August 26, 2025 • 10 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Alcohol is the solution to the problem, and it works
until it stops working. Even though I had accomplished certain
things as a swimmer and had sort of distinguished myself academically,
I was still very much a naval gazer.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You know. I couldn't talk to a girl. I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I just wasn't comfortable in my own skin. I felt like,
and you hear this in AA a lot, like everybody
else had the rule book for life, and I was
sitting on the outside, like marveling at how people seem to,
you know, gracefully navigate the world, where I just felt,
you know, anxious all the time. And alcohol solved that problem,
Like I have a lot of love for it, Like
(00:45):
it gave me social tools that I lacked and taught
me how to be a social animal in a social situation.
Suddenly I could go to a party and crack a
joke and flirt with a girl and do all these
things that were beyond my capacity to handle prior to that.
So it's not all bad. Like it worked, you know
what I mean, which is why I doubled down on it.
(01:07):
Like the cure for alcoholism isn't removing alcohol. Alcohol is
is the solution to the problem, and it works until
it stops working, and it took a while before it
stopped working in my case. But the ism remains. Once
you remove the substance, you can't blame anyone else. And
it's not about anything external. It's only about your relationship
(01:30):
with you. And you're still going to be, you know,
impulsed by your innate biases. And however, your hardwiring has
set you up to you know, perceive the world, but
you get that extra little moment of recognition to course correct,
you know. And you know, I would say that I've
become you know, I got sober in ninety eight, so
(01:55):
I've been in this thing for a long time. And
when I came in, I just thought, oh, it's drug
addicts and alcohols, that's what addiction is. But I've become
convinced that addiction lives on this massive spectrum and we
are all victims of addiction on some level, some mild
and some extreme, from you know, the guy lying in
(02:18):
the gutter with a bottle, to the guy who can't
pull the needle out of his arm, to the compulsive
scrolling while we're taking you know, or the guy who
or the woman who who goes from bad relationship to
bad relationship, you know, repeating a certain pattern because there's
something about that that they can't there's a compulsivity to
that that they can't control. So I think thinking about
(02:41):
addiction more broadly makes it applicable and instructive and useful
for people as they develop enough self awareness to have
objectivity on how they maneuver the world and the daily
habits that they continually find themselves, you know, falling prey
(03:01):
to that are leading their lives in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And the impulse to addiction. This was the way that
we're wired. It doesn't have to all be bad. Because
I knew someone. I dated her before I you know,
got with my wife, and her name is Maya, And
we actually did a podcast on gratitude, and what I
found about her is she had a daily gratitude practice
that was unbroken for seven years, and she was addicted
(03:26):
to gratitude, like literally addicted to gratitude. And it was amazing.
She was such a happy person. Yeah, she forged that addiction.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
It is a practice, right, Absolutely, it didn't come She
didn't necessarily wake up feeling grateful, not by dint of
you know, her allegiance to that practice becomes that which
she aspired to become.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And it wasn't a it was a thirty minute practice
like it was like a legit practice that she did.
She had a whole curriculum that she had developed and
being grateful for different aspects of her life. And so
that's possible with the same mechanism that drives people to
all of the things that you mentioned prior, the same
mechanism can kick in and get you addicted to those things.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
The kind of final chapter in my alcoholism just to
disabuse everybody of any kind of romantic Bukowski notion of
what it was like. I was not, you know, petting
the Great American novel or doing anything creative. I was
by myself, drinking alone, often waking up in the morning
and having a vocatonic in the shower and working as
(04:32):
a lawyer and trying to sneak drinks throughout the day.
Like it was exhausting.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It was.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
It was sad and lonely. I had burned bridges with friends.
I was unreliable, My parents didn't want anything to do
with me, and you know, ultimately I had a marriage
that ended on the honeymoon, like I had, you know,
I created a lot of chaos and wreckage and destroyed
a lot of relationships and just became you know, irresponsible,
(05:00):
unreliable member of society, living like two blocks from here,
sleeping on a bear mattress on the floor of a
apartment with no furniture, and you know, the phone wasn't ringing.
I was I'd gotten two DUIs. I was looking at
possible jail time, I was going to get fired from
my job, and just woke up one day, you know,
(05:22):
after a bender and nothing particularly terrible had happened that night,
but I had kind of reached that nadier where I
was like, I can't do this anymore. And I had
been seeing an addiction therapist and he was like are
you ready, and he's like, I got a bed for you.
And ended up going up to Oregon and checking into
a rehab thinking I was going to do a quick
(05:43):
couple week spin dry because I was so important and
I had to get back to my job, and you know,
I had this epiphany, you know, coming to there that
I you know, my best thinking. I thought, wow, I'm
this smart guy. I was literally you know, institutionalized, and
that landed on me, like a ton of bricks, and
I just realized, like, I better figure this out because
(06:05):
the future is not looking bright, and started opening up
and taking direction and listening and letting go of how
I thought things should be, and for the first time,
was honest about the things that I was doing, in
the ways that I was behaving and the you know,
I remember accounts At telling me like, you know, you
(06:26):
have a case of alcoholism that we typically only see
in like sixty five year old men who come in here,
who have been drinking for the better part of their lifetime.
And if you don't, if you don't get this, like
you're probably gonna die. And you just said it so
point blank, like I'll never forget it, and it scared
the shot of me. So he said, I think you
(06:46):
I know that you think you're going to spin out
of here in twenty eight days, but we think you
should stick around. And I just said, I'll stay here
as long as you think I should should be here.
And I ended up living there for one hundred days,
which is kind of a long time to be in rehab, sure,
but that saved my life. There's so much capability that
resides within all of us, and you know, like yourself.
(07:07):
I've had the privilege of sitting across from so many
people who've done extraordinary things, and you see the humanity
in all of them. I mean, we project this superhero
quality onto all these people, but they're all just human
beings who had a dream and worked hard to achieve it.
And it's inspiring to really own and grasp the idea
(07:28):
that that, you know, we're all sitting on top of
deep reservoirs of potential that remain untapped, and our job
is to, you know, figure out how to authentically, you know,
connect with that voice that is telling us to you know,
unlock something and share it with the world. And if
you can do that and then share that story and
(07:50):
tie it in some way to service as a teacher
or in some way that can inspire other people or
pave the way for a better world, I mean that
to me is the recipe for a good, purpose driven,
fulfilling life. I'm much more focused on what I'm doing
today and how I can you know, leverage these tools
(08:12):
that I've learned to ameliorate, you know, the disease as
it as it rears its head and other kind of
behavioral stuff like I don't it's very rare that I
would crave alcohol these days, Like I don't think about it,
it's been so long, but but I still have the
ism and that pops up in all kinds of ways
and makes me an apt or resentful or frustrated or
(08:32):
you know, grinding on this problem. Like we were talking
when I walked in, Like we're both enjoying amazing lives,
Like we're very privileged to get to do what we
get to do and meet these amazing people and support
our families, you know by doing it. So why don't
I wake up inherently grateful every day? You know? It's
it's like that's what I use most of my mental
(08:55):
energy trying to, you know, focus.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
On when you were telling yourself, you know that you
got to keep going, you need to suffer more because
this is about suffering tolerance. Ultimately, you have to coach yourself.
You have to be a good coach to yourself in
this process because it is very very much mental. What's
your kind of inner monologue as the inner coach of
yourself in these points where you need to push yourself
(09:19):
through the suffering.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think for me, it's all about being present and
comfortable with the discomfort, you know. I think if you
get caught up in like I got to make it
to hear or you know, I'm thinking about some destination,
then it detracts from your ability to get there, because
(09:43):
you can't get there if you're not anchored in the
moment that you're actually in. And I think what happens
is time becomes very malleable. Like if I'm doing an
eight hour ride and you're in this like suffering state
of mind, you're not used to that, it's going to
feel like eternity. But when you build up to it,
like suddenly an eight hour ride feels like a two
(10:03):
hour ride.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So there is a weird thing that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Happens with that that I think any endurance athlete would
would recognize. But for me, it's just it's about being
It's always bringing myself back to the present moment and
not trying to run away from it or distract myself
from it.
Alcohol is the solution to the problem, and it works
until it stops working. Even though I had accomplished certain
things as a swimmer and had sort of distinguished myself academically,
I was still very much a naval gazer.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You know. I couldn't talk to a girl. I couldn't.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I just wasn't comfortable in my own skin. I felt like,
and you hear this in AA a lot, like everybody
else had the rule book for life, and I was
sitting on the outside, like marveling at how people seem to,
you know, gracefully navigate the world, where I just felt,
you know, anxious all the time. And alcohol solved that problem,
Like I have a lot of love for it, Like
(00:45):
it gave me social tools that I lacked and taught
me how to be a social animal in a social situation.
Suddenly I could go to a party and crack a
joke and flirt with a girl and do all these
things that were beyond my capacity to handle prior to that.
So it's not all bad. Like it worked, you know
what I mean, which is why I doubled down on it.
(01:07):
Like the cure for alcoholism isn't removing alcohol. Alcohol is
is the solution to the problem, and it works until
it stops working, and it took a while before it
stopped working in my case. But the ism remains. Once
you remove the substance, you can't blame anyone else. And
it's not about anything external. It's only about your relationship
(01:30):
with you. And you're still going to be, you know,
impulsed by your innate biases. And however, your hardwiring has
set you up to you know, perceive the world, but
you get that extra little moment of recognition to course correct,
you know. And you know, I would say that I've
become you know, I got sober in ninety eight, so
(01:55):
I've been in this thing for a long time. And
when I came in, I just thought, oh, it's drug
addicts and alcohols, that's what addiction is. But I've become
convinced that addiction lives on this massive spectrum and we
are all victims of addiction on some level, some mild
and some extreme, from you know, the guy lying in
(02:18):
the gutter with a bottle, to the guy who can't
pull the needle out of his arm, to the compulsive
scrolling while we're taking you know, or the guy who
or the woman who who goes from bad relationship to
bad relationship, you know, repeating a certain pattern because there's
something about that that they can't there's a compulsivity to
that that they can't control. So I think thinking about
(02:41):
addiction more broadly makes it applicable and instructive and useful
for people as they develop enough self awareness to have
objectivity on how they maneuver the world and the daily
habits that they continually find themselves, you know, falling prey
(03:01):
to that are leading their lives in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And the impulse to addiction. This was the way that
we're wired. It doesn't have to all be bad. Because
I knew someone. I dated her before I you know,
got with my wife, and her name is Maya, And
we actually did a podcast on gratitude, and what I
found about her is she had a daily gratitude practice
that was unbroken for seven years, and she was addicted
(03:26):
to gratitude, like literally addicted to gratitude. And it was amazing.
She was such a happy person. Yeah, she forged that addiction.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
It is a practice, right, Absolutely, it didn't come She
didn't necessarily wake up feeling grateful, not by dint of
you know, her allegiance to that practice becomes that which
she aspired to become.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
And it wasn't a it was a thirty minute practice
like it was like a legit practice that she did.
She had a whole curriculum that she had developed and
being grateful for different aspects of her life. And so
that's possible with the same mechanism that drives people to
all of the things that you mentioned prior, the same
mechanism can kick in and get you addicted to those things.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
The kind of final chapter in my alcoholism just to
disabuse everybody of any kind of romantic Bukowski notion of
what it was like. I was not, you know, petting
the Great American novel or doing anything creative. I was
by myself, drinking alone, often waking up in the morning
and having a vocatonic in the shower and working as
(04:32):
a lawyer and trying to sneak drinks throughout the day.
Like it was exhausting.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
It was.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
It was sad and lonely. I had burned bridges with friends.
I was unreliable, My parents didn't want anything to do
with me, and you know, ultimately I had a marriage
that ended on the honeymoon, like I had, you know,
I created a lot of chaos and wreckage and destroyed
a lot of relationships and just became you know, irresponsible,
(05:00):
unreliable member of society, living like two blocks from here,
sleeping on a bear mattress on the floor of a
apartment with no furniture, and you know, the phone wasn't ringing.
I was I'd gotten two DUIs. I was looking at
possible jail time, I was going to get fired from
my job, and just woke up one day, you know,
(05:22):
after a bender and nothing particularly terrible had happened that night,
but I had kind of reached that nadier where I
was like, I can't do this anymore. And I had
been seeing an addiction therapist and he was like are
you ready, and he's like, I got a bed for you.
And ended up going up to Oregon and checking into
a rehab thinking I was going to do a quick
(05:43):
couple week spin dry because I was so important and
I had to get back to my job, and you know,
I had this epiphany, you know, coming to there that
I you know, my best thinking. I thought, wow, I'm
this smart guy. I was literally you know, institutionalized, and
that landed on me, like a ton of bricks, and
I just realized, like, I better figure this out because
(06:05):
the future is not looking bright, and started opening up
and taking direction and listening and letting go of how
I thought things should be, and for the first time,
was honest about the things that I was doing, in
the ways that I was behaving and the you know,
I remember accounts At telling me like, you know, you
(06:26):
have a case of alcoholism that we typically only see
in like sixty five year old men who come in here,
who have been drinking for the better part of their lifetime.
And if you don't, if you don't get this, like
you're probably gonna die. And you just said it so
point blank, like I'll never forget it, and it scared
the shot of me. So he said, I think you
(06:46):
I know that you think you're going to spin out
of here in twenty eight days, but we think you
should stick around. And I just said, I'll stay here
as long as you think I should should be here.
And I ended up living there for one hundred days,
which is kind of a long time to be in rehab, sure,
but that saved my life. There's so much capability that
resides within all of us, and you know, like yourself.
(07:07):
I've had the privilege of sitting across from so many
people who've done extraordinary things, and you see the humanity
in all of them. I mean, we project this superhero
quality onto all these people, but they're all just human
beings who had a dream and worked hard to achieve it.
And it's inspiring to really own and grasp the idea
(07:28):
that that, you know, we're all sitting on top of
deep reservoirs of potential that remain untapped, and our job
is to, you know, figure out how to authentically, you know,
connect with that voice that is telling us to you know,
unlock something and share it with the world. And if
you can do that and then share that story and
(07:50):
tie it in some way to service as a teacher
or in some way that can inspire other people or
pave the way for a better world, I mean that
to me is the recipe for a good, purpose driven,
fulfilling life. I'm much more focused on what I'm doing
today and how I can you know, leverage these tools
(08:12):
that I've learned to ameliorate, you know, the disease as
it as it rears its head and other kind of
behavioral stuff like I don't it's very rare that I
would crave alcohol these days, Like I don't think about it,
it's been so long, but but I still have the
ism and that pops up in all kinds of ways
and makes me an apt or resentful or frustrated or
(08:32):
you know, grinding on this problem. Like we were talking
when I walked in, Like we're both enjoying amazing lives,
Like we're very privileged to get to do what we
get to do and meet these amazing people and support
our families, you know by doing it. So why don't
I wake up inherently grateful every day? You know? It's
it's like that's what I use most of my mental
(08:55):
energy trying to, you know, focus.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
On when you were telling yourself, you know that you
got to keep going, you need to suffer more because
this is about suffering tolerance. Ultimately, you have to coach yourself.
You have to be a good coach to yourself in
this process because it is very very much mental. What's
your kind of inner monologue as the inner coach of
yourself in these points where you need to push yourself
(09:19):
through the suffering.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think for me, it's all about being present and
comfortable with the discomfort, you know. I think if you
get caught up in like I got to make it
to hear or you know, I'm thinking about some destination,
then it detracts from your ability to get there, because
(09:43):
you can't get there if you're not anchored in the
moment that you're actually in. And I think what happens
is time becomes very malleable. Like if I'm doing an
eight hour ride and you're in this like suffering state
of mind, you're not used to that, it's going to
feel like eternity. But when you build up to it,
like suddenly an eight hour ride feels like a two
(10:03):
hour ride.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So there is a weird thing that.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Happens with that that I think any endurance athlete would
would recognize. But for me, it's just it's about being
It's always bringing myself back to the present moment and
not trying to run away from it or distract myself
from it.
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