February 4, 2025 • 33 mins
In this episode, we dive into perfectionism—how it impacts job seekers, employees, and leaders—and explore strategies to overcome its pitfalls without losing its advantages. Our guest is Dr. Gregory Chasson, a board-certified cognitive behavioral therapist, researcher, educator, and author of the new book, Flawed. Dr. Chasson breaks down why perfectionism can be both an asset and a hindrance, explaining how rigid thinking and excessive expectations can lead to anxiety, procrastination, and workplace friction.
He introduces the “Emphasis Framework” (A, B, and C), a practical tool for deciding how much energy to give each task, guided by your core values—rather than an all-or-nothing approach that can derail productivity. You’ll also learn how to be genuine about imperfections in a job interview, how to avoid paralysis by analysis, and why resilience and cognitive flexibility matter more than flawless performance.
Whether you’re searching for a job, leading a team, or simply aiming to strike a healthier balance between ambition and well-being, this conversation offers real-world insights you can apply today.
Key Takeaways
- The difference between aiming high and getting stuck in rigid perfectionism
- Why perfectionism often creates anxiety and stalls progress—especially in job hunting
- How to harness the strengths of perfectionistic traits (e. g., conscientiousness) while reducing the downsides
- Practical steps from Flawed to cultivate cognitive flexibility, better decision-making, and more balanced expectations
Resources & Links
- Get the book: Flawed by Dr. Gregory Chasson
- More about Dr. Chasson: gregchasson.com
- International OCD Foundation: IOCDF.org
- Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies: ABCT.org
https://moveupcareers.com/strategycall
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-job-interview-experience/id1538223546
https://moveupcareers.com/survey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (00:01):
Many of us feel pressure to be
perfect during our jobinterviews and On to employment.
I Wonder why.
I know as a past executiverecruiter, director of town
acquisition, I've talked to alot of people.
I've never tried to find someonewho's perfect.
I just want people who have theright skills for the job.
(00:21):
But why do we feel thatpressure?
Why do we get so nervous for ajob interview or even once you
hit submit on that resume thatyou've tried to polish?
Well, Dr.
Gregory Chasson is here to help.
an esteemed psychologist, boardcertified cognitive behavioral
therapist, researcher, educator,and internationally invited
(00:43):
speaker.
Through his rich and diverseexperience, he has imparted
transformational insights andstrategies around the globe to
help communities, andindividuals like you address
health challenges, such asperfectionism by using practical
and feasible strategies.
His brand new book, Flawedoffers practical solutions about
(01:06):
in the workplace.
I love that book titled Flawed.
Dr.
Chaston,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (01:11):
Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (01:12):
to the job interview experience.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (01:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (01:17):
you talk about how perfectionism can
be a double edged sword in theworkplace.
Can you elaborate a little biton why some employers seem to
see it as an asset while it canactually create some problems?
greg-chasson_1_04-1 (01:30):
Absolutely, I do think it's a double edged
sword in that there are lots ofstrong qualities that you want
in a Perfectionistic employeethat you want to leverage.
There's no doubt about it.
There's a reason that this isoften used as a cavalier
response to the question, whatis your greatest weakness?
And the reason is because thereare positive features of
(01:54):
perfectionism.
People try to spin that responseso that it sounds like a
strength when they're beingasked about a weakness, a bit of
a clever,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (02:03):
that in an interview before.
No one's ever said that to me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (02:06):
Well, it's, I've heard it plenty of
times.
Yeah.
It's sort of a cliche, tiredresponse and you know, you're
almost expecting it out thegate.
And the truth is when you hearit as somebody that has some
training or background inperfectionism, it actually makes
you wince.
Like I wince when I hear thisbecause actually perfectionism
can be quite a challenge.
(02:27):
It can be quite paralyzing forpeople.
So be careful with thisparticular strategy if the
person knows a little bit aboutperfectionism, you could be
shooting yourself in the foot abit but it is a double edged
sword.
There are tremendously positivequalities that come with
somebody that hasperfectionistic tendencies.
They tend to be very loyal.
They tend to be very honest.
(02:48):
They're some of the hardestworking people you'll ever meet.
They have a tremendously goodattention to detail.
Oh, and conscientiousness.
My goodness, this is probablythe strongest feature.
And, you know, if you were totake those ingredients, most
people, most employers wouldsay, Give me that.
That sounds amazing.
The problem is that sometimesit's so intense, it becomes so
(03:08):
problematic, that it becomesparalyzing.
It stops people from movingforward.
They get stuck in things likethe process of doing tasks.
They get stuck inprocrastination, which is a
really common feature.
They become stuck on the rulesinstead of the principles, and
they have trouble seeing the bigpicture.
And I'm happy to elaborate onsome of these, but my book goes
(03:31):
through a lot of this, and Ithink the last chapter is
something that people miss orthe second to last chapter, the
last two chapters, is when itextends outward and becomes
moralistic, people can become alittle bit self righteous, and I
think that's what really createsa toxic culture in the work
environment.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (03:46):
well said and to help with the rest
of our conversation.
Is there a way to identify who'sactually a perfectionist versus
people who say, I'm aperfectionist because of a
picture is crooked, then itbothers me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (04:02):
Mm,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (04:03):
and I've seen this with OCD as well.
People say, Oh, I'm OCD.
It's like, well, I think thatthere's actually probably a
deeper level to identifying thatthan maybe even liking your
bathroom sink to be clean.
Right?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (04:14):
right.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (04:15):
With perfectionism, how do we
identify when people use it askind of a vague weakness that
they have that's, as you'veshowed and said is, is actually
maybe a kind of a strength.
People who like things to begood, but they don't actually
struggle with it at that levelversus your understanding of
what a perfectionist actuallyis.
What's the difference there?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (04:36):
Superb question.
They're often confused.
Where do you draw the line?
I would say the two ingredientsthat I look for, cognitive
rigidity.
How rigid is the individual withtheir thinking?
Can they think outside the box?
Can they adapt?
Can they pivot?
That's it.
are they able to shift?
And if they can't, that'susually a bit of a red flag that
(04:58):
there's some problematicperfectionism going on.
I would say that's probably thenumber one ingredient of
perfectionism that separates itfrom something like high
expectations.
Really those are the two thingswe're talking about,
perfectionism versus highexpectations.
High expectations are not rigid,you accommodate it, you adjust
(05:19):
when needed.
If the environment tells youthat it's impossible, you make
the shift, but people withperfectionism, they have a
difficult time doing that.
They get sort of stuck.
It's like trying to turn theTitanic before it hits the
iceberg.
And the other ingredient is justthe excessive nature of the
expectations.
So is the sales targetunreasonable?
(05:40):
Is the product deadlineunreasonable?
You combine those twoingredients, you can see where
it can become prettyproblematic, right?
If somebody is really rigidabout their thinking and their
approach, and their expectationsare rigid, you put those two
things together and somebody isextremely unlikely to shift
(06:01):
these unreasonable expectations.
And so it's like essentiallytalking to a brick wall.
Somebody is in a reallydifficult time Pivoting and
adjusting, and it could get theminto trouble.
It sours the workplace aroundpeople as well.
So I look for those two things.
I look for cognitive rigidity,and I look for excessive
unreasonable expectations.
(06:23):
And when those two things aretogether, in particular, I think
that's a pretty big red flag.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (06:27):
as you're speaking, I'm getting
more ideas of how perfectionismcan impact a job search, and
it's broadened just from hearingyou speak.
I think about resumes, whichmaybe perfectionism is a good
quality there,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (06:40):
Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04- (06:41):
Letters.
I also wonder, do you seeoverlap between, Paralysis by
analysis,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (06:47):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12- (06:47):
Would you see a perfectionist maybe
not applying to jobs becausethey're not seeing perfect fit
for them?
Could you dig into how that canhurt job seekers instead of help
them?
greg-chasson_1_04-1 (06:58):
Absolutely.
In fact, in the book, I have anentire chapter on something
called process paralysis, whichis very similar to analysis by
paralysis or, you know, the ideathat people get stuck on the
process doing optimal steps, theoptimal order of steps, the
perfect strategy, getting stuckon even getting started.
Can be a paralyzing process andwhat you combine that with just
(07:22):
getting stuck analyzing and youget those two things going and
somebody might not even get offthe bench to play the game,
right?
And that's exactly the problemthat you see with job seekers,
right?
They'll be looking for theoptimal or perfect job and
they'll get stuck on that ontrying to perfect the process.
So you talk about a resume.
I actually think the resume is aterrible place to look for
(07:44):
perfectionists because we're allsort of wired or sort of
brainwashed to think that theresume needs to be perfect?
Any typo, any weird spacing,?
Microsoft Word will give you ahard time and you'll sit there
for hours trying to figure outhow the formatting is working?
Instead of applying for the job.
But I think the resume is aplace where people will do get
critiqued for imperfections.
(08:05):
And I, so I would suggest notlooking at the resume for
evidence of perfection.
I think in that case, everyonewould look like a perfectionist.
References tend to be difficultto talk to you about this
because You know, who's, who'sgonna, like, come out and say,
out the gate and say, Oh yeah,this person gets paralyzed by
their perfectionism.
In general, if there are cluesfrom a reference, it's probably
(08:26):
subtle.
You know, that they tend to befocused on the details.
Perhaps they might suggestsomething like they get emphatic
about the process or thatthey're very interested in
making sure that there's anefficiency to everything.
I think people get stuck onefficiency quite a lot.
You also brought up aninteresting concept that I talk
about in the book as well, whichis this feeling called not just
(08:46):
right feelings.
Also called not just rightexperiences or NJRF or NJREs.
You see it on the ground like inthe trenches with things like I
need to get this just rightbefore I could submit it I need
to get the margins just right.
I need to make this sentencefeel just right before I move on
I think this probably happens inthe job seeking Sector as well,
(09:07):
right if you're looking for theperfect job, you might get stuck
saying well, okay this hits 90percent but it's not that extra
10 percent doesn't really soundlike me or it doesn't feel like
me Just right.
And to me, that would be amistake.
you miss every shot you don'ttake says the famous Wayne
Gretzky.
I think this is a case where ifyou're fitting 90 percent and a
(09:28):
gut reaction is it doesn't feelright is what's stopping you.
I think you're making a mistake.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024 (09:34):
I think we attribute that quote to
Michael Scott now.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (09:37):
Oh, do we?
Okay.
Yeah.
Michael Scott.
Sure.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (09:40):
Can you think of examples of
competing qualitiesperfectionism and something else
where maybe they do help createa balance or maybe the opposite?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (09:49):
I think what you're describing are
the features of a productivequality worker, pursuing
perfection isn't inherently bad.
It's really the rigidity and theexcessiveness of the
expectations that are theproblem.
And I think the problem withperfectionists is that they're
too extreme on one end.
So I have a framework that I usecalled the Emphasis Framework.
(10:12):
And I see it as a way ofexplaining and thinking about
task prioritization.
And I think it's a framework forunderstanding perfectionism in
general.
People with perfectionism tendto give up.
Everything, what I call EmphasisA, which is 110%, they give it
their all, they lean in and theyleave nothing behind, right?
(10:34):
And the problem is, is they dothis for everything, not just
the things that are important orimportant to them.
And so there are otherstrategies.
Emphasis B, on the other hand,is the get or done strategy,
right?
And I hear you a little bittalking about the get or done
strategy, just be decisive, getor done.
(10:54):
Move on, worry about theaccountability later, or even
just deal with it, right?
But there's also even anemphasis C.
Emphasis C is choosing not to doit at all.
And there's a time and place forall three of these.
Emphasis A really should beguided by your values.
So if you could take one messagehome today, it is values,
values, values.
(11:15):
What is important to you, whatis important to your
organization, What is importantto the other things in your
life, like your marriage, yourparenting, what's important to
you.
And of course, what's importantto your spouse, for example, is
also important to you, notbecause you care about what they
care about, but because you careabout your relationship with
your wife, or your spouse.
(11:36):
And so there's a time and placefor all three of these.
There's a time and place foremphasis A, like if you're
studying for the LSAT, you'retrying to go to law school or
you're putting your resumetogether, that could be a plan
A, or an emphasis A response.
The emphasis B approach,however, is usually the best
strategy for most things inlife.
There's no way to emphasis Aeverything.
(11:58):
It's impossible.
And then there's a time andplace for emphasis C all the
time.
I don't open mail that I know isjunk mail.
I just don't even do it.
I strategically decide it's notworth my energy.
It's not valuable to me.
Sorry for all the mass mailersout there, but I don't open your
mail.
And, I don't answer the customerservice satisfaction survey at
the end of the call.
(12:18):
it's not important to me.
And so you have strategicallydecided what to place your
emphasis on.
Perfectionism is all about overemphasizing a doing way too much
effort for everything notdiscriminating what needs less
effort and then it what happensis that you can't sustain that
(12:39):
and it forces you to theemphasis c so instead of
emphasis c being based on yourvalues and what's strategic it's
forced on you so theperfectionism has dictated your
priorities not you or yourvalues and so i really encourage
people to use your values as acompass for what that, what
needs those differentdelineations.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (13:01):
That's fascinating.
I've never thought of it framedthat way, but I can see how even
a perfectionist could trainthemselves to say will emphasis
be work here?
If so, I've learned to move thatdirection you have any stats on
what percent of maybe the US orworld population are truly?
(13:21):
perfectionists
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (13:23):
I don't have that data on me,
although there is research It'svery difficult to quantify,
because we all fall somewhere onthis spectrum.
Where do you draw the line?
And where you draw the line isthen going to determine whether
or not you have quote unquotePerfectionism.
So I don't see it socategorically like that, which
is probably why I don't have agood estimate for you.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12- (13:43):
Let's speak to that portion that are
perfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (13:46):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (13:47):
say that they are going to their job
interview and they're going tobe asked the strengths and
weaknesses question.
They actually areperfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (13:55):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (13:56):
Saying you're a perfectionist is not a
strategic approach, it's justoveruse, it's a cliche,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (14:01):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (14:01):
are, my guess is, even if you truly
are, if you have a certificateon the wall that says you are a
certified perfectionist, it'sstill not the best response.
How would you coach ourperfectionist job seeker when
they're asked about theirweakness, and it is
perfectionism, how do younavigate that conversation?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (14:21):
Very carefully.
I think, that if someone on theother end knows exactly what
that word means and what itentails, you need to be very
careful about how you describeit.
I do think it's, again, overusedand tired, so I would maybe
encourage you to think ofanother way of describing
strategies or difficulties thatcome with perfectionism.
And you can highlight acomponent of perfectionism
(14:42):
without using that word and bybeing genuine and honest.
So I always encourage people tobe authentic in an interview,
but you also want to bestrategic about what you're
saying.
Like what authentic self youpresent you know, and I think if
you were to describe yourself assomeone who tends to struggle
with knowing when to call itquits, for example, right?
(15:04):
That you tend to have adifficult time knowing how to
balance work and life or thatyou sometimes get overzealous
and excited about something andhave a hard time Moving on to
the next thing, right?
There are ways of framing itthat I think sound a little less
problematic and a little lesscliched but I do think that it
(15:27):
would be wise to take some timeand think about how you want to
craft that answer.
The other thing you could do ispivot entirely and come up with
a totally different domain ofsomething that you struggle with
because you know, it might beworthwhile to do.
Come up with something that'snot in this umbrella and, and
work with that.
And again, if you're trulyperfectionistic, you might have
(15:47):
a hard time pivoting, right?
But if you have some time toprepare, it might be worth
giving it a whirl.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (15:52):
An example of this that I've seen
is.
You don't have to say you're aperfectionist, but you can say,
I've really struggled in mycareer with not accepting other
people's work because it doesn'talign with what I would expect
out of myself if I did it.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (16:09):
You know,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (16:09):
I'm not even saying that's a correct
answer, I've seen that in peoplethat are perfectionists where
they want to take control ofother people's work because it
doesn't meet their standards ofhow.
They would perform it for theweaknesses question.
I think the best way to navigatethat is to start with a weakness
that isn't directly correlatedto the job and talk about you're
(16:32):
fixing it.
Because everyone has weaknessesif you are mature enough to
identify it, which is step oneand then proactive enough to
take steps and tell theinterviewer how you're fixing
it.
Nobody's perfect.
when you can show that you areidentified this, you're humble
enough to admit it, and you'reactually working to fix it.
People who fix their problems,those are the people I like.
(16:52):
Those are the people that,continue to grow.
Why do you think there's so muchpressure and nervousness around
job interviews, which areessentially a conversation, as I
said in the opening, andpressure to perform without any
mistakes.
Why do you think we got here, inthe job interview world?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (17:08):
It's an excellent question.
I think it's a series ofdifferent variables.
Not the least of which is theculture that we're in.
Sort of a toxic achievementculture.
This expectation that you are,you know, this sterling person
with no weaknesses.
I've yet to meet anybody likethat, but you tell me if you do.
They just don't exist in mymind.
(17:28):
But we tend to have this fantasythat they exist and that we need
to be one of them.
And this culture is pushed on usvery early.
And the perfectionism takes holdat that point, very early on.
And some research on this hasshown that perfectionism seems
to be growing.
over the generations.
So this doesn't seem to be goingin the right direction.
(17:49):
And I think it speaks to whatyou're saying, is that there's
this culture of gettingextremely anxious about these
interviews and coming across ina perfect way, which,
ironically, in a self fulfillingprophecy kind of way, makes you
more anxious and then you end upstumbling all over yourself
during the interview.
it's like the student who triesto be perfect on their essay and
never turns it in.
it's the same concept where thevery fact that you're trying so
(18:12):
hard is the actual reason thatyou're going to fail.
And so I often tell people thatthe culture is self perpetuating
and you don't have a ton ofcontrol over it.
And it's a bit of an illusion,right?
In reality, at the one to onelevel, people don't really
expect that of you.
And that in some ways can berelieving for people to
(18:34):
understand and to hear.
And then I go back to myframework.
Right?
I tell people to emphasis B thedaylights out of it.
Go into the interview, beauthentic, be yourself, and
emphasis B any preparation thatyou need to do.
Right?
it's a risk.
It absolutely is a risk.
Anything that you do.
where you think it should beEmphasis A and you end up
(18:56):
Emphasis B, or Emphasis C ingit, it's a risk.
But I suggest that it's a riskthat frees you from having to
constantly be worrying aboutthis.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (19:07):
So, let's say a listener.
Here's our conversation.
they get the job
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (19:12):
Right.
Congratulations.
matthew-sorens (19:14):
congratulations.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (19:16):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (19:16):
we have your framework, the ABC,
but do you have any otherpractical strategies they can
employ once they start this newjob to avoid getting bogged down
by their perfectionism in a newrole?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (19:29):
Yeah, so I would suggest, and I talk
about this in F.
L.
A.
W.
D., there are a series ofchapters that go into different
strategies, and I think it'sgood for the perfectionistic
employee.
Although it's written for theperfectionistic leader to work
with a perfectionistic employee,I think you could reverse it and
very easily glean informationfrom it, as somebody who
identifies as a perfectionist.
(19:51):
So I talk about not gettingbogged down on the process.
the need for optimal steps, theneed for optimal strategies, and
how to work around that.
Not getting stuck in seekingreassurance and overchecking and
leaning on the people aroundyou.
Which can create a burden and asort of toxic environment around
you.
(20:11):
You know, if you ask somebody tocheck over your email 40 times,
they're going to get prettytired of you, right?
there are these social capitalcomponents that we need to think
about in a work environment.
Your anxiety might drive you towant to get help from people as
a crutch, but that has a costevery time you do that.
In the book, I also bring upthis hyper focus on rules versus
(20:33):
principles and values.
people with perfectionism tendto stumble over this.
They get stuck on rules, evenwhen those rules are driven by
principle, and by getting sostuck on the rules that they're
actually violating theunderlying principle.
Right?
If somebody is getting superrigid about a co worker who's
being late, they had a flattire, they couldn't make it in
(20:55):
on time, and the co worker comesin and says, Yup, you violated
the handbook on being here ontime.
Well, that rule is probablydesigned to stop people from
abusing And being too looseygoosey when they show up to
work.
But it wasn't designed forsomebody that has a bonafide
real good reason to be late towork.
And so when someone comes in anddismisses the big picture of the
(21:16):
principle, and gets stuckenforcing the rules this causes
tremendous problems in theworkplace.
And so perfectionists tend toget stuck on these rules at the
expense of the principle, and Itry to Help people identify that
and then give them somestrategies for zooming out,
asking themselves what is theprinciple of this, you know, as
(21:38):
a strategy.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (21:39):
Can you share impactful insights
from the book that you think canbenefit job seekers, leaders,
employers, employees alike?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (21:49):
I think the bottom line of the
book is around cognitiveflexibility and really values.
If you can think about those twomessages to take from the book.
I think this book could apply toalmost any facet of life.
You just can't write a book forevery facet of life because no
one will ever pick it up.
It's not specific enough.
But, in the workplace, it verymuch makes sense to be thinking
(22:10):
about cognitive rigidity andvalues.
And if you could focus on thosetwo things, and then generalize
them to other areas of yourlife, I think you'll be in a
healthier place.
Can you be flexible in the waythat you're thinking about
things?
Can you pivot?
Can you roll with the punch?
you change your tactic?
Stick with the strategy, but canyou change your tactic?
(22:31):
Or if the strategy needschanging, can you recognize that
and change your strategy?
And all of this is based on yourvalues.
You can value achievement, butif that's the only thing you
value, you're going to be prettymiserable and the people around
you are going to be prettymiserable.
Can you create and grow othervalues in your life?
(22:52):
You don't need to get rid of theachievement value, right?
You just need to grow othervalues.
You need to diversify yourvalues.
And if you could do that, thenthis achievement need becomes
relatively less critical.
Not less critical on an absolutelevel, but relatively speaking.
You start to value other thingsin your life.
You start to put energy towardthat.
(23:13):
And in that sense, you haveother things to live for.
You have an enriching set ofthings to be pursuing.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (23:21):
One of the reasons I was so excited
to bring Greg on is with thebook Flawed, which again,
doesn't just focus onperfectionism, but one of the
things I've found important inmy life, and I think will help
readers is the blind spots wehave, recognizing where we're
overly rigid or the opposite ofthat, the balance of all of
these things.
(23:41):
And your approach and everythingI've heard about the book so far
has been fantastic.
So I'm going to get a copy, Imight beg you for one after the
call, but where can listenerslearn more from you and get a
hold of the book?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (23:55):
Yeah, thank you for asking.
It's the best, probably theeasiest way to go is to go to
flawed book.com, which is aterrible URL, but my hope is
that you'll remember it.
Flawed book.com.
I guess it's in the spirit ofperfectionism, right?
Flawed book.com.
And you could go there, youcould get a link to various
places where the book is sold.
There's an e-version there's aprint version.
(24:18):
There's an audio book dependingon when you're listening.
Summer 2024.
And it's, I think it's a greatresource for the leader working
with perfectionists, and I thinkit's a great resource even for
the person who identifies assomebody with perfectionism.
I do gear it towards leaders,but I think it's very easy to
flip the script.
Think you would read it andreally start to understand the
(24:40):
areas that you've neverconsidered might be influenced
by perfectionism.
I've had people read the bookand say, Oh my God, I wish I had
this 20 years ago.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (24:47):
That's what I was thinking as well is
for those of you, whenever youhear someone talk about
something that is geared forleaders, but can be impactful,
do it now.
Don't wait, because this is away to, avoid the things that
held those leaders back as afuture leader.
This can help you, smooth thepath towards where you want to
(25:10):
go.
And I've talked about thisbefore on the show.
Recognizing your strengths andweaknesses outside of the job
interview, but recognizing thoseand then learning ways to make
small improvements.
Or even just recognizing them.
A lot of times it's the firststep because then you can start
moving forward.
introducing frameworks like the,A, B and C, things like that.
(25:32):
It looks like Seth Godin has arecommendation on that.
That's a pretty big deal.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (25:36):
Yeah, that was quite the email that I
got from him.
It was, in a lot of ways it justreally launched this book for me
because I'm relatively new tothis arena, and when Seth Godin
gives you his endorsement andseems to like your book, it's
very energizing, right?
For just a moment, you kind offeel perfect, even though it's
(25:57):
an illusion.
So I have tremendousappreciation for Seth Godin and
his thoughts.
There are other people like AmyEbbinson and Tom Curran and,,
Jenny Wallace, who wrote NeverEnough, like there are people
who really have appreciated thisbook.
I think it's because this is apart of the discourse now.
You can't get away from it.
I'm seeing it in the, New YorkTimes and all over the place.
I mean, perfectionism iseverywhere, right?
(26:20):
I have it coming out of my ears,and I don't think it's going
away.
I think it's getting worse.
And I think that some of thesepeople who have endorsed my book
have Seeing how I can offer someclinically relevant evidence
based approaches to helpingpeople tackle this.
it's not a cure all, but it'scertainly, let's bring awareness
and let's provide somesolutions.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:41):
Did you read the audio book version
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_10 (26:43):
of which one?
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (26:44):
of Flawed?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (26:45):
yes, I have.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:46):
Did you have a cold?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (26:47):
No, oh, did I read it myself?
No.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:50):
you narrate it?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_10 (26:51):
So it's a funny story.
I decided to try it and I readthe intro, which is three to
five pages.
I had my best bud edit some ofit.
He was a sound editor and ittook so long.
I said, nevermind, I'm not doingthis.
This is taking so much time andenergy.
I'm going to outsource this forall of the sound editors and the
people who do this for a living.
(27:12):
You have my utmost appreciation.
I found it extremely difficult.
So it's kudos to you.
I decided not to do it, althoughI sounded pretty good, but I
ended up going with aprofessional narrator who also
happens to share my name, Greg,so I like him a lot and get a
professional editor and I'm veryhappy so far with the result.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (27:31):
We will link to flawedbook.
com.
Is there any other way forlisteners to get in contact with
you or follow and learn morefrom you?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (27:40):
Yeah, great question.
Thank you so much.
Go to gregchasson.
com.
You can join my mailing list fortips and insights.
I provide that bi weekly.
I promise not to flood your box.
There will also be some sneakpeeks.
I'm thinking about writing someother books.
You can also come play with meon social media.
I love it.
Tag me.
Say hello.
Talk about my book.
(28:00):
Let's get the Discourse onPerfectionism even more
energized.
And I'd say, I think those areprobably the best ways to get a
hold of me.
I'm pretty open to emails, soshoot me an email.
I like to hear from people.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (28:12):
you being here, but have a feeling
that there are a number oflisteners that have seen, or
will see the title of thisepisode, the subject matter, and
say, Finally, because this isn'tsomething I've spent any time
on, nor have I been qualified todo so.
So, Thank you for digging inhere.
I think this is going to make animpact on me and I think it will
for listeners too, so I'dencourage them to go get a copy.
(28:34):
But in the meantime, can youleave us with some final words
of wisdom and encouragement aswe maybe do some self
realization, take what you'veshared here and try and better
ourselves and find that betterbalance that you talk about,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (28:48):
Yeah, thank you.
I think it's important to leaveon a positive note because
perfectionism, again, comes withall sorts of beautifully
powerful traits, right?
Conscientiousness, loyalty,honesty processing of details
there are very few peopleperfectionists.
This is not a witch hunt.
I would never dream of gettingrid of perfectionists in the
(29:09):
workplace.
These are some of your bestworkers.
It's about how to change yourenvironment, how to change your
leadership style to maximizethese positive qualities while
minimizing some of thedifficulties that come with
perfectionism.
It's not about.
Rooting them out or excludingthem.
It's really not about that atall.
(29:30):
I think you're doing yourself ahuge disservice if you're trying
to wean out or rule out any sortof perfectionist in your
workplace.
They're your strongestemployees.
And I think that that's amessage to remember.
If you're a perfectionist andyou're worrying about this,
don't forget, this is multilayered.
You come in with tremendousstrengths a lot of the time, and
(29:51):
I would leverage thosestrengths, don't forget.
That's what employers typicallyare looking for.
And if you're really strugglingto the point where you can't
even apply, you get stuck andyou're getting feedback from
your employer already that thisis not sustainable, go get some
professional help.
International OCD Foundation,IOCDF.
(30:11):
org, you know, we didn't talkabout this, but perfectionism
often goes along with bona fideOCD.
Obsessive compulsive disorder.
The people that know how totreat this tend to also be the
experts when it comes to OCD,such as myself.
Go to the International OCDFoundation, or go to aBCT.
com, Association for Behavioraland Cognitive Therapies, and go
(30:33):
use their tools for finding atherapist.
they have a database there.
Type in your zip code.
And I think the IOCDF even has alittle checkbox for
perfectionism.
So if you're looking for someonespecific, you can get the help
that you need and leverage thosestrengths and minimize those
limitations.
Many of us feel pressure to be
perfect during our jobinterviews and On to employment.
I Wonder why.
I know as a past executiverecruiter, director of town
acquisition, I've talked to alot of people.
I've never tried to find someonewho's perfect.
I just want people who have theright skills for the job.
(00:21):
But why do we feel thatpressure?
Why do we get so nervous for ajob interview or even once you
hit submit on that resume thatyou've tried to polish?
Well, Dr.
Gregory Chasson is here to help.
an esteemed psychologist, boardcertified cognitive behavioral
therapist, researcher, educator,and internationally invited
(00:43):
speaker.
Through his rich and diverseexperience, he has imparted
transformational insights andstrategies around the globe to
help communities, andindividuals like you address
health challenges, such asperfectionism by using practical
and feasible strategies.
His brand new book, Flawedoffers practical solutions about
(01:06):
in the workplace.
I love that book titled Flawed.
Dr.
Chaston,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (01:11):
Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (01:12):
to the job interview experience.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (01:15):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (01:17):
you talk about how perfectionism can
be a double edged sword in theworkplace.
Can you elaborate a little biton why some employers seem to
see it as an asset while it canactually create some problems?
greg-chasson_1_04-1 (01:30):
Absolutely, I do think it's a double edged
sword in that there are lots ofstrong qualities that you want
in a Perfectionistic employeethat you want to leverage.
There's no doubt about it.
There's a reason that this isoften used as a cavalier
response to the question, whatis your greatest weakness?
And the reason is because thereare positive features of
(01:54):
perfectionism.
People try to spin that responseso that it sounds like a
strength when they're beingasked about a weakness, a bit of
a clever,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (02:03):
that in an interview before.
No one's ever said that to me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (02:06):
Well, it's, I've heard it plenty of
times.
Yeah.
It's sort of a cliche, tiredresponse and you know, you're
almost expecting it out thegate.
And the truth is when you hearit as somebody that has some
training or background inperfectionism, it actually makes
you wince.
Like I wince when I hear thisbecause actually perfectionism
can be quite a challenge.
(02:27):
It can be quite paralyzing forpeople.
So be careful with thisparticular strategy if the
person knows a little bit aboutperfectionism, you could be
shooting yourself in the foot abit but it is a double edged
sword.
There are tremendously positivequalities that come with
somebody that hasperfectionistic tendencies.
They tend to be very loyal.
They tend to be very honest.
(02:48):
They're some of the hardestworking people you'll ever meet.
They have a tremendously goodattention to detail.
Oh, and conscientiousness.
My goodness, this is probablythe strongest feature.
And, you know, if you were totake those ingredients, most
people, most employers wouldsay, Give me that.
That sounds amazing.
The problem is that sometimesit's so intense, it becomes so
(03:08):
problematic, that it becomesparalyzing.
It stops people from movingforward.
They get stuck in things likethe process of doing tasks.
They get stuck inprocrastination, which is a
really common feature.
They become stuck on the rulesinstead of the principles, and
they have trouble seeing the bigpicture.
And I'm happy to elaborate onsome of these, but my book goes
(03:31):
through a lot of this, and Ithink the last chapter is
something that people miss orthe second to last chapter, the
last two chapters, is when itextends outward and becomes
moralistic, people can become alittle bit self righteous, and I
think that's what really createsa toxic culture in the work
environment.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (03:46):
well said and to help with the rest
of our conversation.
Is there a way to identify who'sactually a perfectionist versus
people who say, I'm aperfectionist because of a
picture is crooked, then itbothers me.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (04:02):
Mm,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (04:03):
and I've seen this with OCD as well.
People say, Oh, I'm OCD.
It's like, well, I think thatthere's actually probably a
deeper level to identifying thatthan maybe even liking your
bathroom sink to be clean.
Right?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (04:14):
right.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (04:15):
With perfectionism, how do we
identify when people use it askind of a vague weakness that
they have that's, as you'veshowed and said is, is actually
maybe a kind of a strength.
People who like things to begood, but they don't actually
struggle with it at that levelversus your understanding of
what a perfectionist actuallyis.
What's the difference there?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (04:36):
Superb question.
They're often confused.
Where do you draw the line?
I would say the two ingredientsthat I look for, cognitive
rigidity.
How rigid is the individual withtheir thinking?
Can they think outside the box?
Can they adapt?
Can they pivot?
That's it.
are they able to shift?
And if they can't, that'susually a bit of a red flag that
(04:58):
there's some problematicperfectionism going on.
I would say that's probably thenumber one ingredient of
perfectionism that separates itfrom something like high
expectations.
Really those are the two thingswe're talking about,
perfectionism versus highexpectations.
High expectations are not rigid,you accommodate it, you adjust
(05:19):
when needed.
If the environment tells youthat it's impossible, you make
the shift, but people withperfectionism, they have a
difficult time doing that.
They get sort of stuck.
It's like trying to turn theTitanic before it hits the
iceberg.
And the other ingredient is justthe excessive nature of the
expectations.
So is the sales targetunreasonable?
(05:40):
Is the product deadlineunreasonable?
You combine those twoingredients, you can see where
it can become prettyproblematic, right?
If somebody is really rigidabout their thinking and their
approach, and their expectationsare rigid, you put those two
things together and somebody isextremely unlikely to shift
(06:01):
these unreasonable expectations.
And so it's like essentiallytalking to a brick wall.
Somebody is in a reallydifficult time Pivoting and
adjusting, and it could get theminto trouble.
It sours the workplace aroundpeople as well.
So I look for those two things.
I look for cognitive rigidity,and I look for excessive
unreasonable expectations.
(06:23):
And when those two things aretogether, in particular, I think
that's a pretty big red flag.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (06:27):
as you're speaking, I'm getting
more ideas of how perfectionismcan impact a job search, and
it's broadened just from hearingyou speak.
I think about resumes, whichmaybe perfectionism is a good
quality there,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (06:40):
Yes.
matthew-sorensen_1_04- (06:41):
Letters.
I also wonder, do you seeoverlap between, Paralysis by
analysis,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (06:47):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12- (06:47):
Would you see a perfectionist maybe
not applying to jobs becausethey're not seeing perfect fit
for them?
Could you dig into how that canhurt job seekers instead of help
them?
greg-chasson_1_04-1 (06:58):
Absolutely.
In fact, in the book, I have anentire chapter on something
called process paralysis, whichis very similar to analysis by
paralysis or, you know, the ideathat people get stuck on the
process doing optimal steps, theoptimal order of steps, the
perfect strategy, getting stuckon even getting started.
Can be a paralyzing process andwhat you combine that with just
(07:22):
getting stuck analyzing and youget those two things going and
somebody might not even get offthe bench to play the game,
right?
And that's exactly the problemthat you see with job seekers,
right?
They'll be looking for theoptimal or perfect job and
they'll get stuck on that ontrying to perfect the process.
So you talk about a resume.
I actually think the resume is aterrible place to look for
(07:44):
perfectionists because we're allsort of wired or sort of
brainwashed to think that theresume needs to be perfect?
Any typo, any weird spacing,?
Microsoft Word will give you ahard time and you'll sit there
for hours trying to figure outhow the formatting is working?
Instead of applying for the job.
But I think the resume is aplace where people will do get
critiqued for imperfections.
(08:05):
And I, so I would suggest notlooking at the resume for
evidence of perfection.
I think in that case, everyonewould look like a perfectionist.
References tend to be difficultto talk to you about this
because You know, who's, who'sgonna, like, come out and say,
out the gate and say, Oh yeah,this person gets paralyzed by
their perfectionism.
In general, if there are cluesfrom a reference, it's probably
(08:26):
subtle.
You know, that they tend to befocused on the details.
Perhaps they might suggestsomething like they get emphatic
about the process or thatthey're very interested in
making sure that there's anefficiency to everything.
I think people get stuck onefficiency quite a lot.
You also brought up aninteresting concept that I talk
about in the book as well, whichis this feeling called not just
(08:46):
right feelings.
Also called not just rightexperiences or NJRF or NJREs.
You see it on the ground like inthe trenches with things like I
need to get this just rightbefore I could submit it I need
to get the margins just right.
I need to make this sentencefeel just right before I move on
I think this probably happens inthe job seeking Sector as well,
(09:07):
right if you're looking for theperfect job, you might get stuck
saying well, okay this hits 90percent but it's not that extra
10 percent doesn't really soundlike me or it doesn't feel like
me Just right.
And to me, that would be amistake.
you miss every shot you don'ttake says the famous Wayne
Gretzky.
I think this is a case where ifyou're fitting 90 percent and a
(09:28):
gut reaction is it doesn't feelright is what's stopping you.
I think you're making a mistake.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2024 (09:34):
I think we attribute that quote to
Michael Scott now.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (09:37):
Oh, do we?
Okay.
Yeah.
Michael Scott.
Sure.
Sure.
Yeah.
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (09:40):
Can you think of examples of
competing qualitiesperfectionism and something else
where maybe they do help createa balance or maybe the opposite?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (09:49):
I think what you're describing are
the features of a productivequality worker, pursuing
perfection isn't inherently bad.
It's really the rigidity and theexcessiveness of the
expectations that are theproblem.
And I think the problem withperfectionists is that they're
too extreme on one end.
So I have a framework that I usecalled the Emphasis Framework.
(10:12):
And I see it as a way ofexplaining and thinking about
task prioritization.
And I think it's a framework forunderstanding perfectionism in
general.
People with perfectionism tendto give up.
Everything, what I call EmphasisA, which is 110%, they give it
their all, they lean in and theyleave nothing behind, right?
(10:34):
And the problem is, is they dothis for everything, not just
the things that are important orimportant to them.
And so there are otherstrategies.
Emphasis B, on the other hand,is the get or done strategy,
right?
And I hear you a little bittalking about the get or done
strategy, just be decisive, getor done.
(10:54):
Move on, worry about theaccountability later, or even
just deal with it, right?
But there's also even anemphasis C.
Emphasis C is choosing not to doit at all.
And there's a time and place forall three of these.
Emphasis A really should beguided by your values.
So if you could take one messagehome today, it is values,
values, values.
(11:15):
What is important to you, whatis important to your
organization, What is importantto the other things in your
life, like your marriage, yourparenting, what's important to
you.
And of course, what's importantto your spouse, for example, is
also important to you, notbecause you care about what they
care about, but because you careabout your relationship with
your wife, or your spouse.
(11:36):
And so there's a time and placefor all three of these.
There's a time and place foremphasis A, like if you're
studying for the LSAT, you'retrying to go to law school or
you're putting your resumetogether, that could be a plan
A, or an emphasis A response.
The emphasis B approach,however, is usually the best
strategy for most things inlife.
There's no way to emphasis Aeverything.
(11:58):
It's impossible.
And then there's a time andplace for emphasis C all the
time.
I don't open mail that I know isjunk mail.
I just don't even do it.
I strategically decide it's notworth my energy.
It's not valuable to me.
Sorry for all the mass mailersout there, but I don't open your
mail.
And, I don't answer the customerservice satisfaction survey at
the end of the call.
(12:18):
it's not important to me.
And so you have strategicallydecided what to place your
emphasis on.
Perfectionism is all about overemphasizing a doing way too much
effort for everything notdiscriminating what needs less
effort and then it what happensis that you can't sustain that
(12:39):
and it forces you to theemphasis c so instead of
emphasis c being based on yourvalues and what's strategic it's
forced on you so theperfectionism has dictated your
priorities not you or yourvalues and so i really encourage
people to use your values as acompass for what that, what
needs those differentdelineations.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (13:01):
That's fascinating.
I've never thought of it framedthat way, but I can see how even
a perfectionist could trainthemselves to say will emphasis
be work here?
If so, I've learned to move thatdirection you have any stats on
what percent of maybe the US orworld population are truly?
(13:21):
perfectionists
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (13:23):
I don't have that data on me,
although there is research It'svery difficult to quantify,
because we all fall somewhere onthis spectrum.
Where do you draw the line?
And where you draw the line isthen going to determine whether
or not you have quote unquotePerfectionism.
So I don't see it socategorically like that, which
is probably why I don't have agood estimate for you.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12- (13:43):
Let's speak to that portion that are
perfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (13:46):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (13:47):
say that they are going to their job
interview and they're going tobe asked the strengths and
weaknesses question.
They actually areperfectionists.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (13:55):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (13:56):
Saying you're a perfectionist is not a
strategic approach, it's justoveruse, it's a cliche,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (14:01):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-2 (14:01):
are, my guess is, even if you truly
are, if you have a certificateon the wall that says you are a
certified perfectionist, it'sstill not the best response.
How would you coach ourperfectionist job seeker when
they're asked about theirweakness, and it is
perfectionism, how do younavigate that conversation?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (14:21):
Very carefully.
I think, that if someone on theother end knows exactly what
that word means and what itentails, you need to be very
careful about how you describeit.
I do think it's, again, overusedand tired, so I would maybe
encourage you to think ofanother way of describing
strategies or difficulties thatcome with perfectionism.
And you can highlight acomponent of perfectionism
(14:42):
without using that word and bybeing genuine and honest.
So I always encourage people tobe authentic in an interview,
but you also want to bestrategic about what you're
saying.
Like what authentic self youpresent you know, and I think if
you were to describe yourself assomeone who tends to struggle
with knowing when to call itquits, for example, right?
(15:04):
That you tend to have adifficult time knowing how to
balance work and life or thatyou sometimes get overzealous
and excited about something andhave a hard time Moving on to
the next thing, right?
There are ways of framing itthat I think sound a little less
problematic and a little lesscliched but I do think that it
(15:27):
would be wise to take some timeand think about how you want to
craft that answer.
The other thing you could do ispivot entirely and come up with
a totally different domain ofsomething that you struggle with
because you know, it might beworthwhile to do.
Come up with something that'snot in this umbrella and, and
work with that.
And again, if you're trulyperfectionistic, you might have
(15:47):
a hard time pivoting, right?
But if you have some time toprepare, it might be worth
giving it a whirl.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (15:52):
An example of this that I've seen
is.
You don't have to say you're aperfectionist, but you can say,
I've really struggled in mycareer with not accepting other
people's work because it doesn'talign with what I would expect
out of myself if I did it.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (16:09):
You know,
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (16:09):
I'm not even saying that's a correct
answer, I've seen that in peoplethat are perfectionists where
they want to take control ofother people's work because it
doesn't meet their standards ofhow.
They would perform it for theweaknesses question.
I think the best way to navigatethat is to start with a weakness
that isn't directly correlatedto the job and talk about you're
(16:32):
fixing it.
Because everyone has weaknessesif you are mature enough to
identify it, which is step oneand then proactive enough to
take steps and tell theinterviewer how you're fixing
it.
Nobody's perfect.
when you can show that you areidentified this, you're humble
enough to admit it, and you'reactually working to fix it.
People who fix their problems,those are the people I like.
(16:52):
Those are the people that,continue to grow.
Why do you think there's so muchpressure and nervousness around
job interviews, which areessentially a conversation, as I
said in the opening, andpressure to perform without any
mistakes.
Why do you think we got here, inthe job interview world?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (17:08):
It's an excellent question.
I think it's a series ofdifferent variables.
Not the least of which is theculture that we're in.
Sort of a toxic achievementculture.
This expectation that you are,you know, this sterling person
with no weaknesses.
I've yet to meet anybody likethat, but you tell me if you do.
They just don't exist in mymind.
(17:28):
But we tend to have this fantasythat they exist and that we need
to be one of them.
And this culture is pushed on usvery early.
And the perfectionism takes holdat that point, very early on.
And some research on this hasshown that perfectionism seems
to be growing.
over the generations.
So this doesn't seem to be goingin the right direction.
(17:49):
And I think it speaks to whatyou're saying, is that there's
this culture of gettingextremely anxious about these
interviews and coming across ina perfect way, which,
ironically, in a self fulfillingprophecy kind of way, makes you
more anxious and then you end upstumbling all over yourself
during the interview.
it's like the student who triesto be perfect on their essay and
never turns it in.
it's the same concept where thevery fact that you're trying so
(18:12):
hard is the actual reason thatyou're going to fail.
And so I often tell people thatthe culture is self perpetuating
and you don't have a ton ofcontrol over it.
And it's a bit of an illusion,right?
In reality, at the one to onelevel, people don't really
expect that of you.
And that in some ways can berelieving for people to
(18:34):
understand and to hear.
And then I go back to myframework.
Right?
I tell people to emphasis B thedaylights out of it.
Go into the interview, beauthentic, be yourself, and
emphasis B any preparation thatyou need to do.
Right?
it's a risk.
It absolutely is a risk.
Anything that you do.
where you think it should beEmphasis A and you end up
(18:56):
Emphasis B, or Emphasis C ingit, it's a risk.
But I suggest that it's a riskthat frees you from having to
constantly be worrying aboutthis.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (19:07):
So, let's say a listener.
Here's our conversation.
they get the job
greg-chasson_1_04-12-202 (19:12):
Right.
Congratulations.
matthew-sorens (19:14):
congratulations.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (19:16):
Yep.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (19:16):
we have your framework, the ABC,
but do you have any otherpractical strategies they can
employ once they start this newjob to avoid getting bogged down
by their perfectionism in a newrole?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (19:29):
Yeah, so I would suggest, and I talk
about this in F.
L.
A.
W.
D., there are a series ofchapters that go into different
strategies, and I think it'sgood for the perfectionistic
employee.
Although it's written for theperfectionistic leader to work
with a perfectionistic employee,I think you could reverse it and
very easily glean informationfrom it, as somebody who
identifies as a perfectionist.
(19:51):
So I talk about not gettingbogged down on the process.
the need for optimal steps, theneed for optimal strategies, and
how to work around that.
Not getting stuck in seekingreassurance and overchecking and
leaning on the people aroundyou.
Which can create a burden and asort of toxic environment around
you.
(20:11):
You know, if you ask somebody tocheck over your email 40 times,
they're going to get prettytired of you, right?
there are these social capitalcomponents that we need to think
about in a work environment.
Your anxiety might drive you towant to get help from people as
a crutch, but that has a costevery time you do that.
In the book, I also bring upthis hyper focus on rules versus
(20:33):
principles and values.
people with perfectionism tendto stumble over this.
They get stuck on rules, evenwhen those rules are driven by
principle, and by getting sostuck on the rules that they're
actually violating theunderlying principle.
Right?
If somebody is getting superrigid about a co worker who's
being late, they had a flattire, they couldn't make it in
(20:55):
on time, and the co worker comesin and says, Yup, you violated
the handbook on being here ontime.
Well, that rule is probablydesigned to stop people from
abusing And being too looseygoosey when they show up to
work.
But it wasn't designed forsomebody that has a bonafide
real good reason to be late towork.
And so when someone comes in anddismisses the big picture of the
(21:16):
principle, and gets stuckenforcing the rules this causes
tremendous problems in theworkplace.
And so perfectionists tend toget stuck on these rules at the
expense of the principle, and Itry to Help people identify that
and then give them somestrategies for zooming out,
asking themselves what is theprinciple of this, you know, as
(21:38):
a strategy.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (21:39):
Can you share impactful insights
from the book that you think canbenefit job seekers, leaders,
employers, employees alike?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_100 (21:49):
I think the bottom line of the
book is around cognitiveflexibility and really values.
If you can think about those twomessages to take from the book.
I think this book could apply toalmost any facet of life.
You just can't write a book forevery facet of life because no
one will ever pick it up.
It's not specific enough.
But, in the workplace, it verymuch makes sense to be thinking
(22:10):
about cognitive rigidity andvalues.
And if you could focus on thosetwo things, and then generalize
them to other areas of yourlife, I think you'll be in a
healthier place.
Can you be flexible in the waythat you're thinking about
things?
Can you pivot?
Can you roll with the punch?
you change your tactic?
Stick with the strategy, but canyou change your tactic?
(22:31):
Or if the strategy needschanging, can you recognize that
and change your strategy?
And all of this is based on yourvalues.
You can value achievement, butif that's the only thing you
value, you're going to be prettymiserable and the people around
you are going to be prettymiserable.
Can you create and grow othervalues in your life?
(22:52):
You don't need to get rid of theachievement value, right?
You just need to grow othervalues.
You need to diversify yourvalues.
And if you could do that, thenthis achievement need becomes
relatively less critical.
Not less critical on an absolutelevel, but relatively speaking.
You start to value other thingsin your life.
You start to put energy towardthat.
(23:13):
And in that sense, you haveother things to live for.
You have an enriching set ofthings to be pursuing.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (23:21):
One of the reasons I was so excited
to bring Greg on is with thebook Flawed, which again,
doesn't just focus onperfectionism, but one of the
things I've found important inmy life, and I think will help
readers is the blind spots wehave, recognizing where we're
overly rigid or the opposite ofthat, the balance of all of
these things.
(23:41):
And your approach and everythingI've heard about the book so far
has been fantastic.
So I'm going to get a copy, Imight beg you for one after the
call, but where can listenerslearn more from you and get a
hold of the book?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (23:55):
Yeah, thank you for asking.
It's the best, probably theeasiest way to go is to go to
flawed book.com, which is aterrible URL, but my hope is
that you'll remember it.
Flawed book.com.
I guess it's in the spirit ofperfectionism, right?
Flawed book.com.
And you could go there, youcould get a link to various
places where the book is sold.
There's an e-version there's aprint version.
(24:18):
There's an audio book dependingon when you're listening.
Summer 2024.
And it's, I think it's a greatresource for the leader working
with perfectionists, and I thinkit's a great resource even for
the person who identifies assomebody with perfectionism.
I do gear it towards leaders,but I think it's very easy to
flip the script.
Think you would read it andreally start to understand the
(24:40):
areas that you've neverconsidered might be influenced
by perfectionism.
I've had people read the bookand say, Oh my God, I wish I had
this 20 years ago.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12 (24:47):
That's what I was thinking as well is
for those of you, whenever youhear someone talk about
something that is geared forleaders, but can be impactful,
do it now.
Don't wait, because this is away to, avoid the things that
held those leaders back as afuture leader.
This can help you, smooth thepath towards where you want to
(25:10):
go.
And I've talked about thisbefore on the show.
Recognizing your strengths andweaknesses outside of the job
interview, but recognizing thoseand then learning ways to make
small improvements.
Or even just recognizing them.
A lot of times it's the firststep because then you can start
moving forward.
introducing frameworks like the,A, B and C, things like that.
(25:32):
It looks like Seth Godin has arecommendation on that.
That's a pretty big deal.
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (25:36):
Yeah, that was quite the email that I
got from him.
It was, in a lot of ways it justreally launched this book for me
because I'm relatively new tothis arena, and when Seth Godin
gives you his endorsement andseems to like your book, it's
very energizing, right?
For just a moment, you kind offeel perfect, even though it's
(25:57):
an illusion.
So I have tremendousappreciation for Seth Godin and
his thoughts.
There are other people like AmyEbbinson and Tom Curran and,,
Jenny Wallace, who wrote NeverEnough, like there are people
who really have appreciated thisbook.
I think it's because this is apart of the discourse now.
You can't get away from it.
I'm seeing it in the, New YorkTimes and all over the place.
I mean, perfectionism iseverywhere, right?
(26:20):
I have it coming out of my ears,and I don't think it's going
away.
I think it's getting worse.
And I think that some of thesepeople who have endorsed my book
have Seeing how I can offer someclinically relevant evidence
based approaches to helpingpeople tackle this.
it's not a cure all, but it'scertainly, let's bring awareness
and let's provide somesolutions.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:41):
Did you read the audio book version
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_10 (26:43):
of which one?
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (26:44):
of Flawed?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_ (26:45):
yes, I have.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:46):
Did you have a cold?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_1 (26:47):
No, oh, did I read it myself?
No.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (26:50):
you narrate it?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024_10 (26:51):
So it's a funny story.
I decided to try it and I readthe intro, which is three to
five pages.
I had my best bud edit some ofit.
He was a sound editor and ittook so long.
I said, nevermind, I'm not doingthis.
This is taking so much time andenergy.
I'm going to outsource this forall of the sound editors and the
people who do this for a living.
(27:12):
You have my utmost appreciation.
I found it extremely difficult.
So it's kudos to you.
I decided not to do it, althoughI sounded pretty good, but I
ended up going with aprofessional narrator who also
happens to share my name, Greg,so I like him a lot and get a
professional editor and I'm veryhappy so far with the result.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-202 (27:31):
We will link to flawedbook.
com.
Is there any other way forlisteners to get in contact with
you or follow and learn morefrom you?
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (27:40):
Yeah, great question.
Thank you so much.
Go to gregchasson.
com.
You can join my mailing list fortips and insights.
I provide that bi weekly.
I promise not to flood your box.
There will also be some sneakpeeks.
I'm thinking about writing someother books.
You can also come play with meon social media.
I love it.
Tag me.
Say hello.
Talk about my book.
(28:00):
Let's get the Discourse onPerfectionism even more
energized.
And I'd say, I think those areprobably the best ways to get a
hold of me.
I'm pretty open to emails, soshoot me an email.
I like to hear from people.
matthew-sorensen_1_04-12-20 (28:12):
you being here, but have a feeling
that there are a number oflisteners that have seen, or
will see the title of thisepisode, the subject matter, and
say, Finally, because this isn'tsomething I've spent any time
on, nor have I been qualified todo so.
So, Thank you for digging inhere.
I think this is going to make animpact on me and I think it will
for listeners too, so I'dencourage them to go get a copy.
(28:34):
But in the meantime, can youleave us with some final words
of wisdom and encouragement aswe maybe do some self
realization, take what you'veshared here and try and better
ourselves and find that betterbalance that you talk about,
greg-chasson_1_04-12-2024 (28:48):
Yeah, thank you.
I think it's important to leaveon a positive note because
perfectionism, again, comes withall sorts of beautifully
powerful traits, right?
Conscientiousness, loyalty,honesty processing of details
there are very few peopleperfectionists.
This is not a witch hunt.
I would never dream of gettingrid of perfectionists in the
(29:09):
workplace.
These are some of your bestworkers.
It's about how to change yourenvironment, how to change your
leadership style to maximizethese positive qualities while
minimizing some of thedifficulties that come with
perfectionism.
It's not about.
Rooting them out or excludingthem.
It's really not about that atall.
(29:30):
I think you're doing yourself ahuge disservice if you're trying
to wean out or rule out any sortof perfectionist in your
workplace.
They're your strongestemployees.
And I think that that's amessage to remember.
If you're a perfectionist andyou're worrying about this,
don't forget, this is multilayered.
You come in with tremendousstrengths a lot of the time, and
(29:51):
I would leverage thosestrengths, don't forget.
That's what employers typicallyare looking for.
And if you're really strugglingto the point where you can't
even apply, you get stuck andyou're getting feedback from
your employer already that thisis not sustainable, go get some
professional help.
International OCD Foundation,IOCDF.
(30:11):
org, you know, we didn't talkabout this, but perfectionism
often goes along with bona fideOCD.
Obsessive compulsive disorder.
The people that know how totreat this tend to also be the
experts when it comes to OCD,such as myself.
Go to the International OCDFoundation, or go to aBCT.
com, Association for Behavioraland Cognitive Therapies, and go
(30:33):
use their tools for finding atherapist.
they have a database there.
Type in your zip code.
And I think the IOCDF even has alittle checkbox for
perfectionism.
So if you're looking for someonespecific, you can get the help
that you need and leverage thosestrengths and minimize those
limitations.
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