June 28, 2021 • 48 mins
Cait Flanders is back. Previously my guest on episode 63 in March of 2018, she is the author of Wall Street Journal bestseller, THE YEAR OF LESS. Described by Vogue magazine as “a fascinating look into a living experiment that we can all learn from,” it has been translated into 10 languages, and sold more than 190,000 copies.
Her new book, ADVENTURES IN OPTING OUT, is a field guide to opting out of expectations, changing paths, and leading a more intentional life.
Cait joins me again to talk about how her life has changed since writing her first best selling book, and explains what her newest book is all about.
Instagram: @caitflanders
Website: CaitFlanders.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Preet Banerjee (00:00):
You just it just completely left your mind.
(00:03):
You've never thought about slapchops ever again.
Cait Flanders (00:05):
Never again. You know, I'm a woman who
I can feel it pretty quickly ifI'm interested or not.
Preet Banerjee (00:22):
Cait Flanders is back. Previously my guest on
episode 63 in March of 2018. Sheis the author of Wall Street
Journal bestseller, the year ofless described by Vogue magazine
as a fascinating look into aliving experiment that we can
all learn from. It has beentranslated into 10 languages,
(00:45):
and is sold more than 190,000copies. her new book adventures
in opting out is a field guideto opting out of expectations,
changing paths and leading amore intentional life. He joins
me again to talk about how herlife has changed since writing
her first best selling book andexplained what her newest book
(01:07):
is all about.
This is mostly money and I'myour host Preet Banerjee, and
I'm very happy to have my friendCait Flanders back on the
podcast to talk about her latestbook, adventures in opting out a
field guide to leading anintentional life. Now, in our
(01:31):
last conversation, we talkedabout her previous book, the
year of less, and in thatconversation she denied having
ever owned a slapshot. Kate,welcome back to the show.
Cait Flanders (01:44):
What a great intro. Oh my gosh.
Preet Banerjee (01:48):
So, I mean, the question that all my listeners
have for you. Have you acquireda Slap Chop?
Cait Flanders (01:55):
I have not. I have not restored
Preet Banerjee (01:58):
the club. But for real, this is a legitimate
question. Have you thought moreabout slap shops? Since that
conversation? I'm gonna say No,really. So that you didn't think
after that conversation? What aweird question to ask. And then
to ask it twice. And then youjust it just completely left
(02:18):
your mind. You've never thoughtabout slap chops ever again.
Cait Flanders (02:22):
Never again. You know, I'm a woman who
I can feel it pretty quickly ifI'm interested or not.
Preet Banerjee (02:31):
Okay, I'm just saying like, you know, as far as
kitchen innovations go, I mean,I feel like it didn't get enough
attention. I mean, you know,you're bringing some fun into
the kitchen. you slap things itchops it's gotten utility. Yep.
By the way, I've never I'venever used this like the number
one spokesperson because youryour big fat. You use it every
(02:54):
day. Number two, no one can talkthat guy. I think his name was
Vince who sold the Slap Chopanyways. Alright. Oh my gosh,
enough about that. You willnever opt in to a Slap Chop. Got
it.
Cait Flanders (03:06):
Thanks. I'll say I didn't buy an interesting like
small appliance, I guess. Dotell I bought a blender that
obviously blends cold things,obviously. But that also
(03:28):
actually works as cookingBlender as well. So it has like
built in heating. Oh, like itgets
Preet Banerjee (03:35):
so hot that you can like make soup and stuff
like that. Yeah,
Cait Flanders (03:38):
yeah. And so I'm like, I made so much more soup
this year because of that thing.
Because I could put everythingin and it was done in 30
minutes. Interesting. So okay,this is so off topic.
Preet Banerjee (03:53):
How does it like does it have like a heating
element? Is it just the frictionthat builds up? Or is it the
heat of the motor? How does thatwork? How does it blend? And
it's why we talk
Cait Flanders (04:05):
I'm not an engineer, but what I would say
based on looking at it it doeshave a heating function because
you can even just keep it warmthink about the blender how you
can don't refresh
Preet Banerjee (04:27):
okay okay let's let's let's bring it back on
course hear a little bit enoughabout kitchen innovations. Let
let's do talk about what hashappened since that that
interview and since that lastbook, the year of less, leading
up to your your latest book,which is adventures in opting
(04:47):
out. So tell us what's happenedin your life because when that
book came out, it became aninternational bestseller how
many languages is it availablein now?
Cait Flanders (04:57):
It's in 10 languages and
I only get numbers like everysix months. But last September,
they told me it had sold over190,000 copies in English. Wow.
So yeah, it's it. I just likeit's so funny. That book I just
(05:18):
look now like, it's just likedoing its thing. It's just like
living its own little life thatI never would have imagined for
it. That's so cool. And it's onits own adventure like I just
let it you do you book in thatwas used a traditional publisher
right? I did. Yeah, I'm for thatone. I mean, for both I did.
That one I published with HayHouse, which is very much in
(05:41):
like the self help space. Andthen for adventures. I'm with
little brown Spark. So which isa
Preet Banerjee (05:50):
that's my nickname. Oh, yeah.
Cait Flanders (05:56):
Good. Good word.
Good. We're already workingtogether. Yeah, but there. I'm
like losing the word right now.
Like, what is the word underpublisher of like, imprint?
There we go. Right, an imprintof Little Brown, which is under
the larger company of Hachette.
Preet Banerjee (06:15):
Okay. And, but but tell me about how your life
has changed. You know, you'vewritten this book. It's done so
incredibly well. How has yourlife changed since then?
Cait Flanders (06:27):
Yeah, I mean, probably a few different ways. I
think that on, maybe like thebook or work side of things. And
actually, it leads into alsomoney stuff, too. So that book
was so interesting, because I'm,I got sort of a smaller advance.
(06:48):
And the beauty then of it, doingreally well, which I mean, you
never, you never imagine thatkind of thing. Like, I kind of
thought, you know, it'll sellthree to 5000 copies, maybe? I
don't know. And, yeah, so thethe beauty then of getting a
smaller advance is that I outearned the advance, which means
I now collect royaltiesthroughout the year, and still
(07:11):
do. And so for, like, for work,and then also for just finances
for the past few years, I'vebeen able to only work on like
my next book, nice, like, it'sbeen okay, that the only other
big job I've done was writeanother book proposal, sell
that, and then get, like mythree payments for that advance.
(07:34):
That plus collecting royaltieshas been, I've actually had the
two best earning years I've everhad. Amazing and amazing. I also
like knew this going into 2021,I'm like 21 will be different
because I don't plan on workingon like another book right now.
So I'm like, 2021 will be likethe year of figuring out what I
(07:55):
wanted.
Preet Banerjee (07:57):
But I think I saw you did you put out a cold
somewhere. Maybe he's Africa,where you're saying you're
you're interested in hearing ifthere are any opportunities,
because you're looking for thenext thing to do, right?
Cait Flanders (08:08):
Yeah, I'm just at a spot where I'm like, you know,
the, the sort of path that we'vebeen shown about sort of content
creation online and the ways youcan make money online. It's,
that's never felt like the one Iwanted to take fully. Like, it's
so funny too, because, and thatmeaning things like I could do
(08:28):
online courses, or this or thatand, and I actually have a
background in that I did, Iliterally designed and set up
online courses for the Ministryof Education and BC for five
years. So I I know everythingthat goes into that. And it's
still like, maybe one day itlike still just doesn't feel
like the thing for me. And soI'm, yeah, like this year in
(08:52):
general, I'm really exploring,I've been just having different
conversations, I was connectedthrough my literary agent with a
screenwriting agent whoencouraged me to write a TV
pilot, which essentially is likeyour resume into screenwriting.
Preet Banerjee (09:09):
Hold on a second, hold on a second. A
spark is going off in my headright now, because I have a
little grantsburg Yeah. Is theregonna be a movie made about the
year of less? You know, I, Idon't know. I genuinely don't
know, come come approaching yousaying oh, my God, this is this
is perfect material for a movieright now.
Cait Flanders (09:31):
So I wouldn't say that that has happened yet. I
would say my agent has hadconversations where people have
shown interest but it's, it'sjust never gone anywhere. And so
I don't have this expectationthat it ever will. I could it's
funny, I could write a TV pilotor, or a film script that would
(09:55):
make that a thing or like couldmake it more possible. Like if
you'd give someone an option ofwhat it could look like it
couldn't make it more possible.
But yeah, I don't know. So I'mlike, I'm just kind of exploring
other writing for myself rightnow. It's like the idea of doing
another nonfiction book doesn'tfeel like the thing for me right
now. And I, I'm just learningthis about myself in general
(10:17):
with work, I am someone who Iwant to, like, learn something
new, try it go through theprocess of of it being hard at
times, and like the growth thatcomes with that. And then once
I've learned how to do it, Idon't want to just keep doing
it. Right. So if I were to doanother nonfiction book, I would
feel like I'm just sort of, likechurning it out. I don't want
(10:41):
that I don't want to just domore of the same, I want to do
something really different. Sothat's why this idea of like,
maybe it's a script, or I'vebeen reading a lot of kids books
this year, and like, maybe Iread a kid's book just for fun
and see what that's like. And Idon't know, I'm just I'm, I'm
exploring right now. And thisyear feels like the year it's
fully okay for me to do that.
(11:06):
Because financially, I couldstill be fine. If I didn't make
a ton of money this year, Isaved fortunately, because we
couldn't travel last year, Isaved a lot of money. And so
yeah, it's like 2021, I can justkind of explore and so I'm
enjoying that for what it is.
Okay, so
Preet Banerjee (11:23):
let's, let's talk about your last book,
adventures in opting out a fieldguide to leading in intentional
life. Can you sum up in anutshell, what is the premise of
this book?
Cait Flanders (11:38):
Yeah, I would say, that's funny, if if we had
or changed the, or actuallyhonestly used one of the more
original ideas for the tagline,it would have been more like a
field guide to changing paths inlife. Because I feel like that's
really what it is. Like, if youreally simplified it, that that
is what the book is. But I wouldsay the reason I wanted to write
(12:00):
it, and the main takeaway fromit being are who it's for is,
it's for the people who they'remaking a change that maybe they
don't have anyone else in theirlife who has made a similar
change. And so you really feellike you're sort of walking into
or stepping out, and you're,you're going to be the odd one
(12:21):
out now. And so you don't haveanyone to look to and say, you
know, is this gonna work? Whathappened when you tried this.
And instead, you probably metwith a lot of hesitation from
other people who are really,either they wouldn't do it, or
they're just like, family,they're just nervous for you,
and they want you to be okay.
But I thought, there, there'ssomething incredibly isolating
(12:42):
about that journey. And there'sa lot of inner work that I think
needs to happen. And in orderfor you to go through with it,
if it feels like the rightchoice for you. And the biggest
piece I thought was that wedon't talk about is the downs of
that, like the the ups and thepositives of doing what's right
for you can be endless, butthere are hard parts that come
(13:03):
with it, depending on the choicethat you're making. Right? Like,
depending on how big it is, it'slike, you know, maybe you lose
some friends, maybe people justdon't relate with you anymore.
You could Yeah, I feelostracized by people. There's,
there's just, there are hardparts to it. I don't think a lot
of self help books talk aboutthat aspect.
Preet Banerjee (13:26):
So okay, so let's, let's peel back the
layers a little bit and talkabout, you know, what are the
things that people are optingout, and I think you kind of
explained it by sharing what oneof the original subtitles would
have been, which is changingpaths in life. So if someone is
down, or living their life,right now, the path that they're
(13:49):
on? How does one identify like,is there? Are there some kind of
signs that say, How do I knowI'm not, you know, leading the
path there? What other than sortof a general? I don't know
you're just unhappy or whatever.
But is there some kind of like,how do you diagnose that? Okay,
this is something I need toconsider, like, what is that
process of diagnosing whether ornot you would even need to opt
(14:10):
out of something?
Cait Flanders (14:13):
Yeah, I think it's great. You said the word
unhappy because I actually thinkthat there's, there's things
that you might be feeling orexperiencing that could be under
that realm of being unhappy oractually you opt out sometimes
when things are pretty okay.
And, and you still just get asense that there's something
different that you want to try.
(14:35):
So I would say one of thecoolest parts I almost wish I
had it in front of me, but oneof the coolest parts of working
on the book was that I talked toa bunch of friends who just live
life a little differently thanthey used to. That could mean
anything from you know, smallerones being like they they used
to use social media and now theydon't, or it could be quitting a
(14:57):
job or changing career paths.
entirely. It could be like one,like the first one I ever did
really was deciding not to drinkanymore. So getting sober in
some way. It could be big itcould be moving to a new city or
a new country. It could be likethe one I talked about in the
book is that I gave up myapartment to travel full time.
(15:19):
And and yeah, so just that theycan be really big and small. But
But the best part was askingeveryone kind of like, what were
the signs? Like, what were thethings that you notice that you
were experiencing or feelingthat helps you get to that place
of making that decision. And solike under unhappy, there were a
couple common ones. One justbeing it's like something that
(15:41):
you've been doing literallyfeels like it's out of alignment
now. Like it used to be totallyfine for you. And now you're
like, oh, like morally or, like,ethically or something like
something's like not feelingright here anymore. I just this,
this is not feeling like, like,maybe you've changed in some
way, and you didn't even realizeit until you start feeling those
things.
Preet Banerjee (16:03):
Well, I'll give you a perfect example. And I
think you talked about in yourbook, it's the shame of flying,
huh, yeah. 100% 100% I thinkthis is something that more and
more people are cognizant of theimpact to the environment of
flying, and now that we've hadthe pandemic, and this, this
(16:24):
throws so many wrenches into themix, because on one hand, we
see, okay, look at the impact ofkind of like reducing the carbon
emissions severely for a shortperiod of time, we saw these
positive benefits to theenvironment. And all of a sudden
these climate change targetsseem a look, it is possible. But
(16:44):
that was sort of forced throughlockdowns. But at the same time,
there's been a rise in howpeople think about the
environment, and what they'rewilling to do. As we see a
demographic shift to people whoare maybe willing to do things
differently than previousgenerations, more more people
are either thinking about buyingoffsetting carbon credits, or
(17:04):
just stopping flying altogether,or at least being more
intentional about, alright,well, if we're gonna go, let's
fly across the pond, but thentake the train, or public
transit or whatever. And sowe're seeing this big change.
And for me, you know, a fewyears ago, I was averaging 75
flights a year. And I kind oflike airport life and flying and
(17:27):
all that. But in the last twoyears, you know, you feel not
only this pressure from peoplearound you, but you also feel
like yeah, I mean, we've seennow that we can get so much done
virtually. So there are maybe alot of trips that don't really
need to happen. So it'sdefinitely changing. I don't
know if I would call that somuch opting out, like, maybe I
(17:49):
don't know, you tell me. Becauseit's kind of been this slow
boil. Right, that's led to thisbehavioral change, as opposed to
Okay, I'm sitting down, I'mmaking a plan of things I'm not
going to do. So. is there? Doyou make a distinction between
whether it's kind of like aclean break or something that
manifests over time?
Cait Flanders (18:09):
Oh, I, I mean, I definitely think it happens over
time. And also that the, the,yeah, the change does not have
to be all or nothing. Right? Ithink that to also if it if we
make something have to be all ornothing, that's then so hard for
us to imagine that we won't makeany change at all, because it's
(18:31):
too scary. And and so maybe it'sexperiment for a while, maybe
eventually, you get to a placewhere things are all or nothing
like I was really confronted bythat, especially because I've
been traveling in the UK where,you know, extinction rebellion
rebellion was born out of and
Preet Banerjee (18:48):
what is its rebellion?
Cait Flanders (18:51):
Yeah, it's just I don't know how to describe it
other than like, a massiveprotests that would constantly
happen. And so you'd be inLondon. And, you know, the
protests would get so big, theywould shut down bridges or shut
down some of the main streets ofLondon. And, and this was just
growing quicker and quicker andquicker in 2018 when I was
(19:12):
there, and then 2019 still, and,and, yeah, so I feel like Europe
was just ahead of the game,maybe in sort of like the
climate change protests. And sothen going over there and
spending a lot of time there,seeing this movement, meeting
people all over the UK, who werevowing things like I'm never
(19:33):
going to fly again. And I'm justsitting there thinking, Oh my
gosh, could I ever do like, andright now I don't think the
answer is I'm never going to flyagain. But like you having a lot
of thoughts. I'm just like, whatdoes it mean to be more
intentional applying? I was soconfronted by though when I was
there and got reallyuncomfortable and then for me
(19:54):
just had to get a place of like,what does it mean because the
end of the day too, is Flying isquite literally the worst thing
individuals can do for climatechange. It's literally the worst
thing that we can do. Andthere's so much systemic stuff
that like is not ourresponsibility, or we literally
cannot change. So you're kind oflike, you can't put all the
(20:16):
pressure on yourself, but it isabout figuring out what you're
comfortable with. Yeah, I mean,that's the same thing, like sort
of the moral stuff. It could bepeople who are deciding they
want to go vegetarian or vegan.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bemassive changes. But there can
be just these feelings that arecoming up thinking like this
(20:38):
isn't working anymore. Therecould be bigger ones, like
you're not sleeping at night,maybe your anxieties really
high. You know, or smaller, likeyou go to work every day and
you're just counting down likeyou literally walk in and you
start counting down like, okay,eight hours, seven hours, 55
minutes, seven hours, 45minutes. Like, there, there can
be orders noticing maybe who youbecome when you're at work, like
(21:00):
maybe you become more angry,more toxic. Like there are a lot
of things under the unhappyrealm that could be coming up
but also the happy like, youcould still be okay and want to
make a change. And that for mewas the decision to travel full
time. My life was fine. Like Iwas living in Squamish, British
Columbia. I loved it there.
Preet Banerjee (21:23):
Where are you now?
Cait Flanders (21:25):
Well, I gave up my place so that I could travel
full time and then and then thepandemic happened and I'm
hanging at my dad's house. Oh,next. That's been me and my dad
and my my sister kind of havingto like, become much better
family in the last year and ahalf. Right having to get
really, really comfortable withhanging out together a lot.
(21:48):
Also, my dad's gone likeprobably more than half the year
for work.
Preet Banerjee (22:00):
The conversation with Kate Flanders continues in
just a minute. But first, a fewthank yous to listeners who left
comments on Apple podcasts.
Thank you to Arvind whoappreciates that the podcast
isn't just the same old spendless than you earn advice. Well
thank my guests for that. I'mlucky to get some pretty
interesting guests on the showfor sure. Que no Nick is upset
that I don't post weekly. I'mgoing to disappoint you my
(22:26):
friend I probably going to pissyou off. Do you want to tell you
this after Episode 100, which isthe next episode I think I'm
going to take a short hiatus.
Apologies, and Danny's iTunesand he likes all the episodes
but in particular, reallyenjoyed Neil Pesce riccia. Neil
was a guest on episode 79.
Fascinating guy. And if you wantto hear more from Neil, he has
(22:50):
his own podcast called currybooks, which I highly recommend.
To everyone who leaves ratingsand comments on Apple podcasts.
I appreciate them. And I do readthem all. And now back to the
conversation with Kate Flanders.
(23:21):
Now, when it comes to your beeffects of the pandemic, we had
a lot of people who had, youknow, white collar jobs working
at a computer, they were able towork from home. And now that
we're starting to enterreopening, there are a lot of
people who are, you know, kindof opting out of commuting and
(23:41):
saying, hey, it's great that theoffice is going to be open. But
I'm kind of cool with likestaying home from working. Not
everyone feels that way. Butthere are a lot of people who
are opting out of that commute.
And is this is this an exampleof something that people are
opting out of because they'venow discovered that there's a
misalignment? I think before itmay have felt like there was no
(24:05):
choice you had to have thatcommute if you wanted to not
have a mortgage that was superunaffordable, just slightly
unaffordable, but not superunaffordable. So you have to
live away from the office untilyou commute and you know, it
slowly suck the life out of youevery day, for years and then
getting those two hours back,even though it's been replaced
(24:27):
with some other you know, thingsto deal with because of the
pandemic. think people arelooking at life differently
because now they realize likehat looks like the world can
actually keep on turning. If Iwork from home from a laptop and
keep on doing what I need to dowithout having to be in the
office. Have you noticed anyother changes in people's
behaviors as a result of thepandemic and wanting to take
(24:50):
different paths in their life?
Cait Flanders (24:54):
A lot. I mean, we could joke about one which is
that divorce rates seem to go uplast year. Oh, I think so i
think so I
Preet Banerjee (25:03):
wouldn't be surprised. That's one of those
things where it could could youcould tell me the numbers. And
if they went either way, I wouldbelieve you. Because one, things
are getting so unaffordable forpeople that ending a
relationship can be preventedbecause of financial reasons or
like, Listen, we can't afford toget divorced, we're just gonna
live together in misery. Orbecause people are now forced to
(25:26):
spend more time together, andthey're reevaluating their goals
spending more time, whatever itis, I can see them being unhappy
to the point of endingrelationships.
Cait Flanders (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard of Yeah, a lot of people
who have ended relationships inthe last year, I think has been
one. people wanting to move todifferent cities, I think on the
commuting side of things,actually. And for affordability,
there's been a lot of peoplemoving to smaller towns, right,
I understanding like, well, Ican work from home that I'm
going to go somewhere where it'scheaper to live, and I have a
(25:55):
better quality of life.
Preet Banerjee (25:57):
Yeah, I mean, the main point for a lot of
people is what's the internetspeed? It displays? Like, could
I actually work from here?
Because if so I'm there. Right?
But if it's spotty, then youknow, I can't put on my list of
places I would live. That's howimportant the internet is.
Cait Flanders (26:11):
Yes. Well, and then it's been so hard,
obviously to because so manypeople are moving to small
towns, and all those prices aregoing up. But anyways, yeah, I
think that, you know, thepandemic was so hard for so many
people. And then for those thatit didn't impact too negatively
it it really was a period of abit of a reckoning and also
(26:34):
like, how would it not happen?
you're forced to slow down ifyou've never slowed down before
and sort of asked yourself,like, what am I doing? What?
I've just been going going goingwith this for so long, I didn't
really think twice, like, whatdo I want to be doing? How do I
want to spend my time, I thinkthat it's been a reckoning for a
lot of people,
Preet Banerjee (26:55):
you know, to your point. So my partner, she
was living in the UK, and thenduring the pandemic, and it
being locked down here with me,which is fantastic. It was the
longest stretch of time we'vehad together continuously, just
like 14 months. Amazing. She gota job back in the UK, and she
just left couple weeks ago. Andwhen she was you know, applying
(27:19):
because she finished herpostdoc, and she's looking to
get, you know, a tenure trackposition at, at universities
anywhere, right? early stagecareers, there's like, I'll take
a job anywhere. And so sheapplied to a university in the
UK. And she got the job. Andwell, they offered it to her,
and she was nervous about whatmy reaction was going to be. And
(27:43):
I think because partly becauseof the pandemic, and also
because I've never had a fiveyear plan like I've never I
mean, listen, neuroscience, autoracing, finance, all this other
stuff. I mean, I've never had toplan the same. And so she was
worried that I would be maybehesitant to to possibly move.
And so she was like, oh, shouldI take this job? I was like,
What are you talking about? I'vealready started looking at
(28:05):
places, I cannot wait to sort ofexplore more of the world. And I
feel that the pandemic was a bitof a wake up call in that
respect. I'm very privileged,very lucky, I haven't been
negatively affected. And I don'twant to get to the end of life
and say, yeah, never lived inanother country. And it's
interesting, you I believe youreferenced Ronnie wares book
(28:29):
regrets of the dying. Funnystory about that I was asked to
give a commencement speech at Uof T. And it was back in I think
it was 2009 2010. And I justread an article by bronnie ware,
about where she talked about.
For those who are not familiar,she wrote a book called regrets
of the dying. She's a palliativecare nurse. And she basically
collected these stories aboutwhat people expressed in their
(28:52):
last weeks of life when theyknew it was the end. And there's
a level of you'll have to muteme when you're Yeah, no worries.
Wow. I would say that the bailladies here. Typically what that
means, no problem. Oh my gosh.
(29:13):
So there's this, you know, thismoment at the end of people's
lives where they open up to adegree that maybe they never
have before, and they open up toher. And so she compiled these
lists of of these regrets. And Ihad read that article before she
wrote her book. And I was like,man, I can't wait to check out
that book. But at that article,she summarized what those top
(29:33):
five regrets were of the dying.
And those things reallyresonated with me what she said
and since that time, and thatmade it into the commencement
speech, because I was like, I'mtoo young to have any life
advice. I have to get some fromsomeone else. So I put in my
speech, but I never want to goback and think about all the
things that she said and some ofthe things that she said was
(29:56):
people you know, they all See, Iwish I'd spent more time staying
in touch with friends, you know,college buddies, whatever. No
one ever says, oh, man, I wish Ispent even more time at work,
that is not a thing that mattersin the end. No. And so that
coupled with, you know, but 15years ago, I was pretty ill
(30:18):
coupled with me being ahypochondriac, I thought, you
know, I was done. And so thatchanged my perspective on life
from that point forward. And soI feel like I opted out of the
traditional paths in life Awhile ago. But I don't know if
that was, I opted out of thingswhere I just have not opted into
some of those traditional paths.
(30:40):
Because again, I've never had afive year plan.
Cait Flanders (30:41):
Yeah, you just are the, the person who like
knew that you just knew, whereaslike, I think on on my end, I
was so influenced by my familyand the things that they had
said to me, and, and, you know,honestly, a large one being, I
remember growing up and beingtold over and over again, that
like, travel was just not reallyan option. Like I had to work
(31:07):
and save and do the things bythe place. That was the thing.
And so no one presented theoption to me of actually, you
could work, save instead forlike retirement so that you're
comfortable later in that way.
But that, like there is anoption where you can just work
to live. And that it doesn'thave to I don't have to
(31:32):
accumulate maybe physicalassets, I can accumulate money
instead. So that I'm comfortablelater in a different way that I
can live my life in whatever wayI want. Like they could have
just encouraged the savingsportion. And, and suddenly, you
know, if you're doing thatgreat, go go do whatever you
want. Yeah,
Preet Banerjee (31:54):
I think that's that's a really important point.
Because one of the things thatI've noticed with people who
have maybe trouble gettingstarted saving for whatever
future medium term long term isthat they see savings as some
kind of expense, they don'tconnect it to some kind of
future outcome. And I think whenpeople make more of that
(32:15):
connection, it gets, I wouldn'tsay it's easy, but it's a little
bit easier to sort of cope withthat reduction in spending now.
Because it's tied to some kindof future outcome that is going
to have more purpose, drivehappiness, or what have you. And
again, these can be long termgoals, they can be medium term
goals, for some people at savingup just enough so that they can
(32:39):
opt out of whatever careertrajectory that they're on,
because the reality is it doestake money to exercise some of
these choices. Yes. But alongthat vein, and tied to that, you
mentioned homeownership. We knownow that there are a lot of
people who are just they'refrozen out of homeownership in
some of the big cities inCanada, pretty much forever.
(33:01):
Like it's we've passed the pointof no return for for a large
number of people. And yet therestill exists the societal and
generational pressure to say,well, you're not an adult,
unless you're a homeowner, orwhat have you. And you talk
about how some of the hardestparts of opting out is dealing
with the pressure around you.
What's your advice to people whoare making big whether it's, you
(33:21):
know, resigning the fact thatthey're just not going to own a
house in certain cities? Ormaybe they'll never be a
homeowner, or anything else thatthey might be opting out of, or
changing paths to? What's youradvice with how they can be more
successful?
Cait Flanders (33:39):
Oh, my gosh, I mean, I could give a very short
answer. And and a longer one, Iwould say the short answer is,
most of the time, whateverpeople are saying to you is just
what they would be saying tothemselves. Meaning that, you
know, if someone's pressuringyou to do one thing, or if you
say, you're going to dosomething different, and they're
(34:00):
trying to, like, say things tostop you or to scare you from
it. It, it's just because theycouldn't imagine doing that for
themselves. There's also anaspect I think, with parents,
where parents just have this,it's just built in, they worry,
they want you to be okay. Youknow, they just do and so it's
scary to, for a parent to hearthat you're gonna do something
(34:23):
that they again, it's they justdon't get it like it's just not
something that they would havechosen for themselves. And so
they can't really imagine allthat goes into that decision
making. But yeah, it's likeoften times it has almost
nothing to do with you andeverything to do with what they
would or wouldn't do forthemselves. Whoever it is that
(34:44):
is giving you this advice orjust kind of adding this
pressure. I look at things formyself. I look at things for
myself from a place of awe,honestly, like What am I going
to feel most comfortable withhomeownership does especially
(35:05):
like I'm in BC, it's not anoption. Unless I buy with
someone, it's just not, I guessI could buy a condo just doesn't
really interest me. And so whywould I pressure myself? When
it's, I don't know, I look at itlike, what is the thing that
would actually excite me? Likewhat would feel exciting to me
(35:25):
instead is to kind of live andtravel the way that I do. But to
save for the future, so that Ibecause I'm self employed, I'm
like, I have to be able to helpmyself later in life. And but
like to like to speak to bronnieware stuff like to enjoy life
now. I it I don't know. It'slike, we are because of Canada's
(35:52):
on affordability is that pieceof what can you afford to do?
And what would actually exciteyou to save, like, savings or,
or investing in any wayincluding property? It's like,
if it doesn't excite you in someway, or if it doesn't energize
you, or feel like you're movingforward in a way that you want
to? Like, how can you do that Ididn't know how to save for
(36:14):
things until I had a goal thatexcited me to quit my job.
Unknown (36:21):
For myself,
Preet Banerjee (36:24):
I think there's a lot of people who share that
goal.
Cait Flanders (36:27):
I had to save up, you know, months and months of
living expenses and lineup workas well. And so I did not feel
comfortable quitting my jobuntil I knew I could cover
myself for you know, like sixmonths. And I had six months of
work lined up. And so I was kindof like, Listen, if I get to do
this for six months, that willbe so cool. Like, I will not
(36:48):
regret trying that for sixmonths.
Preet Banerjee (36:49):
And so how long ago was that when you left the
corporate job?
Cait Flanders (36:54):
Actually, it was I was thinking it was a to the
day, but it was the 26th ofJune, six years ago. Wow. So
2015
Preet Banerjee (37:07):
Yeah, gene regulation. So when you when you
did make that leap? What did youdid you have any idea what the
next six years would have lookedlike for you? Oh,
Cait Flanders (37:18):
my gosh, no, talk about not having a five year
plan. I had a six month plan foryou. I had work lined up for six
months. So I knew I had prettysolid income for six months. And
then I knew I had savings asbackup. And no and also to like
I that first year, I worked alot because I think you have
(37:41):
that like early self employmentfear. If you say no, all the
work is going to dry up. Whenyou learn like no, it's okay to
say no to the things that don'tfeel good. And, but stay open
and things will come and so Iworked like too much in that
first year. And then July of2016. So a year in is when I got
(38:07):
my first book deal. I got it theday before my birthday. And, and
everything. Everything changed.
Like that financially. I stillhad to freelance and do stuff
like that, because like I said,my first book, the advance was
smaller. It wasn't enough tolike live off of. But yeah,
everything about work andprojections forward was like,
(38:29):
Well, I didn't know what I wasdoing before. But let's see.
Let's see where this goes.
Preet Banerjee (38:35):
So the advance on your next book after that as
a multiple of your first advancehow much bigger was the second
advance?
Cait Flanders (38:42):
It was three times and I'm not afraid of
numbers, though. My first onewas 35,000. And my second was
100. Oh, nice. And yeah, nice.
Although, like it comes with itsown thing of I have to it's
gonna take so much longer tooutline that now. Right. So
yeah. Really? Yeah,
Preet Banerjee (39:02):
you'll go I know what you mean, I know what you
mean. And I, I've never put toomuch stock into the advances
only because, you know, theamount that a publisher takes
book and with the author gets, Imean, even if you never out earn
your advance. They're doingfine. Yes. So I was never really
(39:22):
concerned about that foradvances for a book. But I can
certainly see when you get toadvances of that level, a six
figure advance, you probablyfeel a lot more pressure, right?
Cait Flanders (39:34):
There's more pressure, but also like I was
really proud of that. There wasalso some interesting stuff for
me mostly in my head and alsobecause I know a lot of guys and
a lot of white guys who havegotten book deals. And like
their first book deals being 125real is also the Yeah, so
there's also this
Preet Banerjee (39:53):
pink celebrities are just no unknown.
Cait Flanders (39:55):
No total unknowns are people like I'm like I have
a much larger following I like Ido not know how that happened.
And so just there's this pieceof me that's like, almost like I
want more for women. Like it'snot even a like it's an I was
not ungrateful, but there's justthis piece of being like, How
fascinating that my first bookdid so well, and I can't even
(40:18):
get what those guys are gettingon their first ones. That's
fascinating. Fascinating is acharitable word.
Preet Banerjee (40:29):
Yeah, that's, uh, yeah. I think the best word.
Cait Flanders (40:35):
Yeah, more more pressure, for sure. I think at
the same time, it's like, likeyou said, publishers are doing
okay. And also, they take theirown calculated risks. Right,
like, Yeah, so? Yeah,absolutely. I worked for it. So,
Preet Banerjee (40:52):
yeah, good for you. I'm so happy for you and
your success with with writingand whatever you're going to be
doing next. And I have to thankyou, for the signed copy of your
book for Cheryl's mom, she'sover the moon about that. And I
think you just started apodcast. So this is the you
(41:13):
know, this is the part of thepodcast where you get a
commercial to talk about remote,whatever you want. Right. And if
I'm not mistaken, you juststarted a new podcast where
you're out in nature, I hear itis the most soothing podcast on
the internet. So tell us moreabout that.
Cait Flanders (41:31):
Yeah, you know, I will say that this project felt
like an opt out in the sense of,like, I've never heard anything
like this. Thinking that I justwant to go outside and share a
little bit of like, where I'mat, or something I'm learning or
(41:52):
a tool that's like helping methat week. I think that I
haven't shared publicly otherthan through the two books. It's
like I stopped blogging, I kindof stopped doing everything that
I used to do. And I haven'treally shared publicly in about
three years. And I think I'vealso like, in that time, I've
done a ton of therapy, I've justexplored so many different
(42:16):
things and traveled and donedone all these things that I'm
like, I don't think that I'velike integrated all of that and
who I am now into my work in away where were people know, came
to get to know me again, almost.
And I thought I, I, my originalthought for the podcast, and I
do believe we will be able to dothis one day was to go outside
(42:36):
with a friend and record aconversation with a friend and
not an interview. Not like, tellme all these different things.
But like, let's just likeexplore where we're at right
now.
Preet Banerjee (42:50):
Oh, I think that would be very successful. for a
couple of reasons. I don't knowwhat it is. But the more
connected online we are alsofeel the more alone people feel.
And there's so many places whereI've seen where people just, for
(43:11):
example, there are people whocontinuously watch the same
syndicated TV shows over andover and over again, because
they are people that kind offeel like in their little world
like friends, there's tons ofpeople who watch friends, many,
many times over Seinfeld,another example. Are you
familiar with the concept of MCQbangs? Oh, tell me. So these are
(43:33):
videos on YouTube, where peoplejust take a giant meal and they
eat it on video, and then talk.
And you're just kind of hangingout with them while they eat. I
think I haven't watched a lot ofthem. I've been told the concept
and these videos are insanelypopular. But that's all is I'm
thinking to myself, why the hellwhatever. Yeah, but it's a big
thing. And so I think yoursactually makes a lot more sense
(43:55):
because it's a conversationyou're exposed to the sounds of
nature, super calming thingsthat we don't take the time to
enjoy. Because the world is soelectronic and connected and we
don't have a say I would saythis is free time, like you
know, just where you would goout and just do nothing. Right
(44:15):
and you just sort of be an existin the world without checking
your phone without, you know,reading something on Twitter or
a website you just there. And soI think having that experience
with people especially live insuch a beautiful part of the
world. I think that's somethingthat would be very attractive to
people. So I'd be interested toto hear those those
conversations with friends inthe in the wild.
Cait Flanders (44:38):
Yeah. And like I said, the conversation piece of
it feels so important. Like,what does it look like to drop
into just a conversation thattwo good friends are having
where rather than an interviewwhere a person especially
because I want to do them withlike friends. So it's like I
don't want my friends to feellike they have to be on a
pedestal and be some kind ofexpert on something All right,
(45:00):
I'm just like, we haveinteresting conversations. Is it
okay if I hit record on one ofthem? And, yeah, I think it'd be
like he's like soothing orcalming. So just think there
could even be things in it uplike, think you could learn a
little bit about, you know, whatit takes to be really present in
a conversation. You can learncommunication, like there's a
(45:24):
communications aspect of it. Andyeah, but I anyways, I couldn't
do that now. And I don't reallythink I'll be able to do that
until like, 2022. And that'sokay. But I, I just kept sitting
with it being like, I want tostart something like I want to
start. And yeah, so I startedopting out the podcast, they're
(45:44):
usually typically short, like2030 minutes. So it's been a
couple that have been longer butand it's just me outside,
essentially talking to myself.
20 or 30 minutes. I think I'menjoying it on my end, both
because actually, I find itquite relaxing. But going back
to the first point, like I feellike I'm expressing myself more
fully than I have in the past.
(46:10):
And it's just nice to feelcomfortable doing that.
Preet Banerjee (46:14):
So what's the podcast called opting out,
opting out, and I guess thetitle of the book is clear, it's
adventures in opting out and youcan find that anywhere books are
sold. And Kate, I just want tosay it's a pleasure as always
chatting with you always have ablast.
Cait Flanders (46:35):
Always Always. I can't wait till we can hang out
and honestly, it'll probably bein the UK because my ultimate
goal is to get over theresometime next year as well. Like
on a more permanent basis.
Preet Banerjee (46:45):
Nice nice well, things go according to plan I
should be there probably in thespring maybe earlier because
Canadian winters are you know,pretty brutal. And UK are still
miseries but it's not. Bc winterdo, which is Yeah, it's still
doable. All right. Well, I'llsee you then. Thanks so much,
(47:06):
Kate. Thank you.
(47:28):
If you want more personalfinance content or you have
questions for me, or topicsuggestions for the podcast, you
can follow me on Twitter orInstagram and ask away. It's the
same handle in both cases atPreet Banerjee, also have two
YouTube channels, you cansubscribe to my main channel
which covers personal financeand investing topics that are
(47:49):
global in scope, and a Canadianspecific channel as well. That's
it for this episode. Thanks asalways for listening
You just it just completely left your mind.
(00:03):
You've never thought about slapchops ever again.
Cait Flanders (00:05):
Never again. You know, I'm a woman who
I can feel it pretty quickly ifI'm interested or not.
Preet Banerjee (00:22):
Cait Flanders is back. Previously my guest on
episode 63 in March of 2018. Sheis the author of Wall Street
Journal bestseller, the year ofless described by Vogue magazine
as a fascinating look into aliving experiment that we can
all learn from. It has beentranslated into 10 languages,
(00:45):
and is sold more than 190,000copies. her new book adventures
in opting out is a field guideto opting out of expectations,
changing paths and leading amore intentional life. He joins
me again to talk about how herlife has changed since writing
her first best selling book andexplained what her newest book
(01:07):
is all about.
This is mostly money and I'myour host Preet Banerjee, and
I'm very happy to have my friendCait Flanders back on the
podcast to talk about her latestbook, adventures in opting out a
field guide to leading anintentional life. Now, in our
(01:31):
last conversation, we talkedabout her previous book, the
year of less, and in thatconversation she denied having
ever owned a slapshot. Kate,welcome back to the show.
Cait Flanders (01:44):
What a great intro. Oh my gosh.
Preet Banerjee (01:48):
So, I mean, the question that all my listeners
have for you. Have you acquireda Slap Chop?
Cait Flanders (01:55):
I have not. I have not restored
Preet Banerjee (01:58):
the club. But for real, this is a legitimate
question. Have you thought moreabout slap shops? Since that
conversation? I'm gonna say No,really. So that you didn't think
after that conversation? What aweird question to ask. And then
to ask it twice. And then youjust it just completely left
(02:18):
your mind. You've never thoughtabout slap chops ever again.
Cait Flanders (02:22):
Never again. You know, I'm a woman who
I can feel it pretty quickly ifI'm interested or not.
Preet Banerjee (02:31):
Okay, I'm just saying like, you know, as far as
kitchen innovations go, I mean,I feel like it didn't get enough
attention. I mean, you know,you're bringing some fun into
the kitchen. you slap things itchops it's gotten utility. Yep.
By the way, I've never I'venever used this like the number
one spokesperson because youryour big fat. You use it every
(02:54):
day. Number two, no one can talkthat guy. I think his name was
Vince who sold the Slap Chopanyways. Alright. Oh my gosh,
enough about that. You willnever opt in to a Slap Chop. Got
it.
Cait Flanders (03:06):
Thanks. I'll say I didn't buy an interesting like
small appliance, I guess. Dotell I bought a blender that
obviously blends cold things,obviously. But that also
(03:28):
actually works as cookingBlender as well. So it has like
built in heating. Oh, like itgets
Preet Banerjee (03:35):
so hot that you can like make soup and stuff
like that. Yeah,
Cait Flanders (03:38):
yeah. And so I'm like, I made so much more soup
this year because of that thing.
Because I could put everythingin and it was done in 30
minutes. Interesting. So okay,this is so off topic.
Preet Banerjee (03:53):
How does it like does it have like a heating
element? Is it just the frictionthat builds up? Or is it the
heat of the motor? How does thatwork? How does it blend? And
it's why we talk
Cait Flanders (04:05):
I'm not an engineer, but what I would say
based on looking at it it doeshave a heating function because
you can even just keep it warmthink about the blender how you
can don't refresh
Preet Banerjee (04:27):
okay okay let's let's let's bring it back on
course hear a little bit enoughabout kitchen innovations. Let
let's do talk about what hashappened since that that
interview and since that lastbook, the year of less, leading
up to your your latest book,which is adventures in opting
(04:47):
out. So tell us what's happenedin your life because when that
book came out, it became aninternational bestseller how
many languages is it availablein now?
Cait Flanders (04:57):
It's in 10 languages and
I only get numbers like everysix months. But last September,
they told me it had sold over190,000 copies in English. Wow.
So yeah, it's it. I just likeit's so funny. That book I just
(05:18):
look now like, it's just likedoing its thing. It's just like
living its own little life thatI never would have imagined for
it. That's so cool. And it's onits own adventure like I just
let it you do you book in thatwas used a traditional publisher
right? I did. Yeah, I'm for thatone. I mean, for both I did.
That one I published with HayHouse, which is very much in
(05:41):
like the self help space. Andthen for adventures. I'm with
little brown Spark. So which isa
Preet Banerjee (05:50):
that's my nickname. Oh, yeah.
Cait Flanders (05:56):
Good. Good word.
Good. We're already workingtogether. Yeah, but there. I'm
like losing the word right now.
Like, what is the word underpublisher of like, imprint?
There we go. Right, an imprintof Little Brown, which is under
the larger company of Hachette.
Preet Banerjee (06:15):
Okay. And, but but tell me about how your life
has changed. You know, you'vewritten this book. It's done so
incredibly well. How has yourlife changed since then?
Cait Flanders (06:27):
Yeah, I mean, probably a few different ways. I
think that on, maybe like thebook or work side of things. And
actually, it leads into alsomoney stuff, too. So that book
was so interesting, because I'm,I got sort of a smaller advance.
(06:48):
And the beauty then of it, doingreally well, which I mean, you
never, you never imagine thatkind of thing. Like, I kind of
thought, you know, it'll sellthree to 5000 copies, maybe? I
don't know. And, yeah, so thethe beauty then of getting a
smaller advance is that I outearned the advance, which means
I now collect royaltiesthroughout the year, and still
(07:11):
do. And so for, like, for work,and then also for just finances
for the past few years, I'vebeen able to only work on like
my next book, nice, like, it'sbeen okay, that the only other
big job I've done was writeanother book proposal, sell
that, and then get, like mythree payments for that advance.
(07:34):
That plus collecting royaltieshas been, I've actually had the
two best earning years I've everhad. Amazing and amazing. I also
like knew this going into 2021,I'm like 21 will be different
because I don't plan on workingon like another book right now.
So I'm like, 2021 will be likethe year of figuring out what I
(07:55):
wanted.
Preet Banerjee (07:57):
But I think I saw you did you put out a cold
somewhere. Maybe he's Africa,where you're saying you're
you're interested in hearing ifthere are any opportunities,
because you're looking for thenext thing to do, right?
Cait Flanders (08:08):
Yeah, I'm just at a spot where I'm like, you know,
the, the sort of path that we'vebeen shown about sort of content
creation online and the ways youcan make money online. It's,
that's never felt like the one Iwanted to take fully. Like, it's
so funny too, because, and thatmeaning things like I could do
(08:28):
online courses, or this or thatand, and I actually have a
background in that I did, Iliterally designed and set up
online courses for the Ministryof Education and BC for five
years. So I I know everythingthat goes into that. And it's
still like, maybe one day itlike still just doesn't feel
like the thing for me. And soI'm, yeah, like this year in
(08:52):
general, I'm really exploring,I've been just having different
conversations, I was connectedthrough my literary agent with a
screenwriting agent whoencouraged me to write a TV
pilot, which essentially is likeyour resume into screenwriting.
Preet Banerjee (09:09):
Hold on a second, hold on a second. A
spark is going off in my headright now, because I have a
little grantsburg Yeah. Is theregonna be a movie made about the
year of less? You know, I, Idon't know. I genuinely don't
know, come come approaching yousaying oh, my God, this is this
is perfect material for a movieright now.
Cait Flanders (09:31):
So I wouldn't say that that has happened yet. I
would say my agent has hadconversations where people have
shown interest but it's, it'sjust never gone anywhere. And so
I don't have this expectationthat it ever will. I could it's
funny, I could write a TV pilotor, or a film script that would
(09:55):
make that a thing or like couldmake it more possible. Like if
you'd give someone an option ofwhat it could look like it
couldn't make it more possible.
But yeah, I don't know. So I'mlike, I'm just kind of exploring
other writing for myself rightnow. It's like the idea of doing
another nonfiction book doesn'tfeel like the thing for me right
now. And I, I'm just learningthis about myself in general
(10:17):
with work, I am someone who Iwant to, like, learn something
new, try it go through theprocess of of it being hard at
times, and like the growth thatcomes with that. And then once
I've learned how to do it, Idon't want to just keep doing
it. Right. So if I were to doanother nonfiction book, I would
feel like I'm just sort of, likechurning it out. I don't want
(10:41):
that I don't want to just domore of the same, I want to do
something really different. Sothat's why this idea of like,
maybe it's a script, or I'vebeen reading a lot of kids books
this year, and like, maybe Iread a kid's book just for fun
and see what that's like. And Idon't know, I'm just I'm, I'm
exploring right now. And thisyear feels like the year it's
fully okay for me to do that.
(11:06):
Because financially, I couldstill be fine. If I didn't make
a ton of money this year, Isaved fortunately, because we
couldn't travel last year, Isaved a lot of money. And so
yeah, it's like 2021, I can justkind of explore and so I'm
enjoying that for what it is.
Okay, so
Preet Banerjee (11:23):
let's, let's talk about your last book,
adventures in opting out a fieldguide to leading in intentional
life. Can you sum up in anutshell, what is the premise of
this book?
Cait Flanders (11:38):
Yeah, I would say, that's funny, if if we had
or changed the, or actuallyhonestly used one of the more
original ideas for the tagline,it would have been more like a
field guide to changing paths inlife. Because I feel like that's
really what it is. Like, if youreally simplified it, that that
is what the book is. But I wouldsay the reason I wanted to write
(12:00):
it, and the main takeaway fromit being are who it's for is,
it's for the people who they'remaking a change that maybe they
don't have anyone else in theirlife who has made a similar
change. And so you really feellike you're sort of walking into
or stepping out, and you're,you're going to be the odd one
(12:21):
out now. And so you don't haveanyone to look to and say, you
know, is this gonna work? Whathappened when you tried this.
And instead, you probably metwith a lot of hesitation from
other people who are really,either they wouldn't do it, or
they're just like, family,they're just nervous for you,
and they want you to be okay.
But I thought, there, there'ssomething incredibly isolating
(12:42):
about that journey. And there'sa lot of inner work that I think
needs to happen. And in orderfor you to go through with it,
if it feels like the rightchoice for you. And the biggest
piece I thought was that wedon't talk about is the downs of
that, like the the ups and thepositives of doing what's right
for you can be endless, butthere are hard parts that come
(13:03):
with it, depending on the choicethat you're making. Right? Like,
depending on how big it is, it'slike, you know, maybe you lose
some friends, maybe people justdon't relate with you anymore.
You could Yeah, I feelostracized by people. There's,
there's just, there are hardparts to it. I don't think a lot
of self help books talk aboutthat aspect.
Preet Banerjee (13:26):
So okay, so let's, let's peel back the
layers a little bit and talkabout, you know, what are the
things that people are optingout, and I think you kind of
explained it by sharing what oneof the original subtitles would
have been, which is changingpaths in life. So if someone is
down, or living their life,right now, the path that they're
(13:49):
on? How does one identify like,is there? Are there some kind of
signs that say, How do I knowI'm not, you know, leading the
path there? What other than sortof a general? I don't know
you're just unhappy or whatever.
But is there some kind of like,how do you diagnose that? Okay,
this is something I need toconsider, like, what is that
process of diagnosing whether ornot you would even need to opt
(14:10):
out of something?
Cait Flanders (14:13):
Yeah, I think it's great. You said the word
unhappy because I actually thinkthat there's, there's things
that you might be feeling orexperiencing that could be under
that realm of being unhappy oractually you opt out sometimes
when things are pretty okay.
And, and you still just get asense that there's something
different that you want to try.
(14:35):
So I would say one of thecoolest parts I almost wish I
had it in front of me, but oneof the coolest parts of working
on the book was that I talked toa bunch of friends who just live
life a little differently thanthey used to. That could mean
anything from you know, smallerones being like they they used
to use social media and now theydon't, or it could be quitting a
(14:57):
job or changing career paths.
entirely. It could be like one,like the first one I ever did
really was deciding not to drinkanymore. So getting sober in
some way. It could be big itcould be moving to a new city or
a new country. It could be likethe one I talked about in the
book is that I gave up myapartment to travel full time.
(15:19):
And and yeah, so just that theycan be really big and small. But
But the best part was askingeveryone kind of like, what were
the signs? Like, what were thethings that you notice that you
were experiencing or feelingthat helps you get to that place
of making that decision. And solike under unhappy, there were a
couple common ones. One justbeing it's like something that
(15:41):
you've been doing literallyfeels like it's out of alignment
now. Like it used to be totallyfine for you. And now you're
like, oh, like morally or, like,ethically or something like
something's like not feelingright here anymore. I just this,
this is not feeling like, like,maybe you've changed in some
way, and you didn't even realizeit until you start feeling those
things.
Preet Banerjee (16:03):
Well, I'll give you a perfect example. And I
think you talked about in yourbook, it's the shame of flying,
huh, yeah. 100% 100% I thinkthis is something that more and
more people are cognizant of theimpact to the environment of
flying, and now that we've hadthe pandemic, and this, this
(16:24):
throws so many wrenches into themix, because on one hand, we
see, okay, look at the impact ofkind of like reducing the carbon
emissions severely for a shortperiod of time, we saw these
positive benefits to theenvironment. And all of a sudden
these climate change targetsseem a look, it is possible. But
(16:44):
that was sort of forced throughlockdowns. But at the same time,
there's been a rise in howpeople think about the
environment, and what they'rewilling to do. As we see a
demographic shift to people whoare maybe willing to do things
differently than previousgenerations, more more people
are either thinking about buyingoffsetting carbon credits, or
(17:04):
just stopping flying altogether,or at least being more
intentional about, alright,well, if we're gonna go, let's
fly across the pond, but thentake the train, or public
transit or whatever. And sowe're seeing this big change.
And for me, you know, a fewyears ago, I was averaging 75
flights a year. And I kind oflike airport life and flying and
(17:27):
all that. But in the last twoyears, you know, you feel not
only this pressure from peoplearound you, but you also feel
like yeah, I mean, we've seennow that we can get so much done
virtually. So there are maybe alot of trips that don't really
need to happen. So it'sdefinitely changing. I don't
know if I would call that somuch opting out, like, maybe I
(17:49):
don't know, you tell me. Becauseit's kind of been this slow
boil. Right, that's led to thisbehavioral change, as opposed to
Okay, I'm sitting down, I'mmaking a plan of things I'm not
going to do. So. is there? Doyou make a distinction between
whether it's kind of like aclean break or something that
manifests over time?
Cait Flanders (18:09):
Oh, I, I mean, I definitely think it happens over
time. And also that the, the,yeah, the change does not have
to be all or nothing. Right? Ithink that to also if it if we
make something have to be all ornothing, that's then so hard for
us to imagine that we won't makeany change at all, because it's
(18:31):
too scary. And and so maybe it'sexperiment for a while, maybe
eventually, you get to a placewhere things are all or nothing
like I was really confronted bythat, especially because I've
been traveling in the UK where,you know, extinction rebellion
rebellion was born out of and
Preet Banerjee (18:48):
what is its rebellion?
Cait Flanders (18:51):
Yeah, it's just I don't know how to describe it
other than like, a massiveprotests that would constantly
happen. And so you'd be inLondon. And, you know, the
protests would get so big, theywould shut down bridges or shut
down some of the main streets ofLondon. And, and this was just
growing quicker and quicker andquicker in 2018 when I was
(19:12):
there, and then 2019 still, and,and, yeah, so I feel like Europe
was just ahead of the game,maybe in sort of like the
climate change protests. And sothen going over there and
spending a lot of time there,seeing this movement, meeting
people all over the UK, who werevowing things like I'm never
(19:33):
going to fly again. And I'm justsitting there thinking, Oh my
gosh, could I ever do like, andright now I don't think the
answer is I'm never going to flyagain. But like you having a lot
of thoughts. I'm just like, whatdoes it mean to be more
intentional applying? I was soconfronted by though when I was
there and got reallyuncomfortable and then for me
(19:54):
just had to get a place of like,what does it mean because the
end of the day too, is Flying isquite literally the worst thing
individuals can do for climatechange. It's literally the worst
thing that we can do. Andthere's so much systemic stuff
that like is not ourresponsibility, or we literally
cannot change. So you're kind oflike, you can't put all the
(20:16):
pressure on yourself, but it isabout figuring out what you're
comfortable with. Yeah, I mean,that's the same thing, like sort
of the moral stuff. It could bepeople who are deciding they
want to go vegetarian or vegan.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bemassive changes. But there can
be just these feelings that arecoming up thinking like this
(20:38):
isn't working anymore. Therecould be bigger ones, like
you're not sleeping at night,maybe your anxieties really
high. You know, or smaller, likeyou go to work every day and
you're just counting down likeyou literally walk in and you
start counting down like, okay,eight hours, seven hours, 55
minutes, seven hours, 45minutes. Like, there, there can
be orders noticing maybe who youbecome when you're at work, like
(21:00):
maybe you become more angry,more toxic. Like there are a lot
of things under the unhappyrealm that could be coming up
but also the happy like, youcould still be okay and want to
make a change. And that for mewas the decision to travel full
time. My life was fine. Like Iwas living in Squamish, British
Columbia. I loved it there.
Preet Banerjee (21:23):
Where are you now?
Cait Flanders (21:25):
Well, I gave up my place so that I could travel
full time and then and then thepandemic happened and I'm
hanging at my dad's house. Oh,next. That's been me and my dad
and my my sister kind of havingto like, become much better
family in the last year and ahalf. Right having to get
really, really comfortable withhanging out together a lot.
(21:48):
Also, my dad's gone likeprobably more than half the year
for work.
Preet Banerjee (22:00):
The conversation with Kate Flanders continues in
just a minute. But first, a fewthank yous to listeners who left
comments on Apple podcasts.
Thank you to Arvind whoappreciates that the podcast
isn't just the same old spendless than you earn advice. Well
thank my guests for that. I'mlucky to get some pretty
interesting guests on the showfor sure. Que no Nick is upset
that I don't post weekly. I'mgoing to disappoint you my
(22:26):
friend I probably going to pissyou off. Do you want to tell you
this after Episode 100, which isthe next episode I think I'm
going to take a short hiatus.
Apologies, and Danny's iTunesand he likes all the episodes
but in particular, reallyenjoyed Neil Pesce riccia. Neil
was a guest on episode 79.
Fascinating guy. And if you wantto hear more from Neil, he has
(22:50):
his own podcast called currybooks, which I highly recommend.
To everyone who leaves ratingsand comments on Apple podcasts.
I appreciate them. And I do readthem all. And now back to the
conversation with Kate Flanders.
(23:21):
Now, when it comes to your beeffects of the pandemic, we had
a lot of people who had, youknow, white collar jobs working
at a computer, they were able towork from home. And now that
we're starting to enterreopening, there are a lot of
people who are, you know, kindof opting out of commuting and
(23:41):
saying, hey, it's great that theoffice is going to be open. But
I'm kind of cool with likestaying home from working. Not
everyone feels that way. Butthere are a lot of people who
are opting out of that commute.
And is this is this an exampleof something that people are
opting out of because they'venow discovered that there's a
misalignment? I think before itmay have felt like there was no
(24:05):
choice you had to have thatcommute if you wanted to not
have a mortgage that was superunaffordable, just slightly
unaffordable, but not superunaffordable. So you have to
live away from the office untilyou commute and you know, it
slowly suck the life out of youevery day, for years and then
getting those two hours back,even though it's been replaced
(24:27):
with some other you know, thingsto deal with because of the
pandemic. think people arelooking at life differently
because now they realize likehat looks like the world can
actually keep on turning. If Iwork from home from a laptop and
keep on doing what I need to dowithout having to be in the
office. Have you noticed anyother changes in people's
behaviors as a result of thepandemic and wanting to take
(24:50):
different paths in their life?
Cait Flanders (24:54):
A lot. I mean, we could joke about one which is
that divorce rates seem to go uplast year. Oh, I think so i
think so I
Preet Banerjee (25:03):
wouldn't be surprised. That's one of those
things where it could could youcould tell me the numbers. And
if they went either way, I wouldbelieve you. Because one, things
are getting so unaffordable forpeople that ending a
relationship can be preventedbecause of financial reasons or
like, Listen, we can't afford toget divorced, we're just gonna
live together in misery. Orbecause people are now forced to
(25:26):
spend more time together, andthey're reevaluating their goals
spending more time, whatever itis, I can see them being unhappy
to the point of endingrelationships.
Cait Flanders (25:34):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard of Yeah, a lot of people
who have ended relationships inthe last year, I think has been
one. people wanting to move todifferent cities, I think on the
commuting side of things,actually. And for affordability,
there's been a lot of peoplemoving to smaller towns, right,
I understanding like, well, Ican work from home that I'm
going to go somewhere where it'scheaper to live, and I have a
(25:55):
better quality of life.
Preet Banerjee (25:57):
Yeah, I mean, the main point for a lot of
people is what's the internetspeed? It displays? Like, could
I actually work from here?
Because if so I'm there. Right?
But if it's spotty, then youknow, I can't put on my list of
places I would live. That's howimportant the internet is.
Cait Flanders (26:11):
Yes. Well, and then it's been so hard,
obviously to because so manypeople are moving to small
towns, and all those prices aregoing up. But anyways, yeah, I
think that, you know, thepandemic was so hard for so many
people. And then for those thatit didn't impact too negatively
it it really was a period of abit of a reckoning and also
(26:34):
like, how would it not happen?
you're forced to slow down ifyou've never slowed down before
and sort of asked yourself,like, what am I doing? What?
I've just been going going goingwith this for so long, I didn't
really think twice, like, whatdo I want to be doing? How do I
want to spend my time, I thinkthat it's been a reckoning for a
lot of people,
Preet Banerjee (26:55):
you know, to your point. So my partner, she
was living in the UK, and thenduring the pandemic, and it
being locked down here with me,which is fantastic. It was the
longest stretch of time we'vehad together continuously, just
like 14 months. Amazing. She gota job back in the UK, and she
just left couple weeks ago. Andwhen she was you know, applying
(27:19):
because she finished herpostdoc, and she's looking to
get, you know, a tenure trackposition at, at universities
anywhere, right? early stagecareers, there's like, I'll take
a job anywhere. And so sheapplied to a university in the
UK. And she got the job. Andwell, they offered it to her,
and she was nervous about whatmy reaction was going to be. And
(27:43):
I think because partly becauseof the pandemic, and also
because I've never had a fiveyear plan like I've never I
mean, listen, neuroscience, autoracing, finance, all this other
stuff. I mean, I've never had toplan the same. And so she was
worried that I would be maybehesitant to to possibly move.
And so she was like, oh, shouldI take this job? I was like,
What are you talking about? I'vealready started looking at
(28:05):
places, I cannot wait to sort ofexplore more of the world. And I
feel that the pandemic was a bitof a wake up call in that
respect. I'm very privileged,very lucky, I haven't been
negatively affected. And I don'twant to get to the end of life
and say, yeah, never lived inanother country. And it's
interesting, you I believe youreferenced Ronnie wares book
(28:29):
regrets of the dying. Funnystory about that I was asked to
give a commencement speech at Uof T. And it was back in I think
it was 2009 2010. And I justread an article by bronnie ware,
about where she talked about.
For those who are not familiar,she wrote a book called regrets
of the dying. She's a palliativecare nurse. And she basically
collected these stories aboutwhat people expressed in their
(28:52):
last weeks of life when theyknew it was the end. And there's
a level of you'll have to muteme when you're Yeah, no worries.
Wow. I would say that the bailladies here. Typically what that
means, no problem. Oh my gosh.
(29:13):
So there's this, you know, thismoment at the end of people's
lives where they open up to adegree that maybe they never
have before, and they open up toher. And so she compiled these
lists of of these regrets. And Ihad read that article before she
wrote her book. And I was like,man, I can't wait to check out
that book. But at that article,she summarized what those top
(29:33):
five regrets were of the dying.
And those things reallyresonated with me what she said
and since that time, and thatmade it into the commencement
speech, because I was like, I'mtoo young to have any life
advice. I have to get some fromsomeone else. So I put in my
speech, but I never want to goback and think about all the
things that she said and some ofthe things that she said was
(29:56):
people you know, they all See, Iwish I'd spent more time staying
in touch with friends, you know,college buddies, whatever. No
one ever says, oh, man, I wish Ispent even more time at work,
that is not a thing that mattersin the end. No. And so that
coupled with, you know, but 15years ago, I was pretty ill
(30:18):
coupled with me being ahypochondriac, I thought, you
know, I was done. And so thatchanged my perspective on life
from that point forward. And soI feel like I opted out of the
traditional paths in life Awhile ago. But I don't know if
that was, I opted out of thingswhere I just have not opted into
some of those traditional paths.
(30:40):
Because again, I've never had afive year plan.
Cait Flanders (30:41):
Yeah, you just are the, the person who like
knew that you just knew, whereaslike, I think on on my end, I
was so influenced by my familyand the things that they had
said to me, and, and, you know,honestly, a large one being, I
remember growing up and beingtold over and over again, that
like, travel was just not reallyan option. Like I had to work
(31:07):
and save and do the things bythe place. That was the thing.
And so no one presented theoption to me of actually, you
could work, save instead forlike retirement so that you're
comfortable later in that way.
But that, like there is anoption where you can just work
to live. And that it doesn'thave to I don't have to
(31:32):
accumulate maybe physicalassets, I can accumulate money
instead. So that I'm comfortablelater in a different way that I
can live my life in whatever wayI want. Like they could have
just encouraged the savingsportion. And, and suddenly, you
know, if you're doing thatgreat, go go do whatever you
want. Yeah,
Preet Banerjee (31:54):
I think that's that's a really important point.
Because one of the things thatI've noticed with people who
have maybe trouble gettingstarted saving for whatever
future medium term long term isthat they see savings as some
kind of expense, they don'tconnect it to some kind of
future outcome. And I think whenpeople make more of that
(32:15):
connection, it gets, I wouldn'tsay it's easy, but it's a little
bit easier to sort of cope withthat reduction in spending now.
Because it's tied to some kindof future outcome that is going
to have more purpose, drivehappiness, or what have you. And
again, these can be long termgoals, they can be medium term
goals, for some people at savingup just enough so that they can
(32:39):
opt out of whatever careertrajectory that they're on,
because the reality is it doestake money to exercise some of
these choices. Yes. But alongthat vein, and tied to that, you
mentioned homeownership. We knownow that there are a lot of
people who are just they'refrozen out of homeownership in
some of the big cities inCanada, pretty much forever.
(33:01):
Like it's we've passed the pointof no return for for a large
number of people. And yet therestill exists the societal and
generational pressure to say,well, you're not an adult,
unless you're a homeowner, orwhat have you. And you talk
about how some of the hardestparts of opting out is dealing
with the pressure around you.
What's your advice to people whoare making big whether it's, you
(33:21):
know, resigning the fact thatthey're just not going to own a
house in certain cities? Ormaybe they'll never be a
homeowner, or anything else thatthey might be opting out of, or
changing paths to? What's youradvice with how they can be more
successful?
Cait Flanders (33:39):
Oh, my gosh, I mean, I could give a very short
answer. And and a longer one, Iwould say the short answer is,
most of the time, whateverpeople are saying to you is just
what they would be saying tothemselves. Meaning that, you
know, if someone's pressuringyou to do one thing, or if you
say, you're going to dosomething different, and they're
(34:00):
trying to, like, say things tostop you or to scare you from
it. It, it's just because theycouldn't imagine doing that for
themselves. There's also anaspect I think, with parents,
where parents just have this,it's just built in, they worry,
they want you to be okay. Youknow, they just do and so it's
scary to, for a parent to hearthat you're gonna do something
(34:23):
that they again, it's they justdon't get it like it's just not
something that they would havechosen for themselves. And so
they can't really imagine allthat goes into that decision
making. But yeah, it's likeoften times it has almost
nothing to do with you andeverything to do with what they
would or wouldn't do forthemselves. Whoever it is that
(34:44):
is giving you this advice orjust kind of adding this
pressure. I look at things formyself. I look at things for
myself from a place of awe,honestly, like What am I going
to feel most comfortable withhomeownership does especially
(35:05):
like I'm in BC, it's not anoption. Unless I buy with
someone, it's just not, I guessI could buy a condo just doesn't
really interest me. And so whywould I pressure myself? When
it's, I don't know, I look at itlike, what is the thing that
would actually excite me? Likewhat would feel exciting to me
(35:25):
instead is to kind of live andtravel the way that I do. But to
save for the future, so that Ibecause I'm self employed, I'm
like, I have to be able to helpmyself later in life. And but
like to like to speak to bronnieware stuff like to enjoy life
now. I it I don't know. It'slike, we are because of Canada's
(35:52):
on affordability is that pieceof what can you afford to do?
And what would actually exciteyou to save, like, savings or,
or investing in any wayincluding property? It's like,
if it doesn't excite you in someway, or if it doesn't energize
you, or feel like you're movingforward in a way that you want
to? Like, how can you do that Ididn't know how to save for
(36:14):
things until I had a goal thatexcited me to quit my job.
Unknown (36:21):
For myself,
Preet Banerjee (36:24):
I think there's a lot of people who share that
goal.
Cait Flanders (36:27):
I had to save up, you know, months and months of
living expenses and lineup workas well. And so I did not feel
comfortable quitting my jobuntil I knew I could cover
myself for you know, like sixmonths. And I had six months of
work lined up. And so I was kindof like, Listen, if I get to do
this for six months, that willbe so cool. Like, I will not
(36:48):
regret trying that for sixmonths.
Preet Banerjee (36:49):
And so how long ago was that when you left the
corporate job?
Cait Flanders (36:54):
Actually, it was I was thinking it was a to the
day, but it was the 26th ofJune, six years ago. Wow. So
2015
Preet Banerjee (37:07):
Yeah, gene regulation. So when you when you
did make that leap? What did youdid you have any idea what the
next six years would have lookedlike for you? Oh,
Cait Flanders (37:18):
my gosh, no, talk about not having a five year
plan. I had a six month plan foryou. I had work lined up for six
months. So I knew I had prettysolid income for six months. And
then I knew I had savings asbackup. And no and also to like
I that first year, I worked alot because I think you have
(37:41):
that like early self employmentfear. If you say no, all the
work is going to dry up. Whenyou learn like no, it's okay to
say no to the things that don'tfeel good. And, but stay open
and things will come and so Iworked like too much in that
first year. And then July of2016. So a year in is when I got
(38:07):
my first book deal. I got it theday before my birthday. And, and
everything. Everything changed.
Like that financially. I stillhad to freelance and do stuff
like that, because like I said,my first book, the advance was
smaller. It wasn't enough tolike live off of. But yeah,
everything about work andprojections forward was like,
(38:29):
Well, I didn't know what I wasdoing before. But let's see.
Let's see where this goes.
Preet Banerjee (38:35):
So the advance on your next book after that as
a multiple of your first advancehow much bigger was the second
advance?
Cait Flanders (38:42):
It was three times and I'm not afraid of
numbers, though. My first onewas 35,000. And my second was
100. Oh, nice. And yeah, nice.
Although, like it comes with itsown thing of I have to it's
gonna take so much longer tooutline that now. Right. So
yeah. Really? Yeah,
Preet Banerjee (39:02):
you'll go I know what you mean, I know what you
mean. And I, I've never put toomuch stock into the advances
only because, you know, theamount that a publisher takes
book and with the author gets, Imean, even if you never out earn
your advance. They're doingfine. Yes. So I was never really
(39:22):
concerned about that foradvances for a book. But I can
certainly see when you get toadvances of that level, a six
figure advance, you probablyfeel a lot more pressure, right?
Cait Flanders (39:34):
There's more pressure, but also like I was
really proud of that. There wasalso some interesting stuff for
me mostly in my head and alsobecause I know a lot of guys and
a lot of white guys who havegotten book deals. And like
their first book deals being 125real is also the Yeah, so
there's also this
Preet Banerjee (39:53):
pink celebrities are just no unknown.
Cait Flanders (39:55):
No total unknowns are people like I'm like I have
a much larger following I like Ido not know how that happened.
And so just there's this pieceof me that's like, almost like I
want more for women. Like it'snot even a like it's an I was
not ungrateful, but there's justthis piece of being like, How
fascinating that my first bookdid so well, and I can't even
(40:18):
get what those guys are gettingon their first ones. That's
fascinating. Fascinating is acharitable word.
Preet Banerjee (40:29):
Yeah, that's, uh, yeah. I think the best word.
Cait Flanders (40:35):
Yeah, more more pressure, for sure. I think at
the same time, it's like, likeyou said, publishers are doing
okay. And also, they take theirown calculated risks. Right,
like, Yeah, so? Yeah,absolutely. I worked for it. So,
Preet Banerjee (40:52):
yeah, good for you. I'm so happy for you and
your success with with writingand whatever you're going to be
doing next. And I have to thankyou, for the signed copy of your
book for Cheryl's mom, she'sover the moon about that. And I
think you just started apodcast. So this is the you
(41:13):
know, this is the part of thepodcast where you get a
commercial to talk about remote,whatever you want. Right. And if
I'm not mistaken, you juststarted a new podcast where
you're out in nature, I hear itis the most soothing podcast on
the internet. So tell us moreabout that.
Cait Flanders (41:31):
Yeah, you know, I will say that this project felt
like an opt out in the sense of,like, I've never heard anything
like this. Thinking that I justwant to go outside and share a
little bit of like, where I'mat, or something I'm learning or
(41:52):
a tool that's like helping methat week. I think that I
haven't shared publicly otherthan through the two books. It's
like I stopped blogging, I kindof stopped doing everything that
I used to do. And I haven'treally shared publicly in about
three years. And I think I'vealso like, in that time, I've
done a ton of therapy, I've justexplored so many different
(42:16):
things and traveled and donedone all these things that I'm
like, I don't think that I'velike integrated all of that and
who I am now into my work in away where were people know, came
to get to know me again, almost.
And I thought I, I, my originalthought for the podcast, and I
do believe we will be able to dothis one day was to go outside
(42:36):
with a friend and record aconversation with a friend and
not an interview. Not like, tellme all these different things.
But like, let's just likeexplore where we're at right
now.
Preet Banerjee (42:50):
Oh, I think that would be very successful. for a
couple of reasons. I don't knowwhat it is. But the more
connected online we are alsofeel the more alone people feel.
And there's so many places whereI've seen where people just, for
(43:11):
example, there are people whocontinuously watch the same
syndicated TV shows over andover and over again, because
they are people that kind offeel like in their little world
like friends, there's tons ofpeople who watch friends, many,
many times over Seinfeld,another example. Are you
familiar with the concept of MCQbangs? Oh, tell me. So these are
(43:33):
videos on YouTube, where peoplejust take a giant meal and they
eat it on video, and then talk.
And you're just kind of hangingout with them while they eat. I
think I haven't watched a lot ofthem. I've been told the concept
and these videos are insanelypopular. But that's all is I'm
thinking to myself, why the hellwhatever. Yeah, but it's a big
thing. And so I think yoursactually makes a lot more sense
(43:55):
because it's a conversationyou're exposed to the sounds of
nature, super calming thingsthat we don't take the time to
enjoy. Because the world is soelectronic and connected and we
don't have a say I would saythis is free time, like you
know, just where you would goout and just do nothing. Right
(44:15):
and you just sort of be an existin the world without checking
your phone without, you know,reading something on Twitter or
a website you just there. And soI think having that experience
with people especially live insuch a beautiful part of the
world. I think that's somethingthat would be very attractive to
people. So I'd be interested toto hear those those
conversations with friends inthe in the wild.
Cait Flanders (44:38):
Yeah. And like I said, the conversation piece of
it feels so important. Like,what does it look like to drop
into just a conversation thattwo good friends are having
where rather than an interviewwhere a person especially
because I want to do them withlike friends. So it's like I
don't want my friends to feellike they have to be on a
pedestal and be some kind ofexpert on something All right,
(45:00):
I'm just like, we haveinteresting conversations. Is it
okay if I hit record on one ofthem? And, yeah, I think it'd be
like he's like soothing orcalming. So just think there
could even be things in it uplike, think you could learn a
little bit about, you know, whatit takes to be really present in
a conversation. You can learncommunication, like there's a
(45:24):
communications aspect of it. Andyeah, but I anyways, I couldn't
do that now. And I don't reallythink I'll be able to do that
until like, 2022. And that'sokay. But I, I just kept sitting
with it being like, I want tostart something like I want to
start. And yeah, so I startedopting out the podcast, they're
(45:44):
usually typically short, like2030 minutes. So it's been a
couple that have been longer butand it's just me outside,
essentially talking to myself.
20 or 30 minutes. I think I'menjoying it on my end, both
because actually, I find itquite relaxing. But going back
to the first point, like I feellike I'm expressing myself more
fully than I have in the past.
(46:10):
And it's just nice to feelcomfortable doing that.
Preet Banerjee (46:14):
So what's the podcast called opting out,
opting out, and I guess thetitle of the book is clear, it's
adventures in opting out and youcan find that anywhere books are
sold. And Kate, I just want tosay it's a pleasure as always
chatting with you always have ablast.
Cait Flanders (46:35):
Always Always. I can't wait till we can hang out
and honestly, it'll probably bein the UK because my ultimate
goal is to get over theresometime next year as well. Like
on a more permanent basis.
Preet Banerjee (46:45):
Nice nice well, things go according to plan I
should be there probably in thespring maybe earlier because
Canadian winters are you know,pretty brutal. And UK are still
miseries but it's not. Bc winterdo, which is Yeah, it's still
doable. All right. Well, I'llsee you then. Thanks so much,
(47:06):
Kate. Thank you.
(47:28):
If you want more personalfinance content or you have
questions for me, or topicsuggestions for the podcast, you
can follow me on Twitter orInstagram and ask away. It's the
same handle in both cases atPreet Banerjee, also have two
YouTube channels, you cansubscribe to my main channel
which covers personal financeand investing topics that are
(47:49):
global in scope, and a Canadianspecific channel as well. That's
it for this episode. Thanks asalways for listening
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