February 25, 2025 • 49 mins
Episode Summary:
- Networking That Works – Strategies to leverage your contacts for job opportunities.
- Breaking the Fear of Networking – How to start building relationships even if you don’t know many people.
- The Power of Intentional Networking – Why it’s not about collecting business cards but forming meaningful connections.
- Lessons from the Trenches – Dr. Benjamin Ritter and Matthew share their real-life experiences (successes & mistakes!).
- Online vs. In-Person Networking – Which one works best and how to master both.
- The Follow-Up Formula – How to maintain relationships and make networking a long-term career asset.
- Tactical Outreach Tips – What to say, how to message on LinkedIn, and how to get responses from decision-makers.
- The #1 Networking Mistake – And how to avoid it to build real career opportunities.
- Final Challenge – Try networking today and DM Dr. Benjamin Ritter on LinkedIn for a reality check!
Becoming Fearless Book:
https://a.co/d/emPVsZW
Connect with Dr. Benjamin!
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drbenjaminritter-leadershipdevelopment/
https://moveupcareers.com/strategycall
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-job-interview-experience/id1538223546
https://moveupcareers.com/survey
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
matthew_1_05-31-2024 (00:00):
Networking works.
(00:01):
If you've been to some events,networked, and have some
contacts.
Today, Dr.
Benjamin Ritter and I are goingto provide you with strategies
to leverage that for your jobsearch or for landing your next
big role.
If networking is a scary wordand you don't feel like you've
done much, you don't know manypeople, we're going to break it
down, tell you how, and shareinsight into How to start now,
(00:26):
because we both understand thatyou have an immediate need.
That's why you're here.
So we're going to talk about howto make this work for you.
Dr.
Benjamin has graciously returnedto the show.
So I'm going to turn it over toBenjamin to do a quick
introduction and catch you allup on what he's been up to.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05 (00:42):
Thanks so much for having me back.
I am pumped because networkinghas literally made my business,
made my life and has created avariety of professional
experiences for myself.
I never would have had.
And.
I think it's like a constantswitch that I keep on.
And I was actually thinking theother day, what do I want to
target my networking on next?
Because it has to be veryintentional.
(01:03):
I'm sure we'll get into thattopic.
How about a lot of my time hasbeen on getting ready for the
release of my new book, becomingfearless So go look for it, live
for yourself, consulting.
com slash becoming fearless.
It's out there.
But really even networking andthere's a portion of it in the
book about it in the book.
It's all about being fearlessand being intentional for
(01:27):
yourself, towards the goals thatyou have.
Wow.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (01:30):
one of the reasons I wanted to have
him back so much is he has avery thoughtful strategic
approach and that is coming outin his new book and you gain
from that.
So it's not just five steps todo this or 10 steps to be better
at this.
It's, I think, What you bring tothe table, what I like is
looking deeply and thinkingdeeply about these things and
(01:52):
maybe taking a step back beforeyou move forward, which we're
going to do today as well, butreally excited for your book.
Congratulations.
Before we hit record, we werestarting to chat about
networking and we've both doneit for myself.
I've, I know a lot, or I've beenexposed to a lot of networking.
My very first job out ofcollege, I sold newspaper ads
(02:17):
for a physical business journal,and it also had a email, a daily
email that was coming out verywell respected, great business
journal.
But because of that, I was asalesperson there.
I went to every networkingevent.
Within 50 miles.
That was my job.
If there was a networking eventfor grandmas with cats, I was
(02:38):
probably there.
If any local thing, any businesslaunch, and I saw the downsides
of it and the huge benefits ofit, the downsides were a lot of
these events.
It's a bunch of salespeople likeme all in a room chatting it up,
handing around business cards,obviously looking for leads,
right?
Our intention to be there,trying to meet the right people.
I was lucky that because thisbusiness journal is very well
(02:59):
respected, a lot of CEOs were atthese events.
And of course, it's very scaryto come up and talk to them.
And I didn't do that often, butI got to see the churn and burn,
right?
You see the same 20 people fromaround town at these same
events.
But I also learned how tonavigate it.
And my take was really how tomake friends, how to connect
(03:20):
with people that I liked, and Icould tell like me and not push
an agenda, but get to knowpeople and that those people,
have now, I've seen a pattern ofthem showing up in my life,
whether it be friends going toeach other's big life events,
weddings, things like that.
And those are meaningfulrelationships, and those are
also people that I've leaned onand have leaned on me, and we've
(03:40):
helped each other out, not likean IOU or UO.
Once you develop thoserelationships, it can be a quick
email like, Hey, I'm trying todo something or, Hey, do you
know about this?
Or sometimes it's just theirexpertise.
It'd be like, if it's a lawyerfriend, you hate to ask for free
help, but it's Hey what should Ido here?
Who or what type of attorneyhandles this type of business
thing?
(04:01):
And those connections are reallyimportant.
Just like I think friends shouldbe, have really enriched my
career.
Not just the friendships, butthe industry knowledge they
share.
If we grab coffee and also themutual connections they can help
make in a non sleazy way.
This is, think of it to me.
It's like what friends do,right?
What your brother, your cousin,whoever would do for you.
(04:23):
If you said, Hey, where wouldyou go here?
Or, Hey, that company used towork at, could you make an
introduction to this onedepartment?
Because I'm trying to learnabout their process for this new
thing.
That's been my experience.
I hope that's not too boring,but I'll say I've been to a lot
of networking events I've seen.
I've done it wrong.
I've done it right.
And I don't do it nearly as muchnow.
I, my goal when I go tonetworking events is to find
(04:45):
someone who I can chat up aboutlike hobbies and that I find
interesting and whether itbenefits me or not, that's how I
like to make friends.
And maybe after that you go outon a bike ride or go sailing
together or whatever it is.
So that's my take.
And.
I'll pass it on to you.
What has, what was yournetworking experience like early
in your career and then how doyou approach it now?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31-2 (05:07):
I was pretty antisocial.
So early on in my career, Ididn't network very much.
And actually the first thingthat I like learned was how to
go out there and be social tobe, to listen, to get curious,
to be influential, to not doubtyourself so much, I think even
before we get into like tacticsand everything, we're going to
(05:29):
have to talk about why peopledon't network, which is,
honestly, like I think if we canget through that roadblock, I
don't care as much about thetactics and doing it right.
I just care that you feelcomfortable going out there and
meeting somebody new and feelinglike you have permission to do
that.
And people spend tons of moneyon coaching programs and still
have a very difficult timeholding themselves accountable
(05:50):
to talking to strangers.
It's something that we work veryheavily on.
So for me, it took me some time.
The first to get the confidenceto go out there and to meet
people.
And then once I started doingthat, it was mainly for friends
before it was for business.
But then I had a pretty toughtime in my professional career.
It didn't really have a verystrong network and the economy
(06:12):
wasn't very good.
And so for two and a half years,I had to go build my
professional network, which wasabsolutely incredible for my
future.
Because I, during that time,when I was trying to get that
first full time position.
Which actually ended up gettingthat full time job because of
networking.
I actually networked across fromsomeone in a bar who was a
manager of a hospital who firstgot my friend a job and then got
(06:34):
me an interview, which led to aposition.
But also networking led me tothe alumni board of my school,
like the youngest person on thealumni board, which then led me
to a federal grant for sixmonths of free life coaching,
which then was a very pivotalmoment for me to enter the field
of coaching later on in myprofessional career.
It also led me to getting agraduate assistantship, getting
(06:55):
my entire graduate school paidfor other than a small portion.
And then in my professionallife, like any networking leads
to business.
Networking led to this podcastnetworking led to when I was
building my business, all theevents and the speakers and the
people that would attend them.
So it's crucial and it'simportant.
And it's not for when you wantsomething, need, it is a
(07:20):
personality or behavioral trait.
so that's my overview onnetworking.
I'd actually want to reframe itto, it's not networking, it's
building relationships, if yougo out there and you think that
you're just going to takesomething or you're networking,
like, like finding and finding ajob, about 60 percent of jobs.
(07:40):
You might've heard this before.
These are positions that aren'treally listed anywhere.
You can only really find themthrough conversations and
building relationships they'renot listed on job boards.
If you approach trying to findthose jobs with, I'm looking for
a job, that's not networking.
That is you just going to thestore and trying to buy
something off the shelf.
If you go out there reallycurious about the person, about
(08:04):
them, build a relationship,we'll talk about strategies.
That's networking.
Again, networking is buildingrelationships.
It's having conversations you'renot solely just trying to take
something, but you're trying toconnect with the person in front
of you.
That's my general overview.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (08:19):
It's really scary.
I am an extrovert.
I get incredible amount ofenergy from being around people.
I prefer small groups andconversation is my idea of fun.
So if I get together withfriends, I don't really want to
do, I don't want to, So muchplay board games or go do
something somewhere.
I'd rather sit around in acircle and talk.
That's just me.
But I get a huge amount ofenergy from even a crowd.
(08:43):
For me, still, networking,coming up to strangers, talking,
it's still scary.
And I've, even in the last year,I've shied away from it.
I'll share, What's helped me acouple of things that have
helped me is early in my career,a lot of networking events I
went to, it was me and otherpeople my, 20, 22 years old, but
(09:04):
a lot of people were leaders intheir now looking back, maybe
they were in their thirties, butto me, they were like in their
fifties, at least back then,right?
And that's very intimidating tomeet people like that because
there's, to me, there's such agap.
And one of the things thathelped me when going to these
events, you don't know anyonethere.
The options are you talk topeople or walk circles around
(09:27):
the room and find a corner.
I've done that.
It's painful.
One of the pieces of advice Ihave for younger people, or
anyone really, but people whoare nervous about networking is,
for me, one of the easiest stepsis to try and find people just
your age.
There's something that's justless intimidating about that.
Even just to start, say, yourevening or the event.
There's benefits to talking topeople who are older or younger,
(09:48):
and some of those are obvious.
But you will likely, if you're22, you'll likely have more in
common with the other people inthe room that are 22.
Conversation should be easier,your ideas, your maturity level
isn't going to be as awkward aswhen you try and talk to the 62
year old CEO of a big company.
And it is intimidating, and it'seasy to misstep there, because
(10:09):
typically, whether they're niceor not, they have a different
attitude.
In the way they think isdifferent, and unless they're
incredibly kind andunderstanding, they're, they
have their own agenda, andthey're not going to naturally
just be like, Oh, tell me whatyou did last weekend, right?
That's going to happen a loteasier with someone who's your
age.
That's helped me a lot, butthen, The other side of that is
(10:32):
those people will likely bebetter connections.
So if you have a hobby, if youwant, think you're going to want
to hang out with these peopleafterwards, you're gonna have to
find something to do.
And grabbing drinks, isn'talways the best option.
A lot of people that's not theirinterest or that's not what they
do.
So whether you chat with themand you're in a volleyball
league, or you want to go to adog park or grab coffee.
(10:54):
That typically is a little biteasier when someone is aligns
with the same point as you andyour career.
And that's just a starting pointto me.
Once you start having thoseconversations, usually.
Things evolve through the eventwhere, you will be talking with
someone else.
Maybe they'll see a friend, oryou'll see a friend, you join
the group, and then thingstransition into other
(11:15):
conversations a lot morenaturally.
But if you're thinking justnetworking event number one, and
first five minutes, look forpeople that are your age that
seem friendly.
And that usually translates to amore successful evening of
easier conversations.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (11:32):
Yeah, if we're talking about events
right now, there's actually avery short section in the book I
want to read, because I thinkthat might also add to what
you're sharing.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (11:40):
I love that.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (11:41):
what your recommendation is, people
you can feel more comfortablewith and that you can connect
with to start conversations andwarm up the conversational gear.
Because we're not talking topeople all day.
So it can be very uncomfortableto go into a room if we already
in social mode.
So one of the other things thatI would recommend on top of that
is so to ensure you get noticedat events, introduce yourself to
(12:05):
anyone that seems to bedirecting others or working in
the room.
These individuals are typicallythe event organizers or event
regulars are extra welcoming andcan facilitate introductions to
others.
So when you enter into an event,it can be very easy to warm up
that kind of social aspect ofyourself.
If you talk to the people thatare just.
(12:25):
I'm like a social rocket fuel.
So they generally are theorganizers, the speakers, the
regulars, they seem to bedirecting people, volunteers.
They can, and you can even tellthem, trying to find people in
the talent development space.
And they'll go, Oh, I know Roxycomes here all the time.
I'll point Roxy out for you.
(12:47):
And so that's a good way to getlike a quick in when you're at
an event.
The other piece was.
Another tip for standing out isto attend events at times when
there will likely be lowerattendance, such as holidays,
during bad weather, or whencompeting events are scheduled.
Attending an event when peoplehave reasons not to helps you
stand out and increases yourchance of creating lasting
(13:07):
impression.
So that would be like, Iactually came up with this and
it stuck with me.
It was a really cold, snowy dayin Chicago.
And there was an event that Ireally wanted to go to.
And I was like, ah, it's reallyuncomfortable.
I don't really want to go there,but I was like, I'm committed to
this.
I'm going, I'm networking.
(13:28):
I went to the event.
It's probably like a third ofthe people that normally come.
The host was there because it'stheir event.
And every single person in thatroom, like we're able to connect
on the fact that it was terribleoutside and they had a greater
chance to build a relationship.
And the host remembered that.
and everybody else there.
Cause it was a very importantday for that person.
(13:50):
Cause they, they had this event.
They didn't think people weregoing to show up.
And so also think about thatwhen you're trying to like,
should I go to this thing?
Should I not go to this thing?
It's raining outside.
I hope this story gives you alittle extra effort, a little
extra kind of oomph to go outthere because it can actually
really help you.
You actually create a prettymemorable experience for the
people that are there.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (14:08):
Yeah, that.
Automatically creates a mutuallyshared experience, getting
soaked in rain or driving ortaking a train and trudging
through the snow, whatever itmight be instantly, everyone's
gotten through the same journeytogether.
It's like the ships landed.
You all made it safely.
Not that's what you should talkabout all night, but I've seen
that myself.
(14:28):
And the first part from yourbook that you read About finding
someone who can makeintroductions.
If you keep your eyes open, youwill see that person.
It might be the local chamber ofcommerce leader or CEO.
It might be, like you said, theevent organizer.
You can usually tell if it's oneof the first people that has a
(14:50):
name tag or their name tag looksdifferent.
Sometimes that's a way, but thatadvice from your book, fearless
is, I've seen this a thousandtimes and those people are
always super eager to makeintroductions because one, they
organize the event and theirmeasurement of success is people
having a good time meeting eachother, being comfortable, and
they want that because they wantto hold more of these or that's
(15:14):
maybe that's their jobdescription.
A chamber of commerce leader orwhatever else is invigorating
business in the area from myexperience.
I'm so glad you said that.
Cause I wouldn't have, I'mreally glad that you read from
that passage because I've seenthat happen.
And I've also asked that Hey, Idon't know anyone here where.
Where should I start?
Or do you do you have someoneyou can make an introduction to?
(15:35):
I don't have anyone to talk to.
Those people it'll make theirday.
They'll be like, oh yeah, youshould talk to Jimmy over here.
And Alice does this and this.
And you have to meet thisperson.
They do this.
It works.
It'll work every time.
They, especially because theyunderstand how awkward it is and
how uncomfortable it is to notknow anyone.
And they want to help you becomfortable.
And, It's one of those things,if you don't ask, it's you'll
(15:56):
meet people.
But if you don't ask forsomething like that, it won't
happen.
People won't typically juststart introducing you to other
folks.
We've been talking about inperson networking, which I think
is still super important.
I think it has an advantage overonline networking or meeting
people, connecting with peopleonline, but they're just totally
(16:18):
different animals because youcan't target someone in an event
like you can online.
Getting out, showing your face,especially in your community,
whether you live in a huge cityor a mid sized town, doing that
just helps your career and youroutlook blossom.
Just like you said, the personyou met did this and this, that
(16:39):
exact, I can paint.
I can connect the dots in mycareer from my internship I had
in college and the kind peoplethere that I would go to some, a
couple networking events thereand they'd make introductions
that led to that first job Ihad.
It's just going to that oneevent that newspaper sales ad
sales job I had going to thatevent, meeting the right people
(17:01):
and so on and so forth.
And I think in this day and ageof zoom meetings and why even
what we're doing now, you don'tget that.
Energy of the room and exposureto people that you wouldn't have
targeted through a linkedinmessage.
You didn't know they exist Theyyou didn't know their business
or industry even existed.
(17:22):
that's the thing about in personNetworking that's a little more
interesting is it's a more of awild card I've seen business
owners will like somebody.
Someone will be maybe earlier intheir career and maybe they're
trying to sell something.
And there's a business ownerthat's completely different,
weird industry.
They make shoelaces or whateverand they're like, Hey, I really
(17:45):
like you.
You should come work for me.
Ten years later, you're thekingpin of the shoelace
industry.
Because of this weird thing, andthat is much more difficult to
happen online, but connectingwith people liking you, you
liking them, that can open doorsand create some pretty
interesting journeys, and that'sthe big benefit of it.
Really quick, we should, beforewe move on to networking online,
(18:07):
we should dig into some ways toconnect with networking events,
because some people, it's likewhere do I go?
I'll let you start with that.
I'm still thinking about it.
But what are some ways to lookup networking events in your
local area and selecting theright ones to go to?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31 (18:23):
I'm happy that you called out the
power of networking in person.
I do think like you have to havea balance because I know some
people that just are reallyuncomfortable with networking
virtually.
And so don't do it at all.
And networking in person, it'sgood, but it also is random.
And the people that tend to goto networking events, then it's
(18:47):
you have a lot of people thatyou don't, that aren't actually
going to be aligned with whatyou're trying to achieve.
Unless it's a very niche event.
And so online you can get verylike granular and detailed and
the types of person that you'retrying to target.
So you have to be okay with justlike a large investment travel.
Maybe there's some costsinvolved conversations that
(19:08):
maybe don't lead anywhere, forthe chance that like you create
a good impression and you showup in a positive way, some can
actually with you in a morepowerful way because of that one
on one or kind of that, like inperson interaction.
So finding networking events isa little bit of just, are you
going to invest time to go dosome keyword searches?
(19:29):
So there are, there are websiteslike which I know have changed a
little bit now, but meetup.
com.
And as you meet people at anevent, it shouldn't just be,
okay, great, nice to meet you.
It should be, Hey, you seemreally great.
What other events do you go to?
And you'll find out if thepeople that host and some more
kind of niche events that youwouldn't know about unless you
followed them on Instagram orsaw it online, the local chamber
(19:54):
tends to also have listings, soyou can look up for can go to
those those city websites to seewhat's listed there, but
honestly, the best events thatI've found are like finding the
niche types of people that youwant to connect with, seeing
what type of businesses thereare that cater to them.
generally look at their eventpages or connect to people that
(20:16):
at those places and ask them.
Then the other area that I foundsome really good events on our
coworking spaces.
So if you're in Austin, Texas,capital factory has two events a
day, pretty much nonstop.
And those events might notalways be the best.
They, there are some that areamazing, but the people that go
to them know about other eventstoo.
So again, reiterating, like youhave to talk to people to find
(20:40):
out who is really the host, thehostess with the there is.
Yeah,
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (20:47):
I did a Google search for just
networking events near me.
And there's a business mixer, Isee a health and wellness
professionals networking, newnetworking.
If there's any publications inyour area, if there is like a
business journal, they do tendto hold pretty good events
because they other companieswill host them for them.
(21:08):
The young professional networks,Have a lot of events and that
will help you find other events.
If the goal is just being aroundpeople who you mutually enjoy,
there's not so much pressure.
With online, maybe you don'tknow the exact person you want
to get a hold of, you know thetype of person you want to get a
hold of, and you know why.
What are some strategies for ajob seeker, someone wants to get
(21:31):
in at a certain company, Or theywant to meet people and just
have a bigger network in generalof maybe people in their same
industry or job title, how doyou do that online?
Yeah,
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_0 (21:44):
events, and I mentioned this, and I
didn't, wasn't as explicit, butI'm going to be explicit because
I think you brought it up too.
you're going to a job seekerevent, and so sorry, because I
think those are probablybeneficial for some support.
But if everyone's looking for ajob, probably not going to be
the best place for you to get ajob.
But, if, let's say you'reinterested in working at Nike,
(22:07):
And Nike has fitness classes andruns throughout your
neighborhood.
I bet you someone in themarketing department from Nike
is probably at that run.
And I bet there's people at thatrun that also like running,
which maybe you do, and areinterested in sports like you
do.
And maybe also they have othercontacts at companies.
And so that's probably a betteruse of your time.
And so let's say same target.
(22:28):
I'm interested in working atNike.
It's not just about applying toa job and talking to a
recruiter.
That is a standard traditionalway of maybe getting into the
company.
It's about meeting people atthat company and building
relationships with them so thatthey know you and think about
you when opportunities come up,or maybe even recognize your
name push your applicationforwards, like what would
(22:52):
happen, I imagine, let's sayyou're at the Nike run and you
meet three people that work atNike.
one of them is a recruiter andyou apply to a job and they
recognize your name and they go,Oh, that person's from the run.
I'm going to push them forwardand give them a call.
The same thing happens whenyou're online.
So oftentimes people try to gothrough the recruiter.
They may if they even do anysort of networking, I'm like,
Hey, I applied to this job.
(23:13):
First mistake is when you'renetworking, you're not doing it
for a job.
You're doing it to buildrelationships.
So we talked about before, butyou want to ask yourself like
what relationship would be mostbeneficial to form to create for
this job?
So if it's a position, Iprobably would target a director
of marketing or a VP ofmarketing or CMO, whoever your
(23:33):
boss would be, whoever, who'sthe person that you might be
working for, or who's the personthat would be like a skip level,
like your boss's boss, or whomight be someone that I might
work with from a peerperspective, it appears not as,
it's not as beneficial, butstill can be great about
learning about the company andbuilding relationship and
connecting.
And so even before any sort ofoutreach, you can engage on
(23:54):
their profiles.
You can find them on LinkedIn.
You can like their posts.
You can share one of them.
You can comment.
And what you're doing there isyou're making yourself more
familiar to the person.
It's go to the same coffee shopevery day and you see the same
person, all of a sudden thatperson, like by the third day,
you're probably nodding to them.
By the seventh day, you'reprobably making a comment or a
joke to them.
by the 13th day, you probablymight even sit down and talk to
(24:15):
them for a bit or exchangeinformation if it's going well.
So you got to think about thatas well.
When it comes to like onlinenetworking, how am I making
myself more familiar?
And since you're not justreaching out for a job, you're
reaching out to learn about themand the company.
Your outreach is a very simple,very explicit, Hey your career
path seems really neat, or Hey,your background seems really
(24:35):
interesting, or Hey, I've alwaysthought Nike was a really cool
company because of X, Y, Z, it'dbe great to connect and learn
about your work, period, greatto connect, be great to connect.
Oftentimes people tend to makethat first message or outreach a
page long.
No one's going to read that.
They don't know you.
They don't even think aboutthis.
When you're building arelationship, how much time
would someone invest in astranger?
(24:57):
Very minimal.
So one or two sentences, howmuch time would someone invest
in someone they've connectedwith?
Maybe a little bit more, maybetwo to four sentences.
How much will someone read ifyou've had a phone call with
them or they've replied a backand forth conversation with you
a couple of times, probably alot more, probably more willing
to jump on the phone too.
So this is like a very highlevel overview of networking.
(25:17):
We still haven't talked about,wow, how do you feel confident
in networking?
But I think it's important thatwe cover these tactics and so
turn it over to you.
To get your opinion on it, too.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (25:27):
those messages you send are crucial to
get right.
I think the best way to templateit, which I think you should, is
to think about How you would doit correctly in person.
So say that you're in a, at anevent and the C we're talking
about Nike, you'll say the CEOor chief marketing officer of
(25:48):
Under Armour is there and you'rein marketing, maybe you've been
in it for five or 10 years andyou feel like you've you've
plateaued.
And you think they'll like you.
So you wouldn't come up and say,Hey, I'm Dan.
When I was 12 years old, Iinjured my knee running, but I
got over it and then I got goodgrades and then I went to
(26:09):
college and I studied this andthen I might got my first job
and it was really great, but Ididn't like this.
And then my girlfriend dumped meand I was really sad.
So I was, Took some time offfrom work, but now I'm really
not quite sure what to do.
I have this current, right?
Something like that.
And maybe that's not the bestexample, but I've seen a lot of
messages, just like you said, orcover letters that are like
(26:31):
telling your life story.
And it's all the, usually it'sthe worst parts, not the best
parts.
And no, if you're at an eventdoing it the right way, you come
up and you say.
Hey Mark, I've been followingUnder Armour a long time, and
I've seen how you've helped formthe brand.
I hope to do something asimpactful someday.
You've been an inspiration tome.
Would you ever Consider grabbingcoffee.
(26:52):
Can I buy you coffee and if youcould share how you navigated
your career, maybe at the pointthat I'm at right now, and any
advice you have I would be sodeeply grateful.
Nothing like that.
And something like that in amessage, I think, goes a lot
longer than telling your story.
If you're a job seeker theydon't If you're talking about
how you've been laid off oryou're on the job search, all
(27:13):
those things, they're going toknow Oh, they want me to hire
them.
And I don't do that is going tobe their thought unless they are
like a recruiter or something.
So approaching it with, I'd saycomplimenting them, not kissing
up, but being like, basicallyyou've done what I aspire to do
and you've done it in such a waythat I find really intriguing.
(27:34):
Would you consider spending sometime with me to share your
wisdom so that I can Maybenavigate my career in a more
meaningful and strategic way.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (27:46):
Yes.
And even just, hi, Mark.
It's we were talking aboutwalking up to an event.
I want to take this step backand go you see someone at an
event, you walk up and you go,hey, how's it going?
Oh, you work at Under Armour?
Awesome.
I love that company.
Sounds really interesting.
How do you start work there?
It's you literally ask yourself,if this message was a
conversation, would it be weird?
(28:06):
And.
And then also ask yourself, ifyou're talking to someone pretty
high up and you're trying to getthat, like informational session
with them, compliments go veryfar.
But at the same time, you wantto make sure that when you're
reaching out to someone andtalking to them, that you're not
making yourself like a lowerstatus.
Like you're not making it likethat.
It's a favor to talk to you.
There are some people like a CEOof a company, maybe that's the
(28:28):
case.
Maybe you're at a part of yourprofessional world where that's
the case.
But if the person could just beyour boss or maybe a peer, it's
I bet we would have someinteresting things to talk
about.
I'd love to learn more aboutyour career path.
I can be just a little carefulabout lowering your status.
Cause then what happens isyou're only going to get people
to say yes, that are interestedin helping, like being a mentor
(28:49):
and men generally, if you arebeing mentored, that person
isn't considering you for a jobbecause they see you as someone
that isn't ready yet.
And we want to make sure that weavoid the isn't ready yet
perspective.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (29:01):
Very well said.
I think that's a much betterapproach than what I said.
And also for my in personexample, don't come up to
someone and even if it's a briefstory, right?
You'd come up to him and belike, Hey Mark, I'm Matthew.
That's a better way.
Skip my advice on the, even ifit's a short story and I agree.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (29:18):
Your advice is very important when
you find somebody that really isa little bit further in your
career than you are, where youwant to be compliments
compliment, show that you knowwhat they do and their path, and
then ask them if they would beopen to getting a quick virtual
chat or a call.
I think that's, that is key.
And we don't do that enough.
And I think people that areearly on in their career have
(29:39):
such a gift.
early on in your career.
Even it's like being in school.
You just tell someone you're astudent.
It's like literally like a 95percent probably success rate in
getting people to talk to youbecause they want to help you.
LinkedIn has started offering AIhelp.
Be very careful.
I've had some people I wasworking with a client the other
day and he's I used AI and itwas great.
(30:00):
It made everything really fast.
I'm like, okay, can I look atthe messages?
They were really bad.
They, it was very formal.
The English wasn't correct.
Very be very careful about usingAI.
At least you have to make surethat you edit it after you use
it.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (30:16):
I can tell when people email me AI
stuff.
And my advice for that, like forcontent generation, that's a
whole nother conversation.
I really, I use Grammarly and ithelps with sentence
restructuring where I'll getbusy and I'll type something out
and it's like this sentencecould be half as long and you
need to put the end at thebeginning and the beginning at
the end just for writingmessages.
(30:39):
I, I think Grammarly is great.
I pay for the premium versionbecause I think it's so helpful
for me.
And I'm actually a pretty goodspeller.
I have a pretty good handle ongrammar.
On the English language thatsomething like that will make
your messages more professional,which we haven't talked about
make sure you spell check andthat you're not missing any
apostrophes or periods or I amlike the biggest user of the
(31:01):
pregnant pause ever like thedash in my sense is anyone
that's emailed with me is likeprobably oh my gosh dude use a
period but Yeah, so for writing,for content, AI, it all looks
the same.
It's greetings fellow traveler.
I am a what word do I see?
I am a distinguished marketingprofessional, right?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(31:22):
And that would be my tip.
Use Grammarly or whatever elseis out there until they sponsor
the show.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say usewhoever, use Grammarly or
whatever's better.
But yeah.
Yeah, make sure you get themessaging right.
When I do stuff like that, Iread it over, over and over and
over.
Sometimes I'll take a step awayfor a couple hours and come
back.
I'm not a natural, like salespitch writer.
(31:44):
And so I think the simpler, thebetter, which is where I get
hurt is I'll make it too longand I'll make it short and I'll
struggle with what details toinclude what's enough detail to
get a response without being toolong.
It's not my gift.
So I think you can always run itthrough chat, GPT, see what.
improvements it makes, if it canmake it shorter or better, but
(32:06):
Benjamin said, be really carefulwith stuff like that because
it'll be hokey.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31 (32:11):
And honestly, just don't overthink
the first outreach.
It's really simple.
you're connecting to someonethat's a marketing, and I would
recommend, by the way, I know wesaid a marketing leader
connecting to a technologyleader, I would first try to
connect with like your futureboss.
So it would be, you're amarketing director, that'd be
like a senior director or VP orCMO.
(32:33):
And then also try to connectwith a peer.
A little bit different of anoutreach because for example,
from a marketing leader, try toconnect with a marketing leader.
I'd say something along thelines like, Try to expand my
network of marketing leaders inthe X, Y, Z area, Austin area.
That's it.
That's your outreach.
If that person connects with youand doesn't respond, then you
can follow up and be like, To beconnected, really interested in
(32:55):
your background.
It'd be great to have a quickchat.
Very simple.
You don't have to promoteyourself.
You don't have to say anything.
If you actually, if you're onLinkedIn, they see your profile.
So make sure your profile is upto date.
Now, if this is like an actualyou're like, Hey, try to expand
my network in, in marketingcompanies, like maybe it's a
company or an industry foundyour pro found your profile
(33:17):
through a LinkedIn search wouldbe great to connect.
Simple very short very sweet.
You're not selling yourself.
If you start selling yourself,you start coming off as salesy.
If you come off as salesy,someone's going to think that
you want something.
If you want, if someone thinksyou want something, they're not
going to talk to you.
It's.
they think that it's atransaction, even if they know,
Oh, this person's probablylooking for a job by focusing on
(33:39):
the relationship and by showingup by focusing on the
relationship, you're going toincrease the chances of that
message converts.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (33:46):
I'm the last person to take cold
outreach advice from.
I'm better than a lot of people,but I'm not a master.
And I think once you get reallygood, it's actually like a
vicious cycle of it actuallygets, starts to get worse.
Just like Benjamin said, don'toverthink it.
One of the things I've noticedin my career I've worked for.
And I've done work for someextraordinary leaders and the
(34:09):
pattern I almost always see isthe more actually important and
busy they get, the shorter theiremails are.
And so you get from, like forme, if someone sent me something
like, how does this look?
I'd give some notes and say,that looks great.
Be positive and you say what Ilike about it, blah, blah, blah.
(34:30):
I don't know, CEO or someonewho's really busy at a big
company.
Like the response, like that'sgreat.
And that would be it.
And so integrating some of thatinto your messaging, I think
does help not, you want to makesure you're not being rude or
short, but just like Benjaminsaid, like reaching out and just
being like something, it'd begreat to connect.
Found you on a search.
(34:50):
It'd be great to.
Chat about this thing.
You talked about making sureyour LinkedIn profile is up to
date.
One thing really quick, makesure your work history is up to
date.
If one of the things I'd notice,which maybe I'm too nitpicky,
but if you've worked forcompanies that have profiles on
LinkedIn, make sure Your workhistory is connected with the
real company and not like an oldfake version or not fake like
(35:13):
old version with no photo.
It really does make it yourprofile just it enriches it for
whatever reason.
And then for your photo, if it'sold or dorky, like the simplest
thing I coach people on this.
You can typically get headshotsin your area for a hundred bucks
for a couple like corporateheadshots, maybe 200.
(35:33):
If you can't do that, or youdon't have time, just put on
your out work outfit, havesomeone grab their cell phone,
go outside and just put onportrait mode, get some trees
behind you or mountains orwhatever.
And just take 50 pictures, justgo all over the place.
And one of them will turn out.
Better than what you have onthere.
If it's like a clipped pictureof you at Christmas or you at a
wedding or you out at the barswith your friends where there
(35:57):
happened to be a professionalphotographer or like a nice
camera, taking pictures ofeveryone at like the club.
Do that.
Update it, make it look nice,smile or do your pose not having
a photo.
I think if you don't have aphoto, no one will.
typically respond to you.
Like it's just how it works andhaving a decent looking photo,
iPhones or Samsung Galaxies,whatever else these days,
(36:19):
especially portrait mode.
They take like as good of apicture basically as a DSLR.
A lot of it's just lighting inlike the, having good lighting
around you.
Those little things will add upwhere if you have a LinkedIn.
With no picture or kind of alousy picture and it's one job
in your work experience it lookslike a an empty town or like an
(36:41):
empty room Like it doesn't seemlike either you care or that you
even use LinkedIn When I've seenprofiles like that if I need to
contact someone and I see thatI'm just like this person
doesn't use LinkedIn or likethey seem like a who runs this?
It's like an odd stranger,right?
So those are little things youcan do that I think will help at
least personalize you a littlebit, humanize you, and make it
(37:03):
seem like you're taking thiswhole thing seriously.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (37:07):
Yeah.
If you look like you're a fakeprofile real quick, like not
going to be very good for youroutreach.
You can also use, this is whereAI does come in handy.
There are some really great AIprofile photo tools, so you can
explore those cheaper thanprofessional headshots.
And they're pretty good andshows that you're a little
techie, which can be nice ifyou're wondering how to get a
(37:30):
good photo.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (37:31):
If you Google AI headshot software
corrector or whatever, there'ssome cool options out there.
Let's say that we message thistarget person and they don't
respond, and it's been a weekand a half.
What would you do from there?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (37:47):
Thank you for saying week and a half,
because people, as it's socommon, they get, they freak out
if the person doesn't respondwithin 24 hours.
Just so you know, people havelives and they have jobs and and
a half is a very decenttimeframe for someone to have
seen something and respond toit.
please do not send.
Multiple messages within 24hours or 48 hours.
(38:09):
Send it and forget about it.
Just send it and forget aboutit.
Try to let it go out of yourmind.
If you don't, you will seemanxious.
You will seem desperate.
You will not seem like aprofessional.
So please timing is veryimportant.
Let's say they do connect withyou and then your next and they
don't respond.
The message would just besomething along the lines of,
Hey, just pinging this up theinbox.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (38:30):
Yep,
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_0 (38:30):
Looking forward to talking period.
No response.
Wait another week and a half.
Then you send a message.
I know, we're all pretty busynowadays.
LinkedIn can also be like ablack hole.
If you see this still be open toa chat, have a great day.
That's it simple.
And if you decide that you wantto try getting ahold of them,
(38:52):
Instagram, if it's like acertain person, emails can be
found online, so there's mightnot also be on LinkedIn and they
might also really value thatpersistence.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11 (39:03):
Getting a hold of people the right way
is really tricky some peoplejust aren't super into LinkedIn.
If someone did this to me, itwould work.
So you messaged me on LinkedIn.
If I'm on LinkedIn, I'm probablyin the middle of something.
I'm probably needing to dosomething and I like to stay on
task.
So I might see your message.
I might really quickly read it,but I'm going to move on to
something else.
Maybe forget.
I really like surfacing this tothe top of your inbox.
(39:25):
People do that to me and I'vestarted doing it myself.
It doesn't bother me at all.
It's thanks for the reminder.
And so if you sent a followupmessage and I think it's a, it's
feels natural to follow up andreiterate your first message.
Hey, this is really important tome.
Wanted to see if maybe you'reavailable next week, blah, blah,
blah.
Instead of that saying, Hey,surfacing this to the top of
your inbox, by the way, if itworks better for you, my email
(39:46):
address is dah.
Look forward to connecting.
Or you could say, Hey ifLinkedIn isn't where you
communicate, shoot me an emailat this address and we can get
connected.
So maybe giving them anotheroption and maybe they'll copy
and paste that.
Maybe they'll just reply to themessage, but I like to live in
my email inbox.
That's probably going away, butI will I will die at the email
(40:08):
inbox.
I don't even text.
I don't email friends, but I'mnot even big into texting.
It's email me and I'm on itanywhere else and I'm probably
gonna lose track of it becauseI'm busy and it's just not my
workflow.
So let's close with you, you getthe meeting, right?
This person talks to you on Zoomor in person, you meet for a
(40:31):
coffee.
I'll offer my piece of advice onlike following up and
maintaining the relationship andI'd like to hear from you as
well.
So maybe it's a short termeffort, right?
Hey, like you're looking for ajob and you're trying to connect
with people.
Let's say that you are reachingout and you're playing a little
bit more of the long game.
What I think is really effectivein networking, especially with
(40:55):
people who are maybe a couplerungs ahead of you is they don't
want you to bring them all yourproblems.
They don't want you to send thema question even every month.
I don't think if they invite youlike, Hey, I'd like to be your
mentor.
Let's meet for coffee once amonth.
That's different.
What I've done is when I askpeople for advice, whether it's
on LinkedIn or in person oranywhere else, they give me some
(41:17):
time, some feedback.
I follow up, whether it be amonth or three months later, and
I share how their insightimpacted my results.
And people really like that.
Because it says that youlistened, you did what they
said, and then you're followingup, right?
You're just telling them here'show it worked out.
See, if they share this stuffwith you, and they ha would, if
(41:38):
they happen to follow up withyou, and hey, how'd it go, and
you're like, hey, look, I neverreally got to it, I'm really
busy, I've got a lot going on,it's I gave you an hour of my
time or 30 minutes, or I giveyou my best insight.
And that's not happening again.
But if you follow up in shortterm, couple of weeks, long
term, it could be a month ortwo, and I would just say, Hey,
so appreciate your time.
I took your advice.
I did what you shared and here'swhat happened because of that.
(42:02):
Dot like 3.
Thank you so much.
Really appreciate ourfriendship, Matthew.
Something like that.
That's very rewarding to peoplewho give time.
And that also, I think it's thethank you and all of that.
It also leaves you in a goodspot.
If you do want to follow up withthat person again, whether it be
in the near future or long term,you've returned the favor, at
(42:26):
least in a way of showing, Thatyou appreciate it and that their
advice works.
That would be my one piece fornetworking that might not apply
to every situation, if someonehelped you get a job, it would
be perfect.
You fall up and say, Hey, I'vebeen in this role for I'm at
four weeks now, this wouldn'thave happened because of you.
I can't tell you how grateful Iam.
Your friend, Matthew, for otherthings that might not work, if
(42:49):
obviously if they don't apply toreply to you or you don't really
get anywhere.
But overall, that is my strategyto keep those things warm.
And if you need to ask anotherfavor later, you're in a really
good spot.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (43:03):
Yeah, I was actually going to say this
when we were talking about inperson.
If someone introduces you tosomeone, even at an in person
event, go back and say, Hey,this guy was great.
XYZ.
This is why do you know anybodyelse?
Just that follow up is reallyimportant.
People want to know that youlistened to them, that it made
an impact.
That's why they're trying tohelp you.
Follow up and then follow up.
It's literally it is a wonderfuladvice.
(43:24):
It's not you don't even need areason.
You could even just say, Ireally appreciate the last time
we talked.
It really still resonates withme.
I think about it prettyregularly.
Hope you're doing well.
Cheering you on.
Even something like that.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (43:38):
I'll close with this.
I've even recently reached outto past friends or colleagues
and peers and asked for helpwith things or introductions and
not gotten a response.
Just being honest and otherpeople have been super helpful,
but there's people who, if theyasked me, I would totally do it
for them and I just didn't getanything back.
I say that because you can'tlook at this as something like,
(44:02):
don't pigeonhole yourself intoone person to, one message and
two followups.
And that's it.
You do have to cast a wider net.
And if the person at Nikedoesn't get back to you, my
advice would be, think, say,screw it.
I'm going to, who's their topcompetitor.
I'm going to ask that person'sadvice.
If they don't get back to you,you say, who's Adidas top
(44:22):
competitor.
I'm going to reach out to UnderArmour.
And.
Overall don't be discouraged.
You won't get a response toevery message.
And if you send one message,you're in my opinion, you're
setting yourself up for failure.
Now don't be a spammer.
Don't message a hundred people.
But don't think of this as onemessage is going to get me the
(44:43):
result or one outreach is goingto get me the result I need.
And don't take it personally ifthey don't respond.
It doesn't mean they hate you.
It doesn't mean they don't wantto help.
It's just maybe it wasn't theexact right time for them.
And maybe you've been in thesame spot in your life.
Maybe a friend help ask you tohelp them move and you didn't
make it right.
That doesn't mean you hate themor that you never want to help
anyone.
Maybe it just wasn't the righttime for you to do the thing
(45:04):
that someone asked you to do.
Don't get discouraged by that.
Keep a broader view.
Think big, right?
Think of competitors or peoplein the same industry, other
people you can reach out to, oryou can think of other people at
the same company or think aboutMutual connections you have Hey,
I'm trying to get ahold of Johnat Nike.
I saw that you worked there forthree years.
(45:25):
Do you happen to know anyonethat knows him or have any
advice on getting in contactwith him?
Something like that.
So it doesn't always have to bedirect to the source.
It can also be contactingpeople, LinkedIn tells you who
you're mutually connected to,what your degrees of connection
are.
So those are things that you, sothat you don't get obsessed or
hyper focused on one thing thatwill set you up for.
(45:49):
I think disappointment, if youapproach it with one person, one
or two messages, and that's it.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (45:57):
Yeah, it doesn't matter who says no.
It matters who says yes.
And if you're struggling, findme on LinkedIn.
Dr.
Benjamin Ritter sent me amessage.
Let me know what's happening.
I'll give you a good kick getyou to keep going.
And if you're interested in thebook, make sure to check out
Becoming Fearless, by the way.
Pretty much anywhere books aresold.
love to hear from anyone that'slistening to this.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (46:16):
Yeah, it's fresh off the press.
Get yourself a copy.
It's fantastic.
Dr.
Benjamin Ritter is a reallygreat writer, I think you take a
philosophical, in depth approachto what you write.
We'll link to it in thisepisode's description and
connect with Dr.
Benjamin Ritter on LinkedIn.
And let's see, what's your titleon LinkedIn?
If people just don't link to youfrom this episode description,
(46:38):
if they just want to find you onLinkedIn.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (46:41):
type in Dr.
Benjamin Ritter.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111 (46:43):
That's it.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (46:44):
Yeah.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_ (46:45):
Benjamin, thank you so much for joining
us.
Congratulations on your book.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (46:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I love this conversation, andpeople, try networking out.
Send me a message.
Networking works.
(00:01):
If you've been to some events,networked, and have some
contacts.
Today, Dr.
Benjamin Ritter and I are goingto provide you with strategies
to leverage that for your jobsearch or for landing your next
big role.
If networking is a scary wordand you don't feel like you've
done much, you don't know manypeople, we're going to break it
down, tell you how, and shareinsight into How to start now,
(00:26):
because we both understand thatyou have an immediate need.
That's why you're here.
So we're going to talk about howto make this work for you.
Dr.
Benjamin has graciously returnedto the show.
So I'm going to turn it over toBenjamin to do a quick
introduction and catch you allup on what he's been up to.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05 (00:42):
Thanks so much for having me back.
I am pumped because networkinghas literally made my business,
made my life and has created avariety of professional
experiences for myself.
I never would have had.
And.
I think it's like a constantswitch that I keep on.
And I was actually thinking theother day, what do I want to
target my networking on next?
Because it has to be veryintentional.
(01:03):
I'm sure we'll get into thattopic.
How about a lot of my time hasbeen on getting ready for the
release of my new book, becomingfearless So go look for it, live
for yourself, consulting.
com slash becoming fearless.
It's out there.
But really even networking andthere's a portion of it in the
book about it in the book.
It's all about being fearlessand being intentional for
(01:27):
yourself, towards the goals thatyou have.
Wow.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (01:30):
one of the reasons I wanted to have
him back so much is he has avery thoughtful strategic
approach and that is coming outin his new book and you gain
from that.
So it's not just five steps todo this or 10 steps to be better
at this.
It's, I think, What you bring tothe table, what I like is
looking deeply and thinkingdeeply about these things and
(01:52):
maybe taking a step back beforeyou move forward, which we're
going to do today as well, butreally excited for your book.
Congratulations.
Before we hit record, we werestarting to chat about
networking and we've both doneit for myself.
I've, I know a lot, or I've beenexposed to a lot of networking.
My very first job out ofcollege, I sold newspaper ads
(02:17):
for a physical business journal,and it also had a email, a daily
email that was coming out verywell respected, great business
journal.
But because of that, I was asalesperson there.
I went to every networkingevent.
Within 50 miles.
That was my job.
If there was a networking eventfor grandmas with cats, I was
(02:38):
probably there.
If any local thing, any businesslaunch, and I saw the downsides
of it and the huge benefits ofit, the downsides were a lot of
these events.
It's a bunch of salespeople likeme all in a room chatting it up,
handing around business cards,obviously looking for leads,
right?
Our intention to be there,trying to meet the right people.
I was lucky that because thisbusiness journal is very well
(02:59):
respected, a lot of CEOs were atthese events.
And of course, it's very scaryto come up and talk to them.
And I didn't do that often, butI got to see the churn and burn,
right?
You see the same 20 people fromaround town at these same
events.
But I also learned how tonavigate it.
And my take was really how tomake friends, how to connect
(03:20):
with people that I liked, and Icould tell like me and not push
an agenda, but get to knowpeople and that those people,
have now, I've seen a pattern ofthem showing up in my life,
whether it be friends going toeach other's big life events,
weddings, things like that.
And those are meaningfulrelationships, and those are
also people that I've leaned onand have leaned on me, and we've
(03:40):
helped each other out, not likean IOU or UO.
Once you develop thoserelationships, it can be a quick
email like, Hey, I'm trying todo something or, Hey, do you
know about this?
Or sometimes it's just theirexpertise.
It'd be like, if it's a lawyerfriend, you hate to ask for free
help, but it's Hey what should Ido here?
Who or what type of attorneyhandles this type of business
thing?
(04:01):
And those connections are reallyimportant.
Just like I think friends shouldbe, have really enriched my
career.
Not just the friendships, butthe industry knowledge they
share.
If we grab coffee and also themutual connections they can help
make in a non sleazy way.
This is, think of it to me.
It's like what friends do,right?
What your brother, your cousin,whoever would do for you.
(04:23):
If you said, Hey, where wouldyou go here?
Or, Hey, that company used towork at, could you make an
introduction to this onedepartment?
Because I'm trying to learnabout their process for this new
thing.
That's been my experience.
I hope that's not too boring,but I'll say I've been to a lot
of networking events I've seen.
I've done it wrong.
I've done it right.
And I don't do it nearly as muchnow.
I, my goal when I go tonetworking events is to find
(04:45):
someone who I can chat up aboutlike hobbies and that I find
interesting and whether itbenefits me or not, that's how I
like to make friends.
And maybe after that you go outon a bike ride or go sailing
together or whatever it is.
So that's my take.
And.
I'll pass it on to you.
What has, what was yournetworking experience like early
in your career and then how doyou approach it now?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31-2 (05:07):
I was pretty antisocial.
So early on in my career, Ididn't network very much.
And actually the first thingthat I like learned was how to
go out there and be social tobe, to listen, to get curious,
to be influential, to not doubtyourself so much, I think even
before we get into like tacticsand everything, we're going to
(05:29):
have to talk about why peopledon't network, which is,
honestly, like I think if we canget through that roadblock, I
don't care as much about thetactics and doing it right.
I just care that you feelcomfortable going out there and
meeting somebody new and feelinglike you have permission to do
that.
And people spend tons of moneyon coaching programs and still
have a very difficult timeholding themselves accountable
(05:50):
to talking to strangers.
It's something that we work veryheavily on.
So for me, it took me some time.
The first to get the confidenceto go out there and to meet
people.
And then once I started doingthat, it was mainly for friends
before it was for business.
But then I had a pretty toughtime in my professional career.
It didn't really have a verystrong network and the economy
(06:12):
wasn't very good.
And so for two and a half years,I had to go build my
professional network, which wasabsolutely incredible for my
future.
Because I, during that time,when I was trying to get that
first full time position.
Which actually ended up gettingthat full time job because of
networking.
I actually networked across fromsomeone in a bar who was a
manager of a hospital who firstgot my friend a job and then got
(06:34):
me an interview, which led to aposition.
But also networking led me tothe alumni board of my school,
like the youngest person on thealumni board, which then led me
to a federal grant for sixmonths of free life coaching,
which then was a very pivotalmoment for me to enter the field
of coaching later on in myprofessional career.
It also led me to getting agraduate assistantship, getting
(06:55):
my entire graduate school paidfor other than a small portion.
And then in my professionallife, like any networking leads
to business.
Networking led to this podcastnetworking led to when I was
building my business, all theevents and the speakers and the
people that would attend them.
So it's crucial and it'simportant.
And it's not for when you wantsomething, need, it is a
(07:20):
personality or behavioral trait.
so that's my overview onnetworking.
I'd actually want to reframe itto, it's not networking, it's
building relationships, if yougo out there and you think that
you're just going to takesomething or you're networking,
like, like finding and finding ajob, about 60 percent of jobs.
(07:40):
You might've heard this before.
These are positions that aren'treally listed anywhere.
You can only really find themthrough conversations and
building relationships they'renot listed on job boards.
If you approach trying to findthose jobs with, I'm looking for
a job, that's not networking.
That is you just going to thestore and trying to buy
something off the shelf.
If you go out there reallycurious about the person, about
(08:04):
them, build a relationship,we'll talk about strategies.
That's networking.
Again, networking is buildingrelationships.
It's having conversations you'renot solely just trying to take
something, but you're trying toconnect with the person in front
of you.
That's my general overview.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (08:19):
It's really scary.
I am an extrovert.
I get incredible amount ofenergy from being around people.
I prefer small groups andconversation is my idea of fun.
So if I get together withfriends, I don't really want to
do, I don't want to, So muchplay board games or go do
something somewhere.
I'd rather sit around in acircle and talk.
That's just me.
But I get a huge amount ofenergy from even a crowd.
(08:43):
For me, still, networking,coming up to strangers, talking,
it's still scary.
And I've, even in the last year,I've shied away from it.
I'll share, What's helped me acouple of things that have
helped me is early in my career,a lot of networking events I
went to, it was me and otherpeople my, 20, 22 years old, but
(09:04):
a lot of people were leaders intheir now looking back, maybe
they were in their thirties, butto me, they were like in their
fifties, at least back then,right?
And that's very intimidating tomeet people like that because
there's, to me, there's such agap.
And one of the things thathelped me when going to these
events, you don't know anyonethere.
The options are you talk topeople or walk circles around
(09:27):
the room and find a corner.
I've done that.
It's painful.
One of the pieces of advice Ihave for younger people, or
anyone really, but people whoare nervous about networking is,
for me, one of the easiest stepsis to try and find people just
your age.
There's something that's justless intimidating about that.
Even just to start, say, yourevening or the event.
There's benefits to talking topeople who are older or younger,
(09:48):
and some of those are obvious.
But you will likely, if you're22, you'll likely have more in
common with the other people inthe room that are 22.
Conversation should be easier,your ideas, your maturity level
isn't going to be as awkward aswhen you try and talk to the 62
year old CEO of a big company.
And it is intimidating, and it'seasy to misstep there, because
(10:09):
typically, whether they're niceor not, they have a different
attitude.
In the way they think isdifferent, and unless they're
incredibly kind andunderstanding, they're, they
have their own agenda, andthey're not going to naturally
just be like, Oh, tell me whatyou did last weekend, right?
That's going to happen a loteasier with someone who's your
age.
That's helped me a lot, butthen, The other side of that is
(10:32):
those people will likely bebetter connections.
So if you have a hobby, if youwant, think you're going to want
to hang out with these peopleafterwards, you're gonna have to
find something to do.
And grabbing drinks, isn'talways the best option.
A lot of people that's not theirinterest or that's not what they
do.
So whether you chat with themand you're in a volleyball
league, or you want to go to adog park or grab coffee.
(10:54):
That typically is a little biteasier when someone is aligns
with the same point as you andyour career.
And that's just a starting pointto me.
Once you start having thoseconversations, usually.
Things evolve through the eventwhere, you will be talking with
someone else.
Maybe they'll see a friend, oryou'll see a friend, you join
the group, and then thingstransition into other
(11:15):
conversations a lot morenaturally.
But if you're thinking justnetworking event number one, and
first five minutes, look forpeople that are your age that
seem friendly.
And that usually translates to amore successful evening of
easier conversations.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (11:32):
Yeah, if we're talking about events
right now, there's actually avery short section in the book I
want to read, because I thinkthat might also add to what
you're sharing.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (11:40):
I love that.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (11:41):
what your recommendation is, people
you can feel more comfortablewith and that you can connect
with to start conversations andwarm up the conversational gear.
Because we're not talking topeople all day.
So it can be very uncomfortableto go into a room if we already
in social mode.
So one of the other things thatI would recommend on top of that
is so to ensure you get noticedat events, introduce yourself to
(12:05):
anyone that seems to bedirecting others or working in
the room.
These individuals are typicallythe event organizers or event
regulars are extra welcoming andcan facilitate introductions to
others.
So when you enter into an event,it can be very easy to warm up
that kind of social aspect ofyourself.
If you talk to the people thatare just.
(12:25):
I'm like a social rocket fuel.
So they generally are theorganizers, the speakers, the
regulars, they seem to bedirecting people, volunteers.
They can, and you can even tellthem, trying to find people in
the talent development space.
And they'll go, Oh, I know Roxycomes here all the time.
I'll point Roxy out for you.
(12:47):
And so that's a good way to getlike a quick in when you're at
an event.
The other piece was.
Another tip for standing out isto attend events at times when
there will likely be lowerattendance, such as holidays,
during bad weather, or whencompeting events are scheduled.
Attending an event when peoplehave reasons not to helps you
stand out and increases yourchance of creating lasting
(13:07):
impression.
So that would be like, Iactually came up with this and
it stuck with me.
It was a really cold, snowy dayin Chicago.
And there was an event that Ireally wanted to go to.
And I was like, ah, it's reallyuncomfortable.
I don't really want to go there,but I was like, I'm committed to
this.
I'm going, I'm networking.
(13:28):
I went to the event.
It's probably like a third ofthe people that normally come.
The host was there because it'stheir event.
And every single person in thatroom, like we're able to connect
on the fact that it was terribleoutside and they had a greater
chance to build a relationship.
And the host remembered that.
and everybody else there.
Cause it was a very importantday for that person.
(13:50):
Cause they, they had this event.
They didn't think people weregoing to show up.
And so also think about thatwhen you're trying to like,
should I go to this thing?
Should I not go to this thing?
It's raining outside.
I hope this story gives you alittle extra effort, a little
extra kind of oomph to go outthere because it can actually
really help you.
You actually create a prettymemorable experience for the
people that are there.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (14:08):
Yeah, that.
Automatically creates a mutuallyshared experience, getting
soaked in rain or driving ortaking a train and trudging
through the snow, whatever itmight be instantly, everyone's
gotten through the same journeytogether.
It's like the ships landed.
You all made it safely.
Not that's what you should talkabout all night, but I've seen
that myself.
(14:28):
And the first part from yourbook that you read About finding
someone who can makeintroductions.
If you keep your eyes open, youwill see that person.
It might be the local chamber ofcommerce leader or CEO.
It might be, like you said, theevent organizer.
You can usually tell if it's oneof the first people that has a
(14:50):
name tag or their name tag looksdifferent.
Sometimes that's a way, but thatadvice from your book, fearless
is, I've seen this a thousandtimes and those people are
always super eager to makeintroductions because one, they
organize the event and theirmeasurement of success is people
having a good time meeting eachother, being comfortable, and
they want that because they wantto hold more of these or that's
(15:14):
maybe that's their jobdescription.
A chamber of commerce leader orwhatever else is invigorating
business in the area from myexperience.
I'm so glad you said that.
Cause I wouldn't have, I'mreally glad that you read from
that passage because I've seenthat happen.
And I've also asked that Hey, Idon't know anyone here where.
Where should I start?
Or do you do you have someoneyou can make an introduction to?
(15:35):
I don't have anyone to talk to.
Those people it'll make theirday.
They'll be like, oh yeah, youshould talk to Jimmy over here.
And Alice does this and this.
And you have to meet thisperson.
They do this.
It works.
It'll work every time.
They, especially because theyunderstand how awkward it is and
how uncomfortable it is to notknow anyone.
And they want to help you becomfortable.
And, It's one of those things,if you don't ask, it's you'll
(15:56):
meet people.
But if you don't ask forsomething like that, it won't
happen.
People won't typically juststart introducing you to other
folks.
We've been talking about inperson networking, which I think
is still super important.
I think it has an advantage overonline networking or meeting
people, connecting with peopleonline, but they're just totally
(16:18):
different animals because youcan't target someone in an event
like you can online.
Getting out, showing your face,especially in your community,
whether you live in a huge cityor a mid sized town, doing that
just helps your career and youroutlook blossom.
Just like you said, the personyou met did this and this, that
(16:39):
exact, I can paint.
I can connect the dots in mycareer from my internship I had
in college and the kind peoplethere that I would go to some, a
couple networking events thereand they'd make introductions
that led to that first job Ihad.
It's just going to that oneevent that newspaper sales ad
sales job I had going to thatevent, meeting the right people
(17:01):
and so on and so forth.
And I think in this day and ageof zoom meetings and why even
what we're doing now, you don'tget that.
Energy of the room and exposureto people that you wouldn't have
targeted through a linkedinmessage.
You didn't know they exist Theyyou didn't know their business
or industry even existed.
(17:22):
that's the thing about in personNetworking that's a little more
interesting is it's a more of awild card I've seen business
owners will like somebody.
Someone will be maybe earlier intheir career and maybe they're
trying to sell something.
And there's a business ownerthat's completely different,
weird industry.
They make shoelaces or whateverand they're like, Hey, I really
(17:45):
like you.
You should come work for me.
Ten years later, you're thekingpin of the shoelace
industry.
Because of this weird thing, andthat is much more difficult to
happen online, but connectingwith people liking you, you
liking them, that can open doorsand create some pretty
interesting journeys, and that'sthe big benefit of it.
Really quick, we should, beforewe move on to networking online,
(18:07):
we should dig into some ways toconnect with networking events,
because some people, it's likewhere do I go?
I'll let you start with that.
I'm still thinking about it.
But what are some ways to lookup networking events in your
local area and selecting theright ones to go to?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31 (18:23):
I'm happy that you called out the
power of networking in person.
I do think like you have to havea balance because I know some
people that just are reallyuncomfortable with networking
virtually.
And so don't do it at all.
And networking in person, it'sgood, but it also is random.
And the people that tend to goto networking events, then it's
(18:47):
you have a lot of people thatyou don't, that aren't actually
going to be aligned with whatyou're trying to achieve.
Unless it's a very niche event.
And so online you can get verylike granular and detailed and
the types of person that you'retrying to target.
So you have to be okay with justlike a large investment travel.
Maybe there's some costsinvolved conversations that
(19:08):
maybe don't lead anywhere, forthe chance that like you create
a good impression and you showup in a positive way, some can
actually with you in a morepowerful way because of that one
on one or kind of that, like inperson interaction.
So finding networking events isa little bit of just, are you
going to invest time to go dosome keyword searches?
(19:29):
So there are, there are websiteslike which I know have changed a
little bit now, but meetup.
com.
And as you meet people at anevent, it shouldn't just be,
okay, great, nice to meet you.
It should be, Hey, you seemreally great.
What other events do you go to?
And you'll find out if thepeople that host and some more
kind of niche events that youwouldn't know about unless you
followed them on Instagram orsaw it online, the local chamber
(19:54):
tends to also have listings, soyou can look up for can go to
those those city websites to seewhat's listed there, but
honestly, the best events thatI've found are like finding the
niche types of people that youwant to connect with, seeing
what type of businesses thereare that cater to them.
generally look at their eventpages or connect to people that
(20:16):
at those places and ask them.
Then the other area that I foundsome really good events on our
coworking spaces.
So if you're in Austin, Texas,capital factory has two events a
day, pretty much nonstop.
And those events might notalways be the best.
They, there are some that areamazing, but the people that go
to them know about other eventstoo.
So again, reiterating, like youhave to talk to people to find
(20:40):
out who is really the host, thehostess with the there is.
Yeah,
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (20:47):
I did a Google search for just
networking events near me.
And there's a business mixer, Isee a health and wellness
professionals networking, newnetworking.
If there's any publications inyour area, if there is like a
business journal, they do tendto hold pretty good events
because they other companieswill host them for them.
(21:08):
The young professional networks,Have a lot of events and that
will help you find other events.
If the goal is just being aroundpeople who you mutually enjoy,
there's not so much pressure.
With online, maybe you don'tknow the exact person you want
to get a hold of, you know thetype of person you want to get a
hold of, and you know why.
What are some strategies for ajob seeker, someone wants to get
(21:31):
in at a certain company, Or theywant to meet people and just
have a bigger network in generalof maybe people in their same
industry or job title, how doyou do that online?
Yeah,
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_0 (21:44):
events, and I mentioned this, and I
didn't, wasn't as explicit, butI'm going to be explicit because
I think you brought it up too.
you're going to a job seekerevent, and so sorry, because I
think those are probablybeneficial for some support.
But if everyone's looking for ajob, probably not going to be
the best place for you to get ajob.
But, if, let's say you'reinterested in working at Nike,
(22:07):
And Nike has fitness classes andruns throughout your
neighborhood.
I bet you someone in themarketing department from Nike
is probably at that run.
And I bet there's people at thatrun that also like running,
which maybe you do, and areinterested in sports like you
do.
And maybe also they have othercontacts at companies.
And so that's probably a betteruse of your time.
And so let's say same target.
(22:28):
I'm interested in working atNike.
It's not just about applying toa job and talking to a
recruiter.
That is a standard traditionalway of maybe getting into the
company.
It's about meeting people atthat company and building
relationships with them so thatthey know you and think about
you when opportunities come up,or maybe even recognize your
name push your applicationforwards, like what would
(22:52):
happen, I imagine, let's sayyou're at the Nike run and you
meet three people that work atNike.
one of them is a recruiter andyou apply to a job and they
recognize your name and they go,Oh, that person's from the run.
I'm going to push them forwardand give them a call.
The same thing happens whenyou're online.
So oftentimes people try to gothrough the recruiter.
They may if they even do anysort of networking, I'm like,
Hey, I applied to this job.
(23:13):
First mistake is when you'renetworking, you're not doing it
for a job.
You're doing it to buildrelationships.
So we talked about before, butyou want to ask yourself like
what relationship would be mostbeneficial to form to create for
this job?
So if it's a position, Iprobably would target a director
of marketing or a VP ofmarketing or CMO, whoever your
(23:33):
boss would be, whoever, who'sthe person that you might be
working for, or who's the personthat would be like a skip level,
like your boss's boss, or whomight be someone that I might
work with from a peerperspective, it appears not as,
it's not as beneficial, butstill can be great about
learning about the company andbuilding relationship and
connecting.
And so even before any sort ofoutreach, you can engage on
(23:54):
their profiles.
You can find them on LinkedIn.
You can like their posts.
You can share one of them.
You can comment.
And what you're doing there isyou're making yourself more
familiar to the person.
It's go to the same coffee shopevery day and you see the same
person, all of a sudden thatperson, like by the third day,
you're probably nodding to them.
By the seventh day, you'reprobably making a comment or a
joke to them.
by the 13th day, you probablymight even sit down and talk to
(24:15):
them for a bit or exchangeinformation if it's going well.
So you got to think about thatas well.
When it comes to like onlinenetworking, how am I making
myself more familiar?
And since you're not justreaching out for a job, you're
reaching out to learn about themand the company.
Your outreach is a very simple,very explicit, Hey your career
path seems really neat, or Hey,your background seems really
(24:35):
interesting, or Hey, I've alwaysthought Nike was a really cool
company because of X, Y, Z, it'dbe great to connect and learn
about your work, period, greatto connect, be great to connect.
Oftentimes people tend to makethat first message or outreach a
page long.
No one's going to read that.
They don't know you.
They don't even think aboutthis.
When you're building arelationship, how much time
would someone invest in astranger?
(24:57):
Very minimal.
So one or two sentences, howmuch time would someone invest
in someone they've connectedwith?
Maybe a little bit more, maybetwo to four sentences.
How much will someone read ifyou've had a phone call with
them or they've replied a backand forth conversation with you
a couple of times, probably alot more, probably more willing
to jump on the phone too.
So this is like a very highlevel overview of networking.
(25:17):
We still haven't talked about,wow, how do you feel confident
in networking?
But I think it's important thatwe cover these tactics and so
turn it over to you.
To get your opinion on it, too.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (25:27):
those messages you send are crucial to
get right.
I think the best way to templateit, which I think you should, is
to think about How you would doit correctly in person.
So say that you're in a, at anevent and the C we're talking
about Nike, you'll say the CEOor chief marketing officer of
(25:48):
Under Armour is there and you'rein marketing, maybe you've been
in it for five or 10 years andyou feel like you've you've
plateaued.
And you think they'll like you.
So you wouldn't come up and say,Hey, I'm Dan.
When I was 12 years old, Iinjured my knee running, but I
got over it and then I got goodgrades and then I went to
(26:09):
college and I studied this andthen I might got my first job
and it was really great, but Ididn't like this.
And then my girlfriend dumped meand I was really sad.
So I was, Took some time offfrom work, but now I'm really
not quite sure what to do.
I have this current, right?
Something like that.
And maybe that's not the bestexample, but I've seen a lot of
messages, just like you said, orcover letters that are like
(26:31):
telling your life story.
And it's all the, usually it'sthe worst parts, not the best
parts.
And no, if you're at an eventdoing it the right way, you come
up and you say.
Hey Mark, I've been followingUnder Armour a long time, and
I've seen how you've helped formthe brand.
I hope to do something asimpactful someday.
You've been an inspiration tome.
Would you ever Consider grabbingcoffee.
(26:52):
Can I buy you coffee and if youcould share how you navigated
your career, maybe at the pointthat I'm at right now, and any
advice you have I would be sodeeply grateful.
Nothing like that.
And something like that in amessage, I think, goes a lot
longer than telling your story.
If you're a job seeker theydon't If you're talking about
how you've been laid off oryou're on the job search, all
(27:13):
those things, they're going toknow Oh, they want me to hire
them.
And I don't do that is going tobe their thought unless they are
like a recruiter or something.
So approaching it with, I'd saycomplimenting them, not kissing
up, but being like, basicallyyou've done what I aspire to do
and you've done it in such a waythat I find really intriguing.
(27:34):
Would you consider spending sometime with me to share your
wisdom so that I can Maybenavigate my career in a more
meaningful and strategic way.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (27:46):
Yes.
And even just, hi, Mark.
It's we were talking aboutwalking up to an event.
I want to take this step backand go you see someone at an
event, you walk up and you go,hey, how's it going?
Oh, you work at Under Armour?
Awesome.
I love that company.
Sounds really interesting.
How do you start work there?
It's you literally ask yourself,if this message was a
conversation, would it be weird?
(28:06):
And.
And then also ask yourself, ifyou're talking to someone pretty
high up and you're trying to getthat, like informational session
with them, compliments go veryfar.
But at the same time, you wantto make sure that when you're
reaching out to someone andtalking to them, that you're not
making yourself like a lowerstatus.
Like you're not making it likethat.
It's a favor to talk to you.
There are some people like a CEOof a company, maybe that's the
(28:28):
case.
Maybe you're at a part of yourprofessional world where that's
the case.
But if the person could just beyour boss or maybe a peer, it's
I bet we would have someinteresting things to talk
about.
I'd love to learn more aboutyour career path.
I can be just a little carefulabout lowering your status.
Cause then what happens isyou're only going to get people
to say yes, that are interestedin helping, like being a mentor
(28:49):
and men generally, if you arebeing mentored, that person
isn't considering you for a jobbecause they see you as someone
that isn't ready yet.
And we want to make sure that weavoid the isn't ready yet
perspective.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (29:01):
Very well said.
I think that's a much betterapproach than what I said.
And also for my in personexample, don't come up to
someone and even if it's a briefstory, right?
You'd come up to him and belike, Hey Mark, I'm Matthew.
That's a better way.
Skip my advice on the, even ifit's a short story and I agree.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (29:18):
Your advice is very important when
you find somebody that really isa little bit further in your
career than you are, where youwant to be compliments
compliment, show that you knowwhat they do and their path, and
then ask them if they would beopen to getting a quick virtual
chat or a call.
I think that's, that is key.
And we don't do that enough.
And I think people that areearly on in their career have
(29:39):
such a gift.
early on in your career.
Even it's like being in school.
You just tell someone you're astudent.
It's like literally like a 95percent probably success rate in
getting people to talk to youbecause they want to help you.
LinkedIn has started offering AIhelp.
Be very careful.
I've had some people I wasworking with a client the other
day and he's I used AI and itwas great.
(30:00):
It made everything really fast.
I'm like, okay, can I look atthe messages?
They were really bad.
They, it was very formal.
The English wasn't correct.
Very be very careful about usingAI.
At least you have to make surethat you edit it after you use
it.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (30:16):
I can tell when people email me AI
stuff.
And my advice for that, like forcontent generation, that's a
whole nother conversation.
I really, I use Grammarly and ithelps with sentence
restructuring where I'll getbusy and I'll type something out
and it's like this sentencecould be half as long and you
need to put the end at thebeginning and the beginning at
the end just for writingmessages.
(30:39):
I, I think Grammarly is great.
I pay for the premium versionbecause I think it's so helpful
for me.
And I'm actually a pretty goodspeller.
I have a pretty good handle ongrammar.
On the English language thatsomething like that will make
your messages more professional,which we haven't talked about
make sure you spell check andthat you're not missing any
apostrophes or periods or I amlike the biggest user of the
(31:01):
pregnant pause ever like thedash in my sense is anyone
that's emailed with me is likeprobably oh my gosh dude use a
period but Yeah, so for writing,for content, AI, it all looks
the same.
It's greetings fellow traveler.
I am a what word do I see?
I am a distinguished marketingprofessional, right?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(31:22):
And that would be my tip.
Use Grammarly or whatever elseis out there until they sponsor
the show.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say usewhoever, use Grammarly or
whatever's better.
But yeah.
Yeah, make sure you get themessaging right.
When I do stuff like that, Iread it over, over and over and
over.
Sometimes I'll take a step awayfor a couple hours and come
back.
I'm not a natural, like salespitch writer.
(31:44):
And so I think the simpler, thebetter, which is where I get
hurt is I'll make it too longand I'll make it short and I'll
struggle with what details toinclude what's enough detail to
get a response without being toolong.
It's not my gift.
So I think you can always run itthrough chat, GPT, see what.
improvements it makes, if it canmake it shorter or better, but
(32:06):
Benjamin said, be really carefulwith stuff like that because
it'll be hokey.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-31 (32:11):
And honestly, just don't overthink
the first outreach.
It's really simple.
you're connecting to someonethat's a marketing, and I would
recommend, by the way, I know wesaid a marketing leader
connecting to a technologyleader, I would first try to
connect with like your futureboss.
So it would be, you're amarketing director, that'd be
like a senior director or VP orCMO.
(32:33):
And then also try to connectwith a peer.
A little bit different of anoutreach because for example,
from a marketing leader, try toconnect with a marketing leader.
I'd say something along thelines like, Try to expand my
network of marketing leaders inthe X, Y, Z area, Austin area.
That's it.
That's your outreach.
If that person connects with youand doesn't respond, then you
can follow up and be like, To beconnected, really interested in
(32:55):
your background.
It'd be great to have a quickchat.
Very simple.
You don't have to promoteyourself.
You don't have to say anything.
If you actually, if you're onLinkedIn, they see your profile.
So make sure your profile is upto date.
Now, if this is like an actualyou're like, Hey, try to expand
my network in, in marketingcompanies, like maybe it's a
company or an industry foundyour pro found your profile
(33:17):
through a LinkedIn search wouldbe great to connect.
Simple very short very sweet.
You're not selling yourself.
If you start selling yourself,you start coming off as salesy.
If you come off as salesy,someone's going to think that
you want something.
If you want, if someone thinksyou want something, they're not
going to talk to you.
It's.
they think that it's atransaction, even if they know,
Oh, this person's probablylooking for a job by focusing on
(33:39):
the relationship and by showingup by focusing on the
relationship, you're going toincrease the chances of that
message converts.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (33:46):
I'm the last person to take cold
outreach advice from.
I'm better than a lot of people,but I'm not a master.
And I think once you get reallygood, it's actually like a
vicious cycle of it actuallygets, starts to get worse.
Just like Benjamin said, don'toverthink it.
One of the things I've noticedin my career I've worked for.
And I've done work for someextraordinary leaders and the
(34:09):
pattern I almost always see isthe more actually important and
busy they get, the shorter theiremails are.
And so you get from, like forme, if someone sent me something
like, how does this look?
I'd give some notes and say,that looks great.
Be positive and you say what Ilike about it, blah, blah, blah.
(34:30):
I don't know, CEO or someonewho's really busy at a big
company.
Like the response, like that'sgreat.
And that would be it.
And so integrating some of thatinto your messaging, I think
does help not, you want to makesure you're not being rude or
short, but just like Benjaminsaid, like reaching out and just
being like something, it'd begreat to connect.
Found you on a search.
(34:50):
It'd be great to.
Chat about this thing.
You talked about making sureyour LinkedIn profile is up to
date.
One thing really quick, makesure your work history is up to
date.
If one of the things I'd notice,which maybe I'm too nitpicky,
but if you've worked forcompanies that have profiles on
LinkedIn, make sure Your workhistory is connected with the
real company and not like an oldfake version or not fake like
(35:13):
old version with no photo.
It really does make it yourprofile just it enriches it for
whatever reason.
And then for your photo, if it'sold or dorky, like the simplest
thing I coach people on this.
You can typically get headshotsin your area for a hundred bucks
for a couple like corporateheadshots, maybe 200.
(35:33):
If you can't do that, or youdon't have time, just put on
your out work outfit, havesomeone grab their cell phone,
go outside and just put onportrait mode, get some trees
behind you or mountains orwhatever.
And just take 50 pictures, justgo all over the place.
And one of them will turn out.
Better than what you have onthere.
If it's like a clipped pictureof you at Christmas or you at a
wedding or you out at the barswith your friends where there
(35:57):
happened to be a professionalphotographer or like a nice
camera, taking pictures ofeveryone at like the club.
Do that.
Update it, make it look nice,smile or do your pose not having
a photo.
I think if you don't have aphoto, no one will.
typically respond to you.
Like it's just how it works andhaving a decent looking photo,
iPhones or Samsung Galaxies,whatever else these days,
(36:19):
especially portrait mode.
They take like as good of apicture basically as a DSLR.
A lot of it's just lighting inlike the, having good lighting
around you.
Those little things will add upwhere if you have a LinkedIn.
With no picture or kind of alousy picture and it's one job
in your work experience it lookslike a an empty town or like an
(36:41):
empty room Like it doesn't seemlike either you care or that you
even use LinkedIn When I've seenprofiles like that if I need to
contact someone and I see thatI'm just like this person
doesn't use LinkedIn or likethey seem like a who runs this?
It's like an odd stranger,right?
So those are little things youcan do that I think will help at
least personalize you a littlebit, humanize you, and make it
(37:03):
seem like you're taking thiswhole thing seriously.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (37:07):
Yeah.
If you look like you're a fakeprofile real quick, like not
going to be very good for youroutreach.
You can also use, this is whereAI does come in handy.
There are some really great AIprofile photo tools, so you can
explore those cheaper thanprofessional headshots.
And they're pretty good andshows that you're a little
techie, which can be nice ifyou're wondering how to get a
(37:30):
good photo.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111337 (37:31):
If you Google AI headshot software
corrector or whatever, there'ssome cool options out there.
Let's say that we message thistarget person and they don't
respond, and it's been a weekand a half.
What would you do from there?
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (37:47):
Thank you for saying week and a half,
because people, as it's socommon, they get, they freak out
if the person doesn't respondwithin 24 hours.
Just so you know, people havelives and they have jobs and and
a half is a very decenttimeframe for someone to have
seen something and respond toit.
please do not send.
Multiple messages within 24hours or 48 hours.
(38:09):
Send it and forget about it.
Just send it and forget aboutit.
Try to let it go out of yourmind.
If you don't, you will seemanxious.
You will seem desperate.
You will not seem like aprofessional.
So please timing is veryimportant.
Let's say they do connect withyou and then your next and they
don't respond.
The message would just besomething along the lines of,
Hey, just pinging this up theinbox.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (38:30):
Yep,
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_0 (38:30):
Looking forward to talking period.
No response.
Wait another week and a half.
Then you send a message.
I know, we're all pretty busynowadays.
LinkedIn can also be like ablack hole.
If you see this still be open toa chat, have a great day.
That's it simple.
And if you decide that you wantto try getting ahold of them,
(38:52):
Instagram, if it's like acertain person, emails can be
found online, so there's mightnot also be on LinkedIn and they
might also really value thatpersistence.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11 (39:03):
Getting a hold of people the right way
is really tricky some peoplejust aren't super into LinkedIn.
If someone did this to me, itwould work.
So you messaged me on LinkedIn.
If I'm on LinkedIn, I'm probablyin the middle of something.
I'm probably needing to dosomething and I like to stay on
task.
So I might see your message.
I might really quickly read it,but I'm going to move on to
something else.
Maybe forget.
I really like surfacing this tothe top of your inbox.
(39:25):
People do that to me and I'vestarted doing it myself.
It doesn't bother me at all.
It's thanks for the reminder.
And so if you sent a followupmessage and I think it's a, it's
feels natural to follow up andreiterate your first message.
Hey, this is really important tome.
Wanted to see if maybe you'reavailable next week, blah, blah,
blah.
Instead of that saying, Hey,surfacing this to the top of
your inbox, by the way, if itworks better for you, my email
(39:46):
address is dah.
Look forward to connecting.
Or you could say, Hey ifLinkedIn isn't where you
communicate, shoot me an emailat this address and we can get
connected.
So maybe giving them anotheroption and maybe they'll copy
and paste that.
Maybe they'll just reply to themessage, but I like to live in
my email inbox.
That's probably going away, butI will I will die at the email
(40:08):
inbox.
I don't even text.
I don't email friends, but I'mnot even big into texting.
It's email me and I'm on itanywhere else and I'm probably
gonna lose track of it becauseI'm busy and it's just not my
workflow.
So let's close with you, you getthe meeting, right?
This person talks to you on Zoomor in person, you meet for a
(40:31):
coffee.
I'll offer my piece of advice onlike following up and
maintaining the relationship andI'd like to hear from you as
well.
So maybe it's a short termeffort, right?
Hey, like you're looking for ajob and you're trying to connect
with people.
Let's say that you are reachingout and you're playing a little
bit more of the long game.
What I think is really effectivein networking, especially with
(40:55):
people who are maybe a couplerungs ahead of you is they don't
want you to bring them all yourproblems.
They don't want you to send thema question even every month.
I don't think if they invite youlike, Hey, I'd like to be your
mentor.
Let's meet for coffee once amonth.
That's different.
What I've done is when I askpeople for advice, whether it's
on LinkedIn or in person oranywhere else, they give me some
(41:17):
time, some feedback.
I follow up, whether it be amonth or three months later, and
I share how their insightimpacted my results.
And people really like that.
Because it says that youlistened, you did what they
said, and then you're followingup, right?
You're just telling them here'show it worked out.
See, if they share this stuffwith you, and they ha would, if
(41:38):
they happen to follow up withyou, and hey, how'd it go, and
you're like, hey, look, I neverreally got to it, I'm really
busy, I've got a lot going on,it's I gave you an hour of my
time or 30 minutes, or I giveyou my best insight.
And that's not happening again.
But if you follow up in shortterm, couple of weeks, long
term, it could be a month ortwo, and I would just say, Hey,
so appreciate your time.
I took your advice.
I did what you shared and here'swhat happened because of that.
(42:02):
Dot like 3.
Thank you so much.
Really appreciate ourfriendship, Matthew.
Something like that.
That's very rewarding to peoplewho give time.
And that also, I think it's thethank you and all of that.
It also leaves you in a goodspot.
If you do want to follow up withthat person again, whether it be
in the near future or long term,you've returned the favor, at
(42:26):
least in a way of showing, Thatyou appreciate it and that their
advice works.
That would be my one piece fornetworking that might not apply
to every situation, if someonehelped you get a job, it would
be perfect.
You fall up and say, Hey, I'vebeen in this role for I'm at
four weeks now, this wouldn'thave happened because of you.
I can't tell you how grateful Iam.
Your friend, Matthew, for otherthings that might not work, if
(42:49):
obviously if they don't apply toreply to you or you don't really
get anywhere.
But overall, that is my strategyto keep those things warm.
And if you need to ask anotherfavor later, you're in a really
good spot.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (43:03):
Yeah, I was actually going to say this
when we were talking about inperson.
If someone introduces you tosomeone, even at an in person
event, go back and say, Hey,this guy was great.
XYZ.
This is why do you know anybodyelse?
Just that follow up is reallyimportant.
People want to know that youlistened to them, that it made
an impact.
That's why they're trying tohelp you.
Follow up and then follow up.
It's literally it is a wonderfuladvice.
(43:24):
It's not you don't even need areason.
You could even just say, Ireally appreciate the last time
we talked.
It really still resonates withme.
I think about it prettyregularly.
Hope you're doing well.
Cheering you on.
Even something like that.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_11133 (43:38):
I'll close with this.
I've even recently reached outto past friends or colleagues
and peers and asked for helpwith things or introductions and
not gotten a response.
Just being honest and otherpeople have been super helpful,
but there's people who, if theyasked me, I would totally do it
for them and I just didn't getanything back.
I say that because you can'tlook at this as something like,
(44:02):
don't pigeonhole yourself intoone person to, one message and
two followups.
And that's it.
You do have to cast a wider net.
And if the person at Nikedoesn't get back to you, my
advice would be, think, say,screw it.
I'm going to, who's their topcompetitor.
I'm going to ask that person'sadvice.
If they don't get back to you,you say, who's Adidas top
(44:22):
competitor.
I'm going to reach out to UnderArmour.
And.
Overall don't be discouraged.
You won't get a response toevery message.
And if you send one message,you're in my opinion, you're
setting yourself up for failure.
Now don't be a spammer.
Don't message a hundred people.
But don't think of this as onemessage is going to get me the
(44:43):
result or one outreach is goingto get me the result I need.
And don't take it personally ifthey don't respond.
It doesn't mean they hate you.
It doesn't mean they don't wantto help.
It's just maybe it wasn't theexact right time for them.
And maybe you've been in thesame spot in your life.
Maybe a friend help ask you tohelp them move and you didn't
make it right.
That doesn't mean you hate themor that you never want to help
anyone.
Maybe it just wasn't the righttime for you to do the thing
(45:04):
that someone asked you to do.
Don't get discouraged by that.
Keep a broader view.
Think big, right?
Think of competitors or peoplein the same industry, other
people you can reach out to, oryou can think of other people at
the same company or think aboutMutual connections you have Hey,
I'm trying to get ahold of Johnat Nike.
I saw that you worked there forthree years.
(45:25):
Do you happen to know anyonethat knows him or have any
advice on getting in contactwith him?
Something like that.
So it doesn't always have to bedirect to the source.
It can also be contactingpeople, LinkedIn tells you who
you're mutually connected to,what your degrees of connection
are.
So those are things that you, sothat you don't get obsessed or
hyper focused on one thing thatwill set you up for.
(45:49):
I think disappointment, if youapproach it with one person, one
or two messages, and that's it.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (45:57):
Yeah, it doesn't matter who says no.
It matters who says yes.
And if you're struggling, findme on LinkedIn.
Dr.
Benjamin Ritter sent me amessage.
Let me know what's happening.
I'll give you a good kick getyou to keep going.
And if you're interested in thebook, make sure to check out
Becoming Fearless, by the way.
Pretty much anywhere books aresold.
love to hear from anyone that'slistening to this.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_1113 (46:16):
Yeah, it's fresh off the press.
Get yourself a copy.
It's fantastic.
Dr.
Benjamin Ritter is a reallygreat writer, I think you take a
philosophical, in depth approachto what you write.
We'll link to it in thisepisode's description and
connect with Dr.
Benjamin Ritter on LinkedIn.
And let's see, what's your titleon LinkedIn?
If people just don't link to youfrom this episode description,
(46:38):
if they just want to find you onLinkedIn.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05-3 (46:41):
type in Dr.
Benjamin Ritter.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_111 (46:43):
That's it.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (46:44):
Yeah.
matthew_1_05-31-2024_ (46:45):
Benjamin, thank you so much for joining
us.
Congratulations on your book.
dr--benjamin-ritter_1_05- (46:48):
Thank you so much for having me.
I love this conversation, andpeople, try networking out.
Send me a message.
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