- Meet the Experts: Dr. Randy Brazie (psychiatrist and medical director) and Dr. Geoffrey VanderPal (educator, financial advisor) discuss how medicine, neuroscience, and business intersect to help job seekers.
- Science of Stress: Understand how the nervous system reacts under pressure and why recognizing fight-or-flight (or freeze) responses is crucial for interview success.
- Practical Anxiety Techniques: Learn subtle “orienting” methods, mindful breathing, and ways to channel nervous energy (e.g., a brief walk or grounding in the moment).
- Financial Stability & Job Hunting: Discover budgeting essentials, managing debt, and why it’s better to “get rich slow” through diversified, steady investing.
- Staying Steady & Confident: Hear actionable tips for prepping before interviews, creating a sense of safety in the interview room, and staying focused on your mission and purpose.
- About “The Steadfast Leader”: Their co-authored book fuses neuroscience with leadership strategies, offering insights on decision-making under stress.
Links & Resources
- The Steadfast Leader (book): Available at major booksellers (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc.).
- Neuro Consulting Group: neuroconsultinggroup.com – online training and resources.
- Connect with Dr. Brazie & Dr. VanderPal: Visit steadfastleader.com for more info and direct links.
https://moveupcareers.com/strategycall
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-job-interview-experience/id1538223546
https://moveupcareers.com/survey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_11 (00:00):
Welcome to the job interview experience.
I'm no psychologist, but I knowthis.
There's a whole lot going onwith job seekers, the stress of
unemployment, the stress beforejob interviews, the unknown
future.
Which I know many people thatare listening are in this
(00:20):
position.
Whether you don't know when thenext job will come, or you don't
know what your career will looklike and you're feeling some
stress, maybe you aren't whereyou wanna be.
Nerves, excitement, terror.
Like I said, there's a lot goingon.
My goal with the job interviewexperience is to help you
prepare, give you the tools tohelp build your confidence.
And when you're prepared, yournerves typically aren't as bad.
(00:42):
You perform better and getfurther.
I think it's important to digdeeper into the science of Job
interviews, learn how to staycalm, manage anxiety.
Be more steady, make betterdecisions and thrive in our
career.
So today we have two remarkableguests who blend the fields of
(01:02):
medicine, neuroscience, andbusiness to provide unique
perspectives today on jobinterviews and career
development.
Dr.
Randy Braze is a board certifiedpsychiatrist, currently serving
as a medical director for BlueCross Blue Shield of Arizona and
running a part-time privatepractice.
Dr.
Braze is also an active teacherin health related fields in a
(01:24):
published co-author in severalpeer reviewed business journals.
With experience in trauma,depression, and stress
treatments, Dr.
Brazy brings a wealth ofknowledge on how to stay
regulated.
And maintain a positive frame ofmind during things like the job
search process, or even, ofcourse, outside of that.
(01:45):
Joining us as well is Dr.
Jeffrey VanderPol, an educatorand financial advisor with a
robust background in finance,leadership, and business, In
fact, Dr.
VanderPol teaches in the Masterof Science in Finance Program at
Purdue University Global and isthe author of Invincible
Investing.
(02:05):
His expertise in market trendsand job opportunities,
especially in the evolvinglandscape of in-office remote
and hybrid work environments.
Make him a valuable resource forcareer seekers.
Together they co-authored TheSteadfast Leader, a book that
integrates the latest scientificunderstanding of the human
(02:26):
nervous system to help leadersstay focused and make better
decisions.
Today we're gonna explore all ofthis.
I think I've talked way morethan I should, but we have great
guests today and I want to dojustice to their backgrounds.
Welcome guys.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (02:41):
Thank you, Matthew.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (02:43):
Can you share a little bit about
your background and what led upto today and your focus on the
intersection of neuroscience,psychiatry, and business?
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (02:52):
Randy and I have been friends for
years and.
About three years ago, we werehaving dinner one night and we
were just chatting about some ofthe work that we're doing in our
respective fields.
And I've always had a verystrong interest in psychology.
And because of Randy'sbackground, I always pick his
brain regarding psychologymatters.
we were just having aninteresting conversation.
I was asking about some of thework he was doing with Somatic
Experience and Trauma and PTSDand to understand that world a
(03:15):
little better.
And as he was talking about someof the work that he was doing he
started.
Talking about polyvagal theoryand Neuroception interoception,
these terms that I had nofamiliarity with initially.
And as he was explaining allthis to me, I was thinking about
the linkage to leadership andleadership models, and we went
down this path of having aconversation about how there's
(03:37):
really a gap in leadership andbusiness decision making and
using some of these.
Areas of psychology that couldbe very influential in business.
And so we started basicallywriting down some ideas on a
napkin in the restaurant, so tospeak, and thought, Hey, let's
write a book.
And we joked about a little bit,but shortly thereafter we
(03:58):
actually started working onwriting the book.
And it took some time, but weco-authored The Steadfast
Leader, which was published byMcGraw Hill late last year.
But we also co-authored I thinknow we're at five peer reviewed
journal articles in variousbusiness journals.
And we're working on some othermaterials.
And we have a second book thatwe're working on as well that's
being shopped to differentpublishers.
(04:18):
So this has really turned intosomething that from the initial
catalyst stage to somethingthat's really have grown quite a
bit.
And it's been an interestingjourney so far.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_11080 (04:27):
What can job seekers that are feeling
that stress, anxiety and nerves,what can they do?
What are some techniques theycan use?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (04:35):
Yeah, Matthew, this is a great
question.
we have all these theories andideas, but how do I implement
this?
One of the things that we'reclear about is that we don't
expect people to becometherapists or to have to go back
to school and learn a bunch ofneuroscience.
So we really strive to providevery actionable, easy to digest
information and practical tips.
(04:57):
So the first step is that if youwant to know how to wrangle with
these anxieties you have to knowthyself.
You have to know how your ownnervous system, how you as a
person tend to react to stress.
And we talk about this in thebook is basically our nervous
system is constantly scanningthe environment for signs of
(05:17):
danger or safety.
And this is a very automaticinstinctual process.
The nervous system makes thedecision whether we're safe or
not on its own.
Without our thinking brain, it'sautomatic.
And what happens then is basedon its determination the nervous
system will then put you in astate that sort of matches with
(05:39):
where it thinks it's at.
So this could be if everything'sfine, everything's safe we might
be in what we call the socialengagement state.
Which is where everything'scool.
We can connect and enjoy hangingout with each other as people.
Think about an interview wherethings are going really well and
you like the interviewer andyou're really flowing and
laughing and enjoying.
(05:59):
That's somebody who is theirnervous system has decided.
Yep, we're cool.
If, however, the nervous systemthinks we're in a bit of danger
here, there's some potentialthreat.
We notice then that oursympathetic nervous system,
which of course people know isthe fight or flight system
starts to activate.
And when that does, this iswhere people really need to
(06:20):
know.
What are my signs when I amactivated?
Do I get hot and sweaty?
Does my chest tighten?
Does my heart start to pound?
Do I get shaky?
Then if the nervous systemthinks that not only are we in
danger, but we're not gonna getout of it, we actually might
what we call immobilize.
This is where a person candissociate a bit, and so they
(06:41):
look like they're talking andthinking and responding, but the
brain literally is disconnected.
The instinctive brain from thethinking brain.
You talk about people whodoesn't seem like it's getting
in or they're not reallyretaining what's being talked
about For any of your listeners,think about the times you've
gone through an interview andwalked out and thought what
happened?
I don't remember.
That's what dissociation lookslike.
(07:03):
So knowing myself is whathappens to me when I'm in one of
these three states, because thenyou can start to more quickly
identify, ah, I'm going intofight or flight.
The second stage then is how doyou actually implement that?
What do you do to then shiftyourself into a state that's
more useful?
And that's something that we cantalk about a little further.
(07:24):
And these are the skills that wetalk about in the book, but also
teach in our trainings.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (07:28):
Would it be accurate to guess that
people typically don't performwell in that state?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (07:34):
It could be either, and I'm sure
Jeffrey has many examples wherehe's seen in the business world
of somebody may look likethey're on fire and performing
well, but they don't recall whatthe heck happened.
Or somebody that might bestumbling or fumbling or just
withdrawing.
This is the person that mighteven just say.
flight, which is the higherlevel, the fight or flight.
Flight could be that they justbail out.
(07:55):
They just run away.
So yes, you're right.
They can look like they're veryhigh functioning.
But there's a scientific reasonbehind that, and it's basically
a section of the brain thatconnects your thinking brain
with your non-thinking brain.
And that tends to kinda shutdown when we're too freaked out.
So you have the two regions thatare working independently.
They're not coordinating witheach other, so this is why you
(08:16):
can get a different presentationdepending on the situation.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110 (08:20):
What's interesting about job interviews
is the physical situation youare in, if your body is
triggering fight or flight isyou're usually in a room with a
closed door and it's eitherone-on-one or.
Three to five people steering atyou from the other side of the
room, whether it would beclaustrophobia or our gut
instinct saying, Hey you'retrapped in somewhere with a
(08:42):
bunch of people who aren'tnecessarily on your side.
You wanna close the door so it'snot noisy and there's no
distractions.
I think it's a friendly setup,but.
with our gut instinct, right?
With that kind of reptilianbrain fight or flight, none of
these things work out in thefavor of the job seeker.
For the interviewer, it's justthe office, right?
It's just a boring conferenceroom.
(09:02):
For in-person interviews, isthere anything.
A job seeker could do to helpwarm up that situation for
themselves so that when they sitdown, they don't feel like they
are, physically in a bad place.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (09:17):
Yeah, and I know we can talk a bit
about, Jeffrey has a lot ofexpertise around.
Recommendations around how toconduct interviews and also
advising organizations on howthey can try to reduce these
cues of danger is what we callwhat you just described,
Matthew.
But very quickly.
There are a lot of differentways to regulate oneself and
they don't necessarily have tobe super fancy.
(09:38):
They also can be things that arevery subtle so that you can do
these things without reallyanybody noticing.
So what do I mean by this?
For example, one concept that welearned from my training in
somatic experiencing is that.
Think about that phrase.
He was like a deer in theheadlights, right?
So what do we do when we'refreaked out?
(09:59):
We freeze.
We try to fix our gaze on whatthe potential threat is and we
don't notice what else is goingon around us.
So we can actually trick ourbrains into thinking we're not
in danger by doing the opposite.
This is what we call orienting.
So we'll invite people to simplylook around.
If you are in that room,actually take the time to look
(10:20):
around and check out yourenvironment.
What do you see?
Notice the things, even namethose things inside, mentally
into your head.
Oh, there's a chair, there's adesk, there's a coffee cup,
there's another chair.
Don't judge things'cause you, ifyou get in the judgment, that
just leads you down the wronggarden path.
We invite people to practicethis when they're not in a high
stress situation.
(10:41):
Once it clicks with you, you getit.
You'll realize that your brainwill automatically say, oh,
we're not in any danger'causewe're looking around.
Cool.
We can stand down.
We're okay.
We also use a lot of othermindful techniques.
You mentioned something aboutbreathing.
There's certain types ofbreathing techniques that people
can use that will help them.
We do not recommend just doingrandom deep breathing because if
(11:02):
you have any kind of history ofanxiety or scary experiences,
you might actually triggeryourself into more of a state of
panic.
For example, Navy Seals do thebox breathing right.
Breathe in for four, hold forfour, breathe out for four, and
then wait for four before thenext breath.
Andrew Weil talks about 4, 7, 8breathing, which comes from
(11:23):
ancient India.
Where you breathe in for four,hold for a count of seven, and
then breathe out slowly for acount of eight.
So there are different thingsthat people can play with.
To try to see what regulatestheir system.
The last example I'll mention isyou can just do mindful sitting.
So you're there in the chairdoing the interview.
Try to take the elevator out ofyour brain and notice in your
(11:46):
body where you feel contacteither with the chair or your
feet on the floor, and try tofocus on that sensation.
Really lean into it.
Feel that contact.
That's a very sort ofinstinctive way to tell your
brain we're okay.
Safe and supported much like amother would hold the infant and
support the infant that way tohelp soothe them to calm.
(12:09):
I don't know if you have anyother thoughts, Jeffrey, around
that.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (12:11):
Yeah.
And I think also, those are all,excellent suggestions that
individuals can put into effectfor calming themselves in those
situations.
Another thing they can do isbefore the interview, they make
sure they're well prepared forthe interview.
Learning about the company,learning about the person that
you're interviewing with, ifthey can learn enough where they
can have a casual conversationcoming in to break the ice.
(12:33):
'cause if the interviewer is notsomeone who's overly sociable,
or really engaging couldactually engage the interviewer
to a degree and try to breakthat ice and create a more
pleasant and calming environmentthat way.
Now, of course, as theinterviewee is being
interviewed, the stress levelscan be high and that can
sometimes be difficult withpractice, though, that can be
(12:55):
done.
Some of these ideas do take somepractice, but once mastered it
can make a profound difference.
How people go into an interviewprocess how they perceive the
interview process and howthey're perceived as well.
So learning some of these socialengagement cues and tips is
really important as they gothrough that process.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (13:14):
It is really hard not to be overly
excitable For extreme introvertsthat are listening I think they
actually have a leg up herebecause the volume's not turned
up quite as high for extrovertsthat are getting all of this
extreme energy from the room.
I wanna repeat, I'm not apsychologist, I've just
witnessed a lot of this.
So please correct me where I'mwrong, but I'll see people, they
(13:36):
come in, start talking wayfaster, a little bit jerkier,
body movements, maybe a littlemore interrupting.
When I coach people on this, Ihelp them think of just boring.
You're walking in the room andone of your parents is there.
It's Hey mom.
Not that's what you wanna do,but if you're gonna be a 10,
outta 10, you come in and, youthrow the hand out, you shake
and you're, you start asking quelike, oh, that's great art on
(13:58):
the wall.
And this is a great table.
that's what people tend to do.
If you can approach it.
Hey guys, good to see everybody.
And integrate that into at leastthe first moments to set a stage
of that calm and quiet like yousaid, Dr.
VanderPol.
That seems to help when you justtry and normalize things a
little bit.
And then the other side, whenyou talked about naming.
(14:21):
There's a cup, there's a plate.
In my mind, what that does isyou're almost reminding
yourself, this is all verynormal,?
There's no cleaver on the table,my body, for some reason, thinks
that this a should be highstress situation.
There should be danger.
This is an office, This is aconference room.
There's a cup, there's a table,there's some kind of boring
artwork, Looks like it belongsin a hotel lobby.
(14:43):
Everything's okay.
I think that's gonna be reallyhelpful for listeners.
When I have a stressful phonecall or when I've had job
interviews on the phone as theinterviewee, I tend to pace and
I'm someone who could wear outthe carpet in the house just
doing circles, whether it's aphone call with a friend,
where're, trying to maybe figuresomething out, something's
broken.
I'm trying to walk someonethrough how to fix something or
(15:04):
like I said, maybe I'm beinginterviewed or something like
that.
What do we do with that energy,whether it's a phone interview,
video interview, in-personinterview?
Where can all of that go?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-2 (15:15):
That gets to really the concept of
that you have this survivalenergy.
So Steven Porges, who foundedthe Polyvagal theory, which is
the backbone of a lot of ourapproaches, he describes that as
the nervous system is alldressed up with no to go.
And so you basically, you havesurvival energy, so you have to
do something with it, right?
This is exactly what you'reasking.
(15:36):
It might be that if you're on aphone interview that you need to
pace, that's actually perfectlyfine, provided that you're not
getting yourself so ramped upand overstimulated that then you
start to lose the plot.
Basically lose the train of yourthought or what you're trying to
achieve.
It could be these mindfulapproaches.
So some people do mindfulwalking.
So if you're pacing, drop yourawareness, take that elevator
(15:59):
out of your head and actuallypay attention to your feet.
What does it feel like to pacein your feet?
What does your body feel like asit does that?
If you're on a video type thing,when you're trying to sit still
maybe you need to focus on whereyou make connection.
Like I said, with the chair,with the floor.
Maybe put your hands on the deskand feel that connection.
(16:21):
Do these orienting skills.
Ultimately, when you have thissurvival energy, when you're in
the moment, it's gonna be hardfor you to, do something too
obvious run and pace and or doanything.
'cause then they're gonna thinkyou're a bit odd or that you're
a bit too anxious.
But maybe, before, Jeffreyreally touched upon an important
point is that preparing yourselfbefore help boost your
(16:42):
confidence.
So maybe before you need to dosomething like, throw down a few
pushups or jog in place or.
Keep working on settling yoursystem.
You have to find what works foryou in the moment and it's gonna
be different for each person.
Yeah, so those would be some ofmy thoughts around
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19- (17:00):
And I would just add that, there's
different things for differentpeople.
So like for example, I had totake an exam recently.
I was doing another master'sdegree.
And the test was a littlestressful, so I took a walk
around the block before I satdown for the exam.
For me, that actually calmed mynerves and took some of that
nervous energy away.
You could even do that for a jobinterview.
(17:22):
If it's the right environment,maybe walk around.
The lobby for a little bit, oryou walk around the block if
that's possible, or walk aroundthe building, if it's
appropriate.
if you have a lot of nervousenergy, you can work a little
bit of that off.
Now, you shouldn't be joggingaround getting all sweaty,
obviously, before the interviewbut certainly you can let some
of that energy off if you have alot of nervous energy.
For some people it might belistening to certain types of
(17:43):
music if there's certain musicthat calms you down.
Then maybe listening to themusic on the way to the
interview.
Or if you have headphones, maybebefore you go into the interview
and listen to the music for alittle bit, that might put you
into a calmer state as well.
So there's different techniques,like Randy was talking about all
different types of techniques,but you have to find what works
for you those techniques can bevery useful for calming down
(18:06):
nervous system.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (18:08):
Do you have any advice for people,
to get to a better place or tohelp set themself up for success
so that their finances, don'toverwhelm the process of getting
a job.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (18:18):
Yeah, there's a couple things and some
of this might seem like commonsense, but unfortunately human
nature, always follow this path.
Number one budgeting is reallyimportant.
And that's one of the firstthings we talk about in
financial planning is how do youproperly budget?
Doesn't everyone budget?
No, actually a lot of peopledon't really budget.
If you sit down with mostpeople, for 20 years I was
certified financial planner andmet with thousands of clients,
(18:41):
and I would say the vastmajority.
Did not have a real good idea oftheir actual budget.
The first thing we did wasactually sat down, looked at
their income, what they paid intaxes, all their bills, rent,
mortgage, everything, and brokeit down, health insurance
expense, et cetera.
And when you start to do thatand break it down, you start
understanding, where's the moneycoming from and where is it
(19:02):
going?
You can better allocate yourresources and figure out how to
better not only invest yourmoney, but also.
Where can you get someefficiencies and save more?
And that's really, the firststep.
The second thing I think is veryimportant is not to over and
debt ourselves.
And there's nothing wrong withhaving a little bit of debt.
We take out a mortgage to get ahome.
(19:22):
Most people can't afford to paycash for a home, understandably.
It's an expensive asset.
Same for cars.
Cars are very expensive.
Most people take out a loan.
Understandable.
It's okay to take a loan out forthe car'cause it gets you to
work and helps you make money,right?
It's a resource that allows youto earn income.
The home is an asset thathopefully will appreciate in
value over time and it's a placeto live for you and your family.
(19:44):
There's reasons for taking outdebt for those purposes, but
just to spend on things that youdon't need on credit cards and
pay excessive interest rates.
Is really not a wise way ofmanaging your money, and
unfortunately a lot of peopleare spending money on things who
are not managing their budgetswell and they have excessive
credit card debt.
Now, there are emergencies andthings that happen in life,
(20:05):
understandably, where you know,you might have to use a credit
card to pay a medical bill.
I certainly understand that.
But a lot of cases people arelocating their resources and
taking on a lot of debt whenthey don't need to.
So I think those are the twobiggest elements to be aware of.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (20:23):
And it sounds like some of that one
could be long term and one couldbe short term.
So long term would be trying tofill up that rainy day fund
emergency savings account, andthe other would be.
Maybe you see layoffs coming oryou've recently been laid off,
not the best time maybe to go onsuch a nice vacation.
Or maybe it's better to holdonto the car, right?
If the car's running maybe notpurchase a new car just yet.
(20:46):
I've seen people who have lostjobs and they've saved so well
that it's I think I'm gonna takea couple weeks.
Just relax and then I'm gonnaget on the job search.
And not everyone has theprivilege to be in that spot.
And that's something that youcan't just snap your fingers and
be there, being able to liveyour life in that type of way
(21:06):
and budget and plan.
I've seen this in people thatthe urgency, the stress of the
job search, it removes thosefinancial factors.
At least.
You might not know when you'llget the next job.
You might not know who wants youor where the demand is for your
skills, but at least you're notcounting down maybe days or
(21:27):
weeks until you have to have ajob and.
My wish would be that, jobseekers could be unburdened of
that.
That's just the reality for manypeople.
So that short and long termtoday is the time to start
thinking about that.
Especially as listeners get jobsand get that income back to
start saving and have that,people call it a cushion, right?
(21:47):
Or safety net, where no matterwhat happens, the employment
does not have total control overyour life and lifestyle.
whether it be a couple days or acouple weeks to breathe a little
bit in between jobs, takes acouple mental health weeks,
whatever that might be.
That seems to be a veryempowering situation for people
(22:07):
to be in if they can getthemselves to that spot.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19-2 (22:09):
if you look at human nature in
regards to making more money,what's the first thing people
do?
They buy a bigger house, theybuy fancier cars, right?
They buy more things for thehome, they buy more expensive
clothes.
List goes on.
And you hear about people thatare claiming they're making half
million a year, million a year,and they're claiming I don't
have much money left over.
At the end of the year, ofcourse, people making 50,000,
(22:30):
they go, what are you talkingabout?
That's crazy.
But the reality is they justkeep spending more.
So you really should be savingmore instead of spending more.
But unfortunately most peopledon't do that.
So they wanna upgrade theirlifestyle and I understand
people wanna, have a betterlife, but at the same time, you
have to be very rational andreasonable about it.
So if you are making moreincome, you really should be
(22:51):
focusing on putting more of thataway in savings, retirement, and
not just saying, oh, I can gobuy some jet skis now.
Oh, I can get a bigger house, orI can buy a third car.
They don't really need, but it'dbe nice to have, so at some
point you have to say, okay, Ineed to pull the reins back a
little bit and think about myfuture and go, I need to save
money.
And this is something I spend alot of time, especially with
(23:11):
younger clients over the years,trying to get them to understand
that the time value of money,the compounding of money over
time is so critically important.
You start in your twentiessaving even a couple thousand
dollars a year.
That grows into substantialamounts of money by the time you
hit retirement.
But most people didn't eventhink about really saving money
(23:31):
until about their late fortiesgetting into their fifties.
And by that point it's much moredifficult'cause you have to save
a lot more'cause you have ashorter period of time.
'cause the compounding effectisn't as strong.
It's almost like an inverted skislope basically going up the ski
slope that when you look atcompounding exponentially, the
further you go up, the more themoney actually grows.
(23:52):
It's really amazing.
And if people better understoodthat very simple concept, they'd
be able to save a lot moremoney.
I think be a bit moredisciplined.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_11080 (24:02):
What has the reaction been to the
steadfast leader?
Do you have any stories orfeedback from readers?
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (24:11):
Yeah, we've had some people close to
us actually read the book andcome back to us directly and
say, look, this book is verydifferent from other leadership
books.
And they really enjoyed readingit, and they learned a lot from
it.
They've read other leadershipbooks, but found ours to be
quite different than what's onthe market.
It's one of the reasons whyMcGraw-Hill picked up the book,
as first time authors.
That was a pretty big deal.
(24:32):
And they saw something in thebook that was very different
than other leadership books onthe market.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (24:37):
As a matter of fact, I just before
our recording this podcast justgot off a meeting with a woman
who's an executive coach inLondon who had found us on
LinkedIn, she's also trained in.
Understanding Polyvagal theory.
She trained under Deb Dana, thefamous therapist translated
theory from science to actuallanguage the rest of us could
(24:58):
understand.
And she was just very fascinatedwith the book.
We're getting a lot of peopleacknowledging that this is
different rather than just usingthe same old models and
rebranding them.
We're trying to do somethingthat really brings in a much
more holistic picture ofunderstanding how we as human
beings work.
Listening to Jeffrey talkingabout, some of those recent
(25:20):
comments reminded me of how as apsychiatrist, human beings
react.
Like people going into financialstress, how they do the doom
spending, right?
They just say fine, forget it.
I'm just gonna blow all the lastlittle bits of money, or.
And it gets into some of thesebiases that you talked about
where we make these largejudgements or decisions on an
impulsive level basically onfaulty logic once we're
(25:44):
triggered once our instinctivedrives or our survival
mechanisms are triggered.
It's very interesting how wehumans react to situations.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19-20 (25:51):
I would just add too, the
gambler's fallacy.
Speaking of biases, one of thebiggest mistakes I see a lot of
people make and it's not justyoung people.
I've seen this happen withpeople who are older as well,
who are trying to make up forlost time, but also younger
people who tend to be, morerisk-taking in their attitude
'cause they're younger.
Is the fact that they'reinvesting in assets or in
various investments that havelarge amounts of risk, hoping to
(26:14):
get rich quick.
And I can assure people not justthrough my own experiences
anecdotally dealing withthousands of clients.
But also the research shows thisas well over and over again that
there really is no such thing asGet Rich quick.
Every once in a while someonewins the lottery and then, there
are things that do happen inlife, but the vast majority of
people who are millionaires orbillionaires, The wealth was
(26:37):
created over multiple decades.
In fact, the average millionairein the United States is 54 years
old.
For people who are 25 years oldthinking, I'm gonna get rich
quick and put all my money incrypto and make millions in a
couple years, that's probablynot likely.
I'm not saying don't put alittle bit of money in crypto.
What I'm saying is you need tobe careful Diversification.
I can't emphasize this enough.
(26:59):
Even Scott Galloway talks aboutthis quite a bit.
Diversification, and this issomething that's a mantra in
financial planning that allfinancial advisors typically
talk about.
You need to diversify, you needto have different asset classes,
different types of investments.
You need to manage the riskcarefully.
It's not about getting richquick, it's about getting rich
slow.
And I know it sounds boring to alot of people, it doesn't sound
(27:20):
exciting, but the reality is, ifyou think with a get rich slow
mentality, you're gonna probablyget rich and keep your money.
If you have a get rich quickmentality, you're probably gonna
lose most everything at somepoint.
So it's a very I can't emphasizeit enough.
And it's.
Very difficult.
Some sometimes get people totruly understand that concept.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (27:39):
Would you leave us with some words of
wisdom, maybe your advice onmaintaining that resilience and
adaptability and this changingjob market that we're in.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (27:51):
Being a problem solver, I have this
discussion with my studentsPeriodically, you can be an
order taker or you can be aproblem solver.
Employers are looking forproblem solvers.
So if you can find a way tosolve problems, be a solution
provider, that creates realvalue.
And I think that can give you acompetitive advantage,
especially in the interviewingprocess.
So that's basically what I wouldfocus on from the interviewing
(28:14):
perspective.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (28:15):
Yeah, and I would say that, I think
really, Matthew, you touched ona critical point is what is my
mission?
What is it that I want to do?
And if my entire mission isjust, gosh, I need to get an
income to support myself or myfamily.
That's important, but that's avery different sort of motive
than to say, wow, I know thiscompany does really great.
(28:37):
This or that, and I have so manyreally interesting ideas that I
would love to share and to helpthis company do better, because
I think it'll also basically dobetter for our community in some
way.
Whether you're selling a productor a service or working in the
healthcare industry, it's prettyeasy to find ways that you think
you can actually change lives.
(28:57):
So if people can tap into that.
And then work on regulationskills.
Work on the ways that help youto settle yourself.
It's gonna be different for eachperson that'll help you get
through and stay focused on thiskind of mission.
what is my purpose behind this?
And I think that is so criticalto really keep in mind.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110 (29:17):
What's the best way for listeners to
connect with you two and theresources that you offer?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (29:21):
We have a couple websites or our
main one is neuro consultinggroup.com.
And that's where they can seesome information about our
company.
And also it links to some onlinetraining that we have
prerecorded and developed that'sbased on the book, which by the
way, does give continuingeducation credits.
For CFP Board, PMI, projectManagement Institute and SHRM
(29:44):
hr.
Is that correct, Jeffrey?
I got those.
It also, it just breaks down theconcepts of the book in a nice
way that's easy to digest.
They can go to steadfastleader.com, which is where our
book is highlighted, althoughit's available at Amazon, Barnes
and Noble for those in the us.
And it, there's also an audiobook version of it that's
available.
(30:05):
Those are probably the twoeasiest ways to contact us is
through those sites.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (30:09):
We'll link to those in this episode's
description.
I'll put a link maybe to Amazonand the steadfast leader
book.com so listeners canquickly jump to that and then
those other sites that youlisted, so they'll look forward
to connecting with you.
Thank you both of you so muchfor sharing your time and
insight.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (30:24):
Thank you very much.
Welcome to the job interview experience.
I'm no psychologist, but I knowthis.
There's a whole lot going onwith job seekers, the stress of
unemployment, the stress beforejob interviews, the unknown
future.
Which I know many people thatare listening are in this
(00:20):
position.
Whether you don't know when thenext job will come, or you don't
know what your career will looklike and you're feeling some
stress, maybe you aren't whereyou wanna be.
Nerves, excitement, terror.
Like I said, there's a lot goingon.
My goal with the job interviewexperience is to help you
prepare, give you the tools tohelp build your confidence.
And when you're prepared, yournerves typically aren't as bad.
(00:42):
You perform better and getfurther.
I think it's important to digdeeper into the science of Job
interviews, learn how to staycalm, manage anxiety.
Be more steady, make betterdecisions and thrive in our
career.
So today we have two remarkableguests who blend the fields of
(01:02):
medicine, neuroscience, andbusiness to provide unique
perspectives today on jobinterviews and career
development.
Dr.
Randy Braze is a board certifiedpsychiatrist, currently serving
as a medical director for BlueCross Blue Shield of Arizona and
running a part-time privatepractice.
Dr.
Braze is also an active teacherin health related fields in a
(01:24):
published co-author in severalpeer reviewed business journals.
With experience in trauma,depression, and stress
treatments, Dr.
Brazy brings a wealth ofknowledge on how to stay
regulated.
And maintain a positive frame ofmind during things like the job
search process, or even, ofcourse, outside of that.
(01:45):
Joining us as well is Dr.
Jeffrey VanderPol, an educatorand financial advisor with a
robust background in finance,leadership, and business, In
fact, Dr.
VanderPol teaches in the Masterof Science in Finance Program at
Purdue University Global and isthe author of Invincible
Investing.
(02:05):
His expertise in market trendsand job opportunities,
especially in the evolvinglandscape of in-office remote
and hybrid work environments.
Make him a valuable resource forcareer seekers.
Together they co-authored TheSteadfast Leader, a book that
integrates the latest scientificunderstanding of the human
(02:26):
nervous system to help leadersstay focused and make better
decisions.
Today we're gonna explore all ofthis.
I think I've talked way morethan I should, but we have great
guests today and I want to dojustice to their backgrounds.
Welcome guys.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (02:41):
Thank you, Matthew.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (02:43):
Can you share a little bit about
your background and what led upto today and your focus on the
intersection of neuroscience,psychiatry, and business?
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (02:52):
Randy and I have been friends for
years and.
About three years ago, we werehaving dinner one night and we
were just chatting about some ofthe work that we're doing in our
respective fields.
And I've always had a verystrong interest in psychology.
And because of Randy'sbackground, I always pick his
brain regarding psychologymatters.
we were just having aninteresting conversation.
I was asking about some of thework he was doing with Somatic
Experience and Trauma and PTSDand to understand that world a
(03:15):
little better.
And as he was talking about someof the work that he was doing he
started.
Talking about polyvagal theoryand Neuroception interoception,
these terms that I had nofamiliarity with initially.
And as he was explaining allthis to me, I was thinking about
the linkage to leadership andleadership models, and we went
down this path of having aconversation about how there's
(03:37):
really a gap in leadership andbusiness decision making and
using some of these.
Areas of psychology that couldbe very influential in business.
And so we started basicallywriting down some ideas on a
napkin in the restaurant, so tospeak, and thought, Hey, let's
write a book.
And we joked about a little bit,but shortly thereafter we
(03:58):
actually started working onwriting the book.
And it took some time, but weco-authored The Steadfast
Leader, which was published byMcGraw Hill late last year.
But we also co-authored I thinknow we're at five peer reviewed
journal articles in variousbusiness journals.
And we're working on some othermaterials.
And we have a second book thatwe're working on as well that's
being shopped to differentpublishers.
(04:18):
So this has really turned intosomething that from the initial
catalyst stage to somethingthat's really have grown quite a
bit.
And it's been an interestingjourney so far.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_11080 (04:27):
What can job seekers that are feeling
that stress, anxiety and nerves,what can they do?
What are some techniques theycan use?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (04:35):
Yeah, Matthew, this is a great
question.
we have all these theories andideas, but how do I implement
this?
One of the things that we'reclear about is that we don't
expect people to becometherapists or to have to go back
to school and learn a bunch ofneuroscience.
So we really strive to providevery actionable, easy to digest
information and practical tips.
(04:57):
So the first step is that if youwant to know how to wrangle with
these anxieties you have to knowthyself.
You have to know how your ownnervous system, how you as a
person tend to react to stress.
And we talk about this in thebook is basically our nervous
system is constantly scanningthe environment for signs of
(05:17):
danger or safety.
And this is a very automaticinstinctual process.
The nervous system makes thedecision whether we're safe or
not on its own.
Without our thinking brain, it'sautomatic.
And what happens then is basedon its determination the nervous
system will then put you in astate that sort of matches with
(05:39):
where it thinks it's at.
So this could be if everything'sfine, everything's safe we might
be in what we call the socialengagement state.
Which is where everything'scool.
We can connect and enjoy hangingout with each other as people.
Think about an interview wherethings are going really well and
you like the interviewer andyou're really flowing and
laughing and enjoying.
(05:59):
That's somebody who is theirnervous system has decided.
Yep, we're cool.
If, however, the nervous systemthinks we're in a bit of danger
here, there's some potentialthreat.
We notice then that oursympathetic nervous system,
which of course people know isthe fight or flight system
starts to activate.
And when that does, this iswhere people really need to
(06:20):
know.
What are my signs when I amactivated?
Do I get hot and sweaty?
Does my chest tighten?
Does my heart start to pound?
Do I get shaky?
Then if the nervous systemthinks that not only are we in
danger, but we're not gonna getout of it, we actually might
what we call immobilize.
This is where a person candissociate a bit, and so they
(06:41):
look like they're talking andthinking and responding, but the
brain literally is disconnected.
The instinctive brain from thethinking brain.
You talk about people whodoesn't seem like it's getting
in or they're not reallyretaining what's being talked
about For any of your listeners,think about the times you've
gone through an interview andwalked out and thought what
happened?
I don't remember.
That's what dissociation lookslike.
(07:03):
So knowing myself is whathappens to me when I'm in one of
these three states, because thenyou can start to more quickly
identify, ah, I'm going intofight or flight.
The second stage then is how doyou actually implement that?
What do you do to then shiftyourself into a state that's
more useful?
And that's something that we cantalk about a little further.
(07:24):
And these are the skills that wetalk about in the book, but also
teach in our trainings.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (07:28):
Would it be accurate to guess that
people typically don't performwell in that state?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (07:34):
It could be either, and I'm sure
Jeffrey has many examples wherehe's seen in the business world
of somebody may look likethey're on fire and performing
well, but they don't recall whatthe heck happened.
Or somebody that might bestumbling or fumbling or just
withdrawing.
This is the person that mighteven just say.
flight, which is the higherlevel, the fight or flight.
Flight could be that they justbail out.
(07:55):
They just run away.
So yes, you're right.
They can look like they're veryhigh functioning.
But there's a scientific reasonbehind that, and it's basically
a section of the brain thatconnects your thinking brain
with your non-thinking brain.
And that tends to kinda shutdown when we're too freaked out.
So you have the two regions thatare working independently.
They're not coordinating witheach other, so this is why you
(08:16):
can get a different presentationdepending on the situation.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110 (08:20):
What's interesting about job interviews
is the physical situation youare in, if your body is
triggering fight or flight isyou're usually in a room with a
closed door and it's eitherone-on-one or.
Three to five people steering atyou from the other side of the
room, whether it would beclaustrophobia or our gut
instinct saying, Hey you'retrapped in somewhere with a
(08:42):
bunch of people who aren'tnecessarily on your side.
You wanna close the door so it'snot noisy and there's no
distractions.
I think it's a friendly setup,but.
with our gut instinct, right?
With that kind of reptilianbrain fight or flight, none of
these things work out in thefavor of the job seeker.
For the interviewer, it's justthe office, right?
It's just a boring conferenceroom.
(09:02):
For in-person interviews, isthere anything.
A job seeker could do to helpwarm up that situation for
themselves so that when they sitdown, they don't feel like they
are, physically in a bad place.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (09:17):
Yeah, and I know we can talk a bit
about, Jeffrey has a lot ofexpertise around.
Recommendations around how toconduct interviews and also
advising organizations on howthey can try to reduce these
cues of danger is what we callwhat you just described,
Matthew.
But very quickly.
There are a lot of differentways to regulate oneself and
they don't necessarily have tobe super fancy.
(09:38):
They also can be things that arevery subtle so that you can do
these things without reallyanybody noticing.
So what do I mean by this?
For example, one concept that welearned from my training in
somatic experiencing is that.
Think about that phrase.
He was like a deer in theheadlights, right?
So what do we do when we'refreaked out?
(09:59):
We freeze.
We try to fix our gaze on whatthe potential threat is and we
don't notice what else is goingon around us.
So we can actually trick ourbrains into thinking we're not
in danger by doing the opposite.
This is what we call orienting.
So we'll invite people to simplylook around.
If you are in that room,actually take the time to look
(10:20):
around and check out yourenvironment.
What do you see?
Notice the things, even namethose things inside, mentally
into your head.
Oh, there's a chair, there's adesk, there's a coffee cup,
there's another chair.
Don't judge things'cause you, ifyou get in the judgment, that
just leads you down the wronggarden path.
We invite people to practicethis when they're not in a high
stress situation.
(10:41):
Once it clicks with you, you getit.
You'll realize that your brainwill automatically say, oh,
we're not in any danger'causewe're looking around.
Cool.
We can stand down.
We're okay.
We also use a lot of othermindful techniques.
You mentioned something aboutbreathing.
There's certain types ofbreathing techniques that people
can use that will help them.
We do not recommend just doingrandom deep breathing because if
(11:02):
you have any kind of history ofanxiety or scary experiences,
you might actually triggeryourself into more of a state of
panic.
For example, Navy Seals do thebox breathing right.
Breathe in for four, hold forfour, breathe out for four, and
then wait for four before thenext breath.
Andrew Weil talks about 4, 7, 8breathing, which comes from
(11:23):
ancient India.
Where you breathe in for four,hold for a count of seven, and
then breathe out slowly for acount of eight.
So there are different thingsthat people can play with.
To try to see what regulatestheir system.
The last example I'll mention isyou can just do mindful sitting.
So you're there in the chairdoing the interview.
Try to take the elevator out ofyour brain and notice in your
(11:46):
body where you feel contacteither with the chair or your
feet on the floor, and try tofocus on that sensation.
Really lean into it.
Feel that contact.
That's a very sort ofinstinctive way to tell your
brain we're okay.
Safe and supported much like amother would hold the infant and
support the infant that way tohelp soothe them to calm.
(12:09):
I don't know if you have anyother thoughts, Jeffrey, around
that.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (12:11):
Yeah.
And I think also, those are all,excellent suggestions that
individuals can put into effectfor calming themselves in those
situations.
Another thing they can do isbefore the interview, they make
sure they're well prepared forthe interview.
Learning about the company,learning about the person that
you're interviewing with, ifthey can learn enough where they
can have a casual conversationcoming in to break the ice.
(12:33):
'cause if the interviewer is notsomeone who's overly sociable,
or really engaging couldactually engage the interviewer
to a degree and try to breakthat ice and create a more
pleasant and calming environmentthat way.
Now, of course, as theinterviewee is being
interviewed, the stress levelscan be high and that can
sometimes be difficult withpractice, though, that can be
(12:55):
done.
Some of these ideas do take somepractice, but once mastered it
can make a profound difference.
How people go into an interviewprocess how they perceive the
interview process and howthey're perceived as well.
So learning some of these socialengagement cues and tips is
really important as they gothrough that process.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (13:14):
It is really hard not to be overly
excitable For extreme introvertsthat are listening I think they
actually have a leg up herebecause the volume's not turned
up quite as high for extrovertsthat are getting all of this
extreme energy from the room.
I wanna repeat, I'm not apsychologist, I've just
witnessed a lot of this.
So please correct me where I'mwrong, but I'll see people, they
(13:36):
come in, start talking wayfaster, a little bit jerkier,
body movements, maybe a littlemore interrupting.
When I coach people on this, Ihelp them think of just boring.
You're walking in the room andone of your parents is there.
It's Hey mom.
Not that's what you wanna do,but if you're gonna be a 10,
outta 10, you come in and, youthrow the hand out, you shake
and you're, you start asking quelike, oh, that's great art on
(13:58):
the wall.
And this is a great table.
that's what people tend to do.
If you can approach it.
Hey guys, good to see everybody.
And integrate that into at leastthe first moments to set a stage
of that calm and quiet like yousaid, Dr.
VanderPol.
That seems to help when you justtry and normalize things a
little bit.
And then the other side, whenyou talked about naming.
(14:21):
There's a cup, there's a plate.
In my mind, what that does isyou're almost reminding
yourself, this is all verynormal,?
There's no cleaver on the table,my body, for some reason, thinks
that this a should be highstress situation.
There should be danger.
This is an office, This is aconference room.
There's a cup, there's a table,there's some kind of boring
artwork, Looks like it belongsin a hotel lobby.
(14:43):
Everything's okay.
I think that's gonna be reallyhelpful for listeners.
When I have a stressful phonecall or when I've had job
interviews on the phone as theinterviewee, I tend to pace and
I'm someone who could wear outthe carpet in the house just
doing circles, whether it's aphone call with a friend,
where're, trying to maybe figuresomething out, something's
broken.
I'm trying to walk someonethrough how to fix something or
(15:04):
like I said, maybe I'm beinginterviewed or something like
that.
What do we do with that energy,whether it's a phone interview,
video interview, in-personinterview?
Where can all of that go?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-2 (15:15):
That gets to really the concept of
that you have this survivalenergy.
So Steven Porges, who foundedthe Polyvagal theory, which is
the backbone of a lot of ourapproaches, he describes that as
the nervous system is alldressed up with no to go.
And so you basically, you havesurvival energy, so you have to
do something with it, right?
This is exactly what you'reasking.
(15:36):
It might be that if you're on aphone interview that you need to
pace, that's actually perfectlyfine, provided that you're not
getting yourself so ramped upand overstimulated that then you
start to lose the plot.
Basically lose the train of yourthought or what you're trying to
achieve.
It could be these mindfulapproaches.
So some people do mindfulwalking.
So if you're pacing, drop yourawareness, take that elevator
(15:59):
out of your head and actuallypay attention to your feet.
What does it feel like to pacein your feet?
What does your body feel like asit does that?
If you're on a video type thing,when you're trying to sit still
maybe you need to focus on whereyou make connection.
Like I said, with the chair,with the floor.
Maybe put your hands on the deskand feel that connection.
(16:21):
Do these orienting skills.
Ultimately, when you have thissurvival energy, when you're in
the moment, it's gonna be hardfor you to, do something too
obvious run and pace and or doanything.
'cause then they're gonna thinkyou're a bit odd or that you're
a bit too anxious.
But maybe, before, Jeffreyreally touched upon an important
point is that preparing yourselfbefore help boost your
(16:42):
confidence.
So maybe before you need to dosomething like, throw down a few
pushups or jog in place or.
Keep working on settling yoursystem.
You have to find what works foryou in the moment and it's gonna
be different for each person.
Yeah, so those would be some ofmy thoughts around
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19- (17:00):
And I would just add that, there's
different things for differentpeople.
So like for example, I had totake an exam recently.
I was doing another master'sdegree.
And the test was a littlestressful, so I took a walk
around the block before I satdown for the exam.
For me, that actually calmed mynerves and took some of that
nervous energy away.
You could even do that for a jobinterview.
(17:22):
If it's the right environment,maybe walk around.
The lobby for a little bit, oryou walk around the block if
that's possible, or walk aroundthe building, if it's
appropriate.
if you have a lot of nervousenergy, you can work a little
bit of that off.
Now, you shouldn't be joggingaround getting all sweaty,
obviously, before the interviewbut certainly you can let some
of that energy off if you have alot of nervous energy.
For some people it might belistening to certain types of
(17:43):
music if there's certain musicthat calms you down.
Then maybe listening to themusic on the way to the
interview.
Or if you have headphones, maybebefore you go into the interview
and listen to the music for alittle bit, that might put you
into a calmer state as well.
So there's different techniques,like Randy was talking about all
different types of techniques,but you have to find what works
for you those techniques can bevery useful for calming down
(18:06):
nervous system.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (18:08):
Do you have any advice for people,
to get to a better place or tohelp set themself up for success
so that their finances, don'toverwhelm the process of getting
a job.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (18:18):
Yeah, there's a couple things and some
of this might seem like commonsense, but unfortunately human
nature, always follow this path.
Number one budgeting is reallyimportant.
And that's one of the firstthings we talk about in
financial planning is how do youproperly budget?
Doesn't everyone budget?
No, actually a lot of peopledon't really budget.
If you sit down with mostpeople, for 20 years I was
certified financial planner andmet with thousands of clients,
(18:41):
and I would say the vastmajority.
Did not have a real good idea oftheir actual budget.
The first thing we did wasactually sat down, looked at
their income, what they paid intaxes, all their bills, rent,
mortgage, everything, and brokeit down, health insurance
expense, et cetera.
And when you start to do thatand break it down, you start
understanding, where's the moneycoming from and where is it
(19:02):
going?
You can better allocate yourresources and figure out how to
better not only invest yourmoney, but also.
Where can you get someefficiencies and save more?
And that's really, the firststep.
The second thing I think is veryimportant is not to over and
debt ourselves.
And there's nothing wrong withhaving a little bit of debt.
We take out a mortgage to get ahome.
(19:22):
Most people can't afford to paycash for a home, understandably.
It's an expensive asset.
Same for cars.
Cars are very expensive.
Most people take out a loan.
Understandable.
It's okay to take a loan out forthe car'cause it gets you to
work and helps you make money,right?
It's a resource that allows youto earn income.
The home is an asset thathopefully will appreciate in
value over time and it's a placeto live for you and your family.
(19:44):
There's reasons for taking outdebt for those purposes, but
just to spend on things that youdon't need on credit cards and
pay excessive interest rates.
Is really not a wise way ofmanaging your money, and
unfortunately a lot of peopleare spending money on things who
are not managing their budgetswell and they have excessive
credit card debt.
Now, there are emergencies andthings that happen in life,
(20:05):
understandably, where you know,you might have to use a credit
card to pay a medical bill.
I certainly understand that.
But a lot of cases people arelocating their resources and
taking on a lot of debt whenthey don't need to.
So I think those are the twobiggest elements to be aware of.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110801 (20:23):
And it sounds like some of that one
could be long term and one couldbe short term.
So long term would be trying tofill up that rainy day fund
emergency savings account, andthe other would be.
Maybe you see layoffs coming oryou've recently been laid off,
not the best time maybe to go onsuch a nice vacation.
Or maybe it's better to holdonto the car, right?
If the car's running maybe notpurchase a new car just yet.
(20:46):
I've seen people who have lostjobs and they've saved so well
that it's I think I'm gonna takea couple weeks.
Just relax and then I'm gonnaget on the job search.
And not everyone has theprivilege to be in that spot.
And that's something that youcan't just snap your fingers and
be there, being able to liveyour life in that type of way
(21:06):
and budget and plan.
I've seen this in people thatthe urgency, the stress of the
job search, it removes thosefinancial factors.
At least.
You might not know when you'llget the next job.
You might not know who wants youor where the demand is for your
skills, but at least you're notcounting down maybe days or
(21:27):
weeks until you have to have ajob and.
My wish would be that, jobseekers could be unburdened of
that.
That's just the reality for manypeople.
So that short and long termtoday is the time to start
thinking about that.
Especially as listeners get jobsand get that income back to
start saving and have that,people call it a cushion, right?
(21:47):
Or safety net, where no matterwhat happens, the employment
does not have total control overyour life and lifestyle.
whether it be a couple days or acouple weeks to breathe a little
bit in between jobs, takes acouple mental health weeks,
whatever that might be.
That seems to be a veryempowering situation for people
(22:07):
to be in if they can getthemselves to that spot.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19-2 (22:09):
if you look at human nature in
regards to making more money,what's the first thing people
do?
They buy a bigger house, theybuy fancier cars, right?
They buy more things for thehome, they buy more expensive
clothes.
List goes on.
And you hear about people thatare claiming they're making half
million a year, million a year,and they're claiming I don't
have much money left over.
At the end of the year, ofcourse, people making 50,000,
(22:30):
they go, what are you talkingabout?
That's crazy.
But the reality is they justkeep spending more.
So you really should be savingmore instead of spending more.
But unfortunately most peopledon't do that.
So they wanna upgrade theirlifestyle and I understand
people wanna, have a betterlife, but at the same time, you
have to be very rational andreasonable about it.
So if you are making moreincome, you really should be
(22:51):
focusing on putting more of thataway in savings, retirement, and
not just saying, oh, I can gobuy some jet skis now.
Oh, I can get a bigger house, orI can buy a third car.
They don't really need, but it'dbe nice to have, so at some
point you have to say, okay, Ineed to pull the reins back a
little bit and think about myfuture and go, I need to save
money.
And this is something I spend alot of time, especially with
(23:11):
younger clients over the years,trying to get them to understand
that the time value of money,the compounding of money over
time is so critically important.
You start in your twentiessaving even a couple thousand
dollars a year.
That grows into substantialamounts of money by the time you
hit retirement.
But most people didn't eventhink about really saving money
(23:31):
until about their late fortiesgetting into their fifties.
And by that point it's much moredifficult'cause you have to save
a lot more'cause you have ashorter period of time.
'cause the compounding effectisn't as strong.
It's almost like an inverted skislope basically going up the ski
slope that when you look atcompounding exponentially, the
further you go up, the more themoney actually grows.
(23:52):
It's really amazing.
And if people better understoodthat very simple concept, they'd
be able to save a lot moremoney.
I think be a bit moredisciplined.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_11080 (24:02):
What has the reaction been to the
steadfast leader?
Do you have any stories orfeedback from readers?
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (24:11):
Yeah, we've had some people close to
us actually read the book andcome back to us directly and
say, look, this book is verydifferent from other leadership
books.
And they really enjoyed readingit, and they learned a lot from
it.
They've read other leadershipbooks, but found ours to be
quite different than what's onthe market.
It's one of the reasons whyMcGraw-Hill picked up the book,
as first time authors.
That was a pretty big deal.
(24:32):
And they saw something in thebook that was very different
than other leadership books onthe market.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (24:37):
As a matter of fact, I just before
our recording this podcast justgot off a meeting with a woman
who's an executive coach inLondon who had found us on
LinkedIn, she's also trained in.
Understanding Polyvagal theory.
She trained under Deb Dana, thefamous therapist translated
theory from science to actuallanguage the rest of us could
(24:58):
understand.
And she was just very fascinatedwith the book.
We're getting a lot of peopleacknowledging that this is
different rather than just usingthe same old models and
rebranding them.
We're trying to do somethingthat really brings in a much
more holistic picture ofunderstanding how we as human
beings work.
Listening to Jeffrey talkingabout, some of those recent
(25:20):
comments reminded me of how as apsychiatrist, human beings
react.
Like people going into financialstress, how they do the doom
spending, right?
They just say fine, forget it.
I'm just gonna blow all the lastlittle bits of money, or.
And it gets into some of thesebiases that you talked about
where we make these largejudgements or decisions on an
impulsive level basically onfaulty logic once we're
(25:44):
triggered once our instinctivedrives or our survival
mechanisms are triggered.
It's very interesting how wehumans react to situations.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-19-20 (25:51):
I would just add too, the
gambler's fallacy.
Speaking of biases, one of thebiggest mistakes I see a lot of
people make and it's not justyoung people.
I've seen this happen withpeople who are older as well,
who are trying to make up forlost time, but also younger
people who tend to be, morerisk-taking in their attitude
'cause they're younger.
Is the fact that they'reinvesting in assets or in
various investments that havelarge amounts of risk, hoping to
(26:14):
get rich quick.
And I can assure people not justthrough my own experiences
anecdotally dealing withthousands of clients.
But also the research shows thisas well over and over again that
there really is no such thing asGet Rich quick.
Every once in a while someonewins the lottery and then, there
are things that do happen inlife, but the vast majority of
people who are millionaires orbillionaires, The wealth was
(26:37):
created over multiple decades.
In fact, the average millionairein the United States is 54 years
old.
For people who are 25 years oldthinking, I'm gonna get rich
quick and put all my money incrypto and make millions in a
couple years, that's probablynot likely.
I'm not saying don't put alittle bit of money in crypto.
What I'm saying is you need tobe careful Diversification.
I can't emphasize this enough.
(26:59):
Even Scott Galloway talks aboutthis quite a bit.
Diversification, and this issomething that's a mantra in
financial planning that allfinancial advisors typically
talk about.
You need to diversify, you needto have different asset classes,
different types of investments.
You need to manage the riskcarefully.
It's not about getting richquick, it's about getting rich
slow.
And I know it sounds boring to alot of people, it doesn't sound
(27:20):
exciting, but the reality is, ifyou think with a get rich slow
mentality, you're gonna probablyget rich and keep your money.
If you have a get rich quickmentality, you're probably gonna
lose most everything at somepoint.
So it's a very I can't emphasizeit enough.
And it's.
Very difficult.
Some sometimes get people totruly understand that concept.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (27:39):
Would you leave us with some words of
wisdom, maybe your advice onmaintaining that resilience and
adaptability and this changingjob market that we're in.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (27:51):
Being a problem solver, I have this
discussion with my studentsPeriodically, you can be an
order taker or you can be aproblem solver.
Employers are looking forproblem solvers.
So if you can find a way tosolve problems, be a solution
provider, that creates realvalue.
And I think that can give you acompetitive advantage,
especially in the interviewingprocess.
So that's basically what I wouldfocus on from the interviewing
(28:14):
perspective.
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19- (28:15):
Yeah, and I would say that, I think
really, Matthew, you touched ona critical point is what is my
mission?
What is it that I want to do?
And if my entire mission isjust, gosh, I need to get an
income to support myself or myfamily.
That's important, but that's avery different sort of motive
than to say, wow, I know thiscompany does really great.
(28:37):
This or that, and I have so manyreally interesting ideas that I
would love to share and to helpthis company do better, because
I think it'll also basically dobetter for our community in some
way.
Whether you're selling a productor a service or working in the
healthcare industry, it's prettyeasy to find ways that you think
you can actually change lives.
(28:57):
So if people can tap into that.
And then work on regulationskills.
Work on the ways that help youto settle yourself.
It's gonna be different for eachperson that'll help you get
through and stay focused on thiskind of mission.
what is my purpose behind this?
And I think that is so criticalto really keep in mind.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_110 (29:17):
What's the best way for listeners to
connect with you two and theresources that you offer?
squadcaster-537d_1_07-19-202 (29:21):
We have a couple websites or our
main one is neuro consultinggroup.com.
And that's where they can seesome information about our
company.
And also it links to some onlinetraining that we have
prerecorded and developed that'sbased on the book, which by the
way, does give continuingeducation credits.
For CFP Board, PMI, projectManagement Institute and SHRM
(29:44):
hr.
Is that correct, Jeffrey?
I got those.
It also, it just breaks down theconcepts of the book in a nice
way that's easy to digest.
They can go to steadfastleader.com, which is where our
book is highlighted, althoughit's available at Amazon, Barnes
and Noble for those in the us.
And it, there's also an audiobook version of it that's
available.
(30:05):
Those are probably the twoeasiest ways to contact us is
through those sites.
matthew_1_07-19-2024_1108 (30:09):
We'll link to those in this episode's
description.
I'll put a link maybe to Amazonand the steadfast leader
book.com so listeners canquickly jump to that and then
those other sites that youlisted, so they'll look forward
to connecting with you.
Thank you both of you so muchfor sharing your time and
insight.
geoffrey-vanderpal_1_07-1 (30:24):
Thank you very much.
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