July 10, 2025 • 24 mins
Motherhood has a way of pulling us in every direction-except inward. In this episode, we’re talking about what it looks like to reclaim your spirit when life feels messy, loud, and exhausting. Because what sustains us in the thick of midlife and motherhood isn’t just strategy, structure, or even sleep-it’s soul.
Robin and Nicole unpack the power of prayer, the practice of meditation, and the beauty of meeting God right where you are-without guilt, perfection, or pressure. Whether your spiritual walk feels strong, shaky, or somewhere in between, this conversation is your reminder that you don’t have to “have it all together” to connect with God. You just have to start.
If your spirit feels depleted or distant, you’re not alone and you’re not doing it wrong. This one’s an invitation to come back home to yourself.
Resources mentioned:
– Nicole’s Shameless Audacity of a Praying Mom workbook
– Robin’s 21-Day Meditation Momentum journey and YouTube
Thanks for joining us in the Messy Middle!
Ready for more real talk and soulful support? Head to motherhoodandthemessy.com for resources, freebies, and our latest episodes.
Explore the Resource Vault - packed with free tools and more, to support you in every season of motherhood: Click Here
Let’s connect on Instagram:
@robin.wellness | @heygirl_itsnicole | @motherhoodandthemessymiddle
Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review-it helps other moms find our virtual village.
This podcast is for moms navigating the real, raw, and redeeming parts of motherhood-and we’re so glad you’re here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
robin (00:00):
When was the last time you felt truly connected to
yourself to something bigger, toa deeper sense of purpose?
Well, motherhood has a way ofpulling us in every direction
except inward.
But what if the thing that helpsus show up in motherhood isn't
just strategy or sleep, though,those help too.
But spirit.
(00:20):
Welcome to Motherhood and theMessy Middle, where we're
talking about reclaiming yourspirit, rediscovering your
practices, and remembering thatyou're more than a mom.
You're a whole soul.
Welcome to motherhood and theMessy Middle where grade school
meets grown kids.
Hot flashes meet holy fire, andno topic is too messy for this
(00:43):
village.
I'm Robin.
One half of the voice behindthis podcast.
Nicole and I are two moms whoslid into each other's dms and
built a virtual village where weare inviting you in into our
honest, healing, and oftenhilarious conversations.
Help you feel not so alone.
In the beautiful chaos ofmotherhood and midlife, we talk
(01:05):
about what it really means tomother to grow, to fall apart
and rebuild spiritually,emotionally, hormonally, and
sometimes all before breakfast.
So whether you're in the thickof motherhood, facing
perimenopause, praying hard, orjust tired of pretending, you're
fine.
This face is for you.
Let's dive in.
(01:28):
Well, hey there.
Welcome back Nicole.
nicole (01:30):
Hey, how's it going?
robin (01:32):
Good.
Good.
You know this topic today, we'redigging into something that
really runs underneatheverything else, and I
frequently practice, but alsoneed a lot of reminders to touch
into and that spiritualconnection.
nicole (01:46):
Yeah.
robin (01:47):
So for me, you know, whether it's prayer, meditation,
journaling, or even.
Just learning to be being ahuman being versus a human
doing.
nicole (01:59):
Mm-hmm.
In the
robin (02:00):
middle of the noise, especially in motherhood.
And as we've discussed before,all of the beauty that can be in
the mess that is perimenopause,that is kids in the middle, all
those things.
I wanna talk in this episodeabout tending to that part.
Of ourselves that can get lostin motherhood and that's our
(02:23):
spirit.
Right.
So before we start though, Iwanna make sure that everyone
knows that Nicole and I, we'renot here to preach that.
That's not our thing.
Never.
But we are here to invite, toinvite you to this table, to
this conversation.
Reminding you that you don'thave to wait for quiet to find
peace or as I like to say, tocultivate calm amidst chaos.
(02:48):
And that whatever your spiritualpractices look like, they can
evolve with you mm-hmm.
In this season, in the nextseason.
So it's not something else thatyou have to do, or a checklist
or something you have to feelguilty about or that you're
comparing to other people.
There is no right or wrong here.
nicole (03:07):
Right.
robin (03:08):
But I wanna hear from you, Nicole.
What does it look like for you?
Do you pray?
Do you meditate?
What do those things look likefor you?
nicole (03:17):
I spend more time in prayer, but I also do meditate.
I think there's, I.
Time and place for both.
I don't think that there, it hasto be one or the other.
So.
robin (03:25):
Well, how would you define them?
Because so often for me, whenpeople approach me, they're
like, they have a lot ofmisconceptions about meditation.
So I usually spend my firstpiece of teaching holistic
weight loss and wellness inorder to cultivate that inner
fitness before outer fixes oflike, well, let's get rid of
those misconceptions.
Not only in diet culture, butyeah, in meditation.
So how do you define thedifferences though, between
(03:48):
meditation and prayer?
nicole (03:49):
the difference to me is when I'm praying I am opening
myself and having a conversationwith the Lord.
I'm, I create a visual andwhether that's, I remember once
my mom saying to me like, itfeels like I'm just like curled
up and sitting in my dad's lap,or one time a visual that
someone had painted for me thatwas really beautiful was like.
(04:12):
Which I think can actually beused in meditation too, but just
like I'm sitting on a swing andI'm talking to the person next
to me and it's casual, but I'mopening up and it we're growing
in like this deeper intimacy ofgetting to know one another
because I think prayer is, whileI am talking, I'm also
listening.
And I feel like there can be anexchange sometimes.
(04:33):
Now, don't get me wrong,sometimes the Lord's quiet, and
there's not always, but I'mopening myself up to that
meditation.
I feel like, for me, and I feellike you're gonna be able to
give a much better definition ofthis, but for me, meditation is
stillness.
Centering, grounding, creatingcalm amongst the chaos, like
when my nervous system feels outof whack.
(04:56):
Now, prayer can get me theretoo, but sometimes.
Meditating can take me into adeeper prayer.
robin (05:02):
Mm.
nicole (05:02):
So just being able to slow my mind, remove
distractions, focus on justsimply breathing or.
You touched on it, on the,another, another episode about
your daughter, like when you'recalming someone down, like just
calming myself down to even beable to be in the presence of
(05:22):
the Lord.
Sometimes you can piggybackthem, but I think they each have
different purposes.
robin (05:27):
I love that.
And you know, I just wannaemphasize what we started with
was saying we're not gonnapreach.
And even when I teach, my goalis to empower people to ignite
their fullest growth potential,which means you create your own
meaning and sense making forwhatever it is for you.
And there is no right or wrong.
(05:48):
Yeah.
It's just when people are comingto the table and they don't know
where to begin, that's when ithelps that you can have someone
to guide you in some differentdefinitions that meet you where
you're at.
And um, you know, one of theareas that I really love doing
for people is meeting them wherethey are.
And so.
A lot of times people think thatmeditation means that your brain
(06:09):
has to be absent of thought, andthat is an extreme misconception
that maybe the goal for somelike advanced meditation
practitioners.
But you know, I've beenmeditating for a long time and
having consistent practice andthat still for me is not my
goal.
My goal is creating spacebetween the thoughts
nicole (06:31):
so
robin (06:31):
that I can respond.
Versus react.
nicole (06:35):
That's good.
Yeah.
robin (06:36):
Not only during the meditation, but the benefits
extend far beyond that practice.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, I compare it sooften to the physical.
Body.
And when you do a bicep curl,that's gonna benefit you when
you're going and you're liftinga booster seat for your child.
nicole (06:53):
Mm-hmm.
robin (06:54):
And that's what meditation does.
It helps you build that innerfitness so that when you are in
and amidst the chaos, you havethis underpinning of calm that
you can mm-hmm.
Touch into.
And what I also say to people isthat when, for me, when I
meditate, it's.
It's more listening and reallythe goal is the observation of
(07:17):
thought.
Instead of letting the thoughtdrive the car, you are driving
the car and you might have somenoisy kids in the back, but
you're still the one who istaking the vehicle in the
direction that you wanna go.
A lot of visuals that I use formeditation to describe it would
be like laying on a hill andobserving the clouds.
Mm-hmm.
So there's, there's, you're justwatching them pass.
(07:40):
By, and those clouds can becomeyour thoughts or a train car and
just watching them pass by sothat you're not attaching
yourself to it.
And it connects with somethingelse that we've said before
around the judgements that areso pervasive in our culture.
Right.
But especially in motherhood.
So that power of meditating,observing your thoughts, then
you are detaching from gettingcaught and swept up in them.
(08:03):
Mm-hmm.
So that then you can identifythose judgements and respond
again versus react.
Mm-hmm.
To then shift into where youwanna go and you know, from, how
do you, go ahead.
nicole (08:14):
Well, I was gonna say, like I, I'm a mom in the messy
middle, and I'm struggling tofind the space for that.
robin (08:20):
Mm-hmm.
nicole (08:21):
What is your recommendation?
To start finding the space toeven attempt
robin (08:28):
Yeah.
nicole (08:29):
That time.
robin (08:29):
Well, the first, uh, piece is that if you are like me
and you have an anxious mind, wecall it the monkey mind.
Uh, in, in meditation where it'sjust like the monkey's jumping
on the bed and all the thoughtsswirling.
Do not start with silentmeditation.
Go with a guided meditation.
Um, my preference is always aguided meditation because then I
(08:50):
have something that I'm reallyfocusing on and it's helping me
mm-hmm.
To both observe the thoughts,but be guided in that.
And then the second thing that Iuse as an analogy for, um,
remembering that it's more aboutfrequency than it is duration.
So, so often we fall into thattrap where it's all or nothing,
(09:11):
and people think, well, if I'mnot going to meditate for 20
minutes in the morning and 20minutes in the evening every
day, then why am I doing it?
And what I would say is, well,any little bit helps, first of
all.
Second of all.
Mm-hmm.
I live in Minnesota, also knownas Minno snow ta, often in
winter.
So the analogy of there's afresh snow outside and you
(09:36):
decide to go for an hour walk.
So you go out your back door,your front door, whatever it is,
and you go out and you come backand you look at the footprints
in the snow, and there's just acouple of them there.
Now, what if there's anothersnowfall?
And this time you have a puppy?
And so you're gonna take thatpuppy out and you're gonna come
back in just for a minute, andthen the puppy needs to go out,
(09:59):
and then you're gonna come backin, and then the puppy needs to
go out and you're gonna comeback in.
What happens when you look atthose footprints?
They're, they're, the footprintsare more, they always
nicole (10:07):
overthink these things.
robin (10:08):
The footprints are really fermented in the snow.
Like they are solid.
You can see them.
You have like a solid path thatyou've, that you've built.
nicole (10:17):
Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
You like can take the samesteps.
And then you can take freshsteps.
Okay.
I'm tracking.
Tracking, right.
So when you go
robin (10:22):
for an hour out, right, you, and if that's the hour
meditation, it's not connectingwith that stillness in your
brain as well as if you wouldhave shorter little trips.
Mm-hmm.
More frequently.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the difference ofthat.
It's frequency versus duration.
(10:43):
Okay.
So meditating.
Even one minute a day mm-hmm.
Is more powerful than doing onehour once a month.
nicole (10:52):
yes.
I think that's powerful.
I talk about that in my prayerguide about how it's better
because when we think we're notdoing prayer, right?
Yeah.
Than people are like off, wetend to put it off.
I'm not gonna do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna do it.
And yeah, similarly I talk aboutlike just showing up in how you
are, whatever form, whateveryour prayer looks like is good
enough and better than not doingit at all.
(11:14):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Same for meditation.
I had a friend recently whotheir doctor recommended that
they meditate, so I now havebecome the person that people
reach out to.
I never thought I'd be thatperson, but she was like, what
should I do?
And I learned so much aboutmeditation from you, and I was
like, well, just don't.
I told her, I told her the samething.
I said, don't start with silent.
(11:35):
'cause that's awful.
robin (11:36):
Yeah, it did.
nicole (11:39):
Seriously, start with five minutes, and don't get mad
that you don't feel like you didit right.
Just keep doing it.
robin (11:45):
Mm-hmm.
nicole (11:46):
It gets easier.
robin (11:47):
It does.
So I think that's a goodanalogy.
And the thing would be forprayer, you know, for me, prayer
I say prayer is like me talkingto God.
And then in meditation I'm ableto create space where I, I do
get some divine downloads as Ilike to say.
Yeah.
Um, but it can be uncomfortablewhen you're feel like, I'm not
(12:08):
doing this right.
What am I.
Who am I even praying to?
You know, I, mm-hmm.
I've struggled in religion.
I've been in a significantjourney, and I've had to heal a
lot of religious trauma.
Mm-hmm.
In order for me to identify whatGod is and.
To be honest, I'm a recoveringaddict, and when I stepped into,
(12:31):
my first part of that journeywas with Alcoholics Anonymous.
I had a really wonderful programand sponsor who were like, you
get to define what God lookslike and feels like for you.
And that connects with what yousaid in the beginning.
I, I never thought of avisualization for prayer.
nicole (12:52):
Hmm.
robin (12:53):
And.
Recently somebody had sharedwith me that I should wrap
myself in a shroud offorgiveness.
What's a, what's a shroud?
It's like a, a like a, like,just like a, an energy, like a
shawl.
Okay.
Like a a sometimes, I don't evenknow how to define.
This is why maybe my husbandshould be on this podcast
(13:15):
because he's like a walkingdictionary and my daughter is
like an advanced reader and sheasks me things and I'm like, I
don't really know.
I just know what it is becauseas much as I do, I know a lot of
things and I have a lot, I havea big vocabulary and a lot of
different things I can connect.
I am.
Terrible at remembering dates.
Like recalling, yeah.
(13:36):
Dates and, mm-hmm.
Like specific.
You know, quotes and things likethat.
I'm like, I connect concepts, sosometimes I'm not even sure how
to define something and I justlike, go with it.
And I think like, okay,everybody, you know, a shroud,
right?
Like a shroud.
nicole (13:51):
Well, and I feel like I don't understand things often
enough that like, the farther Iget into adulthood, I'm not
afraid to just ask anymore.
Even if it, it's a common thingI'm like.
I don't know what that is foreverybody else probably
robin (14:01):
does, but I don't know what that is.
I mean, 25% of the time when youask me what a word is that I'm
saying, it might just be madeup.
It might just be made up.
So who, who knows?
I feel like it was a good
nicole (14:12):
definition of what you just said though.
I get it.
That totally makes
robin (14:14):
sense.
And covering you in it.
And I'm right.
I'm a person that visualizationreally it, it helps with that.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm gonna take that.
Piece of what you said ofimagining curling up like in my
father's lap, and maybe evenwith that shroud of forgiveness
or compassion, whatever it mightbe.
And that is just such apowerful, peaceful place to feel
(14:39):
held and safe to be able to, tocommune
nicole (14:45):
well.
Because I think that it's easyto get stuck on, God is this
really big, like looming.
Nerve wracking judging man,creature, not creature man.
And it gets intimidating, whichI mean, in a way he is holy and
divine and worthy of, the thronein which he sits, which I honor,
(15:08):
but that doesn't mean that, uh,he doesn't want me to come to
him.
And so how do I, how do I try toput him in a box that I can
conceptualize that feels morerelational?
Because when I think of this,oh, it feels nerve wracking.
It's too
robin (15:22):
big.
Yeah.
nicole (15:23):
Yeah.
It's too big.
So I have to put it in a boxwhere it feels like, okay,
Which, I mean, you can't put Godin a box.
I'm not saying put God in a box,but I am saying sake of No, but
define sake in
robin (15:31):
a way that makes sense for you.
nicole (15:32):
Right.
And so that it makes it easierfor me to come to him
robin (15:36):
and connect.
Yeah.
nicole (15:37):
Right.
So, that's helped.
Something I talk about in theprayer book too is.
Take when we feel overwhelmedand it feels like how do we, how
do I even, I don't even knowwhat to say to you.
Because I remember as a mom inthe depths of the darkness of
seasons of motherhood, it's toomuch of a mess.
I can't even begin to start topray because I am so much of a
mess.
And if I start to put words tothe feelings, I will crumble
(15:59):
because I'm barely holding ittogether.
And by identifying each emotion.
That feels like so much work andit, it will take apart the
pieces that everything, I'mholding it together and if I
start taking it apart, I can'thold it together anymore.
Hmm.
It feels way too difficult.
So in, in the prayer workbook Italk about like taking that
entire mess.
(16:20):
Don't identify each of them yetand literally hand it to the
Lord.
Mm.
Here you go.
Yeah.
Like visualizing, surrender.
Take it from me.
God.
Here
robin (16:28):
you go.
Yeah,
nicole (16:29):
I and, and then I talk about like, maybe the Lord will
just hold it for you.
Mm-hmm.
And not ask you to do anythingelse.
Maybe he'll just create a safespace and he'll hold it for you.
Or maybe he'll start to put allthe pieces back in the right
places.
Mm-hmm.
So that you can be held while hefixes some things.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe he gives it back toyou in better condition than you
gave it to him.
(16:49):
And there's all, you can takethat in however many metaphors
you want to, but just thatvisualization of.
Like what you were saying, wehave to have it all together.
Like we can go for one minute,one second.
It doesn't have to be thispicture perfect.
There's no right way to do it.
There's no wrong way to do it.
Doing it is the most importantthing.
(17:10):
Enough.
Yeah.
robin (17:11):
Circling back to meditation, a lot of times
people think you have to sitcross-legged and be, you know,
with your hands in these.
Crazy.
They're called mudras when youput your hands in different
positions.
Okay.
And you know, I can tell you thescience behind a lot of those
different things.
Yeah.
'cause it relates even toacupuncture and different, um,
you know, chiropractic thingslike how we move our body,
(17:32):
right.
Like body, spirit, energy.
Like it all flows.
And, um, you know, I resisted alot of that for a long time
until I started.
Learning about all of thesedifferent areas.
And then again, my brainconnects them and sees that.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm not intimidated, um,you know, when I have somebody
who comes to me as a Christianand thinks that meditation, I've
(17:54):
had this happen multiple times.
Mm-hmm.
That meditation, no doubt, it's,it's a religion and it's, it's
only for Buddhists and, or, youknow, I'm a reiki master teacher
mm-hmm.
And I've had people approach meand say, no, that's witchcraft.
I'm like, okay.
Well I, that's okay.
I'm working with the HolySpirit, but mm-hmm.
You know, we all have differentnames for it, or in, in some
they call it prana and some it'scheat and some it's key.
(18:17):
Um, but we all make sense in ourown way.
And meditation does not have tobe in that crisscross position
with your hands in crazypositions.
Right.
You could do it walking, right.
You could lay down.
Mm-hmm.
You could sit in a chair howeveryou feel most comfortable.
It's just about creating thatspace.
(18:38):
To be able to observe yourthoughts.
Right, right.
And then the same thing withprayer.
You don't have to have yourhands together or be following a
specific format.
One of the most powerful prayersthat I have ever been given and
I use with my daughter when sheis lost on what to say, two
words.
(18:58):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Lord, thank you.
Mm-hmm.
God, thank you.
nicole (19:05):
Yeah.
robin (19:05):
Just the rest of it.
If you can't even put thosewords to it, you're just turning
it over and having thatsurrender and that, that trust
in, uh, the belief, right.
That is, that is the faith as afoundation for
nicole (19:19):
Right.
robin (19:20):
Getting, it's just
nicole (19:20):
like with the, your meditation explanation, like
with prayer, it's just.
It's, we have this invisibleblock that stops us, but stops
us.
But if you just do a little,just even if it's a simple
gratitude, thank you.
And then you slowly will find,you'll start building on it.
Or the, if you're getting usedto, not being in a formal prayer
and just being moreconversational, it takes
(19:43):
practice.
It's just like you were saying,do it for a minute.
Do it for 30 seconds.
Start small.
Okay, Lord, seriously, here wego.
I've had the realistconversations.
But I'm like, okay, go ahead.
Seriously, I.
Really bold.
Really bold, honest.
'cause he already knows.
But it takes like you'rebuilding, like you said,
building that foundation of onestep at a time.
(20:04):
Here we go, Lord.
robin (20:06):
Well, and your prayer guide is directly quoted from
the word of the Bible with theshameless audacity of a praying
mom.
Shameless, audacity, praying.
Yes.
Like
nicole (20:15):
yeah, there was, I was it.
Honestly, I am 39 years old.
I have born and raised in aChristian home.
I've been a Christian my wholelife, and I had a time when I
walked away from the Lord andthen I came back, but only this
last year or two.
I read in the Bible where itsays.
He tells that he's talking aboutlike the Lord's Prayer and how
(20:35):
to pray, and it literally saysin Luke to pray with shameless
audacity.
And I was like, what The Lord'sliterally telling us to pray
with shameless audacity.
robin (20:46):
You sent me a Marco, I will never forget.
I don't remember what day thatwas, but I was like, what?
And then I asked you, where isit?
And then I got out my Bible.
Yeah, like shameless.
It literally
nicole (20:55):
says it, and it's different in like two different
versions, but it's, but it saysshameless audacity.
Okay.
Okay.
I don't know how I missed thatbefore, but I like it now.
robin (21:06):
Well, and you, you receive it when you need to.
nicole (21:09):
And,
robin (21:09):
you know, I wanna wrap up this conversation, um, but also
plant the seed that there's somuch more to unpack here,
because so much, one of thethings that I value about you is
that you've accepted me for howI show up and how I define
myself and, um, you know, myrelationship with God and what
that looks like in the journey.
And I, I feel.
(21:30):
That a lot of people are afraidto have those conversations
because of not just, um,perception of judgment, but the
real reality that there arerisks of being ostracized in
certain circles and, um, it's animportant conversation to have.
So I wanna just put a pin inthat, continue it, um, in
another.
In another episode.
(21:50):
Yeah.
In the future.
But I wanna remind everyone thatyou can pray with shameless
audacity, but what you need toknow most of all, is you don't
have to have it figured out.
No, you can just start, yeah,just start listening inward and
whether it's dabbling in prayeror continuing a practice, or the
same thing with meditation.
(22:11):
It, it's just.
For you.
It counts.
It all counts to help you regainyour spirit and show up stronger
in motherhood and the messymiddle.
So if this episode stirredsomething in you, we hope that
you're gonna share it withanother mom who's ready to
reconnect with herself.
(22:31):
And if you haven't yet, we'dlove for you to scroll down and
leave us a quick rating orreview.
It really, really helps us to.
Reach other moms, and it alsoreminds us that this space
matters for us to continuecommitting to creating this
space.
So you're also gonna find theprayer guide that Nicole has put
(22:52):
together and a prayer workbookthat we mentioned, um, in
today's episode, linked in theshow notes along with, um,
Robin's Wild Nest YouTubechannel that has a plethora.
I go with my big words again of,um, free resources for you,
including meditations, but thenalso meditation momentum, which
is a 21 day meditation journeythat supports building a
(23:16):
meditation practice, especiallyif you are new to that practice.
But we're here to support you,prayer, meditation, building
your virtual village however youneed in whatever way that you
show up and in whatever way thatyou want to.
Pray, meditate, journal,whatever it is.
We are so glad that you're herewith us.
(23:37):
Until next time, the invitationto just find a moment to connect
and recharge your spirit.
See you later.
nicole (23:45):
Bye guys.
Hey, before you go, we've gotsomething just for you.
We created the motherhood andthe messy middle resource vault.
It's a growing library ofsupport that's just for you.
So inside you're gonna findtools from both Nicole and my
work plus resources that wemention right here on the
podcast.
It's free, it's sent straight toyour inbox, and it's always
evolving just like you.
So take what you need, leave therest.
(24:06):
You never know when you're gonnaneed it or when your group chat
might thank you for it.
So use the link in the shownotes or head to motherhood and
the messy middle.com to getaccess and welcome to your
virtual village.
When was the last time you felt truly connected to
yourself to something bigger, toa deeper sense of purpose?
Well, motherhood has a way ofpulling us in every direction
except inward.
But what if the thing that helpsus show up in motherhood isn't
just strategy or sleep, though,those help too.
But spirit.
(00:20):
Welcome to Motherhood and theMessy Middle, where we're
talking about reclaiming yourspirit, rediscovering your
practices, and remembering thatyou're more than a mom.
You're a whole soul.
Welcome to motherhood and theMessy Middle where grade school
meets grown kids.
Hot flashes meet holy fire, andno topic is too messy for this
(00:43):
village.
I'm Robin.
One half of the voice behindthis podcast.
Nicole and I are two moms whoslid into each other's dms and
built a virtual village where weare inviting you in into our
honest, healing, and oftenhilarious conversations.
Help you feel not so alone.
In the beautiful chaos ofmotherhood and midlife, we talk
(01:05):
about what it really means tomother to grow, to fall apart
and rebuild spiritually,emotionally, hormonally, and
sometimes all before breakfast.
So whether you're in the thickof motherhood, facing
perimenopause, praying hard, orjust tired of pretending, you're
fine.
This face is for you.
Let's dive in.
(01:28):
Well, hey there.
Welcome back Nicole.
nicole (01:30):
Hey, how's it going?
robin (01:32):
Good.
Good.
You know this topic today, we'redigging into something that
really runs underneatheverything else, and I
frequently practice, but alsoneed a lot of reminders to touch
into and that spiritualconnection.
nicole (01:46):
Yeah.
robin (01:47):
So for me, you know, whether it's prayer, meditation,
journaling, or even.
Just learning to be being ahuman being versus a human
doing.
nicole (01:59):
Mm-hmm.
In the
robin (02:00):
middle of the noise, especially in motherhood.
And as we've discussed before,all of the beauty that can be in
the mess that is perimenopause,that is kids in the middle, all
those things.
I wanna talk in this episodeabout tending to that part.
Of ourselves that can get lostin motherhood and that's our
(02:23):
spirit.
Right.
So before we start though, Iwanna make sure that everyone
knows that Nicole and I, we'renot here to preach that.
That's not our thing.
Never.
But we are here to invite, toinvite you to this table, to
this conversation.
Reminding you that you don'thave to wait for quiet to find
peace or as I like to say, tocultivate calm amidst chaos.
(02:48):
And that whatever your spiritualpractices look like, they can
evolve with you mm-hmm.
In this season, in the nextseason.
So it's not something else thatyou have to do, or a checklist
or something you have to feelguilty about or that you're
comparing to other people.
There is no right or wrong here.
nicole (03:07):
Right.
robin (03:08):
But I wanna hear from you, Nicole.
What does it look like for you?
Do you pray?
Do you meditate?
What do those things look likefor you?
nicole (03:17):
I spend more time in prayer, but I also do meditate.
I think there's, I.
Time and place for both.
I don't think that there, it hasto be one or the other.
So.
robin (03:25):
Well, how would you define them?
Because so often for me, whenpeople approach me, they're
like, they have a lot ofmisconceptions about meditation.
So I usually spend my firstpiece of teaching holistic
weight loss and wellness inorder to cultivate that inner
fitness before outer fixes oflike, well, let's get rid of
those misconceptions.
Not only in diet culture, butyeah, in meditation.
So how do you define thedifferences though, between
(03:48):
meditation and prayer?
nicole (03:49):
the difference to me is when I'm praying I am opening
myself and having a conversationwith the Lord.
I'm, I create a visual andwhether that's, I remember once
my mom saying to me like, itfeels like I'm just like curled
up and sitting in my dad's lap,or one time a visual that
someone had painted for me thatwas really beautiful was like.
(04:12):
Which I think can actually beused in meditation too, but just
like I'm sitting on a swing andI'm talking to the person next
to me and it's casual, but I'mopening up and it we're growing
in like this deeper intimacy ofgetting to know one another
because I think prayer is, whileI am talking, I'm also
listening.
And I feel like there can be anexchange sometimes.
(04:33):
Now, don't get me wrong,sometimes the Lord's quiet, and
there's not always, but I'mopening myself up to that
meditation.
I feel like, for me, and I feellike you're gonna be able to
give a much better definition ofthis, but for me, meditation is
stillness.
Centering, grounding, creatingcalm amongst the chaos, like
when my nervous system feels outof whack.
(04:56):
Now, prayer can get me theretoo, but sometimes.
Meditating can take me into adeeper prayer.
robin (05:02):
Mm.
nicole (05:02):
So just being able to slow my mind, remove
distractions, focus on justsimply breathing or.
You touched on it, on the,another, another episode about
your daughter, like when you'recalming someone down, like just
calming myself down to even beable to be in the presence of
(05:22):
the Lord.
Sometimes you can piggybackthem, but I think they each have
different purposes.
robin (05:27):
I love that.
And you know, I just wannaemphasize what we started with
was saying we're not gonnapreach.
And even when I teach, my goalis to empower people to ignite
their fullest growth potential,which means you create your own
meaning and sense making forwhatever it is for you.
And there is no right or wrong.
(05:48):
Yeah.
It's just when people are comingto the table and they don't know
where to begin, that's when ithelps that you can have someone
to guide you in some differentdefinitions that meet you where
you're at.
And um, you know, one of theareas that I really love doing
for people is meeting them wherethey are.
And so.
A lot of times people think thatmeditation means that your brain
(06:09):
has to be absent of thought, andthat is an extreme misconception
that maybe the goal for somelike advanced meditation
practitioners.
But you know, I've beenmeditating for a long time and
having consistent practice andthat still for me is not my
goal.
My goal is creating spacebetween the thoughts
nicole (06:31):
so
robin (06:31):
that I can respond.
Versus react.
nicole (06:35):
That's good.
Yeah.
robin (06:36):
Not only during the meditation, but the benefits
extend far beyond that practice.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, I compare it sooften to the physical.
Body.
And when you do a bicep curl,that's gonna benefit you when
you're going and you're liftinga booster seat for your child.
nicole (06:53):
Mm-hmm.
robin (06:54):
And that's what meditation does.
It helps you build that innerfitness so that when you are in
and amidst the chaos, you havethis underpinning of calm that
you can mm-hmm.
Touch into.
And what I also say to people isthat when, for me, when I
meditate, it's.
It's more listening and reallythe goal is the observation of
(07:17):
thought.
Instead of letting the thoughtdrive the car, you are driving
the car and you might have somenoisy kids in the back, but
you're still the one who istaking the vehicle in the
direction that you wanna go.
A lot of visuals that I use formeditation to describe it would
be like laying on a hill andobserving the clouds.
Mm-hmm.
So there's, there's, you're justwatching them pass.
(07:40):
By, and those clouds can becomeyour thoughts or a train car and
just watching them pass by sothat you're not attaching
yourself to it.
And it connects with somethingelse that we've said before
around the judgements that areso pervasive in our culture.
Right.
But especially in motherhood.
So that power of meditating,observing your thoughts, then
you are detaching from gettingcaught and swept up in them.
(08:03):
Mm-hmm.
So that then you can identifythose judgements and respond
again versus react.
Mm-hmm.
To then shift into where youwanna go and you know, from, how
do you, go ahead.
nicole (08:14):
Well, I was gonna say, like I, I'm a mom in the messy
middle, and I'm struggling tofind the space for that.
robin (08:20):
Mm-hmm.
nicole (08:21):
What is your recommendation?
To start finding the space toeven attempt
robin (08:28):
Yeah.
nicole (08:29):
That time.
robin (08:29):
Well, the first, uh, piece is that if you are like me
and you have an anxious mind, wecall it the monkey mind.
Uh, in, in meditation where it'sjust like the monkey's jumping
on the bed and all the thoughtsswirling.
Do not start with silentmeditation.
Go with a guided meditation.
Um, my preference is always aguided meditation because then I
(08:50):
have something that I'm reallyfocusing on and it's helping me
mm-hmm.
To both observe the thoughts,but be guided in that.
And then the second thing that Iuse as an analogy for, um,
remembering that it's more aboutfrequency than it is duration.
So, so often we fall into thattrap where it's all or nothing,
(09:11):
and people think, well, if I'mnot going to meditate for 20
minutes in the morning and 20minutes in the evening every
day, then why am I doing it?
And what I would say is, well,any little bit helps, first of
all.
Second of all.
Mm-hmm.
I live in Minnesota, also knownas Minno snow ta, often in
winter.
So the analogy of there's afresh snow outside and you
(09:36):
decide to go for an hour walk.
So you go out your back door,your front door, whatever it is,
and you go out and you come backand you look at the footprints
in the snow, and there's just acouple of them there.
Now, what if there's anothersnowfall?
And this time you have a puppy?
And so you're gonna take thatpuppy out and you're gonna come
back in just for a minute, andthen the puppy needs to go out,
(09:59):
and then you're gonna come backin, and then the puppy needs to
go out and you're gonna comeback in.
What happens when you look atthose footprints?
They're, they're, the footprintsare more, they always
nicole (10:07):
overthink these things.
robin (10:08):
The footprints are really fermented in the snow.
Like they are solid.
You can see them.
You have like a solid path thatyou've, that you've built.
nicole (10:17):
Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
You like can take the samesteps.
And then you can take freshsteps.
Okay.
I'm tracking.
Tracking, right.
So when you go
robin (10:22):
for an hour out, right, you, and if that's the hour
meditation, it's not connectingwith that stillness in your
brain as well as if you wouldhave shorter little trips.
Mm-hmm.
More frequently.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the difference ofthat.
It's frequency versus duration.
(10:43):
Okay.
So meditating.
Even one minute a day mm-hmm.
Is more powerful than doing onehour once a month.
nicole (10:52):
yes.
I think that's powerful.
I talk about that in my prayerguide about how it's better
because when we think we're notdoing prayer, right?
Yeah.
Than people are like off, wetend to put it off.
I'm not gonna do it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna do it.
And yeah, similarly I talk aboutlike just showing up in how you
are, whatever form, whateveryour prayer looks like is good
enough and better than not doingit at all.
(11:14):
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Same for meditation.
I had a friend recently whotheir doctor recommended that
they meditate, so I now havebecome the person that people
reach out to.
I never thought I'd be thatperson, but she was like, what
should I do?
And I learned so much aboutmeditation from you, and I was
like, well, just don't.
I told her, I told her the samething.
I said, don't start with silent.
(11:35):
'cause that's awful.
robin (11:36):
Yeah, it did.
nicole (11:39):
Seriously, start with five minutes, and don't get mad
that you don't feel like you didit right.
Just keep doing it.
robin (11:45):
Mm-hmm.
nicole (11:46):
It gets easier.
robin (11:47):
It does.
So I think that's a goodanalogy.
And the thing would be forprayer, you know, for me, prayer
I say prayer is like me talkingto God.
And then in meditation I'm ableto create space where I, I do
get some divine downloads as Ilike to say.
Yeah.
Um, but it can be uncomfortablewhen you're feel like, I'm not
(12:08):
doing this right.
What am I.
Who am I even praying to?
You know, I, mm-hmm.
I've struggled in religion.
I've been in a significantjourney, and I've had to heal a
lot of religious trauma.
Mm-hmm.
In order for me to identify whatGod is and.
To be honest, I'm a recoveringaddict, and when I stepped into,
(12:31):
my first part of that journeywas with Alcoholics Anonymous.
I had a really wonderful programand sponsor who were like, you
get to define what God lookslike and feels like for you.
And that connects with what yousaid in the beginning.
I, I never thought of avisualization for prayer.
nicole (12:52):
Hmm.
robin (12:53):
And.
Recently somebody had sharedwith me that I should wrap
myself in a shroud offorgiveness.
What's a, what's a shroud?
It's like a, a like a, like,just like a, an energy, like a
shawl.
Okay.
Like a a sometimes, I don't evenknow how to define.
This is why maybe my husbandshould be on this podcast
(13:15):
because he's like a walkingdictionary and my daughter is
like an advanced reader and sheasks me things and I'm like, I
don't really know.
I just know what it is becauseas much as I do, I know a lot of
things and I have a lot, I havea big vocabulary and a lot of
different things I can connect.
I am.
Terrible at remembering dates.
Like recalling, yeah.
(13:36):
Dates and, mm-hmm.
Like specific.
You know, quotes and things likethat.
I'm like, I connect concepts, sosometimes I'm not even sure how
to define something and I justlike, go with it.
And I think like, okay,everybody, you know, a shroud,
right?
Like a shroud.
nicole (13:51):
Well, and I feel like I don't understand things often
enough that like, the farther Iget into adulthood, I'm not
afraid to just ask anymore.
Even if it, it's a common thingI'm like.
I don't know what that is foreverybody else probably
robin (14:01):
does, but I don't know what that is.
I mean, 25% of the time when youask me what a word is that I'm
saying, it might just be madeup.
It might just be made up.
So who, who knows?
I feel like it was a good
nicole (14:12):
definition of what you just said though.
I get it.
That totally makes
robin (14:14):
sense.
And covering you in it.
And I'm right.
I'm a person that visualizationreally it, it helps with that.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm gonna take that.
Piece of what you said ofimagining curling up like in my
father's lap, and maybe evenwith that shroud of forgiveness
or compassion, whatever it mightbe.
And that is just such apowerful, peaceful place to feel
(14:39):
held and safe to be able to, tocommune
nicole (14:45):
well.
Because I think that it's easyto get stuck on, God is this
really big, like looming.
Nerve wracking judging man,creature, not creature man.
And it gets intimidating, whichI mean, in a way he is holy and
divine and worthy of, the thronein which he sits, which I honor,
(15:08):
but that doesn't mean that, uh,he doesn't want me to come to
him.
And so how do I, how do I try toput him in a box that I can
conceptualize that feels morerelational?
Because when I think of this,oh, it feels nerve wracking.
It's too
robin (15:22):
big.
Yeah.
nicole (15:23):
Yeah.
It's too big.
So I have to put it in a boxwhere it feels like, okay,
Which, I mean, you can't put Godin a box.
I'm not saying put God in a box,but I am saying sake of No, but
define sake in
robin (15:31):
a way that makes sense for you.
nicole (15:32):
Right.
And so that it makes it easierfor me to come to him
robin (15:36):
and connect.
Yeah.
nicole (15:37):
Right.
So, that's helped.
Something I talk about in theprayer book too is.
Take when we feel overwhelmedand it feels like how do we, how
do I even, I don't even knowwhat to say to you.
Because I remember as a mom inthe depths of the darkness of
seasons of motherhood, it's toomuch of a mess.
I can't even begin to start topray because I am so much of a
mess.
And if I start to put words tothe feelings, I will crumble
(15:59):
because I'm barely holding ittogether.
And by identifying each emotion.
That feels like so much work andit, it will take apart the
pieces that everything, I'mholding it together and if I
start taking it apart, I can'thold it together anymore.
Hmm.
It feels way too difficult.
So in, in the prayer workbook Italk about like taking that
entire mess.
(16:20):
Don't identify each of them yetand literally hand it to the
Lord.
Mm.
Here you go.
Yeah.
Like visualizing, surrender.
Take it from me.
God.
Here
robin (16:28):
you go.
Yeah,
nicole (16:29):
I and, and then I talk about like, maybe the Lord will
just hold it for you.
Mm-hmm.
And not ask you to do anythingelse.
Maybe he'll just create a safespace and he'll hold it for you.
Or maybe he'll start to put allthe pieces back in the right
places.
Mm-hmm.
So that you can be held while hefixes some things.
Mm-hmm.
And maybe he gives it back toyou in better condition than you
gave it to him.
(16:49):
And there's all, you can takethat in however many metaphors
you want to, but just thatvisualization of.
Like what you were saying, wehave to have it all together.
Like we can go for one minute,one second.
It doesn't have to be thispicture perfect.
There's no right way to do it.
There's no wrong way to do it.
Doing it is the most importantthing.
(17:10):
Enough.
Yeah.
robin (17:11):
Circling back to meditation, a lot of times
people think you have to sitcross-legged and be, you know,
with your hands in these.
Crazy.
They're called mudras when youput your hands in different
positions.
Okay.
And you know, I can tell you thescience behind a lot of those
different things.
Yeah.
'cause it relates even toacupuncture and different, um,
you know, chiropractic thingslike how we move our body,
(17:32):
right.
Like body, spirit, energy.
Like it all flows.
And, um, you know, I resisted alot of that for a long time
until I started.
Learning about all of thesedifferent areas.
And then again, my brainconnects them and sees that.
Mm-hmm.
And so I'm not intimidated, um,you know, when I have somebody
who comes to me as a Christianand thinks that meditation, I've
(17:54):
had this happen multiple times.
Mm-hmm.
That meditation, no doubt, it's,it's a religion and it's, it's
only for Buddhists and, or, youknow, I'm a reiki master teacher
mm-hmm.
And I've had people approach meand say, no, that's witchcraft.
I'm like, okay.
Well I, that's okay.
I'm working with the HolySpirit, but mm-hmm.
You know, we all have differentnames for it, or in, in some
they call it prana and some it'scheat and some it's key.
(18:17):
Um, but we all make sense in ourown way.
And meditation does not have tobe in that crisscross position
with your hands in crazypositions.
Right.
You could do it walking, right.
You could lay down.
Mm-hmm.
You could sit in a chair howeveryou feel most comfortable.
It's just about creating thatspace.
(18:38):
To be able to observe yourthoughts.
Right, right.
And then the same thing withprayer.
You don't have to have yourhands together or be following a
specific format.
One of the most powerful prayersthat I have ever been given and
I use with my daughter when sheis lost on what to say, two
words.
(18:58):
Thank you.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Lord, thank you.
Mm-hmm.
God, thank you.
nicole (19:05):
Yeah.
robin (19:05):
Just the rest of it.
If you can't even put thosewords to it, you're just turning
it over and having thatsurrender and that, that trust
in, uh, the belief, right.
That is, that is the faith as afoundation for
nicole (19:19):
Right.
robin (19:20):
Getting, it's just
nicole (19:20):
like with the, your meditation explanation, like
with prayer, it's just.
It's, we have this invisibleblock that stops us, but stops
us.
But if you just do a little,just even if it's a simple
gratitude, thank you.
And then you slowly will find,you'll start building on it.
Or the, if you're getting usedto, not being in a formal prayer
and just being moreconversational, it takes
(19:43):
practice.
It's just like you were saying,do it for a minute.
Do it for 30 seconds.
Start small.
Okay, Lord, seriously, here wego.
I've had the realistconversations.
But I'm like, okay, go ahead.
Seriously, I.
Really bold.
Really bold, honest.
'cause he already knows.
But it takes like you'rebuilding, like you said,
building that foundation of onestep at a time.
(20:04):
Here we go, Lord.
robin (20:06):
Well, and your prayer guide is directly quoted from
the word of the Bible with theshameless audacity of a praying
mom.
Shameless, audacity, praying.
Yes.
Like
nicole (20:15):
yeah, there was, I was it.
Honestly, I am 39 years old.
I have born and raised in aChristian home.
I've been a Christian my wholelife, and I had a time when I
walked away from the Lord andthen I came back, but only this
last year or two.
I read in the Bible where itsays.
He tells that he's talking aboutlike the Lord's Prayer and how
(20:35):
to pray, and it literally saysin Luke to pray with shameless
audacity.
And I was like, what The Lord'sliterally telling us to pray
with shameless audacity.
robin (20:46):
You sent me a Marco, I will never forget.
I don't remember what day thatwas, but I was like, what?
And then I asked you, where isit?
And then I got out my Bible.
Yeah, like shameless.
It literally
nicole (20:55):
says it, and it's different in like two different
versions, but it's, but it saysshameless audacity.
Okay.
Okay.
I don't know how I missed thatbefore, but I like it now.
robin (21:06):
Well, and you, you receive it when you need to.
nicole (21:09):
And,
robin (21:09):
you know, I wanna wrap up this conversation, um, but also
plant the seed that there's somuch more to unpack here,
because so much, one of thethings that I value about you is
that you've accepted me for howI show up and how I define
myself and, um, you know, myrelationship with God and what
that looks like in the journey.
And I, I feel.
(21:30):
That a lot of people are afraidto have those conversations
because of not just, um,perception of judgment, but the
real reality that there arerisks of being ostracized in
certain circles and, um, it's animportant conversation to have.
So I wanna just put a pin inthat, continue it, um, in
another.
In another episode.
(21:50):
Yeah.
In the future.
But I wanna remind everyone thatyou can pray with shameless
audacity, but what you need toknow most of all, is you don't
have to have it figured out.
No, you can just start, yeah,just start listening inward and
whether it's dabbling in prayeror continuing a practice, or the
same thing with meditation.
(22:11):
It, it's just.
For you.
It counts.
It all counts to help you regainyour spirit and show up stronger
in motherhood and the messymiddle.
So if this episode stirredsomething in you, we hope that
you're gonna share it withanother mom who's ready to
reconnect with herself.
(22:31):
And if you haven't yet, we'dlove for you to scroll down and
leave us a quick rating orreview.
It really, really helps us to.
Reach other moms, and it alsoreminds us that this space
matters for us to continuecommitting to creating this
space.
So you're also gonna find theprayer guide that Nicole has put
(22:52):
together and a prayer workbookthat we mentioned, um, in
today's episode, linked in theshow notes along with, um,
Robin's Wild Nest YouTubechannel that has a plethora.
I go with my big words again of,um, free resources for you,
including meditations, but thenalso meditation momentum, which
is a 21 day meditation journeythat supports building a
(23:16):
meditation practice, especiallyif you are new to that practice.
But we're here to support you,prayer, meditation, building
your virtual village however youneed in whatever way that you
show up and in whatever way thatyou want to.
Pray, meditate, journal,whatever it is.
We are so glad that you're herewith us.
(23:37):
Until next time, the invitationto just find a moment to connect
and recharge your spirit.
See you later.
nicole (23:45):
Bye guys.
Hey, before you go, we've gotsomething just for you.
We created the motherhood andthe messy middle resource vault.
It's a growing library ofsupport that's just for you.
So inside you're gonna findtools from both Nicole and my
work plus resources that wemention right here on the
podcast.
It's free, it's sent straight toyour inbox, and it's always
evolving just like you.
So take what you need, leave therest.
(24:06):
You never know when you're gonnaneed it or when your group chat
might thank you for it.
So use the link in the shownotes or head to motherhood and
the messy middle.com to getaccess and welcome to your
virtual village.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!