Bigfoot, Bourbon, and the January 6th Committee: A Conversation with Denver Riggleman

Denver Riggleman, former Congressman and author, shares his unique journey from counterterrorism to distilling whiskey and his experiences on the January 6th committee. Riggleman discusses the challenges he faced in starting Silverback Distillery in Virginia, including regulatory hurdles and battles with lobbyists, which ultimately fueled his interest in politics. As he reflects on the state of the Republican Party and the broader political landscape, he critiques the lack of toughness among Democrats and the effectiveness of Republican messaging. The conversation also touches on Riggleman's potential run for lieutenant governor of Virginia as an independent candidate, highlighting the need for a new approach to politics that breaks away from traditional party lines. With a blend of personal anecdotes and insights into the current political climate, this episode captures the complexities of modern governance and the importance of standing up for democracy.

Denver Riggleman’s journey from a former Congressman to a distiller and back to the political fray paints a nuanced portrait of an individual navigating the complexities of modern American life. The conversation opens with Riggleman sharing the genesis of Silverback Distillery, born from a trip to Scotland where his wife developed a passion for distilling. This personal story offers insight into the dedication and hard work required to establish a successful distillery in Virginia, a state notorious for its stringent alcohol regulations. Riggleman’s anecdotes reveal the trials and tribulations faced by entrepreneurs in the liquor industry, reflecting a larger narrative about the intersection of passion, business, and regulatory hurdles. His enthusiasm for bourbon is palpable, illustrating how personal interests can shape professional trajectories in unexpected ways.

Transitioning into the political realm, Riggleman provides a candid assessment of the Republican Party's evolution, particularly in light of the January 6th events. He discusses his experiences on the January 6th Committee, shedding light on the challenges of investigating a politically charged incident fraught with misinformation. Riggleman critiques both the media and the political establishment for their failure to adequately address the underlying issues that led to the insurrection, emphasizing the importance of data analytics and counterterrorism expertise in understanding such complex events. His reflections on the media’s sensationalism and the political landscape highlight a growing concern about the erosion of democratic norms and the rise of misinformation as a tool for political gain.

As the dialogue progresses, Riggleman contemplates a return to politics, specifically considering a run for lieutenant governor as an independent candidate. He expresses a desire to disrupt the traditional two-party system, advocating for a more pragmatic and fact-based approach to governance. His vision for a new political narrative challenges listeners to reflect on their own political beliefs and the importance of supporting candidates who prioritize integrity and transparency over party loyalty. Riggleman’s journey serves as a call to action for those disillusioned with the current political landscape, encouraging engagement and participation in shaping a more inclusive and representative political future.

Takeaways:

• Denver Riggleman shares the unique journey from counterterrorism to bourbon distilling, highlighting his entrepreneurial spirit.
• The challenges of starting a distillery in Virginia illustrate the complexities of navigating state regulations.
• Riggleman discusses the bizarre political narrative surrounding his Bigfoot book during his congressional campaign.
• He emphasizes the importance of data and technology in investigating the events of January 6th.
• The podcast explores the stark differences between the Democratic and...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to Muck you Episodetwo with Denver Riggleman, former
member of Congress fromVirginia and author of breach available
on Amazon.com as well as audible.
Welcome to the show.

(00:21):
Thank you so much.
It's an honor to be here, buddy.
And I think we're going tohave a lot of fun today.
We sure are.
And my co host, Colonel MoDavis is here as well from Asheville
today.
Welcome, Mo.
Hey, it's good to be here.
All right, well, let's getright into it.
So known for former member ofCongress Virginia, but you're also
known as Mr.
Bigfoot and Mr.
Bourbon.
So let's talk about theimportant things first.

(00:43):
Let's talk about the Bourbon.
How did you guys get into that?
Well, you know, it's funny,you know, a lot of people know me,
you know, either from Kyr saysanywhere six committee, but pretty
well known.
I had a lot of good friends tothose former Air Force.
I had actually companies incounterterrorism analysis and data
really in data parsing.
Right.
Aggregation and using data for targeting.
So we got into distillingbecause, because in 2012 I sold my

(01:05):
first company which was calledAnalyst Warehouse and I was able
to use those receipts rightto, to stake my wife.
And I had asked her, I'm like,hey, you've been following me around
since we were 19 years old.
We got married pretty young, David.
So I said, you've beenfollowing me around, what do you
want to do?
And we were in Scotland onvacation and she had fallen in love
with this 80 year old plusdistiller at Ben Nevis Distillery

(01:25):
in Fort Williams, Scotland.
And they had gone around forhours and she came up with like,
I want to make liquor.
And so we started from scratch.
We didn't know anything.
So we, she, we sent her toapprentice, we got consultants, we
built the building ourselves.
We have 50 acres in Acton,Virginia on the Rockfish River.
She did it all and now she'sthe CEO.
And so it took us about yearone, year, four months and two weeks,

(01:46):
David, to actually build adistillery and to get open.
And now we've been in businessfor over 10 years.
So it really was a result ofwhat I did in counterterrorism and
data analytics.
It always ends up tyingtogether, doesn't it?
Well, my whole, yeah, well mywhole life before Congress was really
hunting terrorists and making whiskey.
That was pretty much it, you know.
And so, you know, so now, youknow, now I have my own AI company

(02:09):
too.
So you know, Mr.
Bourbon, Mr.
Bigfoot, Mr.
AI and you know, we're doingsuch incredible things there.
But really is, it's, it's a,it's what happened on January 6th,
it really sparked me to startmy third tech company.
Actually, David was.
Was because of all of that.
All right, but let's go backto the bourbon.
Sorry, gentlemen.
What's the name of the brandand how can folks taste it?

(02:30):
So Silverback Distillery.
We have distilleries inVirginia, the Poconos.
We sell almost all of ourproduct out of our distilleries and
do pretty well, but we are inWashington, D.C.
dupont Circle at B Street Wines.
We also have distributionLouisiana, Kentucky, and slightly
in Pennsylvania.
So that's it, right?
You get all our distilleries.

(02:51):
You can even go online ifyou're in one of the states we can
ship to.
So we are.
We're all over, but we don'tmake quite enough because we sell
out so quickly, which issometimes a bad problem to add, not
a good one.
But we do make some incrediblespirits, but mostly go [e-mail]
or you can go to ourdistilleries or buy them in select

(03:11):
stores in Kentucky, Louisianaand Washington, D.C.
know you had a little.
Bit of a battle withgovernment in Virginia over that
distillery.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat, because I think it says a lot
about your personality andyour tenacity.
Well, you know, the worstplace to start a distillery in the
country is Virginia at abc.
There's a lot of blobbying andhate distilleries, and most of those

(03:33):
are people who sell alcohol,like beer manufacturers, beer wholesalers,
but also the wine distributor.
So not only did I go to warwith them for years and still at
war for them because of theirrent seeking behavior in their lobby,
but also Dominion tried to runa pipeline across my actual property
while I was fighting theindividuals, you know, not only abc,

(03:53):
but the lobbying firms.
And why I got into politicsuntil I was 47 or 48 was because
of me fighting the regulatory burden.
The lobbyists.
Right.
Individuals, you know, eminent domain.
I just felt like we were undersiege once we built that distillery.
And they wanted to run theactual pipeline right across our
water lines, right where ourbarrel house was.
It was incredible, David, thatI sort of just got dropped right

(04:17):
into literally land lobbyingand regulatory wars, which really
opened my eyes to how much Ididn't know about not only regulatory
structures, but how you couldbe absolutely overwhelmed by lobbying
and special interests.
And, you know, for me, as aformer CEO at that time, I was a
senior consultant at thePentagon for electronic warfare and

(04:37):
countermeasures.
Everything I'd done in my lifeserving my country, I thought it
was incredibly unfair.
And I said, this can happen to me.
It can happen to anyone.
And that's really why I gotinterested in politics, was because
of the wars that I've had.
You know, we called it theWhiskey Rebellion, but it was the
wars that I had in all ofthose sectors simultaneously over
three or four years andfinally sparked me to get into politics.

(04:57):
Know that Virginia is anybetter or worse than North Carolina
as far as that goes.
We just had our.
The last county in NorthCarolina that was a.
A dry county, I think it wastwo years ago.
Finally now allows alcohol.
You know, when I was growingup, all of western North Carolina
were dry counties, and everytime it came up for a vote, it was
the Baptist and thebootleggers got together to.

(05:19):
To keep.
To keep it out.
So it's really ironic, youknow, I live in Asheville, which
is the beer capital of America.
If you go back a few decades,it would have seemed unimaginable
that because, you know, theworld is supposed to spin off its
axes if you had alcohol inwestern North Carolina.
But we're the beer capital now.
Well, when we go up and try tolobby for better laws for distillers,

(05:42):
like, for instance, we canonly serve 3 ounces per day to any
customer.
We pay a 34% bottle tax, thehighest tax in the country out of
your own distillery.
It's insane, right?
And.
But we went up there, we hadactually the lobbying groups for
the, you know, backers, thingslike that.
And when we are at theplanning commission meetings, Mo
they call my wife and Imurderers if we're going to sell
liquor.
So we still, definitely stillhave that sort of Bible belt mentality.

(06:05):
You know, what else is that?
Blue states are so much easierto do business than red states when
it comes to alcohol.
Their.
Their laws are better, theirstructures are better, their taxes
are much lower.
It is 10 times cheaper for meto sell alcohol out of a distillery
in California than it is in Virginia.
Yeah.
You know, it's ironic.
They probably, you know, themost famous distillery has got to
be Jack Daniels, which is in adry county.

(06:26):
You don't know when you're inthe Air Force on aver went to.
Was it Tullahoma Air Stationor whatever it was there?
No, not when I was in the airForce and did not go there.
Well, yeah, but it was rightnext to where the distillery was.
And you could go there underthe law.
They could give it away so youcould go there, you could sample
it, but you couldn't buy it.
So, Denver, the second part ofmy question, then I'll let Mo and

(06:48):
you maybe talk a little bitabout the Air Force experiences you
both had, but you also, in oneof your campaigns, got mired in the
Bigfoot controversy.
Tell us about that and thenmake sure everybody knows all about
the book.
In my first campaign in 2018,I ran against Olivia Wilde's mom,
David.
Her name was Leslie Coburn.
And I had just done the only Ibelieve op ed against white supremacy

(07:12):
that a Republican had writtenbecause Charlottesville is in my
district.
You know what happened in 2017with the Unite the Right rally.
Yeah, yeah.
So I wrote an op ed againstwhite supremacy and that, you know,
that Republicans need toreject anything to do with, you know,
white supremacy, whitenationalism, Christian nationalism,
you know, sort of this Western chauvinism.
Look at things.
The day after my opponenttweeted that I was a Nazi loving

(07:36):
Bigfoot erotica enthusiast, ordavote, based on my book Bigfoot,
it's complicated.
And my first book, you know,my second book, the Breach, was a
New York Times bestseller.
I saw a lot of this as a selfpublished book.
You know, when you track AlQaeda, isis, look at radicalization,
look at belief systems.
And even when you're lookingat, you know, way far right, you
know, Christianevangelicalism, or you're looking

(07:56):
at even, you know, let's talkabout the Jewish religion, right?
And some of the things thathappen there, when they go way down
the line, you, you know, whenyou get very, very, I would say,
fundamentalist in yourreligious beliefs, right, it can
cause you to do awful things.
But I wanted to do a bookwhere it wasn't exactly calling out,
you know, how that happens.
But how could I actuallypresent it in a way that was not
threatening?
So I used Bigfoot belief andthere is four different Bigfoot believer

(08:19):
types.
And in Bigfoot, it's complicated.
So their lives have beentransformed by these insane belief
systems.
Well, they saw the title ofthe book and the fact that on Instagram
on my birthday.
And Mo knows this is true.
A military buddy of mine drewa picture of me with my head on a
Bigfoot body with a bigblackout phallus.
And I put it on my Instagramas a joke because it was my birthday.
They used that plus the bookto say I was in the Bigfoot porn.

(08:41):
And so, you know, it wasactually disinformation.
It was a lie.
She knew that was wrong.
And I know that from hercampaign now and from the people
who work for it.
She just lied about it becauseshe was losing.
And you know, really didstrike me, even if somebody had been
in disinformation, that themajor papers carried the story and
they were sly about it.

(09:02):
They like, is he into Bigfoot erotica?
And then at the end of theinterview they're like, well, no.
And there was no proof of it,you know, and that, and that really
showed me also the complicityof the media and clickbait.
And really some of theproblems we see today is the media's
inability to actually live upto their responsibility.
So, you know, I'm in a weirdplace, right?
Is that as somebody who, youknow, knows disinformation so well,

(09:25):
I was able to react to thatdisinformation in a way that was
able to diffuse it for themost part.
But people still have thisweird belief that somehow I'm a Bigfoot
enthusia, a Bigfootpornography enthusiast and like to
run through the woods coveredin peanut butter and bacon, you know,
so that's really, you know,where it came from.
Was a really awful human beingthat was running against me in a
congressional race.
And you know, and then.
But you know, she got her just desserts.

(09:46):
I beat her.
But now thank beat for Davidand Mo.
But she was also accused ofkink shaming me by the left, which
was pretty interesting thather own people turned on her because
she shouldn't be kink shamingsomebody just because, you know,
they might be a Bigfoot furryor something.
So yeah, so it was a nuttytime to see how politics can be that
dirty.
But also that most politicianslie and that's something I never

(10:08):
wanted to do.
And she was just a liar and.
Yeah, I bet probably helpedyour campaign, didn't it?
That's your name.
It gave me national recognition.
You know, I got, I gotintelligence for people that.
So they were begging her notto do it.
That would put me on the map.
And also she was wrong and,and both of those happened, right.
People started laughing aboutit like this is ludicrous because

(10:30):
it's so stupid and it made herlook like an idiot.
So even though the first weekwas awful for me and had death threats
and people invited me to doweird things with.
But yeah, my wife and I arelike, nah, we're not into furries,
you know, so.
But yeah, it was, it was areally weird time for us to go through
that.
I think a real learning lessonfor me on politics and the evil that

(10:53):
sometimes involved with thelie but on the flip side, it didn't
work out for me.
That's right.
That's right.
So over you.
Mo yeah, Denver, I'm curiouswith your background, we've got the
confirmation hearings underwayright now.
But what you're thinking isparticularly with Pete Headset, you
know, for DOD and Ratcliffefor, for the CIA.

(11:14):
Well, you know, I think thebest pick should be really sad.
Mo is Ratcliffe.
So yeah, we should cry aboutthat because I, I know John, I worked
with John, and he certainlydoesn't have the background or even
the ability, I think, to runthat organization with the type of
efficiency or effect or efficacy.
As far as Pete Hagseth, I justthink he's a slug, maybe one of the
worst picks we could ever havefor SEC depth.

(11:34):
Maybe the worst pick, I wouldsay ever identify.
And just watching himyesterday, the smirks that, I mean,
we have a Fox News personalitywith really no other talent being
picked just because of loyalty.
And I think what scares meeven more than Exit is Tulsi Gabbard
for DNI right now.
And so really maybe the leastcompetent, least effective picks

(11:55):
in the history of the UnitedStates, all because of loyalty.
And what scares me just isn'tTrump, but it's that those people
actually can have power andthey're still reduced, but they're
also, you know, if you look atExit, he really leans towards that
Christian nationalism, youknow, slant.
Tulsi Gavert was a member of a cult.
You know, you look at JohnRatcliffe, he's just adult.
So I think, I think that'swhat you have, right, is you have

(12:16):
the incomprehens, adults, theslugs, right and the immoral right
that have been chosen if youlook at what happened in that gate.
So I think that's the issuethat we have right now.
MO yeah, you know, for a lotof years I was a big advocate when
I talked to young folks, youknow, to consider a career in the
military.
But I'm not doing that now.
It, to me, it's alarminghaving a commander in chief and a

(12:37):
potential SEC death who can'tmeet the minimum standards we demand
of an 18 year old that walksinto a recruiting session, you.
Know, listen, Colonel, right?
Colonel Davis, I got out, Iwas a mustang.
I got out as a captain, NSASpecial Projects.
I was enlisted in the information.
When I look at what'shappening right now, I wonder what
happens to our military moralebut also to the belief systems, the

(12:59):
military.
We already have aradicalization issue and some versions
of military.
So Mo, my Biggest fear is whathappens if you have a sexual abuser
who's a commander in chief andmaybe a sexual deviant who's SecDef.
And I think that's the.
I just don't even know.
I feel like a stranger in myown country sometimes.
So you served and has takenthe oath that you have served.
So, you know, it just, itgives me pause.

(13:21):
Mo ran against a guy here inNorth Carolina, a massive thorn,
I think.
You guys.
What was your interaction withthat knucklehead, really?
I was on the way out when hewas on the way in, so I didn't see
Madison and Marjorie TaylorGreen and things like that, but I
just looked at him because Iknew their belief systems already
and you know, I did.
I didn't know if theirstupidity was an airborne virus.
So I didn't get.
But you know, Madison is sounserious and so prophetic of a human

(13:44):
being called basically on hisbackground and the.
In the videos that he did too,which you guys might be aware of.
But you know, the thing that's.
If I may, you know, argue withmyself when he was talking about
the sex parties, orgies andstuff like that in the gop.
Not exactly true.
But then when you look atsomebody like a Matt Gates, you know,
you start to wonder.
Right.
But I also knew some of ourindividuals that were really into

(14:05):
some bizarre stuff, even, youknow, having pictures of their conquests.
Right.
That sometimes they bring tothe House floor.
So I was not real enthralled,David, with that House membership,
uh, especially on the right.
I was a Republican and theDemocrats seem to be much more together
as far as not maybe sharingpornography, which was maybe should
be your baseline of being amember of Congress.

(14:25):
You shouldn't do that.
I think Madison Cawthornreally was sort of the.
Gosh, what the.
The guiding light of depravity.
Right.
In the GOP while he was in.
So there you go.
That's what I think about him.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's funny becauseyou've got like Senator Kennedy from
Louisiana, you know, Harvardeducated guy who kind of plays the
country bumpkin role, youknow, kind of.
Yeah.

(14:45):
Place plays dumb when he'sreally not.
But with Cawthorn, he wasn't playing.
It was dumb to the bone, but.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, what is it?
What is it?
Pretty skin deep, but ugliesall the.
Way to the bone.
Bo.
Yeah, right.
That's pretty much Madison.
Well, it's amazing.
I don't know any otherimportant decision a person would
make.
You Know whether it's choosinga doctor or a pilot or an electrician,

(15:09):
where you'd want the dumbest,least qualified person you could
get to do the job.
But that seems to be thestandard in politics.
It's really a shame.
I argued, you know, when I wasrunning, when I first started, I
would talk about people votingagainst their interests and all the
consultants said, oh, you gotto stop saying that.
You're suggesting that peopleare stupid.
It's like, well, shit, theyare, because you were suggesting.

(15:30):
Mo, that's enough.
God, God forbid somebody tellthem the truth once in a while.
Amen to that.
Amen to that.
Mo and I, you know, I thinkagain, when you talk about lowering
the standards, look at ourcommander in chief, right?
I mean, I, I think ignoranceis easily weaponized and, you know,
it's, it's easily mined alsofor money.
I mean, you have, this is thenew grifter politician culture that

(15:52):
sort of nobody wants to really attack.
Crazy is not party specific.
Right.
I always say that, you know,Mo and David, that, you know, but
the far right's in a hold mybeer moment.
But I don't think the twoparty system can hold up to social
media and the disinformationout there.
And I think we need a new way,um, and we need something to somehow
moderate the fringes and the lunatics.
But you know, for the farright, you know, for people like

(16:14):
the Cawthorns, the MarjorieTaylor Greenes and the Lauren Bogarts
and the Matt Gaetz, I justdon't know how you fix stupid, but
people enjoy stupid and theyflock to it based on their belief
systems or the fact that theyjust vote based on the letter behind
their name.
I don't know if you saw itthis week.
A day or two ago, there was apiece in the New York Times talking
about proportionalrepresentation rather than this two

(16:37):
party.
Didn't you know, the two partysystem has a way pushing people to
the extremes and probablyNorth Carolina is a good example.
If you look at this, you know,the November election on the House
side, Republicans got 52% ofthe votes in North Carolina, but
they got 72% of the seats in Congress.
So, you know, there's 48% ofthe North Carolina population that

(16:57):
didn't vote for theRepublicans were largely left unrepresented.
So this article was suggestingproportional representation that
would have, you know, abroader, you know, than just the
two party system that we'vegot now.
I just don't know how we getrid of the gerrymandering of districts
Unless that proportionalsystem takes into account, you know,
where there's population centers.
I, I, you know, and it's, youknow, just like here in Virginia,

(17:18):
right.
My, my district was like adragon riding a scooter, you know,
it was the post gerrymandereddistrict, you know, and, but my district
was bigger than New Jersey.
It was over 10,000 square miles.
So I wonder, you know, how wedo that because you're exactly right.
Gerrymandering, what is itonly it's like between 40 and maybe
in another year, 80 of thedistricts actually determine the
election.

(17:38):
Right, Mo?
It's only right the slingdistricts are so small now in comparison
to the 435 congressional districts.
Then what do we do?
Like, I don't, I don't evenknow how to fix this awful intransigent
two party gerrymanderingsystem that's completely corrupt.
And it's not just corrupt likequid pro quo or transactional.
I think the corruption isreally just the rot that the party

(18:00):
has accrued over decades and generations.
And I think that rock needs tobe scraped out somehow.
And again, I think it goesback to, it just have to be people
who want to, you know, breachthe wall.
Right.
They want to be the first overto have truly independent runs where
people don't caucus witheither party.
How does that even happen?
Right.
How do you even make that happen?
And it's something I'd love tofigure out, I'll tell you that.

(18:21):
Well, I think, you know, thepublic is, I think express their
displeasure with the two party system.
And here in North Carolina,the largest voting block, you know,
for voter registration is unaffiliated.
There are almost 3 millionNorth Carolinians are register with
is unaffiliated, which is overa half a million more than either
the Democrats or theRepublicans have.
So, you know, it's prettyclear that folks are not happy with

(18:45):
the two party system.
I know they're not.
And you know, and I asked youand David, it's a real question,
you know, is as I know David'sprobably been asking something about
another type of run for me,not congressional.
I would never do that again.
I'd rather set myself on fire.
Yeah.
I wonder, you know, if peoplesay they want it, Mo and David, if
they're actually going to fund it.
You know, money drivespolitics, sadly, you know, and can

(19:08):
you get the fundraising, thesupport, right.
To move forward on that?
Well, that's a beautiful segueinto my question.
There's a little bit ofscuttlebutt out there.
That you're looking at electedoffice again.
What are your thoughts?
What are you thinking about?
Well, you know, like I saidbefore, even with any, even a statewide
office, I was like, there's noway that I would run again.
But after Trump won, see, mywife and I, she, I sort of made her

(19:30):
a promise.
Like after the insanity I wentthrough, as you guys know, I was
kicked out of the RepublicanParty pretty much for officiating
a same sex wedding.
And then I voted to legalize marijuana.
Dear Lord.
You know, I, you know, I, Icompletely, completely became the
tool, the Antichrist, as theycalled me.
You know, but, and also I justrefused to, to kowtow to the committees

(19:51):
and things like that.
And then to have a conventionin a church where they brought in
Confederate flags against me.
And it was pretty insane, right?
To have that kind of theLeague of the south and racist.
And I, and by the way, it'sgood to have those kind of enemies,
right?
So it really defines who you are.
But I lost in a church withonly 2500 people because I would
probably win a primary.
So it was pretty bitter and itreally affected me mentally, physically.

(20:15):
And my wife's like, just, it'snot worth it.
After Trump won, the nightafter Trump won.
And this is, this is just astrue as can be.
She's like, honey.
And you know, she usesmilitary language.
Mo.
So I want to let you know that.
David.
Yeah.
She goes, you're the only mferI know that tells the truth.
And you need to get back intothis because she, Trump came out
and he's just an awful kind ofhuman being.

(20:35):
So, you know, I calledsomebody like Denver, you should
run for governor.
I really can't because of mynew company and my fiduciary responsibilities.
Maybe I can, but I would causedefinitely consternation with my
investors in my advisory board.
The lieutenant governor is apart time position in Virginia that's
statewide.
And would it give people thepermission structure to vote for
somebody outside of governor?
Because it's two differentraces in Virginia.
The cool thing.
And Mo.
David, not Virginia is thegovernor, Lieutenant governor.

(20:57):
Do not run on a combined ticket.
They run separately.
And you could have aRepublican governor and a Democratic
lieutenant governor.
It's happened.
You know, Virginia is very unique.
It's one term only.
You can do more than one term,but it can't be consecutive.
So, like, what would it belike to run statewide as a true independent?
So I have an exploratorycommittee, David.
I have people on board thatpeople say they want to fund this.
We think we have to raise thelieutenant governor level between

(21:20):
10 and $15 million if peoplesay they think they can get the people
to do that.
But you know, the thing is Ido run a very robust AI company.
I have multiple distilleries.
I have incredible amount of responsibilities.
Do I have the energy or eventhe wherewithal right to do this?
But I'm pissed off and I am sodone with what's going on in this
country that what if you did atrue run as an independent where

(21:42):
you refused to caucus and Iwant to see if it can work.
And plus I have pretty goodname id.
You know guys, people know me.
You know I am a best selling author.
I did you know I was on theJanuary 6th Committee, Congressman.
I've done media for the pastthree years.
I know more people know me nowwhen I was some knuckle dragging
backbencher.
So what if I gave a role andI'm better, I'm more mature, I don't

(22:03):
kowtow.
But I'm not as mad orconfrontational as I was five, six
years ago.
I'm actually angrier.
I don't show it as and I thinkI've learned a lot and I've grown
up in politics since I cameinto it so young.
I mean so new at 47.
I've only been in like six toseven years and only probably five
years of that I even caredabout it.
So that's where I'm at.

(22:24):
Do I even have the guts to doit again?
I think I do.
Do I have the finances?
Maybe.
Do I have the time?
Not sure.
Are people going to be angryin my company?
Maybe.
And what does it really looklike when people say they support
you?
Mo you know this people likerun, run, run and then they forget
to give you money or theywon't take your calls.
So, you know, that's where I'mat on that right now.
David, I commend you and yourwife because I'm it just seems like

(22:45):
right now a lot of people arejust giving up.
You know, they're just sodisillusioned and disappointed that
they're just, you know, giving up.
So we need people, you know,doing like you're doing and thinking
about not giving up andgetting out there and running and
trying to make things better.
So, so what are the mechanics Denver?
When do you have to make adecision and you know, what kind

(23:06):
of money you think, think youcan raise?
I got to make a real decisionin about two to three months because
Virginia has All few elections.
The election is November 25th, David.
So I got to make that decisionfairly soon.
I'd say within the next eight weeks.
And then I have to get signatures.
Right.
That made it very difficultfor an independent to run.
I know that's surprising bothof you.
So if you make that very difficult.
But I can do that too.

(23:27):
And I do think I can raiseinitially a few million just to see
where we're at with digital.
Plus with my company, I can dothings in AI and replicating myself
that camera can't do.
I can actually put out 50different AI denvers with different
messaging simultaneously atlower cost.
So I'm wondering, can I alsorun the first pure technology campaign,

(23:48):
the first real independentcamp Virginia for who knows how long,
but also a campaign where Ican actually spend myself out, build
my own infrastructure using technology.
We're trying to do all that, David.
So it's, it's going to be interesting.
Oh, man, you can do it.
Come on.
You started a.
You didn't, you didn't knowanything about.
Yeah, no.
And you didn't know anythingabout Congress and you got into there.

(24:09):
You didn't know anything aboutbeing married.
You've got a very successful marriage.
I am 100% behind you, my friend.
I, I, I would be up theregathering signatures for you this
weekend if, if you were in the race.
So let's do it.
Denver.
Let's make an announcementright now.
You're in, right?
I have to wait for myexploratory committee, David.
I have to right now without mywife knowing first.

(24:32):
I know my congressional raceon Facebook without telling her which.
Oh, Jesus.
All right, so maybe you're notas good at that as I thought you
were.
No.
And you got to remember too, Igot stuff because I pranked my wife
on our 15th year anniversary.
Instead of taking her toHawaii, I took her on a Bigfoot expedition.
I thought it'd be funny.
It was not telling you.

(24:53):
I've made a lot of mistakes,David, in my life.
And yes, yes, I've beensuccessful in marriage, but that's
because my wife doesn't hateme yet.
So there you go.
So.
Nah, she's never gonna hate you.
Come on.
I listen.
She sort of wants me to do.
I, I do have people that haveto make sure but weapon do share
responsibilities.
There's an integrity thing there.

(25:14):
But on the other hand.
And you know, I have somepretty good policy ideas, but I want
to ask you to this.
You know, everybody says wehave to change it.
I think the main message isEverybody here in this audience is
here because you want tochange things.
Well, now here's your chance.
You don't have to right you.
Now you got to put your moneywhere your mouth is and your boat
where your mouth is.
If you want change and youwant somebody who's the president

(25:34):
of the Senate, who's anindependent, that does a tie breaking
vote on votes, that caresabout Virginia more than whether
he has an R or D behind hisname, it's your chance.
That's it.
That's really the baselinemessage, guys.
There's I can go to policy anddo all kinds of stuff, but do you
want the same old, same old?
And if you do, fine.
If you don't, here I am.
That's it.
Yeah.

(25:54):
No, that's a winning messageas far as I'm concerned.
So who would be yourcompetition on the Democrat and Republican
Republicans?
There's a couple of people,Pat Herty out of the Fairfax area
actually, good guy guy, JohnReed, who's a radio personality in
Richmond.
Those are the only twoRepublicans I know about Democratic
side, there's Lamar Stoneyout, he's the mayor of Richmond.

(26:15):
And then you have four othersthat I've never heard of.
So you know, the one thingthat I have gotten calls from from
even Washington D.C.
think tanks and politicalconsultant types is that this might
be the weakest field forlieutenant governor they've seen
in a long time.
And you guys gotta admit, Icome on as a former J6 advisor, former
Congressman Lincoln,lieutenant governor on an off year

(26:37):
election for the elections areNew Jersey and Virginia.
It would be sort of a nationalstory if I'm running and I would
probably piss off a lot of theDemocrats or Republicans.
So that's the other thing I'mbeginning is like you're going to
put win some Sears in who'sthe probably the likely Republican
nominee or you're going to putan Abigail Spamberger if you run.
So I'm getting both sidestelling me I'm going to sway the

(26:57):
election and I'm like, good,damn right.
Well how about this?
How about you just vote for meand let me see how I do as lieutenant
governor.
We'll see what happens in the future.
And if you don't again, let'sget on my back because I just go
back to my distillery and sitin the speakeasy and run an AI company.
So you know, I don't makemoney on this.
This, this isn't my career.
Right, but Spanberger asgovernor and you as lieutenant governor

(27:19):
would not be Too bad.
A combination, bothintelligence officers.
Well, Abby and I are friendstoo, you know, David, so we're actually
close friends.
And I was the only Republicanto endorse a Democrat during the
congressional races on Cameron.
I endorse Abby in the SouthernDistrict of Virginia.
So there you have it.
Denver.
I'm curious.
You know, people like yourselfand you know, Joe Walsh and you know,

(27:42):
Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzingerand even Barbara Comstock, you know,
she represented the districtwhen I lived in Northern Virginia,
and I wasn't a big fan of hers.
But this last election, youknow, I was really proud of her taking
a stand.
Where do you folks go?
And clearly the RepublicanParty is, you know, is no longer
a home for you.
And I can't, I can't see youguys being Democrats.

(28:04):
So what happens to thosesensible, what used to be sensible
Republicans, public.
Well, we had, you know, eventalking to Barbara.
You know, Barbara and I arepretty close.
And by the way, Mo, AdamKinzinger is on my value board for
my company.
He's one of the ones who,who's like, dan, don't do it.
You know, so I think I'm doingthis because I need to find something
where I do have a place to go.

(28:25):
And, you know, I started thiscompany because of January 6th.
I started because I saw the,the actual gaps in technology you
need to do these massiveinvestigations and the disinformation
and open source intelligenceis actually still so limited, especially
when it comes to Teleph Text us.
I thought, you know, I'llstart a company that defends democratic
institutions using technology.

(28:45):
That is really the vision ofwhy I started this company.
But, you know, you also haveto be out there and I'm on media
all the time.
So what if.
Well, what if we do have athird way and it's actually almost
organic.
Instead of trying to be, youknow, you know, these money people
who actually do this sometimesto make money, you know, like, you
know, label or forward party.
Right.
All these other parties, youknow, there's a big money structure

(29:05):
for them and they'restructured like the major parties
and how they collect money is.
Would it be organic?
Like, you know what, you cangive me all the money you guys want,
but I'm running Denver Riggle.
Denver freaking Riggle.
And if you don't like it, Idon't care.
But what I mean, and what ifyou could actually craft a policy
that's not just running up themiddle, but actually uses facts and
data, you know, as part ofwhat your baseline policy is and

(29:26):
Mo, that's the, that's the thing.
I wonder.
I don't know if it's possiblein this world anymore with the tribalism
and social media and theability to, you know, find your own
echo chamber and swim in it.
I mean, I don't know, but Ithink it's got to be where we caucus
with the people that defend democracy.
But there's got to be anotherway, you know, where the parties
are controlling every aspectof the election systems in every

(29:50):
state in Commonwealth.
So that's where I'm at.
Well, it's certainly the samehere in North Carolina.
It's really hard, you know, tobe an independent.
They make it difficult to geton the ballot.
You know, as I mentioned, thebiggest voting block in North Carolina
is unaffiliated.
But to serve on a state orcounty board of elections, you've
got to be a member of one ofthe two parties.
So, you know, institutionally,I know the Democrats and Republicans

(30:11):
hate each other, but they,they know the game and they're happy,
you know, fighting againsteach other and not having another
avenue to compete with.
Somebody's got to drop a turdin their punch bowl.
You know, that's really whatit comes down to.
There needs to be a disruptand you know, it was like, well,
what if you lose?
What if I get 20% of the vote?
That is going to put puckerfactor all over the two party system

(30:31):
in Virginia.
Right?
Mo So I need to scare people.
I need to get the horror fightand I need to call out both sides,
even if it's Abby David.
Right?
Like if they're saying stupidstuff or they're going right down
the line of special interest.
What if somebody actuallysaid, I love you, you're a great
person, but you're.
Well.
And oh, you know, and, and notto attack as just to attack, right?

(30:52):
Not to make up stuff like,like her opponents did against Abby
or make up stuff against Winsome.
And listen, I'm no, no fan ofthe far right.
You guys know where I stand, right?
But wouldn't it be interestingto have somebody who's just like,
hey, I'm neither, Like,literally neither.
I'm just an American guy or agal, whoever wants to run that way
and say, I'm just here tofricking break things, right?
In a good way.

(31:12):
Because this two party systemcontrols everything.
It's time to have somebodyoutside of that two party system
that has power.
And I think that's, I think,where people are like, is this really
a thing?
I think, I think you're ontosomething there.
Denver, I think.
I think there's a lot ofsimilarities between North Carolina
and Virginia.
Huge.
Huge.
And George Washington hatedpolitical parties.

(31:33):
Right, guys?
And he was also a distiller.
So I'm the next George.
There's your bumper stickerright there.
Such a joke, Shelby.
George Washington don't forexotic answer.
Stiller and unaffiliated.
So there you go.
Well, listen, my friend, myvote counts for nothing.
And sometimes I, I think Iprobably, probably take votes away

(31:56):
from people if I endorse them.
But, man, I am 100 behind youon this.
I think you're the right guyto do it because you, you're moderate
in your thinking, you'remoderate in your politics, you're
moderate in the way you liveyour life.
And, and you're, you're likable.
You're a likable person.
And I don't say that to puffyou up, but, you know, that matters.
I mean, the moment you and Iconnected about six months ago, I

(32:19):
felt like, you know, we wentto high school together and, and
I think that matters.
Let's move on to our finaltopic here and then let you get back
to AI world.
J6 so obviously, God bless youfor everything you did on that committee.
And I think that was a laborof love and probably pretty frustrating
for you at the same time.

(32:40):
But tell us a little bit abouthow that came about and give us at
least one story that maybeisn't in the book that we haven't
heard before.
Oh, my God, David.
What a dare.
So J6 committee came along.
Just people knew my backgroundwhen I was on the Financial Services
Committee.
I was on the.
I was actually as a freshman,the vice chair of the subcommittee

(33:01):
for National SecurityFinancial Services has a huge overview
like ofac, Department ofTreasury intelligence, and any of
my background in China andRussia threat systems.
So I was really fortunate thateven in Congress, people recognize
my background in technologyand foreign policy, but also in really
defense, as in total, not onlythe dod, but the intelligence.

(33:22):
So that's why I thought I'd bein for a while.
But again, talent andintelligence is not a.
Is actually sometimes mutuallyexclusive for money and election.
January 6th happens.
I get a call from Liz Cheneythe night of January 6th, and she
calls me and she says, denver,help us with the second impeachment.
And I did.
I actually.
We found seven whitenationalist groups with our data
guys that I knew that wereinvolved in that report was in Louis

(33:44):
Cheney sand by January 8th.
Pretty crazy.
And she remembered that andshe Remembered what I can do in my
Congress for this kind of stuff.
And she called me to be on theJanuary 6th committee once.
You know, it was that HR 503,I think I will tell you, I am waking
up every morning, David,hoping that the January 6th committee
wasn't just a big fart.
Malin right now.
What's that?
I also know that when you talkabout what happened on the January

(34:06):
6th committee, we definitelycouldn't follow all the threads because
of resourcing, which wasreally Congress's fault.
But the thing that I needpeople to know is Congress is not
situated to investigatemassive data based crimes in any
way.
And that's something that wefound out pretty quickly.
And then things drop throughthe cracks.
Like there should have beenmuch more on Roger Stone, on the

(34:27):
phone records, on thetelephone call that went to Rider,
to a writer from the WhiteHouse switchboard, which was underreported
and stopped at by so manyreporters because they didn't understand
metadata.
And how awful it was that theWhite House had so much contact with
rally goers, with Oath Keepers.
You know, the Oath Keeper,Kelly Sorrell was texting Andrew

(34:47):
Giuliani before January 6 thathe worked for Trump directly.
So now we have Oath Keeperswith direct line to White House staff.
This is so big, it's sooverwhelmingly awful and bizarre.
Just shows the lack ofjudgment and the unethical, immoral
and possibly illegal activity.
The Trump administration orJanuary 6th.

(35:08):
And yet the press wants toconcentrate on, say, Cassidy Hutchinson
and Trump's state of mind,which is maybe one of the most unimportant
things in retrospect.
You know, it got a lot ofcoverage and thank God she was so
brave.
But that should have led into,well, Trump was.
Had this glib attitude andwanted it to happen.
Who are the people executing it?

(35:29):
Where are the Roger Stones,Mike Flynn, the Alex Joneses and
the Patrick Burns and theMichael and Dells and the Sydney
Powell.
Right.
And the Steve Bannons.
And I think we just lost somuch in translation.
And especially, you know, the,the text messages for Meadows, which
our team found, and the JennyThomas text messages.
And I think we lost anincredible opportunity to subpoena
Jenny and Clarence.

(35:50):
You know, the, the interviewshe had at the end wasn't even under
oath.
So I think there was apolitical fear to go all in at the
congressional level.
And it's just some of thethings with all the courage that
the cast of Sarah's and thepeople that got up there and Ruby
and I just, all the peoplethat were so Brave.
I think it really didn't meana hell of beans.
And actually maybe because wecouldn't message it correctly and

(36:13):
couldn't identify all those inthe time that we had, all the people
responsible, I think we're ina really bad spot right now and to
where nobody's going to trustwhat a committee or commission says
at the congressional level.
And plus with the massive dataissues we have and the disinformation,
I just don't know right.
If Congress is suited to do that.
And I think that's, that'sreally, my, my really, my soapbox

(36:34):
is that Congress is doing theright thing and did an incredible
job with what they add.
But you need more actualcounterterrorism analysts and data
analysts that Congress were tohire if they're going to do this
effectively.
I think that's the lesson learned.
Out of all the magic andgoodness and heroism on the January
6th committee.
I think we missed the vote ofthe command and control architecture
and maybe the people that werereally behind it.

(36:55):
You look at Trump andeverybody poo poos and says he's
an idiot.
But if he's an idiot, how didhe pull off this cover up?
I mean, it's, he's not an idiot.
He's not, he's not.
He has figured out how to getpeople to do the dirty work for him
in a way that is diabolical.
But at the same time, he won again.
Congresswoman Lauren Boebert,you know, everybody thinks she's

(37:16):
a dingbat.
You know, she is in some ways,but she's also extremely effective
at getting her message out and winning.
Listen, Mo said somethingearlier about suggesting this voter
your stupid list.
I think with Lauren Boebert,Marjorie Taylor Greene, although
I think they actually areliterally morons, I think, but I
think they've learned how toweaponize stupidity in a way because

(37:38):
they have no moral compass.
There's, they're almostsociopathic morons where they know
that it's stupid selves.
And I think that's where we'reat right now is that, listen, if
Trump is ordained by God, itmeans that everything he says actually
means what he means.
And that's why you have somany individuals, I think, who are
following him.
I don't think they're justvoting for him.
I think they're following him.

(37:59):
I think they're worshiping him.
I think he has created thiscult, like, you know, sort of thing
around him.
I mean, he beat Kamala in thepopular boat.
I mean, achieving it.
Chris.
What?
You know, it's it still is.
It's mind boggling to me.
And it just shows you that anadjudicated sexual abuser is more
trusted than the Democratic Party.
Or do we have people who don'teven believe what rationality is

(38:21):
anymore or is a little bit of both?
And I think that's the reasonI'm running is what, what is it I
want, right?
I think I do.
But my God, I want to stand infront of somebody.
If they asked me, if aliensasked me to run, then I know that
we're screwed.
I think the thing that reallydisappoints me more than, you know,
the Marjorie Taylor Greens andLauren Bogart.
You know, in the Air Force, myfirst trial I ever did, in 1984,

(38:43):
my opponent was Lindsey Graham.
And then when I was the staffjudge advocate at Columbus Air Force
Base in Mississippi, one of myreservists was Roger Wicker.
I know that Rose Graham andRoger Wicker know better.
I mean, they're not morons,they're not idiots, but they've made
the calculation that it's intheir interest to, you know, go along
and get along rather thanshowing the moral courage you'd expect

(39:05):
of, you know, folks like them.
And to me, that's just really disappointing.
Well, I guess winning is moreimportant than America.
It seems to be.
To them, that's just amorality issue.
You know, Go ahead, Dave.
Yeah, no, I was just going to say.
And that's the differencebetween Democrats and Republicans
right now.
The Republicans want to win.
Democrats just want to be right.
It is.
I've been behind the door,David, with Republicans and Democrats.

(39:27):
I'm going to tell youunequivocally, Republicans are so
much tougher and don't carehow they win.
They're going to win.
Democrats, I've never seenmore backbiting, bickering, philosophical,
freaking whining.
Yeah, well, look at, look at J6man.
Again, an opportunity to pointout all of the inequities in this

(39:48):
country, the scum thatperpetrated this fraud on America
and invaded the Capitol andthe Democrats were in charge of messaging
this.
And look where it ended up.
Vis V, which you've saidearlier in this conversation.
It went nowhere.
It was the turd in the punchbowl that you were talking about.
Yeah.
And listen, there's just alack of toughness and there's a lack

(40:10):
of I get a call Denver, wouldyou accept a conditional partner?
Partner from Joe Biden?
And we could do anotherpodcast on this, David, A movie.
You know, I did the forensicson honor Biden's left and also his
phones.
So you know, they said,denver, would you take a conditional
pardon?
I said, no, I want a bar fight.
There's no way I would accepta pardon.
I don't know if I can turn onedown, but I want a bar fight.
Subpoena me frickin bring it.

(40:31):
And I think that's what theDemocrats absolutely lack.
There's not a Democrat whosaid that.
You know, we have the lawyersout there who try to, you know, self
gratify, right, by saying I'ma hero on social media, send money
to me and I'll fight theseRepublicans, you know.
Yeah, okay, you're anattorney, that's great.
I what we need, we need peopleto run.
We need people who want tofight in a public square and go for

(40:54):
votes that way.
That's the fight.
And to be on a debate stage,look at somebody said, listen, you
literally do have brain matterleaking out of your ear.
That's how stupid you are.
I just.
Because they're going to, theydo that to the Democrats.
Trump just tells them exactlythat they're pieces of crap.
Or on the Joe Biden thing, Idon't think you know what you're
talking about and I certainlydon't write something like that,

(41:15):
you know, because he wastalking gibberish and he just pointed
it out, you're an idiot.
And oh my God, you know, sothey're willing to do that.
Why in the hell aren't the Dems.
And it's because they.
I just don't know if they havethat ability to be that angry.
I don't know well enough.
Mo and I tried to runcampaigns like that and were rejected.
I mean we would.
And an area that has Buncombecounty which is, you know, very liberal

(41:39):
and we got both got chastisedby the chair there for the way running
our campaigns.
We were building a mice.
Yeah, well, I tell you, youneed to drag an ax to the Tea Party,
right?
No, we'll bring a quinoa saladto the fight.
That's right, that's right,that's right.
You're bringing what theysaid, an old noodle to a gunfight.
You know, so that's where I'm at.
Sorry.
I'm pretty specific about that.

(42:01):
The thing is there's reallygood people in the Democratic Party
who want to defend Democraticinstitutions, but man, they're scared
to death to really bang thatdrum and to go after people.
And I think that's what needsto change on the Democratic side,
the Republican side, they knowhow to win.
They know how to mobilize.
They know how to distract.
They know how to utilize theirsocial media system better than the
Democrats can even imagine.

(42:22):
Their media ecosystem is huge.
It's a freaking sledgehammer.
And the Dems don't even knowwhat's going on behind their back.
They don't even know thedisinformation, the conspiracy theories
that are undermining their votes.
Right.
And that they're, they're thetools of the Antichrist.
So they're the ones that aredeep state and globalists and they're
actually, you know, harvestingadrenochrome from children in basements
and that bullshit.
So that's the stuff that Ijust don't think the Democrats understand

(42:45):
is how willing, how specificthe mission is for Republicans to
win these races.
And they're just tougher.
Denver, thank you so much forcoming on the show with Mo and myself.
You are a hero.
I said this to you the firstor second time we had a conversation.
You're my kind of guy.
Give them hell.
Don't take shit from anybody.
I am 100% in for Riggleman forlieutenant governor of Virginia.

(43:07):
I'm going to help.
If you decide to also want toplug your book one more time, the
Breach, which is availableAmazon.com as well as on Audible,
I highly recommend that bookthe Breach.
It's an inside story of the J6committee data and information behind
that.
Mo, why don't you give Denverour final question and then we'll
say goodbye.
Well, listen, I think you hadme a bourbon.

(43:28):
This is totally unrelated topolitics, but aside from your own
bourbon, what's your pick?
Oh my gosh.
If it's a table bourbon andyou said, you know, always makers
at the beginning, but now it'sa four rows of small batch with one
big rock.
If you're talking about areally good bourbon, if I'm going
to go Cast Strength, I'm goingto go Booker's show.
But there's some other greatstuff like Calumet that a lot of

(43:50):
people haven't heard of,that's really good bourbon.
Can you get the little signbourbons like Johnny Drum and things
like that, But I got to tellyou, you know, when it comes to like
something where I'm just goingto sit down and really have a nice
relaxed drink, it's going tobe single barrel Wellers.
So there you go, Mo.
All right.
Give recommendation.
Denver, do me a favor and giveUS websites.
So www.sbdistillery.comdenver4va on X denver the number

(44:16):
4 and then VA and on Blue skyyou can find me at Denver Riggle.
Awesome Denver.
Well, good luck in Virginia.
Thank you David.
Thank you.
Moving this has been Muck you,hosted by Colonel Mo Davis and David
Wheeler.
Mucku is produced by Americanmuckrakers and copyright 2025.

(44:36):
More information on Americanmuckrakers [e-mail].