February 5, 2021 • 25 mins
Middle States Commission on Higher Education Executive Committee member Dr. Carl Person welcomes Dr. Wayne Frederick, President of Howard University, to the MSCHE's Pillars of Change podcast for an engaging and wide-ranging conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion issues.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
[inaudible]
Dr. Carl Person (00:16):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommission on Higher Education.
I am Commissioner Dr.
Carl Person a public memberserving on the Executive
Committee of the Commission anda former NASA official.
I would like to thank you forjoining me for the Commission's
(00:38):
continued series of podcasts,focusing on the topics of
diversity, equity, andinclusion.
The Middle States Commission onHigher Education is closely
aligned with the ensuring trustand instilling confidence in
higher education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
(01:00):
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions.
And because the Commissionrecognizes that it holds an
important voice and space withinthe higher education community,
this podcast series spotlightshighly effective institutional
(01:21):
practices that have made adifference in the lives of our
students through diversity,equity, and inclusion
initiatives.
Today, we are talking with Dr.
Wayne Frederick President ofHoward University.
A distinguished scholar andadministrator Dr.
Frederick has advanced HowardUniversity's commitment to
(01:44):
student opportunity, academicinnovation, workforce
development, public service, andfiscal stability.
Under his leadership.
Howard is t hat the forefront ofdriving the conversation on
issues of diversity, equity, andinclusion, not to mention now
(02:06):
having one of the most famousalumni in the world, Vice
President of the United States,Kamala Harris, and I know a
wonderful celebration is ongoingat Howard.
So welcome Dr.
Frederick and thank you forjoining me today.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (02:23):
All right.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
Dr. Carl Person (02:26):
So we're going to jump right into the
questions.
What is your sense of race,diversity, and inclusion in our
country today?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (02:35):
Yeah, you know, I think, um, you know,
today what we are experiencingand seeing, um, I think is that
you eruption of what has beenunder the surface.
So it's always existed.
So almost like you you've had avolcano that has been spitting
some ash, uh ashes for some timeand now you have a major
(02:56):
eruption.
I think.
So it's always been there.
The rumblings have been takingplace, and I think a certain
segment of our society, uh, tobe quite honest, has ignored it
for one reason or another.
Um, and that now I think has,has burst into the open.
I do think we have to also makesome distinctions, some
distinctions between race andethnicity.
(03:18):
Uh, you know, I think oftentimeswe use the terms
interchangeably, but we have torecognize, especially as we
become, uh, such a smaller worldbecause of the connectivity, um,
who the types of people who areinteracting with one another and
what happens as a result reallychanges, um, you know, the, the
(03:38):
construct of, of the idea ofrace as a genetic profile or
genetic descendancy versus anethnicity in terms of how people
identify and their culture,their cultural and environmental
, um, compass.
And, and then when you talkabout, um, you know, inclusion
and equity, uh, again, you talkabout something different than
(04:00):
it has to be, more than justice,because it's not just about, um,
giving people something fornothing, but it's about being
fear.
It's about, um, living in a morejust society that recognizes the
humanity in all of us, which Ithink should be the umbrella,
uh, for any discussion on theseissues.
That there's a humanity in allof us that has to be respected,
(04:25):
um, really revered and to bequite honest, um, really held
up.
Dr. Carl Person (04:31):
Excellent.
And I think your discussion ofdefining the issues of race,
diversity, and inclusion asseparate entities, but it leads
me to my next question.
What role does higher educationplay in enhancing or altering
the conversation of diversityand inclusion on individual
campuses?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (04:51):
You know, I think higher education plays a
critical role because you haveyoung people in their formative
years, um, who will go on tobecome leaders in our society.
You have faculty who have spenta lot of time researching
issues, accumulating a lot ofknowledge.
And so you really have theperfect, um, cauldron as it were
(05:15):
for all of the ingredients thatcome together and form.
Um, what I think could be agreat solution.
However, what has happened iswe've become, um, I think a bit
technocratic for lack of abetter description around giving
people the technical informationthey need and knowledge.
(05:35):
Uh, we started talking aboutskillsets and credentialing, but
what we in doing that, I thinkall of us, I, I, I support, but
what I think that has some hasprobably taken away some
attention from, um, is the factthat we are in a lot of ways,
the solution, for big socialissues.
(05:56):
And the way that we promote thatis by making young people who
recognize that if they worktogether, even if they disagree
politically or they havedifferent religious beliefs.
So they, they are from differentethnicities, that there is a
magic in critical thinking andcritical discussion that results
in bigger solutions.
(06:17):
And I think as our higher edinstitutions, we have to play a
role in and making sure that theyoung people who come to us have
an appreciation of the biggerproblems and the fact that they
actually may represent thesolution, but they don't do that
as individuals.
They do that as members of alarger team.
And that team right now today,uh, is the human race.
Dr. Carl Person (06:41):
Excellent.
I think I just recently readsomewhere where Howard was named
the number one privateinstitution in social mobility
or something like
Dr. Wayne Frederick (06:50):
That.
That's correct.
That's absolutely correct.
Dr. Carl Person (06:52):
Yes.
So let's move on.
So during the past year or so,we frequently heard the
following two statements,statements of support are
important to solidify theposition of the college or
university.
Actions and engagement are thehallmarks of institutional
position and change.
(07:14):
So do you see those twostatements separately or sort of
, um, look at them together?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (07:21):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Uh, the presidency of alluniversities, I think has become
a very complex and complicated.
Uh, we want our presidents to doeverything and we often do not,
um, undo the presidency from thepresident.
(07:42):
And I think that's an importantdistinction.
The presidency of a universityis very different from the
president who may hold thatposition at the time.
And what we want to see in ourpresident is an expression from
the presidency that takes awaytheir humanity to some extent we
want that person to be amechanical, um, purveyor of
(08:04):
messages.
And I think that's why we end upwith these statements as opposed
to, if we would allow ourpresidents to get back to what
they used to be the embodimentof the culture in our
universities.
I think then we would give somemore latitude on what that
expression and then thesubsequent action is.
(08:27):
Um, and I think that, that wehave to start, I think, um,
letting our presidents, uh, leadand take that appropriately in
the society that they used to.
I mean, you think of a FatherHesburgh and you place them in
this time.
And I think often of not justwhat he would say, but what he
(08:47):
would subsequently do and yetit's it then latitude, right?
He didn't have to be a socialscientist.
So, you know, he didn't have tobe, um, the, the person who
understood race theory the best,you know, all of those things in
one statement, that'simpossible.
Uh, but I think he would havebeen at the forefront of calling
(09:08):
for justice.
It would have been at theforefront for calling for
change.
Then he would have been at theforefront for setting up
structures to do that.
But I think that the latitudethat is given to presidents
today, um, isn't quite therehaving said that there are some
who do it, let me just be clear.
You know, I think PresidentMcGuire at Trinity is an
example.
(09:28):
Um, some of us run very publicprivate universities like I do.
And that latitude in some waysis constrained, unfortunately.
Dr. Carl Person (09:38):
Yes, absolutely.
So your response leads medirectly to my next question.
What role does the college oruniversity president play in
diversity and inclusion, both oncampus and the surrounding
communities.
And I know you being there inthe Shaw area of DC, which is
really the heart of the city.
(10:01):
Uh there's.
There's been change in yourarea.
So how do you react to thatquestion?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (10:07):
Yeah, so I, you know, I'll tell you, I
think, I think the president, itstarts with the president, it
starts with his leadership andalso we have to be the first
thing I think you have to do todo is to be honest with what is
the institution that you'rerunning, what are its strengths
and its weaknesses that'softentimes we, uh, we are
(10:29):
resistant to speak truth topower as it were.
Right.
So for instance, I was speakingabout my experience at Howard
when I started, um, I had onewoman Dean, right?
All the teaching schools andcolleges, and anybody would
argue that Howard's DNA issocial justice.
Well, if it is, how could youhave 70% undergrad or, um,
(10:50):
undergrads as a woman and youhave one woman Dean.
So I decided that that was myissue.
So all of my search committees,have gender balance, everybody
has to do unconscious biastraining and competency,
cultural competency training.
And I don't interview finalistsunless one of them is a woman.
Now, nine of my deans are women.
(11:12):
And so it has to start, I think,with the leadership.
The second thing I would sayit's maybe viewed as a bit
controversial.
I don't necessarily believe indiversity and inclusion
officers.
And let me be clear about this.
Um, I think the people who dothat work do fantastic work, but
my point is that if you areserious about it, then it should
(11:34):
reside in the president'sportfolio.
You shouldn't have to create aseparate diversity and inclusion
office or officer, uh, to do itthat still suggests that it's
probably not necessarily yourpriority.
I think if the president takesthat on, as this is my
responsibility to fit that senseof fair, very different message,
everybody else in theorganization, if the president
(11:56):
is at those meetings is talkingabout it, then every statement
he or she makes, I think itcomes in for.
And then when you, then when,after you've done your own self
examination and make sure thatyour house is in order, you can
speak to the wider public oneabout what you've done, but also
about what you want to see interms of the change, right?
So the change has to start withus and then you have to do it
(12:18):
on, you mentioned.
Shaw.
And in fact, the neighborhood isgentrified and that's true.
So what I did early on in mypresidency is I invited the
neighborhood into the universityand I had them sit with my
faculty, my students, myadministrators, and myself, and
we had a conversation aboutwhat, Howard is, right.
There was an education that wasrequired to let them know what
(12:41):
the university was and why itwas here.
And I think that that has provento be fruitful.
Dr. Carl Person (12:46):
Excellent.
That's a very, uh, uh, I waspleased to hear your
conversation about the wholeposition of a diversity and
inclusion officer.
That's a, that's an interestingpoint you made.
Um, but that leads me really tomy next question.
So what have been your greatestopportunities and challenges in
(13:07):
advancing your efforts on yourcampus?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (13:10):
Yeah, well, you know, clearly I think the
opportunity of gender, theopportunity around where our
blind spots may be because we'repredominantly African-American
right.
Um, or LGBTQ positions and thatcommunity and trying to lift up
that community.
I, so, so they had differentways to look at it.
Uh, we're working right now on arelationship with Gallaudet for
(13:34):
instance and where I'd like myfreshmen students in their
freshman experience class tohave to interact with Gallaudet
students.
That's a different type ofdiscrimination and disability,
but I think it could be powerful, uh, for them to learn from
students who are deaf and, and,uh, I unable to communicate and
(13:54):
the way that we communicate, butlive in a broader society that
doesn't accommodate them.
Well, I think it would be greatfor my students who may be
marginalized because of theircolor, their skin and ethnicity,
to hear that, you know, how dothese young people navigate the
classroom?
How do they navigate jobs, youknow, et cetera.
(14:14):
And I think that that did bringa different sensitization to the
experience of the Howardstudent.
And so I think that as a bigopportunity for us to look at
differently, marginalizedcommunities, and really give our
students a b road experience.
And I would say in terms ofchallenge, the challenge I have
is the challenge of the broadersociety is facing today.
(14:38):
And what d oes that challenge?
The challenge that the b roadersociety is facing to be quite
honest is the challenge of, u h,culture and c ulture.
U h, quite frankly, is simplytolerated behavior.
And over the past four years,we've tolerated the, I w ould, I
w ould call the dehumanizing ofpeople.
Right?
We've tolerated getting onsocial media and saying whatever
(15:01):
you want about somebody else.
We've tolerated calling peoplenames, we've tolerated,
disrespecting, you know, theoffice, you don't expect
behavior of a certain kind andcertain officers.
And unfortunately ouruniversities are not immune to
that.
And I think that whether peoplel ike the b ehavior or not,
we've normalized it.
And I think that that is a bigchallenge, for us b ringing
(15:23):
forward to, to reverse thattrend.
Dr. Carl Person (15:27):
Thank you for that response.
I do have a follow-up, this ismore of a, um, just to get your
insights on what Howard and whatyou're doing beyond your campus.
And this really relates to, I'venoticed that you have received
some really nice gifts, uh, overthe last year.
(15:48):
And I'll just highlight a coupleof those, uh, the one you
received from a gift to open awomen's center.
And you've also received a giftfor ethical leadership and
racial justice initiative, andyou've received a gift for a
(16:10):
nonprofit leadership program,but I think on top of all of
that is a gift you receive fromMacKinzie Scott.
Just talk a little bit about howthose gifts will be used to help
broaden this whole discussionabout, uh, diversity and
inclusion.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (16:27):
Uh, so, and like I said, um, you know, my,
my approach is always, let'smake sure that we're doing the
things we need to do and womengender issues, um, it's
something we needed to elevateon our campus.
And so that sense, it's criticalthat Jarpa Dawuni who is, uh,
um, and a faculty member inpolitical science has really led
(16:50):
that charge.
I've been engaging andinteracting with her over the
course of a few years.
I, I recognize her commitmentand, uh, where we would go.
And so, uh, we were reallyaggressive about fundraising to
kind of, to help support that.
And so that, that's how thatcame about with respect to, you
know, the other gifts.
I think the primary issue withthe other gifts is that we've
(17:13):
been aggressively trying to tellour story and be consistent
about that.
Uh, we sent moreAfrican-Americans to medical
school than anyone else we'vetrained and graduated more
African-American physicians thanany other single institution in
America.
Uh, if you look at Harvard's MBAprogram, um, over the past 50
(17:34):
years, the number one supplierof African-Americans or black
students to their MBA program,uh, was Harvard undergrad,
number two, Howard we see youlook at STEM PhD.
I mean, you go down the lineAfrican-American lawyers, I
mean, you go down the line.
We are very much at theforefront of diversifying a
large number of fields.
(17:57):
And so we've been out making theargument that it's not just a
numbers game, but the quality ofthe people that we've been
putting out has been making thesociety a better society.
And if that is what people areinterested in, that they should
invest in Howard.
And so that has been, ourapproach has been effective.
I think when I first took overthe presidency, what I needed to
(18:19):
do was to make sure that we werein better fiscal ground, that we
were performing betteracademically.
And that our research enterprisewas, was trending over activity
that we could be proud of.
And those things, you know, as,you know, they take time, I
don't, you know, universitiesare more like flotillas as
opposed to catamaran, so theydon't all have to add sharp
(18:42):
angles.
It takes a while to round thatcorner.
We've rounded that bend.
Dr. Carl Person (18:47):
Yeah.
One of the ones that I didn'tmention was your recent award
from Amazon to diversifyHollywood.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (18:54):
Yeah.
So this is part of, um, myworkforce development vision.
Uh, we went out the very firstmonth I was named president.
I went out to Silicon Valley andmet with several companies and
pitched the fact that if theywere going to complain about the
lack of, uh, the ability to codein the African American student,
(19:17):
and they should take aresponsibility to help us
improve that skillset.
And so my, um, my, my proposalwas why don't I send my students
out to you, embed them in yourculture, have the Google
engineers and the Howard facultyco-teach because I also want my
faculty to be better.
(19:38):
And, uh, let's, let's see whathappens.
And, uh, you know, Google tookme up on that, um, proposal and
it did that.
And now, uh, we, we havestudents that place, uh, not
just at Google, but throughoutSilicon Valley at a greater
propensity, we've since spreadthat from Howard west was to the
other eight HCBUs and theHispanic serving institutions.
(20:00):
And so with HowardEntertainment, the idea was, I
want to see, uh, studentsgreen-lighting films when they
graduate.
Of course, I want to seeAfrican-Americans in the
C-suite.
I want to see them in front ofcamera and behind the camera.
And so we've sent students outfrom our law school, business,
communications, and finance, uh,to this program at Amazon studio
(20:24):
.
By again, they being co-taughtby professionals, practitioners
in those different fields andour faculty, and, uh, are in
second iteration and it's, it'sgoing fantastic.
Um, you know, we ultimately, aspart of our Howard Entertainment
, uh, you know, vision is toultimately be able to have a
production company as it wouldto make until our own stories.
(20:47):
And I think that, that, um, youknow, would, would be a great
combination of, of this vision.
Dr. Carl Person (20:53):
Excellent.
So that's gone to the nextquestion.
How can the lessons learned from2020, you know, the pandemic BLM
, the elections, et cetera,advanced your thoughts about
diversity, equity and inclusion,and how are they, or can those
lessons be applied to Howard?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (21:15):
You know, I think, uh, the first lesson that
I hope we learn, I think is avery simple lesson.
That is one that I think we knewall along.
And that is that, uh, the valuein each of us is not measured by
how well, the color of our skin,our station, or position in
life.
But it's as said by severalpeople born before us, what must
(21:39):
be important as the content ofour character and the fact that
we maximize our ability to loveeach other and to see the
humanity in each other.
And I think that that is stillthe basic lesson.
It doesn't matter where we arein society.
It doesn't matter howtechnologically advanced we
become that's still is thefundamental lesson of our human
(22:02):
existence.
And now that we are here, Ithink sometimes you need a
reeducation as it wererepetition is the key to
learning.
I think people say, andsometimes you need to, to have
major, um, major issues, accruefor us to be reminded of what we
should be focusing on.
And hopefully that's what willcome out of this, that we will
(22:24):
get back, uh, to doing the workof, of lifting up each other.
Dr. Carl Person (22:30):
That's so key, especially in the environment
that we've been dealing withhere in this country, we have to
uplift one another.
So finally, what do you hopethat the impact is upon your
students from your institution'sefforts on diversity, equity and
inclusion?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (22:49):
Yeah.
I hope that the impact would bethat, uh, they continue to do
what they've been doing.
I think the silver lining hereis always going to our students,
um, almost to the studentservice and what we say to
students as you come here to geta degree, you come here to get
an education.
And the way that education worksis that you then go out into the
(23:10):
society and you change thesociety by providing service
based on the knowledge.
And the truth you've acquiredhere.
Right?
And so it's about getting aneducation as opposed to a
degree.
So with that in mind, what Ihope is that all the students
who we see in the issues ofdiversity and inclusion, et
(23:31):
cetera, that they ultimatelywould see the humanity, uh, in
that, in those lessons.
And they ultimately would seethat the biggest tool that they
have to go out and apply withtheir knowledge is love love for
each other and love for seeing amore complete society.
And I think if they continue todo that as they have been, um, I
do think, uh, that we can bevery optimistic about what our
(23:55):
higher education institutions ingeneral are going to do to
change the society.
Dr. Carl Person (24:01):
Well, we truly need more love.
And, uh, and I thank you forbeing one of those change agents
and Howar University truly is,um, producing students who, who
change the world.
And we see one in our new Vice-President that is such a
(24:23):
wonderful thing to see.
Well, Dr.
Frederick, I truly do want tothank you for joining me this
afternoon, and I trulyappreciate your willingness to
share your thoughts on race,diversity and inclusion and how
your role as president and howyour campus, uh, are addressing
(24:43):
those issues.
So thank you very much and toour listeners, thank you for
joining us.
If you want the Commission tohighlight the efforts of your
institution in a future podcast,then please visit M S C H
e.org/pillars of change tosubmit your suggestion on behalf
(25:09):
of the Middle States Commissionon Higher Education and our
guest, Dr.
Wayne Frederick I'm Dr.
Carl Person saying, thank you.
And please have a great day.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
[inaudible].
[inaudible]
Dr. Carl Person (00:16):
Welcome to the Pillars of Change podcast
presented by the Middle StatesCommission on Higher Education.
I am Commissioner Dr.
Carl Person a public memberserving on the Executive
Committee of the Commission anda former NASA official.
I would like to thank you forjoining me for the Commission's
(00:38):
continued series of podcasts,focusing on the topics of
diversity, equity, andinclusion.
The Middle States Commission onHigher Education is closely
aligned with the ensuring trustand instilling confidence in
higher education.
As an institutional accreditor,the Commission prides itself on
(01:00):
advocating for honest,self-reflection that results in
meaningful change at ourinstitutions.
And because the Commissionrecognizes that it holds an
important voice and space withinthe higher education community,
this podcast series spotlightshighly effective institutional
(01:21):
practices that have made adifference in the lives of our
students through diversity,equity, and inclusion
initiatives.
Today, we are talking with Dr.
Wayne Frederick President ofHoward University.
A distinguished scholar andadministrator Dr.
Frederick has advanced HowardUniversity's commitment to
(01:44):
student opportunity, academicinnovation, workforce
development, public service, andfiscal stability.
Under his leadership.
Howard is t hat the forefront ofdriving the conversation on
issues of diversity, equity, andinclusion, not to mention now
(02:06):
having one of the most famousalumni in the world, Vice
President of the United States,Kamala Harris, and I know a
wonderful celebration is ongoingat Howard.
So welcome Dr.
Frederick and thank you forjoining me today.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (02:23):
All right.
Thanks for having me.
I appreciate it.
Dr. Carl Person (02:26):
So we're going to jump right into the
questions.
What is your sense of race,diversity, and inclusion in our
country today?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (02:35):
Yeah, you know, I think, um, you know,
today what we are experiencingand seeing, um, I think is that
you eruption of what has beenunder the surface.
So it's always existed.
So almost like you you've had avolcano that has been spitting
some ash, uh ashes for some timeand now you have a major
(02:56):
eruption.
I think.
So it's always been there.
The rumblings have been takingplace, and I think a certain
segment of our society, uh, tobe quite honest, has ignored it
for one reason or another.
Um, and that now I think has,has burst into the open.
I do think we have to also makesome distinctions, some
distinctions between race andethnicity.
(03:18):
Uh, you know, I think oftentimeswe use the terms
interchangeably, but we have torecognize, especially as we
become, uh, such a smaller worldbecause of the connectivity, um,
who the types of people who areinteracting with one another and
what happens as a result reallychanges, um, you know, the, the
(03:38):
construct of, of the idea ofrace as a genetic profile or
genetic descendancy versus anethnicity in terms of how people
identify and their culture,their cultural and environmental
, um, compass.
And, and then when you talkabout, um, you know, inclusion
and equity, uh, again, you talkabout something different than
(04:00):
it has to be, more than justice,because it's not just about, um,
giving people something fornothing, but it's about being
fear.
It's about, um, living in a morejust society that recognizes the
humanity in all of us, which Ithink should be the umbrella,
uh, for any discussion on theseissues.
That there's a humanity in allof us that has to be respected,
(04:25):
um, really revered and to bequite honest, um, really held
up.
Dr. Carl Person (04:31):
Excellent.
And I think your discussion ofdefining the issues of race,
diversity, and inclusion asseparate entities, but it leads
me to my next question.
What role does higher educationplay in enhancing or altering
the conversation of diversityand inclusion on individual
campuses?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (04:51):
You know, I think higher education plays a
critical role because you haveyoung people in their formative
years, um, who will go on tobecome leaders in our society.
You have faculty who have spenta lot of time researching
issues, accumulating a lot ofknowledge.
And so you really have theperfect, um, cauldron as it were
(05:15):
for all of the ingredients thatcome together and form.
Um, what I think could be agreat solution.
However, what has happened iswe've become, um, I think a bit
technocratic for lack of abetter description around giving
people the technical informationthey need and knowledge.
(05:35):
Uh, we started talking aboutskillsets and credentialing, but
what we in doing that, I thinkall of us, I, I, I support, but
what I think that has some hasprobably taken away some
attention from, um, is the factthat we are in a lot of ways,
the solution, for big socialissues.
(05:56):
And the way that we promote thatis by making young people who
recognize that if they worktogether, even if they disagree
politically or they havedifferent religious beliefs.
So they, they are from differentethnicities, that there is a
magic in critical thinking andcritical discussion that results
in bigger solutions.
(06:17):
And I think as our higher edinstitutions, we have to play a
role in and making sure that theyoung people who come to us have
an appreciation of the biggerproblems and the fact that they
actually may represent thesolution, but they don't do that
as individuals.
They do that as members of alarger team.
And that team right now today,uh, is the human race.
Dr. Carl Person (06:41):
Excellent.
I think I just recently readsomewhere where Howard was named
the number one privateinstitution in social mobility
or something like
Dr. Wayne Frederick (06:50):
That.
That's correct.
That's absolutely correct.
Dr. Carl Person (06:52):
Yes.
So let's move on.
So during the past year or so,we frequently heard the
following two statements,statements of support are
important to solidify theposition of the college or
university.
Actions and engagement are thehallmarks of institutional
position and change.
(07:14):
So do you see those twostatements separately or sort of
, um, look at them together?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (07:21):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
Uh, the presidency of alluniversities, I think has become
a very complex and complicated.
Uh, we want our presidents to doeverything and we often do not,
um, undo the presidency from thepresident.
(07:42):
And I think that's an importantdistinction.
The presidency of a universityis very different from the
president who may hold thatposition at the time.
And what we want to see in ourpresident is an expression from
the presidency that takes awaytheir humanity to some extent we
want that person to be amechanical, um, purveyor of
(08:04):
messages.
And I think that's why we end upwith these statements as opposed
to, if we would allow ourpresidents to get back to what
they used to be the embodimentof the culture in our
universities.
I think then we would give somemore latitude on what that
expression and then thesubsequent action is.
(08:27):
Um, and I think that, that wehave to start, I think, um,
letting our presidents, uh, leadand take that appropriately in
the society that they used to.
I mean, you think of a FatherHesburgh and you place them in
this time.
And I think often of not justwhat he would say, but what he
(08:47):
would subsequently do and yetit's it then latitude, right?
He didn't have to be a socialscientist.
So, you know, he didn't have tobe, um, the, the person who
understood race theory the best,you know, all of those things in
one statement, that'simpossible.
Uh, but I think he would havebeen at the forefront of calling
(09:08):
for justice.
It would have been at theforefront for calling for
change.
Then he would have been at theforefront for setting up
structures to do that.
But I think that the latitudethat is given to presidents
today, um, isn't quite therehaving said that there are some
who do it, let me just be clear.
You know, I think PresidentMcGuire at Trinity is an
example.
(09:28):
Um, some of us run very publicprivate universities like I do.
And that latitude in some waysis constrained, unfortunately.
Dr. Carl Person (09:38):
Yes, absolutely.
So your response leads medirectly to my next question.
What role does the college oruniversity president play in
diversity and inclusion, both oncampus and the surrounding
communities.
And I know you being there inthe Shaw area of DC, which is
really the heart of the city.
(10:01):
Uh there's.
There's been change in yourarea.
So how do you react to thatquestion?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (10:07):
Yeah, so I, you know, I'll tell you, I
think, I think the president, itstarts with the president, it
starts with his leadership andalso we have to be the first
thing I think you have to do todo is to be honest with what is
the institution that you'rerunning, what are its strengths
and its weaknesses that'softentimes we, uh, we are
(10:29):
resistant to speak truth topower as it were.
Right.
So for instance, I was speakingabout my experience at Howard
when I started, um, I had onewoman Dean, right?
All the teaching schools andcolleges, and anybody would
argue that Howard's DNA issocial justice.
Well, if it is, how could youhave 70% undergrad or, um,
(10:50):
undergrads as a woman and youhave one woman Dean.
So I decided that that was myissue.
So all of my search committees,have gender balance, everybody
has to do unconscious biastraining and competency,
cultural competency training.
And I don't interview finalistsunless one of them is a woman.
Now, nine of my deans are women.
(11:12):
And so it has to start, I think,with the leadership.
The second thing I would sayit's maybe viewed as a bit
controversial.
I don't necessarily believe indiversity and inclusion
officers.
And let me be clear about this.
Um, I think the people who dothat work do fantastic work, but
my point is that if you areserious about it, then it should
(11:34):
reside in the president'sportfolio.
You shouldn't have to create aseparate diversity and inclusion
office or officer, uh, to do itthat still suggests that it's
probably not necessarily yourpriority.
I think if the president takesthat on, as this is my
responsibility to fit that senseof fair, very different message,
everybody else in theorganization, if the president
(11:56):
is at those meetings is talkingabout it, then every statement
he or she makes, I think itcomes in for.
And then when you, then when,after you've done your own self
examination and make sure thatyour house is in order, you can
speak to the wider public oneabout what you've done, but also
about what you want to see interms of the change, right?
So the change has to start withus and then you have to do it
(12:18):
on, you mentioned.
Shaw.
And in fact, the neighborhood isgentrified and that's true.
So what I did early on in mypresidency is I invited the
neighborhood into the universityand I had them sit with my
faculty, my students, myadministrators, and myself, and
we had a conversation aboutwhat, Howard is, right.
There was an education that wasrequired to let them know what
(12:41):
the university was and why itwas here.
And I think that that has provento be fruitful.
Dr. Carl Person (12:46):
Excellent.
That's a very, uh, uh, I waspleased to hear your
conversation about the wholeposition of a diversity and
inclusion officer.
That's a, that's an interestingpoint you made.
Um, but that leads me really tomy next question.
So what have been your greatestopportunities and challenges in
(13:07):
advancing your efforts on yourcampus?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (13:10):
Yeah, well, you know, clearly I think the
opportunity of gender, theopportunity around where our
blind spots may be because we'repredominantly African-American
right.
Um, or LGBTQ positions and thatcommunity and trying to lift up
that community.
I, so, so they had differentways to look at it.
Uh, we're working right now on arelationship with Gallaudet for
(13:34):
instance and where I'd like myfreshmen students in their
freshman experience class tohave to interact with Gallaudet
students.
That's a different type ofdiscrimination and disability,
but I think it could be powerful, uh, for them to learn from
students who are deaf and, and,uh, I unable to communicate and
(13:54):
the way that we communicate, butlive in a broader society that
doesn't accommodate them.
Well, I think it would be greatfor my students who may be
marginalized because of theircolor, their skin and ethnicity,
to hear that, you know, how dothese young people navigate the
classroom?
How do they navigate jobs, youknow, et cetera.
(14:14):
And I think that that did bringa different sensitization to the
experience of the Howardstudent.
And so I think that as a bigopportunity for us to look at
differently, marginalizedcommunities, and really give our
students a b road experience.
And I would say in terms ofchallenge, the challenge I have
is the challenge of the broadersociety is facing today.
(14:38):
And what d oes that challenge?
The challenge that the b roadersociety is facing to be quite
honest is the challenge of, u h,culture and c ulture.
U h, quite frankly, is simplytolerated behavior.
And over the past four years,we've tolerated the, I w ould, I
w ould call the dehumanizing ofpeople.
Right?
We've tolerated getting onsocial media and saying whatever
(15:01):
you want about somebody else.
We've tolerated calling peoplenames, we've tolerated,
disrespecting, you know, theoffice, you don't expect
behavior of a certain kind andcertain officers.
And unfortunately ouruniversities are not immune to
that.
And I think that whether peoplel ike the b ehavior or not,
we've normalized it.
And I think that that is a bigchallenge, for us b ringing
(15:23):
forward to, to reverse thattrend.
Dr. Carl Person (15:27):
Thank you for that response.
I do have a follow-up, this ismore of a, um, just to get your
insights on what Howard and whatyou're doing beyond your campus.
And this really relates to, I'venoticed that you have received
some really nice gifts, uh, overthe last year.
(15:48):
And I'll just highlight a coupleof those, uh, the one you
received from a gift to open awomen's center.
And you've also received a giftfor ethical leadership and
racial justice initiative, andyou've received a gift for a
(16:10):
nonprofit leadership program,but I think on top of all of
that is a gift you receive fromMacKinzie Scott.
Just talk a little bit about howthose gifts will be used to help
broaden this whole discussionabout, uh, diversity and
inclusion.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (16:27):
Uh, so, and like I said, um, you know, my,
my approach is always, let'smake sure that we're doing the
things we need to do and womengender issues, um, it's
something we needed to elevateon our campus.
And so that sense, it's criticalthat Jarpa Dawuni who is, uh,
um, and a faculty member inpolitical science has really led
(16:50):
that charge.
I've been engaging andinteracting with her over the
course of a few years.
I, I recognize her commitmentand, uh, where we would go.
And so, uh, we were reallyaggressive about fundraising to
kind of, to help support that.
And so that, that's how thatcame about with respect to, you
know, the other gifts.
I think the primary issue withthe other gifts is that we've
(17:13):
been aggressively trying to tellour story and be consistent
about that.
Uh, we sent moreAfrican-Americans to medical
school than anyone else we'vetrained and graduated more
African-American physicians thanany other single institution in
America.
Uh, if you look at Harvard's MBAprogram, um, over the past 50
(17:34):
years, the number one supplierof African-Americans or black
students to their MBA program,uh, was Harvard undergrad,
number two, Howard we see youlook at STEM PhD.
I mean, you go down the lineAfrican-American lawyers, I
mean, you go down the line.
We are very much at theforefront of diversifying a
large number of fields.
(17:57):
And so we've been out making theargument that it's not just a
numbers game, but the quality ofthe people that we've been
putting out has been making thesociety a better society.
And if that is what people areinterested in, that they should
invest in Howard.
And so that has been, ourapproach has been effective.
I think when I first took overthe presidency, what I needed to
(18:19):
do was to make sure that we werein better fiscal ground, that we
were performing betteracademically.
And that our research enterprisewas, was trending over activity
that we could be proud of.
And those things, you know, as,you know, they take time, I
don't, you know, universitiesare more like flotillas as
opposed to catamaran, so theydon't all have to add sharp
(18:42):
angles.
It takes a while to round thatcorner.
We've rounded that bend.
Dr. Carl Person (18:47):
Yeah.
One of the ones that I didn'tmention was your recent award
from Amazon to diversifyHollywood.
Dr. Wayne Frederick (18:54):
Yeah.
So this is part of, um, myworkforce development vision.
Uh, we went out the very firstmonth I was named president.
I went out to Silicon Valley andmet with several companies and
pitched the fact that if theywere going to complain about the
lack of, uh, the ability to codein the African American student,
(19:17):
and they should take aresponsibility to help us
improve that skillset.
And so my, um, my, my proposalwas why don't I send my students
out to you, embed them in yourculture, have the Google
engineers and the Howard facultyco-teach because I also want my
faculty to be better.
(19:38):
And, uh, let's, let's see whathappens.
And, uh, you know, Google tookme up on that, um, proposal and
it did that.
And now, uh, we, we havestudents that place, uh, not
just at Google, but throughoutSilicon Valley at a greater
propensity, we've since spreadthat from Howard west was to the
other eight HCBUs and theHispanic serving institutions.
(20:00):
And so with HowardEntertainment, the idea was, I
want to see, uh, studentsgreen-lighting films when they
graduate.
Of course, I want to seeAfrican-Americans in the
C-suite.
I want to see them in front ofcamera and behind the camera.
And so we've sent students outfrom our law school, business,
communications, and finance, uh,to this program at Amazon studio
(20:24):
.
By again, they being co-taughtby professionals, practitioners
in those different fields andour faculty, and, uh, are in
second iteration and it's, it'sgoing fantastic.
Um, you know, we ultimately, aspart of our Howard Entertainment
, uh, you know, vision is toultimately be able to have a
production company as it wouldto make until our own stories.
(20:47):
And I think that, that, um, youknow, would, would be a great
combination of, of this vision.
Dr. Carl Person (20:53):
Excellent.
So that's gone to the nextquestion.
How can the lessons learned from2020, you know, the pandemic BLM
, the elections, et cetera,advanced your thoughts about
diversity, equity and inclusion,and how are they, or can those
lessons be applied to Howard?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (21:15):
You know, I think, uh, the first lesson that
I hope we learn, I think is avery simple lesson.
That is one that I think we knewall along.
And that is that, uh, the valuein each of us is not measured by
how well, the color of our skin,our station, or position in
life.
But it's as said by severalpeople born before us, what must
(21:39):
be important as the content ofour character and the fact that
we maximize our ability to loveeach other and to see the
humanity in each other.
And I think that that is stillthe basic lesson.
It doesn't matter where we arein society.
It doesn't matter howtechnologically advanced we
become that's still is thefundamental lesson of our human
(22:02):
existence.
And now that we are here, Ithink sometimes you need a
reeducation as it wererepetition is the key to
learning.
I think people say, andsometimes you need to, to have
major, um, major issues, accruefor us to be reminded of what we
should be focusing on.
And hopefully that's what willcome out of this, that we will
(22:24):
get back, uh, to doing the workof, of lifting up each other.
Dr. Carl Person (22:30):
That's so key, especially in the environment
that we've been dealing withhere in this country, we have to
uplift one another.
So finally, what do you hopethat the impact is upon your
students from your institution'sefforts on diversity, equity and
inclusion?
Dr. Wayne Frederick (22:49):
Yeah.
I hope that the impact would bethat, uh, they continue to do
what they've been doing.
I think the silver lining hereis always going to our students,
um, almost to the studentservice and what we say to
students as you come here to geta degree, you come here to get
an education.
And the way that education worksis that you then go out into the
(23:10):
society and you change thesociety by providing service
based on the knowledge.
And the truth you've acquiredhere.
Right?
And so it's about getting aneducation as opposed to a
degree.
So with that in mind, what Ihope is that all the students
who we see in the issues ofdiversity and inclusion, et
(23:31):
cetera, that they ultimatelywould see the humanity, uh, in
that, in those lessons.
And they ultimately would seethat the biggest tool that they
have to go out and apply withtheir knowledge is love love for
each other and love for seeing amore complete society.
And I think if they continue todo that as they have been, um, I
do think, uh, that we can bevery optimistic about what our
(23:55):
higher education institutions ingeneral are going to do to
change the society.
Dr. Carl Person (24:01):
Well, we truly need more love.
And, uh, and I thank you forbeing one of those change agents
and Howar University truly is,um, producing students who, who
change the world.
And we see one in our new Vice-President that is such a
(24:23):
wonderful thing to see.
Well, Dr.
Frederick, I truly do want tothank you for joining me this
afternoon, and I trulyappreciate your willingness to
share your thoughts on race,diversity and inclusion and how
your role as president and howyour campus, uh, are addressing
(24:43):
those issues.
So thank you very much and toour listeners, thank you for
joining us.
If you want the Commission tohighlight the efforts of your
institution in a future podcast,then please visit M S C H
e.org/pillars of change tosubmit your suggestion on behalf
(25:09):
of the Middle States Commissionon Higher Education and our
guest, Dr.
Wayne Frederick I'm Dr.
Carl Person saying, thank you.
And please have a great day.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
[inaudible].
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