October 7, 2019 • 25 mins
This week’s episode is with Noah Sheldon, who has been making photos and films of workers in China over the last decade or so. We discuss some of the factory conditions that aren’t covered in much of the world’s reporting on the issue. We talk about the condition of the average migrant worker in China. And we focus in on the lives of one or two people that Noah has encountered as part of his work. To see some of the work mentioned in our conversation, see www.noahsheldon.com. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:40 - Part 1 17:15 - Part 2 23:23 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]NS: For me,
(00:02):
he was a proxy for Trump. I mean, all thesefilms are like proxies for someone else, right?
OF (00:06):
Ah yeah. NS
he was like this perfect kind of Trumpian figure.It's so interesting to see the Chinese version
of Trump.OF: Yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So in last week's episode with Vy, we discussedthat the population of Shanghai was the same
(00:27):
as the entire population of Australia. Well infact, as my friend Alston in Chengdu pointed out,
this comparison was based around the number ofpeople who have the official residency - or the 户口
[hùkǒu] - in Shanghai. So let me be clearer, thepopulation of Australia is estimated at around 25
million, the population of Shanghai that have the户口 [hùkǒu] is around 24 million. But in terms of
(00:49):
the total population of Shanghai, which includespeople without the official residency, it's
anyone's guess. By some estimates it could be asmuch as 35 million people. If you're interested in
learning more, just search for ‘The Hukou System,’and you can find out more about it online.
The reason I mention this in particular aheadof today's episode, is because we talk a lot
(01:11):
about migrant workers in this conversation.This week, I'm talking with Noah Sheldon,
who has been making photos and films of workersin China over the last decade or so. We discuss
some of the factory conditions that aren'tcovered in much of the world's reporting on
the issue. And we focus in on the lives ofone or two examples of the people Noah has
encountered as part of his work. I first metNoah at the leaving party of a friend of mine
(01:34):
who worked in supply chain. And Noah was therebecause he was an official photographer for
this company. I was curious to understand whatthat meant, and what kind of photos he took,
and this is what ultimately led to the today'sepisode. The company in question is a big fan
of the nondisclosure agreement - and you'llhear Noah mention ‘NDA,’ the acronym for this,
in our conversation - and it's the same reasonwhy you won't hear him mention the name of the
(01:57):
company itself. The other two useful thingsto know is that the word 老板 [lǎobǎn] simply
means ‘boss,’ and the word 差不多 [chàbùduō]means ‘more or less’ or ‘not far off’.
And one more thing, I've purposefully editeddown our conversation a little shorter than
other episodes in this series. This isbecause I want you to have no excuse to
spend four minutes watching one ofthe short films that Noah mentions
(02:19):
in our chat. So when you hear us startto talk about this, pause the podcast,
go to noahsheldon.com. Find a series called ‘Workis’ and scroll down to find the film in question,
you can't miss it. And I'm not exaggerating,it’s only four minutes long; it will give an
extra context to this conversation;and it's a beautiful piece of work.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Noah Sheldon, photographer
(02:44):
and filmmaker. And welcome to Mosaic of China.NS: Thank you.
So what object have you brought today? NS
of what my relationship to China has been. Itgets me out of house, it gives me something
to do. The first time I came to China was in2003. I was working on an annual report for
(03:09):
United Technologies, this huge conglomerate.The subway system in Shanghai was brand new,
and I was here to photograph the escalatorsand elevators for Otis, which United owns.
Right. NS
doing that. And it was my first time in Shanghai.The Bund was very different, a lot of things were
(03:31):
very different. I took a lot of pictures out ofmy hotel room. Then when we moved to Shanghai
in 2010, nothing was the same. It was amazing. Itwas like there were maybe two buildings standing,
from the panorama from outside my window, stillstanding. We only lived a block away from the
(03:53):
hotel I stayed at in 2003, which was very funny.OF: And do they still have the Otis
escalators in the metro?NS: They do, they do. Yeah,
so I was there for that. Also some kind ofhydraulic pump factory, which I loved. That
was a small factory - that was in 2003, same trip- it was like some company they owned. And they
(04:16):
had a little DJ booth, and they had a system wherethey had a schedule of what worker got to choose
the music that they play in this factory.OF: You've probably gone to quite
a few factories in your time.NS: Yes, yeah. So one of the things
that brought me here - even before I lived here- was, I do a lot of work with a large technology
(04:39):
company. And for them, I was involved for a numberof years in terms of their responsibility towards
their workers, and their supply chain, and theenvironment. And so through that I probably
visited over 100 factories. Tiny little suppliers,to huge, huge factories with hundreds of thousands
(05:02):
of workers, the size of cities. And yeah, it'sbeen fascinating, it's been a really interesting
glimpse into a different side of China than a lotof people see. And one of the things I've gotten
to do is, I've gotten to do a lot of interviewswith workers, trying to figure out how they can
(05:23):
make things better in those situations. We havethis way of projecting - when reading a story
about a factory in China - that our consumptionmakes these people slaves, or something like that.
And that’s a preconceived idea before we even go to the factory, right?
NS (05:42):
I think so. I think so, yeah. And then, when you go to a factory, there’s so many interesting
factors, that really don't get covered in thepress. The biggest thing I would say, is the
whole kind of idea of being a migrant worker inyour own country. And this idea that we have,
(06:03):
you know, in China there’s 300 million or 400million - whatever the crazy number that I keep
hearing is - migrant workers in their own country.And that's kind of given as background in all our
stories. But when you actually think about whatthat means, it's a really interesting condition.
And when you talk to workers, that tends tobe one of the big ones. It's either young
(06:29):
workers, where it's exciting to be away from theirhome, their farm or whatever; and older ones who
have families and have kids, and that tends to besomething that's very hard for them. So, you don't
realise how temporary these jobs tend to be for alot of workers. And the reporting never reflects
(06:51):
that. We think of people having these as lifelongcareers, and that tends to not be the case.
OF (06:57):
Right. NS
it's like a first job. You know, the workerthat’s going to factories has changed so much,
obviously. Even 10 years ago, there werea lot of farm workers who were happy to be
inside. And they would work seasonally, whenthere was no work to be done on the farm,
(07:17):
stuff like that. And now young people obviouslyexpect a lot more. And for them, it's like “Well,
I'm working in a factory, but what I ultimatelywant to do is I want to open up a hair salon back
in my village,” or something like that. And that'sbeen really interesting to see that shift. It's
(07:40):
like a university for kids who will never get togo to university, right? Like the entire factory,
hundreds of thousands of people, are 18 to 25.And, some of them, it's very funny, once the sun
goes down, there’s this park benches everywhere,you see all these young couples holding hands.
(08:01):
It's very sweet. It's interesting, yeah.OF: In all of your experience with workers,
are there any specific stories that that jump out?Any particular people that stay in your memory?
NS (08:10):
Just a couple years ago, I started a series of films, based on the company I do a lot of work
for. I'm bound by a lot of NDAs. So I thought itwould be so great to be able to give context to
these stories, without breaking those NDAs.So I found almost like proxy stories. So if
(08:37):
the issue is being a migrant worker, being awayfrom your children, I thought it'd be so great
to find someone who has a similar situation.And that not hard in China, right? So I did a
film about a woman who’s a styrofoam box recycler.So much of her life is living away from her kid.
(09:00):
And there’s this heartbreaking part of the moviewhere she talks about, she hasn't been home. The
longest she went without going home is threeyears. And when she went back, her kid didn't
recognise her, wouldn’t call her “mom”. And Ithink that condition of being, you know… I went
to her village. I tried to get her to come withme, but she didn't want to go, she didn’t want to
(09:24):
skip work. And so I went, and it's only… it’s noteven a 3-hour train trip. It was really… I think
it's shorter. And so yeah, it's heartbreakingto kind of imagine that condition, where you're
so close to home, but you can't go there.OF: And did you show her the final video?
(09:46):
Yeah, I did. Like, she still couldn’t figure out why I made a film about her. She
was like “Yeah, this is just normal”.OF: And so was that film released in
China? Like, what was the the feedback?NS: It's mostly been out of China. It's been in a
bunch of film festivals, and had a really niceresponse from people. But I've also gotten a nice
(10:10):
response here. Yeah, people are pretty amazed tosee her story. And what most Chinese tell me is,
they see these people all the time, and theywould never think to ask them that story.
OF (10:20):
Right. NS
don't know if you know the work of Studs Terkel?OF: No.
NS (10:27):
Studs Terkel was a great Chicago journalist. He did a great series of interviews on work, where
he just asked normal people about their job. Youknow, it's something that we do most of our time,
and yet we don’t talk about it that much.OF: I think you can look at people,
(10:49):
you can objectify them. But assoon as you get their story,
then obviously you can empathise with them, right?NS: Right, right. That's key, you’re right.
OF (10:57):
There was another work project that I know that you were involved
in. And that was that documentary youdid about the hairdressing school, right?
NS (11:05):
Yeah. Yeah. So I've been really interested in a range of jobs, and a range of personalities,
right? So I've spent time with theguys who scalp mooncake tickets,
the guy who owns a fireworks factory, a Sichuanopera singer. There's a lot. A Taobao model,
(11:29):
like a fast fashion e-commerce model, she wasgreat. Yeah, quite a few different topics. And
I have this list of 100 occupations or locationsI would love to film. And one of them has always
been this figure of a 老板 [lǎobǎn], like thisbig boss guy. And there's this incredible hair
(11:54):
school called 文峰 [Wénfēng], where this guyhas kind of modelled himself as this cult
of personality. And he runs this kind of verymilitaristic school of hairdressing, and makeup,
and different beautician processes. And so Iwas fascinated by this guy, walked past his
(12:21):
salon every day. He has salons all over China.And he trains thousands of hairdressers. For me,
he was a proxy for Trump. I mean, all thesefilms are like proxies for someone else, right?
OF (12:37):
Ah yeah. NS
like this perfect kind of Trumpian figure. It's sointeresting to see the Chinese version of Trump.
Yes. Because he created his own reality in that place. And obviously,
you know, you can look at it as an outsider andgo “What? How does that work?” But as an insider,
of course, you ‘drink the Kool-Aid’.NS: Right. Exactly, exactly. And I don't
(13:01):
know. I mean, some of the employees we talked toare definitely drinking the Kool-Aid. They fully
believe his crazy claims. Others, we get thesense that they're just in it for the way they
can get commissions.OF: Right.
NS (13:19):
It was interesting. It really is a huge community, so there's definitely
a spectrum in that community.OF: Yeah. And it looks like then,
you're moving away from photography, andmore towards filmmaking. Is that true?
I do a fair share. And the world seems to be moving more towards motion, in general. I think
(13:42):
with 5G internet, things are gonna change verydrastically. So I just want to bring it back
to the camera. So when I came to China, when wemoved here, we moved for my wife's work. And I
was doing quite a bit of work here, but I was alsodoing quite a bit of work everywhere. And I was
(14:05):
travelling to Europe a lot, I was travellingall over the place. And so when I got here,
I started a blog, like a photo-a-day blog. Mydaughter was 1 at the time. So I would kind
of wander around with her, but I would alwaysbring the camera, just as a way of interacting
(14:27):
with the world around me. I quickly printed somecards, like I had my friend write in Chinese,
like “I'm a photographer, I'd like to takeyour picture, can I take your picture?”
OF (14:39):
Nice. NS
and hand them the card. And my daughter was great.I'd bring my daughter, and they would see a baby,
and that was a great icebreaker. And I realisedthere wasn't a lot of kind of normal… You know,
when you Googled pictures of China at that time,you'd see pictures of pandas, or the Great Wall,
or something like that. And I really appreciatedthat interaction, I really appreciated making this
(15:07):
archive or someone. The thing that brought me tophotography in the first place was, when my mom
passed away, I was 15, and she had made theselittle family photo albums, crappy family photo
albums that she had thrown together. And when shepassed away, I couldn't really talk to people.
(15:29):
She’d been sick for a while, and passed away. Andso I would spend a lot of time looking through
these family photo albums. And I was just amazedat what these photos had become overnight. You
know, they went from being these crappy snapshots,to being these really weighty documents. And for
me, that transformation was just fascinating.It was kind of scary, but also really,
(15:55):
incredibly powerful. And the idea of documentingeverything became really comfortable to me. And so
I started doing that, I started getting more andmore interested in photography. And so for me,
so much of what photography and filmmaking is,is documenting something that won't be here,
(16:17):
right? So when I got here, I realised no-one wastelling those stories, I couldn't find them. And I
think even, the thing that would happen to me mostoften - especially when I first got here, when I
was really just taking pictures all the time,of everything - was old people, young people,
(16:38):
all kinds of people would walk up to me and say“Why are you taking a picture of this building?
Go take a picture of that new building”. You know,“This buildings is old, it's gonna be torn down,
it’s blah blah blah”. And I thought that wasso interesting, a place without nostalgia.
And I think that's a big part of China, isthat change has been so rapid. The Cultural
(17:01):
Revolution did so much to kind of erase so much.OF: Well, thanks so much. We covered a lot of
ground there. Really appreciatethat. And now on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, so the first question is,
what is your favourite China-related fact?NS: Let's see, so according to Wikipedia - which
(17:24):
I just looked up - there was 287 millionrural migrant workers in China in 2017.
Wow. NS
workers in your own country. I think that's areally interesting kind of policy, because of
the residency permits and stuff like that.OF: Yeah because there could be equivalents
in other countries, but they don'ttrack it in the same way, right?
NS (17:46):
You know, this is a way of controlling things like urban slums and stuff, right? They
keep people tied to the countryside. Which isa really interesting policy. And I have to say,
it’s managed growth in an interesting way.There's obviously negative fallout from it,
but yeah, it's fascinating.OF: Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?NS: I have a least favourite, 差不多 [chàbùduō].
OF (18:09):
Ah, 差不多 [chàbùduō]? NS
Really? Oh that's actually one of my favourites.
NS (18:16):
In terms of working and stuff, and if you're really going for excellence, it's this really
dangerous kind of idea of ’It's good enough’.OF: Right. Yes, I mean, there is a time
for 差不多 [chàbùduō] and there’sa time for “No, get it right”.
Right. OF
there’s more perfectionism than a 差不多 [chàbùduō].NS: Yeah. But you're right, you’re right. There is
(18:39):
a very positive side of it. It's just… yeah.OF: When you don't want to hear it, it’s the
last thing you wanna hear.NS: Exactly, exactly.
OF (18:45):
What's your favourite destination within China?
NS (18:49):
You know, I've been to the Tibetan autonomous area, and 四川 [Sìchuān], I think that's amazing,
rural 四川 [Sìchuān] is amazing. I loveShanghai, Shanghai is such a beautiful,
amazing city. But I always love gettingout of Shanghai as well, because it's like…
OF (19:08):
Yeah. NS
You go an hour outside of Shanghai, and all of asudden you're in this very different place. Yeah.
Well, yeah. Rural 四川 [Sìchuān] is on my list, so thank you. If you left China, what would you
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?NS: I love the public life here. I love seeing
(19:30):
things on the street, I love seeing life livedout on the on the street. I live in a lane house,
I love hearing the neighbours. When we go visit mydad in Chicago, my daughters instantly are kind of
freaked out about how quiet it is there. Yeah,I love the optimism here. I love seeing kind of,
you know, you have this huge percentageof the population - I think at this point,
(19:55):
probably everyone - who have only seen progress,right? And that's amazing. It's very different
than when you go back to the U.S. or somewhereelse, where people are much more sceptical.
And is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
NS (20:10):
Yeah, how things can be 差不多 [chàbùduō] and that’s OK. Sorry.
OF (20:16):
Oh, 差不多 [chàbùduō] again. NS
I can't get over that. Like to me, that’s justso… That sounds so bad, because obviously people
are doing amazing things here, and peoplestrive. But I do think it's kind of like,
I don't know, it holds a lot of things back.OF: Right. What is your favourite place,
(20:36):
to eat or to drink or generally tohang out in Shanghai? Or elsewhere?
NS (20:41):
There's a restaurant we love. What is the name in Chinese? The English name is ‘In & Out’. It's
a horrible translation.OF: In-N-Out Burger?
No, no. ‘In & Out’, it’s a 云南 [Yúnnán] restaurant.
OF (20:53):
Oh right. NS
in 湖滨道 [Húbīndào] mall. And it's so excellent.OF: I know it, it's on the third floor, yes.
NS (21:03):
Exactly. I think the food there is so great. But they don't have a
lot of alcohol. So that's kind of a problem.OF: OK. What's your favourite WeChat? sticker?
Mmm. There's one that I've been very fond of lately, which is a
girl on a bicycle chasing a motorcycle.OF: And in what context do you use that,
(21:24):
like when you're running late? Or…NS: More like doing something
impossible. Like ‘we can do it’. I'malso very fond of the the boy with the
extremely large comb, slowly combing his hair.OF: Yes. That's a very good one. Actually,
if you look at both those stickers, there'sno 差不多 [chàbùduō] about either of them.
(21:45):
No. OF
They're fully fully… OF
My favourite KTV song is, if you want get everyone going, you can always do Tiny Dancer.
OF (21:58):
Very good. NS
That’s a classic. NS
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you most rely on?
NS (22:09):
I find, you know, people like Bill Bishop - the old Sinocism blog - I find them pretty
amazing. A book I want to reference that I'mobsessed with is called The Corpse Walker,
by 廖亦武 [Liào Yìwǔ]. And that's an amazing book,
(22:30):
he kind of is the Studs Terkel of China.OF: Well, thank you so much for your time Noah,
it was fascinating. And before you leave tellme, if there was one person who you'd recommend
that I should interview next, who would it be?NS: There are people doing really interesting
things here. I think the people at the Rong DesignLibrary are fascinating. They're doing such an
(22:52):
important thing in creating such an incrediblearchive, Jovana and her husband Lei. They have
created this incredible archive of Chinese design,both traditional and folklore, and more modern
(23:12):
stuff. And it's absolutely phenomenal.OF: Awesome, I look forward to meeting
Jovana. Thanks so much, Noah.NS: Great, thank you. That was fun.
[Outro]OF: So that
was the smooth and relaxing voice of NoahSheldon. I probably should have warned you
about that at the beginning of the recording.This is probably an episode for listening to
(23:34):
when relaxing on a sofa, by a crackling fire.I take no responsibility if you were listening
to it while driving late at night on a darkcountry road, or operating heavy machinery.
Once again, to see Noah's work, go tonoahsheldon.com, and look under the
heading ‘Work is’. You'll also be able to seedetails on his site about where you can see the
film about the boss - the 老板 [lǎobǎn] - ofthat chain of beauty schools. The title of
(23:58):
that film is ‘The School of Beauty and LongLife’. Since this interview was recorded,
actually Netflix has released a greatdocumentary movie called American Factory,
where you can see another Chinese 老板[lǎobǎn], this time of a glass company,
and it focuses on what happens when a similarkind of traditional Chinese factory culture gets
exported to suburban Ohio. The film does focus onthe predictable clash of cultures, but I thought
(24:25):
it was quite an even-handed attempt at showingthe pros and cons of both working cultures.
As for connections between Noah'sepisode and other guests in this series,
Noah was the second person to mention BillBishop's ‘Sinocism’ as one of his favourite
sources of information about China. The otherperson was Eric Olander back in Episode 03,
(24:46):
and I definitely also recommend you get on hismailing list. Thanks very much to everyone who
is following the podcast on social media, Ireally appreciate all of your contributions.
I forgot to take a selfie with Noah at thistime, but there are still lots of interesting
images from this week's episode. There'sNoah with his object, his camera of course;
the phrase 差不多 [chàbùduō], meaning ‘more orless’ or 'not far off’ that terrorises Noah's
(25:11):
life; his favourite WeChat stickers; hisfavourite 云南 [Yúnnán] restaurant In & Out,
and the Chinese for that is 一坐一忘 [Yīzuò Yīwàng];some photos depicting the 文峰 [Wénfēng] hair salon;
and the book he mentioned, The CorpseWalker. There's even a photo of Noah's
inspiration Studs Terkel, which includes hisname so you can see how on earth it's spelt.
(25:34):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; editingby Milo de Prieto; artwork by Denny Newell;
and China technical support fromAlston Gong. See you next week.
[Trailer]NS: For me,
(00:02):
he was a proxy for Trump. I mean, all thesefilms are like proxies for someone else, right?
OF (00:06):
Ah yeah. NS
he was like this perfect kind of Trumpian figure.It's so interesting to see the Chinese version
of Trump.OF: Yes.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So in last week's episode with Vy, we discussedthat the population of Shanghai was the same
(00:27):
as the entire population of Australia. Well infact, as my friend Alston in Chengdu pointed out,
this comparison was based around the number ofpeople who have the official residency - or the 户口
[hùkǒu] - in Shanghai. So let me be clearer, thepopulation of Australia is estimated at around 25
million, the population of Shanghai that have the户口 [hùkǒu] is around 24 million. But in terms of
(00:49):
the total population of Shanghai, which includespeople without the official residency, it's
anyone's guess. By some estimates it could be asmuch as 35 million people. If you're interested in
learning more, just search for ‘The Hukou System,’and you can find out more about it online.
The reason I mention this in particular aheadof today's episode, is because we talk a lot
(01:11):
about migrant workers in this conversation.This week, I'm talking with Noah Sheldon,
who has been making photos and films of workersin China over the last decade or so. We discuss
some of the factory conditions that aren'tcovered in much of the world's reporting on
the issue. And we focus in on the lives ofone or two examples of the people Noah has
encountered as part of his work. I first metNoah at the leaving party of a friend of mine
(01:34):
who worked in supply chain. And Noah was therebecause he was an official photographer for
this company. I was curious to understand whatthat meant, and what kind of photos he took,
and this is what ultimately led to the today'sepisode. The company in question is a big fan
of the nondisclosure agreement - and you'llhear Noah mention ‘NDA,’ the acronym for this,
in our conversation - and it's the same reasonwhy you won't hear him mention the name of the
(01:57):
company itself. The other two useful thingsto know is that the word 老板 [lǎobǎn] simply
means ‘boss,’ and the word 差不多 [chàbùduō]means ‘more or less’ or ‘not far off’.
And one more thing, I've purposefully editeddown our conversation a little shorter than
other episodes in this series. This isbecause I want you to have no excuse to
spend four minutes watching one ofthe short films that Noah mentions
(02:19):
in our chat. So when you hear us startto talk about this, pause the podcast,
go to noahsheldon.com. Find a series called ‘Workis’ and scroll down to find the film in question,
you can't miss it. And I'm not exaggerating,it’s only four minutes long; it will give an
extra context to this conversation;and it's a beautiful piece of work.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Noah Sheldon, photographer
(02:44):
and filmmaker. And welcome to Mosaic of China.NS: Thank you.
So what object have you brought today? NS
of what my relationship to China has been. Itgets me out of house, it gives me something
to do. The first time I came to China was in2003. I was working on an annual report for
(03:09):
United Technologies, this huge conglomerate.The subway system in Shanghai was brand new,
and I was here to photograph the escalatorsand elevators for Otis, which United owns.
Right. NS
doing that. And it was my first time in Shanghai.The Bund was very different, a lot of things were
(03:31):
very different. I took a lot of pictures out ofmy hotel room. Then when we moved to Shanghai
in 2010, nothing was the same. It was amazing. Itwas like there were maybe two buildings standing,
from the panorama from outside my window, stillstanding. We only lived a block away from the
(03:53):
hotel I stayed at in 2003, which was very funny.OF: And do they still have the Otis
escalators in the metro?NS: They do, they do. Yeah,
so I was there for that. Also some kind ofhydraulic pump factory, which I loved. That
was a small factory - that was in 2003, same trip- it was like some company they owned. And they
(04:16):
had a little DJ booth, and they had a system wherethey had a schedule of what worker got to choose
the music that they play in this factory.OF: You've probably gone to quite
a few factories in your time.NS: Yes, yeah. So one of the things
that brought me here - even before I lived here- was, I do a lot of work with a large technology
(04:39):
company. And for them, I was involved for a numberof years in terms of their responsibility towards
their workers, and their supply chain, and theenvironment. And so through that I probably
visited over 100 factories. Tiny little suppliers,to huge, huge factories with hundreds of thousands
(05:02):
of workers, the size of cities. And yeah, it'sbeen fascinating, it's been a really interesting
glimpse into a different side of China than a lotof people see. And one of the things I've gotten
to do is, I've gotten to do a lot of interviewswith workers, trying to figure out how they can
(05:23):
make things better in those situations. We havethis way of projecting - when reading a story
about a factory in China - that our consumptionmakes these people slaves, or something like that.
And that’s a preconceived idea before we even go to the factory, right?
NS (05:42):
I think so. I think so, yeah. And then, when you go to a factory, there’s so many interesting
factors, that really don't get covered in thepress. The biggest thing I would say, is the
whole kind of idea of being a migrant worker inyour own country. And this idea that we have,
(06:03):
you know, in China there’s 300 million or 400million - whatever the crazy number that I keep
hearing is - migrant workers in their own country.And that's kind of given as background in all our
stories. But when you actually think about whatthat means, it's a really interesting condition.
And when you talk to workers, that tends tobe one of the big ones. It's either young
(06:29):
workers, where it's exciting to be away from theirhome, their farm or whatever; and older ones who
have families and have kids, and that tends to besomething that's very hard for them. So, you don't
realise how temporary these jobs tend to be for alot of workers. And the reporting never reflects
(06:51):
that. We think of people having these as lifelongcareers, and that tends to not be the case.
OF (06:57):
Right. NS
it's like a first job. You know, the workerthat’s going to factories has changed so much,
obviously. Even 10 years ago, there werea lot of farm workers who were happy to be
inside. And they would work seasonally, whenthere was no work to be done on the farm,
(07:17):
stuff like that. And now young people obviouslyexpect a lot more. And for them, it's like “Well,
I'm working in a factory, but what I ultimatelywant to do is I want to open up a hair salon back
in my village,” or something like that. And that'sbeen really interesting to see that shift. It's
(07:40):
like a university for kids who will never get togo to university, right? Like the entire factory,
hundreds of thousands of people, are 18 to 25.And, some of them, it's very funny, once the sun
goes down, there’s this park benches everywhere,you see all these young couples holding hands.
(08:01):
It's very sweet. It's interesting, yeah.OF: In all of your experience with workers,
are there any specific stories that that jump out?Any particular people that stay in your memory?
NS (08:10):
Just a couple years ago, I started a series of films, based on the company I do a lot of work
for. I'm bound by a lot of NDAs. So I thought itwould be so great to be able to give context to
these stories, without breaking those NDAs.So I found almost like proxy stories. So if
(08:37):
the issue is being a migrant worker, being awayfrom your children, I thought it'd be so great
to find someone who has a similar situation.And that not hard in China, right? So I did a
film about a woman who’s a styrofoam box recycler.So much of her life is living away from her kid.
(09:00):
And there’s this heartbreaking part of the moviewhere she talks about, she hasn't been home. The
longest she went without going home is threeyears. And when she went back, her kid didn't
recognise her, wouldn’t call her “mom”. And Ithink that condition of being, you know… I went
to her village. I tried to get her to come withme, but she didn't want to go, she didn’t want to
(09:24):
skip work. And so I went, and it's only… it’s noteven a 3-hour train trip. It was really… I think
it's shorter. And so yeah, it's heartbreakingto kind of imagine that condition, where you're
so close to home, but you can't go there.OF: And did you show her the final video?
(09:46):
Yeah, I did. Like, she still couldn’t figure out why I made a film about her. She
was like “Yeah, this is just normal”.OF: And so was that film released in
China? Like, what was the the feedback?NS: It's mostly been out of China. It's been in a
bunch of film festivals, and had a really niceresponse from people. But I've also gotten a nice
(10:10):
response here. Yeah, people are pretty amazed tosee her story. And what most Chinese tell me is,
they see these people all the time, and theywould never think to ask them that story.
OF (10:20):
Right. NS
don't know if you know the work of Studs Terkel?OF: No.
NS (10:27):
Studs Terkel was a great Chicago journalist. He did a great series of interviews on work, where
he just asked normal people about their job. Youknow, it's something that we do most of our time,
and yet we don’t talk about it that much.OF: I think you can look at people,
(10:49):
you can objectify them. But assoon as you get their story,
then obviously you can empathise with them, right?NS: Right, right. That's key, you’re right.
OF (10:57):
There was another work project that I know that you were involved
in. And that was that documentary youdid about the hairdressing school, right?
NS (11:05):
Yeah. Yeah. So I've been really interested in a range of jobs, and a range of personalities,
right? So I've spent time with theguys who scalp mooncake tickets,
the guy who owns a fireworks factory, a Sichuanopera singer. There's a lot. A Taobao model,
(11:29):
like a fast fashion e-commerce model, she wasgreat. Yeah, quite a few different topics. And
I have this list of 100 occupations or locationsI would love to film. And one of them has always
been this figure of a 老板 [lǎobǎn], like thisbig boss guy. And there's this incredible hair
(11:54):
school called 文峰 [Wénfēng], where this guyhas kind of modelled himself as this cult
of personality. And he runs this kind of verymilitaristic school of hairdressing, and makeup,
and different beautician processes. And so Iwas fascinated by this guy, walked past his
(12:21):
salon every day. He has salons all over China.And he trains thousands of hairdressers. For me,
he was a proxy for Trump. I mean, all thesefilms are like proxies for someone else, right?
OF (12:37):
Ah yeah. NS
like this perfect kind of Trumpian figure. It's sointeresting to see the Chinese version of Trump.
Yes. Because he created his own reality in that place. And obviously,
you know, you can look at it as an outsider andgo “What? How does that work?” But as an insider,
of course, you ‘drink the Kool-Aid’.NS: Right. Exactly, exactly. And I don't
(13:01):
know. I mean, some of the employees we talked toare definitely drinking the Kool-Aid. They fully
believe his crazy claims. Others, we get thesense that they're just in it for the way they
can get commissions.OF: Right.
NS (13:19):
It was interesting. It really is a huge community, so there's definitely
a spectrum in that community.OF: Yeah. And it looks like then,
you're moving away from photography, andmore towards filmmaking. Is that true?
I do a fair share. And the world seems to be moving more towards motion, in general. I think
(13:42):
with 5G internet, things are gonna change verydrastically. So I just want to bring it back
to the camera. So when I came to China, when wemoved here, we moved for my wife's work. And I
was doing quite a bit of work here, but I was alsodoing quite a bit of work everywhere. And I was
(14:05):
travelling to Europe a lot, I was travellingall over the place. And so when I got here,
I started a blog, like a photo-a-day blog. Mydaughter was 1 at the time. So I would kind
of wander around with her, but I would alwaysbring the camera, just as a way of interacting
(14:27):
with the world around me. I quickly printed somecards, like I had my friend write in Chinese,
like “I'm a photographer, I'd like to takeyour picture, can I take your picture?”
OF (14:39):
Nice. NS
and hand them the card. And my daughter was great.I'd bring my daughter, and they would see a baby,
and that was a great icebreaker. And I realisedthere wasn't a lot of kind of normal… You know,
when you Googled pictures of China at that time,you'd see pictures of pandas, or the Great Wall,
or something like that. And I really appreciatedthat interaction, I really appreciated making this
(15:07):
archive or someone. The thing that brought me tophotography in the first place was, when my mom
passed away, I was 15, and she had made theselittle family photo albums, crappy family photo
albums that she had thrown together. And when shepassed away, I couldn't really talk to people.
(15:29):
She’d been sick for a while, and passed away. Andso I would spend a lot of time looking through
these family photo albums. And I was just amazedat what these photos had become overnight. You
know, they went from being these crappy snapshots,to being these really weighty documents. And for
me, that transformation was just fascinating.It was kind of scary, but also really,
(15:55):
incredibly powerful. And the idea of documentingeverything became really comfortable to me. And so
I started doing that, I started getting more andmore interested in photography. And so for me,
so much of what photography and filmmaking is,is documenting something that won't be here,
(16:17):
right? So when I got here, I realised no-one wastelling those stories, I couldn't find them. And I
think even, the thing that would happen to me mostoften - especially when I first got here, when I
was really just taking pictures all the time,of everything - was old people, young people,
(16:38):
all kinds of people would walk up to me and say“Why are you taking a picture of this building?
Go take a picture of that new building”. You know,“This buildings is old, it's gonna be torn down,
it’s blah blah blah”. And I thought that wasso interesting, a place without nostalgia.
And I think that's a big part of China, isthat change has been so rapid. The Cultural
(17:01):
Revolution did so much to kind of erase so much.OF: Well, thanks so much. We covered a lot of
ground there. Really appreciatethat. And now on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: OK, so the first question is,
what is your favourite China-related fact?NS: Let's see, so according to Wikipedia - which
(17:24):
I just looked up - there was 287 millionrural migrant workers in China in 2017.
Wow. NS
workers in your own country. I think that's areally interesting kind of policy, because of
the residency permits and stuff like that.OF: Yeah because there could be equivalents
in other countries, but they don'ttrack it in the same way, right?
NS (17:46):
You know, this is a way of controlling things like urban slums and stuff, right? They
keep people tied to the countryside. Which isa really interesting policy. And I have to say,
it’s managed growth in an interesting way.There's obviously negative fallout from it,
but yeah, it's fascinating.OF: Do you have a
favourite word or phrase in Chinese?NS: I have a least favourite, 差不多 [chàbùduō].
OF (18:09):
Ah, 差不多 [chàbùduō]? NS
Really? Oh that's actually one of my favourites.
NS (18:16):
In terms of working and stuff, and if you're really going for excellence, it's this really
dangerous kind of idea of ’It's good enough’.OF: Right. Yes, I mean, there is a time
for 差不多 [chàbùduō] and there’sa time for “No, get it right”.
Right. OF
there’s more perfectionism than a 差不多 [chàbùduō].NS: Yeah. But you're right, you’re right. There is
(18:39):
a very positive side of it. It's just… yeah.OF: When you don't want to hear it, it’s the
last thing you wanna hear.NS: Exactly, exactly.
OF (18:45):
What's your favourite destination within China?
NS (18:49):
You know, I've been to the Tibetan autonomous area, and 四川 [Sìchuān], I think that's amazing,
rural 四川 [Sìchuān] is amazing. I loveShanghai, Shanghai is such a beautiful,
amazing city. But I always love gettingout of Shanghai as well, because it's like…
OF (19:08):
Yeah. NS
You go an hour outside of Shanghai, and all of asudden you're in this very different place. Yeah.
Well, yeah. Rural 四川 [Sìchuān] is on my list, so thank you. If you left China, what would you
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?NS: I love the public life here. I love seeing
(19:30):
things on the street, I love seeing life livedout on the on the street. I live in a lane house,
I love hearing the neighbours. When we go visit mydad in Chicago, my daughters instantly are kind of
freaked out about how quiet it is there. Yeah,I love the optimism here. I love seeing kind of,
you know, you have this huge percentageof the population - I think at this point,
(19:55):
probably everyone - who have only seen progress,right? And that's amazing. It's very different
than when you go back to the U.S. or somewhereelse, where people are much more sceptical.
And is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
NS (20:10):
Yeah, how things can be 差不多 [chàbùduō] and that’s OK. Sorry.
OF (20:16):
Oh, 差不多 [chàbùduō] again. NS
I can't get over that. Like to me, that’s justso… That sounds so bad, because obviously people
are doing amazing things here, and peoplestrive. But I do think it's kind of like,
I don't know, it holds a lot of things back.OF: Right. What is your favourite place,
(20:36):
to eat or to drink or generally tohang out in Shanghai? Or elsewhere?
NS (20:41):
There's a restaurant we love. What is the name in Chinese? The English name is ‘In & Out’. It's
a horrible translation.OF: In-N-Out Burger?
No, no. ‘In & Out’, it’s a 云南 [Yúnnán] restaurant.
OF (20:53):
Oh right. NS
in 湖滨道 [Húbīndào] mall. And it's so excellent.OF: I know it, it's on the third floor, yes.
NS (21:03):
Exactly. I think the food there is so great. But they don't have a
lot of alcohol. So that's kind of a problem.OF: OK. What's your favourite WeChat? sticker?
Mmm. There's one that I've been very fond of lately, which is a
girl on a bicycle chasing a motorcycle.OF: And in what context do you use that,
(21:24):
like when you're running late? Or…NS: More like doing something
impossible. Like ‘we can do it’. I'malso very fond of the the boy with the
extremely large comb, slowly combing his hair.OF: Yes. That's a very good one. Actually,
if you look at both those stickers, there'sno 差不多 [chàbùduō] about either of them.
(21:45):
No. OF
They're fully fully… OF
My favourite KTV song is, if you want get everyone going, you can always do Tiny Dancer.
OF (21:58):
Very good. NS
That’s a classic. NS
And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information do you most rely on?
NS (22:09):
I find, you know, people like Bill Bishop - the old Sinocism blog - I find them pretty
amazing. A book I want to reference that I'mobsessed with is called The Corpse Walker,
by 廖亦武 [Liào Yìwǔ]. And that's an amazing book,
(22:30):
he kind of is the Studs Terkel of China.OF: Well, thank you so much for your time Noah,
it was fascinating. And before you leave tellme, if there was one person who you'd recommend
that I should interview next, who would it be?NS: There are people doing really interesting
things here. I think the people at the Rong DesignLibrary are fascinating. They're doing such an
(22:52):
important thing in creating such an incrediblearchive, Jovana and her husband Lei. They have
created this incredible archive of Chinese design,both traditional and folklore, and more modern
(23:12):
stuff. And it's absolutely phenomenal.OF: Awesome, I look forward to meeting
Jovana. Thanks so much, Noah.NS: Great, thank you. That was fun.
[Outro]OF: So that
was the smooth and relaxing voice of NoahSheldon. I probably should have warned you
about that at the beginning of the recording.This is probably an episode for listening to
(23:34):
when relaxing on a sofa, by a crackling fire.I take no responsibility if you were listening
to it while driving late at night on a darkcountry road, or operating heavy machinery.
Once again, to see Noah's work, go tonoahsheldon.com, and look under the
heading ‘Work is’. You'll also be able to seedetails on his site about where you can see the
film about the boss - the 老板 [lǎobǎn] - ofthat chain of beauty schools. The title of
(23:58):
that film is ‘The School of Beauty and LongLife’. Since this interview was recorded,
actually Netflix has released a greatdocumentary movie called American Factory,
where you can see another Chinese 老板[lǎobǎn], this time of a glass company,
and it focuses on what happens when a similarkind of traditional Chinese factory culture gets
exported to suburban Ohio. The film does focus onthe predictable clash of cultures, but I thought
(24:25):
it was quite an even-handed attempt at showingthe pros and cons of both working cultures.
As for connections between Noah'sepisode and other guests in this series,
Noah was the second person to mention BillBishop's ‘Sinocism’ as one of his favourite
sources of information about China. The otherperson was Eric Olander back in Episode 03,
(24:46):
and I definitely also recommend you get on hismailing list. Thanks very much to everyone who
is following the podcast on social media, Ireally appreciate all of your contributions.
I forgot to take a selfie with Noah at thistime, but there are still lots of interesting
images from this week's episode. There'sNoah with his object, his camera of course;
the phrase 差不多 [chàbùduō], meaning ‘more orless’ or 'not far off’ that terrorises Noah's
(25:11):
life; his favourite WeChat stickers; hisfavourite 云南 [Yúnnán] restaurant In & Out,
and the Chinese for that is 一坐一忘 [Yīzuò Yīwàng];some photos depicting the 文峰 [Wénfēng] hair salon;
and the book he mentioned, The CorpseWalker. There's even a photo of Noah's
inspiration Studs Terkel, which includes hisname so you can see how on earth it's spelt.
(25:34):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs; editingby Milo de Prieto; artwork by Denny Newell;
and China technical support fromAlston Gong. See you next week.
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