August 28, 2023 • 59 mins
Ready to shake up your worldview? Join us on this thought-provoking journey as we unravel the ties of colonialism and its effects on our identities, spirituality, and much more. We'll start by challenging you to rethink and renegotiate the structures and ideologies that colonialism has engendered in our lives, penetrating deep into subjects like the caste system and anti-blackness to decipher their influence on our culture.
Our conversation takes a sharp turn towards examining cultural assimilation from a BIPOC perspective, peeling back the layers of complexity inherent in living outside the dominant culture. We'll share valuable insights from literary giants like Toni Morrison, and delve into the delicate intricacies of cultural appropriation, underlining the importance of understanding other cultures instead of appropriating them. There's a whole discussion about the power and pitfalls of language, and the hesitations we often face as BIPOC individuals when utilising certain words.
As we navigate through this enlightening terrain, we'll discuss the complexities of acknowledging our cultural and ancestral identities while grappling with the appropriation of cultural elements by the dominant culture. This conversation is aimed at inspiring you to understand and respect your roots. We'll conclude with the importance of conversation and unity, encouraging you to embrace your identity and learn more about decolonization. We firmly believe that understanding each other can help dismantle oppressive systems, and we extend an invitation to you to be part of this transformative journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I remember last week I was like let's break down some
of the terms we use, because Ifelt that people don't
understand.
Maybe they do, I don't know,but when we talk about
decolonizing or assimilating oreven I don't know, I'm pulling
up my notes.
I did keep notes right now,Even as far as it goes with we
(00:44):
talked Odeisha's different stufflike that.
I don't know what your thoughts.
Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I broke my dog.
I've been taking her on verylong walks in the morning.
We did a five mile walk thismorning and she's been asleep in
the same spot since we got up.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh my God, I heard her barking.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But she was barking from laying down, she was just
like, and then I broke the dog.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Did you hear?
We had a hurricane inCalifornia.
It was not like that, it wasjust rain and wind.
It was not a hurricane.
My little butt was running thestreet still, so it's all good
Anyway.
All right, let's do it.
Welcome to Motherland.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Motherland.
Today we are talking about whatdo we mean when we say
decolonizing our spiritualpractice?
Isabelle had said earlier,before we started recording,
that we talk a lot and we use alot of terms like decolonization
(02:36):
and what does it mean toappropriate a culture or
practice?
What do we mean when we'retrying to decolonize from that?
We have had questions andpeople have asked what do we
mean when we're using thoseterms?
We thought we would take sometime today to talk about what do
we mean by decolonizing ourpractices.
(02:58):
I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I got some great other questions that I
didn't tell you.
That I kind of was like Okay,we'll dive in.
All right, let's start firstwith the term decolonization.
First, I think we're going touse let's talk about
assimilation and decolonizationa little time twister, because
(03:23):
these two concepts I think areoften discussed when we are
having the context of social orcultural and political
discussions, especially relatingto the BIPOC community.
Let's start with the termdecolonization.
How would you break that down?
I feel like you're going to doa good job, but I can piggyback
(03:44):
on it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, when I say decolonize, I am talking about a
reference of colonization.
I'm talking about what happenedwhen European culture went to
different parts of the world andkilled a lot of those people
and pushed their own views,religion and agenda into these
(04:08):
different cultures that startedto adopt a lot of aspects of
European culture.
To decolonize is to separateyourself from that aspect of
European culture.
It's a reclaiming and are-remembering of who we were
before European influence camein.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well said.
Basically, it's taking.
What I was just basically goingto say is undoing the effects
of colonialism and challenging.
I'm going to say challengingthe system, but I actually feel
like you are the system.
It's allowing you to challengeyourself, challenging the
structures and the ideologiesthat have kind of come into play
(04:55):
.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yes For me, and I think it gets really layered and
complicated because I think,when a lot of people may think
about decolonization, I have hadto unpack in myself a lot of
elements of racism, homophobiaand sexism that I embody because
(05:17):
of the culture that I'm in.
I think there is an aspect forsome black folks that they think
they can't be resists or embodythat because they're black.
For me that wasn't true.
There were elements of me thatdidn't like the fact that I was
black when I was growing up.
That's super cringey to say,but I was surrounded by
(05:39):
whiteness.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I think that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I was told again and again that my skin wasn't good
enough and my hair wasn't goodenough and I wasn't pretty
enough.
We've seen this happen not just.
We'll talk about it inreference to spirituality, but I
think that the doll test thathappened in the 60s or the 70s
was really popular, where theyshowed a white doll with blonde
(06:03):
hair to little black girls, andthen a white and then a black
doll.
Then they asked the childrenquestions like which doll is the
nicer doll?
Which doll is the doll that'sgood?
Again and again and again, thewhite doll was chosen for being
good, smart, kind and pretty,and the black doll was seen as
(06:25):
being bad and ugly.
That's not an accident.
That is the messages and thenarratives that is sent through
every aspect of our culture.
To unpack that takes work and Ithink it's a lifelong journey.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You remind me of when I was a kid and it's like, the
more I've studied this, youunderstand the caste system and
the way that we were actuallygoing way back in.
If you guys have never lookedat caste system, go look it up.
As far as, like you actuallyseeing the pictures of,
depending on where your skincolor is and how dark you are,
and your hierarchy, especiallythe Europeans coming into Mexico
(07:05):
and taking over, as well as anHispanic, my skin, especially as
I was child I was so dark.
They used to actually make funof me because I was so dark.
My family alone.
They'd called me a Hershey barand all sorts of names, and it
hurt but what?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I was just really dark.
Yeah, that's anti-blackness.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, it was because your darkness was degraded.
I was degraded because I wasdark and I say this, I was
piggybacking on what you'resaying.
I lost my thought.
But I lost my thought Basically.
Yeah, I was just saying it.
I was thinking of the castesystem and the way that it's
(07:44):
gone into works.
As far as going back into timeand looking at how you have to
get, I don't know, I kind oflost my thought, but finding
yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I think a lot of this comes back to anti-blackness,
and you'll hear a lot of peoplepush back against this idea that
so much of what we're talkingabout in the issues that we have
in our society are rooted inanti-blackness.
Here a lot of people say thatrace is a construct and all this
stuff and it is to a degree.
It's been weaponized.
(08:16):
Whiteness has been weaponized.
When I say whiteness, I meanwhiteness as a construct.
I'm not talking aboutindividual white people.
I'm just clearing that up as wehave this conversation.
Don't at me.
I think when whiteness isweaponized, it hurts white
people and it hurts black andindigenous and other folks of
(08:39):
color.
I think it tries to makewhiteness as an individualistic
sort of thing.
White people don't have tobelong to a group of white
people, but brown people belongto brown people and black people
belong to black people.
So there's a sense thatblackness is one thing,
brownness is one thing, butwhiteness is a bunch of varied
(08:59):
things.
We see that happen when there'sa shooter and the shooter's
white he was somebody who hadmental illness but if it's a
black person who does it, thisis what black people do.
There's those kinds ofconversations.
It can be very harmful.
I think.
When people talk about changingthe system or reforming the
(09:21):
system or saying that thesystem's broken, I completely
disagree.
I think the system is workingas it's designed.
If we're going to talk aboutsort of decolonizing, we need to
think of a new way of beingwith one another and reimagining
a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, do you think that the process of reimagining
in a different way takes, thoughyou looking at kind of your
reclaiming your own sense ofyour own traditions, your own
maybe indigenous sovereignty.
Do you think that is a processof reclaiming that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
or, like you said, yes, I think by liberation.
I can't remember who said thisit might have been Ness in
Mandela or Stephen Bukow butfreedom isn't given, it's taken.
Nobody gives you freedom.
But I think when we're talkingabout freedom, I seek freedom as
(10:18):
being collective right and Isee liberation as being
individual.
And so if I'm going to liberatemyself, I have to take my
liberation and I need to do workfor it.
And while it may be unfair alot of the things that happen to
me as a black individual it'sstill my responsibility to do
what I need to do so I can walkaround and feel liberated.
(10:41):
And it's work, and by work,sometimes that means rest.
It's doing my homework onvarious practices and where I
come from and study and just inthe community.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
So Well, let that kind of I think is a good way of
process going into the termassimilation.
You know, we talked right nowwe just broke down a little bit,
of decolonization, even thoughwe can go so much more deeper, I
think, even with that, which Ithink we will in a little bit.
But assimilating orassimilation, what do you want
to say with that part of it?
(11:20):
What is that?
What do you think that is todecolonization?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think people saw it and we were told that
assimilation as kids was likebeing in America.
That's a big old melting pot.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Oh my gosh, I forgot about Do you remember that whole
melting pot.
You used to learn that insocial studies.
I can actually smell the socialstudies.
I don't know what that used tosay that and actually remember
reading that in the paragraph.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I think how assimilation was taught and what
it really is are two differentthings.
I think it's taught as thisidea that everybody is
appreciated for where they comefrom, but I think it's really
trying to get yourself closer tothe proximity.
Of whiteness is what I thinkassimilation is and so.
But I don't think it's pitchedthat way and it's taught that
(12:07):
way in schools.
I think it's taught reallydifferently.
But Toni Morrison says to beAmerican is to be white, because
everybody else has to hyphen it, and when I first heard that
quote it like slapped me in theface because it is so absolutely
true African American, mexicanAmerican, chinese American.
But when you say American, theassumption is white.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That is so true.
That's so true.
Yeah, I think that you know.
It's funny, because I think, ifI was to break down the actual
term of assimilating orassimilation right, it's
literally adopting the culturalnorms or values of, you know,
society, like of what that is,but what is that?
(12:50):
Like dominant culture?
See, they won't say that, butit's dominant, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Dominant society, yes , yeah, it's shedding the things
about you that make up who youare, so you can get closer to
whatever that dominant cultureis, so you can be accepted.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, because you have to throw your own cultural
identity out the door in orderto adopt these values.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And then, on top of that, you know, when we talk
about cultural identity, there'salso this sense that everybody
who is of a particular culturehas the same view about
everything, which I also findincredibly irritating Like to be
black.
There's a lot of different waysto be black in this world,
right, there's not just one.
(13:37):
There's a lot of ways to beblack in the United States, and
I think that is also somethingthat we're having a conversation
about.
I saw on Instagram a few monthsago a teacher a desi yoga
teacher was talking about andusing the term BIPOC, and I say
(13:59):
BIPOC sometimes I think justwhen I'm being lazy, but I don't
identify as a person of color.
I identify as black Like.
I think blackness is verydifferent than you know being
Asian or being Indian.
Because I think there's anelement of anti-blackness that
has woven so much into oursociety that to be black in this
country is very different thanother things, and so I call
(14:20):
myself black.
I don't even say AfricanAmerican, you know, black is the
descriptor that I prefer formyself and some people.
And there was a I mentioned thething about Instagram because
there was a yoga teacher onthere who said you know, I don't
even use the term BIPOC, like Idon't use the term BIPOC to
refer to myself.
I'm black, I call myself black,black, black, black, black.
(14:43):
That is who I am, and I thinkbeing able to claim how you
identify is important.
And I'm going to talk out of theother side of my mouth, I think
in order to transcend you know,for talking about spirituality,
in order to transcend and getto that place where you're
appreciating your essence, thereis a time that you have to let
(15:04):
those walls sort of dissolve andthen you are just talking about
yourself as a soul.
But you can't do that until youacknowledge a lot of the trauma
that you have to go through toget to that place, and that's
where spiritual bypassing Ithink came in for me from a lot
of white teachers when I wouldtalk about this idea of having
(15:26):
to acknowledge a lot of the harmthat came because of my
identities to get to the souland being told outright that by
me talking about that I was notspiritual, I was getting hung up
on politics and that I wasdoing it wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I get what you're saying because I think on
my side of it you know it'shard, it's interesting.
I'm listening to you, you'relike.
You're like I identify black.
That's what you said.
You know, I think we use theterm BIPOC in our podcast
because it kind of covers allareas.
Right, it's really hard,especially if you have done a
(16:04):
lot of studying into.
You know, like, I've studiedethnic studies.
I've studied, you know, chicanostudies.
You know, right now I'm inreligion and culture.
I'm just, I love the breakdownof it.
I find myself going what thehell am I Like?
Who am I and what am I?
Because when you reallyunderstand that a Mexican isn't
really Mexican, like that's notreally a thing.
(16:28):
So it's like well then, what amI Like?
It's a.
You know how is that.
So I'm just listening to you andI'm like, yeah, I really always
struggle with like, how do Iidentify my like?
What term to use?
You know, sometimes I use Latina, sometimes I use Hispanic,
sometimes I use Mexican, becauseit's like I don't quite know
where I fit, other thanunderstanding like, yeah, I'm a
(16:48):
Dingeness, you know, but it'slike because of the assimilation
process that has been soconfusing for so many people now
, especially in my own, you knowrace and trying to figure it
out.
But in that, even the sense inmy own spirituality, bringing
back to it, it's like we were sobrought in and assimilated.
(17:10):
We go all the way back, rightto the Aztecs and to the Mayans
for me, and going back in thosetimes, that what we believed in
and what we taught was so wrongand it was wrong right To the
fact that now, even when peoplehave to, if you're growing in
your spiritual practice and it'sgoing to come to a point that
you're going to have to face,quote the fears of your
(17:31):
ancestors that were told whatthey were doing was wrong, what
their practices were was wrong,right, what their traditions
were was wrong, and then youknow, coming to that part of
like breaking that down andunderstanding, you know why
people thought it was wrong andhow it was, but thought, power.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and that goes.
So my grandfather I hadmentioned was a communist and an
atheist, and my paternalgrandfather because he saw
Christianity as being a tool ofslavery and completely rejected
it and he was not going to becontrolled and that was like a
very big thing that he taughthis kids.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I understand that it was, though.
Oh yeah, look at the holism,look at the traditions that we
have to learn about it was atool of oppression.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And so, and I think, sort of as I've gone on this
journey, that I've always beenon this journey, I've always
been this person who's beencurious about who I am in the
world and my place in it and myconnection to this larger thing,
and it felt like something Icouldn't necessarily talk about
out loud because it that aspectof questioning who I am on the
(18:47):
planet, and then the universewas construed as being religion,
which was construed as thenbeing, like you know, an uncle
Tom, or being sucked intowhiteness or, you know, sleep
mentality and all that kind ofstuff which I don't see it like
that.
And so it was a long timebefore I felt comfortable even
(19:10):
even talking about these thingsout loud.
And I still get, you know, thatflash of like tightness in my
stomach, like, oh God, mymother's going to be rolling her
eyes or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And this conversation .
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, because I think there's still this, this idea
that spirituality is connectedto organized religion.
So it's not a conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yes, the other day, Tuesday, while I was in my
religion and culture class, theywere actually talking about how
spirituality is like the numberone thing coming up right now.
You know it's not about thereligion or fit in, it's
actually the fast.
They forget how they named it.
They were like it's not areligion but it's very fast
growing and it's the fastestgrowing thing right now.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
It's.
I think it's really powerful.
I think I am.
I am more whole in my body thanI have ever been.
I think, because I haveembraced this idea that I'm more
than this, this thing that Isort of walk around with.
I was listening to Wayne Dyer asI was walking my dog this
(20:19):
morning and he was talking aboutyou know how we shed ourselves
every seven years, you know, foressentially a new body, which
is kind of fascinating if youthink about it.
Right, if you shed all of your,I don't have any of the cells
that I did as a kid.
So how to how, who am I?
Yeah, like I got myself in aknot thinking about it.
(20:44):
I was like, wait, wait, like itgives you this really
incredible understanding, thatof consciousness.
Right, if your cells are alwayschanging and we're in this form
and we're, you know, it's likethis idea that our body is
constantly just moving andchanging.
So what makes us consistentinside, I mean, is it our soul,
(21:05):
in our, in our consciousness?
And I think it's a reallyimportant conversation that
we're able to have now.
But being able to have thatconversation away from the glare
of whiteness, I think, isreally important, and it can get
(21:26):
messy and you know, and noteverybody has to agree, and I
think that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I know?
Did you listen to the um sidenote?
Did you listen to the podcastthat we did with Aaron?
Did you ever re-listen to it?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No, not, since we recorded it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I think I sent you the link.
Uh, I'll try to.
Yeah, I'm saying that to youguys because we just did a pot.
We recorded a podcast um, meand Onika together on another
podcast platform and it wasspirituality through the eyes of
BIPOC or something like that.
Um, and it brought in some ofthese topics that even we're
talking about today a little bitUm, but I find I find it where.
(22:04):
Again, you guys, I'm going toplay back into what Onika says
Like we're just having aconversation right now.
I, you know I don't want you tothink like I'm not racist
Sounds weird to say that but I'msaying that in the sense that
you made a comment right now onout of what did you say?
Out of having this conversation, out of the glare of whiteness,
and I wanted to be like are weever out of?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
the glare of whiteness.
Um, I think you know what I do.
I think right now, we we arebecause we can acknowledge that
is, you know it's, it's aroundbut it doesn't.
It's.
It's informing our conversationbecause of our experiences, but
we aren't speaking to thatgroup of people.
(22:47):
Like you might have to do somecatch up homework to to
understand some things thatIsabelle and I are talking about
, that you might not have to, um, if you are black and brown,
because there are some thingsthat are understood about our
experiences.
So I think that's what I mean,um, and I keep using Toni
Morrison as an example, but Ithink Toni Morrison freaking
(23:08):
lover user Um so you know all ofher books.
She, she spoke about the blackexperience and she spoke about
racism and a lot of the pain andtrauma of slavery, but she, um,
doesn't ever really referencewhite people at all in any of
her books.
And that is very powerfulbecause she's speaking to a
(23:30):
specific audience and thatdoesn't mean that everybody else
isn't welcome to read.
But she's reading, but she'slike this is who I'm talking to.
So I think you and I aretalking to our communities and
everybody else is welcome tolisten.
Um, but there's no contortingwho we are to try and make this
conversation acceptable, and soit could be sort of assimilated,
(23:54):
and there there will be plentyof people who might even be
listening, who pushed back andsay, well, what about this and
what about that?
And I am not here to addressany of that.
I'm speaking through myexperience in my body as a black
queer woman who teaches yogaand mindfulness and joy
(24:15):
practices and that, and that ismy lens by the way, toni
Morrison for me as a child, andToni Morrison, and, and I can
name a couple of other authors.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
We and I have had this conversation with other
people.
Um, in the sense that, as youknow, as an Hispanic, there
wasn't very many Hispanics thatspeak out on um, what it's like
for us.
You know what it's like beingbrown or what it's like feeling.
You know having thatsegregation or different things
(24:49):
Like we just don't.
Because in my, in my upbringing, it was about always
assimilating and not fitting itLike.
Assimilating is what I mean.
We were taught to assimilateand if you don't assimilate,
then we were obviously in thewrong.
Right, like we were in thewrong if we don't assimilate,
even by, like you brought upyour mother right?
So, like my grandfather andthings like that, like I'm I'm
(25:10):
probably the one that speaks outthe most and I think, towards
the end of it, my grandfatherwas always very prideful of you
know what he calls his La Rasa,you know his family, but um, in
his culture, but at the sametime, make sure you assimilate,
right.
So I say that, as there was nobooks for us, there was nobody
that was writing to say hearwhat it's the, the fight, here's
(25:33):
what it's like to you know todecolonize.
Here's what it's like to beproud of who you are.
Like we didn't have that.
There wasn't authors back then.
Now there is now, absolutelythere is.
But as a child I related toTony Morris and I related to
(25:53):
these black authors that werespeaking of things that yeah,
you know, speaking of thingsfrom their own experiences or
their ancestors experiences,because it was the close, most
closely related thing for me.
We didn't have any of that.
Like I didn't have that as achild.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I didn't embrace a lot of this, though, until I was
in college.
So much of me just wanted tofly under the radar and to fit
in, because I felt like I wasalways sticking out, less in the
police school, but definitelyin elementary school.
Yeah, interesting it was really.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was really, it was really uncomfortable, it was I
agree, I felt I fit in inelementary school because in
elementary school I grew up inSouth San Diego, you know, is
predominantly Mexican, Mexican,black, like it was.
Just that was.
That was our predominant.
And then later on I moved intoan all white neighborhood and
that was the rest of my junior,high and high school.
(26:52):
So I always felt out of place.
I've always sought to try tofind.
I always lived in thatuncomfortability of like, who am
I?
Who am I?
What does this look like?
You know, I, like I've saidbefore, right, I'm not, I'm not
white, so I didn't fit in white,but I'm not Mexican enough for
the Mexicans and some of them,you know, is this like, where am
I and what?
(27:13):
What does that look like?
So I think I, especially inhigh school, I think I started
seeking more of that of justwanting to know like things.
But that's, that's.
All I had was the books.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And I always felt on the outside too.
And it's funny because I thinkif people I went to high school
with would hear me saying this,they'd be like you you had
friends, you were popular likewhat do you do?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I made it too.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I don't.
I don't mean that I didn't havefriends right, but I never felt
like I fit in, even though Iwas invited to party, all that
kind of stuff.
It's not like I was a social, Iwas not a social outcast in any
way, shape or form, and I stillfelt terribly uncomfortable.
I did and didn't feel.
(28:04):
I don't think I started to feelcomfortable until I went to
college and took the majority ofmy classes were Africana
studies classes and English, andso I met kids who were like me
and who were, and if theyweren't like me they embraced me
(28:25):
.
Like the music that I listenedto wasn't so bananas and even
though I sounded that a way thatI did so did so many other of
the black kids.
I finally, like I finally metkind of my people when I went to
school and it was, it was kindof refreshing.
And then I still didn't quitefeel like I fit in because then
(28:45):
I was sort of navigating mysexual identity and orientation.
So I've always kind of feltlike you know, I've always been
a little bit on the edges ofeverything and I think that's
probably what led me to teach,you know, for so long at a place
like Rikers Island, wherepeople are sort of cast out,
because I think I always felt alittle bit cast out, even if it
(29:07):
was by my own doing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That's probably why we both do what we do.
Because I have a familycompletely Like.
I've always thought I don'tthink I really understood, even
though I think I've alwayssought to figure out who I was
or how I fit.
Because you know, even though Isay those things about my family
on the other side, here in SanDiego or in California, my
family has done a lot for thecommunity and there's like we're
literally in history books forwhat we've done for the
(29:32):
community and so I've alwayslike, well, you say this and
we're proud of this, but yet weassimilate in this way, like my
mind has always worked this way,but it probably wasn't until
later on, I think probably maybein my I don't know maybe my 30s
.
I think I really kind ofstarted connecting the dots as I
watched my kids, because Iwanted my kids to be really
(29:54):
proud of being Hispanic, Iwanted them to really come back
to their roots, and so I thinksomewhere through my children I
kind of started to do thedecolonization process and kind
of looking at those things, likeI feel that now and now I have
a sense of a big community, likewhy I'm like, okay, these are
my people and this is why I fitin, but I definitely didn't feel
(30:18):
that growing up at all.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, and you know I think it's interesting because
I'm 52.
And in the late 80s, that'swhen Cosby Show became sort of
like a standard of you know, ofa new standard of blackness.
And for all of the people whosaid that the Cosby Show wasn't
(30:45):
realistic, I watched it and Ifinally saw myself on TV.
I was like, oh, that's my fan,that's my fan.
Like, no, that's me, like I'mVanessa, I wanted to be Denise,
but I'm Vanessa, like I'm thatperson, my parents are like that
, my parents have friends likethat, like it was really very
(31:07):
affirming, like holy shit, Ifeel seen.
And it wasn't until that pointthat I and then a different
world came out and I was like,oh my God, I, you know, it was
just so refreshing to sort ofsee my experience reflected.
And then, as elements of blackculture became part of
(31:28):
mainstream culture.
I think there was this sensethat you know society was trying
to become like post-racial,that there was going to be, you
know, everybody was going to beokay with all different kinds of
cultures.
But I saw whiteness sort ofadopt elements of everybody's
(31:49):
culture, but withoutappreciating the trauma.
Right, what would Amanda Steelesay?
They want our rhythm but don'twant our blues, and I think it's
so true.
It's so true Like and I don'tjust even mean black culture, I
mean people taking Indian nameswhen they become yoga teachers.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Oh, everybody's a shaman.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yes, yes, all that kind of stuff, like then, as
aspects of our culture, becameacceptable.
It was like wearing us ascostumes, which I started to get
really infuriated with.
And then I even had to checkmyself when I started to study
yoga.
Like wait a minute, what am Idoing?
Like I don't say Namasteanymore Because it's not my,
(32:35):
it's not my culture.
I've studied yoga and Iappreciate it, and there's some
really great teachers who talkabout.
If you're going to say Namaste,how are you staying in and why
are you saying it?
But I had to even really notice.
Am I appropriating elements oflanguage, as I've been on my own
journey too?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's so true.
Like I'm just listening to youand I was like, yeah, it wasn't.
It was like we're going to havethis, but now it's just been a
blending of we're going to takethis, and then we're going to
take this, and then we're goingto take this, and I think that
brings us always back to what wetalk about.
Then we're now once again seenas okay, this is the right way
of doing it, but the way thatyou do it is the wrong way.
So you know, just to FYI, andit's like no, that's not, that's
(33:19):
not at all.
You know, let's just not how itworks.
And so we're right back to again.
It's like we're always in this,like perpetual cycle of like,
okay, let me reclaim it back,let me reclaim it back, let me
reclaim it back.
And it's like.
It's like you guys, I'll behonest, it's like you have to
stop taking what isn't yours totake.
(33:40):
And if you wish to understandit that's a completely different
story, absolutely Thenunderstand it, learn it,
acknowledge it, grow in it, likewhatever, however you want to
be it, but you can't take it asyours in that way.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And quote it.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, there are so manyteachers out there who just
quote things from like theBuddha or other people Like
those aren't your words.
It doesn't take anything awayfrom you to properly give
acknowledgement of who youstudied and where you studied,
(34:17):
and in fact I think it shows thedepth of your experience that
you can tie together differentpeople that you've studied from
to sort of make a larger point.
It shows how diverse you are inyour learning, rather than just
trying to hoard everything andsay that you came up with all of
(34:38):
this stuff and sort of thinkthat you're now the expert,
you're now the guru.
Because that's whiteness?
Because if we're talking aboutindigenous practices, it is
centered around this idea ofcommunity and collective
consciousness, and I think thatthat is really important.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
It's so interesting.
Okay, I'm going to say I'mgoing to pose a question right
now, but it's like.
It's like because of the waythings have been so misconstrued
with language in itself, I findmyself either hesitant to use
language that I feel I'm allowedto use because it's like it's
overly used or it's been usedthe wrong way so many times.
I hold myself back often fromlike speaking certain things
because I'm just like no, like Idon't want to trendset with
(35:22):
that, or I don't want to jumpinto that.
You know, one of the things Iwas going to say, just
piggybacking on this, is howlanguage is often intertwined
with spirituality and culture,right?
So just a question, because Ihad a few how has this
impression of indigenouslanguages Okay, it's going to be
a deep question, guys that arelistening how has this
(35:43):
impression of indigenouslanguages during colonialization
affected your spiritualknowledge and beliefs?
So, just exactly what I'msaying, right?
Like, like I hold back what Iwant to say in my knowledge, or
what I know, and even in myupbringing, because of the way
(36:04):
things have been assimilated, Idon't teach in certain ways and
it affects what I sometimesteach on or how I show up.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah.
So I think I'm thinking of acouple of things.
One, six or seven months ago, Iwas on a panel for a virtual
conference and the panel was ashit show.
It was terrible.
The moderator was awful, she'sall caught up in her nonsense
and she's asking really racistquestions.
(36:36):
It was terrible and it wasawful.
And I was on a panel with thisone guy of South Asian descent
and he started going off aboutpeople appropriating culture and
language.
That was not there.
There you go, and I heard whathe was saying and I pushed back
(36:59):
a little bit, I think to thesurprise of a couple of people
who are on the panel, because Iwas like, yes, and as somebody
who is of African descent, whojust recently found out where
she is from, I do appreciatewhat you're saying.
Let's make sure that we knowwho we're talking to, because I
(37:21):
don't know who to study, becauseI didn't know who I was because
I was taken from where I'm from.
So, yes, sir, I understand whatyou're saying, but let's also
acknowledge that there's a wholebunch of us who don't know
where we're from, going backthree generations, because there
are no records.
And so it's like this dance,right, like it's a very
(37:47):
difficult and challenging dance,and this is where I believe and
this is where I think thespirituality comes in, where I
start to know and recognize andfeel parts of my culture.
When I hear things like a drum,for example, I just had this
conversation with my mother.
She hates drums.
When I hear drums, I know for afact that I am African.
(38:12):
I just know it and I can'texplain it, but I know it.
I hear drums and I am beingspoken to and it is something
very powerful that I can't putinto words.
It is just a feeling.
You're saying that completely.
Yeah, so I don't know if Icompletely answered the question
, but I think that is how I'velearned to navigate it and being
(38:34):
able to know my DNA so I canresearch Personally Nigerian and
Cameroonian.
I've started to do someresearch there, but I can walk
there and be because it's so farremoved from who I am.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So one of the things that often comes up with me and
my clients is people asking howdo I get to know my ancestors or
who I am, when I have no ideawhat that is?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
I would say to study as much as you can to find out.
But I think for black Americansthere is an element of our
spirituality that is in ourculture and that's where I think
there's this connection betweenblackness being a culture and
also a spirituality, because ofthe very unique experience that
(39:25):
we have in this country, thatthere are elements of our
culture that is spiritual.
I also think if you ask to beconnected with it and you do
that study, you can't figure itout.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
No, I don't think that sounds like.
I think that makes sense.
I think one of the biggestthings for me it's interesting
just a little bit.
Mine is that my okay.
So what's really interesting inthis?
Just a full, quick picture mystepmother, who's white growing
up, worked with the indigenouscommunity in trading.
So growing up I had a lot of,yes, my own stuff, but then
(40:05):
there was indigenous stuff thatI had learned and practiced as a
kid just because she was partof that community and worked in
that community and later on,through my own work and my own
meditations, my own guidancepeople, I always had indigenous
guides and I'm just like I don'tknow this, but I know it's
somewhere in our roots, I canfeel it in my blood, even though
(40:28):
no one's talking about it, andso much so that I even in sweat
lodges when I've gotten invitedto sit, they're like you are.
There's so much more to likeyou're indigenous.
We can see it the way you teachyour beliefs, like what you say
are things that you wouldn'teven know if you weren't it
wasn't in your blood of beingindigenous and I'm like, well,
(40:52):
it's not.
No one's saying anything, right?
So just last year before beforeI actually got my ancestral.
I had did the DNA.
Before I got it back, my fathercame to find out that he was a
hunt.
He was like 100% or like 90something percent yaki fool and
basically the name of theselling of the land.
(41:15):
When the yaki's were gettingkilled off, like they had some
people change their names andbasically our land was stolen,
which I guess there's like myanswer, like yeah, it's in
history you can actually readabout your great great
grandfather.
We're finding out more rightnow that the land was stolen
because of he had to change hisname and all the stuff to hide.
And I'm like, oh, this allmakes sense now, like everything
(41:38):
was like I told you all that wewere indigenous this whole time
, when everybody's like what areyou doing?
And I'm like it's us.
So I think you make a goodpoint when you're like you'll
know, I think you just knowinside yourself like okay, this
is you know, this is what it isor this is what I am.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Which is why also and this also goes back to what you
and I are always talking aboutyou have to know yourself.
You have to know what'shappening inside you so you can
start to hear messages that arehappening inside you and that
are being told, so you're notignoring them or just thinking
it's some random coincidence, oryou know, or you write it off
(42:23):
to some weird experience, andthat people are talking to you.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
So I know that, like now, looking at spirituality and
the way that it is and like wesee, like you've even touched on
it today, about how, likethere's been so much has been
picked up here and there andhere and there, right, it's like
a blend of cultures, of peopleteaching various topics that
some just shouldn't be teaching.
Sorry, I'm going to say it,right, and I feel like I'm even
listening to this conversationand I'm like it like brings this
(42:56):
whole other element right,Decolonizing within yourself.
Right, and understanding like Ihave to decolonize my family, I
have to decolonize my roots, Ihave to decolonize what I went
through through my childhood.
I've decolonized all thesethings.
Now I'm in the process of now Igot to decolonize spirituality
as well.
Do you know what I mean?
You're like now I got to breakthat stuff and so allowing
(43:16):
yourself like this is justsomething to I guess I wasn't
expecting to say this, but I'mgoing to say it like allowing
yourself to decolonize your ownspiritual practices, to really
discover what that looks like inreconnecting you back to your
cultural roots, you know, andresisting the impact of, you
know, colonization, in a sense.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I love that.
I think it's so important.
And also, and also showing upas you are as a teacher and
you've been doing your work.
That also helps decolonizecertain practices when you are
teaching through your lens,right, that's also an important.
(44:02):
I think that's really importantthat I show up who I am and I
don't.
I don't not talk about who I amand through the teachings,
because that is, that's a partof my experience and I think
that I think that matters andwhich is why I think it's so
(44:22):
important that a lot ofdifferent teachers for a lot of
different experiences choose toteach, so it's not just all told
from this one lens.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah, and I think that right now is becoming the
beauty of it.
But I think, unfortunately,especially going back into how
long I've been practicing thisor how long I've been in this,
it's that, you know, I think Ialways thought go back and when
we talk about spiritualbypassing, is the fact that so
much during my spiritualinvolvement, right was
assimilating, so much was it wasassimilating into certain
(44:56):
things of, like, the dominantcultures beliefs, the dominant
cultures beliefs, thespirituality, the way
spirituality was taught, youknow.
And so now, like, for me it's abreakdown, but educating is a
big part of it.
I feel like that's why, if Ithink it's really important as
I'm gonna use the word BIPOC,but as a BIPOC teacher, as a
(45:16):
leader, it's important that weare educated in our, you know,
cultural studies, our ethnicstudies, you know, like I said
right now, taking religion andculture studies, like, so that
we're able to break down andhelp people to, you know, see
things in a different light andunderstand stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Absolutely, because we certainly have our own, you
know, phd in life experience.
But we are also bothacademically trained.
You know, like I amacademically trained in Africana
studies, women's studies andpolitical science.
Yeah, I also have my own livedexperience of being in this body
and living in this country.
So I think when we're bothspeaking about these things,
(45:53):
we're speaking from lifeexperience, but we're also
speaking because we study thisstuff and I think that's
important and I think it matters, like I think it really matters
.
I don't think everybody agreesand I think you know people are
entitled to that, you know.
I think you know, even thinkingpolitically, like black people
who are conservative orRepublicans and all that kind of
(46:13):
stuff, you know, do I want todiscount their experience?
I mean, I agree with them, butyou know we're not a modelist
and I think that happens inspiritual practices too.
Like, you know, people who areblack and brown and indigenous,
who have adopted Europeanculture, religious culture and
(46:34):
spiritual culture and doubledown on it and so what would you
say, though, in the sense thatso much of spirituality is
rooted in indigenous beliefs?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
and how do people respectively engage with and
learn from these practices whilewithout appropriating?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I don't know.
I think that's a really goodquestion, but I think we even
acknowledge that elements ofChristianity have been rooted
and a lot of naturalspirituality that they just
pretend right and I'm I'mactually asking that I'm more
telling because I do not know alot about Christianity but isn't
even like Easter come from,Like the way that we celebrate
(47:16):
Easter is not the way thatEaster right, there's a little.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I mean that's like.
I mean that's not part of anyChristianity.
I mean Easter is about, youknow, the rising of Christ.
That's why we celebrate.
It's supposed to be aboutChrist rising.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
And all of that stuff does come from other.
I think European pagantraditions right A lot of it
does.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
There's actually a really interesting there is I
have to look up.
I cannot remember the nameright now.
It's really interesting if youlook at the story of Christ and
and and view it.
There's actually I cannotremember, I'm gonna have to look
it up but there's a Greek storyon a God that actually mimics
(48:03):
the same story of Christ.
That was written years before.
Wow, the Bible was written.
So it's this whole thing.
I read this whole book.
That just was like I kind ofleft it like what it's on my
bookshelf right now.
I can't remember the name, butit basically was like this is
the Christ that we're talkedabout, but let's review actually
(48:25):
where this story could haveactually came from, because
these are stories that werewritten years before the Christ
story came, and so, yeah, so Iguess I say that there's some
elements of appropriation thatare even recent in European
culture that people don't evenrecognize.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I think it's my responsibility to move in a way
where I'm trying to do the leastamount of harm that I can.
So I do my best to study andappreciate and what I learn.
I don't do certain things likeI mentioned.
I don't really say not, mustsay anymore, and some ways that
I learned yoga.
(49:08):
I realize now a lot of that wasappropriated and it wasn't a
way that I should have beenteaching yoga and I don't
anymore and I acknowledged thatI learned what I learned because
that's how I learned it andthen I had to sort of let that
go.
So I think as I get moreappropriated and gain more
knowledge, I give grace to thatversion of me who didn't know
(49:31):
better and then adopt and sortof move forward.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
I want to say something on that, because you
were saying I learned what Ilearned.
Look, here's for the listenersIf you're guided and you want to
learn yoga or meditationinstructor or even Reiki or
whatever, learn it, go ahead andbe learned, but allow yourself
to shape that to what it needsto be shaped for you and your
culture and who you are, ratherthan just sticking to the lines
(49:56):
of that you know, like you'redoing for yoga and the same
thing like, yes, I certify and Iteach people in Reiki, but my
Reiki is so different, it's amore in guiding people to their
own cultural beliefs, like I.
Have people that are like, howdo I do Reiki and incorporate
Olympias, you know, becausethat's a big thing for us, right
, and I'm like, well, they'rekind of one of the same.
But if you want to incorporatea full blown traditional Olympia
(50:19):
, by all means incorporate itwith the Reiki.
Why not?
Why not?
Let your cultural practicesbreathe into it?
Because that's the gift thatyou are given that I fully want
to say nobody can take.
Nobody can take that gift.
That is your beliefs, that isyour traditions, that is part of
your heritage and there's areason, I think, that so many
(50:43):
BIPOC, teachers, leaders,healers are rising, because I
think that, no matter how muchsociety, no matter how much they
have tried to take it from us,it's still part of our blood,
it's part of our DNA and it'sgoing to find its way to come
out.
And I think that's the beauty oflike fine, we're going to learn
and underquote what you'regoing to call it Right, but
(51:05):
we're going to make it ours andwe're going to show you how to
make it ours, yours, you know,and to feel safe in that.
And that's the other part, Ithink, with decolonization is
that feeling safe and allowingyourself to feel safe in who you
are, because we were taughtthat we and ourselves were not
safe.
We were taught we're not safe.
You know it's not safe tobelieve what you believe in.
(51:26):
It's not safe to look the wayyou look, like everything about
you is a red flag.
So now you're like how do I goabout and speaking out and who
am I when I've literally havebeen wired to not feel safe?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
And to think that my exact, my entire being is wrong,
right, yeah, and that thattakes grieving.
I think grieving is a yes,that's huge.
That we don't talk.
I think you and I do it sort ofnaturally, but it's an
important part of the processthat this isn't just always this
(52:03):
just happy go lucky thing.
There's an element where I wasreally angry and sad that I had
to go back and do this work.
Like what was that?
I was mad, right, I was mad,yeah.
And then like how much time youknow and I put this in air
quotes how much time have Iwasted and you know, and feeling
(52:26):
brokenhearted and allowingmyself to go through that
processing, breathe it, not justfor me but for my ancestors
before me yes.
All of those people who were,who had to hide, who weren't
allowed to be who they were, whowere killed.
All of those things are also inme, and having to hold that and
(52:49):
then from that also finding aplace to celebrate and stand in
joy and be really proud aboutthat, it's definitely a strength
in it yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
There's definitely a strength in it, but I think
grieving is a very, very bigthing and I think that's a good
warning too, and I'm gonna be.
I'm gonna say it's a warningthat as you do this work,
there's gonna be a lot ofemotions that rise up.
You know there's gonna be a lotthat you may be really angry
about.
Depending on how deep you go.
You're gonna find out thingsthat you were like.
This was not taught in myhistory books.
(53:21):
You know, I think recently,what I was like reading about
the lynchings of Mexico.
How many Mexicans were lynched?
Who the heck?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
ever talks about us being lynched no one talks about
it.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
I know Like nobody, and I was just, and we were
lynched for being successful.
That's why we were lynched.
Oh, you're having a successfulbusiness lynched.
You know, even right now I'mtalking about it, I'm getting
emotional and it's like you guyshave to like know, you have to
allow yourself to grieve foryour ancestors, and you're gonna
find, hey, I'm really angry,but none of this was addressed.
(53:54):
I'm really angry about this andthere is a thing that I went
through where I was like wait asecond, am I racist now?
Because I'm like mad at this,I'm frustrated at this, you know
.
Well, that's what I had to kindof look at.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Also racism and racism to be racist.
There's an element of powerthat is a part of racism.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah, you don't have.
So yes, I understand that, butI'm just saying my own notions,
Prejudice maybe but Right.
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
But I think no, I think you're right, isabel.
There's an element of rage thathas to be acknowledged, which
so many of practices that aretaught through a European lens.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
No rage.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Try to watch over, try to push your rage down, tell
you to swallow it.
And you know why?
Because they know that there'severy reason that we should feel
rage, that we should be angry,and we are easier to control
when we're happy and smiling andsaying that everything is okay.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
And you know what Sad is they're still doing it this
day, like look at all thebookbans.
Have you seen all the bookbans?
Oh yeah, like that's insane,like I'm just like we're right
back at it again.
Yeah, like, here we go again.
You know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
But just my, conversations like this are
incredibly important for us tobe able to have with each other.
That's why I think some ofthese affinity spaces are really
important, and it's not a wayto segregate.
It is a way for people to beable to come together and talk
out of that glare that I wastalking about, so we can just
(55:36):
share and be in community andjust be ourselves and let our
shoulders drop and sigh and nothave to catch people up.
I'm not trying to catch you upon the barbecue because I don't
have time.
This is my time to talk toIsabel.
I'm talking to Isabel and I'mnot filling you in.
You know you put raisins inyour potato salad and there's
(55:57):
nothing I can do about that.
But this is our conversationthat we're having right now.
You're welcome to listen, like,listen, like not stop at you,
but sometimes we just gotta beable to relax.
Yeah, it's so, it's it's, it'svital.
I think it's absolutely vitaland there's nothing.
(56:18):
We're taught to think thatthere's something wrong about it
.
Right, like groups of black andbrown people can't gather
together because you know we'retrying to like start a riot, so.
So it's even seen as being sortof subversive for us just to
gather and relax.
There's this really greatdocumentary called the Dharma
Brothers and it is about a groupof guys who were at Angola
(56:41):
Prison who started meditating.
They would get together, they'dtalk about the Dharma and
meditate.
It was actually seen as being athreat because these guys and a
lot of them were lifers werejust sitting and being quiet
because it was so againsteverything else that there must
(57:02):
be.
They must be up to something.
What are they up to?
Why are they?
just sitting and meditating.
What are they really doing?
And I think it those kinds ofthings shape the system, like us
talking and celebrating who weare and crying about who we are
and feeling joy and all of thatkind of stuff.
(57:25):
It breaks, it, chisels away atthe system.
The more that we step into ourpower, the more that we move
from a place of love it all sortof chips away.
There's this sense that weshould always be.
If we're always fighting, we'renot paying attention on what's
really going on.
So the more that we can be inrooms together and talk and
(57:45):
chill and understand each otherwe don't even have to like each
other, but if we can understandand appreciate and love each
other, we have this ability tobe strong.
We are the global majority inyou.
We make up Right.
Yeah, we are the globalmajority.
It's us, yeah, and so I thinkit's important that we, that we
(58:06):
sometimes get together and talkabout and remember it, and
that's why I think our podcastis really special.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
It is.
It is, I agree.
All right, that was good.
Any other notes you want togive to the people?
Speaker 2 (58:22):
No, I am.
I'm so glad that you had ushave this conversation.
I love this conversation, yeahme too.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
I love this conversation.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
I'm sure we'll have more.
All right, yeah, I just want tocome.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
I think you guys are looking for any resources or
you're looking to know more.
I think you can either reachout to you know me or Onika,
separately or together, whateveryou guys want to do.
And yeah, all right, onika hassome great book references.
I have some of my own bookreferences, so if you're like
where can I find more knowledgeor read about this, give us a DM
(58:56):
.
Yeah, all right, we will talkto you guys later.
Have a good one, bye.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
You.
I remember last week I was like let's break down some
of the terms we use, because Ifelt that people don't
understand.
Maybe they do, I don't know,but when we talk about
decolonizing or assimilating oreven I don't know, I'm pulling
up my notes.
I did keep notes right now,Even as far as it goes with we
(00:44):
talked Odeisha's different stufflike that.
I don't know what your thoughts.
Let's do that.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I broke my dog.
I've been taking her on verylong walks in the morning.
We did a five mile walk thismorning and she's been asleep in
the same spot since we got up.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh my God, I heard her barking.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
But she was barking from laying down, she was just
like, and then I broke the dog.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Did you hear?
We had a hurricane inCalifornia.
It was not like that, it wasjust rain and wind.
It was not a hurricane.
My little butt was running thestreet still, so it's all good
Anyway.
All right, let's do it.
Welcome to Motherland.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Motherland.
Today we are talking about whatdo we mean when we say
decolonizing our spiritualpractice?
Isabelle had said earlier,before we started recording,
that we talk a lot and we use alot of terms like decolonization
(02:36):
and what does it mean toappropriate a culture or
practice?
What do we mean when we'retrying to decolonize from that?
We have had questions andpeople have asked what do we
mean when we're using thoseterms?
We thought we would take sometime today to talk about what do
we mean by decolonizing ourpractices.
(02:58):
I'm looking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah, I got some great other questions that I
didn't tell you.
That I kind of was like Okay,we'll dive in.
All right, let's start firstwith the term decolonization.
First, I think we're going touse let's talk about
assimilation and decolonizationa little time twister, because
(03:23):
these two concepts I think areoften discussed when we are
having the context of social orcultural and political
discussions, especially relatingto the BIPOC community.
Let's start with the termdecolonization.
How would you break that down?
I feel like you're going to doa good job, but I can piggyback
(03:44):
on it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, when I say decolonize, I am talking about a
reference of colonization.
I'm talking about what happenedwhen European culture went to
different parts of the world andkilled a lot of those people
and pushed their own views,religion and agenda into these
(04:08):
different cultures that startedto adopt a lot of aspects of
European culture.
To decolonize is to separateyourself from that aspect of
European culture.
It's a reclaiming and are-remembering of who we were
before European influence camein.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well said.
Basically, it's taking.
What I was just basically goingto say is undoing the effects
of colonialism and challenging.
I'm going to say challengingthe system, but I actually feel
like you are the system.
It's allowing you to challengeyourself, challenging the
structures and the ideologiesthat have kind of come into play
(04:55):
.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yes For me, and I think it gets really layered and
complicated because I think,when a lot of people may think
about decolonization, I have hadto unpack in myself a lot of
elements of racism, homophobiaand sexism that I embody because
(05:17):
of the culture that I'm in.
I think there is an aspect forsome black folks that they think
they can't be resists or embodythat because they're black.
For me that wasn't true.
There were elements of me thatdidn't like the fact that I was
black when I was growing up.
That's super cringey to say,but I was surrounded by
(05:39):
whiteness.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I think that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
I was told again and again that my skin wasn't good
enough and my hair wasn't goodenough and I wasn't pretty
enough.
We've seen this happen not just.
We'll talk about it inreference to spirituality, but I
think that the doll test thathappened in the 60s or the 70s
was really popular, where theyshowed a white doll with blonde
(06:03):
hair to little black girls, andthen a white and then a black
doll.
Then they asked the childrenquestions like which doll is the
nicer doll?
Which doll is the doll that'sgood?
Again and again and again, thewhite doll was chosen for being
good, smart, kind and pretty,and the black doll was seen as
(06:25):
being bad and ugly.
That's not an accident.
That is the messages and thenarratives that is sent through
every aspect of our culture.
To unpack that takes work and Ithink it's a lifelong journey.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You remind me of when I was a kid and it's like, the
more I've studied this, youunderstand the caste system and
the way that we were actuallygoing way back in.
If you guys have never lookedat caste system, go look it up.
As far as, like you actuallyseeing the pictures of,
depending on where your skincolor is and how dark you are,
and your hierarchy, especiallythe Europeans coming into Mexico
(07:05):
and taking over, as well as anHispanic, my skin, especially as
I was child I was so dark.
They used to actually make funof me because I was so dark.
My family alone.
They'd called me a Hershey barand all sorts of names, and it
hurt but what?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I was just really dark.
Yeah, that's anti-blackness.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, it was because your darkness was degraded.
I was degraded because I wasdark and I say this, I was
piggybacking on what you'resaying.
I lost my thought.
But I lost my thought Basically.
Yeah, I was just saying it.
I was thinking of the castesystem and the way that it's
(07:44):
gone into works.
As far as going back into timeand looking at how you have to
get, I don't know, I kind oflost my thought, but finding
yourself.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
I think a lot of this comes back to anti-blackness,
and you'll hear a lot of peoplepush back against this idea that
so much of what we're talkingabout in the issues that we have
in our society are rooted inanti-blackness.
Here a lot of people say thatrace is a construct and all this
stuff and it is to a degree.
It's been weaponized.
(08:16):
Whiteness has been weaponized.
When I say whiteness, I meanwhiteness as a construct.
I'm not talking aboutindividual white people.
I'm just clearing that up as wehave this conversation.
Don't at me.
I think when whiteness isweaponized, it hurts white
people and it hurts black andindigenous and other folks of
(08:39):
color.
I think it tries to makewhiteness as an individualistic
sort of thing.
White people don't have tobelong to a group of white
people, but brown people belongto brown people and black people
belong to black people.
So there's a sense thatblackness is one thing,
brownness is one thing, butwhiteness is a bunch of varied
(08:59):
things.
We see that happen when there'sa shooter and the shooter's
white he was somebody who hadmental illness but if it's a
black person who does it, thisis what black people do.
There's those kinds ofconversations.
It can be very harmful.
I think.
When people talk about changingthe system or reforming the
(09:21):
system or saying that thesystem's broken, I completely
disagree.
I think the system is workingas it's designed.
If we're going to talk aboutsort of decolonizing, we need to
think of a new way of beingwith one another and reimagining
a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, do you think that the process of reimagining
in a different way takes, thoughyou looking at kind of your
reclaiming your own sense ofyour own traditions, your own
maybe indigenous sovereignty.
Do you think that is a processof reclaiming that?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
or, like you said, yes, I think by liberation.
I can't remember who said thisit might have been Ness in
Mandela or Stephen Bukow butfreedom isn't given, it's taken.
Nobody gives you freedom.
But I think when we're talkingabout freedom, I seek freedom as
(10:18):
being collective right and Isee liberation as being
individual.
And so if I'm going to liberatemyself, I have to take my
liberation and I need to do workfor it.
And while it may be unfair alot of the things that happen to
me as a black individual it'sstill my responsibility to do
what I need to do so I can walkaround and feel liberated.
(10:41):
And it's work, and by work,sometimes that means rest.
It's doing my homework onvarious practices and where I
come from and study and just inthe community.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
So Well, let that kind of I think is a good way of
process going into the termassimilation.
You know, we talked right nowwe just broke down a little bit,
of decolonization, even thoughwe can go so much more deeper, I
think, even with that, which Ithink we will in a little bit.
But assimilating orassimilation, what do you want
to say with that part of it?
(11:20):
What is that?
What do you think that is todecolonization?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I think people saw it and we were told that
assimilation as kids was likebeing in America.
That's a big old melting pot.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Oh my gosh, I forgot about Do you remember that whole
melting pot.
You used to learn that insocial studies.
I can actually smell the socialstudies.
I don't know what that used tosay that and actually remember
reading that in the paragraph.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I think how assimilation was taught and what
it really is are two differentthings.
I think it's taught as thisidea that everybody is
appreciated for where they comefrom, but I think it's really
trying to get yourself closer tothe proximity.
Of whiteness is what I thinkassimilation is and so.
But I don't think it's pitchedthat way and it's taught that
(12:07):
way in schools.
I think it's taught reallydifferently.
But Toni Morrison says to beAmerican is to be white, because
everybody else has to hyphen it, and when I first heard that
quote it like slapped me in theface because it is so absolutely
true African American, mexicanAmerican, chinese American.
But when you say American, theassumption is white.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That is so true.
That's so true.
Yeah, I think that you know.
It's funny, because I think, ifI was to break down the actual
term of assimilating orassimilation right, it's
literally adopting the culturalnorms or values of, you know,
society, like of what that is,but what is that?
(12:50):
Like dominant culture?
See, they won't say that, butit's dominant, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Dominant society, yes , yeah, it's shedding the things
about you that make up who youare, so you can get closer to
whatever that dominant cultureis, so you can be accepted.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, because you have to throw your own cultural
identity out the door in orderto adopt these values.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
And then, on top of that, you know, when we talk
about cultural identity, there'salso this sense that everybody
who is of a particular culturehas the same view about
everything, which I also findincredibly irritating Like to be
black.
There's a lot of different waysto be black in this world,
right, there's not just one.
(13:37):
There's a lot of ways to beblack in the United States, and
I think that is also somethingthat we're having a conversation
about.
I saw on Instagram a few monthsago a teacher a desi yoga
teacher was talking about andusing the term BIPOC, and I say
(13:59):
BIPOC sometimes I think justwhen I'm being lazy, but I don't
identify as a person of color.
I identify as black Like.
I think blackness is verydifferent than you know being
Asian or being Indian.
Because I think there's anelement of anti-blackness that
has woven so much into oursociety that to be black in this
country is very different thanother things, and so I call
(14:20):
myself black.
I don't even say AfricanAmerican, you know, black is the
descriptor that I prefer formyself and some people.
And there was a I mentioned thething about Instagram because
there was a yoga teacher onthere who said you know, I don't
even use the term BIPOC, like Idon't use the term BIPOC to
refer to myself.
I'm black, I call myself black,black, black, black, black.
(14:43):
That is who I am, and I thinkbeing able to claim how you
identify is important.
And I'm going to talk out of theother side of my mouth, I think
in order to transcend you know,for talking about spirituality,
in order to transcend and getto that place where you're
appreciating your essence, thereis a time that you have to let
(15:04):
those walls sort of dissolve andthen you are just talking about
yourself as a soul.
But you can't do that until youacknowledge a lot of the trauma
that you have to go through toget to that place, and that's
where spiritual bypassing Ithink came in for me from a lot
of white teachers when I wouldtalk about this idea of having
(15:26):
to acknowledge a lot of the harmthat came because of my
identities to get to the souland being told outright that by
me talking about that I was notspiritual, I was getting hung up
on politics and that I wasdoing it wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I get what you're saying because I think on
my side of it you know it'shard, it's interesting.
I'm listening to you, you'relike.
You're like I identify black.
That's what you said.
You know, I think we use theterm BIPOC in our podcast
because it kind of covers allareas.
Right, it's really hard,especially if you have done a
(16:04):
lot of studying into.
You know, like, I've studiedethnic studies.
I've studied, you know, chicanostudies.
You know, right now I'm inreligion and culture.
I'm just, I love the breakdownof it.
I find myself going what thehell am I Like?
Who am I and what am I?
Because when you reallyunderstand that a Mexican isn't
really Mexican, like that's notreally a thing.
(16:28):
So it's like well then, what amI Like?
It's a.
You know how is that.
So I'm just listening to you andI'm like, yeah, I really always
struggle with like, how do Iidentify my like?
What term to use?
You know, sometimes I use Latina, sometimes I use Hispanic,
sometimes I use Mexican, becauseit's like I don't quite know
where I fit, other thanunderstanding like, yeah, I'm a
(16:48):
Dingeness, you know, but it'slike because of the assimilation
process that has been soconfusing for so many people now
, especially in my own, you knowrace and trying to figure it
out.
But in that, even the sense inmy own spirituality, bringing
back to it, it's like we were sobrought in and assimilated.
(17:10):
We go all the way back, rightto the Aztecs and to the Mayans
for me, and going back in thosetimes, that what we believed in
and what we taught was so wrongand it was wrong right To the
fact that now, even when peoplehave to, if you're growing in
your spiritual practice and it'sgoing to come to a point that
you're going to have to face,quote the fears of your
(17:31):
ancestors that were told whatthey were doing was wrong, what
their practices were was wrong,right, what their traditions
were was wrong, and then youknow, coming to that part of
like breaking that down andunderstanding, you know why
people thought it was wrong andhow it was, but thought, power.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, and that goes.
So my grandfather I hadmentioned was a communist and an
atheist, and my paternalgrandfather because he saw
Christianity as being a tool ofslavery and completely rejected
it and he was not going to becontrolled and that was like a
very big thing that he taughthis kids.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
I understand that it was, though.
Oh yeah, look at the holism,look at the traditions that we
have to learn about it was atool of oppression.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
And so, and I think, sort of as I've gone on this
journey, that I've always beenon this journey, I've always
been this person who's beencurious about who I am in the
world and my place in it and myconnection to this larger thing,
and it felt like something Icouldn't necessarily talk about
out loud because it that aspectof questioning who I am on the
(18:47):
planet, and then the universewas construed as being religion,
which was construed as thenbeing, like you know, an uncle
Tom, or being sucked intowhiteness or, you know, sleep
mentality and all that kind ofstuff which I don't see it like
that.
And so it was a long timebefore I felt comfortable even
(19:10):
even talking about these thingsout loud.
And I still get, you know, thatflash of like tightness in my
stomach, like, oh God, mymother's going to be rolling her
eyes or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And this conversation .
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, because I think there's still this, this idea
that spirituality is connectedto organized religion.
So it's not a conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yes, the other day, Tuesday, while I was in my
religion and culture class, theywere actually talking about how
spirituality is like the numberone thing coming up right now.
You know it's not about thereligion or fit in, it's
actually the fast.
They forget how they named it.
They were like it's not areligion but it's very fast
growing and it's the fastestgrowing thing right now.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
It's.
I think it's really powerful.
I think I am.
I am more whole in my body thanI have ever been.
I think, because I haveembraced this idea that I'm more
than this, this thing that Isort of walk around with.
I was listening to Wayne Dyer asI was walking my dog this
(20:19):
morning and he was talking aboutyou know how we shed ourselves
every seven years, you know, foressentially a new body, which
is kind of fascinating if youthink about it.
Right, if you shed all of your,I don't have any of the cells
that I did as a kid.
So how to how, who am I?
Yeah, like I got myself in aknot thinking about it.
(20:44):
I was like, wait, wait, like itgives you this really
incredible understanding, thatof consciousness.
Right, if your cells are alwayschanging and we're in this form
and we're, you know, it's likethis idea that our body is
constantly just moving andchanging.
So what makes us consistentinside, I mean, is it our soul,
(21:05):
in our, in our consciousness?
And I think it's a reallyimportant conversation that
we're able to have now.
But being able to have thatconversation away from the glare
of whiteness, I think, isreally important, and it can get
(21:26):
messy and you know, and noteverybody has to agree, and I
think that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
I know?
Did you listen to the um sidenote?
Did you listen to the podcastthat we did with Aaron?
Did you ever re-listen to it?
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No, not, since we recorded it.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I think I sent you the link.
Uh, I'll try to.
Yeah, I'm saying that to youguys because we just did a pot.
We recorded a podcast um, meand Onika together on another
podcast platform and it wasspirituality through the eyes of
BIPOC or something like that.
Um, and it brought in some ofthese topics that even we're
talking about today a little bitUm, but I find I find it where.
(22:04):
Again, you guys, I'm going toplay back into what Onika says
Like we're just having aconversation right now.
I, you know I don't want you tothink like I'm not racist
Sounds weird to say that but I'msaying that in the sense that
you made a comment right now onout of what did you say?
Out of having this conversation, out of the glare of whiteness,
and I wanted to be like are weever out of?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
the glare of whiteness.
Um, I think you know what I do.
I think right now, we we arebecause we can acknowledge that
is, you know it's, it's aroundbut it doesn't.
It's.
It's informing our conversationbecause of our experiences, but
we aren't speaking to thatgroup of people.
(22:47):
Like you might have to do somecatch up homework to to
understand some things thatIsabelle and I are talking about
, that you might not have to, um, if you are black and brown,
because there are some thingsthat are understood about our
experiences.
So I think that's what I mean,um, and I keep using Toni
Morrison as an example, but Ithink Toni Morrison freaking
(23:08):
lover user Um so you know all ofher books.
She, she spoke about the blackexperience and she spoke about
racism and a lot of the pain andtrauma of slavery, but she, um,
doesn't ever really referencewhite people at all in any of
her books.
And that is very powerfulbecause she's speaking to a
(23:30):
specific audience and thatdoesn't mean that everybody else
isn't welcome to read.
But she's reading, but she'slike this is who I'm talking to.
So I think you and I aretalking to our communities and
everybody else is welcome tolisten.
Um, but there's no contortingwho we are to try and make this
conversation acceptable, and soit could be sort of assimilated,
(23:54):
and there there will be plentyof people who might even be
listening, who pushed back andsay, well, what about this and
what about that?
And I am not here to addressany of that.
I'm speaking through myexperience in my body as a black
queer woman who teaches yogaand mindfulness and joy
(24:15):
practices and that, and that ismy lens by the way, toni
Morrison for me as a child, andToni Morrison, and, and I can
name a couple of other authors.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
We and I have had this conversation with other
people.
Um, in the sense that, as youknow, as an Hispanic, there
wasn't very many Hispanics thatspeak out on um, what it's like
for us.
You know what it's like beingbrown or what it's like feeling.
You know having thatsegregation or different things
(24:49):
Like we just don't.
Because in my, in my upbringing, it was about always
assimilating and not fitting itLike.
Assimilating is what I mean.
We were taught to assimilateand if you don't assimilate,
then we were obviously in thewrong.
Right, like we were in thewrong if we don't assimilate,
even by, like you brought upyour mother right?
So, like my grandfather andthings like that, like I'm I'm
(25:10):
probably the one that speaks outthe most and I think, towards
the end of it, my grandfatherwas always very prideful of you
know what he calls his La Rasa,you know his family, but um, in
his culture, but at the sametime, make sure you assimilate,
right.
So I say that, as there was nobooks for us, there was nobody
that was writing to say hearwhat it's the, the fight, here's
(25:33):
what it's like to you know todecolonize.
Here's what it's like to beproud of who you are.
Like we didn't have that.
There wasn't authors back then.
Now there is now, absolutelythere is.
But as a child I related toTony Morris and I related to
(25:53):
these black authors that werespeaking of things that yeah,
you know, speaking of thingsfrom their own experiences or
their ancestors experiences,because it was the close, most
closely related thing for me.
We didn't have any of that.
Like I didn't have that as achild.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
I didn't embrace a lot of this, though, until I was
in college.
So much of me just wanted tofly under the radar and to fit
in, because I felt like I wasalways sticking out, less in the
police school, but definitelyin elementary school.
Yeah, interesting it was really.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
It was really, it was really uncomfortable, it was I
agree, I felt I fit in inelementary school because in
elementary school I grew up inSouth San Diego, you know, is
predominantly Mexican, Mexican,black, like it was.
Just that was.
That was our predominant.
And then later on I moved intoan all white neighborhood and
that was the rest of my junior,high and high school.
(26:52):
So I always felt out of place.
I've always sought to try tofind.
I always lived in thatuncomfortability of like, who am
I?
Who am I?
What does this look like?
You know, I, like I've saidbefore, right, I'm not, I'm not
white, so I didn't fit in white,but I'm not Mexican enough for
the Mexicans and some of them,you know, is this like, where am
I and what?
(27:13):
What does that look like?
So I think I, especially inhigh school, I think I started
seeking more of that of justwanting to know like things.
But that's, that's.
All I had was the books.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And I always felt on the outside too.
And it's funny because I thinkif people I went to high school
with would hear me saying this,they'd be like you you had
friends, you were popular likewhat do you do?
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I made it too.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I don't.
I don't mean that I didn't havefriends right, but I never felt
like I fit in, even though Iwas invited to party, all that
kind of stuff.
It's not like I was a social, Iwas not a social outcast in any
way, shape or form, and I stillfelt terribly uncomfortable.
I did and didn't feel.
(28:04):
I don't think I started to feelcomfortable until I went to
college and took the majority ofmy classes were Africana
studies classes and English, andso I met kids who were like me
and who were, and if theyweren't like me they embraced me
(28:25):
.
Like the music that I listenedto wasn't so bananas and even
though I sounded that a way thatI did so did so many other of
the black kids.
I finally, like I finally metkind of my people when I went to
school and it was, it was kindof refreshing.
And then I still didn't quitefeel like I fit in because then
(28:45):
I was sort of navigating mysexual identity and orientation.
So I've always kind of feltlike you know, I've always been
a little bit on the edges ofeverything and I think that's
probably what led me to teach,you know, for so long at a place
like Rikers Island, wherepeople are sort of cast out,
because I think I always felt alittle bit cast out, even if it
(29:07):
was by my own doing sometimes.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
That's probably why we both do what we do.
Because I have a familycompletely Like.
I've always thought I don'tthink I really understood, even
though I think I've alwayssought to figure out who I was
or how I fit.
Because you know, even though Isay those things about my family
on the other side, here in SanDiego or in California, my
family has done a lot for thecommunity and there's like we're
literally in history books forwhat we've done for the
(29:32):
community and so I've alwayslike, well, you say this and
we're proud of this, but yet weassimilate in this way, like my
mind has always worked this way,but it probably wasn't until
later on, I think probably maybein my I don't know maybe my 30s
.
I think I really kind ofstarted connecting the dots as I
watched my kids, because Iwanted my kids to be really
(29:54):
proud of being Hispanic, Iwanted them to really come back
to their roots, and so I thinksomewhere through my children I
kind of started to do thedecolonization process and kind
of looking at those things, likeI feel that now and now I have
a sense of a big community, likewhy I'm like, okay, these are
my people and this is why I fitin, but I definitely didn't feel
(30:18):
that growing up at all.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, and you know I think it's interesting because
I'm 52.
And in the late 80s, that'swhen Cosby Show became sort of
like a standard of you know, ofa new standard of blackness.
And for all of the people whosaid that the Cosby Show wasn't
(30:45):
realistic, I watched it and Ifinally saw myself on TV.
I was like, oh, that's my fan,that's my fan.
Like, no, that's me, like I'mVanessa, I wanted to be Denise,
but I'm Vanessa, like I'm thatperson, my parents are like that
, my parents have friends likethat, like it was really very
(31:07):
affirming, like holy shit, Ifeel seen.
And it wasn't until that pointthat I and then a different
world came out and I was like,oh my God, I, you know, it was
just so refreshing to sort ofsee my experience reflected.
And then, as elements of blackculture became part of
(31:28):
mainstream culture.
I think there was this sensethat you know society was trying
to become like post-racial,that there was going to be, you
know, everybody was going to beokay with all different kinds of
cultures.
But I saw whiteness sort ofadopt elements of everybody's
(31:49):
culture, but withoutappreciating the trauma.
Right, what would Amanda Steelesay?
They want our rhythm but don'twant our blues, and I think it's
so true.
It's so true Like and I don'tjust even mean black culture, I
mean people taking Indian nameswhen they become yoga teachers.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Oh, everybody's a shaman.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Yes, yes, all that kind of stuff, like then, as
aspects of our culture, becameacceptable.
It was like wearing us ascostumes, which I started to get
really infuriated with.
And then I even had to checkmyself when I started to study
yoga.
Like wait a minute, what am Idoing?
Like I don't say Namasteanymore Because it's not my,
(32:35):
it's not my culture.
I've studied yoga and Iappreciate it, and there's some
really great teachers who talkabout.
If you're going to say Namaste,how are you staying in and why
are you saying it?
But I had to even really notice.
Am I appropriating elements oflanguage, as I've been on my own
journey too?
Speaker 1 (32:55):
That's so true.
Like I'm just listening to youand I was like, yeah, it wasn't.
It was like we're going to havethis, but now it's just been a
blending of we're going to takethis, and then we're going to
take this, and then we're goingto take this, and I think that
brings us always back to what wetalk about.
Then we're now once again seenas okay, this is the right way
of doing it, but the way thatyou do it is the wrong way.
So you know, just to FYI, andit's like no, that's not, that's
(33:19):
not at all.
You know, let's just not how itworks.
And so we're right back to again.
It's like we're always in this,like perpetual cycle of like,
okay, let me reclaim it back,let me reclaim it back, let me
reclaim it back.
And it's like.
It's like you guys, I'll behonest, it's like you have to
stop taking what isn't yours totake.
(33:40):
And if you wish to understandit that's a completely different
story, absolutely Thenunderstand it, learn it,
acknowledge it, grow in it, likewhatever, however you want to
be it, but you can't take it asyours in that way.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And quote it.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, there are so manyteachers out there who just
quote things from like theBuddha or other people Like
those aren't your words.
It doesn't take anything awayfrom you to properly give
acknowledgement of who youstudied and where you studied,
(34:17):
and in fact I think it shows thedepth of your experience that
you can tie together differentpeople that you've studied from
to sort of make a larger point.
It shows how diverse you are inyour learning, rather than just
trying to hoard everything andsay that you came up with all of
(34:38):
this stuff and sort of thinkthat you're now the expert,
you're now the guru.
Because that's whiteness?
Because if we're talking aboutindigenous practices, it is
centered around this idea ofcommunity and collective
consciousness, and I think thatthat is really important.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
It's so interesting.
Okay, I'm going to say I'mgoing to pose a question right
now, but it's like.
It's like because of the waythings have been so misconstrued
with language in itself, I findmyself either hesitant to use
language that I feel I'm allowedto use because it's like it's
overly used or it's been usedthe wrong way so many times.
I hold myself back often fromlike speaking certain things
because I'm just like no, like Idon't want to trendset with
(35:22):
that, or I don't want to jumpinto that.
You know, one of the things Iwas going to say, just
piggybacking on this, is howlanguage is often intertwined
with spirituality and culture,right?
So just a question, because Ihad a few how has this
impression of indigenouslanguages Okay, it's going to be
a deep question, guys that arelistening how has this
(35:43):
impression of indigenouslanguages during colonialization
affected your spiritualknowledge and beliefs?
So, just exactly what I'msaying, right?
Like, like I hold back what Iwant to say in my knowledge, or
what I know, and even in myupbringing, because of the way
(36:04):
things have been assimilated, Idon't teach in certain ways and
it affects what I sometimesteach on or how I show up.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah.
So I think I'm thinking of acouple of things.
One, six or seven months ago, Iwas on a panel for a virtual
conference and the panel was ashit show.
It was terrible.
The moderator was awful, she'sall caught up in her nonsense
and she's asking really racistquestions.
(36:36):
It was terrible and it wasawful.
And I was on a panel with thisone guy of South Asian descent
and he started going off aboutpeople appropriating culture and
language.
That was not there.
There you go, and I heard whathe was saying and I pushed back
(36:59):
a little bit, I think to thesurprise of a couple of people
who are on the panel, because Iwas like, yes, and as somebody
who is of African descent, whojust recently found out where
she is from, I do appreciatewhat you're saying.
Let's make sure that we knowwho we're talking to, because I
(37:21):
don't know who to study, becauseI didn't know who I was because
I was taken from where I'm from.
So, yes, sir, I understand whatyou're saying, but let's also
acknowledge that there's a wholebunch of us who don't know
where we're from, going backthree generations, because there
are no records.
And so it's like this dance,right, like it's a very
(37:47):
difficult and challenging dance,and this is where I believe and
this is where I think thespirituality comes in, where I
start to know and recognize andfeel parts of my culture.
When I hear things like a drum,for example, I just had this
conversation with my mother.
She hates drums.
When I hear drums, I know for afact that I am African.
(38:12):
I just know it and I can'texplain it, but I know it.
I hear drums and I am beingspoken to and it is something
very powerful that I can't putinto words.
It is just a feeling.
You're saying that completely.
Yeah, so I don't know if Icompletely answered the question
, but I think that is how I'velearned to navigate it and being
(38:34):
able to know my DNA so I canresearch Personally Nigerian and
Cameroonian.
I've started to do someresearch there, but I can walk
there and be because it's so farremoved from who I am.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So one of the things that often comes up with me and
my clients is people asking howdo I get to know my ancestors or
who I am, when I have no ideawhat that is?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (39:01):
I would say to study as much as you can to find out.
But I think for black Americansthere is an element of our
spirituality that is in ourculture and that's where I think
there's this connection betweenblackness being a culture and
also a spirituality, because ofthe very unique experience that
(39:25):
we have in this country, thatthere are elements of our
culture that is spiritual.
I also think if you ask to beconnected with it and you do
that study, you can't figure itout.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
No, I don't think that sounds like.
I think that makes sense.
I think one of the biggestthings for me it's interesting
just a little bit.
Mine is that my okay.
So what's really interesting inthis?
Just a full, quick picture mystepmother, who's white growing
up, worked with the indigenouscommunity in trading.
So growing up I had a lot of,yes, my own stuff, but then
(40:05):
there was indigenous stuff thatI had learned and practiced as a
kid just because she was partof that community and worked in
that community and later on,through my own work and my own
meditations, my own guidancepeople, I always had indigenous
guides and I'm just like I don'tknow this, but I know it's
somewhere in our roots, I canfeel it in my blood, even though
(40:28):
no one's talking about it, andso much so that I even in sweat
lodges when I've gotten invitedto sit, they're like you are.
There's so much more to likeyou're indigenous.
We can see it the way you teachyour beliefs, like what you say
are things that you wouldn'teven know if you weren't it
wasn't in your blood of beingindigenous and I'm like, well,
(40:52):
it's not.
No one's saying anything, right?
So just last year before beforeI actually got my ancestral.
I had did the DNA.
Before I got it back, my fathercame to find out that he was a
hunt.
He was like 100% or like 90something percent yaki fool and
basically the name of theselling of the land.
(41:15):
When the yaki's were gettingkilled off, like they had some
people change their names andbasically our land was stolen,
which I guess there's like myanswer, like yeah, it's in
history you can actually readabout your great great
grandfather.
We're finding out more rightnow that the land was stolen
because of he had to change hisname and all the stuff to hide.
And I'm like, oh, this allmakes sense now, like everything
(41:38):
was like I told you all that wewere indigenous this whole time
, when everybody's like what areyou doing?
And I'm like it's us.
So I think you make a goodpoint when you're like you'll
know, I think you just knowinside yourself like okay, this
is you know, this is what it isor this is what I am.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Which is why also and this also goes back to what you
and I are always talking aboutyou have to know yourself.
You have to know what'shappening inside you so you can
start to hear messages that arehappening inside you and that
are being told, so you're notignoring them or just thinking
it's some random coincidence, oryou know, or you write it off
(42:23):
to some weird experience, andthat people are talking to you.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
So I know that, like now, looking at spirituality and
the way that it is and like wesee, like you've even touched on
it today, about how, likethere's been so much has been
picked up here and there andhere and there, right, it's like
a blend of cultures, of peopleteaching various topics that
some just shouldn't be teaching.
Sorry, I'm going to say it,right, and I feel like I'm even
listening to this conversationand I'm like it like brings this
(42:56):
whole other element right,Decolonizing within yourself.
Right, and understanding like Ihave to decolonize my family, I
have to decolonize my roots, Ihave to decolonize what I went
through through my childhood.
I've decolonized all thesethings.
Now I'm in the process of now Igot to decolonize spirituality
as well.
Do you know what I mean?
You're like now I got to breakthat stuff and so allowing
(43:16):
yourself like this is justsomething to I guess I wasn't
expecting to say this, but I'mgoing to say it like allowing
yourself to decolonize your ownspiritual practices, to really
discover what that looks like inreconnecting you back to your
cultural roots, you know, andresisting the impact of, you
know, colonization, in a sense.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
I love that.
I think it's so important.
And also, and also showing upas you are as a teacher and
you've been doing your work.
That also helps decolonizecertain practices when you are
teaching through your lens,right, that's also an important.
(44:02):
I think that's really importantthat I show up who I am and I
don't.
I don't not talk about who I amand through the teachings,
because that is, that's a partof my experience and I think
that I think that matters andwhich is why I think it's so
(44:22):
important that a lot ofdifferent teachers for a lot of
different experiences choose toteach, so it's not just all told
from this one lens.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah, and I think that right now is becoming the
beauty of it.
But I think, unfortunately,especially going back into how
long I've been practicing thisor how long I've been in this,
it's that, you know, I think Ialways thought go back and when
we talk about spiritualbypassing, is the fact that so
much during my spiritualinvolvement, right was
assimilating, so much was it wasassimilating into certain
(44:56):
things of, like, the dominantcultures beliefs, the dominant
cultures beliefs, thespirituality, the way
spirituality was taught, youknow.
And so now, like, for me it's abreakdown, but educating is a
big part of it.
I feel like that's why, if Ithink it's really important as
I'm gonna use the word BIPOC,but as a BIPOC teacher, as a
(45:16):
leader, it's important that weare educated in our, you know,
cultural studies, our ethnicstudies, you know, like I said
right now, taking religion andculture studies, like, so that
we're able to break down andhelp people to, you know, see
things in a different light andunderstand stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Absolutely, because we certainly have our own, you
know, phd in life experience.
But we are also bothacademically trained.
You know, like I amacademically trained in Africana
studies, women's studies andpolitical science.
Yeah, I also have my own livedexperience of being in this body
and living in this country.
So I think when we're bothspeaking about these things,
(45:53):
we're speaking from lifeexperience, but we're also
speaking because we study thisstuff and I think that's
important and I think it matters, like I think it really matters
.
I don't think everybody agreesand I think you know people are
entitled to that, you know.
I think you know, even thinkingpolitically, like black people
who are conservative orRepublicans and all that kind of
(46:13):
stuff, you know, do I want todiscount their experience?
I mean, I agree with them, butyou know we're not a modelist
and I think that happens inspiritual practices too.
Like, you know, people who areblack and brown and indigenous,
who have adopted Europeanculture, religious culture and
(46:34):
spiritual culture and doubledown on it and so what would you
say, though, in the sense thatso much of spirituality is
rooted in indigenous beliefs?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
and how do people respectively engage with and
learn from these practices whilewithout appropriating?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
I don't know.
I think that's a really goodquestion, but I think we even
acknowledge that elements ofChristianity have been rooted
and a lot of naturalspirituality that they just
pretend right and I'm I'mactually asking that I'm more
telling because I do not know alot about Christianity but isn't
even like Easter come from,Like the way that we celebrate
(47:16):
Easter is not the way thatEaster right, there's a little.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I mean that's like.
I mean that's not part of anyChristianity.
I mean Easter is about, youknow, the rising of Christ.
That's why we celebrate.
It's supposed to be aboutChrist rising.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
And all of that stuff does come from other.
I think European pagantraditions right A lot of it
does.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
There's actually a really interesting there is I
have to look up.
I cannot remember the nameright now.
It's really interesting if youlook at the story of Christ and
and and view it.
There's actually I cannotremember, I'm gonna have to look
it up but there's a Greek storyon a God that actually mimics
(48:03):
the same story of Christ.
That was written years before.
Wow, the Bible was written.
So it's this whole thing.
I read this whole book.
That just was like I kind ofleft it like what it's on my
bookshelf right now.
I can't remember the name, butit basically was like this is
the Christ that we're talkedabout, but let's review actually
(48:25):
where this story could haveactually came from, because
these are stories that werewritten years before the Christ
story came, and so, yeah, so Iguess I say that there's some
elements of appropriation thatare even recent in European
culture that people don't evenrecognize.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
I think it's my responsibility to move in a way
where I'm trying to do the leastamount of harm that I can.
So I do my best to study andappreciate and what I learn.
I don't do certain things likeI mentioned.
I don't really say not, mustsay anymore, and some ways that
I learned yoga.
(49:08):
I realize now a lot of that wasappropriated and it wasn't a
way that I should have beenteaching yoga and I don't
anymore and I acknowledged thatI learned what I learned because
that's how I learned it andthen I had to sort of let that
go.
So I think as I get moreappropriated and gain more
knowledge, I give grace to thatversion of me who didn't know
(49:31):
better and then adopt and sortof move forward.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
I want to say something on that, because you
were saying I learned what Ilearned.
Look, here's for the listenersIf you're guided and you want to
learn yoga or meditationinstructor or even Reiki or
whatever, learn it, go ahead andbe learned, but allow yourself
to shape that to what it needsto be shaped for you and your
culture and who you are, ratherthan just sticking to the lines
(49:56):
of that you know, like you'redoing for yoga and the same
thing like, yes, I certify and Iteach people in Reiki, but my
Reiki is so different, it's amore in guiding people to their
own cultural beliefs, like I.
Have people that are like, howdo I do Reiki and incorporate
Olympias, you know, becausethat's a big thing for us, right
, and I'm like, well, they'rekind of one of the same.
But if you want to incorporatea full blown traditional Olympia
(50:19):
, by all means incorporate itwith the Reiki.
Why not?
Why not?
Let your cultural practicesbreathe into it?
Because that's the gift thatyou are given that I fully want
to say nobody can take.
Nobody can take that gift.
That is your beliefs, that isyour traditions, that is part of
your heritage and there's areason, I think, that so many
(50:43):
BIPOC, teachers, leaders,healers are rising, because I
think that, no matter how muchsociety, no matter how much they
have tried to take it from us,it's still part of our blood,
it's part of our DNA and it'sgoing to find its way to come
out.
And I think that's the beauty oflike fine, we're going to learn
and underquote what you'regoing to call it Right, but
(51:05):
we're going to make it ours andwe're going to show you how to
make it ours, yours, you know,and to feel safe in that.
And that's the other part, Ithink, with decolonization is
that feeling safe and allowingyourself to feel safe in who you
are, because we were taughtthat we and ourselves were not
safe.
We were taught we're not safe.
You know it's not safe tobelieve what you believe in.
(51:26):
It's not safe to look the wayyou look, like everything about
you is a red flag.
So now you're like how do I goabout and speaking out and who
am I when I've literally havebeen wired to not feel safe?
Speaker 2 (51:42):
And to think that my exact, my entire being is wrong,
right, yeah, and that thattakes grieving.
I think grieving is a yes,that's huge.
That we don't talk.
I think you and I do it sort ofnaturally, but it's an
important part of the processthat this isn't just always this
(52:03):
just happy go lucky thing.
There's an element where I wasreally angry and sad that I had
to go back and do this work.
Like what was that?
I was mad, right, I was mad,yeah.
And then like how much time youknow and I put this in air
quotes how much time have Iwasted and you know, and feeling
(52:26):
brokenhearted and allowingmyself to go through that
processing, breathe it, not justfor me but for my ancestors
before me yes.
All of those people who were,who had to hide, who weren't
allowed to be who they were, whowere killed.
All of those things are also inme, and having to hold that and
(52:49):
then from that also finding aplace to celebrate and stand in
joy and be really proud aboutthat, it's definitely a strength
in it yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
There's definitely a strength in it, but I think
grieving is a very, very bigthing and I think that's a good
warning too, and I'm gonna be.
I'm gonna say it's a warningthat as you do this work,
there's gonna be a lot ofemotions that rise up.
You know there's gonna be a lotthat you may be really angry
about.
Depending on how deep you go.
You're gonna find out thingsthat you were like.
This was not taught in myhistory books.
(53:21):
You know, I think recently,what I was like reading about
the lynchings of Mexico.
How many Mexicans were lynched?
Who the heck?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
ever talks about us being lynched no one talks about
it.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
I know Like nobody, and I was just, and we were
lynched for being successful.
That's why we were lynched.
Oh, you're having a successfulbusiness lynched.
You know, even right now I'mtalking about it, I'm getting
emotional and it's like you guyshave to like know, you have to
allow yourself to grieve foryour ancestors, and you're gonna
find, hey, I'm really angry,but none of this was addressed.
(53:54):
I'm really angry about this andthere is a thing that I went
through where I was like wait asecond, am I racist now?
Because I'm like mad at this,I'm frustrated at this, you know
.
Well, that's what I had to kindof look at.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Also racism and racism to be racist.
There's an element of powerthat is a part of racism.
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah, you don't have.
So yes, I understand that, butI'm just saying my own notions,
Prejudice maybe but Right.
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
But I think no, I think you're right, isabel.
There's an element of rage thathas to be acknowledged, which
so many of practices that aretaught through a European lens.
Speaker 1 (54:40):
No rage.
Speaker 2 (54:40):
Try to watch over, try to push your rage down, tell
you to swallow it.
And you know why?
Because they know that there'severy reason that we should feel
rage, that we should be angry,and we are easier to control
when we're happy and smiling andsaying that everything is okay.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
And you know what Sad is they're still doing it this
day, like look at all thebookbans.
Have you seen all the bookbans?
Oh yeah, like that's insane,like I'm just like we're right
back at it again.
Yeah, like, here we go again.
You know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
But just my, conversations like this are
incredibly important for us tobe able to have with each other.
That's why I think some ofthese affinity spaces are really
important, and it's not a wayto segregate.
It is a way for people to beable to come together and talk
out of that glare that I wastalking about, so we can just
(55:36):
share and be in community andjust be ourselves and let our
shoulders drop and sigh and nothave to catch people up.
I'm not trying to catch you upon the barbecue because I don't
have time.
This is my time to talk toIsabel.
I'm talking to Isabel and I'mnot filling you in.
You know you put raisins inyour potato salad and there's
(55:57):
nothing I can do about that.
But this is our conversationthat we're having right now.
You're welcome to listen, like,listen, like not stop at you,
but sometimes we just gotta beable to relax.
Yeah, it's so, it's it's, it'svital.
I think it's absolutely vitaland there's nothing.
(56:18):
We're taught to think thatthere's something wrong about it
.
Right, like groups of black andbrown people can't gather
together because you know we'retrying to like start a riot, so.
So it's even seen as being sortof subversive for us just to
gather and relax.
There's this really greatdocumentary called the Dharma
Brothers and it is about a groupof guys who were at Angola
(56:41):
Prison who started meditating.
They would get together, they'dtalk about the Dharma and
meditate.
It was actually seen as being athreat because these guys and a
lot of them were lifers werejust sitting and being quiet
because it was so againsteverything else that there must
(57:02):
be.
They must be up to something.
What are they up to?
Why are they?
just sitting and meditating.
What are they really doing?
And I think it those kinds ofthings shape the system, like us
talking and celebrating who weare and crying about who we are
and feeling joy and all of thatkind of stuff.
(57:25):
It breaks, it, chisels away atthe system.
The more that we step into ourpower, the more that we move
from a place of love it all sortof chips away.
There's this sense that weshould always be.
If we're always fighting, we'renot paying attention on what's
really going on.
So the more that we can be inrooms together and talk and
(57:45):
chill and understand each otherwe don't even have to like each
other, but if we can understandand appreciate and love each
other, we have this ability tobe strong.
We are the global majority inyou.
We make up Right.
Yeah, we are the globalmajority.
It's us, yeah, and so I thinkit's important that we, that we
(58:06):
sometimes get together and talkabout and remember it, and
that's why I think our podcastis really special.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
It is.
It is, I agree.
All right, that was good.
Any other notes you want togive to the people?
Speaker 2 (58:22):
No, I am.
I'm so glad that you had ushave this conversation.
I love this conversation, yeahme too.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
I love this conversation.
Speaker 2 (58:31):
I'm sure we'll have more.
All right, yeah, I just want tocome.
Speaker 1 (58:34):
I think you guys are looking for any resources or
you're looking to know more.
I think you can either reachout to you know me or Onika,
separately or together, whateveryou guys want to do.
And yeah, all right, onika hassome great book references.
I have some of my own bookreferences, so if you're like
where can I find more knowledgeor read about this, give us a DM
(58:56):
.
Yeah, all right, we will talkto you guys later.
Have a good one, bye.
Speaker 2 (59:35):
You.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.