April 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Dr. Sharon Hull: Founder of Meta Solutions and author of Professional Careers by Design, Dr. Hull brings 35 years of experience as a physician and coach to help over 450 clients pivot careers.
Beating Self-Doubt: She shares her "hip pocket questions," starting with "What matters most to you?" to guide listeners through career uncertainty.
Five-Step Framework: Identify what matters to you, your stakeholders, and your organization, then align and act—practical steps for any transition.
Life Stage Insights: Early careers focus on skills, mid-careers on balance, and later ones on caretaking; most prioritize personal (70%) over professional goals.
Staying Adaptable: With long-term jobs rare, she advises building a priority “touchstone” to navigate today’s flexible career landscape.
When to Shift: Use the "Stay-Go Grid" (Stay/Go vs. Survive/Thrive) and "Four Es" (Education, Experience, Exposure, Enthusiasm) to spot the right time to move.
Cover Letter Tips: Keep it short, narrative-driven, and tied to the company’s needs—e.g., link a caregiving gap to relevant skills.
Real Stories: A leader tweaked her life for her kids, and a retiree chased a Hollywood dream—proof her tools work.
Core Message: Life is one—design it intentionally. Connect at www.metasolutions.com
https://moveupcareers.com/strategycall
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-job-interview-experience/id1538223546
https://moveupcareers.com/survey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (00:00):
If you are feeling self-doubt about
the next step in your career, ifyou're struggling with
transitioning pivoting to a newrole, a new industry, a new
skillset.
Or maybe you lack clarity onwhat you're doing.
Is there a game plan day by day?
How quickly is time going topass without things changing?
(00:20):
Dr.
Sharon Hole is here to bringdirection.
We're going to dig into how tomake things happen, like career
transitions, making a plan forwhat to do next, and of course,
getting there, whether it bestrategizing, cover letters,
adding intention to resumes.
And proven tools for careertransition.
Dr.
(00:40):
Sharon Hole is the founder ofMeta Solutions, an academic
professional with 35 years ofexperience and over 13 years as
an effective executive coach.
She has successfully coachedover.
450 clients dedicating thousandsof hours to career planning job
search strategies, andnavigating professional
(01:04):
transitions.
Sharon's background includes anextensive career as a family
physician with roles in solorural practice, academic
medicine, and administrativeleadership.
She's also the author ofProfessional Careers by Design,
A handbook for the Bespoke Life,which guides readers through
(01:24):
career changes from training toretirement and encore careers.
Sharon is passionate abouthelping individuals just like
you achieve their personal andprofessional goals.
Sharon, welcome to the jobinterview experience.
dr--sharon-hull--she-h (01:39):
Matthew, it is great to be here with you
and with your audience.
Thank you for the opportunity.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (01:44):
Many listeners struggle with
self-doubt maybe day to daythroughout their entire lives,
but if they're listening to thispodcast, they are.
Trying to figure out how topivot within maybe the company
they're at, gain a promotion oreven just get a job in general.
Maybe they have been on the jobmarket for a while.
Things aren't moving as quicklyor in the direction that they
(02:06):
want.
With that self-doubt, can youshare techniques you've used to
help clients overcome doubt andtake action?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (02:16):
Sure.
And Matthew, I'm really gladthat you framed it the way you
did because it's so easy in thisjob market or in the process of
interviewing wherever you are inthat journey.
This can be very stressful andit can cause people to lose
hope.
And my goal with the book, mygoal with this conversation is
(02:37):
to help people know that thereis.
A way to fall back on whatmatters to you, make those
decisions, and even when thechoices before you don't seem
very great, you can make thebest choice you've got in the
circumstances you find yourself.
So that's where I hope we get totalk today.
You asked me to sharestrategies.
(02:59):
I think what I'll do is startwith just saying that question,
what matters most to you rightnow at this season of your life
is really a bedrock question formaking decisions.
Even in tough times, and itmight seem really simplistic,
but the idea of saying whatmatters to me is it that I need
(03:20):
to.
Have a job and have a paycheck.
Is it that I want to get out ofa toxic situation or into a
better situation financially orin terms of moving up the
career, the proverbial careerladder, whatever the reason for
thinking about changing,starting with what matters right
now is a great place to startand I can elaborate on that, but
(03:42):
I will give you a shot atresponding first.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (03:44):
When we think about what matters,
what comes to mind for me isprioritizing, In different times
in life, it might be having funwith friends, going out, uh,
living the adventure.
And then oftentimes as we growprofessionally and in our
personal lives, I.
A lot of those priorities shiftaway from us in certain ways,
whether it's caring for family,whether that be parents,
(04:06):
grandparents, or children.
How do we balance these thingsand our professional goals and
the sacrifices we have to maketo get there?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her (04:15):
That's where this, I have what I call
the hip pocket questions.
It's really five questions toask yourself and those around
you.
It starts with what matters toyou.
And the way that I ask people tothink about that question is to
imagine writing a top 10 list ofthe things that matter.
You don't even have toprioritize them at the
beginning, just write them down.
(04:38):
And I tell people, your list hasto include some personal and
some professional things, butthere's no right ratio.
You just have to be attentive toboth.
So make your list of those top10 things and then.
Put them in a priority order foryou as if you're the only one
who has to answer that question.
(04:59):
Then you ask yourself, who aremy stakeholders?
Who are the people that if Idon't have a job or if I take a
job overseas would be reallyimpacted by the decisions that
I'm making?
Those are your stakeholders.
They are often, but not always,a spouse with significant other.
Sometime it's always yourchildren if you have them, but
(05:22):
the degree of involvement thatthey have in the decision
varies.
And sometimes there are otherstakeholders.
I have coached clients whoreally didn't wanna leave a
strong friend community or astrong faith community.
And so whatever matters to you.
Ask yourself, who matters to menext?
And then go ask those people ifthey are of anything approaching
(05:45):
an adult age.
Ask them what matters to them.
Ask them to make their own top10 list independent of you.
And don't compare notes tillyou've both or all done your
list.
So those are the first twoquestions.
What matters most to me?
What matters most to mystakeholders?
And then ask yourself if you'recurrently employed, what matters
(06:07):
to my current organization ifyou're not currently employed,
but interviewing what matters tothe organization or
organizations that I'minterviewing with?
Their list is not gonna be thesame as yours.
Neither is your stakeholderslist, by the way.
But you start saying, what's thepriority of the organization I'm
hoping to work with?
Then you ask question four, isthere alignment between my list,
(06:31):
my stakeholders list, theorganizational lists of the
organizations I'm thinking aboutleaving or going to?
And the fifth question is, ifthere is not alignment, what do
I want to do about it?
What am I able to do about it?
And if there is really goodalignment.
How do I wanna stay here andthrive?
(06:52):
So that's a quick run through myfive hipp pocket questions, and
I'll toss it back to you forwhatever you'd like to dig into
from there.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (07:00):
Of course, there's no right answers
or wrong answers here.
I'm curious if you've identifiedpatterns with clients that
you've worked on these lists ofand what you've learned from
those patterns.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (07:12):
I have identified patterns, and
what's fascinating to me is whatmy clients learn.
I'm learning the patterns, butthey're learning what it means
to them, right?
So some common things I seeearly in a career as you were
talking in the intro sometimesour choices really get to focus
on us.
If we don't have a lot of otherstakeholder responsibilities, it
may be the time that we chooseto travel and be a digital
(07:34):
nomad.
It may be that we can't do thatfor some reason, but early in
the career, there is a lot offocus on advancement.
There's a lot of focus onbuilding skills.
And frankly I'm in the boomergeneration, so when our younger
colleagues look at boomers andsay, okay, boomer, that's me.
They're talking to, I'm tryingto learn from them because
(07:57):
they've got this idea that Ithink we older folks could
benefit from.
They know something about whatmatters to them and they're
going after it faster than wedid.
I think that's a good thing.
And what I would, the reason Ibrought that up is that.
They're asking the questions andearly career people are more
(08:20):
facile with those questions.
They're more attuned to whatmatters to them.
What I see in mid-career ispeople are beginning to get
overwhelmed by the sheer volumeof work they have to do.
And frankly, if they are goingto build a family, that's the
time that's often happening andchildcare.
Or dual career couples will.
(08:42):
And I guess what I would sayabout that is the priority
shift.
It's not just about, oh, I cango be a digital nomad and work
from Thailand, or I can live thevan life and go do all around
the country.
That's great.
But there's a time and a seasonfor some people where they
can't, what I see in.
(09:03):
Mid-career to senior career isthat the caretaking
responsibilities often straddlegenerations.
There may be folks caretakingchildren and parents, or other
loved ones, and the demandschange on our time and our
seniority changes and what wecare about changes.
(09:23):
There is a constant pattern thatI see though, that I wanna share
with you when I ask people tomake their top 10 list and then
rank.
Order the things that matter andthen come back and tell me what
they learned.
Do you know?
Here's the most common thingthey say to me.
It stuns me that my first seventhings are personal, not
(09:46):
professional.
And that has been a responseI've gotten from people at all
stages of career.
And it just opens up what Ithink our younger colleagues are
saying is life is not all workand it's not all professional
ladder climbing.
So it's a really powerfulexercise and you can't do it
(10:06):
wrong.
So that's the other bit ofencouragement I'll give people.
Just make your top 10 list.
And if you can't get to 10, doseven.
Do whatever you can come upwith, but just make sure you
have personal and professionalthings on the list.
Thanks for letting me go onabout that for a minute.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (10:23):
If we do 10 questions and seven are
personal, and that's thepattern, I'd be 70%, If those
are the priorities how much ofthat are they living out?
If 70% is personal, are theystill giving 90% to
professional?
Where's the stress come from?
What ruins your day or nights orwhat causes the stress in your
life?
And my guess would be that'spretty unbalanced for most
(10:43):
people.
Their heart is 70% in thepersonal, but their life is
dominated by the professional.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (10:51):
I think that's a really astute
question, Matthew, and I'mreally glad you asked it because
it sets up the tension betweenpersonal and professional that
we have spoken about for yearsas work life balance or work
life alignment, and the realityis.
It's very rare that people arecompletely balanced in terms of
(11:11):
where their heart is and wheretheir profession calls them to
be if they want to besuccessful.
And so a lot of what we do incoaching is coaching around that
tension.
And the way that I encouragepeople to think about it is,
okay, you have your top 10 listin whatever order your heart put
down.
Is there a pressure from any oneof these things that is time
(11:34):
bound or that is really about, Ihave to get this done before I
get to X, so I gotta focus thereeven though I want to focus on
these other things.
So where's the tension?
And then.
You step back and look at thelist as a whole and say, how
could you organize your life andyour work to get more of those
(11:56):
things than you have now?
You very rarely are people goingto tell me they have, they would
rate themselves 10 out of 10 oneverything in their top 10
priority list.
I don't think I've ever seenthat.
I've never experienced itpersonally, and I think it's a,
not the realistic goal.
The goal for that list is it'syour touchstone.
(12:21):
It's the thing you come back towhen you're not sure what to do.
Start with that inventory andthen say, how could I get more
of these things?
And is there anything that has atime bound pressure to it?
So it's a great question.
I don't think we ever get fullybalanced.
This is a tool.
It's not the end point.
matthew_1_06-28-202 (12:42):
Traditional long-term career plans.
Have become outdated.
The old plans were rigid and nowwhether we like it or not, we
have to be flexible.
Make that choice by leaving ortaking, other jobs, promoting
ourselves by accepting outsideoffers, but seems like we now
have to be adaptable andflexible whether we like it or
(13:02):
not.
are some ways to do that andmake a career plan around
knowing that whether you want toor not, you're probably not
gonna be able to be at a companyfor 15 years.
I.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (13:12):
I think you've just hit on a real
shift in the way that peopleview work in Western society
over the last 50 years.
When I was growing up, when myparents were working, the idea
was you would get a job, youwould stay there for 30 or 40
years, get your retirement, getyour defined benefit pension,
and I.
Have a period of your life whereyou didn't work.
(13:34):
I think this is where ouryounger colleagues are saying to
us, that doesn't work anymore.
People in the generationsyounger than me watch their
parents lose their jobs and nothave any corporate loyalty.
If they're old enough toremember the 1980s and that
economic downturn, or theeconomic downturn in the 2008
(13:56):
era, or what happened in thepandemic.
Folks are realizing that theloyalty that 40 year commitment
required of employees isn'treturned by companies.
'cause companies may not last 40years anymore.
The pace of change is very fast,and that's, I think, a big
(14:17):
difference even in the last 10years, but certainly in the last
20.
Which is why I tell people it'shard to have a three, five, or
10 year career plan because wecan't even see three months
around the corner to know what'scoming in three months.
So we have to have analternative strategy that starts
with, okay, what really mattershere?
(14:37):
How do I get more of thosethings?
And then what do I have to putinto operation to get a way to
make a living that aligns withwhat matters to me?
So you ask what I think is botha generational and a societal
question, and it's a practicalquestion because I don't think
those 30 or 40 year jobs are outthere very much anymore.
(15:01):
I know the defined benefitpensions are not, and I just
think people have to adapt tothe world of work as it.
Is going to be not what it hasbeen.
I'll tell you that in writing mybook I started writing it during
the pandemic, but I've beengathering, information for it
(15:21):
for 10 or 12 years.
And during the pandemic, Iwatched the pace of change
accelerate.
It's oh, people need a differentway to look at this.
And that's when it becameapparent to me that I needed to
take this model of, you have atouchstone.
You have a set of tactics youcan do when you're in the job
(15:44):
transition, and you have to takethe long view of what's the
lifetime plan for your career,not just this job.
I don't know if that's what youwanted me to lead toward, but
that's where my brain went.
matthew_1_06-28-202 (15:58):
Identifying the right time for a career
shift is challenging, but fromwhat you and I have discussed so
far.
Being able to do so seemsimportant, whether it be by
analyzing what's going on inyour life, prioritizing and
realizing that there's too muchtension, Maybe you lose a job,
maybe your industry starts todisappear.
(16:18):
It could be many things.
What are some key signs thatmight indicate for our listeners
that they need to make a careertransition or start planning to
do so?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (16:29):
I think the first thing is to ask
yourself what's happening in theenvironment around you?
Does the organization thatyou're working with seem stable?
Is there a lot of turnover?
Is there an industry spanningchange that's happening?
Those can all be signals thatit's time to have.
(16:50):
An alternative plan.
The other thing, there are twotools in my book that I think
are really useful to, to thinkabout for this question.
The first is what I call thestay go grid.
It's basically draw a two by twotable or a four box square and
you label the two columns.
Stay and go.
You label the two rows, surviveand thrive.
(17:13):
Ask yourself which box you'rein.
Are you in stay and thrive, oryou've got your head down
staying and surviving till youcan figure out a plan.
Do you have a toxic boss youhave to leave to survive, or are
you looking for betteropportunities and you need to go
in order to really thrive?
(17:34):
That little exercise of justwhich box are you in can help
you think about how urgent isthe need to change and.
What might it look like for meto thrive?
So that's one tool.
The other tool I have clientsuse is what I call the four Es.
There are people could come upwith probably five or six other
(17:55):
E's, but I'll give you my four.
They're things that we get fromour job.
I happen to make a list that allstarted with E, so those ees are
education.
I'm learning something new.
I'm building a new skill.
That's worth staying for maybe.
The next thing is experience.
I'm getting experience doingsomething new that will help me
(18:18):
not only in this job, but maybein the next one.
The third is exposure.
I'm getting visibility.
I'm being seen doing this,having this skill, building this
expertise, leading in this way.
That's exposure.
The fourth E is enthusiasm.
I still love to get up and go dothis job every day.
(18:39):
Now, most of us don't have allfour ees for very long at any
given time, but if we've got twoor three, we're probably on that
stay and Thrive grid unlesswe've got a toxic boss.
If you find yourself having oneor zero, that's probably a good
time to look.
(19:00):
So those are two tools that Iuse a lot with clients to say,
is it time to look?
I am curious what else you hearfrom your audience about how
they do it?
What are the questions they'reasking?
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:13):
I hear a lot of emotion
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (19:15):
Yeah.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:16):
it, and of course, obvious answers
would be fear
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (19:19):
Yes.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:20):
the jumping into the unknown.
The other is time, right?
How long is it gonna take me tobecome adept in a new role or
industry to learn the jargon,but it's a lot of emotion, I
think, on leaving.
A good boss or a good company,something that has worked well
for you has helped pay thebills.
And I think that there iscorporate loyalty and then
(19:41):
emotional loyalty, and there'sprobably some other types as
well.
Corporate loyalty I think istransactional.
You've been good to me for awhile, but now you aren't.
And so now I'm not.
Or maybe I see the writing onthe walls of this company is
going under, so I have to beloyal to me.
That's, I'd say that's morecorporate or, or transactional.
And there's the emotional side.
I like my boss.
(20:02):
My boss took care of me.
This personal life eventhappened and my manager looked
out for me, gave me the time offI needed or whatever.
I think that's where people havetrouble because they don't know.
Whether it be a new company, anew industry wide culture of
maybe a industry is morecutthroat or maybe it's more
working hours.
(20:22):
That's what I see from listenersand the concerns that they have.
Will I fit?
In this industry, I know I cando the things.
I know I have the skills thatwill transition, but how will
this fit with me?
Because things seem to alignwith me personally in my current
role, industry company type.
That's what I've seen most of.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (20:44):
Okay.
I asked you a question, which isnot the way this is supposed to
go, but it gives me a way tojump off from what you're
hearing from your listeners.
I think there's an additionaltype of loyalty, and I think
you're spot on in terms ofdescribing the transactional
loyalty and the emotionalloyalty.
I think there's also a loyaltyto our.
Goals, a loyalty to ouraspirations.
(21:07):
And this is where I think gen X,gen Z, millennials.
Got it better than the boomersdid that.
Okay.
Look, if I'm not gonna build anew skill here and I've topped
out on what I can do, I gotta beloyal to the long game, and I
gotta go find a place I canlearn a new skill in the same
job, family, or in a differentindustry completely so that I
(21:30):
can maximize the long-termsuccess of my career, not just
for one job.
The shift is that people arethinking more long term about
what's the portfolio of skillsthey're building and experience
they're getting, and that Iwould think of that in your
framework as a loyalty toaspirations.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (21:50):
Of the ways to help facilitate a
career transition is a coverletter.
If used correctly, I think CoverLetter is a great place to make
sense of why I am applying from.
X industry to y industry what?
A company how the skills youhave may be eliminate wine spots
(22:11):
in their Or your exposure tothings that they may not see can
give them a competitiveadvantage.
I don't want to spend the next20 minutes of me talking about
cover letters, so I'lltransition this over to you, but
can you share some foundationalelements that are crucial for.
An effective cover letter, notjust in career transitions, but
(22:32):
in general.
There should be something that'sconveyed.
What is that and how do you doit right?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (22:38):
So I will answer the question you
actually asked me.
I want to pull the lens backjust a minute and say Your cover
letter is a part of theprofessional wardrobe you have
on the job hunt.
begins with your CVR resume,which tells as much of your
history as you're gonna give ahiring manager.
(22:59):
The cover letter should notreiterate.
Your resume or curriculum vitaebecause you've already put that
piece of the library together,that piece of the wardrobe, your
cover letter is a story.
It should be chronologically,sensical.
It should make sense.
It should also engage thereader.
(23:21):
It should address any uniqueexperiences or gaps in your
resume or cv.
In a way that the hiring managercan say, oh, that's why they
made that change.
That's what that gap year wasabout.
That's really interesting.
I wanna know more about thisperson.
It's your chance to tell astory.
(23:42):
And so I focus on the coverletter as being the narrative
about how you land in the lap ofthe hiring manager, and that's
not the right term to use, buthow you land before them.
Looking at you as a potentialcandidate for the job I used to
say, how did you get into thechair in the interview room?
(24:05):
Tell me the story that got youhere.
We now do interviews over Zoom,or you might not even get
interviewed till you've beenscreened and your cover letters.
What gets you past the screen,the combination of your cover
letter and your resume or cv.
The whole goal of those twodocuments is to get you in front
of a live person for aninterview.
(24:25):
Okay.
Then the third part of yourprofessional wardrobe is what
you say in the first fiveminutes of an interview.
That can be a different questionif you want to go there, but
that's how I look at a coverletter.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_1053 (24:36):
Let's stay on cover letters, it's a
great place to explain.
Those gaps or if there's nogaps, the best thing you can do
with a cover letter is directlytell a company how you hope to
help them and how your skillscan do something unique for
them.
How do you succinctly tell astory, make sense of it, justify
it, and do that?
(24:57):
In my opinion, you need to beable to do that in four
sentences most, because youcould have the cure for
everything bad on earth.
If it takes up a page on a coverletter, a recruiter's just not
gonna read it.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (25:09):
So the first thing I think is to
set a reasonable page limit onyour cover letter.
And I think it's academia is adifferent place.
So let me set that aside.
We can talk about that if youwant, but in the corporate
world, a page to a page and ahalf is sufficient.
That's my experience.
You might have a differentopinion and I'm happy to hear
about it.
(25:30):
But you gotta keep it succinctand I suggest to people write
your opening statement.
Write your closing statement andthen give me three to four
bullet points that become thefirst sentence of each
paragraph, but they got tostring together in a narrative
arc like your English teachertaught you in high school.
You gotta tell a story and it'sgonna have a fast arc that you
(25:54):
can get through the drama.
This is not a play, this is notthe drama.
It really is.
Tell me the short story.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (26:02):
I'm gonna put myself in the shoes of
a young recruiter that has athousand applications to look
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (26:07):
Yes.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (26:07):
very limited time.
Even if they wanted to read thewhole Letter.
They just can't you work inhealthcare and you took time off
to take care of a family member.
Say, this is my calling.
To care for people.
And so that's what I did.
That's why I chose to step awayfrom this role example of tying
into the industry and thecompany's purpose.
(26:28):
That's going to be hardsometimes if you work for a
company that makes energydrinks.
A Red Bull might not care aboutthat calling, but.
You used the word narrative Withtheir narrative and making sense
of this for them In a short wayis important.
Because if it's just a story Idon't, I'm not saying this from
a place of a lack of empathy,but I just Got a bunch to get
through and how does this helpme?
(26:50):
How does this help me fill therole in the next two weeks?
Because someone's putting a lotof pressure on me.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (26:54):
This comes down to a couple of tips I
will add about cover letters.
Number one, you should not havea standard cover letter for
every job you have to make thehook.
You have to be succinct, but ifyou have done those five Hipp
pocket questions and you askwhat matters to this
organization, for everyorganization you're gonna send a
(27:15):
cover letter to.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (27:16):
I love that.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (27:17):
if you took time off to care for
someone who is ill and you workin healthcare, say, I now bring
to my work in this industry theperspective of a patient and a
caregiver, and that isinvaluable as you plan for
future product offerings orservice delivery items.
(27:37):
Make that kind of connection.
If you work for Red Bull, youmight say, I learned how to use
your product to stay awakehealthily long enough to do what
I needed to do and I ampassionate about your product.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (27:52):
I
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (27:52):
That might be a stretch for Red Bull
'cause I am a family doc and Idon't want people to go drink
enough Red Bull to stay awakefor four days.
But it's an example of how youtie in to what matters to the
company.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10 (28:02):
There's confusion about a CV versus
resumes When should someone usea CV versus a resume, or are
there distinctions between thetwo?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (28:12):
I do think there are distinctions
between the two.
A CV typically describes thekind of career that has multiple
components and most commonlyused in academia.
In that setting, people want toknow about your academic
history, your job history, your.
Research history, yourleadership history, and a CV is
(28:36):
a document that gives you roomto do that.
I have seen CVS as short asthree or four pages and as long
as 60.
I'm not a proponent of a 60 pagedocument going to a hiring
manager, but some academicinstitutions expect that.
A resume is rarely more than oneto two pages.
It really is cut to the chase ofwhat your skillset is and what
(29:00):
kind of job you're looking for,and tie the two together.
I think they have differentpurposes.
Different industries expectdifferent things, and so knowing
what your industry expects tosee, I wouldn't submit a two
page resume if I were applyingfor a department chair position
In an academic institution, itwon't get you there.
(29:20):
But conversely, I wouldn't putin a 30 page CV for a corporate
leadership job.
They're not gonna read it.
They're gonna think you reallydon't understand the industry if
that's what you do.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (29:31):
Do you have any stories of job
seekers that maybe felt lostdidn't have a purpose or a path
and once working through yourbook, found that.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (29:42):
What I would say is that the tools in
the book I've used with four or500 people at very different
stages of careers, life needs,their top 10 lists were
different, but the thing that'sreally rewarding is to watch a
human really take a look attheir life and say, how do I use
my life energy to create.
(30:03):
What I want.
That's where the subtitle of theBespoke Life comes in.
The best stories I probablyhave.
I have a person that I workedwith who had two small children
and was working in a very highlevel leadership job, and her
children were just very upsetthat she was not at home.
(30:24):
And so we coached a bit aboutthat and she decided to ask
them.
At, a relatively young age oflike middle school, what matters
to you?
What matters to you about mebeing home and one of her
children said, I just want to goout to lunch or dinner with you
(30:44):
by just the two of us once aweek or once every two weeks.
That would be enough.
The other child said, you knowwhat, mom?
I just don't wanna be the lastperson picked up an aftercare at
school.
And all of a sudden she cameback, she said, I cried when I
realized how little it wouldtake to do that.
And I realized I actually couldmake the shift.
(31:07):
And she did.
And she put it in place to havedinner with her one child every
week, just the two of them.
And at least two to three nightsa week, the other child was not.
The last child picked up and itchanged that family.
So that's probably one of mymost fun stories to share.
I've seen a lot of people decideto change careers or change
(31:29):
industries.
I've seen people plan aretirement that wasn't a
retirement, but really a renewfor them, move to a different
industry.
I'll share one more story.
I had the, good fortune tofollow someone in my career who
had been at the job for 30 yearsand as he was getting ready to
(31:50):
leave, we asked him what he wasgonna do with his time, and none
of us really realized that hehad spent years.
In community theater and hesaid, what matters to me is I
want my Screen Actor's Guildcard within the year, and I want
a Hollywood movie part.
It's the last thing any of usthought about him.
And by golly, he accomplishedit.
(32:12):
He got his SAG card and he got asmall part in a well-known
movie.
And I just look at that as themeasure of success for shifting
gears after one career andmaking another.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_1053 (32:25):
We'll link to that.
Book in this episode'sdescription.
How else can listeners connectwith you and learn more about
what you do?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1 (32:34):
The best place for them to learn
more about what we do is at mywebsite www.metasolutions.com.
Meta has two t's.
That's the reason I articulatethat.
It is that website hasinformation about our.
Coaching work.
It has a link to the book.
It has a blog where we put outnew content on a pretty regular
(32:55):
basis, and it has an invitationto our online community, which
is free and open to people whowant to explore what it means to
have a bespoke life, have thelife that maximizes what's
important to you.
As balanced away as we can.
One of my favorite quotes fromthe i, I quote a friend of mine,
(33:17):
a mentor of mine in the book,and it really is a summary
statement, personal andprofessional, it's all one life.
We have a finite amount of lifeenergy.
How we spend it is up to us.
And that to me is the message ofhope.
Even if you are stuck in whatseems like an endless series of
interviews, you.
(33:38):
Do have choices.
They may not be apparent, but ifyou start by saying what really
matters here, and then how do Iget more of it?
I'll say what my coach alwayssaid at the end of a session, I
like your chances.
If you are feeling self-doubt about
the next step in your career, ifyou're struggling with
transitioning pivoting to a newrole, a new industry, a new
skillset.
Or maybe you lack clarity onwhat you're doing.
Is there a game plan day by day?
How quickly is time going topass without things changing?
(00:20):
Dr.
Sharon Hole is here to bringdirection.
We're going to dig into how tomake things happen, like career
transitions, making a plan forwhat to do next, and of course,
getting there, whether it bestrategizing, cover letters,
adding intention to resumes.
And proven tools for careertransition.
Dr.
(00:40):
Sharon Hole is the founder ofMeta Solutions, an academic
professional with 35 years ofexperience and over 13 years as
an effective executive coach.
She has successfully coachedover.
450 clients dedicating thousandsof hours to career planning job
search strategies, andnavigating professional
(01:04):
transitions.
Sharon's background includes anextensive career as a family
physician with roles in solorural practice, academic
medicine, and administrativeleadership.
She's also the author ofProfessional Careers by Design,
A handbook for the Bespoke Life,which guides readers through
(01:24):
career changes from training toretirement and encore careers.
Sharon is passionate abouthelping individuals just like
you achieve their personal andprofessional goals.
Sharon, welcome to the jobinterview experience.
dr--sharon-hull--she-h (01:39):
Matthew, it is great to be here with you
and with your audience.
Thank you for the opportunity.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (01:44):
Many listeners struggle with
self-doubt maybe day to daythroughout their entire lives,
but if they're listening to thispodcast, they are.
Trying to figure out how topivot within maybe the company
they're at, gain a promotion oreven just get a job in general.
Maybe they have been on the jobmarket for a while.
Things aren't moving as quicklyor in the direction that they
(02:06):
want.
With that self-doubt, can youshare techniques you've used to
help clients overcome doubt andtake action?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (02:16):
Sure.
And Matthew, I'm really gladthat you framed it the way you
did because it's so easy in thisjob market or in the process of
interviewing wherever you are inthat journey.
This can be very stressful andit can cause people to lose
hope.
And my goal with the book, mygoal with this conversation is
(02:37):
to help people know that thereis.
A way to fall back on whatmatters to you, make those
decisions, and even when thechoices before you don't seem
very great, you can make thebest choice you've got in the
circumstances you find yourself.
So that's where I hope we get totalk today.
You asked me to sharestrategies.
(02:59):
I think what I'll do is startwith just saying that question,
what matters most to you rightnow at this season of your life
is really a bedrock question formaking decisions.
Even in tough times, and itmight seem really simplistic,
but the idea of saying whatmatters to me is it that I need
(03:20):
to.
Have a job and have a paycheck.
Is it that I want to get out ofa toxic situation or into a
better situation financially orin terms of moving up the
career, the proverbial careerladder, whatever the reason for
thinking about changing,starting with what matters right
now is a great place to startand I can elaborate on that, but
(03:42):
I will give you a shot atresponding first.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (03:44):
When we think about what matters,
what comes to mind for me isprioritizing, In different times
in life, it might be having funwith friends, going out, uh,
living the adventure.
And then oftentimes as we growprofessionally and in our
personal lives, I.
A lot of those priorities shiftaway from us in certain ways,
whether it's caring for family,whether that be parents,
(04:06):
grandparents, or children.
How do we balance these thingsand our professional goals and
the sacrifices we have to maketo get there?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her (04:15):
That's where this, I have what I call
the hip pocket questions.
It's really five questions toask yourself and those around
you.
It starts with what matters toyou.
And the way that I ask people tothink about that question is to
imagine writing a top 10 list ofthe things that matter.
You don't even have toprioritize them at the
beginning, just write them down.
(04:38):
And I tell people, your list hasto include some personal and
some professional things, butthere's no right ratio.
You just have to be attentive toboth.
So make your list of those top10 things and then.
Put them in a priority order foryou as if you're the only one
who has to answer that question.
(04:59):
Then you ask yourself, who aremy stakeholders?
Who are the people that if Idon't have a job or if I take a
job overseas would be reallyimpacted by the decisions that
I'm making?
Those are your stakeholders.
They are often, but not always,a spouse with significant other.
Sometime it's always yourchildren if you have them, but
(05:22):
the degree of involvement thatthey have in the decision
varies.
And sometimes there are otherstakeholders.
I have coached clients whoreally didn't wanna leave a
strong friend community or astrong faith community.
And so whatever matters to you.
Ask yourself, who matters to menext?
And then go ask those people ifthey are of anything approaching
(05:45):
an adult age.
Ask them what matters to them.
Ask them to make their own top10 list independent of you.
And don't compare notes tillyou've both or all done your
list.
So those are the first twoquestions.
What matters most to me?
What matters most to mystakeholders?
And then ask yourself if you'recurrently employed, what matters
(06:07):
to my current organization ifyou're not currently employed,
but interviewing what matters tothe organization or
organizations that I'minterviewing with?
Their list is not gonna be thesame as yours.
Neither is your stakeholderslist, by the way.
But you start saying, what's thepriority of the organization I'm
hoping to work with?
Then you ask question four, isthere alignment between my list,
(06:31):
my stakeholders list, theorganizational lists of the
organizations I'm thinking aboutleaving or going to?
And the fifth question is, ifthere is not alignment, what do
I want to do about it?
What am I able to do about it?
And if there is really goodalignment.
How do I wanna stay here andthrive?
(06:52):
So that's a quick run through myfive hipp pocket questions, and
I'll toss it back to you forwhatever you'd like to dig into
from there.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (07:00):
Of course, there's no right answers
or wrong answers here.
I'm curious if you've identifiedpatterns with clients that
you've worked on these lists ofand what you've learned from
those patterns.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (07:12):
I have identified patterns, and
what's fascinating to me is whatmy clients learn.
I'm learning the patterns, butthey're learning what it means
to them, right?
So some common things I seeearly in a career as you were
talking in the intro sometimesour choices really get to focus
on us.
If we don't have a lot of otherstakeholder responsibilities, it
may be the time that we chooseto travel and be a digital
(07:34):
nomad.
It may be that we can't do thatfor some reason, but early in
the career, there is a lot offocus on advancement.
There's a lot of focus onbuilding skills.
And frankly I'm in the boomergeneration, so when our younger
colleagues look at boomers andsay, okay, boomer, that's me.
They're talking to, I'm tryingto learn from them because
(07:57):
they've got this idea that Ithink we older folks could
benefit from.
They know something about whatmatters to them and they're
going after it faster than wedid.
I think that's a good thing.
And what I would, the reason Ibrought that up is that.
They're asking the questions andearly career people are more
(08:20):
facile with those questions.
They're more attuned to whatmatters to them.
What I see in mid-career ispeople are beginning to get
overwhelmed by the sheer volumeof work they have to do.
And frankly, if they are goingto build a family, that's the
time that's often happening andchildcare.
Or dual career couples will.
(08:42):
And I guess what I would sayabout that is the priority
shift.
It's not just about, oh, I cango be a digital nomad and work
from Thailand, or I can live thevan life and go do all around
the country.
That's great.
But there's a time and a seasonfor some people where they
can't, what I see in.
(09:03):
Mid-career to senior career isthat the caretaking
responsibilities often straddlegenerations.
There may be folks caretakingchildren and parents, or other
loved ones, and the demandschange on our time and our
seniority changes and what wecare about changes.
(09:23):
There is a constant pattern thatI see though, that I wanna share
with you when I ask people tomake their top 10 list and then
rank.
Order the things that matter andthen come back and tell me what
they learned.
Do you know?
Here's the most common thingthey say to me.
It stuns me that my first seventhings are personal, not
(09:46):
professional.
And that has been a responseI've gotten from people at all
stages of career.
And it just opens up what Ithink our younger colleagues are
saying is life is not all workand it's not all professional
ladder climbing.
So it's a really powerfulexercise and you can't do it
(10:06):
wrong.
So that's the other bit ofencouragement I'll give people.
Just make your top 10 list.
And if you can't get to 10, doseven.
Do whatever you can come upwith, but just make sure you
have personal and professionalthings on the list.
Thanks for letting me go onabout that for a minute.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (10:23):
If we do 10 questions and seven are
personal, and that's thepattern, I'd be 70%, If those
are the priorities how much ofthat are they living out?
If 70% is personal, are theystill giving 90% to
professional?
Where's the stress come from?
What ruins your day or nights orwhat causes the stress in your
life?
And my guess would be that'spretty unbalanced for most
(10:43):
people.
Their heart is 70% in thepersonal, but their life is
dominated by the professional.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (10:51):
I think that's a really astute
question, Matthew, and I'mreally glad you asked it because
it sets up the tension betweenpersonal and professional that
we have spoken about for yearsas work life balance or work
life alignment, and the realityis.
It's very rare that people arecompletely balanced in terms of
(11:11):
where their heart is and wheretheir profession calls them to
be if they want to besuccessful.
And so a lot of what we do incoaching is coaching around that
tension.
And the way that I encouragepeople to think about it is,
okay, you have your top 10 listin whatever order your heart put
down.
Is there a pressure from any oneof these things that is time
(11:34):
bound or that is really about, Ihave to get this done before I
get to X, so I gotta focus thereeven though I want to focus on
these other things.
So where's the tension?
And then.
You step back and look at thelist as a whole and say, how
could you organize your life andyour work to get more of those
(11:56):
things than you have now?
You very rarely are people goingto tell me they have, they would
rate themselves 10 out of 10 oneverything in their top 10
priority list.
I don't think I've ever seenthat.
I've never experienced itpersonally, and I think it's a,
not the realistic goal.
The goal for that list is it'syour touchstone.
(12:21):
It's the thing you come back towhen you're not sure what to do.
Start with that inventory andthen say, how could I get more
of these things?
And is there anything that has atime bound pressure to it?
So it's a great question.
I don't think we ever get fullybalanced.
This is a tool.
It's not the end point.
matthew_1_06-28-202 (12:42):
Traditional long-term career plans.
Have become outdated.
The old plans were rigid and nowwhether we like it or not, we
have to be flexible.
Make that choice by leaving ortaking, other jobs, promoting
ourselves by accepting outsideoffers, but seems like we now
have to be adaptable andflexible whether we like it or
(13:02):
not.
are some ways to do that andmake a career plan around
knowing that whether you want toor not, you're probably not
gonna be able to be at a companyfor 15 years.
I.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (13:12):
I think you've just hit on a real
shift in the way that peopleview work in Western society
over the last 50 years.
When I was growing up, when myparents were working, the idea
was you would get a job, youwould stay there for 30 or 40
years, get your retirement, getyour defined benefit pension,
and I.
Have a period of your life whereyou didn't work.
(13:34):
I think this is where ouryounger colleagues are saying to
us, that doesn't work anymore.
People in the generationsyounger than me watch their
parents lose their jobs and nothave any corporate loyalty.
If they're old enough toremember the 1980s and that
economic downturn, or theeconomic downturn in the 2008
(13:56):
era, or what happened in thepandemic.
Folks are realizing that theloyalty that 40 year commitment
required of employees isn'treturned by companies.
'cause companies may not last 40years anymore.
The pace of change is very fast,and that's, I think, a big
(14:17):
difference even in the last 10years, but certainly in the last
20.
Which is why I tell people it'shard to have a three, five, or
10 year career plan because wecan't even see three months
around the corner to know what'scoming in three months.
So we have to have analternative strategy that starts
with, okay, what really mattershere?
(14:37):
How do I get more of thosethings?
And then what do I have to putinto operation to get a way to
make a living that aligns withwhat matters to me?
So you ask what I think is botha generational and a societal
question, and it's a practicalquestion because I don't think
those 30 or 40 year jobs are outthere very much anymore.
(15:01):
I know the defined benefitpensions are not, and I just
think people have to adapt tothe world of work as it.
Is going to be not what it hasbeen.
I'll tell you that in writing mybook I started writing it during
the pandemic, but I've beengathering, information for it
(15:21):
for 10 or 12 years.
And during the pandemic, Iwatched the pace of change
accelerate.
It's oh, people need a differentway to look at this.
And that's when it becameapparent to me that I needed to
take this model of, you have atouchstone.
You have a set of tactics youcan do when you're in the job
(15:44):
transition, and you have to takethe long view of what's the
lifetime plan for your career,not just this job.
I don't know if that's what youwanted me to lead toward, but
that's where my brain went.
matthew_1_06-28-202 (15:58):
Identifying the right time for a career
shift is challenging, but fromwhat you and I have discussed so
far.
Being able to do so seemsimportant, whether it be by
analyzing what's going on inyour life, prioritizing and
realizing that there's too muchtension, Maybe you lose a job,
maybe your industry starts todisappear.
(16:18):
It could be many things.
What are some key signs thatmight indicate for our listeners
that they need to make a careertransition or start planning to
do so?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (16:29):
I think the first thing is to ask
yourself what's happening in theenvironment around you?
Does the organization thatyou're working with seem stable?
Is there a lot of turnover?
Is there an industry spanningchange that's happening?
Those can all be signals thatit's time to have.
(16:50):
An alternative plan.
The other thing, there are twotools in my book that I think
are really useful to, to thinkabout for this question.
The first is what I call thestay go grid.
It's basically draw a two by twotable or a four box square and
you label the two columns.
Stay and go.
You label the two rows, surviveand thrive.
(17:13):
Ask yourself which box you'rein.
Are you in stay and thrive, oryou've got your head down
staying and surviving till youcan figure out a plan.
Do you have a toxic boss youhave to leave to survive, or are
you looking for betteropportunities and you need to go
in order to really thrive?
(17:34):
That little exercise of justwhich box are you in can help
you think about how urgent isthe need to change and.
What might it look like for meto thrive?
So that's one tool.
The other tool I have clientsuse is what I call the four Es.
There are people could come upwith probably five or six other
(17:55):
E's, but I'll give you my four.
They're things that we get fromour job.
I happen to make a list that allstarted with E, so those ees are
education.
I'm learning something new.
I'm building a new skill.
That's worth staying for maybe.
The next thing is experience.
I'm getting experience doingsomething new that will help me
(18:18):
not only in this job, but maybein the next one.
The third is exposure.
I'm getting visibility.
I'm being seen doing this,having this skill, building this
expertise, leading in this way.
That's exposure.
The fourth E is enthusiasm.
I still love to get up and go dothis job every day.
(18:39):
Now, most of us don't have allfour ees for very long at any
given time, but if we've got twoor three, we're probably on that
stay and Thrive grid unlesswe've got a toxic boss.
If you find yourself having oneor zero, that's probably a good
time to look.
(19:00):
So those are two tools that Iuse a lot with clients to say,
is it time to look?
I am curious what else you hearfrom your audience about how
they do it?
What are the questions they'reasking?
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:13):
I hear a lot of emotion
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (19:15):
Yeah.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:16):
it, and of course, obvious answers
would be fear
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (19:19):
Yes.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (19:20):
the jumping into the unknown.
The other is time, right?
How long is it gonna take me tobecome adept in a new role or
industry to learn the jargon,but it's a lot of emotion, I
think, on leaving.
A good boss or a good company,something that has worked well
for you has helped pay thebills.
And I think that there iscorporate loyalty and then
(19:41):
emotional loyalty, and there'sprobably some other types as
well.
Corporate loyalty I think istransactional.
You've been good to me for awhile, but now you aren't.
And so now I'm not.
Or maybe I see the writing onthe walls of this company is
going under, so I have to beloyal to me.
That's, I'd say that's morecorporate or, or transactional.
And there's the emotional side.
I like my boss.
(20:02):
My boss took care of me.
This personal life eventhappened and my manager looked
out for me, gave me the time offI needed or whatever.
I think that's where people havetrouble because they don't know.
Whether it be a new company, anew industry wide culture of
maybe a industry is morecutthroat or maybe it's more
working hours.
(20:22):
That's what I see from listenersand the concerns that they have.
Will I fit?
In this industry, I know I cando the things.
I know I have the skills thatwill transition, but how will
this fit with me?
Because things seem to alignwith me personally in my current
role, industry company type.
That's what I've seen most of.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her- (20:44):
Okay.
I asked you a question, which isnot the way this is supposed to
go, but it gives me a way tojump off from what you're
hearing from your listeners.
I think there's an additionaltype of loyalty, and I think
you're spot on in terms ofdescribing the transactional
loyalty and the emotionalloyalty.
I think there's also a loyaltyto our.
Goals, a loyalty to ouraspirations.
(21:07):
And this is where I think gen X,gen Z, millennials.
Got it better than the boomersdid that.
Okay.
Look, if I'm not gonna build anew skill here and I've topped
out on what I can do, I gotta beloyal to the long game, and I
gotta go find a place I canlearn a new skill in the same
job, family, or in a differentindustry completely so that I
(21:30):
can maximize the long-termsuccess of my career, not just
for one job.
The shift is that people arethinking more long term about
what's the portfolio of skillsthey're building and experience
they're getting, and that Iwould think of that in your
framework as a loyalty toaspirations.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (21:50):
Of the ways to help facilitate a
career transition is a coverletter.
If used correctly, I think CoverLetter is a great place to make
sense of why I am applying from.
X industry to y industry what?
A company how the skills youhave may be eliminate wine spots
(22:11):
in their Or your exposure tothings that they may not see can
give them a competitiveadvantage.
I don't want to spend the next20 minutes of me talking about
cover letters, so I'lltransition this over to you, but
can you share some foundationalelements that are crucial for.
An effective cover letter, notjust in career transitions, but
(22:32):
in general.
There should be something that'sconveyed.
What is that and how do you doit right?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (22:38):
So I will answer the question you
actually asked me.
I want to pull the lens backjust a minute and say Your cover
letter is a part of theprofessional wardrobe you have
on the job hunt.
begins with your CVR resume,which tells as much of your
history as you're gonna give ahiring manager.
(22:59):
The cover letter should notreiterate.
Your resume or curriculum vitaebecause you've already put that
piece of the library together,that piece of the wardrobe, your
cover letter is a story.
It should be chronologically,sensical.
It should make sense.
It should also engage thereader.
(23:21):
It should address any uniqueexperiences or gaps in your
resume or cv.
In a way that the hiring managercan say, oh, that's why they
made that change.
That's what that gap year wasabout.
That's really interesting.
I wanna know more about thisperson.
It's your chance to tell astory.
(23:42):
And so I focus on the coverletter as being the narrative
about how you land in the lap ofthe hiring manager, and that's
not the right term to use, buthow you land before them.
Looking at you as a potentialcandidate for the job I used to
say, how did you get into thechair in the interview room?
(24:05):
Tell me the story that got youhere.
We now do interviews over Zoom,or you might not even get
interviewed till you've beenscreened and your cover letters.
What gets you past the screen,the combination of your cover
letter and your resume or cv.
The whole goal of those twodocuments is to get you in front
of a live person for aninterview.
(24:25):
Okay.
Then the third part of yourprofessional wardrobe is what
you say in the first fiveminutes of an interview.
That can be a different questionif you want to go there, but
that's how I look at a coverletter.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_1053 (24:36):
Let's stay on cover letters, it's a
great place to explain.
Those gaps or if there's nogaps, the best thing you can do
with a cover letter is directlytell a company how you hope to
help them and how your skillscan do something unique for
them.
How do you succinctly tell astory, make sense of it, justify
it, and do that?
(24:57):
In my opinion, you need to beable to do that in four
sentences most, because youcould have the cure for
everything bad on earth.
If it takes up a page on a coverletter, a recruiter's just not
gonna read it.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (25:09):
So the first thing I think is to
set a reasonable page limit onyour cover letter.
And I think it's academia is adifferent place.
So let me set that aside.
We can talk about that if youwant, but in the corporate
world, a page to a page and ahalf is sufficient.
That's my experience.
You might have a differentopinion and I'm happy to hear
about it.
(25:30):
But you gotta keep it succinctand I suggest to people write
your opening statement.
Write your closing statement andthen give me three to four
bullet points that become thefirst sentence of each
paragraph, but they got tostring together in a narrative
arc like your English teachertaught you in high school.
You gotta tell a story and it'sgonna have a fast arc that you
(25:54):
can get through the drama.
This is not a play, this is notthe drama.
It really is.
Tell me the short story.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (26:02):
I'm gonna put myself in the shoes of
a young recruiter that has athousand applications to look
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (26:07):
Yes.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10535 (26:07):
very limited time.
Even if they wanted to read thewhole Letter.
They just can't you work inhealthcare and you took time off
to take care of a family member.
Say, this is my calling.
To care for people.
And so that's what I did.
That's why I chose to step awayfrom this role example of tying
into the industry and thecompany's purpose.
(26:28):
That's going to be hardsometimes if you work for a
company that makes energydrinks.
A Red Bull might not care aboutthat calling, but.
You used the word narrative Withtheir narrative and making sense
of this for them In a short wayis important.
Because if it's just a story Idon't, I'm not saying this from
a place of a lack of empathy,but I just Got a bunch to get
through and how does this helpme?
(26:50):
How does this help me fill therole in the next two weeks?
Because someone's putting a lotof pressure on me.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (26:54):
This comes down to a couple of tips I
will add about cover letters.
Number one, you should not havea standard cover letter for
every job you have to make thehook.
You have to be succinct, but ifyou have done those five Hipp
pocket questions and you askwhat matters to this
organization, for everyorganization you're gonna send a
(27:15):
cover letter to.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (27:16):
I love that.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_ (27:17):
if you took time off to care for
someone who is ill and you workin healthcare, say, I now bring
to my work in this industry theperspective of a patient and a
caregiver, and that isinvaluable as you plan for
future product offerings orservice delivery items.
(27:37):
Make that kind of connection.
If you work for Red Bull, youmight say, I learned how to use
your product to stay awakehealthily long enough to do what
I needed to do and I ampassionate about your product.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (27:52):
I
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (27:52):
That might be a stretch for Red Bull
'cause I am a family doc and Idon't want people to go drink
enough Red Bull to stay awakefor four days.
But it's an example of how youtie in to what matters to the
company.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_10 (28:02):
There's confusion about a CV versus
resumes When should someone usea CV versus a resume, or are
there distinctions between thetwo?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1_0 (28:12):
I do think there are distinctions
between the two.
A CV typically describes thekind of career that has multiple
components and most commonlyused in academia.
In that setting, people want toknow about your academic
history, your job history, your.
Research history, yourleadership history, and a CV is
(28:36):
a document that gives you roomto do that.
I have seen CVS as short asthree or four pages and as long
as 60.
I'm not a proponent of a 60 pagedocument going to a hiring
manager, but some academicinstitutions expect that.
A resume is rarely more than oneto two pages.
It really is cut to the chase ofwhat your skillset is and what
(29:00):
kind of job you're looking for,and tie the two together.
I think they have differentpurposes.
Different industries expectdifferent things, and so knowing
what your industry expects tosee, I wouldn't submit a two
page resume if I were applyingfor a department chair position
In an academic institution, itwon't get you there.
(29:20):
But conversely, I wouldn't putin a 30 page CV for a corporate
leadership job.
They're not gonna read it.
They're gonna think you reallydon't understand the industry if
that's what you do.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_105357 (29:31):
Do you have any stories of job
seekers that maybe felt lostdidn't have a purpose or a path
and once working through yourbook, found that.
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_ (29:42):
What I would say is that the tools in
the book I've used with four or500 people at very different
stages of careers, life needs,their top 10 lists were
different, but the thing that'sreally rewarding is to watch a
human really take a look attheir life and say, how do I use
my life energy to create.
(30:03):
What I want.
That's where the subtitle of theBespoke Life comes in.
The best stories I probablyhave.
I have a person that I workedwith who had two small children
and was working in a very highlevel leadership job, and her
children were just very upsetthat she was not at home.
(30:24):
And so we coached a bit aboutthat and she decided to ask
them.
At, a relatively young age oflike middle school, what matters
to you?
What matters to you about mebeing home and one of her
children said, I just want to goout to lunch or dinner with you
(30:44):
by just the two of us once aweek or once every two weeks.
That would be enough.
The other child said, you knowwhat, mom?
I just don't wanna be the lastperson picked up an aftercare at
school.
And all of a sudden she cameback, she said, I cried when I
realized how little it wouldtake to do that.
And I realized I actually couldmake the shift.
(31:07):
And she did.
And she put it in place to havedinner with her one child every
week, just the two of them.
And at least two to three nightsa week, the other child was not.
The last child picked up and itchanged that family.
So that's probably one of mymost fun stories to share.
I've seen a lot of people decideto change careers or change
(31:29):
industries.
I've seen people plan aretirement that wasn't a
retirement, but really a renewfor them, move to a different
industry.
I'll share one more story.
I had the, good fortune tofollow someone in my career who
had been at the job for 30 yearsand as he was getting ready to
(31:50):
leave, we asked him what he wasgonna do with his time, and none
of us really realized that hehad spent years.
In community theater and hesaid, what matters to me is I
want my Screen Actor's Guildcard within the year, and I want
a Hollywood movie part.
It's the last thing any of usthought about him.
And by golly, he accomplishedit.
(32:12):
He got his SAG card and he got asmall part in a well-known
movie.
And I just look at that as themeasure of success for shifting
gears after one career andmaking another.
matthew_1_06-28-2024_1053 (32:25):
We'll link to that.
Book in this episode'sdescription.
How else can listeners connectwith you and learn more about
what you do?
dr--sharon-hull--she-her-_1 (32:34):
The best place for them to learn
more about what we do is at mywebsite www.metasolutions.com.
Meta has two t's.
That's the reason I articulatethat.
It is that website hasinformation about our.
Coaching work.
It has a link to the book.
It has a blog where we put outnew content on a pretty regular
(32:55):
basis, and it has an invitationto our online community, which
is free and open to people whowant to explore what it means to
have a bespoke life, have thelife that maximizes what's
important to you.
As balanced away as we can.
One of my favorite quotes fromthe i, I quote a friend of mine,
(33:17):
a mentor of mine in the book,and it really is a summary
statement, personal andprofessional, it's all one life.
We have a finite amount of lifeenergy.
How we spend it is up to us.
And that to me is the message ofhope.
Even if you are stuck in whatseems like an endless series of
interviews, you.
(33:38):
Do have choices.
They may not be apparent, but ifyou start by saying what really
matters here, and then how do Iget more of it?
I'll say what my coach alwayssaid at the end of a session, I
like your chances.
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