December 8, 2020 • 29 mins
In the inaugural episode of MSCHE's Pillars of Change, Dr. Davie Gilmour, President of Pennsylvania College of Technology and Vice-Chair of the Middle States Commission on Higher Education interviews Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner, President of SUNY Buffalo State, who also serves as an MSCHE Executive Committee member.
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Music (00:15):
[inaudible]
Dr. Davie Gilmour (00:16):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommission on Higher Education.
I'm Dr.
Davie Gilmour, president of thePennsylvania College of
Technology and vice chair of theMiddle States Commission on
Higher Education.
I'd like to thank you forjoining me for the first of a
series of podcasts, focusing onthe topics of diversity, equity,
(00:40):
and inclusion.
Perhaps there are no more recenttopics that have generated as
much energy and conversationssuch as those.
And most importantly, a need forconversation and change.
Over the course of its history,the identity of the Middle
States Commission on HigherEducation has been closely
(01:01):
aligned with assuring trust andinstilling confidence in higher
education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions.
Encouraging institutional changehas never been more important
(01:24):
than it is today whereinstitutional actions, policies,
or procedures may reveal thedisparate impact on an
increasingly diverse studentpopulation.
For institutions that share theresults of deep and thoughtful
self-reflection the Commissionsupports and applauds their
(01:45):
efforts because the commissionrecognizes that it holds an
important voice and space withinthe higher education community.
It has launched this podcastseries to spotlight highly
effective institutionalpractices that have made a
difference in the lives of ourstudents through diversity,
equity, and inclusioninitiatives.
(02:08):
Today, we are talking with Dr.
Katherine Conway-Turner,President of SUNY Buffalo State,
who also serves as acommissioner with the Middle
States Commission on HigherEducation and chair of the board
of the National Campus Compactamong numerous other
affiliations.
Kate, who was recentlyrecognized by Buffalo Business
(02:29):
First with the 2020 Woman ofInfluence Life Achievement Award
is regarded for pushing thecollege's vision for diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
Welcome Kate.
T hank you questions.
My first question for you todayis what is your sense of race,
(02:49):
diversity, and inclusion in ourcountry today?
U m, our country is, u m, morediverse than
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (03:00):
Has ever been in, uh, through its
inception.
Uh, and of course we know ashigher education educators that
our student bodies are morediverse than ever before.
Um, this has beenwell-documented in many, many
reports and the recent ACPE, uh,race, ethnicity, and higher
education report of 2019 and2020 certainly reminded us of
(03:23):
how important it is tounderstand the diversity of our
campuses.
So when I think about the senseof race, diversity, and
inclusion today, I have to firstbegin to think about how diverse
our communities really are andhow diverse many of our campuses
are today, but it's clear thatissues of race, um, diversity
(03:48):
inclusion are quite contested inlots of ways.
That it is not just about thenumbers, is not just about the
obvious diversity, but it reallymeans different things to
different people.
So for some the issues of, uh,of a highly diverse community
really points to the richness ofdiversity and importance of
(04:09):
diversity in our campuses andsomething to be really
celebrated and something toreally help us understand how
important the connections areacross many different groups.
However, for others, it meansmore of a sense of otherness, uh
, an opportunity to marginalizepeople, um, a sense of putting
people on a hierarchy so thatsome people are better than
(04:31):
others.
And so we know that it just hasa really different meaning, uh,
with different, differentpeople.
Uh, historically this countryhas had an opportunity to
embrace diversity, but hasfailed to do it in lots of ways.
And we've seen it with multipledifferent groups over different
(04:52):
years, who the other is, who thenegative stereotypes are focused
at, um, and how that some peoplehave just never been able to
break into some of theadvantages that this country
has.
And so the, we know that'sreally been very, very difficult
for us, but the reality is thatin our day-to-day lives, that
(05:15):
diverse people come together inall kinds of ways in the
workforce, you know, and oursocial life in our communities.
And so that the notion of notcelebrating diversity and seeing
people as in some negativestereotypic way is a
disadvantage for, um, ourcountry or for our schools, for
(05:36):
our communities.
And so, um, it is reallysomething to, to really grapple
with.
And then the sense of inclusionis what does it mean to be
really inclusive?
It means more than just bringingpeople into whatever network
you're talking about, but dothey have voice?
Do they have opportunity?
You know, are they listened to,and, and can they share their
(05:58):
perspectives in a way that itmakes a difference?
And so, so, so I, I feel that intoday's world, um, that we've
come a ways that not as far aswe wished we had come, and that
may be somewhat of a surprisefor some.
Maybe, but not for me.
And maybe not that great for youas well.
(06:21):
Um, this difference of seeingdisparities between, uh, people
of color and people that arecharacteristic characterize as
white is not new.
As a girl in the seventies, itwas on the front pages there.
And certainly, you know, if welook back to the sixties and the
fifties and the forties, it wasthere, and really you'd go back
all the way and you can find, um, historical legacies of
(06:44):
discrimination in this country.
And so prejudices anddiscriminations is something
that we need to continue tofight about.
And in fact, one person told methat if you've ever had to have
a law to provide you entrée intosomething, you know, you're in
one of those groups.
So whether you're a woman or aperson of color, or a person, uh
(07:06):
, that's from a gay community, aperson with a disability,
whatever that, you know, if youhad to have a law to allow you
to do something that others cando, then, you know, you're part
of that camp and you have notbeen included.
So I think it is a topic that'svery important.
It's very salient to me and tomany.
(07:27):
Um, but it is not one that we'vegotten right yet.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (07:32):
Thank you.
I really appreciate your commentabout if you have to have a law
that really gives me pause, andI think it will give our
listeners some pause as well asthey think about the rest of our
conversation.
So what role do you think highereducation plays in enhancing or
altering this conversation ondiversity inclusion on our
individual campuses?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turn (07:54):
Well, I think it's a basic principle.
Higher education really embracesthe importance of diversity and
inclusion.
And so that, it's something thatwe often frame our conversation
around the importance ofeducating all.
People from all walks of life.
Many of us like here at BuffaloState, we have a lot of
first-generation students.
(08:15):
And so you're really providingan opening for a group of
students that perhaps did nothave the advantage before.
And you know, that it willcreate a trajectory that will
really not only enhance thatindividual, but their families
for the future.
Um, and so higher educationreally has a really special role
(08:36):
in that ability to open a doorfor people that have been
blocked from entering into thatspace, which means that they
have been blocked from careersand aspirations that they may
have had, or that they may havethought over the family may have
had with them.
So, you know, we play animportant pivotal role in that
space for individuals.
(08:58):
We also play an important rolein thinking about how to have
conversations around, uh, race,diversity, and inclusion.
The higher education is that onespace in our world where we
really encourage differentopinions, different dialogue,
(09:18):
civil dialogue, uh, and bringingpeople together to have
different perspectives.
And so we, uh, that as well,honed in our campuses, even if
you're not on a diverse campus,my campus more than 50% of the
students are from diversebackgrounds, but even not, you
know, it is a part of educationthat we want to bring diverse
voices.
And so that's something that wehave practiced in higher
(09:41):
education.
Um, we also, uh, not only bringdiverse voices, but we foster,
uh, civil discourse.
Like how do you have aconversation with someone where
you disagree with them, or youdon't understand their
perspective?
That's a perspective I've neverheard of before.
That's a question I would neverthink of before.
So I think that higher educationhas a really important role
(10:05):
because we have reallyunderstood the importance of
diverse voices.
Um, and also I think that weappreciate the rigor of looking
deeply into a topic.
And so maybe someone is not soaware of the disparities in
healthcare or mental health orwealth attainment, you know, but
(10:28):
in higher education, what do wedo?
We lead research and science tothat exploration.
So there's really no fault thatsomeone doesn't understand a
topic fully, but what are highereducation says, okay, well,
let's bring in the experts.
Let's bring in that information.
Let's open up that topic so thatyou really understand what
(10:49):
originally what is really goingon.
So by the nature of what we doand how we do it and the method
of which we go about exploringtopics and the absolute
requirement that you can havediverse, uh, discussions, uh, in
a civil manner, puts highereducation in a place where you
(11:11):
really can channel and, andchallenge each other in a way
that you can truly learn and notjust closed down, because you've
heard something that you don'twant to hear or that it doesn't
fit what you knew before.
Uh, and so I think it does offeran opportunity for us all.
And as a model for the countryof how to have these robust
(11:34):
discussions,
Dr. Davie Gilmour (11:36):
No, I couldn't agree with you more.
And over the past six to ninemonths, as we look at the racial
climate in our communities andacross the country, there are
two statements that I've heardrepeatedly.
Um, and so I'd like to sharethose two statements with you
and then have you to them, ifyou would, first one is
statements of support areimportant to solidify the
(11:59):
position of a college oruniversity.
And the second one is actionsand engagement are the hallmark
of an institutional position andchange.
Do you see those as differentcomplimentary?
How do you react to those twostatements?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turn (12:14):
Well, actually I see them as
complementing each other.
Then I think that is highereducation leaders.
We have to make clear statementsand articulate the value of your
institution and of education toyour constituents and if your
constituents can not hear fromyou the clarity of the
(12:39):
principles that you set up onare just not articulated and
throughout a reverberating inyour community.
So I think the statements areimportant, but they're not
enough.
And that once you make thatstatement and make that clear
statement about what you believein and how you believe in it,
but you have got to back it upwith two actions.
So therefore, what does thatmean for your institution?
(13:01):
What does it mean for reflectionthat your institution may need
to do?
What does it mean for, uh,actions your institution needs
to take?
What does it mean in terms ofpartnerships that's real
institution needs to make?
So I think that those both arejust really important and that
they compliment each othercompliment each other, and it
(13:22):
can't be just one or the other.
And I guess even, you know, asyou say that you've heard those
two statements recently, Ireally think about, you know,
what occurred, when the socialjustice issues began to bubble
up, uh, in our country.
And certainly within our highereducation discussions, when, uh,
(13:42):
George Floyd was killed andBriana Taylor and the one after
the other, you just kept seeingthese horrific things occur.
That, as I said, we're not new.
You know, we've been seeingthese, you know, for many, many
years and as a woman of color, Imust admit each time they hurt
my heart every time that you seethem.
(14:03):
But, um, as they occurred, um,our higher education community
began to put out statements ofsupport around social justice
and around black lives matter.
And certainly I think those arereally important.
And for some institution, maybeit was the first time they had,
you know, articulate it clearlyto their constituents, um, the
(14:23):
institutional value of, uh,justice and fairness, um, for
others, uh, like our campus,these are values that we talk
about a lot, so it was not new,but still yet people are
hurting, you know, that the painwas clearly there and they
needed to hear and be remindedhow we feel about those things.
(14:45):
So how we feel about injusticeanywhere and how we need to
approach and try to, uh, attackand correct injustices when we
see them.
Um, but was, was also importantthough, was like, okay, so
that's true.
You know, we are educators andpeople sometimes, you know,
blame us for thinking and notdoing what does that mean for
your campus?
(15:06):
And I think that each campusneeded then to go the extra step
of saying, okay, what does thatmean?
What am I going to do for, youknow, because of this and, you
know, one of the things thathappened on our campus, is it
just kind of right after thatoccurred after the George Floyd,
uh, um, killing occurred, wediscovered that one of our
residence halls, uh, was namedfor a man who had owned, um,
(15:31):
African-Americans as slaves.
And so, so what are we going todo about that?
So, you know, really goingthrough a process really quite
quickly of saying that this isinconsistent with who we are and
what we stand for, and we willtake that name off that
residence hall, even though wedon't have another name there to
replace it right now, it'll be amore general hall.
(15:53):
And in the future, we will dosome good vetting about who we
want to celebrate, you know,because we want to celebrate the
people whose names we see on ourcampus.
And so we were able to quicklymake that change as I clear
action, just to line up with thestatement of our belief in
social justice.
(16:14):
Um, and then since then we haveconvened a committee that is
looking for a, a permanentmanifestation that celebrates,
uh, social justice.
And so, you know, we're puttinga call out to a community to, to
make recommendations what itshould look like and where it
should be, so that we reallyhave something on our campus
(16:34):
that we can actually point tothat says that this was put in
place as an affirmation to, um,how we feel about social justice
and affirmation that will liveon way beyond me and any of us,
uh, to understand, uh, where weare with social justice.
So I think the action is soimportant and the type of action
(16:56):
there is between who you are andour campus and your history, you
know, but taking the extra stepI think is important to do.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (17:04):
Absolutely.
I agree with you and you've ledperfectly into my next question
for you because you've givenexamples of what a committee is
doing a group formed on yourcampus.
So what role does the collegepresident play in this?
Um, you know, we're sitting hereas two college presidents, but
so what is the presidential rolein addressing diversity and
inclusion on a campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (17:26):
I think that it is our role to
both, uh, make sure that we'reliving our principles and so
that we are going through orleading our campus through
careful reflection andevaluation and assessment of the
work that we do.
Uh, and the institutionalpractices that we have, uh, to
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assure that they really, um, youknow, meet the goals and
principles that we articulate.
And then I would secondly saythat it is important for us to
be visible reminders to ourcommunity of this importance.
And so what we say matters, whatleaders say matters, what
leaders talk about, what theyinclude really matters.
(18:11):
And so that we have thewonderful opportunity to talk to
many constituents and peoplelisten to us, whether they're
students or faculty or staff oralums or partners, we have to
make sure that we arecommunicating the value of the
institution, uh, often and, uh,in a total way so that people
(18:32):
are clear of where theinstitution stands as embodied
in the very important positionas president.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (18:40):
Thank you.
What do you think have been yourgreatest challenges and greatest
opportunities in advancing theseefforts of diversity and
inclusion on your campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (18:50):
I think my greatest opportunities
have been the amazing peoplearound me that they provide
openings and ways that perhaps,um, would not have come from a
committee, but because of theirown passion.
So tapping into the amazingfaculty and staff that, that
really do great work in thisspace and not thinking that it's
(19:13):
all about you or all about thepresidential committee of equity
and diversity that I have, whichis a great committee and, you
know, and reviews things.
And that stinks.
It makes recommendations, butsome of the best ideas really
have come from those reallygreat members of your community
that are quietly investing in,uh, social justice work, equity
(19:34):
work, diversity work that needsto be celebrated.
And oftentimes it can then turninto something larger for the
community or provide apartnership with others, um, in
our community.
So, so the opportunity really isin the people.
In the passion and thecommitment, and then the
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dedication of the folks that arealready doing the work.
That's, that's really consistentto our focus on, um, um, race
equity and diversity.
Uh, the challenges are thecompeting work that we're doing.
Uh, we're standing in the middleof a pandemic, you know, so
there's so many other thingsthat compete for our time and
(20:17):
our resources.
And so it's quite a challenge to, um, keep this very important
thing moving forward at the samesort of speed when you're
stopping to make sure that newhealth and safety protocols are
in place that frankly, a yearago, I couldn't even imagine
thinking about.
(20:37):
Um, so the competing prioritiesis a real challenge.
Um, the resources in general,um, so sometimes are they're
convenings that we want to domay, uh, I think campus
community is our great convenersfor issues and concerns around
race, diversity, and inclusion,but they cost money to convene
(21:00):
and, and to host.
And so sometimes it's really theresources and, and certainly,
you know, we're both aware ofthe defending of education, you
know, uh, the, the many new andold ways that our resources are
stretched.
And so really having theresources to really do the,
continue to do the heavy work.
(21:20):
But I think that the creativityand innovation that we can show
on our campus often allows us tofind a way out of what seems
like an impossible way.
Right?
So, uh, so those are thechallenges,
Dr. Davie Gilmour (21:35):
You know, Kate, you know, you mentioned an
incredible challenge becausesome of this convening of these
folks and the campus people areamazing, and we have this
initiative and this creativitythat happens across campuses,
but that's difficult now, a bitmore difficult in this virtual
environment where we're tryingto convene a larger group of
people for discussion.
(21:55):
So I think your points arereally well taken, and then you
add the pandemic to it.
So you've now teed me upperfectly for my next question.
How can the lessons you'velearned in this incredible year
of 2020, um, position you wellfor the future when it comes to
these topics of diversityinclusion, social justice?
Yeah,
Dr. Katherine Conwa (22:13):
Absolutely.
And the lessons we've learned in2020 there have been so many of
them.
Um, well, one of the lessonsI've learned is that there's so
much more work to be done thanperhaps I, or you thought we had
to do, um, before 2020.
And certainly before, you know,the last few years where, um,
(22:39):
the divisions have just eruptedin, in our country, uh, hatred
and racism has bubbled up andways that really, I thought that
was a thing of the past to thislevel.
You know, certainly we knewthere was still much to fight on
this level, much more work todo, but I really, um, you know,
think that before the last fewyears, I really thought we were
(23:02):
in a better place, a betterfoundation to build on.
Now I realize that, you know,some of the basic sort of
tendons really have to be, youknow, uh, sured up and really
reestablished, uh, around this.
And so, um, so I really, thisyear has, has taught me that,
um, my work is far from done andthat the work of all of us
(23:26):
together as far from done andthat we really have to continue
the fight really, uh, for, uh,inclusion across our campuses
and really celebrating and, andmaintaining and developing
greater, um, legs for social orjustice.
(23:46):
I would say also, uh, 2020 hasalso showed me that, um, we
always have to be ready for theunexpected and to do things in
ways that are totally new forus.
Uh, I would have never imaginedthat we could have the kind of
programs that we do nowvirtually and have them be
(24:09):
successful.
But one of the hallmarks of ourcampuses as the day that we call
, um, Buffalo State Dare toCare, and it's a day that
hundreds of us go out into thecommunity and engage in social
service together.
And we really work with a lot ofthe communities that are
struggling.
A lot of the nonprofit programs,and it's just a really wonderful
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day for us.
And the community looks forwardto it.
We usually have 40 or 50different programs that we link
together with.
And then the pandemic comes.
As I'm sitting down with ourwonderful director for the
center for civic engagement.
And I'm thinking, how on earthare we going to do something
this year?
So how can we learn from it?
(24:54):
And she came up with thisamazing rather than a day of
dare to care.
We got a day dare to care amonth where we really brought in
partnerships for partnersvirtually who talked to our
students and our students talkedto community members, and we had
amazing robust discussions andplanning on, on work in this, in
(25:16):
this sphere around, you know,caring for people that are
marginalized and so forth that Ijust couldn't have imagined.
So what I learned was that, um,even though it may be something
really different, you can find away to do the good work.
You can find a way to stayconnected and that this virtual
space.
So it is certainly not mypreferred mode mode.
(25:37):
I rather be in your living roomor in your office talking with
you, but there's so much we canget done, uh, even in a virtual
format.
So, so the innovation andcreativity that we have learned
I will maintain, and I thinkhigher education will maintain
and really all industries thatthere'll be lessons learned a
(25:58):
way to do things that we neverimagined that actually are not
just good, but are perhaps evenbetter than some of the things
that we did before.
And then of course the lesson ofmore work to be done, more work
to be done
Dr. Davie Gilmour (26:13):
So as you look to the future, you know,
we're looking to a new year, anew calendar year in 2021 with
lots of new things across ourcountry and across, you know,
colleges that we're stilldealing with, pandemic, et
cetera.
What has all of this taught youand how will this impact your
work on your campus for yourstudents in diversity,
(26:35):
inclusion, and social justice?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turne (26:38):
Yes.
I mean, I think it's going toimpact my work in lots of ways.
Uh, what saw was that thecommunities that were
disadvantaged before thepandemic are in worse shape now
than they were before.
So the gap between them meetingtheir needs on whatever level is
greater than now.
So that will really inform mywork.
(27:00):
So we're already thinking abouthow we can work with our donors
and our supporters to bettersupport our students, to close
more gaps.
We'd already had things likeemergency funds and, you know,
close the gap and, you know, allthose kinds of things,
scholarship monies, but we knowthat we have to do even more,
(27:21):
that we have to help people thathave the means, understand that
this space has furtherdisadvantaged those people that
they were helping before.
And if you were helping at acertain level, now they need
more help.
So that is really a space thatwe will absolutely enter into as
(27:42):
we move forward.
The students that we, um, uh,recruit and come to our campus,
uh, often are students who arealready invested in, um, sort of
community and social justice,cause that's kind of what our
campus is about.
And so they're attracted to us.
Uh, and so we know that whatwe're learning from this space
(28:04):
means that we have to help themto connect even more than
before, because they're going tosee the kinds of disadvantages,
perhaps they, before those of uson campus, we'll see them.
And so, um, so we'll need tohelp them, you know, close those
gaps and enter those fields inan informed way, such that
(28:25):
they're best prepared to leadand be the leaders that they're
going to be as they live oncampus.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (28:31):
Thank you.
You know, Kate, this has been agreat conversation and I really
appreciate your taking the timeto answer my questions and have
this discussion.
We certainly know that yourefforts and that SUNY Buffalo
State will be an inspiration toother institutions and where we
individually and collectivelycan fulfill our responsibilities
(28:53):
for promoting more socialjustice society to our
listeners.
I want to thank you for joiningus.
If you want the commission tohighlight the efforts of your
institution in a future podcast,then please visit msche.org
slash pillars of change andsubmit your suggestion on behalf
(29:13):
of the Middle States Commissionon Higher Education and our
guest, Dr.
Kate Conway-Turner, I'm DavidGilmore saying, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
[inaudible].
[inaudible]
Dr. Davie Gilmour (00:16):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommission on Higher Education.
I'm Dr.
Davie Gilmour, president of thePennsylvania College of
Technology and vice chair of theMiddle States Commission on
Higher Education.
I'd like to thank you forjoining me for the first of a
series of podcasts, focusing onthe topics of diversity, equity,
(00:40):
and inclusion.
Perhaps there are no more recenttopics that have generated as
much energy and conversationssuch as those.
And most importantly, a need forconversation and change.
Over the course of its history,the identity of the Middle
States Commission on HigherEducation has been closely
(01:01):
aligned with assuring trust andinstilling confidence in higher
education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions.
Encouraging institutional changehas never been more important
(01:24):
than it is today whereinstitutional actions, policies,
or procedures may reveal thedisparate impact on an
increasingly diverse studentpopulation.
For institutions that share theresults of deep and thoughtful
self-reflection the Commissionsupports and applauds their
(01:45):
efforts because the commissionrecognizes that it holds an
important voice and space withinthe higher education community.
It has launched this podcastseries to spotlight highly
effective institutionalpractices that have made a
difference in the lives of ourstudents through diversity,
equity, and inclusioninitiatives.
(02:08):
Today, we are talking with Dr.
Katherine Conway-Turner,President of SUNY Buffalo State,
who also serves as acommissioner with the Middle
States Commission on HigherEducation and chair of the board
of the National Campus Compactamong numerous other
affiliations.
Kate, who was recentlyrecognized by Buffalo Business
(02:29):
First with the 2020 Woman ofInfluence Life Achievement Award
is regarded for pushing thecollege's vision for diversity,
equity, and inclusion.
Welcome Kate.
T hank you questions.
My first question for you todayis what is your sense of race,
(02:49):
diversity, and inclusion in ourcountry today?
U m, our country is, u m, morediverse than
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (03:00):
Has ever been in, uh, through its
inception.
Uh, and of course we know ashigher education educators that
our student bodies are morediverse than ever before.
Um, this has beenwell-documented in many, many
reports and the recent ACPE, uh,race, ethnicity, and higher
education report of 2019 and2020 certainly reminded us of
(03:23):
how important it is tounderstand the diversity of our
campuses.
So when I think about the senseof race, diversity, and
inclusion today, I have to firstbegin to think about how diverse
our communities really are andhow diverse many of our campuses
are today, but it's clear thatissues of race, um, diversity
(03:48):
inclusion are quite contested inlots of ways.
That it is not just about thenumbers, is not just about the
obvious diversity, but it reallymeans different things to
different people.
So for some the issues of, uh,of a highly diverse community
really points to the richness ofdiversity and importance of
(04:09):
diversity in our campuses andsomething to be really
celebrated and something toreally help us understand how
important the connections areacross many different groups.
However, for others, it meansmore of a sense of otherness, uh
, an opportunity to marginalizepeople, um, a sense of putting
people on a hierarchy so thatsome people are better than
(04:31):
others.
And so we know that it just hasa really different meaning, uh,
with different, differentpeople.
Uh, historically this countryhas had an opportunity to
embrace diversity, but hasfailed to do it in lots of ways.
And we've seen it with multipledifferent groups over different
(04:52):
years, who the other is, who thenegative stereotypes are focused
at, um, and how that some peoplehave just never been able to
break into some of theadvantages that this country
has.
And so the, we know that'sreally been very, very difficult
for us, but the reality is thatin our day-to-day lives, that
(05:15):
diverse people come together inall kinds of ways in the
workforce, you know, and oursocial life in our communities.
And so that the notion of notcelebrating diversity and seeing
people as in some negativestereotypic way is a
disadvantage for, um, ourcountry or for our schools, for
(05:36):
our communities.
And so, um, it is reallysomething to, to really grapple
with.
And then the sense of inclusionis what does it mean to be
really inclusive?
It means more than just bringingpeople into whatever network
you're talking about, but dothey have voice?
Do they have opportunity?
You know, are they listened to,and, and can they share their
(05:58):
perspectives in a way that itmakes a difference?
And so, so, so I, I feel that intoday's world, um, that we've
come a ways that not as far aswe wished we had come, and that
may be somewhat of a surprisefor some.
Maybe, but not for me.
And maybe not that great for youas well.
(06:21):
Um, this difference of seeingdisparities between, uh, people
of color and people that arecharacteristic characterize as
white is not new.
As a girl in the seventies, itwas on the front pages there.
And certainly, you know, if welook back to the sixties and the
fifties and the forties, it wasthere, and really you'd go back
all the way and you can find, um, historical legacies of
(06:44):
discrimination in this country.
And so prejudices anddiscriminations is something
that we need to continue tofight about.
And in fact, one person told methat if you've ever had to have
a law to provide you entrée intosomething, you know, you're in
one of those groups.
So whether you're a woman or aperson of color, or a person, uh
(07:06):
, that's from a gay community, aperson with a disability,
whatever that, you know, if youhad to have a law to allow you
to do something that others cando, then, you know, you're part
of that camp and you have notbeen included.
So I think it is a topic that'svery important.
It's very salient to me and tomany.
(07:27):
Um, but it is not one that we'vegotten right yet.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (07:32):
Thank you.
I really appreciate your commentabout if you have to have a law
that really gives me pause, andI think it will give our
listeners some pause as well asthey think about the rest of our
conversation.
So what role do you think highereducation plays in enhancing or
altering this conversation ondiversity inclusion on our
individual campuses?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turn (07:54):
Well, I think it's a basic principle.
Higher education really embracesthe importance of diversity and
inclusion.
And so that, it's something thatwe often frame our conversation
around the importance ofeducating all.
People from all walks of life.
Many of us like here at BuffaloState, we have a lot of
first-generation students.
(08:15):
And so you're really providingan opening for a group of
students that perhaps did nothave the advantage before.
And you know, that it willcreate a trajectory that will
really not only enhance thatindividual, but their families
for the future.
Um, and so higher educationreally has a really special role
(08:36):
in that ability to open a doorfor people that have been
blocked from entering into thatspace, which means that they
have been blocked from careersand aspirations that they may
have had, or that they may havethought over the family may have
had with them.
So, you know, we play animportant pivotal role in that
space for individuals.
(08:58):
We also play an important rolein thinking about how to have
conversations around, uh, race,diversity, and inclusion.
The higher education is that onespace in our world where we
really encourage differentopinions, different dialogue,
(09:18):
civil dialogue, uh, and bringingpeople together to have
different perspectives.
And so we, uh, that as well,honed in our campuses, even if
you're not on a diverse campus,my campus more than 50% of the
students are from diversebackgrounds, but even not, you
know, it is a part of educationthat we want to bring diverse
voices.
And so that's something that wehave practiced in higher
(09:41):
education.
Um, we also, uh, not only bringdiverse voices, but we foster,
uh, civil discourse.
Like how do you have aconversation with someone where
you disagree with them, or youdon't understand their
perspective?
That's a perspective I've neverheard of before.
That's a question I would neverthink of before.
So I think that higher educationhas a really important role
(10:05):
because we have reallyunderstood the importance of
diverse voices.
Um, and also I think that weappreciate the rigor of looking
deeply into a topic.
And so maybe someone is not soaware of the disparities in
healthcare or mental health orwealth attainment, you know, but
(10:28):
in higher education, what do wedo?
We lead research and science tothat exploration.
So there's really no fault thatsomeone doesn't understand a
topic fully, but what are highereducation says, okay, well,
let's bring in the experts.
Let's bring in that information.
Let's open up that topic so thatyou really understand what
(10:49):
originally what is really goingon.
So by the nature of what we doand how we do it and the method
of which we go about exploringtopics and the absolute
requirement that you can havediverse, uh, discussions, uh, in
a civil manner, puts highereducation in a place where you
(11:11):
really can channel and, andchallenge each other in a way
that you can truly learn and notjust closed down, because you've
heard something that you don'twant to hear or that it doesn't
fit what you knew before.
Uh, and so I think it does offeran opportunity for us all.
And as a model for the countryof how to have these robust
(11:34):
discussions,
Dr. Davie Gilmour (11:36):
No, I couldn't agree with you more.
And over the past six to ninemonths, as we look at the racial
climate in our communities andacross the country, there are
two statements that I've heardrepeatedly.
Um, and so I'd like to sharethose two statements with you
and then have you to them, ifyou would, first one is
statements of support areimportant to solidify the
(11:59):
position of a college oruniversity.
And the second one is actionsand engagement are the hallmark
of an institutional position andchange.
Do you see those as differentcomplimentary?
How do you react to those twostatements?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turn (12:14):
Well, actually I see them as
complementing each other.
Then I think that is highereducation leaders.
We have to make clear statementsand articulate the value of your
institution and of education toyour constituents and if your
constituents can not hear fromyou the clarity of the
(12:39):
principles that you set up onare just not articulated and
throughout a reverberating inyour community.
So I think the statements areimportant, but they're not
enough.
And that once you make thatstatement and make that clear
statement about what you believein and how you believe in it,
but you have got to back it upwith two actions.
So therefore, what does thatmean for your institution?
(13:01):
What does it mean for reflectionthat your institution may need
to do?
What does it mean for, uh,actions your institution needs
to take?
What does it mean in terms ofpartnerships that's real
institution needs to make?
So I think that those both arejust really important and that
they compliment each othercompliment each other, and it
(13:22):
can't be just one or the other.
And I guess even, you know, asyou say that you've heard those
two statements recently, Ireally think about, you know,
what occurred, when the socialjustice issues began to bubble
up, uh, in our country.
And certainly within our highereducation discussions, when, uh,
(13:42):
George Floyd was killed andBriana Taylor and the one after
the other, you just kept seeingthese horrific things occur.
That, as I said, we're not new.
You know, we've been seeingthese, you know, for many, many
years and as a woman of color, Imust admit each time they hurt
my heart every time that you seethem.
(14:03):
But, um, as they occurred, um,our higher education community
began to put out statements ofsupport around social justice
and around black lives matter.
And certainly I think those arereally important.
And for some institution, maybeit was the first time they had,
you know, articulate it clearlyto their constituents, um, the
(14:23):
institutional value of, uh,justice and fairness, um, for
others, uh, like our campus,these are values that we talk
about a lot, so it was not new,but still yet people are
hurting, you know, that the painwas clearly there and they
needed to hear and be remindedhow we feel about those things.
(14:45):
So how we feel about injusticeanywhere and how we need to
approach and try to, uh, attackand correct injustices when we
see them.
Um, but was, was also importantthough, was like, okay, so
that's true.
You know, we are educators andpeople sometimes, you know,
blame us for thinking and notdoing what does that mean for
your campus?
(15:06):
And I think that each campusneeded then to go the extra step
of saying, okay, what does thatmean?
What am I going to do for, youknow, because of this and, you
know, one of the things thathappened on our campus, is it
just kind of right after thatoccurred after the George Floyd,
uh, um, killing occurred, wediscovered that one of our
residence halls, uh, was namedfor a man who had owned, um,
(15:31):
African-Americans as slaves.
And so, so what are we going todo about that?
So, you know, really goingthrough a process really quite
quickly of saying that this isinconsistent with who we are and
what we stand for, and we willtake that name off that
residence hall, even though wedon't have another name there to
replace it right now, it'll be amore general hall.
(15:53):
And in the future, we will dosome good vetting about who we
want to celebrate, you know,because we want to celebrate the
people whose names we see on ourcampus.
And so we were able to quicklymake that change as I clear
action, just to line up with thestatement of our belief in
social justice.
(16:14):
Um, and then since then we haveconvened a committee that is
looking for a, a permanentmanifestation that celebrates,
uh, social justice.
And so, you know, we're puttinga call out to a community to, to
make recommendations what itshould look like and where it
should be, so that we reallyhave something on our campus
(16:34):
that we can actually point tothat says that this was put in
place as an affirmation to, um,how we feel about social justice
and affirmation that will liveon way beyond me and any of us,
uh, to understand, uh, where weare with social justice.
So I think the action is soimportant and the type of action
(16:56):
there is between who you are andour campus and your history, you
know, but taking the extra stepI think is important to do.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (17:04):
Absolutely.
I agree with you and you've ledperfectly into my next question
for you because you've givenexamples of what a committee is
doing a group formed on yourcampus.
So what role does the collegepresident play in this?
Um, you know, we're sitting hereas two college presidents, but
so what is the presidential rolein addressing diversity and
inclusion on a campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (17:26):
I think that it is our role to
both, uh, make sure that we'reliving our principles and so
that we are going through orleading our campus through
careful reflection andevaluation and assessment of the
work that we do.
Uh, and the institutionalpractices that we have, uh, to
(17:47):
assure that they really, um, youknow, meet the goals and
principles that we articulate.
And then I would secondly saythat it is important for us to
be visible reminders to ourcommunity of this importance.
And so what we say matters, whatleaders say matters, what
leaders talk about, what theyinclude really matters.
(18:11):
And so that we have thewonderful opportunity to talk to
many constituents and peoplelisten to us, whether they're
students or faculty or staff oralums or partners, we have to
make sure that we arecommunicating the value of the
institution, uh, often and, uh,in a total way so that people
(18:32):
are clear of where theinstitution stands as embodied
in the very important positionas president.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (18:40):
Thank you.
What do you think have been yourgreatest challenges and greatest
opportunities in advancing theseefforts of diversity and
inclusion on your campus?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turner (18:50):
I think my greatest opportunities
have been the amazing peoplearound me that they provide
openings and ways that perhaps,um, would not have come from a
committee, but because of theirown passion.
So tapping into the amazingfaculty and staff that, that
really do great work in thisspace and not thinking that it's
(19:13):
all about you or all about thepresidential committee of equity
and diversity that I have, whichis a great committee and, you
know, and reviews things.
And that stinks.
It makes recommendations, butsome of the best ideas really
have come from those reallygreat members of your community
that are quietly investing in,uh, social justice work, equity
(19:34):
work, diversity work that needsto be celebrated.
And oftentimes it can then turninto something larger for the
community or provide apartnership with others, um, in
our community.
So, so the opportunity really isin the people.
In the passion and thecommitment, and then the
(19:55):
dedication of the folks that arealready doing the work.
That's, that's really consistentto our focus on, um, um, race
equity and diversity.
Uh, the challenges are thecompeting work that we're doing.
Uh, we're standing in the middleof a pandemic, you know, so
there's so many other thingsthat compete for our time and
(20:17):
our resources.
And so it's quite a challenge to, um, keep this very important
thing moving forward at the samesort of speed when you're
stopping to make sure that newhealth and safety protocols are
in place that frankly, a yearago, I couldn't even imagine
thinking about.
(20:37):
Um, so the competing prioritiesis a real challenge.
Um, the resources in general,um, so sometimes are they're
convenings that we want to domay, uh, I think campus
community is our great convenersfor issues and concerns around
race, diversity, and inclusion,but they cost money to convene
(21:00):
and, and to host.
And so sometimes it's really theresources and, and certainly,
you know, we're both aware ofthe defending of education, you
know, uh, the, the many new andold ways that our resources are
stretched.
And so really having theresources to really do the,
continue to do the heavy work.
(21:20):
But I think that the creativityand innovation that we can show
on our campus often allows us tofind a way out of what seems
like an impossible way.
Right?
So, uh, so those are thechallenges,
Dr. Davie Gilmour (21:35):
You know, Kate, you know, you mentioned an
incredible challenge becausesome of this convening of these
folks and the campus people areamazing, and we have this
initiative and this creativitythat happens across campuses,
but that's difficult now, a bitmore difficult in this virtual
environment where we're tryingto convene a larger group of
people for discussion.
(21:55):
So I think your points arereally well taken, and then you
add the pandemic to it.
So you've now teed me upperfectly for my next question.
How can the lessons you'velearned in this incredible year
of 2020, um, position you wellfor the future when it comes to
these topics of diversityinclusion, social justice?
Yeah,
Dr. Katherine Conwa (22:13):
Absolutely.
And the lessons we've learned in2020 there have been so many of
them.
Um, well, one of the lessonsI've learned is that there's so
much more work to be done thanperhaps I, or you thought we had
to do, um, before 2020.
And certainly before, you know,the last few years where, um,
(22:39):
the divisions have just eruptedin, in our country, uh, hatred
and racism has bubbled up andways that really, I thought that
was a thing of the past to thislevel.
You know, certainly we knewthere was still much to fight on
this level, much more work todo, but I really, um, you know,
think that before the last fewyears, I really thought we were
(23:02):
in a better place, a betterfoundation to build on.
Now I realize that, you know,some of the basic sort of
tendons really have to be, youknow, uh, sured up and really
reestablished, uh, around this.
And so, um, so I really, thisyear has, has taught me that,
um, my work is far from done andthat the work of all of us
(23:26):
together as far from done andthat we really have to continue
the fight really, uh, for, uh,inclusion across our campuses
and really celebrating and, andmaintaining and developing
greater, um, legs for social orjustice.
(23:46):
I would say also, uh, 2020 hasalso showed me that, um, we
always have to be ready for theunexpected and to do things in
ways that are totally new forus.
Uh, I would have never imaginedthat we could have the kind of
programs that we do nowvirtually and have them be
(24:09):
successful.
But one of the hallmarks of ourcampuses as the day that we call
, um, Buffalo State Dare toCare, and it's a day that
hundreds of us go out into thecommunity and engage in social
service together.
And we really work with a lot ofthe communities that are
struggling.
A lot of the nonprofit programs,and it's just a really wonderful
(24:32):
day for us.
And the community looks forwardto it.
We usually have 40 or 50different programs that we link
together with.
And then the pandemic comes.
As I'm sitting down with ourwonderful director for the
center for civic engagement.
And I'm thinking, how on earthare we going to do something
this year?
So how can we learn from it?
(24:54):
And she came up with thisamazing rather than a day of
dare to care.
We got a day dare to care amonth where we really brought in
partnerships for partnersvirtually who talked to our
students and our students talkedto community members, and we had
amazing robust discussions andplanning on, on work in this, in
(25:16):
this sphere around, you know,caring for people that are
marginalized and so forth that Ijust couldn't have imagined.
So what I learned was that, um,even though it may be something
really different, you can find away to do the good work.
You can find a way to stayconnected and that this virtual
space.
So it is certainly not mypreferred mode mode.
(25:37):
I rather be in your living roomor in your office talking with
you, but there's so much we canget done, uh, even in a virtual
format.
So, so the innovation andcreativity that we have learned
I will maintain, and I thinkhigher education will maintain
and really all industries thatthere'll be lessons learned a
(25:58):
way to do things that we neverimagined that actually are not
just good, but are perhaps evenbetter than some of the things
that we did before.
And then of course the lesson ofmore work to be done, more work
to be done
Dr. Davie Gilmour (26:13):
So as you look to the future, you know,
we're looking to a new year, anew calendar year in 2021 with
lots of new things across ourcountry and across, you know,
colleges that we're stilldealing with, pandemic, et
cetera.
What has all of this taught youand how will this impact your
work on your campus for yourstudents in diversity,
(26:35):
inclusion, and social justice?
Dr. Katherine Conway-Turne (26:38):
Yes.
I mean, I think it's going toimpact my work in lots of ways.
Uh, what saw was that thecommunities that were
disadvantaged before thepandemic are in worse shape now
than they were before.
So the gap between them meetingtheir needs on whatever level is
greater than now.
So that will really inform mywork.
(27:00):
So we're already thinking abouthow we can work with our donors
and our supporters to bettersupport our students, to close
more gaps.
We'd already had things likeemergency funds and, you know,
close the gap and, you know, allthose kinds of things,
scholarship monies, but we knowthat we have to do even more,
(27:21):
that we have to help people thathave the means, understand that
this space has furtherdisadvantaged those people that
they were helping before.
And if you were helping at acertain level, now they need
more help.
So that is really a space thatwe will absolutely enter into as
(27:42):
we move forward.
The students that we, um, uh,recruit and come to our campus,
uh, often are students who arealready invested in, um, sort of
community and social justice,cause that's kind of what our
campus is about.
And so they're attracted to us.
Uh, and so we know that whatwe're learning from this space
(28:04):
means that we have to help themto connect even more than
before, because they're going tosee the kinds of disadvantages,
perhaps they, before those of uson campus, we'll see them.
And so, um, so we'll need tohelp them, you know, close those
gaps and enter those fields inan informed way, such that
(28:25):
they're best prepared to leadand be the leaders that they're
going to be as they live oncampus.
Dr. Davie Gilmour (28:31):
Thank you.
You know, Kate, this has been agreat conversation and I really
appreciate your taking the timeto answer my questions and have
this discussion.
We certainly know that yourefforts and that SUNY Buffalo
State will be an inspiration toother institutions and where we
individually and collectivelycan fulfill our responsibilities
(28:53):
for promoting more socialjustice society to our
listeners.
I want to thank you for joiningus.
If you want the commission tohighlight the efforts of your
institution in a future podcast,then please visit msche.org
slash pillars of change andsubmit your suggestion on behalf
(29:13):
of the Middle States Commissionon Higher Education and our
guest, Dr.
Kate Conway-Turner, I'm DavidGilmore saying, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
[inaudible].
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