From 33 States to 29%: Paul Begala Tells the Truth Again

Paul Begala drops some serious political wisdom in this episode as we dive into the wild ride of the Democratic Party from Bill Clinton's glory days to today's head-scratching landscape. He lays it out straight: the Dems have gone from winning 33 states to struggling with a mere 30% approval rating, and it’s time to ask why. We chat about the crucial need for the party to reconnect with everyday Americans and focus on the issues that matter, like jobs and the economy, instead of getting lost in the weeds of cultural debates. Paul’s insights hit hard, reminding us that the heart of the party is its people, not the elite—so we gotta stop the purity tests and start being real again. So grab a drink, kick back, and join Moe and me as we get into the nitty-gritty of what it means to be a Democrat today, with a side of humor and a whole lot of honesty!

The conversation with Paul Begala is not just a stroll down memory lane; it’s a wake-up call for the Democrats. As he dissects the party's current woes, he emphasizes the need for a return to economic issues that truly resonate with the middle class. Paul argues that the Democrats have allowed themselves to be distracted by cultural issues at the expense of addressing the economic struggles of everyday Americans. He draws a vivid picture of the party's identity crisis—how it has shifted from being the champions of the middle class to focusing on elite cultural battles that feel disconnected from the concerns of the average voter. Paul’s insights are sharp and timely, urging the Democratic Party to recalibrate its priorities and focus on policies that improve the livelihoods of working families, instead of getting lost in the weeds of social justice at the expense of economic justice. It’s a candid conversation that leaves listeners pondering what it truly means to be a Democrat in today’s political landscape.

Takeaways:

• Paul Begala shared a compelling narrative about the slow but steady decline of the Democratic Party's influence since the glory days of Bill Clinton, emphasizing that it feels like a bankruptcy that happened both slowly and then suddenly.
• We discussed how crucial it is for Democrats to refocus on economic issues that resonate with working-class voters rather than getting lost in cultural debates that seem detached from everyday concerns.
• In the podcast, Paul highlighted a critical point about the importance of taking responsibility in politics, contrasting the current administration's approach with historical leaders who owned their mistakes and gained the public's trust as a result.
• A significant takeaway was the idea that the Democratic Party needs to be the party that stands firmly for working Americans, not just the elites, and how this core message can potentially revive their fortunes in upcoming elections.
• Paul made it clear that the narrative of betrayal resonates with many Trump voters; they feel let down, emphasizing that Democrats must understand and address these feelings to regain trust.
• The episode concluded with a light-hearted discussion about favorite bourbons, showcasing the camaraderie and humor that underlies serious political discussions, reminding listeners that politics doesn't have to be all doom and gloom.

Links referenced in this episode:

• AmericanMuckBreakers.com
• americanmuckrakers.com
• americanmuckrakers.substack.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• CNN
• John Deere
• Willie Nelson
• Robert Earl Keen
• Kinky Friedman
• Jerry Jeff Walker
• Nancy Pelosi
• Joe Biden...

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hey, folks, it's Muck U, theAmerican Muckrakers podcast where
we sling mud at the high andmighty. I'm David Wheeler, the clown
who kicked off this circus,joined by my co founder and co host,
Colonel Mo Davis. Take itaway, Mo.
Well, thanks, and hey, thankseverybody for tuning in again. It's
kind of a, we're capping offthe week we started, you know, the

(00:25):
week with Mark McKinnon andthe important role he played in Bush
43. And we're ending the weekwith Paul Begala, who was instrumental
in Clinton, you know, the 42ndpresident. Paul was the chief strategist
for the Clinton campaign backin 1992, back, you know, the glory
days for the Democrats whenClinton won 33 states and 370 electoral

(00:50):
votes. You know, nowadays we'dbe happy to have a 30 approval rating,
much less 33 states. You know,Paul's, if you watch CNN, you've
certainly seen him on there anumber of times, and he was gracious
enough today to get down offhis John Deere tractor there out
in rural Virginia and to joinus. And Paul, thank you so much for,

(01:13):
for doing this.
Col. Thank you. And David,good to see you again. Thanks.
Well, let's start by, youknow, you, you were instrumental
back in the day when Clintonwon 33 states. And we've gone from
that to, to now where, youknow, the Democrats have a, depending
on which poll you look atsomewhere between a 27 and a 29%

(01:33):
approval rating. So how in thehell, you know, over a 30 year period,
how, how did we get to wherewe are now?
That's a good question,Colonel. In fact, I'd like to meet
the 27. I mean, I've been aDemocrat all my adult life and I'm,
I'm pissed as hell. That's whyI love your podcast. I have to say
I'm a fan as well as a, as aguest. So thank you for having me.
It's very kind of you all. Youknow, it's like you remember in the

(01:58):
Sun Also Rises, there's a guynamed Mike and he's all messed up
from the First World War andhe'd been rich in England and he
goes broke and his friendsays, mike, how did a guy like you
go bankrupt? And he said,slowly and then suddenly, and that's
kind of how the Democrats havelost their majority. Slowly and then

(02:19):
suddenly, Bill Clinton, you'reright, carried 33 states in a country
where the electorate was 87%white. Nine out of 10 voters when
Bill Clinton got elected werewhite and he carried 33 states. And
I know, believe me, you grewup where I grew up in small town
in Texas. I know there isracism in this country, but it's

(02:40):
not worse than it was 30 yearsago. So you can't simply say, I don't
diminish it. You can't simplysay that there's something going
on. Even as recent as 2009,Colonel, we had 60 Democrats in the
Senate. 60, including two fromArkansas, two from West Virginia,
two from Montana, two fromNorth Dakota, one from Alaska, one

(03:02):
from Florida, Indiana, Iowa,Louisiana, Missouri, Nebraska, North
Carolina, Ohio and SouthDakota. Those are 18 seats that we
have lost. And, and very fewpeople think we can compete in those
places again. I think that'swhy we have a lot of problems. Believe
me, we'll get into with theRepublicans and I just can't stand

(03:22):
Mr. Trump. But Democrats needto look at themselves and ask them,
how have we given the Heismanto so many good Americans? I mean,
and what do we need to do tochange to get back on track?
Yeah, it is disappointing. Andyou're right, it happened so quickly
that I think it caught a lotof people by surprise. I know I've

(03:45):
Certainly in, in 2016, Ithought Hillary Clinton was going
to win, and 2024, I thoughtKamala Harris was going to win. But
you're right, I think theDemocrats have some soul searching
to do to figure out, you know,how we lost the trust of the American
people. Particularly if wecan't beat someone as flawed as,
as Donald Trump, then wereally do have a, have a problem.

(04:08):
I know you're a big WillieNelson fan and Willie's got a birthday
coming up here in another weekor two. He's gonna be 92 years old.
And we were fortunate backbefore we had the hu main hit here
in western North Carolina.Willie played here in Asheville last
year and it was a real treatto get to see him. But it kind of
reminds me of this song,you're Always on My Mind.

(04:29):
Right.
Because, you know, if youlisten to it, he's talking about,
you know, this woman, I guess,that he loved that he neglected it
and ignored. And he's tryingto tell her that even though I didn't
give you the attention thatyou deserve, you know, you're always
on my mind. It kind of seemslike Democrats have done that with
the electorate that, you know,we might have had them on our mind,
but we certainly didn't showthem the love that we should have.

(04:51):
And, and we lost their, theirlove and their support, and we've
got to win it back.
That's so insightful. It's.It's exactly right. And of course,
growing up in Texas, we got aword for people who don't believe
in Willie. We call thematheists. But you're right, you're
right. We. I actually thinkour policies are pretty darn good,

(05:12):
particularly for the middleclass. On economics, if you look
at what Joe Biden did, thejobs, the factories, it was really
good. So what I think it is,it's a couple things. First, they
do think we're notsufficiently focused on the middle
class, and they think we'respending all our time on elite, esoteric

(05:35):
cultural issues that don'taffect their lives. It's not that
people are haters. They'renot. But they're thinking, why are
you so obsessed with what'shappening in bathrooms and locker
rooms instead of what'shappening in classrooms now? I would
argue it's the other side.It's actually the Republicans who.
They can't stop thinking aboutwhere people pee. And I'm sorry,

(05:56):
I could give a shit. Right.Let's live and let live. But before,
like, I do think some of thisis on us. You know, I was, I was
on npr, actually, and I washaving a discussion with a. A very,
you know, far left strategistwho had a different take on things.
And, and we didn't entirelydisagree, but it's the priorities

(06:19):
that people think we have thatI don't think are true. But they
believe that, that we caremostly about social and cultural
issues. There's data that saysthat. And we got to get back to those
economic issues. And we got toget back, you know, if the Democratic
Party doesn't stand for theworking class, we shouldn't exist.
We created the middle class.The middle class created us. Democrats
invented the weekend. You'rewelcome. There was no such thing

(06:43):
as a fucking week. Excuse mylanguage, but you told me I could
cuss on this weekend until theDemocratic Party came along. And
yet now, and I said this tothis guy, I said, our party needs
to get back to being the partyof the people whose names are stitched
over the pocket of their shirtand not the people whose pronouns

(07:05):
are typed at the bottom oftheir email. Now, I'm not. Again,
I'm kind of against this kindof virtue signaling I'm wholly supportive
of trans rights and gayrights, and I'm a Democrat. I'm wholly
supportive. But yeah, youknow, you don't need to be advertising
your pronouns to me on yourEmail. You know, seriously, maybe
I don't have my pronouns on myman. It's change it to raise the

(07:26):
minimum wage because, youknow, I have family and friends who
are trans and they, they carea lot more about economic issues,
believe me.
Right.
And, and again, it's not thatpeople are punishing us for being
good on these issues, and I, Iwill never tolerate discrimination,
but it's, they have, theybelieve we have lost the thread,
we have lost the narrativethat, you know, my gay and trans

(07:50):
relatives, they need a jobtoo, and they need reliable health
care, too, and they need safeneighborhoods, too. And I think that's
kind of what we need to do isjust kind of rebalance what people
think our priorities are.
Right. Well, we talked aboutWillie Nelson. There's some great
Texas artists. I was a big fanof Robert Earl Keane and Kiki Friedman.

(08:10):
And I guess the one thatreally comes to mind for me is Jerry
Jeff Walker, because it seemslike the Democrats kind of been pissing
in the wind and it's blowingback on us and all our friends. So.
You're exactly right. I think,you know, folks out here in western
North Carolina are moreconcerned about putting food on the

(08:30):
table and, you know, payingtheir mortgage and, and having a
decent job than they areabout, about pronouns and those kind
of things. But, you know, itseems like for the other side, the
other, you know, the, on theRepublican side, they've, they've,
you know, kind of made theirchops by demonizing Democrats. I
know when I ran in 2020, youknow, you know, people, you know,

(08:54):
I'm a 25 year militaryveteran, but, you know, people accuse
me of being a, you know, aleftist and a communist and a pedophile
and, you know, all the thingsthat the Republicans try to paint.
Democrats and Democratshaven't had a good response to that.
And on our side, you know, wedemand purity. You know, I had groups
that would endorse me becauseI wouldn't agree, I wouldn't promise

(09:17):
to support, like, the GreenNew Deal. I'm not, I'm a supporter
of the Green New Deal, butthere are 52 provisions and some
of them were notional.
Right.
And, you know, if I wouldn'tcommit to vote for all 52, then they
wouldn't support me, eventhough they couldn't tell me exactly
what some of those thingsmeant. So we're purists. And on the
other side, you know, you gotMatt Gates or, you know, down in

(09:38):
Texas, your Attorney General,I guess, is going to take on John
Cornyn for the Senate. How do,how do we rebalance things for the
Democrats and learn how tofight and win rather than demand
purity and. And procedure?
Is exactly right, Colonel. Isexactly right. Well, because you
have led troops, you know,everybody has to agree on the mission.

(10:02):
And I believe sometimes thatwe are in coalition with people who
don't necessarily want to win.And I got no time for somebody on
my team who don't want to win.You know, I'm a Texas Longhorn, but
Nick Saban's the greatestfootball coach ever lived, and he
used to say, the greatest toolI have as a coach is the bench. Like,

(10:25):
if I don't think you're tryingyour hardest, if I don't think you're
in this to win, I'm going tosit you and give somebody else that
playing time. We, we can'treally do that. I'm not saying I
want to bench people, but yougotta work backward from the goal.
In my time in politics, I'venever seen anybody better at that
than Nancy Pelosi. Nancybegins every conversation with, will

(10:49):
this help us win? What will ittake to get us to the majority? And
then you work back from that.So way back, I guess it was 2018,
Colonel, she sent me out toyour district to recruit Heath Shuler
to run.
Right.
And Heath ran, and, oh, hewasn't pure at all, okay? But he,
he ran, he ran as a Democrat,and that's all Nancy cared about.

(11:13):
And he probably voted withher, you know, 20% of the time or
something. She didn't care.Let's get the majority. That's the
most important thing. Wegotta, we gotta get back to that.
And within the bounds of lawand ethics, we got to do anything
it can, anything we can towin. And that begins with giving
up these purity tests. Iwouldn't, I would tell any politician,

(11:35):
and a lot of them listen toyour. Both you guys, front, don't
sign any questionnaires. Don'tfill them out. Just don't do it.
Don't try to meet every puritytest of every interest group and
every pressure group. You tellthem what you stand for. And, and
if they want to endorse that,they can. But, yeah, you shouldn't
have to sign on to 52provisions on somebody else's program

(11:59):
which has some good and somebad. And if you ask me, but, you
know, it was drawn up by acongresswoman from the Bronx, and
that's a great. I love theBronx, but, you know, that ain't
western North Carolina. And ifwe believe in diversity as a party,
we better, by God, ought topractice diversity and not purity.
You're right, Paul, that it'sreally tough out here in western

(12:22):
North Carolina be a Democrat,primarily because the Democrats in
western North Carolina don'twant to win.
Right.
It's unbelievable the battlesthat Mo and I have been through.
I mean, we helped get rid ofMadison Cawthorn. We talk about this
a lot, brag about this a lot.But we, to this day, are on the outs

(12:43):
because we had Democrats signup to be unaffiliated voters and
get rid of the. And so that, Imean, that's an issue that I think
has been a theme on ourpodcast is how do we get tougher
candidates? How do we getvoters to understand that we're not
mean and terrible people justbecause we point out that our opponents

(13:06):
are? I don't get it, Paul. Howdo we. How do we. How do we reorient
folks to be a little bittougher as candidates?
You're right, Wheeler. I thinkit's coming from the. From the bottom
up. You know, Barack Obamaalways used to say, Washington's
always the last to get themessage, and he was right. And he's
right now. I am seeing it.You're probably seeing it. I'm seeing

(13:26):
it again. I'm in ruralVirginia. My county voted 71% for
Donald Trump. Okay. I'm seeingit and hearing it. And you know what
everybody is saying left,right and center. I want someone
who fight. Stand up and fight.And. And, you know, that's the classic
definition of a Democrat issomebody who's afraid to take his

(13:47):
own side in a fight.
Yeah, but we don't. We don'treward Democrats to do that. I mean,
not. Not to bring this back tome and. And low my poor campaign
for insurance commissioner.But, you know, I took on my opponent
who was on the insurancecommittee, and by the way, she got
in the race. 72 hours forfiling ended. But anyway, she was

(14:09):
on the Insurance and CommerceCommission or committee in the North
Carolina State Senate. She'dnever introduced one bill. She never
called the insurancecommissioner to account. She never,
you know, puts together somebipartisan hearing around rates or
anything. But when I pointedthat out, I became the asshole, literally.
The executive committee of theDemocratic Party sent out an email

(14:34):
to all of their buddiessaying, don't vote for this guy.
He's an asshole. He's taken onNatasha in a way that is going to
damage her in the fall. And.And I just thought, well, if, you
know, and I did it in apleasant enough way, it Wasn't like
I was being racist or sexistabout it, but I became the bad guy
somehow. And then she gets herass kicked in the fall because she

(14:55):
wasn't willing to be tough. Ijust don't understand why Democrats
reward candidates like that.
That's a really good point.And I think it's changing. I do,
because of Donald Trump. And Ican't thank him for much, but I'll
thank him for that. He isreminding Democrats that when they
lose, bad things happen. Okay?We're not just talking about, you

(15:16):
know, I mean, I helped runcampaigns against President Bush
Senior, against John McCainand Mitt Romney. We're not talking
about just normal patrioticRepublicans who have different ideas.
Right? We're talking aboutDonald Trump. Who is he? I mean this,
he is waging war against theAmerican dream and against the Declaration

(15:38):
of Independence and againstthe Constitution. I mean he's going
at fundamental Democraticlittle d. Fundamental American principles.
And so it's catastrophic whenwe lose. And by the way, all we needed
was 1 out of 100 people inMichigan and Wisconsin and Pennsylvania,
1 out of 100 to change theirminds and we win. Kamala wins and

(15:58):
I know she made mistakes and Iknow, etc. Etc. But we were a hair's
breadth from winning. But welost. And we lost in part because
some of our left wingAmericans took a walk and, and they
either stayed home or theyvoted for third party or they skipped
that race and voted downballot and, and you know, I, I hope

(16:22):
this is working out for them,this Trump presidency. But I, I do
think Democrats need to have areckoning with the extremists in
their own party if we're goingto be credible taking on the extremist
who's running the country.
I agree with you 100%, Paul.Your buddy Carville this week suggested
the left leave the party and Icouldn't agree more. I'd be happy
to give him a ticket out oftown, but.

(16:45):
So listen, I agree, but let mepress that point because I get this
a lot. I want a reckoningwith. And by the way, it's the woke
white left. When, when thepress talks about the base of our
party, I get so angry. I'msorry to yell, but I do because they
think the base of our party isover educated, over caffeinated,
over opinionated, pain in theass, white liberal assistant professor

(17:07):
of aromatherapy candle makingon social media. That ain't our party.
The base of our party is achurch lady in Orangeburg, South
Carolina. Okay? The heart ofour party is is black folks, Hispanic
folks, Asian Americans,immigrants. And I'm white as I can
be. I'm so white I get asunburn when you open the refrigerator

(17:27):
door. But I'm not the base ofthe Democratic Party. White liberals,
but they get all theattention. And if you, if you want
to know who's going to be thenominee in 2028, tell me who's going
to be strongest with blackvoters and Hispanic voters. That's
who's going to win. Becausethey always pick our presence. They
do a damn good job. And it'swhen we listen to those that woke

(17:51):
white left that we get introuble. And so Carl's point, if
we drive them out, oh, my God,we'd lose 2%, 5%. How could we possibly
win? Well, maybe you lose 2%or 5%, but then you gain 15% in the
middle.
Exactly. By standing up to him.
Barack Obama did. He stood upto him. They called him the deporter

(18:13):
in chief. He had such a strongborder policy that the left called
him the deporter in chief. Hedidn't flinch, and he was rewarded
with a landslide reelection.Same thing with Bill Clinton. I mean,
the great leaders of ourparty, the great progressive leaders,
have always been willing tostand up to the, the perfectionist

(18:33):
caucus fringe. And, and that'swhat I loved about Obama, that's
what I loved about Clinton,and that's what I'm looking for in
our next leaders.
You got it, man. Okay, solet's go, let's go back a little
bit in time. So Mark McKinnonand you went to school together?
We did, yeah. Well, yeah, I,I, I went to school. Mark was enrolled.

(18:55):
I don't mean Delta.
So what, so what's the dealwith Hank, the hallucination?
Oh, my gosh. Well, first off,you got to understand, and I love
McKinnon, and I think youcould probably take about 12% of
what he says seriously. He gota very loose grip on reality. It's
part of why I love him.
Yeah, that's true. He spendstoo much time up in the mountains

(19:18):
of Colorado.
He does. And I'm not saying incollege, he imbibed in what Kinky
Friedman used to call 11 herbsand spices. But so here's what happened.
The students had abolishedstudent government in the 70s. And,
you know, I arrived in the80s, and there's no student government.
Well, it turns out powerabhors a vacuum. It is never created

(19:40):
or destroyed. It simply moves.So back then, back then 1981, there
was $7 million a year ofStudent fees that used to be allocated
by student government throughrepresentative democracy that went
to the university's president.And the university's president, who
was a big jerk, spent it as hesaw fit. It was literally taxation

(20:00):
without representation. So werecreated student government, by
the way, we got Lloyd Doggett,now a congressman, was our state
senator. And Lloyd passed anamendment to the university appropriation
saying the presidentuniversity couldn't spend that money
without students input. Thatthe students had to spend student
money. God bless Lloyd. So werecreated student government and
we're having an election forstudent body president. The cartoonist

(20:22):
for the local, the schoolpaper created this character, Hank,
the hallucination, who youcould only see when you were high
because he was ahallucination. And of course he won
in a landslide. He won alandslide. Who wouldn't? It was fun,
it was funny, it was great. Hehad the greatest slogan ever, especially
for a hallucination. But forany politician it was be real. So

(20:44):
I wound up winning becausepoor Hank was. Was actually killed
in the comic strip, not by me,but by a little girl with an imaginary
gun on her finger gun, youknow, a little finger pistol. She
went boom. And of courseimaginary gun is going to kill imaginary
creature. Here's what I tookfrom that though. Be real. So we

(21:04):
were blessed to have noprecedent because five years out
of college is a generation. Sowe had no bureaucracy, no precedent.
We could do whatever wewanted. And I thought I got to be
real. So we set this thing upand my then girlfriend, now wife,
took some of that $7 millionand opened a child care center for

(21:26):
students who also had babies.It's still operating today, 40 years
later, generations of youngpeople have been able to get an education
while having a kid. Because ofmy wife and because that student
fees, the university presidentwould have never thought of that.
She created the campusrecycling center, which is still
operating. I created a group.I'm so proud of this, I'm sorry to

(21:48):
brag. Called sure. StudentsUnited for Rape Elimination, 1982.
And it is still operating. Andit was a campus walk system then,
where you'd get a couple offolks who'd walk a young lady home,
you know, if she was studyinglate. Now it's gotten so big that
they have a bunch of golfcarts and they drive them around.
And a year or two ago, when myson was a student, he contacted probably

(22:08):
the most famous Texas ex inthe world, Matthew McConaughey. And
McConaughey drove one of thosegolf carts and they filmed it to
promote the rape preventionprogram. God bless McConaughey. So
we did stuff that was real. Wedefeated a bill in the legislature,
lobbied and defeated a bill toraise the drinking age because 18
is good for me, and good ifyou're representing thousands of

(22:30):
18 year olds. And we killed atuition increase because tuition
was already $4 a credit andwhy would you want to spend more
than that? So I'm really proudof that time, but that's what I learned.
And the Hank thing wasformative because he was a hallucination.
He insisted that politiciansbe real. And a lot of campus politicos
to this day are out there, youknow, pissing and moaning about Gaza

(22:53):
as if they've ever been, as ifthey know what river and what sea
when really, seriously, theyought to be trying to make students
lives better. And, and that'swhat my, my wife and I did. And,
and I'd say McKinnon wasagainst all of it because he was
a nihilist back then and asocialist. He was always writing
in the school paper about howwe were terrible.

(23:15):
Hey, Paul, I want to ask youabout the. I think I always started
taping. I was telling you I'vegot on my bookcase your book that
you and James Carville put outabout 23 years ago called Buck up,
Suck up and Come back when youfoul up. So let's start. Didn't you
have another four letter Fword in mind?
We did and Carville insisted,but Simon and Schuster, I think prudentially

(23:37):
said, well, there's a lot ofbookstores won't carry it, a lot
of libraries won't house it.So we, we relented.
You know, one of the, one ofthe themes in the book, and like
I said, I've had it for quitea while and you know, when I was
in leadership positions, someof the things you guys talk about
in here were really useful.And one of the points you hit a number

(23:57):
of times, you talked aboutschadenfreude and how people enjoy,
you know, the misery ofothers. So if you've got bad news,
get out, get out in front ofit. And to take responsibility if
you screw up, you know, admityour mistake and, you know, and,
and have a plan on how you'regoing to move forward and take responsibility.
And all these things makeimminent sense to me. But now we've

(24:21):
got a, a man in the WhiteHouse who has never taken responsibility
for anything, much less admitthat he ever made a mistake. So how
do you square those two? Onthe one hand, you know, taking responsibility
is the best course but, youknow, for a man who never takes responsibility,
he's at the highest office inthe land.

(24:43):
It's a great point, Colonel.And I don't understand. I really
don't. And I got family andfriends who vote for Mr. Trump, but.
And maybe they like hispolicies, maybe they want stricter
border, etc. Okay, but hispersonal character is so reprehensible.
You're right. We had the Bayof Pigs fiasco in the early 60s,

(25:03):
and our President was. Hadbeen a junior officer in the Navy,
and he stood up, and it wasthe CIA screwed it up, and Eisenhower
gave the okay, and Kennedyjust come in and he didn't say any
of that. He made no excuses.He stood there like the young naval
officer he was, and he said, Iam the responsible officer of this
government. And by the way,his approval went up to, like, 71%

(25:26):
because even though it was adisaster, he stood up. I honestly
don't understand, Colonel. Idon't. And I don't understand people
who look at Trump and see somemacho. I think he's the weakest,
most pathetic thing I've everseen. You stand up. Everybody makes
mistakes, and Mr. Trumpprobably makes more than his share.
Well, fine. Stand up and ownit. And I'm sorry to sound sexist,
but stand up and be a man,Donald. Man up and take responsibility

(25:50):
for your mistakes and yourpolicies that haven't worked out.
He never, ever does that,though, Colonel, and he seems to
prosper by that. And I ammystified, I really am, because I
believe it's not only goodmorality, but it's good strategy.
I believe, and I argue this inthe book, that voters, they have
an inverse relationshipbetween credit and blame. The more

(26:12):
you seek credit, the less theywant to give it to you, and the more
you seek blame, the less theywant to give it to you.
All right.
You know, Ben, I have afriend, anytime he does you a favor,
you say thank you, say, well,I didn't do anything. I didn't do
anything. And it makes youlove him more. And the same thing
with blame. When you stand upand say, well, this is on me, people

(26:35):
tend to say, oh, no, thatreally wasn't all your fault. So
I don't understand it. I'mmystified. Carl.
Yeah, it's. It's shocking thatwe've gone from the days when, you
know, the breath, you know,the buck stops here. You know, I'm
the man in charge. I'm the oneresponsible. I, you know, I take
the blame to an administrationwhere no One, you know, like the,
the Secretary of Defense, youknow, transmits attack plans over

(27:01):
a, an INS unsecured commercialapp and includes a journalist in,
in the discussion. You ifthose had been ordinary military
folks that have been a, a 21year old lieutenant or an 18 year
old airman, they would havemarched him out of the Pentagon with
their, all their, in a copierpaper box immediately as they begin

(27:24):
a criminal investigation. Butwe've got all these senior leaders
that you know, are getting afree pass on what would been a career
ender for anybody else.
And it is a mystery andusually in America especially people
think that, they think, whatif I'd have done that, let me tell
you, I was blessed. I had avery senior position in the White

(27:44):
House. I was a counselor tothe President. If I had taken one
document home with me, one,I'd be, you know, on a one way trip
to Leavenworth, Kansas. Andthis guy takes boxes and boxes and
by the way, he's flushing themdown the drain. And I mean their
whole thing, their wholedefense always with Trump is diversion,
deflection and it is. I had afriend who was a public defender

(28:09):
and I asked him once, I said,how many of your clients are actually
guilty? He said, hell, all ofthem as far as I know. I said, so
what do you do? And he said,you generally. I offer the Saudi
defense. And I went to lawschool, I have a law degree, I'm
a lawyer. But I didn't, Ithought, man, I should have gone
to class that day. What's theSaudi defense? And he said some other
dude did it and that's Mr.Trump. He is the President Trump.

(28:31):
I don't want to bedisrespectful to the office, but
he offers the Saudi defenseevery doggone day, doesn't he?
Right? And it works. I meanthe public, you know, we used to
laugh that when he made thestatement about shooting someone
on Fifth Avenue and not losinga vote. But hell, it's true.
He sexually abused a woman onFifth Avenue and didn't lose any
votes. Gained votes, gainedfour points in the primary.

(28:53):
Yeah.
To me, after a jury found thathe had sexually abused and defamed
Ms. Carroll.
You know, that was one of thethings I, I think a lot of people
just grossly underestimatedback in 2024. You know, we thought
that, you know, the issue ofabortion and sexual assault and you
know, that women were going tobe the key to his defeat. And a majority

(29:15):
of white women said, oh, we'reokay with the, with a Sexual predator
being in charge.
Well, but you know, sir, Ithink it is also that they believed
we weren't doing enough abouttheir cost of living. And, you know,
when, when you can't afford tomake bacon and eggs for your kids,
everything else is anabstraction. And I really do respect

(29:37):
those folks and I think weshould have done more to address
their cost of living. And, youknow, before he dropped out of the
race, Joe Biden kept tellingus things were better than we experienced
them. And that made me crazy.And I love President Biden, but,
you know, if you go to thedoctor and you say, doc, my shoulder's
killing me, and he says, no,it's not. That's not a good doctor.

(29:59):
Like, you know, if yourshoulder hurts. So I think, I think
some of this is on us. Andit's not that abortion rights wasn't
a big issue. And I thinkDemocrats did gain a lot of votes
on it, but at the end of theday, we did not have a credible economic
narrative for the middleclass. And at a time of high inflation.
That's just a, that's just a killer.

(30:22):
Listen, I know your, your sonBilly is involved with the Barbed
Wire, which is a new newsmedia outlet that focuses on politics
and issues in Texas. We've gotsomething similar here in North Carolina
called the assembly. And herelocally in Asheville, we've got a

(30:43):
great group of, for, forwhatever reason, a number of retired
journalists, you know, somePulitzer Prize winners chose to retire
to the North Carolinamountains. And they joke that they
quickly, quickly realized theyweren't very good at playing pickleball
and they had to have somethingto do. So they started up a news
outlet called the AshevilleWatchdog that does the in depth reporting

(31:05):
that our local paper that'sbeen gutted just can't do. But, you
know, it seems like the, youknow, clearly the right owns social
media, literally, and they'vekind of beaten the mainstream media
into submission. So how do weget the message out now to people?
How do we connect with thoseworking class voters about, you know,

(31:26):
the, the messages thatDemocrats want them to hear when
a lot of the, the means ofcommunicating are no longer in our
control?
It's a really good point. It'sa really good point. Thank you for
plugging the Barbed wire. MyBilly. I'm so proud of it. It does
terrific work reporting and alot of culture, music, politics,
food. I mean, it's not onlypolitics. It's, it's. I just love

(31:49):
it. I'm biased, but I love itbecause I am a Texan. And. And I
love my son, who's amazing,but I think some of it is, like.
And what these folks are doingin Asheville, you know, President
Clinton used to say,everything that's wrong with America
can be cured by everythingthat's right with America. And I
don't know if that's trueabout social media. Everything that's
wrong, and social media can becured by what's right. I don't know,

(32:12):
because those algorithmsmanipulate you. I was on Twitter.
Oh, my gosh. I had 230,000followers on Twitter, and I was tweeting
50 times a day. I had opinionsabout everything, Colonel, and it
was mostly crap and hateful,and it made me a worse person. It
did. And it's on me. I'mmorally responsible for my conduct.

(32:33):
But it didn't do me any good.And so I tested something. Actually,
my wife's idea. We'reCatholics, and during Lent, you're
supposed to give up something.And every year, I'd give up drinking,
cussing, Twitter. The threesins of my daily life. Can't go a
day without all three. Andafter a couple years, my wife said,

(32:53):
why don't you do somethingpositive? Why don't you get on that
Twitter machine and saysomething good every single day?
So I created a hashtag, peopleare good. And my own rules were,
it's got to be an Americandoing something good that people
don't know about. And everysingle day, I scoured the news to
find, you know, a cop was offduty. He was driving home, and he

(33:16):
saw a minivan swerve and crashinto a pond. A woman had had some
kind of a seizure. He dove inand saved her life, then realized
there's a baby in the backseat and saved the baby. People are
good in. In Des Moines,Wheeler, a bunch of girls in a homeless
shelter formed a Girl Scouttroop, and they set the. They won
the state championship forselling cookies. People are good.

(33:37):
So I did this every day, and Ihad 230,000 followers. If I tweeted
that Trump's a pig, anywherefrom five to 50,000 people would
say, oh, yeah, I like that.The highest engagement I ever got.
Two years. I did this twodifferent lengths. So 80. 80 tweets
in all. 107 people. No one Iknew or loved saw it. No one knew

(33:59):
about it, because thealgorithm wouldn't promote good news
because it doesn't keep you onthe platform. The algorithm is designed
by neuroscientists who knowthat what keeps you on the platform
is division, hateconfirmation, Bias, you know, telling
you, oh, yeah, Trump's a pig.Yeah, I don't like Trump. And frankly,
the right has manipulated thatmuch more successfully. And the Russians

(34:21):
and the Iranians and the NorthKoreans and the Chinese, all our
enemies around the world, havemanipulated that far better than
we have. But so we got to getin the new formats, like the, like
the, the outlets you've got inAsheville, like my son is doing in
Austin. But also, I know youguys like him. Mark Cuban talked
to me, and I was off socialmedia then for several years and
a better person for it. Hetalked me into joining Blue sky,

(34:44):
right, where I have maybe 500followers, but it's moderated and
it's not hateful. The lastthing I ever did on Twitter was when
Dianne Feinstein died. AndDiane had been a client of mine,
she'd been a friend of mine. Iloved her. But young people only
saw the woman who was past hersell by date and should have retired
from the Senate and was reallyobviously suffering from dementia.

(35:07):
So I wanted to contextualizeher career on her passing. A wonderful
person. She was a trailblazingmayor and senator. So I wrote something
very loving and, and you know,more about the sweep of her career
than the end. And withinseconds, guys, my Twitter feed was
filled with most anti semitichate you can imagine. And that's

(35:27):
not because people are bad,people are good, but the algorithm
is bad. And so I slammed thatlaptop down and never went back on
that site. And, and I've beentrying Blue sky, and I kind of like
it, but again, it's just meand 500 like minded people right
now.
Yeah, well, it's a good placeto be, I think. And yeah, I'm a big
fan of Mark Cubans. And he,yeah, we've been trying to get him

(35:50):
to think about it, but I thinkthe family's against it. And I don't
think he wants to get too farahead of Trump on some of this stuff.
But so listen, you know,you've been an honorable guy in politics.
I'm sure you, I'm sure you'vebeen presented with some weird situations
where you could have beenbecome a bad guy or you could have

(36:12):
cut some edges here or cutsome corners there. But just like
McKinnon, you've had anhonorable career in a profession
that is sometimes less thanhonorable. Where does that come from?
I asked McKinnon this and hekind of skirted it. But where does

(36:33):
that come from? Is that yourfamily? Is that your church? Is it,
you know, a mentor along theway, what makes Paul Begolla such
a good guy?
Well, it's all of the above. Imean, I, I, I'm Catholic and I practice
my faith and I try my best tolive my faith and that, that's the

(36:54):
foundation for me. I'm aCatholic more than I'm a Democrat,
and I'm a real Democrat and,and those values which again, I,
you know, Nancy Pelosi is oneof the best Catholics in public life
that I've ever seen. And sheis always reminding us, love the
sinner, hate the sin. So we'recommanded, for example, to pray for
Donald Trump. You can't hate.I can't hate Donald Trump. I hate

(37:16):
what he does. And I do. And Ithink Nancy is such a role model
in that regard. She is, Ithink, the most effective legislator
in all of American history.The greatest speaker we have ever
produced, going all the wayback to Muhlenberg. And, and so for
me, it starts with my faith.I, I married the love of my life
who I met when we were 19, andshe has a very strong moral compass

(37:40):
and teaches Sunday school,taught, taught religious ed in our
Catholic Church and has a verystrong moral compass. And then you
get mentors. I mean, obviouslymy biggest one was Bill Clinton,
who, he used to say this to meall the time. He'd say, paulie, you
have to beware of anyone whobelieves they are in sole possession
of the truth, including you.He would say, you need that small

(38:04):
still voice in the back ofyour conscience saying maybe they're
right and I'm wrong. He's themost open minded grownup I have ever
known and really aninspiration because, you know, years
ago, McKinnon and I havealways been friends. I love him.
But Karl Rove and I werepretty bitter enemies. And as time

(38:25):
has passed, we've gottenolder, maybe we've moderated. Maybe
he and I are both too freakedout by Trump to worry about Bush
and Clinton. Right. And we'vebecome friends and I learned from
him and I regret, I really do,the hateful things I've said about
him or things I said about LizCheney or any of these people now
who are, you know, not exactlyon the Trump train. But it's, it's

(38:48):
that for me, it starts with myfaith and I, I tend to be too preachy
about it. But, but that's,that's where it starts from. Because
if you believe that we're allchildren of God, who am I then? You
know, to, to judge anybody, that's.
That'S a really Sweetsentiment. And I. It's interesting.

(39:08):
Rove seems to be a recurringtheme on these. These Texas boys
that talk about politics. Weshould probably get him on here,
Mo, I think, and have a conversation.
He's a brilliant guy. We stilldisagree about.
Yeah, yeah. Remember, youremember how much we hated the motherfucker,
though. And now he's like avoice of reason. Well, and even.

(39:31):
Even his boss, you know, I. Iremember, God, how much I just despised
Dubia and how I wanted him outof office. And now, Jesus, seeing
him with Michelle Obama, hiswife with Barack. I mean, it's just
unbelievable how you. Howthings change.
Well, w. I intensely, and Iknew him, like, when he was governor

(39:55):
and intensely opposed to. Iwrote two, three books publicly criticizing
him and his policies. But he'sa good man. When one of my other
mentors, Zell Miller, passedaway, the only person I ever saw
had three different presidentsspeak at his funeral. Bill Clinton,
who he was terribly close to,Jimmy Carter, who he started out
in the state Senate with, andGeorge W. Bush, who, at the end of

(40:17):
his career, Zell came aroundand supported Bush on most things
and not the Democrats. Heremained a Democrat, but he really
was a George Bush Democratafter being a Bill Clinton Democrat.
And Bush showed up at thatfuneral, and I went up and thanked
him, how much I was reallyclose to the family, still am. And
I said, it means so much toShirley and. And the kids, and Mr.

(40:38):
President, I really want tothank. And he looked at me, he's
like, there's nothing moreimportant I could be doing, Ben.
And I thought, that is such awonderful sentiment. He could do
anything. He could be, youknow, flying on a Gulf stream to,
you know, Abu Dhabi to dobillion dollar deals. And he took
time to go and mourn aDemocrat who had helped him when
he was president. So it's thatkind of thing. You have to. You have

(41:00):
to be able to put things indifferent contexts. And maybe Trump
has been good that way. Seriously.
Well, listen, if you were, youknow, looking ahead, if there are
two or three themes that youthink Democrats ought to be hammering,
what would you be advisingfolks to focus on right now?
That's a great question,Colonel. The. The one word I have

(41:22):
for this Trump presidency isbetrayal. I think when every Democrat
thinks about Trump, the firstthing we should say is betrayal,
because that's different fromresistance with your fist in the
air. Betrayal means a lot ofreally good people voted for him.
You can't tell me that 75million Americans are irredeemable,

(41:43):
racist. I mean, it's thefallacy of composition. All the racists
are Trump supporters, but notall the Trump supporters are racist.
You know, and it's a reallyimportant fallacy for us to keep
in mind. So a lot of reallygood people voted for Donald Trump.
People who built this country,served this country like, like you
did, Colonel. Teach our kids,police our streets, fight our fires,

(42:07):
and he is stabbing them in theback. He is betraying those people
for his billionaire bros. AndI think that kind of a message and
always circling back to theeconomics, you know, why on earth
would we're going to cutveterans benefits, Social Security,
Medicaid, Medicare, specialneeds kids so that Elon Musk can

(42:28):
get a few more million to addto his 400 billion? Give me a break.
I think that that sense ofbetrayal about middle class working
people and their economicinterest is what Democrats ought
to be talking about everysingle day. And not Greenland. You
know, ain't nobody voted forTrump because they wanted to buy
Greenland. They voted for himbecause they wanted to buy groceries.

(42:50):
And while he's distracting uson Greenland and Panama and all this
other stuff, groceries, gasand rent are going through the roof.
And that's why we hired him.He got, he got one job, cut our cost
of living. What does this meanto groceries, gas and rent? And he
is raising the cost of yourgroceries, your gas and your rent
every doggone day. And he'sdoing it to enrich, I would argue,

(43:11):
to enrich his billionaire buddies.
Yeah, yeah. I was readingtoday where I guess the budget they
put forward, they're going tototally eliminate Head Start, which
is a program that enables overa million, you know, low income families
to work. You know, there'sthis big push on, on their side that

(43:31):
if you're going to getbenefits, there's a work requirement.
But now they're going to takeaway one of the tools that helps
make work possible.
And it's just that's, and I,by the way, we ought to be about
work and people think we'reabout welfare, not work. Colonel,
the fact that you're focusingon work is so important. We want
to reward work. We want tomake it pay. So we'll raise the minimum

(43:51):
wage, we'll expand this earnedincome tax credit that President
Reagan created and PresidentClinton expanded and President Obama
expanded even more, whichgives you tax breaks if you work,
if you're low income and allof it. I believe that. I believe
Democrats should represent theland of work, right? That vast expanse

(44:13):
in our country between thegolden shores of wealth and the rocky
coasts of poverty. We shouldbe about work. And if you work for
a living, I'm a friend ofyours and you're a friend of mine
and I want to work for you.That's what Democrats ought to say.
I want an economy that worksfor the people who work, and I want
a government who works for thepeople who work. And those billionaires,

(44:35):
God bless them, they can takecare of themselves. But you know,
if, if you're somebody, youknow, working their tail off to make
ends meet, I want to be therefor you. And that's a very different
message than some Democrats want.
Well, Paul, one otherquestion. I, I'm just back from Iowa.

(44:56):
I took my boys to see grandmafor a couple days and we're in the
kitchen having dinner thenight before we left, and she's 90
and she kind of looked at meand she said, what's going to happen
to my Social Security? Yeah,Kind of quiet so the boys couldn't
hear it. Even the boys don'tknow what Social Security is. But,

(45:16):
and she said, david, you know,I could, I could start crying. If
we start talking about thistoo much, is he going to take away
my Social Security? BecauseI'm going to have to move and, you
know, what is this doing toour country? It just, you know, my
90 year old mom at the end ofher life is worried about, you know,

(45:37):
paying her homeowners dues.There's something wrong here. Where,
where is this headed, Paul? I,I don't want it to be too gloomy,
but you know that there's, youknow, a whole conspiracy theory that
April 20th is a big day forTrump. He's gonna institute martial
law, which I, I'm not too suresure about that. But where do you

(45:59):
think this is ultimately headed?
Yeah, of course, 420 isWillie's birthday kind of honorary,
but that's, that's when Williecelebrates his birthday. Yeah, I,
I have not heard that. I don'tthink that's imminent, but I think
we have to be eternallyvigilant about our rights and our,
our, our Constitution. I, Ireally do believe he's violating

(46:22):
it every single day. I thinkthis Department of Government efficiency
thing, I think it's pronounceddouche. Those douchebags are violating
our Constitution every singleday because Congress spends money,
not the President. This isreally elemental. It's Article 1.
Congress allocates money andthey say, you must have these programs

(46:45):
for farmers, you must havethis assistance for veterans, you
must have this funding forspecial needs children, you must
have grandma's SocialSecurity. Check every month you must.
And the President swears anoath to God and to the Constitution
to faithfully execute thoselaws. And so when you can't just
walk in one day and say, Idon't think we're going to have Social

(47:09):
Security office in this town,you can't do that. So he's. I think
he's violating theConstitution, all of this Doge stuff.
And I think we have, we dohave to rise up. I mean, we have
to oppose. And if you look,it's happening out there, you know,
less in Washington, although,God bless Cory Booker, 25 hours.

(47:32):
And it was a very coherentspeech, too. It was brilliant calling
attention to this. And I thinkit's more at the grassroots, although
I give Cory a lot of creditfor being one of the Washington Democrats
who's stood up. But we have tobe out there. The good news is, you
know, this Wheeler, the 35thdistrict of Iowa, Clinton county

(47:53):
on the river, eastern Iowa,Trump carried it by 21 points. Democrats
just won it by four. We had a25 point swing in five months. And
you know, that area, I mean,that is not a liberal. You know,
you're not talking about DesMoines there. So we are on the march
everywhere in this countrywhere there are elections, we are

(48:16):
winning. Now, I think we haveto protect our elections, but I actually,
I do. My faith in our peopleand our Constitution is endless and
limitless. But, but, you know,we have to, we have to preserve it.
And it's. You all are doing iton this podcast and you're doing
it in your real lives. And,and that's what's going to determine
the outcome here. I refuse tobelieve that the American people

(48:41):
who created the greatest,freest, fairest, wealthiest, strongest
nation in world history, aregoing to tolerate watching all that
squandered.
Well, let's hope to God not.I, I agree with you. I think there's
just too much momentum againstthem eventually, that. And, you know,
the other thing I think isTrump will overstep and there will

(49:05):
be that moment. You know, TomVilsack ran in Iowa, good friend
of mine, and he ran against amember of Congress that claimed that
Vilsack, while in the stateSenate, had supported a bill to allow
strip clubs near schools. AndI think that was the, the moment
when people said, you knowwhat? I don't think I like that guy.
I'm going to vote for Vilsack.And because it was so far from reality,

(49:28):
and I think that's, I thinkthat's going to happen with Trump,
too. Is or he's going to dosomething so illegal that it will
cause a problem. I, I listenedto Katherine Graham's book on the
way out to Iowa and back andyou know, her description of what
happened during the, the, theJohnson Nixon era, you know, it really

(49:53):
has a cumulative effect overtime and that's what I learned from
that, that book. And I, I hopethat happens to Trump too.
But.
Okay, so let's end up on ahigh note here. Paul, what's your
favorite bourbon? Moe is a bigbourbon guy.
It's a still Austin whiskey.It's still, of course, as a play

(50:16):
on words, but it's an Austinbased bourbon and it's, it's damn
good. I highly recommend it.
Well, Paul, you need to try.We had Denver Riggleman on and he's
one of your Virginianeighbors. Yeah, he's not far and
has a distillery. I haven'ttried his bourbon, but he's making
bourbon there in Virginia, nottoo far.
And his wife. Yeah, that's right.

(50:37):
Of course, all of us would bescolded by my friend Andy Bashir,
the governor of the greatCommonwealth of Kentucky.
Oh, God.
We're not really supposed tocall it bourbon unless it's made
in Kentucky.
That's right.
His father made me a colonelin Kentucky. I worked in that, in
that Commonwealth for a whileand love that place. But, but you
know, Kentucky's doing a lotright. I know people get mad at him

(50:59):
because their politics haskind of gone right, but they got
a right wing, but they got agreat governor and they reelected
him even though they voted forTrump. And it gives you a lot of
hope. You see somebody likeAndy Beshear winning in a state where
they're hunting us down withdogs. And part of it is like, he
gets it. When Mr. Trumpstarted these tariffs, he stood up
right away for Kentuckybourbon. And the Canadians are giving

(51:21):
us hell and giving him helland his, his distillers and bottlers.
But, but yeah, so anyway, backto. I probably should have plugged
a Kentucky bourbon because Ilove Governor Bashir. His father
made me a Kentucky colonel,but, you know, I'm a Texan more.
So that's still Austinwhiskey. Good.
Yeah, well, Andy's a good guy.I think he, he has what Cuban has

(51:41):
in common. There's not reallyan gene there that, that is prevalent.
I'm sure they're sometimes,but I think that helps. And that's
a wrap for this uproariousepisode of Muckyou. Thanks to our
friend Paul Begolla. Fordishing out zingers spicier than
jalapeno and insights that hitharder than a political cartoonist

(52:04):
pen. If you're not cackling orcheering, you might need a humor
transplant. Hit that likebutton. Subscribe and yeet this episode
to your pals who crave a goodidea brawl. Want to fuel our muckraking
madness? Donate and divedeeper into our [e-mail]
we're back next week with morelaughs and lightning. Stay feisty

(52:26):
folks and Muck you.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by colonel Mo Davis in Asheville,
North Carolina and DavidWheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina.
Thanks to our guest today,Paul Bagala, one of the most successful
American political operativenarratives in history and a model
American citizen. Catch Paulon CNN. Muck you is produced by American

(52:48):
Muckrakers. Copyright 2025.You can learn more and [e-mail]
follow us on Blue sky underAmerican Dot Muckrakers and on [e-mail]
David and Mo hope y'all comeback soon for a new episode. And
remember to never take fromanyone, especially Trumpers.