December 7, 2020 • 34 mins
With thirty years at L'Oréal, and fifteen of those in leadership roles in mainland China, Stéphane has made a career of anticipating trends in China, and catering to the needs of the powerful and illusive 'Chinese consumer'.
In this episode, we discuss the art and science of consumer insight analysis, through the prism of the beauty industry. We talk about the correlation between beauty and technology, and observe the new trends that are emerging in a post-COVID world.
The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Sanford BROWNE from Season 01 Episode 29. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-29-sanford-browne).
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
02:15 - Part 1
20:04 - Part 2
30:11 - Outro
32:00 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-01-stephane-wilmet.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]SW: Another object.
OF (00:03):
What the hell is that? SW
know what it is.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It has been a long time since I released afull episode, so I’m very glad to be back
with you today. In so many way, life has shrunkfor everyone in 2020, so I’m excited to
(00:28):
hopefully open up some new horizons again,even if just over audio.
Since this is Episode 1 of the Season, justa quick reminder about the format of these
interviews. The first part is a freestyleconversation, starting with the description
of an object that the guest has brought in,which in some way describes their life in
China. In the second part, the guest answers10 questions about their tastes and experiences
(00:52):
in China. And the third part is where theynominate someone to appear in the next season
of Mosaic of China.
So for example, today’s interview is withStéphane Wilmet, who is the Chief Consumer
Officer of L’Oréal in China. And he wasintroduced - in Episode 29 of Season 1 of
the show - by Sanford Browne, who at the timewas the Head of Research and Innovation at
(01:15):
L’Oréal China. And right at the end ofthis episode, I’ve also included a little
extra catch-up interview with Sanford, sothat you can hear what he’s been up to since
last time.
You’re listening to the regular versionof the podcast, if you’d like to hear the
full interview with Stéphane, and indeedthe full interviews in all the 30 episodes
of this Season, please go to the Patreon pageand subscribe there. All the details are also
(01:40):
available at mosaicofchina.com. A big thanksgoes to those who have already subscribed,
mainly because I begged them to. These includea few people who paid extra to get a personal
shout-out on the show, so a special thanksto Beecher Ashley-Brown, Sebastien Denes,
Amanda Argentieri, Jessica Gleeson, Eric Olander,Mike Golden, and Yang Yi.
(02:02):
And finally, the podcast has also been designedto have a strong visual element, so please
add us at @mosaicofchina on Instagram, Facebookor WeChat, and you can follow the images there.
Enough of me, let’s begin.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Stéphane.
SW (02:18):
Really, my pleasure. OF
China, what is your title?SW: I'm the Chief Consumer Officer of L’Oréal
China.OF: Well, we will come into that, of course,
but I would first of all like to play youthe thing that the person who recommended
you in Season 1 said about you last season.So let's just listen to what he said and how
(02:43):
he introduced you.[Start of Audio Clip]
Sanford BROWNE (02:46):
Stéphane Wilmet, he is the one with his fingers on the pulse of what's
really happening with the Chinese consumer,what are the shifts that are happening with
that, and his long history here gives himthe right perspective to be able to offer
them.[End of Audio Clip]
OF (03:01):
Well, that was Sanford. So, tell me about your relationship with Sanford.
SW (03:05):
Now, Sanford lives in Tokyo, as you know, but this is a gentleman who's been all over
China. Yes, he's a man of science, he headsour Research and Innovation department. But
he also has a very good sense of businessand what consumers want.
OF (03:23):
And that's where I can see the two of you being an interesting team, because you've
got someone like him who has a lot of breadth,and then someone like you who of course has
breadth but you have a lot of depth withinthe L’Oréal organisation. Because how many
years have you been with L’Oréal now?SW: Almost 30 years.
Oh, wow. So you've obviously seen it go through different phases, and you yourself
have been around different places in the world.Before we go into that then, the first thing
(03:45):
I ask everyone sitting in that chair is, whatobject did you bring that in some way describes
your life here in China? Oh! Oh, I rememberthese!
SW (03:55):
Do you remember these? OF
OK. So my object is a bill. It's 10 cents in Chinese. For me, it's a symbol of many
of the changes that I've been privileged tobe a witness of, in my time in China. When
I started coming to China, that was wortha lot of money. You could buy a lunch at my
(04:18):
university.OF: Wow.
But today, as you know, you can't buy squat with it.
OF (04:24):
Is it still legal tender? SW
that actually today, nobody actually usesit any more. And there's nothing that costs,
20 RMB and 10 cents. And even more tellinglyis that nobody uses cash, actually.
Yeah SW
(04:44):
So this bill, nobody uses it, nobody seesit anymore. And yet, it is worth more to some
collectors than its face value. You see theirony here? Anyway, it's also a symbol of
something that was part of the daily lifeof Chinese people that was worth a lot. You
fast forward a few years, and it doesn't exist.It has been digitalised, replaced, reinvented.
(05:10):
Well, you're certainly well equipped to talk about this, since this is basically what
you do. You look at trends, and you look athow people are acting and behaving. Tell us
what you do on a daily basis.SW: So I work for L’Oréal China, I'm based
here in Shanghai, it's the headquarters forL’Oréal China. We have 25 beauty brands:
(05:35):
skincare brands, makeup brands, haircare brands,men care, fragrances… Actually, now our
focus is to become the leader of beauty tech.And obviously in China, we know we're at the
forefront of how tech can enable beauty. Andso what I do is work with every team to bring
(05:57):
the point of view of Chinese consumers. Soit means working with our marketing teams,
our sales teams, our training teams, our labteams, finance teams, our operation teams,
our e-commerce teams, our every teams to neverforget that, at the centre of all this, we
need to hear the voice of the consumer. There'ssometimes a temptation to start from the brand.
(06:24):
And the brand point of view. “I'm brandXYZ and I think that this and my product does
that, and…” But is that relevant to whata Chinese consumer, that could be a target
of this brand, wants? And so, my role hasbeen to help our organisation transform our
(06:44):
ways of working from being very product-centricto becoming more consumer-centric.
Very good. And when you were listing all the different departments you work with, you
have to knock their heads together and keepon saying, "think of the consumer”.
SW (07:01):
Every brand has its own personality, every team will work in its own ways. But there
are some very important meetings, or momentsduring the year when different teams will
come together. ‘Double 11’ is coming upvery soon, or it will be Chinese New Year,
(07:22):
or the summer makeup looks are coming… Andit's in those moments that it's important
to either remind what the consumer wants,or is expecting, or help all our teams who
are very aware of that, to just always comeback to that.
OF (07:40):
Mmm, Mmm. So were you in China throughout the whole time? Or have you been pinging back
and forward?SW: I started in France. I then worked in
Hong Kong, this was before Hong Kong was retrocededto mainland China. And then I moved in ’96/’97
to Shanghai. So I was there when we started.OF: And you mentioned before, ‘beauty tech’,
(08:09):
right?SW: Yes. Everybody actually lives in his or
her smartphone. And all the more so for beauty.Consumers do a lot of research, their levels
of expertise is actually very, very high.And that is through a set of apps that bring
(08:32):
together a lot of knowledge.OF: When you say apps, the first thing I think
about are the famous apps that help to changethe photo so that you look different. You
can widen this, and you can shorten that,and you can make this whiter, make this darker.
Is that part of your world? Or is it somethingwhich actually you can ignore?
SW (08:51):
Oh, it’s absolutely part of our world. It's not a joke, it’s extremely serious
for us, but we joke that our competitors arethese technology companies that you mentioned,
these filter changing apps, as well as otherskincare or makeup or fragrance companies.
For many many years, makeup in China was avery very under-penetrated category. It means,
(09:18):
very few women were using makeup. And thena few years ago, maybe 4-5 years ago, the
light bulb went on all over China. And doyou know why?
OF (09:30):
No. Tell me why. SW
4-5 years ago…OF: Oh, OK, so it was better cameras on phones.
SW (09:41):
Exactly. OF
Exactly, all these Chinese smartphone makers started to come up with extremely developed
technologies to transform the phone into yourdaily companion. And so, when consumers starting
doing the ubiquitous… what?OF: Yep, selfie.
Selfie, exactly, then they need to look nice in the ways that they define nice being,
(10:07):
and that's when makeup boomed. So you see,it boomed because of a technology-related
boom.OF: Well I can see, actually, the parallels
between what makeup does in the real worldversus what these apps do in the digital world.
They're both Augmented Reality after all.SW: You're absolutely right. And the role
(10:28):
that Augmented Reality is going to play, isgoing to be greater and greater. You know
that everyone has his or her avatar now. Therewill be a day when we will be launching makeup
or skincare for avatars. Stay tuned, Oscar.OF: Wow. What you're making me think of is
(10:48):
how, all these traditional companies - andwe're talking here about beauty products,
but we could be talking about anything - youwould never have thought, 10 years ago, that
your competitor was a digital company. Andyet, here we are, right?
And that's the beauty of being in China. Because these trends, they scale up very quickly.
So for us, we pivoted in L’Oréal, we shifted.We're not going to be the number one beauty
(11:15):
company only anymore, We're going to be thenumber one beauty tech company, because tech
and beauty, they are a perfect match. To analyseyour skin, to do a skin diagnostic, to understand
your skin tone…OF: …Or even to model how your face will
age in the future.SW: You're very right. To understand the ageing
(11:37):
of skin of Chinese people linked to the specificitiesof China.
OF (11:44):
Let me jump in and go back to something you said before. Which was about how, when
you see trends in China, they have a tendencyto scale very fast. And I guess that is what
your job is, to make sure that when thesetrends do explode in China, that you are ahead
of them.SW: Our experiences have been that trends
(12:05):
don't show up. The key is to link the dots,and then think, “what do they mean?” I
mentioned earlier, the smartphone, we haddone countless studies about why women didn't
buy makeup, or what we should do in termsof better textures, or whatever. But when
we started spotting people taking selfies,posting selfies, the the real birth of social
(12:29):
media here, we were able to link the needfor makeup, but also hair colour, that this
would entail. And then we could go back tobrands who were saying “I'm not going to
launch in China, there's no future for makeup,or…” go back and say “No, connect the
dots, look at what's happening.”OF: That's a fascinating skillset. When I
hear that, it makes me think about big datain its entirety, how we are bombarded with
(12:54):
these little points of data. But the skillsetwe need now is to filter out the things that
aren't important, and make connections withthe ones that are, right?
SW (13:04):
You're very right, we're inundated with data, especially in China, at the scale of
China. So finding data, that's not the issue.It's the insights, that's the more difficult,
but also of course, the more enjoyable partof the equation.
OF (13:20):
And how do you exercise those muscles then, in terms of being able to connect these
dots? Do you just wallow in the data? Or doyou make connections with your personal life,
and then have an ‘aha’ moment? Or howdo you actually get to the solution.
SW (13:34):
The last thing I want to do is bring my personal life into this process, because I'm
not the young consumer of beauty of China.So the one thing is, to remove oneself. The
beauty of our beauty industry is that consumerslove to post their comments, give their rating,
(13:58):
review other people's comments… So we allread these reviews, we all read the ratings.
It's free, it's plentiful, it's meaningful,and it's there. And it's the real voice of
consumers saying “Ah, I received this lipstick,and when I opened it here's what I found out,
and they tell you to use it this way, butif you do it my way, you'll see that it lasts
(14:23):
longer, or it's actually more matte, or…”Every day, it's so refreshing to be able to
get direct feedback from our consumers.OF: What are the trends that you see that
perhaps the average listener would be surprisedto hear about?
Say skincare, in the Western markets, anti-age skincare for wrinkles, skincare for
(14:47):
early signs of ageing, that's usually womenand men around 35-40 years old, when the wrinkles
start to show up. Now, any idea how old oryoung a Chinese consumer using the same anti-ageing
skincare products is here?OF: You're leading me in one direction.
(15:09):
I’m leading you. OF
Around 22, 23 years old. OF
They’re using it. OF
Why? Because this links back to Chinese culture, the Chinese culture of prevention.
Just the general culture that you want tokeep the balance, you don't wait for things
to be broken to then fix them. You preventthis from happening. Now, what does it mean
(15:36):
for us, L’Oréal, and our beauty brands?Of course, the texture, the routine, the needs
of a 35- or 40-year-old woman in Europe hasnothing to do with those of a 22-year old
Chinese young lady. So we have to adapt theformula, we have to adapt the packaging. Same
(16:02):
brand, same product name, but within a brand,you can have different ranges, some that are
more in the ‘prevent’ categories, andsome that are more in the ‘corrective’
categories. But now that China is so importantfor the beauty business, now that Chinese
consumers are such a key constituent of beautyas an industry, when we come out with a new
(16:27):
product we have the Chinese consumer in minddirectly.
OF (16:32):
Fascinating. And what have you learned, with your finger on the pulse, about how China
and the Chinese consumer has pivoted in thisspecial time?
SW (16:43):
We all saw how resilient people were here. They dealt with the crisis and moved on. Now
it's not over, we're still learning, we stillhave to see what the more long-term impact
of this COVID-19 crisis will have in termsof behaviours, in terms of mindset. But already,
(17:04):
very clearly, we see some very important traits.People stayed home, right? A lot of people
used that time to watch tutorials, to watchlive streamers, to learn new makeup skills,
new beauty skills.OF: And you're saying this in an anecdotal
(17:25):
way, but this is backed up by data, right?SW: Absolutely. Because we can see, through
numerous ways, what people were doing. Audiencesfor certain shows, on different platforms
in China. And then you can see the directlink of what was being discussed, to what
was being sold. Because retail didn’t stopduring this crisis, just morphed a bit more
(17:49):
into the digital, e-commerce world, but nothingstopped. And then, coming out of COVID-19,
definitely more rationality. It doesn't meanthat people were not rational, and now they're
rational. It just means if they were a littlebit rational, they come out of COVID-19 a
bit more rational; if they were very rational,they're extremely rational. So they're thinking
(18:12):
about why they're buying this product.OF: …Which, you mean, is less impulsive
stuff.SW: In a way. Or, from a different angle,
it's up to us to create more excitement, tocreate the new triggers…
OF (18:28):
…To stimulate the impulse. SW
How interesting. And that's a trend which you saw happening during, and has now sustained
beyond it, or is it something which you thinkwill die down?
SW (18:39):
It's something that is still going, and we see it as a very deep trend. It's a reality
check. China pressed on the pause button duringthis crisis. This had never happened, as we
know, in the last 20+ years.OF: Yeah
Pause? People have time, they think, they re-evaluate. And now what happened is they
(19:03):
unpaused, and it's fast forward again, butin a new way.
OF (19:07):
Yes, it has been funny how quickly things returned to normal here, in a way that is
hard for others to understand. That's somethingwhere perhaps you can see more on what's going
on under the surface.SW: I think many people call it the new normal,
because people have a much heightened senseof safety, hygiene, health…
(19:30):
…Which was borne out in terms of what they were purchasing, of course. What was
being purchased more?SW: Oh definitely hand creams, for instance.
We saw that skincare, haircare and even makeupto a certain degree, in this era that we called
“beauty with a mask” has not stopped.We're back to where we were, it's just that
(19:50):
maybe people are buying different things withinskincare, or within makeup, or within haircare.
Well, thank you so much for that, Stéphane. We're now going to go on to Part 2.
SW (20:02):
Great.
[Part 2]OF: OK, are you ready?
Yeah. OF
China related fact?SW: I think my all-time favourite China-related
piece of trivia is this foreign policy anecdotethat everybody knows. It’s the story of
(20:23):
the Chinese Premier, 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái],the Premier of Chairman Mao, his response
to a question from Henry Kissinger. This isthe early 1970s when Nixon and Kissinger are
engaging in direct talks with the PRC. And周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái] is asked by Kissinger
(20:45):
to assess the impact of the French Revolution.And as the story goes, Premiere 周恩来
[Zhōu Ēnlái] responds, “it's too earlyto tell”. But what is interesting is what
lies behind the story. Because in China, there'salways layers and layers to decode. Actually
(21:10):
one of the translators for Kissinger, a fewyears ago, maybe 3-4 years ago, came out to
say that this was a miss-told story. Whatreally took place, according to him, is that
Prime Minister 周 [Zhōu] misunderstood thequestion, and rather than being asked to give
his point of view on the impact of the FrenchRevolution of those events of 1789, he thought
(21:36):
he was being asked about the student proteststhat hit Paris in 1968. So you see, in this
context 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái]’s answerwas very sensible. Taken out of its context,
with the years having polished the story intoalmost a myth, it's totally different. It
became an example of the patient and farsightednature of Chinese leaders who think in increments
(22:02):
of centuries, as opposed to the short-termismof our Western democratic politicians. But
in recalling the exchange, this one translatorsaid “there was a misunderstanding that
was too delicious to invite correction”.And as it happens, this example, to me, reveals
the difference between a story that is true,and one that contains a good deal of truth.
(22:28):
That's China, for me. It's a question thatleads to another question, a layer to another
layer, but always a good story.OF: Yes. I love it. Thank you. Do you have
a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?SW: I want to quote a poet from the Tang Dynasty,
his name is 白居易 [Bái Jūyì], wherehe tries to express his perplexity about another
(22:54):
philosopher, 老子 [Lǎozi], the founderof Taoism. And it’s written in classical
Chinese, so very hard to understand, but thetitle of his poem is “Reading 老子 [Lǎozi]”.
He’s quoting (23:05):
“Those who speak don't know. And those who know, don't speak. This I have
heard from 老子 [Lǎozi]. But if we saythat 老子 [Lǎozi] is someone who knows,
why did he himself write a book of 5000 characters?”OF: The paradox.
SW (23:25):
So the paradox. And it's like the first point with 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái] for me:
China, the Chinese culture, is always a sourceof questioning, of looking beyond what you
see or what you read.OF: So can you say that in Chinese?
Sure, it’s
[Cǐ yǔ wú wén yú lǎo jūn], 若道老君是知者[Ruò dào lǎo jūn shì zhì zhě], 缘何自著五千文
[Yuánhé zìzhe wǔqiān wén]. OF (23:53):
Very nice. Number three, what is your favourite
destination within China?SW: I've been lucky to have travelled to many
places in China, but Beijing remains my favouritedestination. So much culture, so many places.
(24:13):
And also, of course, for me a lot of memories.It combines modernity and traditions. And
a friend of mine told me, quite rightly so,that if Shanghai is the heart of China, Beijing
is its head. It's the brain. It's a cold city,it’s a mysterious city, but it's a powerful
(24:36):
city, it’s an energising city, at the scaleof China.
OF (24:40):
Wow. Nicely said, especially since this programme has been largely Shanghai-weighted,
and I like the idea of sharing some of thatweight with Beijing. Next question. If you
left China, what would you miss the most?And what would you miss the least?
SW (24:55):
I think I would miss the ‘ding ding ding’, you know, those tricyclers, the peddlers
on their tricycles. I would miss this music.I don't know how we would call them, tricyclers?
They’re recyclers on tricycles. And in thismodern city, with so many millions of people
(25:17):
that is so tech-advanced, this little music,it comes from another time.
OF (25:23):
And what about the thing that you would miss the least?
SW (25:25):
What I would miss the least? Everybody knows everything about you. Everything. You
know, what time you went out, what time youcame back, what time your kids, what did they
do, why you're this, why you’re that…And so at some point, it becomes too much.
OF (25:41):
That's actually a good point. Is there anything that still surprises you about life
in China?SW: Every day, all the time. Because again,
when I think I finally figured out why orwhat this means, that's exactly when the cards
turn. And I realise, I don't know. So I'mevery day constantly amazed and reminded.
(26:05):
Next question, where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang
out?SW: I'll tell you where it is, it’s where
sometimes we bump into one another, it’s安福路 [Ānfú Lù]. And I'll tell you
why. Because we used to live there, with mywife Sophie and our kids, 25 years ago. And
I can tell you at that time, we were the onlyforeigners in that street. And the transformation
(26:31):
over the years is amazing. Now you see allthese KOLs coming to 安福路 [Ānfú Lù],
around 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù], taking pictures.It's a street that's always reinventing itself.
And to have seen it from when it wasn't that,to where it is today, it just adds meaning
to the experience of that very beautiful street.OF: Mmm. What is the best or worst purchase
(26:56):
you have made in China?SW: Ha, I brought to you one of the many worst
purchases I ever made in China. So I willshow you.
Ooh an extra object. I like it. SW
What the hell is that? SW
know what it is. It's the type of thing thatyou're supposed to use when you want to turn
(27:17):
the rice.OF: Is it? OK.
SW (27:20):
And then you can pour the water out through the skimmer here, and keep the rice. But of
course, look at the design.OF: It’s too small. Yeah.
It’s too small, it doesn't work. So one of those ‘looks great on the Taobao,
but ends up being useless in real life’.OF: Oh, that's great. That's the first time
someone's brought in their worst object. Iappreciate that. You've elevated the question
(27:42):
now. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?SW: Let me send it to you.
OF (27:47):
Oh, here it is. Can you explain what's going on here?
SW (27:51):
For me, this one sums up what I experience every day. You know, in the West, we have
this image of the hamster in the hamster wheel.You know, running and running and running
on the wheel, but going nowhere. But herein China, I feel that it's always up, up.
You're always going somewhere better, morechallenging, at a pace that accelerates. Up
(28:14):
or out. There's no going nowhere or no standingstill, here in China.
OF (28:19):
Mmm. What’s your go-to song to sing at KTV?
SW (28:23):
I do have a song. It's from an older Chinese rock singer called 许巍 [Xǔ Wēi]. It's
called The Blue Lotus. And I like it, it’svery interesting. The lyrics are quite easy.
And the tonality, there’s no real ups anddowns, very Zen. So for me, very easy to sing,
(28:43):
or easier to sing.OF: OK. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
China Daily. And some of my friends, or some acquaintances, they find this very really
strange. But I think the business sectionof the China Daily, there is not a day when
(29:04):
I don't learn something, a statistic, a number,an insight, it's really interesting.
OF (29:12):
Thank you so much, Stéphane. SW
always a pleasure.OF: Well, the final thing before you leave
is (29:20):
who, out of everyone you know in China, should I interview in the next season of Mosaic
of China?SW: Since you mentioned extending the reach
outside of Shanghai and more towards Beijing,I thought of one gentleman. His name is Jim,
Jim Spear. He is a fabulous person, you willlove him. He was in the wine business before
(29:46):
this was a business. He'll explain to youhis eco tourism project that he's been so
successful at these days, pioneering it beforeecotourism was a thing in China. So enjoy
your discussions with Jim.OF: Thank you so much, Stéphane, I can't
wait to meet Jim. And thank you once againfor your time today.
SW (30:08):
My pleasure. Many thanks, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: And there we have it, a great start to
Season 2. Thanks again to Stéphane for histime. If you want to follow the English - or
indeed all the Chinese - from this episode,then head to the Transcripts link on Stéphane’s
page at mosaicofchina.com. And while you’rethere, you can also click the link to subscribe
(30:30):
to the PREMIUM version, here are a few clipsfrom today’s episode…
[Clip 1]SW: So in a way China invented crypto-currency
decades ago.[Clip 2]
We were one of the very first companies not to start with a joint venture.
[Clip 3]SW (With a strong French accent): I don't
know what you mean, Mr. Oscar.[Clip 4]
We don't know who that famous Chinese consumer is. There is no Chinese consumer.
(30:54):
[Clip 5]OF: Oh dear, you're making me feel like a
bit of an egotist.[End of Audio Clips]
OF (31:00):
You’re only going to keep hearing more of these clips as the Season progresses, so
I hope they convince you to subscribe soonerrather than later! And then there are the
extra images that I’ve posted on socialmedia, which this week include: Stéphane
and his object, the 一角 [Yījiǎo] banknotethat’s equivalent to one tenth of a Chinese
元 [Yuán]; his favourite WeChat sticker,the one which he describes as the equivalent
(31:23):
of the hamster wheel in China; some nice photosthat Stéphane shared with me from his life
at L’Oréal, including one with the famousKan Yuesai, whose brand ‘Yuesai’ was bought
by L’Oréal back in 2004; and many more.Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork
by Denny Newell. Stick around for a shortenedversion of my catch-up interview with Sanford
(31:45):
Browne from Season 01, and I’ll see youagain next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Well, tell me, where do I find you now?
Sanford Browne (32:03):
So you find me now in Tokyo. New role, I am now responsible for all of
Asia for L’Oréal Research and Innovation,based here in Tokyo.
OF (32:16):
And you moved to Japan shortly after our recording. So you've been there now for over
a year by now, right?SB: Yes, that's right.
And so what has been your COVID story? SB
that everyone has been healthy, from a familystandpoint, and from a work standpoint. You
(32:40):
know, a lot of the things that make Tokyomagical involve the after-work going for dinner,
having a beer. All of those little izakayas- little small places - are not always the
places where you should go in terms of COVIDsafety. They’re very close, people are talking
without the masks, they’re drinking whatever.So you haven't been able to experience all
(33:03):
of what Japan has to offer in that context.And also some restrictions about travel, that
I couldn't leave and return, so that leftme not being able to see my family. And then
my family still can't come in. So that's alittle disheartening, but I'm hopeful that
not too long in the future, we'll be ableto get through that.
(33:24):
Oh, good. And you and I still communicate on WeChat. But are you now doing other things?
Are you on LINE, for example?SB: I have LINE and WhatsApp. But it's like
going back to the 1920s. It just… it's sobackwards. I feel the only thing I really
use is WeChat. And then when I have to communicatewith somebody on some other social network,
(33:47):
I use that. So that's still to me the goldstandard, and the other ones are very far
way away.OF: Well, look, thank you Sanford. It's very
nice to have this excuse to catch up withyou, and for you to continue being part of,
you know, the Mosaic family. Let’s definitelykeep in touch.
SB (34:03):
Great Oscar, thanks for reaching out, and it's good to connect with more people.
[Trailer]SW: Another object.
OF (00:03):
What the hell is that? SW
know what it is.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It has been a long time since I released afull episode, so I’m very glad to be back
with you today. In so many way, life has shrunkfor everyone in 2020, so I’m excited to
(00:28):
hopefully open up some new horizons again,even if just over audio.
Since this is Episode 1 of the Season, justa quick reminder about the format of these
interviews. The first part is a freestyleconversation, starting with the description
of an object that the guest has brought in,which in some way describes their life in
China. In the second part, the guest answers10 questions about their tastes and experiences
(00:52):
in China. And the third part is where theynominate someone to appear in the next season
of Mosaic of China.
So for example, today’s interview is withStéphane Wilmet, who is the Chief Consumer
Officer of L’Oréal in China. And he wasintroduced - in Episode 29 of Season 1 of
the show - by Sanford Browne, who at the timewas the Head of Research and Innovation at
(01:15):
L’Oréal China. And right at the end ofthis episode, I’ve also included a little
extra catch-up interview with Sanford, sothat you can hear what he’s been up to since
last time.
You’re listening to the regular versionof the podcast, if you’d like to hear the
full interview with Stéphane, and indeedthe full interviews in all the 30 episodes
of this Season, please go to the Patreon pageand subscribe there. All the details are also
(01:40):
available at mosaicofchina.com. A big thanksgoes to those who have already subscribed,
mainly because I begged them to. These includea few people who paid extra to get a personal
shout-out on the show, so a special thanksto Beecher Ashley-Brown, Sebastien Denes,
Amanda Argentieri, Jessica Gleeson, Eric Olander,Mike Golden, and Yang Yi.
(02:02):
And finally, the podcast has also been designedto have a strong visual element, so please
add us at @mosaicofchina on Instagram, Facebookor WeChat, and you can follow the images there.
Enough of me, let’s begin.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming, Stéphane.
SW (02:18):
Really, my pleasure. OF
China, what is your title?SW: I'm the Chief Consumer Officer of L’Oréal
China.OF: Well, we will come into that, of course,
but I would first of all like to play youthe thing that the person who recommended
you in Season 1 said about you last season.So let's just listen to what he said and how
(02:43):
he introduced you.[Start of Audio Clip]
Sanford BROWNE (02:46):
Stéphane Wilmet, he is the one with his fingers on the pulse of what's
really happening with the Chinese consumer,what are the shifts that are happening with
that, and his long history here gives himthe right perspective to be able to offer
them.[End of Audio Clip]
OF (03:01):
Well, that was Sanford. So, tell me about your relationship with Sanford.
SW (03:05):
Now, Sanford lives in Tokyo, as you know, but this is a gentleman who's been all over
China. Yes, he's a man of science, he headsour Research and Innovation department. But
he also has a very good sense of businessand what consumers want.
OF (03:23):
And that's where I can see the two of you being an interesting team, because you've
got someone like him who has a lot of breadth,and then someone like you who of course has
breadth but you have a lot of depth withinthe L’Oréal organisation. Because how many
years have you been with L’Oréal now?SW: Almost 30 years.
Oh, wow. So you've obviously seen it go through different phases, and you yourself
have been around different places in the world.Before we go into that then, the first thing
(03:45):
I ask everyone sitting in that chair is, whatobject did you bring that in some way describes
your life here in China? Oh! Oh, I rememberthese!
SW (03:55):
Do you remember these? OF
OK. So my object is a bill. It's 10 cents in Chinese. For me, it's a symbol of many
of the changes that I've been privileged tobe a witness of, in my time in China. When
I started coming to China, that was wortha lot of money. You could buy a lunch at my
(04:18):
university.OF: Wow.
But today, as you know, you can't buy squat with it.
OF (04:24):
Is it still legal tender? SW
that actually today, nobody actually usesit any more. And there's nothing that costs,
20 RMB and 10 cents. And even more tellinglyis that nobody uses cash, actually.
Yeah SW
(04:44):
So this bill, nobody uses it, nobody seesit anymore. And yet, it is worth more to some
collectors than its face value. You see theirony here? Anyway, it's also a symbol of
something that was part of the daily lifeof Chinese people that was worth a lot. You
fast forward a few years, and it doesn't exist.It has been digitalised, replaced, reinvented.
(05:10):
Well, you're certainly well equipped to talk about this, since this is basically what
you do. You look at trends, and you look athow people are acting and behaving. Tell us
what you do on a daily basis.SW: So I work for L’Oréal China, I'm based
here in Shanghai, it's the headquarters forL’Oréal China. We have 25 beauty brands:
(05:35):
skincare brands, makeup brands, haircare brands,men care, fragrances… Actually, now our
focus is to become the leader of beauty tech.And obviously in China, we know we're at the
forefront of how tech can enable beauty. Andso what I do is work with every team to bring
(05:57):
the point of view of Chinese consumers. Soit means working with our marketing teams,
our sales teams, our training teams, our labteams, finance teams, our operation teams,
our e-commerce teams, our every teams to neverforget that, at the centre of all this, we
need to hear the voice of the consumer. There'ssometimes a temptation to start from the brand.
(06:24):
And the brand point of view. “I'm brandXYZ and I think that this and my product does
that, and…” But is that relevant to whata Chinese consumer, that could be a target
of this brand, wants? And so, my role hasbeen to help our organisation transform our
(06:44):
ways of working from being very product-centricto becoming more consumer-centric.
Very good. And when you were listing all the different departments you work with, you
have to knock their heads together and keepon saying, "think of the consumer”.
SW (07:01):
Every brand has its own personality, every team will work in its own ways. But there
are some very important meetings, or momentsduring the year when different teams will
come together. ‘Double 11’ is coming upvery soon, or it will be Chinese New Year,
(07:22):
or the summer makeup looks are coming… Andit's in those moments that it's important
to either remind what the consumer wants,or is expecting, or help all our teams who
are very aware of that, to just always comeback to that.
OF (07:40):
Mmm, Mmm. So were you in China throughout the whole time? Or have you been pinging back
and forward?SW: I started in France. I then worked in
Hong Kong, this was before Hong Kong was retrocededto mainland China. And then I moved in ’96/’97
to Shanghai. So I was there when we started.OF: And you mentioned before, ‘beauty tech’,
(08:09):
right?SW: Yes. Everybody actually lives in his or
her smartphone. And all the more so for beauty.Consumers do a lot of research, their levels
of expertise is actually very, very high.And that is through a set of apps that bring
(08:32):
together a lot of knowledge.OF: When you say apps, the first thing I think
about are the famous apps that help to changethe photo so that you look different. You
can widen this, and you can shorten that,and you can make this whiter, make this darker.
Is that part of your world? Or is it somethingwhich actually you can ignore?
SW (08:51):
Oh, it’s absolutely part of our world. It's not a joke, it’s extremely serious
for us, but we joke that our competitors arethese technology companies that you mentioned,
these filter changing apps, as well as otherskincare or makeup or fragrance companies.
For many many years, makeup in China was avery very under-penetrated category. It means,
(09:18):
very few women were using makeup. And thena few years ago, maybe 4-5 years ago, the
light bulb went on all over China. And doyou know why?
OF (09:30):
No. Tell me why. SW
4-5 years ago…OF: Oh, OK, so it was better cameras on phones.
SW (09:41):
Exactly. OF
Exactly, all these Chinese smartphone makers started to come up with extremely developed
technologies to transform the phone into yourdaily companion. And so, when consumers starting
doing the ubiquitous… what?OF: Yep, selfie.
Selfie, exactly, then they need to look nice in the ways that they define nice being,
(10:07):
and that's when makeup boomed. So you see,it boomed because of a technology-related
boom.OF: Well I can see, actually, the parallels
between what makeup does in the real worldversus what these apps do in the digital world.
They're both Augmented Reality after all.SW: You're absolutely right. And the role
(10:28):
that Augmented Reality is going to play, isgoing to be greater and greater. You know
that everyone has his or her avatar now. Therewill be a day when we will be launching makeup
or skincare for avatars. Stay tuned, Oscar.OF: Wow. What you're making me think of is
(10:48):
how, all these traditional companies - andwe're talking here about beauty products,
but we could be talking about anything - youwould never have thought, 10 years ago, that
your competitor was a digital company. Andyet, here we are, right?
And that's the beauty of being in China. Because these trends, they scale up very quickly.
So for us, we pivoted in L’Oréal, we shifted.We're not going to be the number one beauty
(11:15):
company only anymore, We're going to be thenumber one beauty tech company, because tech
and beauty, they are a perfect match. To analyseyour skin, to do a skin diagnostic, to understand
your skin tone…OF: …Or even to model how your face will
age in the future.SW: You're very right. To understand the ageing
(11:37):
of skin of Chinese people linked to the specificitiesof China.
OF (11:44):
Let me jump in and go back to something you said before. Which was about how, when
you see trends in China, they have a tendencyto scale very fast. And I guess that is what
your job is, to make sure that when thesetrends do explode in China, that you are ahead
of them.SW: Our experiences have been that trends
(12:05):
don't show up. The key is to link the dots,and then think, “what do they mean?” I
mentioned earlier, the smartphone, we haddone countless studies about why women didn't
buy makeup, or what we should do in termsof better textures, or whatever. But when
we started spotting people taking selfies,posting selfies, the the real birth of social
(12:29):
media here, we were able to link the needfor makeup, but also hair colour, that this
would entail. And then we could go back tobrands who were saying “I'm not going to
launch in China, there's no future for makeup,or…” go back and say “No, connect the
dots, look at what's happening.”OF: That's a fascinating skillset. When I
hear that, it makes me think about big datain its entirety, how we are bombarded with
(12:54):
these little points of data. But the skillsetwe need now is to filter out the things that
aren't important, and make connections withthe ones that are, right?
SW (13:04):
You're very right, we're inundated with data, especially in China, at the scale of
China. So finding data, that's not the issue.It's the insights, that's the more difficult,
but also of course, the more enjoyable partof the equation.
OF (13:20):
And how do you exercise those muscles then, in terms of being able to connect these
dots? Do you just wallow in the data? Or doyou make connections with your personal life,
and then have an ‘aha’ moment? Or howdo you actually get to the solution.
SW (13:34):
The last thing I want to do is bring my personal life into this process, because I'm
not the young consumer of beauty of China.So the one thing is, to remove oneself. The
beauty of our beauty industry is that consumerslove to post their comments, give their rating,
(13:58):
review other people's comments… So we allread these reviews, we all read the ratings.
It's free, it's plentiful, it's meaningful,and it's there. And it's the real voice of
consumers saying “Ah, I received this lipstick,and when I opened it here's what I found out,
and they tell you to use it this way, butif you do it my way, you'll see that it lasts
(14:23):
longer, or it's actually more matte, or…”Every day, it's so refreshing to be able to
get direct feedback from our consumers.OF: What are the trends that you see that
perhaps the average listener would be surprisedto hear about?
Say skincare, in the Western markets, anti-age skincare for wrinkles, skincare for
(14:47):
early signs of ageing, that's usually womenand men around 35-40 years old, when the wrinkles
start to show up. Now, any idea how old oryoung a Chinese consumer using the same anti-ageing
skincare products is here?OF: You're leading me in one direction.
(15:09):
I’m leading you. OF
Around 22, 23 years old. OF
They’re using it. OF
Why? Because this links back to Chinese culture, the Chinese culture of prevention.
Just the general culture that you want tokeep the balance, you don't wait for things
to be broken to then fix them. You preventthis from happening. Now, what does it mean
(15:36):
for us, L’Oréal, and our beauty brands?Of course, the texture, the routine, the needs
of a 35- or 40-year-old woman in Europe hasnothing to do with those of a 22-year old
Chinese young lady. So we have to adapt theformula, we have to adapt the packaging. Same
(16:02):
brand, same product name, but within a brand,you can have different ranges, some that are
more in the ‘prevent’ categories, andsome that are more in the ‘corrective’
categories. But now that China is so importantfor the beauty business, now that Chinese
consumers are such a key constituent of beautyas an industry, when we come out with a new
(16:27):
product we have the Chinese consumer in minddirectly.
OF (16:32):
Fascinating. And what have you learned, with your finger on the pulse, about how China
and the Chinese consumer has pivoted in thisspecial time?
SW (16:43):
We all saw how resilient people were here. They dealt with the crisis and moved on. Now
it's not over, we're still learning, we stillhave to see what the more long-term impact
of this COVID-19 crisis will have in termsof behaviours, in terms of mindset. But already,
(17:04):
very clearly, we see some very important traits.People stayed home, right? A lot of people
used that time to watch tutorials, to watchlive streamers, to learn new makeup skills,
new beauty skills.OF: And you're saying this in an anecdotal
(17:25):
way, but this is backed up by data, right?SW: Absolutely. Because we can see, through
numerous ways, what people were doing. Audiencesfor certain shows, on different platforms
in China. And then you can see the directlink of what was being discussed, to what
was being sold. Because retail didn’t stopduring this crisis, just morphed a bit more
(17:49):
into the digital, e-commerce world, but nothingstopped. And then, coming out of COVID-19,
definitely more rationality. It doesn't meanthat people were not rational, and now they're
rational. It just means if they were a littlebit rational, they come out of COVID-19 a
bit more rational; if they were very rational,they're extremely rational. So they're thinking
(18:12):
about why they're buying this product.OF: …Which, you mean, is less impulsive
stuff.SW: In a way. Or, from a different angle,
it's up to us to create more excitement, tocreate the new triggers…
OF (18:28):
…To stimulate the impulse. SW
How interesting. And that's a trend which you saw happening during, and has now sustained
beyond it, or is it something which you thinkwill die down?
SW (18:39):
It's something that is still going, and we see it as a very deep trend. It's a reality
check. China pressed on the pause button duringthis crisis. This had never happened, as we
know, in the last 20+ years.OF: Yeah
Pause? People have time, they think, they re-evaluate. And now what happened is they
(19:03):
unpaused, and it's fast forward again, butin a new way.
OF (19:07):
Yes, it has been funny how quickly things returned to normal here, in a way that is
hard for others to understand. That's somethingwhere perhaps you can see more on what's going
on under the surface.SW: I think many people call it the new normal,
because people have a much heightened senseof safety, hygiene, health…
(19:30):
…Which was borne out in terms of what they were purchasing, of course. What was
being purchased more?SW: Oh definitely hand creams, for instance.
We saw that skincare, haircare and even makeupto a certain degree, in this era that we called
“beauty with a mask” has not stopped.We're back to where we were, it's just that
(19:50):
maybe people are buying different things withinskincare, or within makeup, or within haircare.
Well, thank you so much for that, Stéphane. We're now going to go on to Part 2.
SW (20:02):
Great.
[Part 2]OF: OK, are you ready?
Yeah. OF
China related fact?SW: I think my all-time favourite China-related
piece of trivia is this foreign policy anecdotethat everybody knows. It’s the story of
(20:23):
the Chinese Premier, 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái],the Premier of Chairman Mao, his response
to a question from Henry Kissinger. This isthe early 1970s when Nixon and Kissinger are
engaging in direct talks with the PRC. And周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái] is asked by Kissinger
(20:45):
to assess the impact of the French Revolution.And as the story goes, Premiere 周恩来
[Zhōu Ēnlái] responds, “it's too earlyto tell”. But what is interesting is what
lies behind the story. Because in China, there'salways layers and layers to decode. Actually
(21:10):
one of the translators for Kissinger, a fewyears ago, maybe 3-4 years ago, came out to
say that this was a miss-told story. Whatreally took place, according to him, is that
Prime Minister 周 [Zhōu] misunderstood thequestion, and rather than being asked to give
his point of view on the impact of the FrenchRevolution of those events of 1789, he thought
(21:36):
he was being asked about the student proteststhat hit Paris in 1968. So you see, in this
context 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái]’s answerwas very sensible. Taken out of its context,
with the years having polished the story intoalmost a myth, it's totally different. It
became an example of the patient and farsightednature of Chinese leaders who think in increments
(22:02):
of centuries, as opposed to the short-termismof our Western democratic politicians. But
in recalling the exchange, this one translatorsaid “there was a misunderstanding that
was too delicious to invite correction”.And as it happens, this example, to me, reveals
the difference between a story that is true,and one that contains a good deal of truth.
(22:28):
That's China, for me. It's a question thatleads to another question, a layer to another
layer, but always a good story.OF: Yes. I love it. Thank you. Do you have
a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?SW: I want to quote a poet from the Tang Dynasty,
his name is 白居易 [Bái Jūyì], wherehe tries to express his perplexity about another
(22:54):
philosopher, 老子 [Lǎozi], the founderof Taoism. And it’s written in classical
Chinese, so very hard to understand, but thetitle of his poem is “Reading 老子 [Lǎozi]”.
He’s quoting (23:05):
“Those who speak don't know. And those who know, don't speak. This I have
heard from 老子 [Lǎozi]. But if we saythat 老子 [Lǎozi] is someone who knows,
why did he himself write a book of 5000 characters?”OF: The paradox.
SW (23:25):
So the paradox. And it's like the first point with 周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái] for me:
China, the Chinese culture, is always a sourceof questioning, of looking beyond what you
see or what you read.OF: So can you say that in Chinese?
Sure, it’s
[Cǐ yǔ wú wén yú lǎo jūn], 若道老君是知者[Ruò dào lǎo jūn shì zhì zhě], 缘何自著五千文
[Yuánhé zìzhe wǔqiān wén]. OF (23:53):
Very nice. Number three, what is your favourite
destination within China?SW: I've been lucky to have travelled to many
places in China, but Beijing remains my favouritedestination. So much culture, so many places.
(24:13):
And also, of course, for me a lot of memories.It combines modernity and traditions. And
a friend of mine told me, quite rightly so,that if Shanghai is the heart of China, Beijing
is its head. It's the brain. It's a cold city,it’s a mysterious city, but it's a powerful
(24:36):
city, it’s an energising city, at the scaleof China.
OF (24:40):
Wow. Nicely said, especially since this programme has been largely Shanghai-weighted,
and I like the idea of sharing some of thatweight with Beijing. Next question. If you
left China, what would you miss the most?And what would you miss the least?
SW (24:55):
I think I would miss the ‘ding ding ding’, you know, those tricyclers, the peddlers
on their tricycles. I would miss this music.I don't know how we would call them, tricyclers?
They’re recyclers on tricycles. And in thismodern city, with so many millions of people
(25:17):
that is so tech-advanced, this little music,it comes from another time.
OF (25:23):
And what about the thing that you would miss the least?
SW (25:25):
What I would miss the least? Everybody knows everything about you. Everything. You
know, what time you went out, what time youcame back, what time your kids, what did they
do, why you're this, why you’re that…And so at some point, it becomes too much.
OF (25:41):
That's actually a good point. Is there anything that still surprises you about life
in China?SW: Every day, all the time. Because again,
when I think I finally figured out why orwhat this means, that's exactly when the cards
turn. And I realise, I don't know. So I'mevery day constantly amazed and reminded.
(26:05):
Next question, where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang
out?SW: I'll tell you where it is, it’s where
sometimes we bump into one another, it’s安福路 [Ānfú Lù]. And I'll tell you
why. Because we used to live there, with mywife Sophie and our kids, 25 years ago. And
I can tell you at that time, we were the onlyforeigners in that street. And the transformation
(26:31):
over the years is amazing. Now you see allthese KOLs coming to 安福路 [Ānfú Lù],
around 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù], taking pictures.It's a street that's always reinventing itself.
And to have seen it from when it wasn't that,to where it is today, it just adds meaning
to the experience of that very beautiful street.OF: Mmm. What is the best or worst purchase
(26:56):
you have made in China?SW: Ha, I brought to you one of the many worst
purchases I ever made in China. So I willshow you.
Ooh an extra object. I like it. SW
What the hell is that? SW
know what it is. It's the type of thing thatyou're supposed to use when you want to turn
(27:17):
the rice.OF: Is it? OK.
SW (27:20):
And then you can pour the water out through the skimmer here, and keep the rice. But of
course, look at the design.OF: It’s too small. Yeah.
It’s too small, it doesn't work. So one of those ‘looks great on the Taobao,
but ends up being useless in real life’.OF: Oh, that's great. That's the first time
someone's brought in their worst object. Iappreciate that. You've elevated the question
(27:42):
now. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?SW: Let me send it to you.
OF (27:47):
Oh, here it is. Can you explain what's going on here?
SW (27:51):
For me, this one sums up what I experience every day. You know, in the West, we have
this image of the hamster in the hamster wheel.You know, running and running and running
on the wheel, but going nowhere. But herein China, I feel that it's always up, up.
You're always going somewhere better, morechallenging, at a pace that accelerates. Up
(28:14):
or out. There's no going nowhere or no standingstill, here in China.
OF (28:19):
Mmm. What’s your go-to song to sing at KTV?
SW (28:23):
I do have a song. It's from an older Chinese rock singer called 许巍 [Xǔ Wēi]. It's
called The Blue Lotus. And I like it, it’svery interesting. The lyrics are quite easy.
And the tonality, there’s no real ups anddowns, very Zen. So for me, very easy to sing,
(28:43):
or easier to sing.OF: OK. And finally, what other China-related
media or sources of information do you relyon?
China Daily. And some of my friends, or some acquaintances, they find this very really
strange. But I think the business sectionof the China Daily, there is not a day when
(29:04):
I don't learn something, a statistic, a number,an insight, it's really interesting.
OF (29:12):
Thank you so much, Stéphane. SW
always a pleasure.OF: Well, the final thing before you leave
is (29:20):
who, out of everyone you know in China, should I interview in the next season of Mosaic
of China?SW: Since you mentioned extending the reach
outside of Shanghai and more towards Beijing,I thought of one gentleman. His name is Jim,
Jim Spear. He is a fabulous person, you willlove him. He was in the wine business before
(29:46):
this was a business. He'll explain to youhis eco tourism project that he's been so
successful at these days, pioneering it beforeecotourism was a thing in China. So enjoy
your discussions with Jim.OF: Thank you so much, Stéphane, I can't
wait to meet Jim. And thank you once againfor your time today.
SW (30:08):
My pleasure. Many thanks, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: And there we have it, a great start to
Season 2. Thanks again to Stéphane for histime. If you want to follow the English - or
indeed all the Chinese - from this episode,then head to the Transcripts link on Stéphane’s
page at mosaicofchina.com. And while you’rethere, you can also click the link to subscribe
(30:30):
to the PREMIUM version, here are a few clipsfrom today’s episode…
[Clip 1]SW: So in a way China invented crypto-currency
decades ago.[Clip 2]
We were one of the very first companies not to start with a joint venture.
[Clip 3]SW (With a strong French accent): I don't
know what you mean, Mr. Oscar.[Clip 4]
We don't know who that famous Chinese consumer is. There is no Chinese consumer.
(30:54):
[Clip 5]OF: Oh dear, you're making me feel like a
bit of an egotist.[End of Audio Clips]
OF (31:00):
You’re only going to keep hearing more of these clips as the Season progresses, so
I hope they convince you to subscribe soonerrather than later! And then there are the
extra images that I’ve posted on socialmedia, which this week include: Stéphane
and his object, the 一角 [Yījiǎo] banknotethat’s equivalent to one tenth of a Chinese
元 [Yuán]; his favourite WeChat sticker,the one which he describes as the equivalent
(31:23):
of the hamster wheel in China; some nice photosthat Stéphane shared with me from his life
at L’Oréal, including one with the famousKan Yuesai, whose brand ‘Yuesai’ was bought
by L’Oréal back in 2004; and many more.Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork
by Denny Newell. Stick around for a shortenedversion of my catch-up interview with Sanford
(31:45):
Browne from Season 01, and I’ll see youagain next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Well, tell me, where do I find you now?
Sanford Browne (32:03):
So you find me now in Tokyo. New role, I am now responsible for all of
Asia for L’Oréal Research and Innovation,based here in Tokyo.
OF (32:16):
And you moved to Japan shortly after our recording. So you've been there now for over
a year by now, right?SB: Yes, that's right.
And so what has been your COVID story? SB
that everyone has been healthy, from a familystandpoint, and from a work standpoint. You
(32:40):
know, a lot of the things that make Tokyomagical involve the after-work going for dinner,
having a beer. All of those little izakayas- little small places - are not always the
places where you should go in terms of COVIDsafety. They’re very close, people are talking
without the masks, they’re drinking whatever.So you haven't been able to experience all
(33:03):
of what Japan has to offer in that context.And also some restrictions about travel, that
I couldn't leave and return, so that leftme not being able to see my family. And then
my family still can't come in. So that's alittle disheartening, but I'm hopeful that
not too long in the future, we'll be ableto get through that.
(33:24):
Oh, good. And you and I still communicate on WeChat. But are you now doing other things?
Are you on LINE, for example?SB: I have LINE and WhatsApp. But it's like
going back to the 1920s. It just… it's sobackwards. I feel the only thing I really
use is WeChat. And then when I have to communicatewith somebody on some other social network,
(33:47):
I use that. So that's still to me the goldstandard, and the other ones are very far
way away.OF: Well, look, thank you Sanford. It's very
nice to have this excuse to catch up withyou, and for you to continue being part of,
you know, the Mosaic family. Let’s definitelykeep in touch.
SB (34:03):
Great Oscar, thanks for reaching out, and it's good to connect with more people.
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