February 6, 2025 • 38 mins
Representative Adam Kinzinger lays it all out on the podcast, painting a grim picture of the current political landscape, likening it to the decline of Rome—how charming. His take is that the backstops that used to reign in chaos, like the DOJ and the military, are vanishing faster than a magician’s rabbit, leaving everyone feeling a bit unmoored. He’s particularly miffed at the Democrats for being caught with their pants down, failing to whip up a solid strategy in the face of rising extremism. The underlying theme? Fear is the name of the game, and it's driving many a politician to choose loyalty to their party over their principles—how original. Kinzinger’s call to arms? We need to collectively shoulder the responsibility of saving democracy while not losing our minds in the process, because let’s face it, that’s the real trick.
Navigating the turbulent waters of contemporary American politics, Adam Kinzinger, a former congressman and a vocal critic of the Trump administration, spills the tea on the current state of affairs. He kicks things off with a rather dismal assessment of the political landscape, likening it to the waning days of the Roman Empire where the Senate seemed to exist solely to serve the whims of an emperor—quite the image, right? Kinzinger expresses his frustration not just with Trump’s reign, which he believes has descended into a reality more absurd than a bad sitcom, but also with the Democratic Party's apparent impotence in countering these developments. He points out that the Democrats seem to be caught with their proverbial pants down, failing to mount any substantial response to a crisis they had months to prepare for. His dire prediction? We’re in for a rough ride, and the question looms: how much damage will be done before the tide turns?
Takeaways:
- Representative Kinzinger expresses deep concerns about the current political climate, comparing it to late Rome where senators serve the emperor's whims rather than the people's needs.
- The discussion highlights the absence of traditional checks and balances in American politics, as Kinzinger notes the diminishing role of military and law enforcement as a stabilizing force.
- He argues that the political landscape has shifted dramatically, with many once-respected figures now compromising their values to align with extremist factions.
- Kinzinger stresses the importance of maintaining hope and collective action, encouraging listeners to take a break when overwhelmed, rather than giving up entirely.
- The former representative reflects on the need for a centrist coalition within the Democratic Party to attract voters disillusioned by extremism on both sides of the aisle.
- He emphasizes that winning elections is crucial for implementing policies, warning Democrats against alienating potential allies in the political sphere.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- USAID
- Elon Musk
- Amazon
- Penguin
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Our guest today isRepresentative Adam Kinzinger.
Welcome, RepresentativeKinzinger, how are you?
I'm good.
Good to be with you guys.
Thanks for having me.
Where do you think we are with Trump?
What are your general thoughtsand any impressions that you want
(00:22):
to share with us in the audience?
Yeah, look, we, you know, Ihad like two scenarios after Trump
won that I said this is goingto be, it's either going to be, you
know, not great, but we'll getthrough it, you know, whatever, or
it's going to be extremely badbeyond our wildest dreams.
And I think we're in theextremely bad beyond our wildest
dreams.
(00:43):
And what, what concerns me,you know, as we're recording this,
all these, we're getting allthis indication that there's, you
know, these Republicansenators will be voting for RFK and
Tulsi Gabbard people that wethought wouldn't, you know, actually
Thom Tillis was supposed tovote against the Secretary of Defense,
Pete Hegseth, and then in thelast minute change that.
(01:03):
You know, there was some angerabout it, but there's this intimidation
and it feels like we're in,it's like late Rome where the Senate
existed simply to do the workand the bidding of the emperor.
And it feels like that.
I think the thing thatconcerns me more than anything is,
you know, we always knew orassumed that there would be a backstop
to any bad thing that happens.
(01:24):
Right.
If somebody breaks the law,there's the DOJ or the FBI.
You know, when I'm sitting inmy office on January six, I knew
that in the very worst casescenario, there's the US Military
that can clear the bills building.
I feel like those backstopsare gone.
And, and unfortunately, I feellike right now the Democrats have
been caught flat footed.
And I'm angry about thatbecause they've had three months
(01:45):
to come up with a plan and itfeels like there's just nothing going
on.
And happy to talk more aboutthat, but I feel like we're in a
really concerning moment.
And I guess I'll say, youknow, my hope is, and I guess my
assumption still is thatthey're going to go too far and there's
going to be a backlash.
But the question is, when is that?
How much damage?
(02:06):
And, you know, do people justkind of lose their belief in honesty
and government?
That's a concern of mine.
Yeah.
What do you think happenedwith, I mean, like, you know, you
and I both served in the AirForce, and there, there are other
folks like, you know, I'm an attorney.
My first trial I ever did inthe military was in 1984, and my
opponent was a young captainfrom South Carolina named Lindsey
(02:26):
Graham.
Oh, man.
And then later, when I was thesenior attorney at Columbus, Mississippi,
one of the reservists in myoffice was Roger Wicker.
So those are two people that,you know, military backgrounds, that
they're both attorneys orsmart people.
And I know they know betterthan doing what they're doing.
So what do you think happenedthat made, you know, good people
(02:49):
go bad?
Yeah, it's crazy.
So, listen, I think it's acouple of things, but, but most importantly
here, you know, with LindseyGraham, I mean, the guy is apolit
political animal and all heever wants to be, all he ever could
see himself as being Senator.
Now, he's different than a lotof people, but, you know, for him,
he's a great, He's a goodpolitician in that he understands
(03:10):
what he needs to do to survive.
And I think that's got a lotto do with it.
He also, look, I mean, let'sbe clear.
He needs an alpha.
McCain was his alpha.
And then, you know, Trumpbecame his Alpha.
He needs somebody that he cankind of lean on for whatever reason,
I think, you know, and Wicker again.
So here's the broader issueon, you know, why is it that so many
of my colleagues in the Houseand so many in the Senate.
(03:31):
Look, I think people fear morethan they fear death.
They fear being kicked out ofa tribe.
I mean, if you think about it,I think 8 out of 10 adults seeing
a kid, you know, about to gethit by a train would jump in front
of the train and throw the kidout of the way to save their life.
But very few are willing to goagainst their tribe because we're
tribal people, we're tribal animals.
(03:52):
And I'll tell you, somebodythat went through it losing, when
your entire friend group isbasically based on politics and all
of a sudden now you're goingto turn against them.
That's a hard decision to make.
And I think there's lot to dowith that.
And I think there's a really,a broader issue specifically in the
military to talk about.
But I think on our, on our,the politician side, a lot of it
is, look, you lose a lot whenyou turn against, when you turn against
(04:15):
your party.
Your party is basically yournation in your mind.
You mentioned the military.
I'm curious about yourthoughts with.
I mean, it really concerns mewhat's happening with, with Mark
Milley and the effort to goafter him.
And Pete Hedge, Seth is theSecretary of Defense.
It's just in my view ahorrible choice.
I was always a big advocate.
You know, I was a lawprofessor for a while and I encouraged
(04:38):
a lot of young folks toconsider a career in the military.
Right now, I don't know that Iwould do that.
The commander in chief we'vegot and a secretary of defense, it
both can't meet the standardswe demand of an 18 year old recruit.
Yeah.
What are your views on themilitary now?
That's right.
Look, it's, it's a realconcern because again, the backstop
we always had like, you know,if the crap hits the fan, it's the
(05:01):
end of the world.
You know, from a governmentperspective we always knew that we
could trust the military andyou know, again, worst case scenarios,
the military could be the backstops.
And I, I don't think thatfeeling exists.
And I, I have a big concernabout the fact that, look, you know,
when I, I just retired about ayear ago from the Guard and a lot
of the guys I flew with, andspecifically by the way out of Mississippi,
(05:23):
you know, these are lieutenantcolonels that are, you know, I'm
flying an airplane with themand they're telling me qanon conspiracies
that they believe again,college educated generally, I guess
I'll call them, you know, highranking, kind of feel great office
that are buying into these conspiracies.
And I think what's happened inthe military, it's a number of things,
but I think part of it is thisbroader issue of, and I think there's
(05:46):
a little criticism that goesto the left into the Democrats on
this as well as men in general.
For the last 10 or 15 or 20years, really 10 or 15 years, men
have not provided or talkedabout what it is to be a man to the
younger generation of male,you know, I actually think masculine
traits are great.
I think a masculine trait isdefending the defenseless, punching
(06:08):
up, not down, you know,protecting your family, fighting
for a cause that's masculinein my mind.
And unfortunately over thelast 10 or 15 years there was this
kind of movement that we hadto be ashamed of being men.
Everything was toxic, toxic masculinity.
And I think what happened isthe younger generation of men felt
very isolated, they felt alone.
(06:29):
They didn't know what theirpurpose in this world was.
And then a guy comes along andactually is toxically masculine.
It has toxic masculinity.
Donald Trump and says, look,here's what masculinity is.
It's yelling, it's it'stweeting in all caps, it's being
mean to women, it's being racist.
And in the vacuum of anexample, men were drawn to that.
(06:50):
And I think that's why we asmen, by the way, have to fight back
against that and provide andtalk about what real masculinity
is.
But I think some of that hasleaked into the military where, you
know, obviously the militaryis largely male.
As it's gotten younger, you'reseeing the same trends there.
And I think there's a lot of,and, and it's a real concern.
I mean, sure, there are stillsome Democrats in the military.
(07:12):
I'm not saying that, butthere's this like perception that
in order to be tough, you haveto be a Republican.
And I actually thinkRepublicans of late are the whiniest,
weakest bunch of people out there.
Yeah, you mentioned the, youknow, people you flew with that are,
you know, educated, seeminglyintelligent people.
You know, it seems like welive in a world now where, you know,
you lies or truth, facts arefiction, cruelty's Christian vices,
(07:36):
virtue.
How do you reason with peoplethat are detached from reality?
Yeah, it's, it's, what's theold Bible verse?
It's like woe to him thatcalls good evil and evil good.
And I feel like that's, that'sthe moment we're in.
And how do you reason withthem is like, look, part of it, I've
come to believe many of themyou can't reason with.
Let's just, let's be clearabout that.
And you know, they, they theirhighest calling.
(08:00):
And I think this is a resultof 20 to 30, actually 30 to 40 years
of AM radio, Fox News, youknow, the Internet of just the enemy
of you is the left.
The left is the enemy.
And that's what people havebeen taught to believe.
And so even when it comes tothings like QAnon, even if you put
them on CIA truth juice andthey're like, yeah, I don't believe
(08:22):
the QAnon stuff, they'll stilladvocate for it because it's no longer
about actual issues.
It's just about my tribeagainst the tribe that I hate.
I think that is, is a big partof it.
Secondarily, I do think we'vegotten to a point in this country
where we're going to have totouch the stove.
You know, you have a, I have athree year old, you have a toddler
(08:45):
that is determined to touchthe stove.
You can try to stop him.
And I think for the last lookhowever many years, the same Republicans
in Congress, you know, thesame Democrats, most Democrats like,
have been protecting thecountry from the consequences of
Donald Trump and people likeDonald Trump.
And I think we're going tohave to touch the stove.
I mean, that's why, look, I'magainst the Trump's talking about,
(09:07):
but there's part of me that'slike maybe we need to just do the
tariff.
So finally people can see thatwhat this guy is saying is bs and
unfortunately, I fear that'sgoing to have to be what we, what
we have to wake up.
Because I'm not sure and I'dbe curious if you guys disagree.
I'm not sure.
Reasoned arguments with anumber of these people.
Now, there's a lot that, youknow, maybe voted for Trump that
can be reasoned with.
I'm not saying that, but thehardcore, I think it's just about
(09:30):
the left is the enemy andthere's nothing you can tell me otherwise.
Oh, I think we agree with youon that front.
I think it's very difficult tobreak through with facts with this
gang.
What do you think the wayforward is for thoughtful folks that
realize we're in the middle ofa shitstorm, but you know, we're
looking for some hope somehow.
How do we get through this together?
Yeah, I mean, I'll say this.
If I didn't believe there washope, honestly, I'd stop doing this.
(09:53):
I would, I, I'd move to adifferent country or at least do
something else.
Right.
Because I, I have to worryabout my mental health as well as
everybody does.
And you know, again, I reallybelieve that if you Quantum Leap,
one of my favorite show fromthe 90s, if you quantum leap like
five or ten years forward,this country will be past Donald
Trump and there won't be verymany people alive that will ever
(10:16):
admit they.
So because I think this isgoing to end so poorly that, that,
that's the case.
So that's the, that's whatgets me driving is I know that, you
know, in, in historical years,I'm 46 years old, I look back and
say four years of my life waslike, it goes by enough.
And so this four years will goby in a flash, even though it doesn't
necessarily feel like it.
And we'll have an opportunityto correct this on the other end
(10:39):
or to, to, to make the countryas we think it should be made, but
that's not automatic.
And, and I want to be clearthat that's why it's important for
us to keep, to keep working at It.
It's going to be things likedoing these podcasts, like putting
out statements on Twitter or,like, talking to the people, you
know?
But the other thing I'll say,which I think is really important,
is take the burden.
(11:01):
I say this to everybody,including myself.
Take the burden to save the country.
Take it off your shoulder.
Now, what I mean by that is weall carry around this, like, feeling
that, gosh, like, there issomething out there that I can do
that will save this country.
I just don't know what it is.
And so we find ourselvesspinning our wheels, throwing out,
(11:22):
you know, 20 tweets a day,writing, whatever, because we think,
you know, there's this humannature that it's like we're going
to strike gold at some pointand be the person that saves this
country.
And I've got to be honest,we're not.
None of us are.
But as a collective, we can.
And how do you win as a collective?
You take the burden to savethe country off your shoulders so
that you can stay in the fight.
(11:43):
Because how many people.
I know a ton.
And I'm sure you guys all knowa ton that were great warriors for
the cause, that are not.
That have given up, that havesaid they don't.
They're not paying attentionto news anymore.
They're not listening towhat's happening because they just
hit their breaking point.
And, you know, Mo, you know,especially with your past work, people
have breaking points, and.
And that can be brought on,you know, through different means.
(12:03):
So let's not.
Let's not get ourselves to that.
Let's maintain a sustainableway that we can fight in this together.
And.
And I think that's the bestadvice I can.
Don't give up hope.
And if you feel like you'reabout to quit, take some time off,
because the, you know, yournext tweet is not going to save the
country, but your involvementand you staying together.
And I would just add, it's.
(12:24):
It's not just the country I get.
I have friends in France andthe UK are urgently sending me emails
as if I'm in government or something.
What are you doing to help?
What are you doing to stopthis guy?
I mean, what.
Well, I filed some lawsuits,but there's not a lot I can do as
this crazy guy in North Carolina.
But.
So one more question aboutpolitics here, Elon Musk.
(12:46):
And by the way, can I just sayreal quick, thanks for.
Thanks for running againstthat dude.
What a.
What a.
Thank you.
I just have to say that that's.
To Mo.
Yeah.
Mo Davis.
Oh yeah, Mo, that's right.
Your buddy Cawthorn.
Yeah.
You know the worst part aboutCawthorn Rivers on Kinzinger, he
played as if he got his injuryin the military.
Yeah, yeah.
(13:07):
And that he did.
Disgusting.
Yep, he did.
He did.
He played that.
And he really kind of theearly line of this.
He was on the kind of thefront lines of this suspend reality
Donald Trump stuff.
And the crazy thing is hecould have been so good.
Right.
If people like this would goand he could have advocated for those
with disabilities.
He could have, you know,fought for a healthy conservative
(13:27):
future.
There's all these people,there's a lot of people without test
me but there's all thesepeople with talent that just blow
it on whatever this cult.
But sorry, I interrupted your question.
No, no, that's anytime we canbash on Cawthorn or, or Lauren Boebert,
we're all, trust me, same Moand I probably know know more about
those two individuals thanthey know about themselves.
(13:49):
But so not by choice.
Yeah, choice, exactly.
So one thing that's on my minda lot lately and I think a lot of
folks is Elon Musk.
Do you have a relationshipwith this guy?
Have you met him?
His is, has he supported you?
And if not, you know, how dowe shut this down?
This is.
(14:10):
Yeah, this is crazy.
Yeah.
And also I do hesitate.
I'm sorry I didn't say thankyou for the work you guys are doing
all altogether.
And I think it's importantthat we take on, you know, individuals
that are acidic and you know,with Hawthorne race for instance,
we, my organization countryfirst got involved with turning out
Democrats to vote in theRepublican primary to vote against
(14:31):
him.
And I think we've got to thinkstrategically like that and then
go after in the general elections.
This is, this is all going tobe important, particularly David
and I got.
Reprimanded by the Democratshere because, you know, we did the
exact same thing.
We said let's play by the rules.
And the rules permit you toregister as unaffiliated and vote
in the Republican primary.
I mean the numbers here just,you know, Democrats can have a really
(14:53):
hard time winning, so why nottake him out out in the primary?
And the Democrats here justpounced on us saying, oh, you're,
you're treating this like it'sa game.
Well, and this leads to abigger problem, by the way, which
is.
And this happened in Illinois too.
I mean, by the way, I wasn'tgoing to run again, but I got redistricted
out.
They didn't know I wasn't, butthe Democrats redistrict me out in
the middle of the January 6thstuff on that.
(15:14):
Look, on the Elon side ofthings, his brother actually supported
me.
And I don't know what hisbrother's up to now.
I don't know if he's, youknow, deep into the Elon stuff or
if he's still a little moresane than his brother.
You know, I.
I've read Elon's or the bookabout Elon, and his brother was always
kind of a calming force.
Elon, I'm going to be honestwith you, is one of the scarier individuals
(15:35):
out there because, you know,we all know the role of money in
politics.
And this guy spent 200, and Ithink the latest was $290 million
to elect Donald Trump.
And let's be clear.
He elected Donald Trump.
Donald Trump.
You know, if a bird would havesneezed west instead of East 2 Wednesdays
before the election, you know,Kamala would have won because it
(15:55):
was a 1% swing.
And, you know, anything canaffect that.
And so a $290 million campaignto turn out swing state voters certainly
did.
And now Donald Trump, whodoesn't care about the rule of law,
is letting him run ramshotover the federal government illegally,
by the way.
So I put out a videoyesterday, and actually it's.
It went viral.
(16:15):
It's gotten about 303 millionviews of me.
Just saying, look to theDemocrats, here's some free advice.
You guys need to, like, go tothese places where the doge, which
just to remind people, isn'teven real.
You know, where they're inthese organizations like usaid and
you guys need to demandentrance, and the Democrats did later
(16:36):
that day, and they weren't let in.
And I gotta tell you, youknow, when I was a congressman, if
I'd have gone to a federalbuilding and they wouldn't have let
me in, I would have made themarrest me because I had every right
to be in that building as a.
As a member of the U.
S.
House.
I don't know why they didn'tdo that.
They still, you know, that's agood start.
Pushing back against Elon,pushing back against Trump.
(16:57):
If you're in the minority, youhave one weapon in the House.
In the Senate, you've got, youknow, the filibuster, but in the
House, you have one weapon.
Your message.
That's it.
I'm sorry.
There's not much you can doexcept message.
And so that is what theDemocrats have got to be spending
their effort doing.
Now, obviously the numbers areso close in the House that there's
a little more they can do there.
(17:18):
But in terms of like fromNovember to this day, they should
have been coming up with aplan stand for what if Donald Trump
does this and Elon Musk doesthis, then what?
And they didn't.
And I don't know why.
But regardless, they didn't.
And so now it's aboutmessaging and with, with Elon and,
and the other thing, and I saythis as a former Republican who used
(17:38):
to be against lawsuits, right.
Donald Trump uses lawsuits.
His people use lawsuits.
We need to flood theadministration in lawsuits because
they are violating the law andthey need to be basically frozen
in place.
And so I would encourage that.
I saw your video yesterday andit was prescient.
And the problem is theDemocrats go there locked out.
(17:58):
Why don't they go right downto the street to a judge, get a judge's
order to go in the damn place.
Correct, correct.
And follow up instead of justmaking a big hoo ha out front, actually
go into the damn place.
No, you go ahead.
Yeah, so the, the thing that,the thing that kind of drove me nuts,
I don't fully know whathappened there because, you know,
I wasn't there.
(18:19):
I didn't see any live thing.
I just kind of read thearticle about it.
It again, if I was there, Iwould have been like trying to force
myself in.
I would have had them arrestme, which they wouldn't have done
or I'd have gone down, likeyou said, go down the street.
And even if they don't getthat order file to get that order
because you can't lock out thepeople that over like, yes, you can
(18:39):
tell me I can't come into theWhite House at the moment, but you
can't actually keep a memberof Congress out of the White House
long term.
You also can't.
You can keep them out ofclassified areas, but USAID isn't
classified.
It is incredible that they'reallowing this to happen.
And Tron Democrats, I've beenin the minority and there's a lot
of people that say you guysshould be doing more.
(19:00):
And we're like, we are.
You just don't see it.
But I do think thedemonstrable attempts to push back
are really important.
It's ironic that, you know, weworry so much about like China having
too much power in itsstrategic minerals or commerce, but
then you've got Elon, who iseffectively running the country,
controls the space program,get the brain implant Thing going
(19:24):
Starlink, Twitter, andeverybody seems fine with one guy,
you know, operating all thelevers of power.
Yep.
And it's in, it's.
He's the largest contractor tothe federal government.
The problem is, you know, Ithink the Biden administration should
have taken more action aboutthat, because when he made it clear
that he was, you know,involving himself in US Politics,
(19:45):
in overseas politics, they didn't.
Now, could they have done, Idon't know.
I mean, and honestly, look,he, he does own the space program.
That's a problem.
That's a, that's a, that's an issue.
Obviously, the Trumpadministration won't do anything.
And so, you know, look,there's conspiracies out there that
I don't buy, but I also don'tdismiss that, like, you know, taking
over the tax payment systemlike they're doing is, he's always
(20:08):
said he wants X to be apayment platform.
Everything that oligarchies dohas been done so far in what, you
know, two weeks.
So I guess it's not out of therealm to think that, you know, now
the oligarchs are going to bethe ones supplying the federal government.
And again, the thing thatstill, at least for now, is working
is the court system.
(20:28):
We need to fight this in the courts.
That's really the last fight.
Well, politically, but in thecourts, too.
Yeah.
You know, back in, you know,and I, he says, one reason I don't
gamble, I'm not really good at predicting.
But it seemed like in 2008,you know, when Obama won, it seemed
like a, a sea moment.
And I guess in hindsight itwas, but probably for the exact opposite
(20:49):
reason than I thought in 2008.
But to go from Obama in 2008to Trump in 2016, to go from hope
to hate so quickly, what doyou think happened?
How did we get there so fast?
Yeah, it's a great question.
Look, I do think there is,it's, it's, you know, when Obama
came in, there was the racialcomponent to it.
And I don't, I don't want tobe one that blames race and gender.
(21:11):
I think it plays a role.
I don't think it plays themain role.
And I think, you know, we'redoing a disservice to winning elections
in the future if we focus onlyon that, but it did.
And Obama comes in, he's ablack man, and that allows, you know,
the Fox News, the RushLimbaugh types to stir up animosity.
He's, he was obviously fairlyleft and, and had an air about him
(21:33):
that was kind of like, youknow, very inspirational.
But you also could feel likehe was out of touch with you.
And I think, and I don't thinkhe was out of touch, by the way,
but I think you couldmanipulate that into convincing the
Midwest, for instance, whichvoted largely for Obama, that he
doesn't care about you andhe's ignoring you.
And of course, we had massivecultural changes during that.
(21:55):
We had massive economicchanges and economic shifts, and
the Republicans were just better.
I was part of this and Ididn't realize what I was doing.
I can look back and see it now.
But the Republicans were partof this to say, look, you've been
abandoned by the Democrats.
It was great politics.
It was just bad for the country.
And, and I think that's taken hold.
And this is where I think it'sincumbent on the Democrats if I'm
(22:17):
giving advice to them.
And I recognize I'm not aDemocrat, although for the last two
election cycles, I votedstraight Democratic.
Take an interest in the LGBTstuff, like, great, we want to make
sure everybody is treatedfairly in this country.
But don't, I would say, don'tchannelize on identity politics.
I think identity politicsisn't working.
(22:38):
And, and focus on protecting everybody.
That's important.
But focus on also giving avoice in protecting the rural Americans,
the people that used to votefor you that now feel like you don't
care about them, like whateverthat is, to go in there and take
an interest and point outwhere Donald Trump's tariffs or whatever
(22:59):
are actually doing damage.
And here's the Democratic planto make your life better.
This is going to be a 10 yearto 15 year battle to win them back.
But I tell you what, it'salways going to be 10 or 15 years
away from when you start.
So you need to start todaybecause if you start in a year, it's
11 or 16 years.
I mean, it's weird.
So, you know, obviously I havea college degree.
(23:19):
College educated voters thatused to vote predominantly Republican
are now voting Democratic.
There has been a, a shift inthe electorate.
But if you were an economicvoter in the 80s for, I'm sorry,
if you were a social voter.
So if you were voting like forabortion or you were voting for whatever
Democratic social policieswere, you're still with the same
(23:40):
party, party.
You know, if you were aneconomic voter, you've switched.
I mean, again, collegeeducated are now voting Democratic
and the other way around.
So that the Democrats need toget in there and say, what is the
gusto that we lost.
How do we get that back?
And how do we care for these,you know, the minority populations
that we care about, while alsomaking it clear we're not caring
for somebody at the expense of you.
(24:01):
We just truly care for everybody.
You mentioned you're not aDemocrat, but you voted, you know,
Democratic in the last coupleof elections.
I'm curious what happens like,with, with you and Liz Cheney, Jo
Walsh, Jen Rubin, BillKristol, traditional Republicans
that, you know, now seem to bekind of outcast from your, your party.
I can't see any of youbecoming, you know, Democrat.
(24:23):
What happens with you folks?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a,that's really a question for Democrats
because, you know, what I'vesaid is like this, this country has
two parties, right?
And you know, people like mehave said I don't want to be associated
with the Republican Party anymore.
Now I'm maintaining my labelbecause it's important for the message
I have have.
It's important because Iactually am not the one that changed.
I mean, as Ronald Reagan, youknow, he used to say, the Democratic
(24:45):
Party left me.
In my case, the RepublicanParty left me.
You know, I was a rising starfor what, nine of my 12 years in
Congress and nothing about me changed.
Now I'm the biggest outcast.
And so the question for theDemocrats are, are you willing and
this is tough to do, trust me.
I'm not saying like this is easy.
Are you willing to have kindof center right or center people
(25:07):
in your coalition?
Are you willing to havesomebody who may not, not think the
exact same on abortion?
By the way, there's about ahundred different positions on abortion,
not two.
You know, are you willing tohave somebody like that as part of
your coalition to have difference?
Because honestly, look, youguys know this politics used to be
fun.
It actually used to beenjoyable to have a different view
(25:29):
than somebody else and kind ofdebate it and you know, and stick
with your position or changeor whatever.
And, and I think having acoalition of people that have different
views kind of on some of theseissues, broadly believe in democracy.
Look, as a military guy, youknow, look, you're in a trench.
The 5 meter target right nowis the threat to democracy.
(25:50):
The 30 meter target is thethings we disagree on.
I'm going to tell everybody inmy trench focus on the 5 meter target.
That's your only thing you'refocusing on until that's neutralized.
And so this coalition needs tobe broad.
It's awkward and I could seemyself as a Centrist Democrat, if
that's a welcome thing.
As of now it isn't.
But I think that's eitherwhere we go go or else we're going
(26:12):
to be politically homeless.
You think there's ever goingto be a lane for a third party?
Like here in North Carolina,for instance, the largest, you know,
registered block of voters areunaffiliated people that don't want
to be a Democrat or a Republican.
Yeah, I mean, look, I, here's,I would love it, by the way.
I want to be very clear.
I would love a third partybecause I think if you had like a
third party that was kind ofcentrist, it would actually drag
(26:34):
both parties to the middlebecause you'd have to build coalitions
that kind of existed back inthe day when you had conservative
and liberal Democrats andconservative and liberal Republicans.
But there's two big challengesto that.
One is simply the two partysystem has put up so many barriers
to that that it's, it's, it's tough.
And you know, in Illinois, Ivaguely for like 3 seconds thought,
(26:56):
should I run for Congress asan independent?
And I looked, and to get onthe ballot in Illinois as an independent,
I needed something like 5 or10,000 signatures on the petition
of people that have nevervoted in a primary, by the way.
Now, to get on as aRepublican, I needed 600.
So you can see the, thebarrier there.
The other big barrier is, andI kind of alluded to this, it's our
(27:17):
mental block, which is, look,let's say, you know, somebody's running
for president as a centristand everybody loves this idea.
And then it gets down to brasstacks and they're like, well, how
do you feel about abortion?
And that person says, well,I'm, I'm pro life or I'm pro choice.
And then all of a sudden thepeople in the centrist coalition
that are pro life are like, ohgosh, I can't vote if you're pro
choice.
And they, they default back tothe Republicans or the Democrats
(27:40):
go, oh gosh, I can't vote foryou if you're pro life and they default
back.
We've been programmed tobelieve that every issue has two
sides.
And like I said, it's veryrare that it does.
Most issues have about 50 to100 different positions and we have
to think complex like that.
I'm not sure if we're capableof it yet, but that's got to be how
we start to see things.
(28:00):
Yeah, I think Democrats havegot a, have, you know, having been
one my entire life and been acandidate staff behind the scenes.
You know, I think it's the farleft that drags us in a way that
we don't want to go.
And the problem is politics isset up for folks that have money.
I mean, if you're a countychair, you got to have time to do
these sorts of things.
And, you know, working classfolks don't have time to run a party.
(28:23):
So it ends up in the lap ofsomebody with a lot of free time
and probably some money.
Money.
And the same thing with candidates.
You know, the candidates endedup having to, you know, subsidize
a campaign and it ends upbeing the elite in the city or the
urban areas.
And God, that's just.
It's going to be really toughfor the Democrats to make any inroads.
And.
And then I think the otherpart of it, Adam, is that the Democrats
(28:46):
have a problem with winning.
Yeah.
They don't understand thatthat's what politics is about.
We can fight aboutimplementing all this shit later
on, but if you don't win,you're not going to have the opportunity
to do that.
That.
What's, what's your advice forDemocrats on that front?
Yeah, look, you know, it'sfunny because in the, in the aftermath
of, of this election, youknow, I've seen the comments from
(29:08):
the far left that are like,you know, Harris made a mistake by
having the Republicans, youknow, so featured in her campaign
and boy, if we'd have justgone further left, we'd have won.
Okay, that's not true.
But you know, the thing is, iswhen you actually look at the numbers,
a lot of Republicans did votefor Harris.
The problem is a lot ofDemocrats voted for Trump to.
And because we're in themiddle of this shift.
(29:30):
And so my warning to Democratsis as a guy that lived through a
nascent far right movement inour party that grew.
Now, obviously there was a lotof far right Tea Party everything
else, but like when I'mtalking about the Freedom Caucus,
the kind of super radicals, it grew.
And even though I fought themmy entire time in Congress, there
was this feeling that if wejust embrace them them, we can bring
(29:54):
them in and kind of turn theminto normal Republicans.
And what happened is it's liketrying to embrace cancer and hope
that the cancer becomes likeevery other regular cell in your
body.
It doesn't.
Cancer grows and it metastasizes.
Darkness spreads, it's hard tospread light, it's easy to spread
dark.
So I would.
My warning to Democrats is,look, you know, I'm not saying reject
(30:14):
the kind of the far left inyour party, because obviously people
have a right to believe whatthey want to believe.
Leave, but do push backagainst them taking over the or against
that being the message of theDemocratic Party.
And I think the Democrats haveactually done a good job of that
so far.
The other thing is, yes, this.
It's winning.
It's about votes.
I would much rather be in theposition right now of Kamala Harris
(30:36):
being president and thisDemocratic slash sane Republican
coalition arguing a little bitover this nominee that she put up
or, you know, this policy orthis thing, thing.
That would be a much betterposition right now than the fact
that we're all sitting backgoing, holy.
Democracy is legitimatelybeing destroyed.
(30:57):
That's why winning is important.
Deal with the differences later.
I mean, if you think thatyou're ever going to get 51 with
a party that is homogenous andbelieves the same thing, then you
don't understand humanity.
My wife and I are pretty closetogether, and we disagree on so much
crap that it's incredible.
And yet it's just two people there.
(31:17):
Now you take, you know, tensof millions of people in a party
and say, you know, you can'thave disagreements.
Well, that's unrealistic, andcongratulations, you'll lose every
election you ever get in.
Republicans are much better atit, and, you know, Democrats need
to catch up.
Right.
So what's next for you,Representative Kinzinger?
Where.
Where are you headed these days?
Any politics in the future?
(31:37):
No clue.
I was hoping you guys wouldtell me.
No, look, I.
Well, I.
I don't know if you saw,during the campaign, I was advocating
for you to be our ambassadorto the UK so.
Oh, that would have been great.
I would have loved that.
That's awesome.
No, listen, I.
From my perspective, I don't know.
I mean, I'll be honest.
I wrestle every day with,like, I just.
(31:58):
I.
I actually want to just walkaway and go fly airplanes for United.
You know, I mean, honestly, it's.
It's a.
That's a.
That's a temptation becauseit's like, do I need this?
But then I also know that, youknow, I was built in a way that I
don't back down.
And.
And, you know, in fact, that'swhat I've said when people have threatened
to throw me in jail or send meto Gitmo, I'm like, freaking bring
(32:19):
it, do it.
Because I'll be three timesmore effective from Gitmo as I am
even from here.
And so I'M going to continueto try to be the voice that I can
be.
I've got a, a year left rightnow in my CNN contract.
We'll see what happens after that.
Got a substack, whicheverybody does, but it's actually
really successful.
And then whole bunch of, youknow, country first is an organization
(32:40):
I kind of, kind of consideratedemocracy building in the United
States.
We're pretty good at that.
Overseas we were until all thefunds were frozen.
We're not as good here, sothat kind of stuff.
And in terms of do I run again?
I guess I've been out for twoyears now, so I've been able to take
a break.
So I feel that fire to runagain kind of coming back.
But I just don't know wherethat could be because I had mentioned
(33:01):
I'm certainly not going to runas a Republican.
Could I fit in the Democrats?
I don't know.
That's, that's a question.
But I would certainly be opento getting back involved if, if I
thought that AI could win andI thought it actually could make
a difference.
I'm not doing it for ego.
I did the ego thing that'sbeen burned out of me and I'm not
doing it for power.
I've had power that's beenburned out.
(33:23):
It would be if I think we canmake a real difference.
Well, I gotta admit I'menvious because I spent a lot of
years in Washington.
I never made the Hills list ofsexiest people on the Hill.
Yep.
It's tough competition, let metell you.
Hey, you mentioned flying, soI gotta ask you, KC 135s or RC 26?
(33:45):
Yeah.
So I prefer the RC any day.
I.
The 135i flew for two yearsand you know, it was fun.
And flying that 30, 000ft overIraq, 28 years old, I'm like, I want
to do something more down inthe dirt with the guys.
And was lucky enough to findthe RC26, which is a reconnaissance
(34:06):
plane.
But we actually overseas, wewere part of AFSOC Special Operations
Command.
And you know, we were actuallyamong the very first signals and
you know, visual kind ofreconnaissance planes there after
the surge was announced.
And so I got to go over toIraq as part of that.
And I saw firsthand the greatwork, frankly that we did in wrapping
up, you know, Al Qaeda cells,Iranian cells and the surge, you
(34:30):
know, worked and, andstabilized the situation there.
And I got to watch thatfirsthand stateside.
We flew counter drug missionswhich, you know, as guard members
we could do domestic lawenforcement, and I mean, we.
FBI, local, state lawenforcement, chasing bad guys taking
drugs off the street.
And unfortunately, the AirForce and their lack of infinite
wisdom killed this program ayear ago because, you know, it was
(34:54):
a whole $20 million a year,mainly that was paid for by law enforcement
agencies.
They wanted another tire forthe F35.
And unfortunately, we lost alot of great assets, but I prefer
that any day.
It was a fun plane, greatcrew, and, you know, this is an Air
Force guy guy.
Most of the time we didn'twear uniforms, and, and it was very
(35:14):
relaxed.
So it was probably about thebest gig.
It was like the last holdoutof a true Air National Guard gig
anywhere in the country.
So I was pretty fortunate.
Yeah.
I don't know about you.
I've been retired a lot longerthan you, but I still find that I
miss it.
You know, I, I.
Here, I'll tell you a funny story.
Last night I had a dream aboutflying planes in the Guard.
(35:35):
And every one of these dreamsend up with me, like in the bar,
hanging out with everybody.
And I'm not kidding, at leastonce a week, I have a dream like
that.
It's, it's, it's haunting in agood way.
Are you the same way?
Yeah.
And I've been retired since2008, and I tell you, those dreams
don't go away.
Yeah.
It's sad and it's great, and,you know, I feel lucky to have been
(35:58):
able to do it, but I tellpeople a lot of the times you're
kind of, you're haunted, butyou're haunted by the good times,
right?
Representative Kinzinger,thank you so much for joining Mo
Davis and myself in this, thisMuckyou episode.
Do us a favor and give uscountry first and then tell us just
briefly about your book andwhere folks can get that.
Yeah, so the book is calledRenegade, and just Google it, it's
(36:21):
Penguin.
So you can either get it fromthere or Amazon.
And way to kind of see mystory from the perspective of what's
happened to the Republican Party.
So it's like a microcosm thatgives you a bigger view of what's
going on.
I'm also on Substack, of course.
Adam Kinzinger, substack.comDo that.
And country first.
Country1st.com.
That is where we're doing alot of cool stuff.
(36:42):
And in fact, we're, we'regetting ready to send a mission to
Ukraine for people to go,medical professionals, EOD professionals
in humanitarian to go toUkraine to help out there.
We get we've got a political side.
Of course we do to that.
We've got a humanitarian sideand I consider it kind of what I
want to do with country firstis make it this launching point for
(37:03):
this ground up movement inthis country to change how we see
things, change how we dothings things and change how we interact.
So thanks for that opportunityand we'll take a look.
I got your book on audible andenjoying it right now when I'm off
to pick up the kids every day.
So awesome.
Got a little kins and girl inthe morning in the afternoon.
So anyway, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Adam.
(37:24):
It's been a pleasure.
You're a great American.
Keep doing what you're doing,my friend.
You guys are too.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me and lookforward to coming back.
This has been an episode ofMucky you with guest representative
Adam Kinzinger.
Today's podcast was co hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David B.
Wheeler.
American Muckrakers producedthis show and is responsible for
its content.
(37:45):
Copyright 2025 by American Muckrakers.
More information and adonation link is@americanmokrakers.com.
And guess what?
Lauren Bobert still has not sued.
Foreign.
Our guest today isRepresentative Adam Kinzinger.
Welcome, RepresentativeKinzinger, how are you?
I'm good.
Good to be with you guys.
Thanks for having me.
Where do you think we are with Trump?
What are your general thoughtsand any impressions that you want
(00:22):
to share with us in the audience?
Yeah, look, we, you know, Ihad like two scenarios after Trump
won that I said this is goingto be, it's either going to be, you
know, not great, but we'll getthrough it, you know, whatever, or
it's going to be extremely badbeyond our wildest dreams.
And I think we're in theextremely bad beyond our wildest
dreams.
(00:43):
And what, what concerns me,you know, as we're recording this,
all these, we're getting allthis indication that there's, you
know, these Republicansenators will be voting for RFK and
Tulsi Gabbard people that wethought wouldn't, you know, actually
Thom Tillis was supposed tovote against the Secretary of Defense,
Pete Hegseth, and then in thelast minute change that.
(01:03):
You know, there was some angerabout it, but there's this intimidation
and it feels like we're in,it's like late Rome where the Senate
existed simply to do the workand the bidding of the emperor.
And it feels like that.
I think the thing thatconcerns me more than anything is,
you know, we always knew orassumed that there would be a backstop
to any bad thing that happens.
(01:24):
Right.
If somebody breaks the law,there's the DOJ or the FBI.
You know, when I'm sitting inmy office on January six, I knew
that in the very worst casescenario, there's the US Military
that can clear the bills building.
I feel like those backstopsare gone.
And, and unfortunately, I feellike right now the Democrats have
been caught flat footed.
And I'm angry about thatbecause they've had three months
(01:45):
to come up with a plan and itfeels like there's just nothing going
on.
And happy to talk more aboutthat, but I feel like we're in a
really concerning moment.
And I guess I'll say, youknow, my hope is, and I guess my
assumption still is thatthey're going to go too far and there's
going to be a backlash.
But the question is, when is that?
How much damage?
(02:06):
And, you know, do people justkind of lose their belief in honesty
and government?
That's a concern of mine.
Yeah.
What do you think happenedwith, I mean, like, you know, you
and I both served in the AirForce, and there, there are other
folks like, you know, I'm an attorney.
My first trial I ever did inthe military was in 1984, and my
opponent was a young captainfrom South Carolina named Lindsey
(02:26):
Graham.
Oh, man.
And then later, when I was thesenior attorney at Columbus, Mississippi,
one of the reservists in myoffice was Roger Wicker.
So those are two people that,you know, military backgrounds, that
they're both attorneys orsmart people.
And I know they know betterthan doing what they're doing.
So what do you think happenedthat made, you know, good people
(02:49):
go bad?
Yeah, it's crazy.
So, listen, I think it's acouple of things, but, but most importantly
here, you know, with LindseyGraham, I mean, the guy is apolit
political animal and all heever wants to be, all he ever could
see himself as being Senator.
Now, he's different than a lotof people, but, you know, for him,
he's a great, He's a goodpolitician in that he understands
(03:10):
what he needs to do to survive.
And I think that's got a lotto do with it.
He also, look, I mean, let'sbe clear.
He needs an alpha.
McCain was his alpha.
And then, you know, Trumpbecame his Alpha.
He needs somebody that he cankind of lean on for whatever reason,
I think, you know, and Wicker again.
So here's the broader issueon, you know, why is it that so many
of my colleagues in the Houseand so many in the Senate.
(03:31):
Look, I think people fear morethan they fear death.
They fear being kicked out ofa tribe.
I mean, if you think about it,I think 8 out of 10 adults seeing
a kid, you know, about to gethit by a train would jump in front
of the train and throw the kidout of the way to save their life.
But very few are willing to goagainst their tribe because we're
tribal people, we're tribal animals.
(03:52):
And I'll tell you, somebodythat went through it losing, when
your entire friend group isbasically based on politics and all
of a sudden now you're goingto turn against them.
That's a hard decision to make.
And I think there's lot to dowith that.
And I think there's a really,a broader issue specifically in the
military to talk about.
But I think on our, on our,the politician side, a lot of it
is, look, you lose a lot whenyou turn against, when you turn against
(04:15):
your party.
Your party is basically yournation in your mind.
You mentioned the military.
I'm curious about yourthoughts with.
I mean, it really concerns mewhat's happening with, with Mark
Milley and the effort to goafter him.
And Pete Hedge, Seth is theSecretary of Defense.
It's just in my view ahorrible choice.
I was always a big advocate.
You know, I was a lawprofessor for a while and I encouraged
(04:38):
a lot of young folks toconsider a career in the military.
Right now, I don't know that Iwould do that.
The commander in chief we'vegot and a secretary of defense, it
both can't meet the standardswe demand of an 18 year old recruit.
Yeah.
What are your views on themilitary now?
That's right.
Look, it's, it's a realconcern because again, the backstop
we always had like, you know,if the crap hits the fan, it's the
(05:01):
end of the world.
You know, from a governmentperspective we always knew that we
could trust the military andyou know, again, worst case scenarios,
the military could be the backstops.
And I, I don't think thatfeeling exists.
And I, I have a big concernabout the fact that, look, you know,
when I, I just retired about ayear ago from the Guard and a lot
of the guys I flew with, andspecifically by the way out of Mississippi,
(05:23):
you know, these are lieutenantcolonels that are, you know, I'm
flying an airplane with themand they're telling me qanon conspiracies
that they believe again,college educated generally, I guess
I'll call them, you know, highranking, kind of feel great office
that are buying into these conspiracies.
And I think what's happened inthe military, it's a number of things,
but I think part of it is thisbroader issue of, and I think there's
(05:46):
a little criticism that goesto the left into the Democrats on
this as well as men in general.
For the last 10 or 15 or 20years, really 10 or 15 years, men
have not provided or talkedabout what it is to be a man to the
younger generation of male,you know, I actually think masculine
traits are great.
I think a masculine trait isdefending the defenseless, punching
(06:08):
up, not down, you know,protecting your family, fighting
for a cause that's masculinein my mind.
And unfortunately over thelast 10 or 15 years there was this
kind of movement that we hadto be ashamed of being men.
Everything was toxic, toxic masculinity.
And I think what happened isthe younger generation of men felt
very isolated, they felt alone.
(06:29):
They didn't know what theirpurpose in this world was.
And then a guy comes along andactually is toxically masculine.
It has toxic masculinity.
Donald Trump and says, look,here's what masculinity is.
It's yelling, it's it'stweeting in all caps, it's being
mean to women, it's being racist.
And in the vacuum of anexample, men were drawn to that.
(06:50):
And I think that's why we asmen, by the way, have to fight back
against that and provide andtalk about what real masculinity
is.
But I think some of that hasleaked into the military where, you
know, obviously the militaryis largely male.
As it's gotten younger, you'reseeing the same trends there.
And I think there's a lot of,and, and it's a real concern.
I mean, sure, there are stillsome Democrats in the military.
(07:12):
I'm not saying that, butthere's this like perception that
in order to be tough, you haveto be a Republican.
And I actually thinkRepublicans of late are the whiniest,
weakest bunch of people out there.
Yeah, you mentioned the, youknow, people you flew with that are,
you know, educated, seeminglyintelligent people.
You know, it seems like welive in a world now where, you know,
you lies or truth, facts arefiction, cruelty's Christian vices,
(07:36):
virtue.
How do you reason with peoplethat are detached from reality?
Yeah, it's, it's, what's theold Bible verse?
It's like woe to him thatcalls good evil and evil good.
And I feel like that's, that'sthe moment we're in.
And how do you reason withthem is like, look, part of it, I've
come to believe many of themyou can't reason with.
Let's just, let's be clearabout that.
And you know, they, they theirhighest calling.
(08:00):
And I think this is a resultof 20 to 30, actually 30 to 40 years
of AM radio, Fox News, youknow, the Internet of just the enemy
of you is the left.
The left is the enemy.
And that's what people havebeen taught to believe.
And so even when it comes tothings like QAnon, even if you put
them on CIA truth juice andthey're like, yeah, I don't believe
(08:22):
the QAnon stuff, they'll stilladvocate for it because it's no longer
about actual issues.
It's just about my tribeagainst the tribe that I hate.
I think that is, is a big partof it.
Secondarily, I do think we'vegotten to a point in this country
where we're going to have totouch the stove.
You know, you have a, I have athree year old, you have a toddler
(08:45):
that is determined to touchthe stove.
You can try to stop him.
And I think for the last lookhowever many years, the same Republicans
in Congress, you know, thesame Democrats, most Democrats like,
have been protecting thecountry from the consequences of
Donald Trump and people likeDonald Trump.
And I think we're going tohave to touch the stove.
I mean, that's why, look, I'magainst the Trump's talking about,
(09:07):
but there's part of me that'slike maybe we need to just do the
tariff.
So finally people can see thatwhat this guy is saying is bs and
unfortunately, I fear that'sgoing to have to be what we, what
we have to wake up.
Because I'm not sure and I'dbe curious if you guys disagree.
I'm not sure.
Reasoned arguments with anumber of these people.
Now, there's a lot that, youknow, maybe voted for Trump that
can be reasoned with.
I'm not saying that, but thehardcore, I think it's just about
(09:30):
the left is the enemy andthere's nothing you can tell me otherwise.
Oh, I think we agree with youon that front.
I think it's very difficult tobreak through with facts with this
gang.
What do you think the wayforward is for thoughtful folks that
realize we're in the middle ofa shitstorm, but you know, we're
looking for some hope somehow.
How do we get through this together?
Yeah, I mean, I'll say this.
If I didn't believe there washope, honestly, I'd stop doing this.
(09:53):
I would, I, I'd move to adifferent country or at least do
something else.
Right.
Because I, I have to worryabout my mental health as well as
everybody does.
And you know, again, I reallybelieve that if you Quantum Leap,
one of my favorite show fromthe 90s, if you quantum leap like
five or ten years forward,this country will be past Donald
Trump and there won't be verymany people alive that will ever
(10:16):
admit they.
So because I think this isgoing to end so poorly that, that,
that's the case.
So that's the, that's whatgets me driving is I know that, you
know, in, in historical years,I'm 46 years old, I look back and
say four years of my life waslike, it goes by enough.
And so this four years will goby in a flash, even though it doesn't
necessarily feel like it.
And we'll have an opportunityto correct this on the other end
(10:39):
or to, to, to make the countryas we think it should be made, but
that's not automatic.
And, and I want to be clearthat that's why it's important for
us to keep, to keep working at It.
It's going to be things likedoing these podcasts, like putting
out statements on Twitter or,like, talking to the people, you
know?
But the other thing I'll say,which I think is really important,
is take the burden.
(11:01):
I say this to everybody,including myself.
Take the burden to save the country.
Take it off your shoulder.
Now, what I mean by that is weall carry around this, like, feeling
that, gosh, like, there issomething out there that I can do
that will save this country.
I just don't know what it is.
And so we find ourselvesspinning our wheels, throwing out,
(11:22):
you know, 20 tweets a day,writing, whatever, because we think,
you know, there's this humannature that it's like we're going
to strike gold at some pointand be the person that saves this
country.
And I've got to be honest,we're not.
None of us are.
But as a collective, we can.
And how do you win as a collective?
You take the burden to savethe country off your shoulders so
that you can stay in the fight.
(11:43):
Because how many people.
I know a ton.
And I'm sure you guys all knowa ton that were great warriors for
the cause, that are not.
That have given up, that havesaid they don't.
They're not paying attentionto news anymore.
They're not listening towhat's happening because they just
hit their breaking point.
And, you know, Mo, you know,especially with your past work, people
have breaking points, and.
And that can be brought on,you know, through different means.
(12:03):
So let's not.
Let's not get ourselves to that.
Let's maintain a sustainableway that we can fight in this together.
And.
And I think that's the bestadvice I can.
Don't give up hope.
And if you feel like you'reabout to quit, take some time off,
because the, you know, yournext tweet is not going to save the
country, but your involvementand you staying together.
And I would just add, it's.
(12:24):
It's not just the country I get.
I have friends in France andthe UK are urgently sending me emails
as if I'm in government or something.
What are you doing to help?
What are you doing to stopthis guy?
I mean, what.
Well, I filed some lawsuits,but there's not a lot I can do as
this crazy guy in North Carolina.
But.
So one more question aboutpolitics here, Elon Musk.
(12:46):
And by the way, can I just sayreal quick, thanks for.
Thanks for running againstthat dude.
What a.
What a.
Thank you.
I just have to say that that's.
To Mo.
Yeah.
Mo Davis.
Oh yeah, Mo, that's right.
Your buddy Cawthorn.
Yeah.
You know the worst part aboutCawthorn Rivers on Kinzinger, he
played as if he got his injuryin the military.
Yeah, yeah.
(13:07):
And that he did.
Disgusting.
Yep, he did.
He did.
He played that.
And he really kind of theearly line of this.
He was on the kind of thefront lines of this suspend reality
Donald Trump stuff.
And the crazy thing is hecould have been so good.
Right.
If people like this would goand he could have advocated for those
with disabilities.
He could have, you know,fought for a healthy conservative
(13:27):
future.
There's all these people,there's a lot of people without test
me but there's all thesepeople with talent that just blow
it on whatever this cult.
But sorry, I interrupted your question.
No, no, that's anytime we canbash on Cawthorn or, or Lauren Boebert,
we're all, trust me, same Moand I probably know know more about
those two individuals thanthey know about themselves.
(13:49):
But so not by choice.
Yeah, choice, exactly.
So one thing that's on my minda lot lately and I think a lot of
folks is Elon Musk.
Do you have a relationshipwith this guy?
Have you met him?
His is, has he supported you?
And if not, you know, how dowe shut this down?
This is.
(14:10):
Yeah, this is crazy.
Yeah.
And also I do hesitate.
I'm sorry I didn't say thankyou for the work you guys are doing
all altogether.
And I think it's importantthat we take on, you know, individuals
that are acidic and you know,with Hawthorne race for instance,
we, my organization countryfirst got involved with turning out
Democrats to vote in theRepublican primary to vote against
(14:31):
him.
And I think we've got to thinkstrategically like that and then
go after in the general elections.
This is, this is all going tobe important, particularly David
and I got.
Reprimanded by the Democratshere because, you know, we did the
exact same thing.
We said let's play by the rules.
And the rules permit you toregister as unaffiliated and vote
in the Republican primary.
I mean the numbers here just,you know, Democrats can have a really
(14:53):
hard time winning, so why nottake him out out in the primary?
And the Democrats here justpounced on us saying, oh, you're,
you're treating this like it'sa game.
Well, and this leads to abigger problem, by the way, which
is.
And this happened in Illinois too.
I mean, by the way, I wasn'tgoing to run again, but I got redistricted
out.
They didn't know I wasn't, butthe Democrats redistrict me out in
the middle of the January 6thstuff on that.
(15:14):
Look, on the Elon side ofthings, his brother actually supported
me.
And I don't know what hisbrother's up to now.
I don't know if he's, youknow, deep into the Elon stuff or
if he's still a little moresane than his brother.
You know, I.
I've read Elon's or the bookabout Elon, and his brother was always
kind of a calming force.
Elon, I'm going to be honestwith you, is one of the scarier individuals
(15:35):
out there because, you know,we all know the role of money in
politics.
And this guy spent 200, and Ithink the latest was $290 million
to elect Donald Trump.
And let's be clear.
He elected Donald Trump.
Donald Trump.
You know, if a bird would havesneezed west instead of East 2 Wednesdays
before the election, you know,Kamala would have won because it
(15:55):
was a 1% swing.
And, you know, anything canaffect that.
And so a $290 million campaignto turn out swing state voters certainly
did.
And now Donald Trump, whodoesn't care about the rule of law,
is letting him run ramshotover the federal government illegally,
by the way.
So I put out a videoyesterday, and actually it's.
It went viral.
(16:15):
It's gotten about 303 millionviews of me.
Just saying, look to theDemocrats, here's some free advice.
You guys need to, like, go tothese places where the doge, which
just to remind people, isn'teven real.
You know, where they're inthese organizations like usaid and
you guys need to demandentrance, and the Democrats did later
(16:36):
that day, and they weren't let in.
And I gotta tell you, youknow, when I was a congressman, if
I'd have gone to a federalbuilding and they wouldn't have let
me in, I would have made themarrest me because I had every right
to be in that building as a.
As a member of the U.
S.
House.
I don't know why they didn'tdo that.
They still, you know, that's agood start.
Pushing back against Elon,pushing back against Trump.
(16:57):
If you're in the minority, youhave one weapon in the House.
In the Senate, you've got, youknow, the filibuster, but in the
House, you have one weapon.
Your message.
That's it.
I'm sorry.
There's not much you can doexcept message.
And so that is what theDemocrats have got to be spending
their effort doing.
Now, obviously the numbers areso close in the House that there's
a little more they can do there.
(17:18):
But in terms of like fromNovember to this day, they should
have been coming up with aplan stand for what if Donald Trump
does this and Elon Musk doesthis, then what?
And they didn't.
And I don't know why.
But regardless, they didn't.
And so now it's aboutmessaging and with, with Elon and,
and the other thing, and I saythis as a former Republican who used
(17:38):
to be against lawsuits, right.
Donald Trump uses lawsuits.
His people use lawsuits.
We need to flood theadministration in lawsuits because
they are violating the law andthey need to be basically frozen
in place.
And so I would encourage that.
I saw your video yesterday andit was prescient.
And the problem is theDemocrats go there locked out.
(17:58):
Why don't they go right downto the street to a judge, get a judge's
order to go in the damn place.
Correct, correct.
And follow up instead of justmaking a big hoo ha out front, actually
go into the damn place.
No, you go ahead.
Yeah, so the, the thing that,the thing that kind of drove me nuts,
I don't fully know whathappened there because, you know,
I wasn't there.
(18:19):
I didn't see any live thing.
I just kind of read thearticle about it.
It again, if I was there, Iwould have been like trying to force
myself in.
I would have had them arrestme, which they wouldn't have done
or I'd have gone down, likeyou said, go down the street.
And even if they don't getthat order file to get that order
because you can't lock out thepeople that over like, yes, you can
(18:39):
tell me I can't come into theWhite House at the moment, but you
can't actually keep a memberof Congress out of the White House
long term.
You also can't.
You can keep them out ofclassified areas, but USAID isn't
classified.
It is incredible that they'reallowing this to happen.
And Tron Democrats, I've beenin the minority and there's a lot
of people that say you guysshould be doing more.
(19:00):
And we're like, we are.
You just don't see it.
But I do think thedemonstrable attempts to push back
are really important.
It's ironic that, you know, weworry so much about like China having
too much power in itsstrategic minerals or commerce, but
then you've got Elon, who iseffectively running the country,
controls the space program,get the brain implant Thing going
(19:24):
Starlink, Twitter, andeverybody seems fine with one guy,
you know, operating all thelevers of power.
Yep.
And it's in, it's.
He's the largest contractor tothe federal government.
The problem is, you know, Ithink the Biden administration should
have taken more action aboutthat, because when he made it clear
that he was, you know,involving himself in US Politics,
(19:45):
in overseas politics, they didn't.
Now, could they have done, Idon't know.
I mean, and honestly, look,he, he does own the space program.
That's a problem.
That's a, that's a, that's an issue.
Obviously, the Trumpadministration won't do anything.
And so, you know, look,there's conspiracies out there that
I don't buy, but I also don'tdismiss that, like, you know, taking
over the tax payment systemlike they're doing is, he's always
(20:08):
said he wants X to be apayment platform.
Everything that oligarchies dohas been done so far in what, you
know, two weeks.
So I guess it's not out of therealm to think that, you know, now
the oligarchs are going to bethe ones supplying the federal government.
And again, the thing thatstill, at least for now, is working
is the court system.
(20:28):
We need to fight this in the courts.
That's really the last fight.
Well, politically, but in thecourts, too.
Yeah.
You know, back in, you know,and I, he says, one reason I don't
gamble, I'm not really good at predicting.
But it seemed like in 2008,you know, when Obama won, it seemed
like a, a sea moment.
And I guess in hindsight itwas, but probably for the exact opposite
(20:49):
reason than I thought in 2008.
But to go from Obama in 2008to Trump in 2016, to go from hope
to hate so quickly, what doyou think happened?
How did we get there so fast?
Yeah, it's a great question.
Look, I do think there is,it's, it's, you know, when Obama
came in, there was the racialcomponent to it.
And I don't, I don't want tobe one that blames race and gender.
(21:11):
I think it plays a role.
I don't think it plays themain role.
And I think, you know, we'redoing a disservice to winning elections
in the future if we focus onlyon that, but it did.
And Obama comes in, he's ablack man, and that allows, you know,
the Fox News, the RushLimbaugh types to stir up animosity.
He's, he was obviously fairlyleft and, and had an air about him
(21:33):
that was kind of like, youknow, very inspirational.
But you also could feel likehe was out of touch with you.
And I think, and I don't thinkhe was out of touch, by the way,
but I think you couldmanipulate that into convincing the
Midwest, for instance, whichvoted largely for Obama, that he
doesn't care about you andhe's ignoring you.
And of course, we had massivecultural changes during that.
(21:55):
We had massive economicchanges and economic shifts, and
the Republicans were just better.
I was part of this and Ididn't realize what I was doing.
I can look back and see it now.
But the Republicans were partof this to say, look, you've been
abandoned by the Democrats.
It was great politics.
It was just bad for the country.
And, and I think that's taken hold.
And this is where I think it'sincumbent on the Democrats if I'm
(22:17):
giving advice to them.
And I recognize I'm not aDemocrat, although for the last two
election cycles, I votedstraight Democratic.
Take an interest in the LGBTstuff, like, great, we want to make
sure everybody is treatedfairly in this country.
But don't, I would say, don'tchannelize on identity politics.
I think identity politicsisn't working.
(22:38):
And, and focus on protecting everybody.
That's important.
But focus on also giving avoice in protecting the rural Americans,
the people that used to votefor you that now feel like you don't
care about them, like whateverthat is, to go in there and take
an interest and point outwhere Donald Trump's tariffs or whatever
(22:59):
are actually doing damage.
And here's the Democratic planto make your life better.
This is going to be a 10 yearto 15 year battle to win them back.
But I tell you what, it'salways going to be 10 or 15 years
away from when you start.
So you need to start todaybecause if you start in a year, it's
11 or 16 years.
I mean, it's weird.
So, you know, obviously I havea college degree.
(23:19):
College educated voters thatused to vote predominantly Republican
are now voting Democratic.
There has been a, a shift inthe electorate.
But if you were an economicvoter in the 80s for, I'm sorry,
if you were a social voter.
So if you were voting like forabortion or you were voting for whatever
Democratic social policieswere, you're still with the same
(23:40):
party, party.
You know, if you were aneconomic voter, you've switched.
I mean, again, collegeeducated are now voting Democratic
and the other way around.
So that the Democrats need toget in there and say, what is the
gusto that we lost.
How do we get that back?
And how do we care for these,you know, the minority populations
that we care about, while alsomaking it clear we're not caring
for somebody at the expense of you.
(24:01):
We just truly care for everybody.
You mentioned you're not aDemocrat, but you voted, you know,
Democratic in the last coupleof elections.
I'm curious what happens like,with, with you and Liz Cheney, Jo
Walsh, Jen Rubin, BillKristol, traditional Republicans
that, you know, now seem to bekind of outcast from your, your party.
I can't see any of youbecoming, you know, Democrat.
(24:23):
What happens with you folks?
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a,that's really a question for Democrats
because, you know, what I'vesaid is like this, this country has
two parties, right?
And you know, people like mehave said I don't want to be associated
with the Republican Party anymore.
Now I'm maintaining my labelbecause it's important for the message
I have have.
It's important because Iactually am not the one that changed.
I mean, as Ronald Reagan, youknow, he used to say, the Democratic
(24:45):
Party left me.
In my case, the RepublicanParty left me.
You know, I was a rising starfor what, nine of my 12 years in
Congress and nothing about me changed.
Now I'm the biggest outcast.
And so the question for theDemocrats are, are you willing and
this is tough to do, trust me.
I'm not saying like this is easy.
Are you willing to have kindof center right or center people
(25:07):
in your coalition?
Are you willing to havesomebody who may not, not think the
exact same on abortion?
By the way, there's about ahundred different positions on abortion,
not two.
You know, are you willing tohave somebody like that as part of
your coalition to have difference?
Because honestly, look, youguys know this politics used to be
fun.
It actually used to beenjoyable to have a different view
(25:29):
than somebody else and kind ofdebate it and you know, and stick
with your position or changeor whatever.
And, and I think having acoalition of people that have different
views kind of on some of theseissues, broadly believe in democracy.
Look, as a military guy, youknow, look, you're in a trench.
The 5 meter target right nowis the threat to democracy.
(25:50):
The 30 meter target is thethings we disagree on.
I'm going to tell everybody inmy trench focus on the 5 meter target.
That's your only thing you'refocusing on until that's neutralized.
And so this coalition needs tobe broad.
It's awkward and I could seemyself as a Centrist Democrat, if
that's a welcome thing.
As of now it isn't.
But I think that's eitherwhere we go go or else we're going
(26:12):
to be politically homeless.
You think there's ever goingto be a lane for a third party?
Like here in North Carolina,for instance, the largest, you know,
registered block of voters areunaffiliated people that don't want
to be a Democrat or a Republican.
Yeah, I mean, look, I, here's,I would love it, by the way.
I want to be very clear.
I would love a third partybecause I think if you had like a
third party that was kind ofcentrist, it would actually drag
(26:34):
both parties to the middlebecause you'd have to build coalitions
that kind of existed back inthe day when you had conservative
and liberal Democrats andconservative and liberal Republicans.
But there's two big challengesto that.
One is simply the two partysystem has put up so many barriers
to that that it's, it's, it's tough.
And you know, in Illinois, Ivaguely for like 3 seconds thought,
(26:56):
should I run for Congress asan independent?
And I looked, and to get onthe ballot in Illinois as an independent,
I needed something like 5 or10,000 signatures on the petition
of people that have nevervoted in a primary, by the way.
Now, to get on as aRepublican, I needed 600.
So you can see the, thebarrier there.
The other big barrier is, andI kind of alluded to this, it's our
(27:17):
mental block, which is, look,let's say, you know, somebody's running
for president as a centristand everybody loves this idea.
And then it gets down to brasstacks and they're like, well, how
do you feel about abortion?
And that person says, well,I'm, I'm pro life or I'm pro choice.
And then all of a sudden thepeople in the centrist coalition
that are pro life are like, ohgosh, I can't vote if you're pro
choice.
And they, they default back tothe Republicans or the Democrats
(27:40):
go, oh gosh, I can't vote foryou if you're pro life and they default
back.
We've been programmed tobelieve that every issue has two
sides.
And like I said, it's veryrare that it does.
Most issues have about 50 to100 different positions and we have
to think complex like that.
I'm not sure if we're capableof it yet, but that's got to be how
we start to see things.
(28:00):
Yeah, I think Democrats havegot a, have, you know, having been
one my entire life and been acandidate staff behind the scenes.
You know, I think it's the farleft that drags us in a way that
we don't want to go.
And the problem is politics isset up for folks that have money.
I mean, if you're a countychair, you got to have time to do
these sorts of things.
And, you know, working classfolks don't have time to run a party.
(28:23):
So it ends up in the lap ofsomebody with a lot of free time
and probably some money.
Money.
And the same thing with candidates.
You know, the candidates endedup having to, you know, subsidize
a campaign and it ends upbeing the elite in the city or the
urban areas.
And God, that's just.
It's going to be really toughfor the Democrats to make any inroads.
And.
And then I think the otherpart of it, Adam, is that the Democrats
(28:46):
have a problem with winning.
Yeah.
They don't understand thatthat's what politics is about.
We can fight aboutimplementing all this shit later
on, but if you don't win,you're not going to have the opportunity
to do that.
That.
What's, what's your advice forDemocrats on that front?
Yeah, look, you know, it'sfunny because in the, in the aftermath
of, of this election, youknow, I've seen the comments from
(29:08):
the far left that are like,you know, Harris made a mistake by
having the Republicans, youknow, so featured in her campaign
and boy, if we'd have justgone further left, we'd have won.
Okay, that's not true.
But you know, the thing is, iswhen you actually look at the numbers,
a lot of Republicans did votefor Harris.
The problem is a lot ofDemocrats voted for Trump to.
And because we're in themiddle of this shift.
(29:30):
And so my warning to Democratsis as a guy that lived through a
nascent far right movement inour party that grew.
Now, obviously there was a lotof far right Tea Party everything
else, but like when I'mtalking about the Freedom Caucus,
the kind of super radicals, it grew.
And even though I fought themmy entire time in Congress, there
was this feeling that if wejust embrace them them, we can bring
(29:54):
them in and kind of turn theminto normal Republicans.
And what happened is it's liketrying to embrace cancer and hope
that the cancer becomes likeevery other regular cell in your
body.
It doesn't.
Cancer grows and it metastasizes.
Darkness spreads, it's hard tospread light, it's easy to spread
dark.
So I would.
My warning to Democrats is,look, you know, I'm not saying reject
(30:14):
the kind of the far left inyour party, because obviously people
have a right to believe whatthey want to believe.
Leave, but do push backagainst them taking over the or against
that being the message of theDemocratic Party.
And I think the Democrats haveactually done a good job of that
so far.
The other thing is, yes, this.
It's winning.
It's about votes.
I would much rather be in theposition right now of Kamala Harris
(30:36):
being president and thisDemocratic slash sane Republican
coalition arguing a little bitover this nominee that she put up
or, you know, this policy orthis thing, thing.
That would be a much betterposition right now than the fact
that we're all sitting backgoing, holy.
Democracy is legitimatelybeing destroyed.
(30:57):
That's why winning is important.
Deal with the differences later.
I mean, if you think thatyou're ever going to get 51 with
a party that is homogenous andbelieves the same thing, then you
don't understand humanity.
My wife and I are pretty closetogether, and we disagree on so much
crap that it's incredible.
And yet it's just two people there.
(31:17):
Now you take, you know, tensof millions of people in a party
and say, you know, you can'thave disagreements.
Well, that's unrealistic, andcongratulations, you'll lose every
election you ever get in.
Republicans are much better atit, and, you know, Democrats need
to catch up.
Right.
So what's next for you,Representative Kinzinger?
Where.
Where are you headed these days?
Any politics in the future?
(31:37):
No clue.
I was hoping you guys wouldtell me.
No, look, I.
Well, I.
I don't know if you saw,during the campaign, I was advocating
for you to be our ambassadorto the UK so.
Oh, that would have been great.
I would have loved that.
That's awesome.
No, listen, I.
From my perspective, I don't know.
I mean, I'll be honest.
I wrestle every day with,like, I just.
(31:58):
I.
I actually want to just walkaway and go fly airplanes for United.
You know, I mean, honestly, it's.
It's a.
That's a.
That's a temptation becauseit's like, do I need this?
But then I also know that, youknow, I was built in a way that I
don't back down.
And.
And, you know, in fact, that'swhat I've said when people have threatened
to throw me in jail or send meto Gitmo, I'm like, freaking bring
(32:19):
it, do it.
Because I'll be three timesmore effective from Gitmo as I am
even from here.
And so I'M going to continueto try to be the voice that I can
be.
I've got a, a year left rightnow in my CNN contract.
We'll see what happens after that.
Got a substack, whicheverybody does, but it's actually
really successful.
And then whole bunch of, youknow, country first is an organization
(32:40):
I kind of, kind of consideratedemocracy building in the United
States.
We're pretty good at that.
Overseas we were until all thefunds were frozen.
We're not as good here, sothat kind of stuff.
And in terms of do I run again?
I guess I've been out for twoyears now, so I've been able to take
a break.
So I feel that fire to runagain kind of coming back.
But I just don't know wherethat could be because I had mentioned
(33:01):
I'm certainly not going to runas a Republican.
Could I fit in the Democrats?
I don't know.
That's, that's a question.
But I would certainly be opento getting back involved if, if I
thought that AI could win andI thought it actually could make
a difference.
I'm not doing it for ego.
I did the ego thing that'sbeen burned out of me and I'm not
doing it for power.
I've had power that's beenburned out.
(33:23):
It would be if I think we canmake a real difference.
Well, I gotta admit I'menvious because I spent a lot of
years in Washington.
I never made the Hills list ofsexiest people on the Hill.
Yep.
It's tough competition, let metell you.
Hey, you mentioned flying, soI gotta ask you, KC 135s or RC 26?
(33:45):
Yeah.
So I prefer the RC any day.
I.
The 135i flew for two yearsand you know, it was fun.
And flying that 30, 000ft overIraq, 28 years old, I'm like, I want
to do something more down inthe dirt with the guys.
And was lucky enough to findthe RC26, which is a reconnaissance
(34:06):
plane.
But we actually overseas, wewere part of AFSOC Special Operations
Command.
And you know, we were actuallyamong the very first signals and
you know, visual kind ofreconnaissance planes there after
the surge was announced.
And so I got to go over toIraq as part of that.
And I saw firsthand the greatwork, frankly that we did in wrapping
up, you know, Al Qaeda cells,Iranian cells and the surge, you
(34:30):
know, worked and, andstabilized the situation there.
And I got to watch thatfirsthand stateside.
We flew counter drug missionswhich, you know, as guard members
we could do domestic lawenforcement, and I mean, we.
FBI, local, state lawenforcement, chasing bad guys taking
drugs off the street.
And unfortunately, the AirForce and their lack of infinite
wisdom killed this program ayear ago because, you know, it was
(34:54):
a whole $20 million a year,mainly that was paid for by law enforcement
agencies.
They wanted another tire forthe F35.
And unfortunately, we lost alot of great assets, but I prefer
that any day.
It was a fun plane, greatcrew, and, you know, this is an Air
Force guy guy.
Most of the time we didn'twear uniforms, and, and it was very
(35:14):
relaxed.
So it was probably about thebest gig.
It was like the last holdoutof a true Air National Guard gig
anywhere in the country.
So I was pretty fortunate.
Yeah.
I don't know about you.
I've been retired a lot longerthan you, but I still find that I
miss it.
You know, I, I.
Here, I'll tell you a funny story.
Last night I had a dream aboutflying planes in the Guard.
(35:35):
And every one of these dreamsend up with me, like in the bar,
hanging out with everybody.
And I'm not kidding, at leastonce a week, I have a dream like
that.
It's, it's, it's haunting in agood way.
Are you the same way?
Yeah.
And I've been retired since2008, and I tell you, those dreams
don't go away.
Yeah.
It's sad and it's great, and,you know, I feel lucky to have been
(35:58):
able to do it, but I tellpeople a lot of the times you're
kind of, you're haunted, butyou're haunted by the good times,
right?
Representative Kinzinger,thank you so much for joining Mo
Davis and myself in this, thisMuckyou episode.
Do us a favor and give uscountry first and then tell us just
briefly about your book andwhere folks can get that.
Yeah, so the book is calledRenegade, and just Google it, it's
(36:21):
Penguin.
So you can either get it fromthere or Amazon.
And way to kind of see mystory from the perspective of what's
happened to the Republican Party.
So it's like a microcosm thatgives you a bigger view of what's
going on.
I'm also on Substack, of course.
Adam Kinzinger, substack.comDo that.
And country first.
Country1st.com.
That is where we're doing alot of cool stuff.
(36:42):
And in fact, we're, we'regetting ready to send a mission to
Ukraine for people to go,medical professionals, EOD professionals
in humanitarian to go toUkraine to help out there.
We get we've got a political side.
Of course we do to that.
We've got a humanitarian sideand I consider it kind of what I
want to do with country firstis make it this launching point for
(37:03):
this ground up movement inthis country to change how we see
things, change how we dothings things and change how we interact.
So thanks for that opportunityand we'll take a look.
I got your book on audible andenjoying it right now when I'm off
to pick up the kids every day.
So awesome.
Got a little kins and girl inthe morning in the afternoon.
So anyway, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Adam.
(37:24):
It's been a pleasure.
You're a great American.
Keep doing what you're doing,my friend.
You guys are too.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me and lookforward to coming back.
This has been an episode ofMucky you with guest representative
Adam Kinzinger.
Today's podcast was co hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David B.
Wheeler.
American Muckrakers producedthis show and is responsible for
its content.
(37:45):
Copyright 2025 by American Muckrakers.
More information and adonation link is@americanmokrakers.com.
And guess what?
Lauren Bobert still has not sued.
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