July 15, 2025 • 25 mins
Do you miss a season that’s already slipped away-when your kids were smaller, life was slower, or you felt more like you? In this tender episode, we talk about the bittersweet ache of motherhood transitions and how to hold space for both grief and gratitude.
Nicole shares what it’s like to parent four kids across four life stages, and Robin reflects on her most sacred season of motherhood. Together, we explore what it means to honor the past while still embracing the beauty (and mess) of now.
You’re allowed to miss what was and still love where you are.
Thanks for joining us in the Messy Middle!
Ready for more real talk and soulful support? Head to motherhoodandthemessy.com for resources, freebies, and our latest episodes.
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@robin.wellness | @heygirl_itsnicole | @motherhoodandthemessymiddle
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This podcast is for moms navigating the real, raw, and redeeming parts of motherhood-and we’re so glad you’re here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
robin (00:02):
Do you ever find yourself missing a past version of your
life, even while trying to begrateful for where you are now?
Maybe it was a season when yourbody felt stronger or your house
was fuller, or your kids weresmaller, but now you're here.
In a new season and it'sbeautiful and hard all at once.
(00:23):
Welcome to Motherhood and theMessy Middle, where we're
talking about the tug of warbetween honoring the past and
embracing the present even whenit feels messy and honestly,
it's just all moving a littlebit too fast.
Welcome to motherhood and theMessy Middle where grade school
(00:44):
meets grown kids.
Hot flashes meet holy fire, andno topic is too messy for this
village.
I'm Robin.
One half of the voice behindthis podcast.
Nicole and I are two moms whoslid into each other's dms and
built a virtual village where weare inviting you in into our
honest, healing, and oftenhilarious conversations.
(01:06):
Help you feel not so alone.
In the beautiful chaos ofmotherhood and midlife, we talk
about what it really means tomother to grow, to fall apart
and rebuild spiritually,emotionally, hormonally, and
sometimes all before breakfast.
So whether you're in the thickof motherhood, facing
perimenopause, praying hard, orjust tired of pretending, you're
(01:28):
fine.
This face is for you.
Let's dive in.
Oof.
Nicole, this episode topic.
Ooh.
It's one that talk about themessy middle.
I feel like I'm a mess.
I'm constantly wrestling withYeah, time is just moving so
(01:48):
fast.
Yeah.
So fast.
nicole (01:52):
I
robin (01:52):
know.
I feel like I can barely catchmy breath to be present in one
season and enjoy it inmotherhood, and then it blink,
it's gone.
And now I have a whole new setof circumstances that I'm having
to learn and navigate.
nicole (02:07):
Do you feel like you, like there's something that
happens The, the tightness in mychest that happens in
motherhood?
Mm.
When I think about.
How fast the time is going andhave I done enough and did I
miss out on the good and, oh no,I'm feeling it, but is there's
like something like nothing elsehas ever compared to like that.
(02:29):
Uh, like nausea.
I don't know what it is.
And I assume other mothers feelthe same way.
Well, it's your heart chakra
robin (02:35):
first of all.
So if you wanna talk about,about your energy centers, I
mean, it's, it's literally, um,so for those of you that don't
know, I am a Reiki masterteacher, but part of my
specialty is merging all of thiswoo woo stuff with science.
So we're soul meets.
Science and there, um, are nowdifferent ways that we can
actually measure the, the energyfields that we have.
(02:55):
But we have these energy centersthat run along the central line
of our body.
And the center of those energycenters is our heart chakra.
And um, if you hear chakra,that's just us kind of
butchering it in the UnitedStates, but it's actually chakra
in Sanskrit, which means wheel.
And so it, all of these energycenters are, are like wheels.
(03:16):
Um, and they're, they're,they're spheres or cones you can
think of them as, and they'reconstantly moving.
And they're moving energy.
'cause emotion means energy in,yeah, emotion.
And your heart chakra.
When I say to people.
You know what it feels like foryour heart to break and your
heart to burst.
That's very different than yourheart organ.
(03:39):
It's an energy center, butliterally our language defines
those.
Or when we say we have a frog inour throat, that's the throat
chakra.
But what you're describing whenyou say that, and then I start
feeling it too, it's thatempathic part of me.
Mm-hmm.
That when I'm connected, Ireally start feeling it in my
body.
And yes, there is this tightnessand it's.
(04:00):
I wonder if part of it is likethis holding on because we're
trying to hold on and that'slike, there are no, actually,
there are no bad emotions.
It's just when they get stuckand trapped.
But we're, we're trying to holdon to these moments.
nicole (04:14):
Yeah.
And
robin (04:15):
you know, I have one child, so I, I only know the
perspective that I have, but.
It feels to me like I never getto repeat anything.
And I'm curious for you withmultiple children, like how do
the seasons even, how do youwrap your head around what
season you're in?
Because the kids are all indifferent,
nicole (04:35):
they're all in different seasons, places.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause Yeah, this season ofparenthood, they all, we have.
Our young adult's.
21.
We've got our teenager, 16,another teenager, 13, and then
our pre-teen 11.
They're all very different.
Well, last year,
robin (04:54):
last school year, you had an elementary.
Oh, yeah.
Middle a high school and anadult.
You can't, I mean, if you, youknow, suddenly have a preschool
baby or something.
Yeah.
Uh, that I, that would be theonly way to extend even more,
but that's just, that's wild.
nicole (05:09):
Yes.
It really was.
Very different.
And I do think there issomething to be said about what
you said about having one kid.
So you don't have a, I don'tthink you, what?
I don't know what the wording,what I use.
Not a do over, but like, ifthere's just even
robin (05:24):
like, I don't know the school, right.
So my daughter's gonna be infifth grade next year and I'm
already feeling that tightnessbecause of the transition of
middle school that will come.
Yeah.
And I have a shorter time periodto be able to navigate.
The, the routines and the, theteacher, like all of those
right.
Things that come and I takethose things very seriously
'cause I'm a little bit of anintense parent.
(05:46):
I don't know if you know thatabout me.
I was actually on the schoolboard for a hot minute and it
was to serve my entire district,but it also was because I wanted
to get in those inner workings.
Yeah.
To be able to.
Have an impact.
Mm-hmm.
Be listened to and know that Icould show up and mm-hmm.
And'cause my daughter doesn'thave a sibling.
(06:06):
Right.
That's paving the way and she'snot paving the way for someone
else.
Um.
nicole (06:11):
I think there is something to be said about that.
Like you're paving her way.
robin (06:15):
Mm.
Yeah.
But there also, that leads to,there's this, the whole idea of
a helicopter parent, and Ihonestly would define myself as
one, and I don't have anegative.
Really?
Yeah.
I don't have a negativeconnotation around it because
for me.
I'm a helicopter parent that I'mhovering around and yet I'm
hovering around.
(06:35):
She still is on the ground doingher own work.
There's a difference.
There's um, something called alawnmower parent, and those are
parents who are literally likemowing the path.
They're on the ground with theirkid and they're mowing the path.
I do not sounds exhaust.
I do not do that.
Yes.
I mean, even being a helicopterparent's really exhausting.
But
nicole (06:55):
being a parent in general is exhausting.
You can't imagine take anymore.
I mean, I
robin (06:59):
do feel really bad for my daughter's teachers'cause I show
up and I'm like, hi.
So I still have a five 12 mathlicense and a K 12 principal
license.
I was on the school board.
I don't actually say all ofthose things, but I do tell'em
in a, in a joking but seriousway.
I'm like.
I'm a helicopter parent and I'mreally intense.
Nice to meet you.
(07:19):
You know, I give'em a fair, fairwarning at least.
But I say, I'm
nicole (07:22):
sure they appreciate that.
Like your self-awareness andyou're like, no, sugarcoating
it.
I think that's greats.
robin (07:27):
No sugarcoating it.
That's great.
But back to these, the seasonalpiece.
So paint, paint me a word,picture.
How do you even grasp whatseason you're in with this
giggle of children that youhave?
nicole (07:39):
I think there it is.
Easier in a way because the onehas already paved the way.
Mm-hmm.
So with my oldest and mydaughter, her story and her
journey was so vastly differentthan the boys that while she did
pave away, it's very far offfrom the path that the boys are
(08:00):
taking.
So it's kind of like having,doing that twice.
I did it once with the oldest,but we went this direction.
Now we're doing it with thisoldest and we're going this
direction.
But then the two others justkind of follow.
So that makes it easier in thisseason, and it helps me enjoy it
more too, because they all arevery individual and our
(08:25):
parenting style is notuniversal.
It's very specific to each childbecause our children are wildly
all.
Different.
And so they need differentparenting approaches.
But it does give me peacebecause when the older two went
through things, it was like, oh,there's all this fear and the
unknowns and ugh.
But with the younger two, I'mlike, eh, it'll work itself out.
(08:47):
Yeah., I've seen it work itselfout.
I can, I'm just trying totrusting the process and I trust
myself.
So I think that like the seasonthat I'm in now, even though
they're all, I feel a little bitmore scattered.
Because the age difference feelsbigger, almost in a sense with a
high schooler and a enteringmiddle schooler, they're,
they're the 11-year-old and the16-year-old feel much farther
(09:10):
apart than they were when theywere 10 and you know, six or 10
and five, they feel muchdifferent now.
Um.
But I think this is my favoritepart of parenting because I
really feel like I'm settled inkind of who I am as a parent.
Even though he's pretty muchalready grown and I already have
a grown kid, I feel like I'mjust now settled in parenthood
(09:32):
and trusting myself and theprocess and that things will
work it out.
I've learned more about.
Just their brains and theirdevelopment.
We were literally at the grocerystore this morning.
My husband was telling me aboutan interaction he had with our
16-year-old, and my responsewas, eh, it's just'cause his
brain is so tired from growingthat he can't literally follow
(09:53):
instructions more than twothings.
'cause his brain's distracted.
I just have learned how theirbrains are working and not
working at certain seasons.
Yeah.
Because developmentally that'snormal.
And it doesn't get asfrustrating.
So I don't know.
This is my favorite season, eventhough it's so different.
What about you?
What would you say, like yourfavorite season so far is?
(10:17):
So this
robin (10:17):
is, this is a very unique to my life answer.
But it was, and I can even namethe months.
So it wasn't a season of liketoddler or any of that.
Mm-hmm.
It was actually from, um,mid-January of 2021.
Mm-hmm.
Through May of 2021.
(10:38):
Okay.
And for context, we were stillin the pandemic, right.
It was the first school year ofthe full pandemic, and my
daughter was in kindergarten andI did online kindergarten with
her because of a lot ofdifferent factors.
But the number one factor wasaround my dad.
(10:59):
Uh, he had early onset dementia,and my stepmom had said, if she
goes to kindergarten, we aren'tgonna be able to see you.
Because they were high risk.
Yeah.
And she needed to be the, youknow.
Yeah, primary, primarycaretaker, all of that.
nicole (11:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
robin (11:14):
And I had so much.
Anxiety and angst around whatwas going on in the world, but
also in our world.
'cause we were able to put herinto, um, in-person school, but
only at the semester.
So we had to make that decision.
nicole (11:29):
Oh,
robin (11:29):
and it's kind of like what you said about just.
Knowing, you know, when they'refirst going through something,
it's all of that fear.
Like that's what anxiety is,right?
Anxiety is when you're fearingthe future.
Depression, some people say, iswhen you're like lamenting the
past.
And so the only piece is reallyin the present moment and I was
able to be present during that.
(11:49):
January to May because thedecision was made.
Mm-hmm.
She was gonna finish outkindergarten.
The world was quieter.
Mm-hmm.
I had, um, a set rituals androutines like, I don't know if
you can imagine this, but thehelicopter mom like, flew her
helicopter around ourneighborhood, found other
parents that were mm-hmm.
Doing the kindergarten, onlinehomeschool thing.
(12:10):
Mm-hmm.
So we met every day for recessin our neighborhood.
Oh, I love
nicole (12:14):
that.
robin (12:15):
Every Monday we went to my parents' house and we would
do like an art lesson thereevery Friday.
We went to my friend's house whowas also doing homeschool with
her daughter, and our kids arebesties since they were little
babies.
So it was just this really sweetseason of life.
Mm-hmm.
Where things were slower and Iwas able to be simpler.
I was able to be, yeah.
(12:35):
Yeah.
And.
And I had and really use yourgifts, everyone.
Yes.
nicole (12:39):
Yeah.
robin (12:40):
That was also the season for me where, um, I was really,
you know, in some very deephealing leading up to that, um,
because my motherhood was sotumultuous with healing trauma
and then trauma that I reallyinflicted inadvertently and
unintentionally, but upon myselfwith mental health and addiction
struggles.
(13:00):
Mm-hmm.
During that time, I was reallycoming together with my healing
and mm-hmm.
That was actually when I startedmeditating every day.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't start by saying,I'm gonna meditate every day.
I started the way that I teachpeople, I said, I'm gonna
experiment.
'cause that's part of a growthmindset with how, how much I
could, how often I could dothis.
And so that then I got, um, Ibecame certified and as a
(13:24):
meditation teacher, and I setthe date for my reiki training,
which was in the summer of 2021.
So it was just a really.
Good spot for me to be present.
I was really strong in myspiritual health.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then also what wasfollowing was my physical and
mental health and Right.
(13:45):
So that's what I'm trying to getback to right now.
Right.
Um, I've been in another seasonof different struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, the second year of griefafter losing my dad has been.
Harder.
Then the first year, and then asyou know, and I've been sharing,
(14:06):
especially on my YouTubechannel, I've been dealing with
a melanoma, a skin cancerdiagnosis, just stage zero.
So it hasn't spread and two ofthe spots are actually pre
melanoma.
But I've had to have excisionsthat Right.
Have been really.
Really hard on me.
And one of the excisions, youknow, it didn't heal for, I mean
(14:28):
it still is healing, but it wasreally an intense journey for 18
weeks.
So, you know, you mentioned likemy self-awareness and I do lead
with that and it is a blessing,but it is also a challenge.
nicole (14:40):
Mm-hmm.
robin (14:41):
Because it's hard for me to feel settled when I'm aware
of so many things that areunsettled.
nicole (14:46):
Hmm.
robin (14:46):
So that's what I'm trying to work towards and why I lean
on.
My village and mm-hmm.
Like our friendship because youare just so steady to me and
confident in motherhood, like,and you're also confident that
you're gonna mess up.
nicole (15:06):
Yeah.
I've learned a lot throughfailure and you know, we talk
about, we talked a lot aboutexpectations and I was kind of
thinking about our conversationthat we had a couple episodes
ago about expectations and I.
When I married my husband.
Right.
We talked about how when we gotmarried, my stepdaughter was
five, and when she came, Ididn't ever expect her to live
(15:26):
with us full time because shehad a mom.
Yeah.
And when she did come to livewith us full time at the age of
10, it was through a very tragicevent.
And so then I was living outthis unexpected expectation.
Where it was this double-edgedsword.
I was happy to have her with usall the time, but I wouldn't
(15:49):
have wished the traumatic eventon her.
Yeah.
Like I wouldn't, if that meantthat I only saw her half the
time that she didn't have to gothrough that, I would've
preferred that because no onewants their child to experience
that.
But I think that's reallybecause my biological boys, I
have to add context that I don'tin life, refer to them as
biological and non-biological.
Yeah.
But for context of conversationof our digital village.
(16:12):
I just tread lightly with thatbecause it's really important to
me to not have those definitionson our blended family.
But for context here, when I hadmy biological boys, they were so
little, and then when we got.
Full-time custody.
It really did affect a lot of mymotherhood journey because I
fumbled a lot'cause I didn'tknow what to do with trauma.
(16:35):
I didn't know, I had notexperienced trauma.
I didn't know how to parent andin a trauma-informed way.
And we were nav we were stillnavigating these traumatic
things even after she came tolive with us.
And so it.
I have become confident in mymotherhood because I've learned
as I've gone that like I'm gonnamess up.
(16:55):
Yeah.
And the reality is the soonerthat I can just own that and if
I need to apologize and make itright.
I have apologized to my daughterendless amounts of times, and I
will probably have to continueto do that because we're always
entering into a new season ofrelationship as she's navigating
who she is as an adult.
Not.
That I'm trying to get it wrong,but I'm, I'm a human being and
(17:16):
sometimes I mess up or coming tothem and humbly saying like, how
can I support you in this?
I don't feel like I did a greatjob at supporting you in this.
What feels supportive to you?
Because what feels supportive toyou and what feels supportive to
me is different, and I feel likeI've just.
Learned so much through failure.
robin (17:37):
You know, my husband is a project manager and one of the
things that he has taught methrough his job is that the goal
is to fail fast.
Mm-hmm.
When he works with teams.
And, you know, words are justplaceholders for us to be able
to have shared experiences.
So I want to honor you inwanting to define a name,
(17:58):
especially, you know, for ourlisteners in the way that you
speak about your blended familyand your boys.
And I feel the same when I, youknow, my angel mom and then my,
my stepmom.
Mm-hmm.
And there, there's, there arepieces around that.
But the beauty of not wanting tofail, but accepting that right
part of being human is that weare not perfect.
(18:20):
Mm-hmm.
And once you surrender that, youknow, our past episode was about
prayer and connection andknowing that in our humanness we
are going to have faults and thequicker that we can, I've been
using the, the, the idea of.
You know, if I wanna be inalignment here and I can
(18:40):
identify that I'm out ofalignment, sometimes that takes
me reflecting and looking backseveral years to see mm-hmm what
it was that I can learn fromsometimes.
It takes me last week.
Sometimes it's within the daywhen I'm doing some reflection.
My goal is to continue tominimize that amount of time.
nicole (19:01):
Mm-hmm.
That's good.
So that I can
robin (19:02):
course correct more quickly to show up.
And that's how I, I talk aboutalignment.
Right.
And for me that that's reallywhat that.
Alignment is and getting alignedwith whatever season that we're,
that I'm in.
Um,
nicole (19:17):
yeah.
Well and I think that helps too.
Like when we're looking atmourning the past seasons and
letting go, but still holdingon.
'cause we still are in thisseason of motherhood and we're
bracing for the next season ofmotherhood.
That when the sooner we cancourse correct and forgive
ourselves too, right.
We have to, we have to do that.
If it's part of when we lookback, we think, did I do it
right?
(19:38):
Did I waste time?
Mm-hmm.
Did I miss too much?
There's a lot of eyes in there.
Mm-hmm.
And I think we have to forgiveourselves and release ourselves
from holding onto that shame ifthere is any around it.
Um.
So that you're in alignment andyou're ready and excited for the
next season.
Because if we're learning as wego, then we're becoming more in
(19:58):
alignment and course correctingto really embrace the next
season, which really isexciting.
Yeah, but also scary'cause itfeels like we're getting closer
to the end of the journey orit's just part of the process.
Mourning and and embracing.
But I think that's really goodwhen we're talking about seasons
of motherhood.
That really help.
robin (20:18):
Yeah.
And just even the whole idea,you're not being held back by
those low vibration, the lowenergy of shame.
Of guilt of mm-hmm.
Even regret, like, it's not thatthey're not okay to exist,
right.
It's just we need to movethrough them.
So I wanna wrap up today'sepisode by asking you this
question.
(20:38):
Nicole, what would you say to amom who is grieving.
A season that is no more anddoesn't know how to move forward
in this one.
nicole (20:49):
Hmm.
robin (20:50):
That she's in.
What would you say?
nicole (20:52):
I would say peeling back the layers to find the root of
why you're grieving it.
Because then you can honor itand feel that feeling.
Don't put it off.
Like Robin's talked about thatbefore in other episodes, like
feeling it.
That is important, honoringthose feelings, because then
you're not just pushing it asideto come up in another.
(21:13):
Like that feeling's still gonnacome up one way or another.
Take the pause, find out theroot, honor it, and then you, it
helps you understand how tonavigate differently in the new
season because if it issomething that you wanna do
differently or honor.
Bring into the new season, thenyou're bringing it into the new
season in a new way, not in ashameful, regretful way, but in
(21:36):
a, okay, this is how I wannashape things so that this can be
achieved.
Does that make sense?
robin (21:42):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
What would you say?
I would say, listen to Nicole.
I think the way that you put itwas really powerful and, uh, an
addition that I would add on,and it's something that I am,
um.
Really working to exercise in mylife.
(22:02):
And, you know, I, I leadretreats and I, I do different,
even online events where Icreate rituals and spaces to
really symbolize transitions,including when you gather with
people.
And, um, it's actually been.
Sister Gabe, who's a Franciscansister, who I work with really
(22:24):
closely, who has helped me tosee the power and not only the
power in using ritual and tyingit into faith, but also that
we're meant to do that.
Like that's part of, you know,we're building this virtual
village.
But when Ancestrally speaking,when we were in villages.
(22:46):
We were having ceremonies arounddifferent rites of passage,
which is true, which includedseasons, and that doesn't mean
that we need to get out and doanything grandiose.
That's, again, there's a lot ofmisconceptions around what
certain things need to looklike, but it could even just be.
Journaling about it.
Mm-hmm.
Or praying about it, or lightinga candle and making, saying a
(23:10):
gratitude for what was andmaking a wish for what could be
and blowing the candle out.
It's any little move that reallyrec not only recognizes, but.
Uh, in a way dignifies theexperience.
Yeah.
That's good words.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That one, that one just camefrom, that was, that was a
divine, divine tap right there,ladies, divine downloads, like,
(23:31):
yeah.
nicole (23:31):
Mm-hmm.
robin (23:32):
Real time.
Yeah.
That was good.
Real time.
Well, you know, the big thinghere is as we wrap up today,
you're allowed to miss what wasmm-hmm.
You are allowed to feel whateveryou need to feel while still
choosing to embrace what is.
Mm-hmm.
You are spacious enough andpowerful enough.
For all of that, especially whenyou're surrounded with a
(23:54):
village, to remind you of thereality of this journey that
we're on in motherhood.
And every season of your lifeand motherhood is gonna hold
beauty and challenges, and theyall mm-hmm.
Matter.
You don't have to figure it out.
You just have to keep showingup.
Mm-hmm.
Hopefully with a little bit oftenderness, maybe some grace and
(24:15):
a little less pressure,hopefully to love every moment,
because we're not gonna likesome of them.
nicole (24:20):
Mm-hmm.
robin (24:21):
So if today's conversation stirred something
in you, we ask that you send itto a friend.
Because they might be sitting ina similar season or a messy
place of the middle, not knowinghow to grieve what was and move
on to what is.
So let her know that she's notalone in the longing for what
was or the work to embrace itand.
If this podcast has been a placeof comfort for you, we'd really
(24:44):
love your support to leave aquick rating or review.
It helps us reach more moms whoneed this virtual village.
Nicole and I, we're gonna beright here with you in whatever
season that you're in.
Until next time, just breathedeep and know you're not alone
in this messy middle.
nicole (25:01):
Bye guys.
Hey, before you go, we've gotsomething just for you.
We created the motherhood andthe messy middle resource vault.
It's a growing library ofsupport that's just for you.
So inside you're gonna findtools from both Nicole and my
work plus resources that wemention right here on the
podcast.
It's free, it's sent straight toyour inbox, and it's always
evolving just like you.
So take what you need, leave therest.
(25:22):
You never know when you're gonnaneed it or when your group chat
might thank you for it.
So use the link in the shownotes or head to motherhood and
the messy middle.com to getaccess and welcome to your
virtual village.
Do you ever find yourself missing a past version of your
life, even while trying to begrateful for where you are now?
Maybe it was a season when yourbody felt stronger or your house
was fuller, or your kids weresmaller, but now you're here.
In a new season and it'sbeautiful and hard all at once.
(00:23):
Welcome to Motherhood and theMessy Middle, where we're
talking about the tug of warbetween honoring the past and
embracing the present even whenit feels messy and honestly,
it's just all moving a littlebit too fast.
Welcome to motherhood and theMessy Middle where grade school
(00:44):
meets grown kids.
Hot flashes meet holy fire, andno topic is too messy for this
village.
I'm Robin.
One half of the voice behindthis podcast.
Nicole and I are two moms whoslid into each other's dms and
built a virtual village where weare inviting you in into our
honest, healing, and oftenhilarious conversations.
(01:06):
Help you feel not so alone.
In the beautiful chaos ofmotherhood and midlife, we talk
about what it really means tomother to grow, to fall apart
and rebuild spiritually,emotionally, hormonally, and
sometimes all before breakfast.
So whether you're in the thickof motherhood, facing
perimenopause, praying hard, orjust tired of pretending, you're
(01:28):
fine.
This face is for you.
Let's dive in.
Oof.
Nicole, this episode topic.
Ooh.
It's one that talk about themessy middle.
I feel like I'm a mess.
I'm constantly wrestling withYeah, time is just moving so
(01:48):
fast.
Yeah.
So fast.
nicole (01:52):
I
robin (01:52):
know.
I feel like I can barely catchmy breath to be present in one
season and enjoy it inmotherhood, and then it blink,
it's gone.
And now I have a whole new setof circumstances that I'm having
to learn and navigate.
nicole (02:07):
Do you feel like you, like there's something that
happens The, the tightness in mychest that happens in
motherhood?
Mm.
When I think about.
How fast the time is going andhave I done enough and did I
miss out on the good and, oh no,I'm feeling it, but is there's
like something like nothing elsehas ever compared to like that.
(02:29):
Uh, like nausea.
I don't know what it is.
And I assume other mothers feelthe same way.
Well, it's your heart chakra
robin (02:35):
first of all.
So if you wanna talk about,about your energy centers, I
mean, it's, it's literally, um,so for those of you that don't
know, I am a Reiki masterteacher, but part of my
specialty is merging all of thiswoo woo stuff with science.
So we're soul meets.
Science and there, um, are nowdifferent ways that we can
actually measure the, the energyfields that we have.
(02:55):
But we have these energy centersthat run along the central line
of our body.
And the center of those energycenters is our heart chakra.
And um, if you hear chakra,that's just us kind of
butchering it in the UnitedStates, but it's actually chakra
in Sanskrit, which means wheel.
And so it, all of these energycenters are, are like wheels.
(03:16):
Um, and they're, they're,they're spheres or cones you can
think of them as, and they'reconstantly moving.
And they're moving energy.
'cause emotion means energy in,yeah, emotion.
And your heart chakra.
When I say to people.
You know what it feels like foryour heart to break and your
heart to burst.
That's very different than yourheart organ.
(03:39):
It's an energy center, butliterally our language defines
those.
Or when we say we have a frog inour throat, that's the throat
chakra.
But what you're describing whenyou say that, and then I start
feeling it too, it's thatempathic part of me.
Mm-hmm.
That when I'm connected, Ireally start feeling it in my
body.
And yes, there is this tightnessand it's.
(04:00):
I wonder if part of it is likethis holding on because we're
trying to hold on and that'slike, there are no, actually,
there are no bad emotions.
It's just when they get stuckand trapped.
But we're, we're trying to holdon to these moments.
nicole (04:14):
Yeah.
And
robin (04:15):
you know, I have one child, so I, I only know the
perspective that I have, but.
It feels to me like I never getto repeat anything.
And I'm curious for you withmultiple children, like how do
the seasons even, how do youwrap your head around what
season you're in?
Because the kids are all indifferent,
nicole (04:35):
they're all in different seasons, places.
Yeah.
Yeah.
'cause Yeah, this season ofparenthood, they all, we have.
Our young adult's.
21.
We've got our teenager, 16,another teenager, 13, and then
our pre-teen 11.
They're all very different.
Well, last year,
robin (04:54):
last school year, you had an elementary.
Oh, yeah.
Middle a high school and anadult.
You can't, I mean, if you, youknow, suddenly have a preschool
baby or something.
Yeah.
Uh, that I, that would be theonly way to extend even more,
but that's just, that's wild.
nicole (05:09):
Yes.
It really was.
Very different.
And I do think there issomething to be said about what
you said about having one kid.
So you don't have a, I don'tthink you, what?
I don't know what the wording,what I use.
Not a do over, but like, ifthere's just even
robin (05:24):
like, I don't know the school, right.
So my daughter's gonna be infifth grade next year and I'm
already feeling that tightnessbecause of the transition of
middle school that will come.
Yeah.
And I have a shorter time periodto be able to navigate.
The, the routines and the, theteacher, like all of those
right.
Things that come and I takethose things very seriously
'cause I'm a little bit of anintense parent.
(05:46):
I don't know if you know thatabout me.
I was actually on the schoolboard for a hot minute and it
was to serve my entire district,but it also was because I wanted
to get in those inner workings.
Yeah.
To be able to.
Have an impact.
Mm-hmm.
Be listened to and know that Icould show up and mm-hmm.
And'cause my daughter doesn'thave a sibling.
(06:06):
Right.
That's paving the way and she'snot paving the way for someone
else.
Um.
nicole (06:11):
I think there is something to be said about that.
Like you're paving her way.
robin (06:15):
Mm.
Yeah.
But there also, that leads to,there's this, the whole idea of
a helicopter parent, and Ihonestly would define myself as
one, and I don't have anegative.
Really?
Yeah.
I don't have a negativeconnotation around it because
for me.
I'm a helicopter parent that I'mhovering around and yet I'm
hovering around.
(06:35):
She still is on the ground doingher own work.
There's a difference.
There's um, something called alawnmower parent, and those are
parents who are literally likemowing the path.
They're on the ground with theirkid and they're mowing the path.
I do not sounds exhaust.
I do not do that.
Yes.
I mean, even being a helicopterparent's really exhausting.
But
nicole (06:55):
being a parent in general is exhausting.
You can't imagine take anymore.
I mean, I
robin (06:59):
do feel really bad for my daughter's teachers'cause I show
up and I'm like, hi.
So I still have a five 12 mathlicense and a K 12 principal
license.
I was on the school board.
I don't actually say all ofthose things, but I do tell'em
in a, in a joking but seriousway.
I'm like.
I'm a helicopter parent and I'mreally intense.
Nice to meet you.
(07:19):
You know, I give'em a fair, fairwarning at least.
But I say, I'm
nicole (07:22):
sure they appreciate that.
Like your self-awareness andyou're like, no, sugarcoating
it.
I think that's greats.
robin (07:27):
No sugarcoating it.
That's great.
But back to these, the seasonalpiece.
So paint, paint me a word,picture.
How do you even grasp whatseason you're in with this
giggle of children that youhave?
nicole (07:39):
I think there it is.
Easier in a way because the onehas already paved the way.
Mm-hmm.
So with my oldest and mydaughter, her story and her
journey was so vastly differentthan the boys that while she did
pave away, it's very far offfrom the path that the boys are
(08:00):
taking.
So it's kind of like having,doing that twice.
I did it once with the oldest,but we went this direction.
Now we're doing it with thisoldest and we're going this
direction.
But then the two others justkind of follow.
So that makes it easier in thisseason, and it helps me enjoy it
more too, because they all arevery individual and our
(08:25):
parenting style is notuniversal.
It's very specific to each childbecause our children are wildly
all.
Different.
And so they need differentparenting approaches.
But it does give me peacebecause when the older two went
through things, it was like, oh,there's all this fear and the
unknowns and ugh.
But with the younger two, I'mlike, eh, it'll work itself out.
(08:47):
Yeah., I've seen it work itselfout.
I can, I'm just trying totrusting the process and I trust
myself.
So I think that like the seasonthat I'm in now, even though
they're all, I feel a little bitmore scattered.
Because the age difference feelsbigger, almost in a sense with a
high schooler and a enteringmiddle schooler, they're,
they're the 11-year-old and the16-year-old feel much farther
(09:10):
apart than they were when theywere 10 and you know, six or 10
and five, they feel muchdifferent now.
Um.
But I think this is my favoritepart of parenting because I
really feel like I'm settled inkind of who I am as a parent.
Even though he's pretty muchalready grown and I already have
a grown kid, I feel like I'mjust now settled in parenthood
(09:32):
and trusting myself and theprocess and that things will
work it out.
I've learned more about.
Just their brains and theirdevelopment.
We were literally at the grocerystore this morning.
My husband was telling me aboutan interaction he had with our
16-year-old, and my responsewas, eh, it's just'cause his
brain is so tired from growingthat he can't literally follow
(09:53):
instructions more than twothings.
'cause his brain's distracted.
I just have learned how theirbrains are working and not
working at certain seasons.
Yeah.
Because developmentally that'snormal.
And it doesn't get asfrustrating.
So I don't know.
This is my favorite season, eventhough it's so different.
What about you?
What would you say, like yourfavorite season so far is?
(10:17):
So this
robin (10:17):
is, this is a very unique to my life answer.
But it was, and I can even namethe months.
So it wasn't a season of liketoddler or any of that.
Mm-hmm.
It was actually from, um,mid-January of 2021.
Mm-hmm.
Through May of 2021.
(10:38):
Okay.
And for context, we were stillin the pandemic, right.
It was the first school year ofthe full pandemic, and my
daughter was in kindergarten andI did online kindergarten with
her because of a lot ofdifferent factors.
But the number one factor wasaround my dad.
(10:59):
Uh, he had early onset dementia,and my stepmom had said, if she
goes to kindergarten, we aren'tgonna be able to see you.
Because they were high risk.
Yeah.
And she needed to be the, youknow.
Yeah, primary, primarycaretaker, all of that.
nicole (11:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
robin (11:14):
And I had so much.
Anxiety and angst around whatwas going on in the world, but
also in our world.
'cause we were able to put herinto, um, in-person school, but
only at the semester.
So we had to make that decision.
nicole (11:29):
Oh,
robin (11:29):
and it's kind of like what you said about just.
Knowing, you know, when they'refirst going through something,
it's all of that fear.
Like that's what anxiety is,right?
Anxiety is when you're fearingthe future.
Depression, some people say, iswhen you're like lamenting the
past.
And so the only piece is reallyin the present moment and I was
able to be present during that.
(11:49):
January to May because thedecision was made.
Mm-hmm.
She was gonna finish outkindergarten.
The world was quieter.
Mm-hmm.
I had, um, a set rituals androutines like, I don't know if
you can imagine this, but thehelicopter mom like, flew her
helicopter around ourneighborhood, found other
parents that were mm-hmm.
Doing the kindergarten, onlinehomeschool thing.
(12:10):
Mm-hmm.
So we met every day for recessin our neighborhood.
Oh, I love
nicole (12:14):
that.
robin (12:15):
Every Monday we went to my parents' house and we would
do like an art lesson thereevery Friday.
We went to my friend's house whowas also doing homeschool with
her daughter, and our kids arebesties since they were little
babies.
So it was just this really sweetseason of life.
Mm-hmm.
Where things were slower and Iwas able to be simpler.
I was able to be, yeah.
(12:35):
Yeah.
And.
And I had and really use yourgifts, everyone.
Yes.
nicole (12:39):
Yeah.
robin (12:40):
That was also the season for me where, um, I was really,
you know, in some very deephealing leading up to that, um,
because my motherhood was sotumultuous with healing trauma
and then trauma that I reallyinflicted inadvertently and
unintentionally, but upon myselfwith mental health and addiction
struggles.
(13:00):
Mm-hmm.
During that time, I was reallycoming together with my healing
and mm-hmm.
That was actually when I startedmeditating every day.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't start by saying,I'm gonna meditate every day.
I started the way that I teachpeople, I said, I'm gonna
experiment.
'cause that's part of a growthmindset with how, how much I
could, how often I could dothis.
And so that then I got, um, Ibecame certified and as a
(13:24):
meditation teacher, and I setthe date for my reiki training,
which was in the summer of 2021.
So it was just a really.
Good spot for me to be present.
I was really strong in myspiritual health.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then also what wasfollowing was my physical and
mental health and Right.
(13:45):
So that's what I'm trying to getback to right now.
Right.
Um, I've been in another seasonof different struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, the second year of griefafter losing my dad has been.
Harder.
Then the first year, and then asyou know, and I've been sharing,
(14:06):
especially on my YouTubechannel, I've been dealing with
a melanoma, a skin cancerdiagnosis, just stage zero.
So it hasn't spread and two ofthe spots are actually pre
melanoma.
But I've had to have excisionsthat Right.
Have been really.
Really hard on me.
And one of the excisions, youknow, it didn't heal for, I mean
(14:28):
it still is healing, but it wasreally an intense journey for 18
weeks.
So, you know, you mentioned likemy self-awareness and I do lead
with that and it is a blessing,but it is also a challenge.
nicole (14:40):
Mm-hmm.
robin (14:41):
Because it's hard for me to feel settled when I'm aware
of so many things that areunsettled.
nicole (14:46):
Hmm.
robin (14:46):
So that's what I'm trying to work towards and why I lean
on.
My village and mm-hmm.
Like our friendship because youare just so steady to me and
confident in motherhood, like,and you're also confident that
you're gonna mess up.
nicole (15:06):
Yeah.
I've learned a lot throughfailure and you know, we talk
about, we talked a lot aboutexpectations and I was kind of
thinking about our conversationthat we had a couple episodes
ago about expectations and I.
When I married my husband.
Right.
We talked about how when we gotmarried, my stepdaughter was
five, and when she came, Ididn't ever expect her to live
(15:26):
with us full time because shehad a mom.
Yeah.
And when she did come to livewith us full time at the age of
10, it was through a very tragicevent.
And so then I was living outthis unexpected expectation.
Where it was this double-edgedsword.
I was happy to have her with usall the time, but I wouldn't
(15:49):
have wished the traumatic eventon her.
Yeah.
Like I wouldn't, if that meantthat I only saw her half the
time that she didn't have to gothrough that, I would've
preferred that because no onewants their child to experience
that.
But I think that's reallybecause my biological boys, I
have to add context that I don'tin life, refer to them as
biological and non-biological.
Yeah.
But for context of conversationof our digital village.
(16:12):
I just tread lightly with thatbecause it's really important to
me to not have those definitionson our blended family.
But for context here, when I hadmy biological boys, they were so
little, and then when we got.
Full-time custody.
It really did affect a lot of mymotherhood journey because I
fumbled a lot'cause I didn'tknow what to do with trauma.
(16:35):
I didn't know, I had notexperienced trauma.
I didn't know how to parent andin a trauma-informed way.
And we were nav we were stillnavigating these traumatic
things even after she came tolive with us.
And so it.
I have become confident in mymotherhood because I've learned
as I've gone that like I'm gonnamess up.
(16:55):
Yeah.
And the reality is the soonerthat I can just own that and if
I need to apologize and make itright.
I have apologized to my daughterendless amounts of times, and I
will probably have to continueto do that because we're always
entering into a new season ofrelationship as she's navigating
who she is as an adult.
Not.
That I'm trying to get it wrong,but I'm, I'm a human being and
(17:16):
sometimes I mess up or coming tothem and humbly saying like, how
can I support you in this?
I don't feel like I did a greatjob at supporting you in this.
What feels supportive to you?
Because what feels supportive toyou and what feels supportive to
me is different, and I feel likeI've just.
Learned so much through failure.
robin (17:37):
You know, my husband is a project manager and one of the
things that he has taught methrough his job is that the goal
is to fail fast.
Mm-hmm.
When he works with teams.
And, you know, words are justplaceholders for us to be able
to have shared experiences.
So I want to honor you inwanting to define a name,
(17:58):
especially, you know, for ourlisteners in the way that you
speak about your blended familyand your boys.
And I feel the same when I, youknow, my angel mom and then my,
my stepmom.
Mm-hmm.
And there, there's, there arepieces around that.
But the beauty of not wanting tofail, but accepting that right
part of being human is that weare not perfect.
(18:20):
Mm-hmm.
And once you surrender that, youknow, our past episode was about
prayer and connection andknowing that in our humanness we
are going to have faults and thequicker that we can, I've been
using the, the, the idea of.
You know, if I wanna be inalignment here and I can
(18:40):
identify that I'm out ofalignment, sometimes that takes
me reflecting and looking backseveral years to see mm-hmm what
it was that I can learn fromsometimes.
It takes me last week.
Sometimes it's within the daywhen I'm doing some reflection.
My goal is to continue tominimize that amount of time.
nicole (19:01):
Mm-hmm.
That's good.
So that I can
robin (19:02):
course correct more quickly to show up.
And that's how I, I talk aboutalignment.
Right.
And for me that that's reallywhat that.
Alignment is and getting alignedwith whatever season that we're,
that I'm in.
Um,
nicole (19:17):
yeah.
Well and I think that helps too.
Like when we're looking atmourning the past seasons and
letting go, but still holdingon.
'cause we still are in thisseason of motherhood and we're
bracing for the next season ofmotherhood.
That when the sooner we cancourse correct and forgive
ourselves too, right.
We have to, we have to do that.
If it's part of when we lookback, we think, did I do it
right?
(19:38):
Did I waste time?
Mm-hmm.
Did I miss too much?
There's a lot of eyes in there.
Mm-hmm.
And I think we have to forgiveourselves and release ourselves
from holding onto that shame ifthere is any around it.
Um.
So that you're in alignment andyou're ready and excited for the
next season.
Because if we're learning as wego, then we're becoming more in
(19:58):
alignment and course correctingto really embrace the next
season, which really isexciting.
Yeah, but also scary'cause itfeels like we're getting closer
to the end of the journey orit's just part of the process.
Mourning and and embracing.
But I think that's really goodwhen we're talking about seasons
of motherhood.
That really help.
robin (20:18):
Yeah.
And just even the whole idea,you're not being held back by
those low vibration, the lowenergy of shame.
Of guilt of mm-hmm.
Even regret, like, it's not thatthey're not okay to exist,
right.
It's just we need to movethrough them.
So I wanna wrap up today'sepisode by asking you this
question.
(20:38):
Nicole, what would you say to amom who is grieving.
A season that is no more anddoesn't know how to move forward
in this one.
nicole (20:49):
Hmm.
robin (20:50):
That she's in.
What would you say?
nicole (20:52):
I would say peeling back the layers to find the root of
why you're grieving it.
Because then you can honor itand feel that feeling.
Don't put it off.
Like Robin's talked about thatbefore in other episodes, like
feeling it.
That is important, honoringthose feelings, because then
you're not just pushing it asideto come up in another.
(21:13):
Like that feeling's still gonnacome up one way or another.
Take the pause, find out theroot, honor it, and then you, it
helps you understand how tonavigate differently in the new
season because if it issomething that you wanna do
differently or honor.
Bring into the new season, thenyou're bringing it into the new
season in a new way, not in ashameful, regretful way, but in
(21:36):
a, okay, this is how I wannashape things so that this can be
achieved.
Does that make sense?
robin (21:42):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
What would you say?
I would say, listen to Nicole.
I think the way that you put itwas really powerful and, uh, an
addition that I would add on,and it's something that I am,
um.
Really working to exercise in mylife.
(22:02):
And, you know, I, I leadretreats and I, I do different,
even online events where Icreate rituals and spaces to
really symbolize transitions,including when you gather with
people.
And, um, it's actually been.
Sister Gabe, who's a Franciscansister, who I work with really
(22:24):
closely, who has helped me tosee the power and not only the
power in using ritual and tyingit into faith, but also that
we're meant to do that.
Like that's part of, you know,we're building this virtual
village.
But when Ancestrally speaking,when we were in villages.
(22:46):
We were having ceremonies arounddifferent rites of passage,
which is true, which includedseasons, and that doesn't mean
that we need to get out and doanything grandiose.
That's, again, there's a lot ofmisconceptions around what
certain things need to looklike, but it could even just be.
Journaling about it.
Mm-hmm.
Or praying about it, or lightinga candle and making, saying a
(23:10):
gratitude for what was andmaking a wish for what could be
and blowing the candle out.
It's any little move that reallyrec not only recognizes, but.
Uh, in a way dignifies theexperience.
Yeah.
That's good words.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That one, that one just camefrom, that was, that was a
divine, divine tap right there,ladies, divine downloads, like,
(23:31):
yeah.
nicole (23:31):
Mm-hmm.
robin (23:32):
Real time.
Yeah.
That was good.
Real time.
Well, you know, the big thinghere is as we wrap up today,
you're allowed to miss what wasmm-hmm.
You are allowed to feel whateveryou need to feel while still
choosing to embrace what is.
Mm-hmm.
You are spacious enough andpowerful enough.
For all of that, especially whenyou're surrounded with a
(23:54):
village, to remind you of thereality of this journey that
we're on in motherhood.
And every season of your lifeand motherhood is gonna hold
beauty and challenges, and theyall mm-hmm.
Matter.
You don't have to figure it out.
You just have to keep showingup.
Mm-hmm.
Hopefully with a little bit oftenderness, maybe some grace and
(24:15):
a little less pressure,hopefully to love every moment,
because we're not gonna likesome of them.
nicole (24:20):
Mm-hmm.
robin (24:21):
So if today's conversation stirred something
in you, we ask that you send itto a friend.
Because they might be sitting ina similar season or a messy
place of the middle, not knowinghow to grieve what was and move
on to what is.
So let her know that she's notalone in the longing for what
was or the work to embrace itand.
If this podcast has been a placeof comfort for you, we'd really
(24:44):
love your support to leave aquick rating or review.
It helps us reach more moms whoneed this virtual village.
Nicole and I, we're gonna beright here with you in whatever
season that you're in.
Until next time, just breathedeep and know you're not alone
in this messy middle.
nicole (25:01):
Bye guys.
Hey, before you go, we've gotsomething just for you.
We created the motherhood andthe messy middle resource vault.
It's a growing library ofsupport that's just for you.
So inside you're gonna findtools from both Nicole and my
work plus resources that wemention right here on the
podcast.
It's free, it's sent straight toyour inbox, and it's always
evolving just like you.
So take what you need, leave therest.
(25:22):
You never know when you're gonnaneed it or when your group chat
might thank you for it.
So use the link in the shownotes or head to motherhood and
the messy middle.com to getaccess and welcome to your
virtual village.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!