentimes people in the West look at China and be like "Oh, they're just a crowd
of obedient peoples”. And I must admit,sometimes I had that stereotype in my head,
before I came to China. And to see that beingbroken over and over and over again, is something
that surprises me. Because the way that theynavigate obstacles, now that's replaced my
(35:20):
paradigm of how I view the cross-section ofChinese society.
OF (35:23):
Yes, that's very well said. Next question, where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat or drink or hang out?J: All the queer bars are my favourite places,
because I can let loose and I can totallybe myself. But there’s this kind of sense
of companionship in each other's eyes, whereyou can see, like “OK, yeah, we're both
(35:45):
in this together”.OF: And if I was to really be a bully, and
to ask you to choose one place - be it a bar,or be it any other kind of queer-friendly
hangout - would you be comfortable to namethat place?
J (35:56):
Well, I guess the classic would be Roxie, just because it was the first queer bar that
I went to in China. So, yeah…OF: Great. That’s Roxie in Shanghai, right?
Yes. OF
you've made in China?J: My best purchase is my electric guitar.
OF (36:14):
Oh. J
then during the lockdown, I bought it. AndI'm getting back into playing guitar. So that
was very helpful in dealing with the isolationof being quarantined.
And you could rock out here in your apartment block, or how did it work?
J (36:31):
Yeah, I mean, I had to have headphones, but it still works
OF (36:33):
Yes. J
had fake alcohol, that made me sick for like,two days.
Oh god. And was that here in your city? Or was it elsewhere?
J (36:44):
Unfortunately it's in multiple cities that that has happened.
OF (36:48):
Oh no. Next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
J (36:51):
I mean, I have a lot. But at the moment, my favourite one is this little pig that says
‘amazing’ with a rainbow behind it. Becauseit's still quite queer, but it's vague enough
that my co-workers will not be able to tellthat it's queer.
OF (37:04):
Yes. J
circumstances.OF: Oh, that's good. And what is your go-to
song to sing at KTV?J: 'From Me To You', by The Beatles.
Ah, nice. J
expect it. And it's short. And it's easy.And it immediately puts me in a good mood.
(37:29):
You've rationalised that pretty well actually. Yeah, very nice. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
J (37:39):
I think when you're looking for LGBT data, it's really important that you go directly
from the website, or from the organisationitself. Because when these things get reported
on - in many large media organisations - someof the small touches to things are not fully
understood or explained. And so I think gettingit directly from the Chinese source - from
(38:03):
the people who collected the data - is themost legitimate.
OF (38:05):
And there are plenty of organisations out there - some more in the limelight, some
slightly less so - is there one in particularthat you would point people towards for resources?
J (38:16):
I'm trying to not name specific organisations, but the United Nations Development Programme
has worked with some of these organisations.So I'd say those are particularly reliable.
OF (38:26):
Yeah. OK, I'll find the link, and I'll make sure that I post that. Jiyoung, thank
you so much.J: Thank you, thank you so much.
Well, you've been very patient. And I can see exactly the way that you hold yourself
when people do ask you questions, you havea unique way of weaving in information in
a way that's kind and very personal. It speaksto me. And I hope that other people will also
(38:50):
learn something from this recording.J: Thank you. I really appreciate that.
And before I finally let you get on with your weekend - and get out of your hair and
out of your apartment - let me ask you thefinal question which I asked everyone. Which
is, out of everyone who you know in China,who would you recommend that I interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?J: My friend Emma is an incredibly talented
(39:13):
artist and musician, where a lot of her workcentres on being mixed race and for being
queer. And I think there will be lots of potentialfor some amazing narratives.
Very cool. Thank you so much. J
[Outro]OF: I really hope you learnt as much about
the trans experience as I did from this episode.The positivity of Jiyoung's story should inspire
(39:36):
you. But then also be sure to remember thatcycle of erasure, exclusion, paranoia, pretence,
shame, in-fighting, and all the other potentialdangers that can be a part of the lives of
any misunderstood minority, in any society.
The parts that also resonated with me werethe ones that I remember having in my conversation
with Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode11, who was talking about people on the autism
(40:01):
spectrum in China. We all throw around wordslike tolerance and acceptance, but when it
comes down to it, a lot of this just comesdown to jobs. It's about access to the workforce.
And not just the human dignity part of it,it's the 'putting food on your table and a
roof over your head' part of it. Those partsthat are so boring that in future there'll
hopefully be no need to include stories likeJiyoung's in a podcast series.
(40:26):
Until that time, let me say thank you onceagain to Jiyoung for taking part in today's
show. You can follow the transcript and checkout the extra photos and graphics on the Mosaic
of China website. And as with every otherepisode in the series, there is a longer version
of the conversation available in the PREMIUMversion of the show. Just search for 'Mosaic
of China PREMIUM' on Apple Podcasts; or findus on Patreon and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn].
(40:52):
I've done the calculations, and over the wholeseries there's an extra 375 minutes. That's
6 and a quarter hours of extra content, people!Here are some clips from the extended version
of today's episode.
[Clip 1]J: It was very very painful for me to walk
for about two months. And obviously, the studentshad no idea what I went through.
(41:13):
[Clip 2]J: Gender-fluid people feel very masculine
on one day, feel very feminine on anotherday.
[Clip 3]J: It's possible to be marginalised for one
aspect of your identity, and privileged inanother aspect.
[Clip 4]J: Throughout the entire year, I got hate
mail. Sometimes anonymously, sometimes notanonymously.
[Clip 5]J: If a cisgender woman was to cut her hair
short, it's a masculine presentation, butthat doesn't mean she's any less of a woman.
(41:35):
[Clip 6]J: I mean, there are people who say “Oh,
you're just like a drag queen,” thinkingit's a compliment. When actually it really
isn't a compliment.OF: Oh dear.
J (41:45):
Not that it's bad to be a drag queen. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (41:47):
And with that, all that's left for me to do is to thank all thirty guests from Season
02 of the show. And also the 27 guests fromSeason 01 who came back for a catch-up. It's
been great to see the connectivity betweenthe Mosaic tiles of these two seasons. And
none of those tiles could stick together withoutthe mortar between them, which is you the
listener. Thank you so much for being themost important part of the Mosaic. And thanks
(42:12):
also to Rebecca Kanthor for interviewing mein the bonus episode halfway through the Season,
where we came up with that concept of mortartogether.
I mentioned at the beginning of today's episodethat the conversation with Jiyoung inspired
me personally in a certain way. Well, whatI meant by that is with my final thank you,
which is to Denny Newell. I mention Dennyat the end of every episode, because he does
(42:34):
all the artwork for Mosaic of China. But he'snot just the guy who does the artwork, he's
also my husband. If you've met me in publicor at a Mosaic of China event, or even seen
me on social media, I make no secret of this.But as with Jiyoung, I made the decision to
'go stealth' with that part of my privatelife in this podcast until now. And there
(42:54):
were reasons for this. I always want to focuson the guest, not myself. Secondly, I wanted
this to be a long-term project where I canreveal more about myself gradually rather
than reveal everything at once. I also didn'twant to drag Denny's private life into the
public without knowing exactly what boundarieshe was comfortable with. And finally, I wanted
to present myself as neutrally as possible,so that I can portray stories from all kinds
(43:18):
of different people without being accusedof having some kind of personal agenda.
Well I think I've gone as far as I want towith those ideas. And having had a conversation
about this with him the other day, I thinkDenny has too. So thank you to my husband
Denny Newell. And thank you to all of Denny'sfriends and family listening, who may have
also been starting to feel that it was a littleweird that I hadn't mentioned any of this
(43:41):
until now.
I will be back with a special end-of-seasonWrap-Up episode, which will be an exploration
of more of the themes from the Season, aswell as a glance into what's happening next.
So I'll see you back here for that.
[Trailer]J: Well, how about we stop giving surgeries
to people who don't want them, and give themto the people who do want them?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
With each guest that has appeared on Mosaicof China, there's usually a balance between
(00:24):
talking about what that person does, versuswho that person is. Well in today's final
episode of Season 02, the guest has neverbeen clearer about the importance of both
these factors in this particular time of herlife. And that's the reason why we agreed
to go into 'stealth mode' for this episode,which means that I don't mention my guest's
full name, I don't include any photos, andI've also disguised her voice. All of this
(00:49):
is explained later in the episode, but I wantedto prepare you for the voice distortion in
particular. No, this is not a continuationof last week's episode with Murray King from
Disney, even though the disguised voice doessound a little bit like Mickey Mouse.
Another one of the themes that comes up alot in Mosaic of China is the idea that people
who can experience a life that spans differentcultures can often gain a certain superpower
(01:14):
when it comes to analysing their own culture.It's that inside/outside perspective, that
those who don't venture outside the comfortsof their own culture can never experience.
In today's episode, we extend that idea beyondthe realm of cultural identity, and into the
realm of gender identity. Before this conversation,I thought I knew quite a lot about all this.
(01:36):
But it turns out, I didn't know the half ofit. Stick around until the end of the episode
to hear how this conversation inspired mein particular. But I hope it in some way inspires
you too.
[Part 1]OF: So I'm here today with Jiyoung. Hello,
Jiyoung.J: Hello.
OF (01:52):
And you are from Korea, and you are a teacher.
J (01:54):
Yes. Yes, I am. OF
Yeah, absolutely. It's very lovely to have you here.
OF (02:00):
It’s actually exciting for me, because I don't do too many interviews outside the
studio. So I feel like an intrepid reportertoday. Tell me, what is the object that you
have brought that in some way represents yourlife here in China?
J (02:14):
So I brought this object here. Do you want me to hand it to you, or..?
OF (02:20):
Yes, please. J
two objects in one. So the first object isa card that my students from my very first
year of teaching made for me. And my veryfirst year of teaching was when I transitioned
in front of my students. And these studentssaw me physically change. And they were so
(02:42):
supportive. And this is one of the most difficulttime periods in my life. I wasn't even sure
if I could ever be a teacher, being a transgenderperson. I'd never met a transgender teacher
before. So the idea that I could enter thisprofession, I still had to prove that to myself.
And having this affirmation from my studentswas a huge step in my own journey to believe
(03:03):
in myself. And inside the card is a letterfrom one of my students in China. So the reason
I put them together is because in my firstschool, I was openly out to my students,
and they saw me for who I was. And havingthat vulnerability in front of your students,
it really established a connection that isincredibly hard to replicate. But being openly
(03:26):
out also meant that I was vulnerable to harassment,from especially conservative parents of children
who did not want me to be a teacher there.Contrasting with China, where I'm not out
to the students in China. As a result of that,I don't receive any harassment, and it feels
very nice not to receive any harassment. Butsometimes I feel that I can't connect with
(03:50):
them in the same way, because I think about“They do like me. But would they still like
me as a teacher if they knew about my background,and where I came from?” But I put these
two letters together because, aside from thecommentary about my identity in the first
few letters, a lot of the compliments areabout the same thing: about the quality of
teaching. And at the end of the day, that'swhat students care about. It’s the ability
(04:13):
for you to help and guide them, and try toinspire them to become better learners and
better human beings overall. So I read bothof these at the same time to remind myself
that, just because I'm not out - to my studentsor to my co-workers - doesn't mean it sacrifices
all of my authenticity. That I'm more thanjust my transgender identity. My professionalism
(04:35):
means the world to me, and this is just oneof the dimensions of my life.
Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing something so personal.
J (04:43):
Thank you. OF
of the messages as you were speaking, andI can tell that those are heartfelt messages.
Not just from the people in your originalschool, but also the letter here in China.
And the original school, it's outside of China,of course.
Yes, yes. OF
time that you were…J: Transitioning,
OF (05:02):
Transitioning. So what does that mean? J
different Venn diagrams overlapping each other.Transitioning refers to the process in which
a transgender person goes from their identityat birth to the identity that they know they
are inside. A lot of people focus on the physical,biological transition - whether it's taking
(05:27):
hormones, or whether it's surgeries - andthat definitely is a big part of transitioning.
But that's an aspect that very few transgenderpeople go through. Because most transgender
people can't afford the physical transformation,because they're in a country where it's not
available, or they simply can't sacrificetheir life and their jobs to pursue this transition.
So the hyper-focus on the physical transition…it’s actually a minority of the transgender
(05:52):
experience. There's the social transitionof your friends seeing you for the new person
who you are; there’s the family transitionfor your family, either accepting or not accepting;
there is the legal transition, which is changingyour markers on your passport, or changing
your markers on your identity cards. So that'swhy I said it's all these things overlapping
each other. Obviously, your ability to biologicallytransition might depend on your ability to
(06:16):
get your legal work changed. In many countries,it's required. Or sometimes it's the other
way around, where in order to legally changethings, you need to biologically alter yourself.
So that's why they're all linked with eachother. And in many cases, transitioning is
not just a beginning and end point, right?It is a continuum. So that would be the long
answer to your question about transitioning.OF: You actually were quite concise in listing
(06:41):
all the different complexities that are involvedin that one word. And it makes me slightly
go fuzzy in the head to work out, where doI start with your story? I mean, you mentioned
the legal side. And that was to do with changingthe markers on your ID, for example. So do
you also change the name on your ID?J: Yes, absolutely. So the decision to change
(07:03):
your name is also, you know, you get to pickyour name, right? It can be very empowering,
in that regard. And so there was a periodof my life where I experimented with a couple
of different names. Or “If I go travellingto a new place where nobody knows me, I'm
going to go by this name, and see how thatworks”. So there was a couple of other contenders
(07:23):
before I settled on Jiyoung. So that's oneof the more pleasant parts of redefinition.
It’s more fun than the bureaucratic processof actually changing it, which can be a bit
of a nightmare.OF: Well, I can only imagine. What happens
when you have certificates and qualificationsin your ex-name. Do you have to then go back
and get those changed to your new name?J: Yes I literally had to go back for both
(07:45):
of my degrees, and for all of my legal transcripts,for my police record - I don't have a police
record, but you know, you still have to registeryour new name - literally everything. Because
if you have a certificate that still has yourbirth name on it… I’ve had job offers
retracted from me when I didn't have all ofmy paperwork completed, and they saw this
(08:08):
one document, and that was enough for themto say “Sorry, we're not going to offer
this to you any more”. And so that's somethingthat's really tied to your ability to make
sure that you still have an income, and makesure that you can still pursue your career
path.OF: Right. You are now in China, you have
all the records of your new identity. Theaudience will already notice that we're being
(08:31):
quite cagey with a few details. So I'm notsaying your full name. I'm not saying what
kind of teacher you are. I'm not saying whatcity we're in. Why are we doing that, can
you explain?J: I'm doing that because if my employers
were to find out that I am transgender, thenI will very much likely lose my job. And it's
(08:51):
not necessarily because my employers are homophobicor transphobic. It's because I work in a private
school, and at the end of the day, it's aboutmaking money. And we have a large population
of students who belong to conservative families.And what they would do is that they would
simply request to have their students removedfrom my class. Or they would go to the rival
(09:17):
school, right. And so if this would come out,then my employer would see that the loss of
profits, and then they would let me go. Andthe reason that I speak of this with fair
confidence is because I had a similar situationin the second school that I worked in.
Which was here in China, or..? J
so luckily the profit factor wasn't in there.But on my very first day, I had about 13 requests
(09:42):
to have students removed from my class. Andso from that experience, I learnt a lot, and
I became stronger. But I also learnt to berealistic. And I learnt that I need to be
strategic with whom I come out to. And sohiding my identity is crucial, because I love
my job, I absolutely love my job. I enjoyevery aspect of it. It's not just about losing
(10:06):
money, I would be completely heartbroken ifI was let go of the school from that. And
I would feel very humiliated that all my achievementsthat I've put into this school would be reduced
to this one dimension of my life. And I justhappen to be working in a particularly conservative
area of China.OF: OK. Well let's talk about that, then. What
(10:27):
is the situation for transgender people inChina?
J (10:31):
So it is incredibly varied. Overall, China's transgender situation is considerably behind
the lesbian, gay and bisexual communities.One of the reasons is that it is incredibly
difficult to change your legal informationin China. And as China being such a database
(10:52):
of information for each individual… Especiallyfor the ID cards, since the ID card determines
pretty much everything that you can do.OF: The ID card, and your number, is ubiquitous
here, isn't it.J: And one of the numbers is the gender.
OF (11:02):
Is that right? J
have to change the number.OF: Ah. You do, OK.
J (11:09):
So there are organisations specifically set up to help people change their markers,
because that's a huge factor in gaining accessto the workplace. Especially in a company
setting where people may be expecting to workthere for several years. I believe one of
the first successful discrimination employmentcases was in 2017. I was very lucky, I met
(11:31):
the person and the lawyer who was involvedin this, and I spoke to them. And in various
places around China, they were actually successful,not just the coastal regions, or the metropolitan
cities. So things are getting better. It'sreally in the past, maybe, five years that
things have started to pick up a little bit.One of the most famous public transgender
(11:55):
individuals is a TV show host, who is a dancer.But there's a big debate in the trans community
about transgender people who are visible andget accepted. And it's people who just blend
into the community, and go what's called ‘stealth’.Which is basically to just not tell anybody
about your past experiences. And this is notin any way a critique of that person. But
(12:19):
the general idea is that, if you're a transperson who can ‘pass’… ‘Passing’
is also another controversial term, passingbasically means nobody can ‘tell’ that
you are trans, right…OF: … And I must say you are someone who
I would say ‘passes’.J: Well, yeah, I appreciate that, in that
regard. But if you pass, most people justsimply start a new life, completely start
(12:42):
over again, and just don't ever tell anybody.I don't blame people who choose to do that.
For people who choose to do that, I completelyunderstand. But that's not facilitating acceptance,
right? It's safety. That's what it is. Itmeans you're much less likely to feel discriminated
against. Because the trans people who don'tpass in China - and this is for most of the
world - you’re seen as a joke. As a parodyof the gender that you want to be in. And
(13:03):
for the people who ridicule transgender people,they always ridicule the most vulnerable people,
who are the people who don't pass, right.So if you’re a trans man, you must be this
big, muscular, hyper-masculine individual.And if you're trans woman, you must be a supermodel,
right? So these exaggerated stereotypes thatare used, often against the trans community.
And sometimes many trans people internalisethat, and sometimes feel that the only way
(13:26):
to have acceptance is to have the only visiblepeople being these exemplary members of society.
Which is a very high standard for any community,let alone the trans community. And so most
‘passing’ people are ‘stealth' in China.OF: Very interesting. And I want to make this
personal to you. So, you know, when I justjumped in there and said “Oh but Jiyoung,
(13:48):
you also ‘pass’”, you took that as acompliment. But it must be very conflicting
for you.J: It is really conflicting, because I have
had the absolute range of reactions. I'vehad people - who had no idea I was trans - express
extreme shock when I tell them. I've had peoplealso say “It was very obvious all along,
(14:12):
and I just, you know, wanted to be polite”.Then I have people who are a bit too nice,
they’d be like “Oh my gosh, you're themost beautiful person in the world. And you’re
a complete model superstar”. And like, Iunderstand that they're trying to be nice,
but sometimes when you over-compliment someone- it’s when they're using over feminine
registers - you kind of see through that alittle bit. And also the other reason why
(14:34):
it feels conflicting is because I'm stealthat my work. And it's actually quite unhealthy
for my mental state, because it makes youparanoid all the time. You're always constantly
thinking “Can people tell? Are people suspicious?”And then it actually makes you try to exaggerate
your own feminine characteristics beyond whatis natural to you. And then you feel like
(14:55):
"Am I being inauthentic? Can people noticethat I'm trying to put on an act?” So that's
why, when I commute to places outside of mywork, I am openly out. Because at the end
of the day, I would rather be hated for whoI am than loved for who I am not. And that
is why I only plan on leading a stealth flightfor another five years. In five years, I plan
(15:20):
on starting my PhD. And I want to create anLGBT historical encyclopaedia, where the LGBT
histories of each country that I've been toare documented. So whenever somebody says
"Oh, no, this is a Western aspect, it's notpart of our culture”. I can say “Well
actually, I've got this whole encyclopaediathat documents the queer communities from
(15:43):
this culture. And it's not a Western phenomenon,it’s part of the culture”. As someone
who's not Chinese, it's not my job to tellthe story of Chinese people, it's simply to
do my best to assist, and make it accessible.And that's what I want my encyclopaedia to
be, I want it to be an online resource thatsecondary students would be able to read.
(16:04):
And I want it to be available in the languagesfrom that culture, not just in English. So
I'm willing to be stealth for five more years,essentially. As a temporary stepping stone
for while I do this sort of grassroots research.OF: Yeah. Very smart. And you've got it all
planned out. Like, I can see how your mindis working like a teacher, planning these
(16:25):
things out year by year. Well, I hope thatin five years time this programme is still
around, and we could do an update episode.Until then, of course, I understand why you're
doing it this way.J: Thank you.
OF (16:36):
With this topic of the encyclopaedia then, let's move in that direction. And this is
maybe unfair, because you haven't startedyour PhD yet. But what are the historical
precedents here in China? About people whomay or may not have been transgender in the
past?J: So I am still doing my research about transgender
history in China. I haven't come across somethingbeyond the past 100 years. That doesn't mean
(17:03):
it's not there, it just simply means thatthere hasn't been enough research done on
the topic. So there's quite a wealth of evidencefor gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. There
have been various emperors - throughout Chinesehistory going back thousands of years - who
had male concubines. And one of them is Emperor哀 [Āi] of 汉 [Hàn], about 2,000 years
(17:23):
ago. He's a person who's well known to bethe emperor of the ‘cut sleeve’. Transgender
people, not so much. If you contrast thiswith India, for example - and when I say India,
I mean the Indian subcontinent, so includingPakistan, including Bangladesh - they have
a significant quantity of documentation relatedto the हिजड़ा [Hijra], which is
(17:44):
sometimes known as ‘the third gender’,has been associated with intersex people,
and now is much more associated with transpeople. And so that goes back 4,000 years.
In Thailand you have the กะเทย [Kathoey],right? And that's been documented also for
several thousands of years. So within Asia,there is lots of transgender history. China,
I am still doing my research on that.OF: Absolutely. I look forward to seeing the
(18:08):
results. And this is another question whichI think is not specific to China. Because
‘LGB’ is about sexuality, and ’T’is about gender. Why are they, in general,
clumped together?J: Yes, so they are separate categories. But
they are linked, right? And obviously as atrans person, your sexual orientation changes
once you go from one gender to the other.OF: Right.
J (18:30):
Right? OF
So before I transitioned, many people read me as a gay feminine man. But actually,
I was bisexual. And I'm still bisexual. Andnow oftentimes, a lot people see me as a gay
woman, depending on who my partner happensto be. And so I've been every letter of the
‘LGBT’…OF: Wow, you have!
(18:52):
…In different parts of my life. And when I say “I've been” I mean ‘the way that
I've been read’. And even though the waythat you're read isn't necessarily your identity,
it influences your identity. And those perceptionsalso influence the way you interact with that
world. So something about each of those lettersresonate with different portions of my life.
OF (19:11):
Wow. J
sometimes you have to be hyper-masculine tobe a trans man, or hyper-feminine to be a
trans woman. A lot of people assume that transpeople are all straight. And the idea that
if you're a trans women, you are expectedto be with a man. And if you're a trans man,
you're expected to be with a woman. And sometimesit makes me question about, how much do I
actually want to be with men? Versus how muchdo I like the idea of being with men, because
(19:36):
this heteronormative society will more likelyvalidate my gender if I'm with a man? And
so I'm still questioning about, which areado I swing more towards.
Which is so interesting to hear, because you can articulate it in a way that is very
self-aware. Whereas people who live theirlives in a very conventional way, they never
(20:00):
really even question these things. Where actually,they probably could learn something about
themselves if they did.J: And that's one of the aspects that I think
about, that makes me proud to be a transgenderperson. It’s that I would otherwise have
never been in the situation where I'd be confrontedwith these philosophical ideas - about what
it means to know your gender, what it meansto know your sexual orientation - and I would
(20:22):
have never stumbled across the need to improve- and wanting to improve - society. And so
I'm incredibly thankful and grateful for beingtrans. I don't want it to just be the source
of shame. Even though there are times in lifewhere I do still feel that internalised shame,
being stealth puts you in that situation.But I am grateful that this has allowed me
(20:42):
to interrogate the paradigms of society thatwe sometimes assume to be default - or assume
to be static - and not ever evolving, andfluid.
Yes. And I think that gratitude does come through. It also reminds me of when you and
I have previously met. You were saying howactually, you have quite a good situation,
(21:02):
because ‘passing’ can come down to yourresources. Can you explain that?
J (21:06):
Yes, absolutely. So classism is a huge aspect in trans communities.
OF (21:11):
Class. J
it's impoverished, it's very hard to changeyour gender marker, it's very hard to afford
surgeries, and therefore it's very hard toget a job. And if you don't pass, and you
can't get a job, and you're evicted from yourhouse, that's why so many transgender people
are in sex work. And I have absolutely noproblems with people who want to do sex work,
(21:33):
you know, if that's what they want to do.But one of the reasons that it took me so
long to figure out my identity - and why Iwas in denial such a long time - is because
I never thought I could do anything but sexwork. Because the only exposure I had to transgender
people was through pornography. And I thoughtthat's what it meant to be transgender. And
that's one of the reasons people assume that- not just trans, but LGBT people - are ‘dangerous’
(21:56):
or shouldn't be around students, because it'sall a sexual thing. When it completely isn’t,
right? When I'm at school, I'm thinking aboutmy work, and thinking about my pedagogy. But
going back to the trans hierarchy, you know,there is a sector of trans people who come
from very privileged backgrounds - and verywealthy backgrounds - who sometimes look down
(22:17):
upon trans people who don't pass. And sortof think "Oh, you're making us all look bad".
But sometimes trans women are born into bodiesthat are just difficult to pass in. And that's
just the genetic lottery, that has absolutelynothing to do with it. So why should we value
someone's story, just because they happento be born with a bone structure that's more
thin, or where they have less body hair? Thathas to do with luck, that has nothing to do
(22:42):
with identity. So therefore, if we're onlyaccepting of hyper-feminine trans women, or
hyper-masculine trans men, we're acceptingof their presentation, we're not actually
accepting of their identity. And so the membersof the privileged parts of the transgender
community - who disassociate themselves fromthat - I would personally argue are actually
being quite harmful, and are actually reinforcinggender stereotypes.
(23:03):
Yes. And I can see where somebody who has not done well in the lottery - in terms
of their bone structure, or in terms of resources,and when they have no hope - of course, then
huge mental issues will arise. And that's,I guess, why there is a higher level of suicide.
Is that the same in China? Do we have thedetails about that?
J (23:22):
Yeah we do have the data in China, and unfortunately the data in China is quite consistent.
It usually hovers around 40%.OF: 40%?
Yeah. And so when I see an older transgender person - who has been living this life for
several decades - it’s hugely inspirational.OF: Absolutely.
Yes, so a lot of people believe that being transgender is a mental illness, in and of
(23:42):
itself. And that's one thing in China, itis still categorised as a mental illness,
while homosexuality was taken off the listof mental illnesses in China in 2001. The
WHO didn’t take transgender people off thelist of mental illnesses until 2018.
OF (23:54):
Oh woah. J
And it’s because people experience dysphoria.But the road to suicide is largely because
of the lack of resources - whether it's havingan apartment, having an education, having
a job, having a family - that's when a lotof the suicide rates increase. And that's
where most of the work needs to be made. Butthey don't just benefit trans people, they
(24:17):
benefit everybody, right? They benefit allpeople who are in these economically poor
situations. And that's why - looking at thestruggle through an intersectional lens - we
realise that we have so many more alliancesthan we do barriers with other communities,
who might be suffering from similar formsof discrimination, just in different ways.
Yes. And you mentioned, there, the term ‘gender dysphoria.’
J (24:39):
Yeah. Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort, because of the lack of alignment
between your physical biological characteristicsand your gender identity. People articulate
gender dysphoria in different ways. But usuallyit manifests in depression and deep hatred
for one's body. It has similar overlappingswith ‘dysmorphia’, which is the feeling
(25:03):
of disassociation with parts of your body.And a lot of people with body image issues
experience this when they look at a modelon screen - whether they're male or female
or non-binary - and they feel sad that theydon't have that. So gender dysphoria is something
similar. But it's not just the physical characteristics,it’s that you're not seen on a social level,
(25:27):
you're not recognised. For me, it was alsoa deep sense of loneliness that only I could
see this. And I didn't know how to articulateit without being accused of being mentally
unstable. And so, for me it manifested indeep isolation - and deep depression - that
took me a very long time to dig out of. Butit's different for everybody. I had access
(25:49):
to trans-inclusive therapists, and I can'tstate enough how much that really did save
my life, four or five years ago.OF: OK. Do you say, then, that body dysphoria
is part of the process that everyone goesthrough, in the acceptance of their transgender
identity?J: There is a debate within the transgender
community, to what extent does dysphoria playa role, right? I would generally say for the
(26:15):
majority of the trans community dysphoriadoes play a significant role. There is also
a group of transgender people for whom dysphoriadoesn't play a big role in their life. And
so I'm happy that there are transgender peoplewhere dysphoria doesn't play a big part. Because
it shouldn't be the central aspect of ournarrative.
OF (26:36):
Right. The other thing I wanted to ask you - because you mentioned it very briefly,
in passing - is the idea of intersex.J: Right. So for intersex it’s in many ways
actually almost the inverse experience oftransgender people. So intersex people are
really the biological proof that sex itselfis not a binary, right? Approximately 0.8%
(26:59):
of the world's population is intersex. Andthat might sound very small, but actually
there are more intersex people than thereare Japanese people in the world.
Right. J
the world, we're talking more than 130 millionpeople.
Yeah. J
are born that either don't have XX or XY chromosomesor have another variation; or have other variations
(27:23):
of physical characteristics of their body.Alright, so neither male nor female. There
are hundreds of animal species that also areintersex. One famous example is the lobster,
that's literally half male and half female.The struggle that many intersex people go
through, is that doctors look - when the babyis born - and they can't actually figure out
(27:46):
if the baby is male or female. But there areonly two boxes to tick. So oftentimes, they
would make the judgement and say that “Thislooks more… male.” And actually physically
alter - and perform surgeries - on babiesand young children, without the child's consent.
(28:06):
And oftentimes provide misleading informationto the parents saying there's a higher risk
of cancer developing, which is scientificallyvery questionable. And oftentimes, they're
prescribed hormones. “OK, we decided thatyou're female. So we're going to alter your
genitals to make you look more female. Andwe are going to give you hormones. And raise
you as a girl.” Which might align with theiridentity, or might not align with their identity.
(28:28):
Many intersex people grow up not realisingthat they're intersex.
Right. Because sometimes it's not visible, right?
J (28:34):
Yeah, sometimes it's not visible. A lot of these variations are inside the body. So
the reason I say trans people often have theinverse experience, is that many trans people
want to pursue hormones, and want to pursuesurgeries. When many intersex people have
surgeries and hormones given to them, withouttheir consent. Well, how about we stop giving
surgeries to people who don't want them, andgive them to the people who do want them?
OF (29:01):
There you go. Easy. J
are opposed to providing surgeries for transgenderpeople, also don't have a problem with doing
this to intersex people, and assuming thatthey know better than the identity of intersex
people.OF: Wow.
J (29:13):
So I feel like we already do this, we just do this to the wrong people.
OF (29:17):
So in an ideal world, we never bother to put them into one box or another, right?
Is that the ideal world?J: For me - and everybody has a different
variation of the ideal world, right - butinstead of having a girl’s section and a
boy’s section in the clothing store, justhave a clothing store. It's a spectrum, there
are feminine clothing, then there are masculineclothing, and there's also unisex clothing.
(29:40):
And also the definition of what is consideredto be feminine or masculine also changes over
time, right?OF: Right.
J (29:46):
So why not let your child go in to the shop and just pick the clothes that they want
to pick? And this doesn't just apply to intersexpeople, but for trans people, also to cisgender
heteronormative people. There are plenty ofmen who love wearing dresses. It doesn't mean
they’re gay, it doesn't mean they're trans.Just let people grow up choosing their presentation.
(30:06):
And that’s why acceptance of the queer community- or gender non-conforming people - is benefiting
everybody. Not just, you know, the small percentageof people who are queer.
OF (30:15):
Yeah. I feel like I'm asking questions that other people would want to ask. And I'm
peppering you with questions, I've asked youa hundred questions. Which is obviously not
what normally would happen in your everydaylife. But what is your advice to people who,
you know, perhaps would objectify you, whenthey're asking these questions? Like, how
do people ask questions? And how would youtell them to improve the way they ask questions?
J (30:39):
Right. There are some transgender people who are more than happy to answer these questions,
and there are some transgender people whodon’t. And actually by asking them in a
public setting, and outing them, can actuallyaffect their safety. I appreciate it when
people say “I have some questions aboutthe queer community.” Therefore it's more
(30:59):
broad. “And I was wondering if you feelcomfortable answering them”. And I feel
as long as it's prefaced that way - and thatit's done privately, it’s not done publicly
- then you lead the person to make the choice.Because there are people who pretend to ask
questions in order to receive blackmail thatthey can use against that.
OF (31:18):
Oh god. J
have faced before. And I think also, justunderstanding that the transgender community
is not a monolith.OF: Yeah.
J (31:26):
You might get very different answers to the same question.
OF (31:29):
Yeah. J
with you.OF: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm looking at
your object, it's still sitting here in frontof us. When you think about where you were
when you received that first card - at yourschool while you were starting the process
of transitioning - and you think about whereyou are today, what parallels do you make?
(31:49):
And what differences are there?J: It’s that self-acceptance is still the
singular most important aspect of maintainingone's mental health. I still struggle with
accepting myself, sometimes. It doesn't matterhow many compliments are showered upon me
in that regard. If I don't love myself, thenthose compliments would be met with a numb
(32:12):
heart, right? So that's what it reminds meto do.
Which is a totally universal lesson, you know. All of us have that outward façade,
where we project whatever level of confidencewe want to. But then there is so much underneath
in most people. And I think you going throughthis in a physical way, is only one manifestation
of the way that most of us live like our wholelives.
J (32:35):
Yeah. And I don't think you have to be a member of a particular marginalised community
to not feel inspired by it. Or to not havea sense of solidarity towards others.
OF (32:46):
Agreed. Thank you so much, Jiyoung. J
We’re going to now move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, so are you ready?
J (32:56):
Yes. OF
favourite China-related fact?J: I was gonna say Emperor 哀 [Āi] of 汉
[Hàn], but I've already talked about him.So it will be something that I've recently
discovered, which is that in 福建 [Fújiàn]Province there is a rabbit deity that's dedicated
(33:18):
to homosexuals. And I think that's amazing,that in Chinese mythology there is a deity
that's actually dedicated to gay relations.OF: Why a rabbit?
I am not sure. This is stuff that will eventually make its way into this encyclopaedia.
OF (33:36):
Yes. OK, great. Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
J (33:41):
I like that 同志 [tóngzhì] is the term for ‘gay’, because it's a communist term
for ‘comrade’. And I love - I absolutelylove - how that's been reclaimed as a secret
term.OF: Yes. What’s your favourite destination
within China?J: I don't have a particular favourite destination.
But a destination that I have recent enthusiasmfor is 海南 [Hǎinán] Province. Because
(34:03):
after my surgery, that's the place where Iwore my bikini in public for the first time.
And it was such a huge affirming aspect, tobe on the beaches, and to be seen in public.
So, at this point in time, that has a hugeplace in my heart.
OF (34:22):
Wow. I love that. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you
miss the least?J: I would miss all of the Chinese LGBT advocates,
who always inspire me, day to day. I willnot miss having to hide my identity at work.
(34:42):
So, yeah…OF: Yes. And I did read that there have been
another few successes in the courts, withanti-discrimination, right?
J (34:49):
Yes. And also in conservative places. And so that's also a big beacon of hope.
OF (34:55):
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
J (34:58):
Yes, oftentimes people in the West look at China and be like "Oh, they're just a crowd
of obedient peoples”. And I must admit,sometimes I had that stereotype in my head,
before I came to China. And to see that beingbroken over and over and over again, is something
that surprises me. Because the way that theynavigate obstacles, now that's replaced my
(35:20):
paradigm of how I view the cross-section ofChinese society.
OF (35:23):
Yes, that's very well said. Next question, where is your favourite place to go out, to
eat or drink or hang out?J: All the queer bars are my favourite places,
because I can let loose and I can totallybe myself. But there’s this kind of sense
of companionship in each other's eyes, whereyou can see, like “OK, yeah, we're both
(35:45):
in this together”.OF: And if I was to really be a bully, and
to ask you to choose one place - be it a bar,or be it any other kind of queer-friendly
hangout - would you be comfortable to namethat place?
J (35:56):
Well, I guess the classic would be Roxie, just because it was the first queer bar that
I went to in China. So, yeah…OF: Great. That’s Roxie in Shanghai, right?
Yes. OF
you've made in China?J: My best purchase is my electric guitar.
OF (36:14):
Oh. J
then during the lockdown, I bought it. AndI'm getting back into playing guitar. So that
was very helpful in dealing with the isolationof being quarantined.
And you could rock out here in your apartment block, or how did it work?
J (36:31):
Yeah, I mean, I had to have headphones, but it still works
OF (36:33):
Yes. J
had fake alcohol, that made me sick for like,two days.
Oh god. And was that here in your city? Or was it elsewhere?
J (36:44):
Unfortunately it's in multiple cities that that has happened.
OF (36:48):
Oh no. Next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
J (36:51):
I mean, I have a lot. But at the moment, my favourite one is this little pig that says
‘amazing’ with a rainbow behind it. Becauseit's still quite queer, but it's vague enough
that my co-workers will not be able to tellthat it's queer.
OF (37:04):
Yes. J
circumstances.OF: Oh, that's good. And what is your go-to
song to sing at KTV?J: 'From Me To You', by The Beatles.
Ah, nice. J
expect it. And it's short. And it's easy.And it immediately puts me in a good mood.
(37:29):
You've rationalised that pretty well actually. Yeah, very nice. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
J (37:39):
I think when you're looking for LGBT data, it's really important that you go directly
from the website, or from the organisationitself. Because when these things get reported
on - in many large media organisations - someof the small touches to things are not fully
understood or explained. And so I think gettingit directly from the Chinese source - from
(38:03):
the people who collected the data - is themost legitimate.
OF (38:05):
And there are plenty of organisations out there - some more in the limelight, some
slightly less so - is there one in particularthat you would point people towards for resources?
J (38:16):
I'm trying to not name specific organisations, but the United Nations Development Programme
has worked with some of these organisations.So I'd say those are particularly reliable.
OF (38:26):
Yeah. OK, I'll find the link, and I'll make sure that I post that. Jiyoung, thank
you so much.J: Thank you, thank you so much.
Well, you've been very patient. And I can see exactly the way that you hold yourself
when people do ask you questions, you havea unique way of weaving in information in
a way that's kind and very personal. It speaksto me. And I hope that other people will also
(38:50):
learn something from this recording.J: Thank you. I really appreciate that.
And before I finally let you get on with your weekend - and get out of your hair and
out of your apartment - let me ask you thefinal question which I asked everyone. Which
is, out of everyone who you know in China,who would you recommend that I interview for
the next season of Mosaic of China?J: My friend Emma is an incredibly talented
(39:13):
artist and musician, where a lot of her workcentres on being mixed race and for being
queer. And I think there will be lots of potentialfor some amazing narratives.
Very cool. Thank you so much. J
[Outro]OF: I really hope you learnt as much about
the trans experience as I did from this episode.The positivity of Jiyoung's story should inspire
(39:36):
you. But then also be sure to remember thatcycle of erasure, exclusion, paranoia, pretence,
shame, in-fighting, and all the other potentialdangers that can be a part of the lives of
any misunderstood minority, in any society.
The parts that also resonated with me werethe ones that I remember having in my conversation
with Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode11, who was talking about people on the autism
(40:01):
spectrum in China. We all throw around wordslike tolerance and acceptance, but when it
comes down to it, a lot of this just comesdown to jobs. It's about access to the workforce.
And not just the human dignity part of it,it's the 'putting food on your table and a
roof over your head' part of it. Those partsthat are so boring that in future there'll
hopefully be no need to include stories likeJiyoung's in a podcast series.
(40:26):
Until that time, let me say thank you onceagain to Jiyoung for taking part in today's
show. You can follow the transcript and checkout the extra photos and graphics on the Mosaic
of China website. And as with every otherepisode in the series, there is a longer version
of the conversation available in the PREMIUMversion of the show. Just search for 'Mosaic
of China PREMIUM' on Apple Podcasts; or findus on Patreon and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn].
(40:52):
I've done the calculations, and over the wholeseries there's an extra 375 minutes. That's
6 and a quarter hours of extra content, people!Here are some clips from the extended version
of today's episode.
[Clip 1]J: It was very very painful for me to walk
for about two months. And obviously, the studentshad no idea what I went through.
(41:13):
[Clip 2]J: Gender-fluid people feel very masculine
on one day, feel very feminine on anotherday.
[Clip 3]J: It's possible to be marginalised for one
aspect of your identity, and privileged inanother aspect.
[Clip 4]J: Throughout the entire year, I got hate
mail. Sometimes anonymously, sometimes notanonymously.
[Clip 5]J: If a cisgender woman was to cut her hair
short, it's a masculine presentation, butthat doesn't mean she's any less of a woman.
(41:35):
[Clip 6]J: I mean, there are people who say “Oh,
you're just like a drag queen,” thinkingit's a compliment. When actually it really
isn't a compliment.OF: Oh dear.
J (41:45):
Not that it's bad to be a drag queen. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (41:47):
And with that, all that's left for me to do is to thank all thirty guests from Season
02 of the show. And also the 27 guests fromSeason 01 who came back for a catch-up. It's
been great to see the connectivity betweenthe Mosaic tiles of these two seasons. And
none of those tiles could stick together withoutthe mortar between them, which is you the
listener. Thank you so much for being themost important part of the Mosaic. And thanks
(42:12):
also to Rebecca Kanthor for interviewing mein the bonus episode halfway through the Season,
where we came up with that concept of mortartogether.
I mentioned at the beginning of today's episodethat the conversation with Jiyoung inspired
me personally in a certain way. Well, whatI meant by that is with my final thank you,
which is to Denny Newell. I mention Dennyat the end of every episode, because he does
(42:34):
all the artwork for Mosaic of China. But he'snot just the guy who does the artwork, he's
also my husband. If you've met me in publicor at a Mosaic of China event, or even seen
me on social media, I make no secret of this.But as with Jiyoung, I made the decision to
'go stealth' with that part of my privatelife in this podcast until now. And there
(42:54):
were reasons for this. I always want to focuson the guest, not myself. Secondly, I wanted
this to be a long-term project where I canreveal more about myself gradually rather
than reveal everything at once. I also didn'twant to drag Denny's private life into the
public without knowing exactly what boundarieshe was comfortable with. And finally, I wanted
to present myself as neutrally as possible,so that I can portray stories from all kinds
(43:18):
of different people without being accusedof having some kind of personal agenda.
Well I think I've gone as far as I want towith those ideas. And having had a conversation
about this with him the other day, I thinkDenny has too. So thank you to my husband
Denny Newell. And thank you to all of Denny'sfriends and family listening, who may have
also been starting to feel that it was a littleweird that I hadn't mentioned any of this
(43:41):
until now.
I will be back with a special end-of-seasonWrap-Up episode, which will be an exploration
of more of the themes from the Season, aswell as a glance into what's happening next.
So I'll see you back here for that.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com