January 28, 2025 • 35 mins
Pamela Hemphill shares her transformative journey from being a participant in the January 6th events to a vocal critic of the MAGA movement. She recounts her experiences leading up to that fateful day, detailing how her initial support for Trump evolved into disillusionment as she began to confront the realities of misinformation and disinformation within that community. Hemphill discusses the personal consequences she faced, including her time in prison, and how these experiences prompted her to advocate for truth and accountability. With a background in alcohol and drug counseling, she draws parallels between addiction recovery and the challenges faced by those still caught up in extremist ideologies. Ultimately, she emphasizes the importance of open dialogue, fact-checking, and the courage to challenge harmful narratives, offering hope for those seeking to break free from the grip of misinformation.
Pamela Hemphill's compelling narrative weaves together themes of disillusionment, accountability, and personal transformation against the backdrop of her involvement in the MAGA movement and the events of January 6. Her journey begins with a passion for activism sparked by environmental protests, which gradually morphed into political engagement. Pamela's initial views, shaped by a belief in a looming communist threat, reflect a broader narrative of fear and manipulation that many in the movement experienced. As she recounts her experiences leading up to January 6, it becomes evident how easily one can be swept into a cause, often without fully grasping the underlying complexities and ramifications.
On January 6, Pamela's experience was anything but straightforward; what began as a festive atmosphere quickly devolved into chaos and violence. Her firsthand account offers a harrowing glimpse into the confusion of the day, highlighting her injuries and the overwhelming sense of fear that enveloped her as the crowd surged. This pivotal moment forced Pamela to confront the stark reality of her beliefs and actions, leading her to a period of introspection during her subsequent incarceration. The harsh realities of prison life and the company she kept in such an environment further catalyzed her transformation, challenging her to reevaluate her identity and the narratives she had previously endorsed.
The discussion culminates in a reflective exploration of hope and the possibility of change, both personally and politically. Pamela's journey underscores the importance of honesty and the necessity of confronting uncomfortable truths, drawing parallels between her recovery from addiction and the collective journey of those still ensnared in extremist ideologies. Her advocacy for empathy and understanding, coupled with a commitment to sharing her story, serves as a beacon of hope for those grappling with their identities in a divided nation. This episode ultimately invites listeners to consider the power of resilience and the potential for redemption, even amidst the most tumultuous of circumstances.
Takeaways:
- Pamela Hemphill's journey from retirement to involvement in the MAGA movement began with a protest against the Dakota Access Pipeline.
- On January 6, Pamela describes the initial atmosphere as pleasant, but chaos quickly unfolded as events escalated.
- Her experience in prison was traumatic, as she encountered serious threats and challenges from other inmates in Dublin Prison.
- Pamela's transformation in beliefs regarding the MAGA movement stemmed from personal reflection and confrontation of her own victim mindset.
- The notion of accountability and the rule of law became central to Pamela's post-January 6 reflections and advocacy.
- Pamela highlights the importance of presenting facts to those entrenched in denial, drawing parallels to her experiences in addiction recovery.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to Muck U episodenumber three with our friend Pamela
Hemphill. Pamela, great tomeet you and thank you for joining
Colonel Mo Davis and myself.
Oh, thank you. It's my honorto meet both of you.
Well, I appreciate that. Canyou give us a little bit background
(00:22):
on your experience with J6 andthen maybe a little bit about what
happened in court and your response?
Oh, that first question is along story and you'd have to more
specific what part and whendid I get started?
Well, I would say what. Howdid you get involved in the MAGA
movement? And then what tookbrought you to to Washington and
(00:42):
then what happened subsequentto Washington?
Well, first, remember backthen it wasn't Omega move, but I
had retired as an alcohol anddrug counselor. I heard about a protest,
the no Dapple protest up inNorth Dakota with the Native Americans
against the pipeline. And Ithought I'm going to go up there
and support him. But found outthat it had been hijacked. I came
(01:05):
back. I followed him for ayear and kept writing. I wrote a
book about that. Then when Iwas done with that protest, I found
a little interest in politics.And then I went on a volunteer as
a community TV show hosthelping alcoholics and addicts in
our community, just as avolunteer. And the Mega Girls were
(01:26):
all over every state flyingflags on the corner. They called
themselves the Mega Girls.They'd heard about me, so, so they
said, would you come out hereand videotape us and interview people
for us? I said I'd love tobecause I'm bored. You know, you're
retired. You just. Anybody'sasking you to volunteer, I just would
do it, have something to doconstructive. And that's when I got
involved. I startedvideotaping the second Amendment
(01:48):
event. Any type of speaker,Republican, a senator. If they were
having an event, I would goout there videotaping. I would be
live on Facebook and peoplestarted calling me a citizen journalist.
But I'm not a journalist. Iwas just out there as somebody that's
retired bored and enjoying itand meeting a lot of people and you
would. I wasn't familiar withdisinformation like I am now. But
(02:11):
you're fed so much and you'regaslighted so much that you just
soak in all this informationthey're giving you and you're not
even checking it out. But makea long story to speed it up. By the
time. Well, I had run into AMand Bundy. He was the far right militia
that started the People'srights movement. Here in Boise, Idaho,
that stood up to the FBIagent. They call him the Bundy Ranch.
(02:35):
And I thought, he's carrying aBible and telling us that the Democrats
want to turn it into acommunist country. And it scared
me, which I know now that hisinterpretation of the Constitution
speeded up. Then the lockdownshappened. And then I kept just going
out there and talking todifferent people. And then when the
(02:55):
election came around andTrump's out there lying that the
election was stolen, I wouldask people, where's the evidence?
But they'd say, oh, Pam,whatever you do, don't listen to
this news. Don't listen tothat. They all lie. The Democrats
have been trying to stealelections forever. Just believe me
that it's been stolen. And soI went along with it. And then I
got invited by my family to gothere that day because I had chemotherapy
(03:19):
scheduled in two weeks tostart chemo. And I thought, oh, this
would be. Give me a littlechance to go do something and maybe
see the White House. I thoughtit would be a fun thing. Of course,
we all know now it turned intoa nightmare.
Pam, I'm just curious. Youknow, Trump came down the escalator
in June of 2015, and then theMAGA movement kind of evolved over
the next year or so afterthat. What was life, life like for
(03:42):
you prior to June of 2015, asfar as political involvement or political
leanings?
Well, right before he waselected, that's what I was sharing.
The Standing Rock protest inNorth Dakota, I was following that.
And then when he was elected,he shut that protest down and allowed
the pipeline to go through. Sothat was my first time after being
(04:05):
retired that I got involved inanything that was political.
Yeah. I guess I'm just curiouswhat really appealed to you about.
About this movement that the.
The message was that theDemocrats want to turn this into
a communist nation. I neverheard the word fascist back. It was
a communist nation. Now, whowants to live in a communist nation?
(04:25):
And you're a naive person. Youknow, like most people, I'm just
an average. I'm not studyingpolitics or paying attention to the
news. I had a family, veryschooled in politics. They would
just call me and tell me whoto vote for and what books to read
and who to listen to. So Idid, because I respected them. I
(04:46):
didn't. I figured they knowwho's the right person to vote for.
Right?
Yeah.
And a lot of people do that.They just. They're not caring. They're
not involved. Involved. And sothey go along with their close Friends
or relative. And I was one of those.
How about on January 6, howwould you describe the, you know,
the mood and. And yourinvolvement in what you experienced?
What was that day like?
(05:06):
Well, it was really verypleasant. Everybody, you know, there
were songs going on and peoplegathered in little groups. It didn't
feel as angry as I thought itwas going to feel until later. But
in the beginning, right therewhere Trump was talking, well, see,
I couldn't get through. I gotthere at 10:30 because I had stitches,
and I knew somebody byaccident could push into me. So I
(05:29):
thought, now what are we goingto do? And I talked to some people,
and they said, trump's goingup to the Capitol. And I said, what's
he going up to the Capitolfor? He just talked, but I thought,
maybe he's meeting withCongress or something, but I'll get
up there before everybody. Andit was pleasant walking there towards
the Capitol. It was a longwalk, talking to different people.
Everybody was just, you know,the election has been stolen and
(05:52):
talking about differentthings. And I kept walking, interviewed
a few people on the way, and Iturned around, I got to the Capitol.
I didn't know where to go,though, because I don't even know
there was two sides to theCapitol. And I turned around, and
they were the proud boys. So Iwent up to the proud boys. Oh, my
God. I said, are you the proudBoys? They said, yes, we are, man.
I said, are we going insidethe Capitol? Oh, my God. Because
(06:13):
I thought they're there toprotect Trump, like a second security
or something. And of course,they're not going to break the law.
They're going to go in legallywith Trump. And I wanted to stand
close to them so I could keepvideo. I was live on Facebook for
Boise, Idaho, followers, butthey just kept walking. They went
on the side that I ended upon. And I did talk to one of their
(06:36):
journalists that was doingcamera work. I said, isn't anybody
going in the Capitol withTrump? I think a few have a plan.
And I thought, well, tell mewho these people are so I can go
with them. I want to be rightthere with Trump. But they got lost
in the crowd. I don't knowwhat happened. And I went up front
so I could be up front. Andthen I know now that they left and
(06:57):
went around to the other sideof the Capitol where the all that
violence was going on. See,I'm on the other side. I'm next to
William Dunphy, and he'stalking to an officer, and he turns
to me, and I Said, what'sgoing on? He said, we're negotiating.
They're going to move thebarriers and let us up to the steps.
And I thought, oh, that'd begreat. We'd be close to trip. Because
(07:17):
I don't know. I'm confused. Idon't know what's happening. And
I'm by myself. There's nobodyto talk to. Like, what's the schedule
here? What's going on? Butthey started shoving on the barriers,
and I got. I had taken half apain pill because I was having some
pain. I had stitches. And Ithink that hit me a little bit, because
when they're pushing on thebarriers, you know how it is. You're
in a hurry to get into abaseball game or a concert. People,
(07:40):
they're allowed to come in,but they're in a hurry, right? I
got confused, and an officerpulls me over. So I'm thinking he's
letting me in first. I goaround telling everybody, come on
in. It's your house. And thenI noticed nobody's coming in. So
I went to this officer, thisfemale officer, and she said, they're
not letting them in. Oh, myGod. I thought, oh, my God. That.
That wasn't letting us in.They were. They were actually at
(08:01):
that. They were pushing to getin, but they put me right back to
the same spot. Within a. Idon't know, very half a minute, they
did it a second time. I wastoo late. I was stuck there. And
the officer pulled me overagain. I ran to the captain. I told
the captain, I'm scared todeath. It felt like a buffalo's coming
at you. So I was running. Iwas scared of getting trampled. And
(08:22):
he said, go up to the front.I'll let the officers know you're
coming, and I'll have them putyou behind them. Because I told him
I had stitches. I'm scared.Well, I got to the steps, and the
crowd pushed me towards anofficer. But I was thinking real
quick, and I put myselfbackwards. I landed on the steps.
They stepped on my head,pulled out my shoulder, cut my knee,
broke my glasses. I was notbreathing. And the two Capitol Police
(08:45):
officers pulled me up and putme behind them. The female officer
kept yelling at me to leave,but I couldn't. I was not breathing.
She kept yelling at me. I gotall this on video and. But I just
sat there for 20 minutes, atleast. And then they pushed themselves
up, pushed the officers overand got up to the top of the steps
by the door. And that's when Iknew, you know, this is really insane
(09:08):
here. So I went to thecaptain, I got up, I could. I was
breathing, finally, and Isaid, what's going on, sir? Why aren't
they calling the NationalGuard? It's crazy. And he said, I
can't get a hold of anybody.But fast forward. I saw people coming
in and out of the door. I knownow what was going on. I didn't even
know there was a riot on theother side. I wasn't even aware of
(09:28):
that yet. The people on theother side were being taken around
and coming out on my side, andpeople were coming out and they were
pushing other people in. Thecrowd was pushing themselves in.
So I got shoved in with thembecause I. Right at the door, I was
trying to ask the officer ifit was legal to go in, but I didn't
get a chance because they pushyou in. So I sat down and then went
(09:49):
to an officer where they weretrying to get him out again. I said,
I can't. I can't be with thesepeople. They're insane. They're.
They ran over me already andalmost killed me. Can you help me
get out? He said, yeah, hehelped me get out of the Capitol.
And then I walked around, Isaw Jacob Chancely, the Buffalo man.
Went up and videotaped him.And then after him, he went up to
the front, I went up to thefront. And then that's when Trump
(10:11):
made his announcement for allof us to leave. I know you're good
people and we love you. Yeah.Does that give you.
It does.
Little picture.
It does. And obviously youended up going through some other
consequences as a result ofwhat happened that day. Having to
go to court and, and doing.Doing some time in jail as well.
(10:32):
O. Yes. Prison.
Yeah. What, what was thatexperience like?
Oh, it was horrifying. I wasin Dublin Prison, California, one
of the worst prisons. It's aunit for 10 years or more lifers.
But they had nowhere else toput me. So the girls there didn't
even believe I was there for amisdemeanor. They said, nobody has
been in this unit withmisdemeanor. But it was horrifying.
(10:54):
I just found out that JoeBiden did end up pardoning the woman
that helped me, Michelle West.He just pardoned her. She's the one.
She's a beautiful black womanthat really looked over me and made
sure the girls there were 95%women there that are cartel women.
They were planning to putdrugs in my room so I could get another
(11:15):
four year sentence or kill mebecause they didn't like Trump. So
she. I owe her a lot. Thatlady Michelle west, you might want
to look her up. She gotpardoned, you know, because I told
her when I was there, I said,look at Michelle. I think I was just
sent here to help you becauseI've been talking about her since
I got out. Beautiful lady. Shewas. She was one of those that was
(11:36):
in prison as an innocentperson, but you know how they're
all innocent. But she wasright. What was the next. Is that
all the. Did I answer the question?
Yeah, I think so, David.
Yeah. Again, Pamela,horrifying situation for you. And
I can just. With yourdescription, I can almost feel myself
there. And we've certainly allseen video, so I can understand was
(11:58):
a pretty traumatic experiencefor you. Did you.
Who you.
Who did you feel had organizedthe let's get into the cap, or was
it just something that happens spontaneously?
No, from my research and myown belief, no. Trump did this 100%
with all his enablers aroundhim and other people, I really believe,
(12:18):
who would sit for three hoursand let it keep going. Come on. He
was enjoying that, wasn't he?He's a dangerous narcissist. I think
Trump, it was going to bewild. Why would it be wild? I mean,
that should have been a redflag right there for me. But you're
not paying attention like I amtoday. Of course, that's just my
beliefs. I don't know ifthere's evidence. I think there is
some. I think Jack Smith wasable to prove that he should be in
(12:41):
prison for that, that day.
Pam, what was it that happenedbetween January 6th and like, now
you're describing Trump as anarcissist and enjoyed watching what
happened. What, what led toyour. Your change in. In beliefs
and attitude?
Well, Actually, it was twoincidents. First, I had started the
first J6Space on Twitter,which is now X to help the J6ers
(13:06):
and their families. We gottogether, we're talking, and it was
about six months after prisonthat when this happened. So it wasn't
right away. I was still avictim. I still had this feeling
like I didn't break the law. Ididn't do anything wrong. I wouldn't
have hurt any. I didn't breakit. You know, that attitude, just,
I think, a victim kind ofattitude. So what happened? I started
(13:30):
that space. Then I learnedabout Ryan Samsel. He's the one that
Ray Epps whispered in his ear.He was wearing that red cap and he
pushed bar the barriers,knocked down that female officer
with the barrier. Well, he'sin jail and he's claiming with Gateway
pundit that in jail, theguards had beat him up and he lost
his whole eye. And I thought,oh, no, this is horrible. So I did
(13:53):
my own research. And plus Ihad a lot of contacts at that time,
even his girlfriend, and foundout that he was lying. I went back
to my mega group and I said,look at you guys. This guy's lying.
His gifts didn't go. Went upto 40,000. Oh, my God. They got upset
at me and said, who are youlistening to? That's not true. And
then I came back with anotherfact on I think it was the Capitol
(14:15):
doors were not opened by thepolice officer. They got mad at me
again, screamed at me. Well,eventually they got me out of there,
wouldn't let me come back intospace. So I said, well, this is it,
man. They're lying. They'restanding up for people that have
harmed officers. I'm not okaywith that. I didn't think that's
what we were going to do,maybe research anything that the
(14:35):
government was overreachingon, but not standing up for criminals
that are beating up officers.Come on. But that's what they were
doing. So I started the J6gaslighting space, and that's when
everything turned Seditionhunters, researchers and Democrats
came in and actually gave mereceipts. Not their opinion, not
(14:55):
what they thought happened. Imean, evidence. And it's like, okay,
man. And then that's when Isaw that everything they were putting
out was a lie. You know, aboutNancy Perowski, everything, You know,
all the propaganda they'vebeen putting out. There was a lot.
It's like, come on, I've gotto do something. I've got to push
back on this. And then thesecond incident, it was right at
(15:16):
that time I went to mytherapist and I was playing that
victim. It was right inbetween before I started the, you
know, turned over right in themiddle. He said, Ms. Hemphill, you're
not a victim of January 6th.You were a volunteer. You were a
volunteer. You could haveleft. I said, Dr. Rice. He said,
no, I don't want to hear it.You were not a victim. I went home
(15:37):
and I thought, I'm never goingto see that therapist again. Well,
I had been seeing him for along time, and I realized he was
right. He was right. I was nota victim. And I had to pray about
it, write about it, and gethonest with myself, because I've
been in recovery now, and I'lljust tell you, an AA for 45 years.
I've been sober and that'spart of my program. I've got to be
right with God and honest withmyself and honest with other people
(16:00):
and take responsibility whenyou know when you're wrong, properly
admit. And so that helpedbeing in a 12 step program to get
honest with myself and makeamends. And now this has been my
amendment. It's not justsaying you're sorry. You really have
to show that make amendssomehow make it right forever being
there that day.
Because, you know, right now,for a lot of folks, you know, looking
(16:21):
from the outside, things seemrather hopeless. I think hearing
your story, I think is reallyencouraging. And I'm just curious,
do you think out of otherpeople that are still caught up in
the movement, is there anyhope of reaching them and making
facts matter again?
Yes, there is. It's notcomparing it with, as an alcohol
and drug counselor and aperson in recovery working with addicts
(16:43):
and alcoholics. It's the samething. What you're seeing is denial
in the mega right becausethey're protecting their own interests
right now, their own beliefs,religious, political, whatever. They
cannot change until they'vehit their own bottom, which they
will when they see what Trumpis doing will affect them. But all
(17:05):
we can do, the most important,is to keep putting the facts in front
of their face. I'm a littlemore, you know, the good cop, the
backup. I'm the backup. Youcan get mad at me because I'm telling
you the facts about January6th and scream at me, but one day
you'll come back and youapologize. I'm not out to make a
(17:25):
friend with you. Butalcoholics, especially in addicts,
just like the maga, the sameprinciple, you have to be honest
with them. You, it's what theyused to call it tough love, you know,
but it works because theyremember what you said and they come
back later, you plant thisseed, even though they, you know,
they scream and yell at you.Oh, well, you've been listening to
(17:48):
the wrong news. Yeah, okay.Well, I don't think so. Am I making
any sense?
No, you sure are. And I'mcurious, you have any recommendations
on how to. I mean, it justseems like it's more difficult now
to get the facts out. Youknow, Elon Musk is, you know, bought
X and turned it into somethingvastly different than what Twitter
was when it started. So socialmedia has taken a hard right shift
(18:12):
and the mainstream media seemsto have kowtowed to the pressure.
So any thoughts on how peoplethat are caught up in the movement,
how to Connect with them.
Actually, it's probably goingto have to come from somebody in
Congress. It's something wehave to brainstorm together about.
Where do we go from here? Nowthey have to be willing, you have
(18:36):
to be willing and open mindedenough to listen to somebody else
besides Trump and the megapeople. And it's very difficult right
now. They don't want to hearanything from anybody. It's Trump's
right. You know, Trump'sbrainwashed him over and over that
the deep, deep state is in,the DOJ is after them. It's not true.
It's called a system that'sbeen working for a very long time
(18:56):
very well. But he wants to getout of his crimes. So he uses, he's
used the whole nation for hisown interest. But yeah, that's a
difficult, I don't have ananswer for that right now after brainstorm
on that one.
But Pam, you've left out animportant element of your story.
Or maybe I left it out. Youcop to your crimes, you told a judge,
(19:17):
yes, I did it. And you went tojail for it.
You know what, you know whathe told me? Ms. Hemphill, I believe
you, but the lady before you,I, I think he gave her probation.
Then she goes out and turnsaround and says the opposite of what
she said to the judge. Thatwas Judge Lambert. And I said, he
said, so I don't trust youguys. I said, well, I'm not lying.
(19:38):
You know, I'm, I am sorry forthat day. But he's, I get it. See,
this is what they've done.They've just went out there and lied.
They're just lying andminimizing. And you know the big
one about no due process? Allyou got to go do is look up the court
recordings. Everyone hasgotten due process, but they don't
want to do it. It's like,almost like I don't want to reality
(20:01):
the truth right now. I got tostick with it. What do they really
want it to be? An all whiteChristian nation. I mean, that's
what I'm hearing. You know,it's, I'm as baffled with all of
this, you guys, as you arewhat to do with these people, you
know, but as you know, wecan't change anybody. They have to
be willing to change.
That's right. So, so you wentthrough a try. Did you have a trial
(20:21):
or did you just.
Oh yeah, I had a trial. No,no, no trial. No, I pleaded to a
picketing and.
Parading, which was amisdemeanor. And you got how Many
months in jail.
60 days in prison.
60 days. And the woman beforeyou lied to the judge and got nothing.
Yeah, but she went out andsaid the opposite. But, you know,
(20:41):
Judge Lamberty, I mean, thesepeople, I get it. I'm not upset at
him. I mean, he was upset thathe's trying to believe people, you
know, as a judge, and thenthey're just outright lying to you.
And then they go out and saythat DOJ was weaponized against them
and they're not, they'reinnocent. I mean, how can he trust
me? I mean, I'm one. You know,I understand, understand that. So
(21:04):
I kind of feel grateful anywaythat my judge treated me well. I
get it, I understand it. Howcan you trust these J6ers? They're
all lie, every single one.I've, I've gone through all the,
almost all the cases and I'vedebunked everything they put out
there from the proud boys, theOath keepers, you name it. Ryan,
Samso, all these horribleones. Jake Lane, the worst one that
(21:24):
had a bat. Oh, my God. Tellingeverybody he's never had due process
and he changed lawyers twice.He postponed his own, you know, just
lying. And he's made over300,000 doll dollars. They're making
money. They don't want to giveup their money or their victimhood.
They love it. Yeah, the DOJwas weaponized. It's a communist
country. The Democrats, oh, myGod. Just blame, blame, blame, find
(21:47):
fault, and everybody believesit. I don't know. That's amazing.
I never thought I'd see anation that would really buy into
all this stuff, this bs. Butthey're like me out there, not studying,
not researching, you know,what do.
You think the impact of thepardons is going to be on the, you
know, folks like that?
Is that going to horrifying orfine? What about the rule of law?
(22:07):
What does that tell you? Oh, Icould go out there and beat a police
officer and get away with it.Now, I know there's some that are
in prison for beating up apolice officer, but look at that.
This is the people that weresupporting Trump. It's like anybody
that's going to support Trumpand do something like a, say at a
peaceful protest, they go outthere, they can do anything they
(22:27):
want. They could shootsomebody they wanted to because they're
doing it in the name of Trump,because they're seeing, you know,
the protest would be somethingagainst Trump. Right. So if they
go out there and break up thatprotest and they harm somebody, Trump's
not going to care. He's ain'tgonna care. Yeah, it's very frightening.
It's very scary. I don't, Iwouldn't, I'm never going to attend
(22:48):
any events too frightening. Ihope it doesn't discourage other
people. It's only mainly forme because I'm known, you know, I
would get sitting.
Yeah, I'm curious. So what'slike life like for you now that you
know, obviously if you've madea pretty substantial transformation
in your life. So what's itlike now?
Well, you know, I still attendmy meetings. I, I have friends within
(23:09):
the meeting and I still justlive my life the way one day at a
time turn. I trust in Godevery morning. I pray for direction.
I do what's in front of me. Iread a book, clean the house, go
to meeting, you know, talk toyou guys. I'm just trying to remember
to just live my life and keepgoing on and keep trying to do the
right thing. And I just feelkind of fortunate. I'm not out to
(23:32):
be do anything perfect anymoreanymore, but mainly just stay focused
on trying to help otheralcoholics and addicts when I do
go to meetings. That's themost important thing for me right
now in my life. Now it hasbeen, is to carry this message to
other alcoholics that you canget sober and have a better life
and you can be sober and messup like I do. But there's some. You
(23:56):
can also admit when you'rewrong and make amends for it. So
don't drink over makingmistakes. Don't go using drugs because
you're going to make mistakes.You can stay sober and work the steps,
which is when you're wrong,admit it and then make amends for
what you did and move on andtry to become a better person. Try
not to repeat, you know,repeat your mistakes.
(24:19):
I imagine you wouldn't bedoing what you're doing if you didn't
have some hope and optimismfor the future. What is. Well, you
know, what is it that givesyou hope?
Our history. Now, you might bemore schooled in our history than
me, I'm sure. However, what Imean is shows that fascism has never
won so far. You know, we fightback on that. And I'm just hoping
(24:41):
that all of us can encourageall of us to keep talking, keep pushing
back, get those Republicansout there pushing back on Trump.
What is going on with them?You know, where's their courage?
They got to stop, you know,this thing about money and power.
Are afraid what Trump's goingto do to You. Oh, my God. Well, I
don't know. I, I just want tomeet my maker with a clean heart,
(25:03):
that I did everything I could.But they, they did an oath to the
Constitution. So we hold themat higher standards. Fact that they're
not push Donald Trump is justappalling. I mean, what are they
doing?
I find it amazing. Seems likethe most courageous person I've seen
in the week that Trump's beenin office was the female bishop.
Yes.
Courage to his face has to be,you know, compassionate. And it seems
(25:28):
like, you know, everybody elseis afraid to do that. So I really
commend her. I commend her forhaving the courage to do the right
thing.
I knew the minute though I sawit, I said, oh, no, he is going to
be on his list. I knew it.Look at that face he gave. Oh, no,
you, he, he was so angry. Andthen that reporter, he said, no,
(25:49):
I didn't like the sermon.Because, see, he is a dangerous narcissist.
He don't care about you. Youbetter be going along everything
he wants or you're on hislist. I did meet a lady that had
worked with him and she can'tremember exactly some department
would Interior, you know,decorating or something, but she
had to go to some of themeetings. She says he was the most
(26:10):
angriest, meanest guy. We werealways on edge and afraid to talk
back to him or not talk backto him. Disrespectful, but disagree
with him. Really? She says,yes. He's not this nice person that
he can smile out there. He'shorrible. Yeah, I, I think I relate
to him and what my ex husband,he was a narcissist and they can
(26:32):
be so nice out in public andsmile. But do you see how he treats
people with the media andeverybody's really rude and I'm not
done yet. I'm not finished. Bequiet. I mean, he's fine and they
like that. I don't get it.
Pardon, Pam?
Oh, we're doing all we can. Isent a second email to my probation
officer. I talked to mylawyer. Well, he's not my lawyer
(26:54):
anymore, but the one thathandled my case for January 6th.
He said I was on the list.We've talked to the, Let me see the
name of the office of thepardon of attorney. We sent an email.
I don't know what's going onbecause I want to, I want to get
on this. What do I have to doto refuse this pardon? Help you?
Are you the first person inhistory that's Asked to get off a
(27:17):
pardon list?
No, I just heard. Do you knowhis name? Michael. Jason. Jason Riddle.
Now he just came out the lastfew days. He's a J6 defendant. He
hasn't been out like publicly,like I have for the last year and
a half. Maybe what I've beensharing is, may create a ripple of
effect. I hope, that's my Hopethat these J6ers will come out publicly
(27:41):
and refuse his pardon. Butthat's what I was told.
And it's ironic because theyall claim they didn't do anything
wrong. So what do they need apardon for in the first place?
Yeah, but isn't a pardon ofadmission of guilt?
I think so. So, so what haveyou learned out of all this, Pam?
I mean, you know, let's kindof take a couple steps back and you've
been through quite anexperience that I'm sure you wished
(28:03):
you hadn't. What, what are thebig things that you have learned
as a, as a grandma out inIdaho about our country, about our
politics and about our people?
Well, there's, in our bigbook, there's a quote by Herbert
Spencer. What leaves a man ineverlasting ignorance is contempt
prior to investigation. Andthat has been my character defect
(28:24):
that I jump into things. Thisis for me only, without research,
without hearing both sides ofthe story. So that's what I'm going
to do from now on. I'll neverjump into something. I'm going to
listen to other people, gettheir opinion first, do a little
research and then go by my ownheart. You know, what I think is
right to do, but at least beopen minded enough to hear both sides
(28:48):
of this story, not just one,the Republicans and the Democrats,
and make my own informeddecision that fits my values and
morals. Does that make sense?
It's a lot of sense. You know,what are your thoughts on the future
of Trump?
Well, I don't know if you, howmuch you know about Project 2025.
I told Abby Phillips on CNN ayear ago, don't worry about Trump,
(29:10):
worry about the Heritagefoundation now. Project 2025, it's
those people. Trump is justtheir wolf king, his chaos junkie.
Because look at all the chaoshe's creating right now just to keep
us focused on one thing, nowanother, and now another. It's crazy
making and he'll continue andit's going to get worse unless we
(29:30):
start pushing back and pushingback heavy. This is just a little
lightweight right now. Didn'teven Hitler hide a lot of stuff from
the German people? Do you knowthe history. They will be terrifying.
I hope I'm wrong, but not whatI've seen from him and not what I've
heard from him. I think weneed to listen to him because he's
telling us what he's going todo. There's no secrets. They don't
(29:51):
care. They got plan B. I don'tknow if you know about plan B. Ivan
Rackland, Michael Flynn, andnow they've hooked up with Ammon
Bundy. They have plan B. Theysaid Biden pardons these people like
the J6 committee and everybodyelse. Well, their plan B, since they
can't use the DOJ to go afterthem. Now their plan B. And this
(30:11):
is how they interpret theConstitution. They get these shares
and that's what Michael Flynnhad done throughout the tour, collecting
and talking to these sheriffswhere they have their own grand jury.
They will arrest official andtake them to their own grand jury
and try them for treason. AndI have a video that I went to the
training where the guy says,this guy should be hung for treason.
(30:32):
This is serious, what they'redoing and planning. And it's supposed
to be under the rights of theConstitution. Oh, my God. I know
this sounds crazy, but I haveenough. I've connected the dots and
I've been. Racklind has thatlist. Are you familiar with Ivan
Racklin and his list?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'msurprised that Mo and I aren't on
(30:53):
it.
Well, I have the pictures.He's with Ammon Bundy, Cliven Bundy
and his son with Trump.They're all connected now. And this
is what they're going to planto do. I don't know. Winner. Well,
now that they got the proudboys, you know, they can get 25 people
for a grand jury. I thought,is this legal? And of course, it
did some research. It's not,but they, you know how I'm in Bundy
(31:15):
and all of them, they'reinterpreting the Constitution the
way they, you know. And then aperson like me that's not schooled
enough goes with it, believesthem, you know, and they will do
their own grand jury. They'regonna. Oh, scared me.
It seems like to me, you know,both, both the Bible and the Constitution
are probably two documentsthey haven't read, but they have
some. They have some very firmbeliefs about what both of them say.
(31:39):
I think they ought to. Theyought to take the time and sit down
and read them and. And findout what the truth is.
Yeah. But with everything theytwisted to fit.
Them, these folks have to hitrock bottom before anything is really
going to change, let's behonest. And we're not.
I know.
Rock bottom. Are we?
Well, but we can still bepushing back and letting them know
that what they're trying to dois not going to be okay. I mean,
(32:00):
it's Martin Luther King, Rosaparts. They gave us an example. Just
do the right thing, no matterwhat they're screaming about, you
know, that we're not going tolet. Stand by and let. No. Oh, no,
sorry. You know, good luck.You're going to hear from me big
time. And. But we got to getthat collective throughout the nation.
One person can't do this. Butthe right people getting out there
(32:23):
talking and, and making theCongress accountable and say, yeah,
do you want to be elected?Isn't that what you're here for?
For we the people, Right? Whoare you here for? Are you here for
Trump? Are you here for we thepeople? You got to confront them.
Confront them hard. I mean,remember the movie Mr. Smith goes
to Washington? Yeah. You know,you got to get that bad cop going
(32:48):
a little bit out there. Notbad cop, but really strong and not
afraid of it. Let him scream.Let them yell. But they're going
to, oh, I'm going to come getyou. Bam. Okay, well, come get me.
But I'm going to keep onspeaking. Come get me. What are you
going to do, kill me? Youknow, I mean, people are afraid.
I know. And they feelhopeless. And I'm hearing that. And
I heard that when Trump waselected, the suicide hotline went
(33:09):
crazy. But we could do what wecan to get the message out there.
Don't give up. Don't lose yourfaith. Come on, you guys will push
back on fascism. We are goingto win. You know, in the movie, the
bad guy looks like he'swinning all through the movie until
the end. And this will happenthis way. Trump is not going to win
if we the people will stand upand push back on him, legally and
(33:31):
peacefully, of course, always.But through the law and with the
Constitution, that's our weapon.
You remind me of Fannie LouHamer, you know, who said that if
they knocked her down, I'mgoing to fall forward and I'm going
to fall 5, 5ft, 4 inchesforward in the fight for freedom.
You remind me of that.
(33:52):
I, I guess that's a compliment.
Yeah, it certainly is. Meantone. I, you know, I really do appreciate
you giving us some of yourtime. And, and I think you give me
hope. I mean, you really aregiving me some inspiration to keep
fighting the fight that. Yeah,things aren't hopeless. We. We can.
We can get through this.
We can. Together, we can.
Well, thank you for all you'vedone and all that you're doing. You
(34:15):
said you're a real inspiration.
Oh, we. I honor both of youfor what you've been doing, too.
So you know that. Right?
Well, thank you.
Yeah. I appreciate you. Weknew more of you out there.
There's a lot of us. We justgot. We gotta all stand up together.
We. We will. They've. Theydon't realize they're underestimating
the Democrat party, I'll tellyou that. Right.
(34:35):
Well, we've got to get her. Wegot to get our act together.
But you're getting there.
We'll try. Thank you so much.
I learned. I worked for BarackObama when he ran the first time
around, and one of the thingsI learned from him was kind of hang
back for a little bit andlet's see how the other side reacts
and what they do and thenformulate a plan and then come at
(34:56):
them with both barrels. So Ithink you're right, Pamela. I think
that's. Democrats are kind ofhanging back right now, but over
time, I think they'll getstronger and the messaging will be
a little bit better, too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe that.
Okay. Well, Pamela Hemphill,thank you so much for joining us
from Idaho today. And our bestto Michael as well, who has been
(35:18):
very helpful in setting thisup, and I know you're leaning on
him. You're a delightfulperson and inspiration, and thank
you for joining Muck.
Oh, well, thank you. Any way Ican help, let me know.
This has been Muck U, hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David Wheeler
and produced by AmericanMuckrakers. More information on American
muckrakersis@americanmokrakers.com Please support
(35:41):
our work holding shittypolitics politicians accountable
every day of the week with adonation today@AmericanMokBreakers.com
donate. Oh, and guess what?Lauren Boebert still hasn't sued
us.
Foreign.
Welcome to Muck U episodenumber three with our friend Pamela
Hemphill. Pamela, great tomeet you and thank you for joining
Colonel Mo Davis and myself.
Oh, thank you. It's my honorto meet both of you.
Well, I appreciate that. Canyou give us a little bit background
(00:22):
on your experience with J6 andthen maybe a little bit about what
happened in court and your response?
Oh, that first question is along story and you'd have to more
specific what part and whendid I get started?
Well, I would say what. Howdid you get involved in the MAGA
movement? And then what tookbrought you to to Washington and
(00:42):
then what happened subsequentto Washington?
Well, first, remember backthen it wasn't Omega move, but I
had retired as an alcohol anddrug counselor. I heard about a protest,
the no Dapple protest up inNorth Dakota with the Native Americans
against the pipeline. And Ithought I'm going to go up there
and support him. But found outthat it had been hijacked. I came
(01:05):
back. I followed him for ayear and kept writing. I wrote a
book about that. Then when Iwas done with that protest, I found
a little interest in politics.And then I went on a volunteer as
a community TV show hosthelping alcoholics and addicts in
our community, just as avolunteer. And the Mega Girls were
(01:26):
all over every state flyingflags on the corner. They called
themselves the Mega Girls.They'd heard about me, so, so they
said, would you come out hereand videotape us and interview people
for us? I said I'd love tobecause I'm bored. You know, you're
retired. You just. Anybody'sasking you to volunteer, I just would
do it, have something to doconstructive. And that's when I got
involved. I startedvideotaping the second Amendment
(01:48):
event. Any type of speaker,Republican, a senator. If they were
having an event, I would goout there videotaping. I would be
live on Facebook and peoplestarted calling me a citizen journalist.
But I'm not a journalist. Iwas just out there as somebody that's
retired bored and enjoying itand meeting a lot of people and you
would. I wasn't familiar withdisinformation like I am now. But
(02:11):
you're fed so much and you'regaslighted so much that you just
soak in all this informationthey're giving you and you're not
even checking it out. But makea long story to speed it up. By the
time. Well, I had run into AMand Bundy. He was the far right militia
that started the People'srights movement. Here in Boise, Idaho,
that stood up to the FBIagent. They call him the Bundy Ranch.
(02:35):
And I thought, he's carrying aBible and telling us that the Democrats
want to turn it into acommunist country. And it scared
me, which I know now that hisinterpretation of the Constitution
speeded up. Then the lockdownshappened. And then I kept just going
out there and talking todifferent people. And then when the
(02:55):
election came around andTrump's out there lying that the
election was stolen, I wouldask people, where's the evidence?
But they'd say, oh, Pam,whatever you do, don't listen to
this news. Don't listen tothat. They all lie. The Democrats
have been trying to stealelections forever. Just believe me
that it's been stolen. And soI went along with it. And then I
got invited by my family to gothere that day because I had chemotherapy
(03:19):
scheduled in two weeks tostart chemo. And I thought, oh, this
would be. Give me a littlechance to go do something and maybe
see the White House. I thoughtit would be a fun thing. Of course,
we all know now it turned intoa nightmare.
Pam, I'm just curious. Youknow, Trump came down the escalator
in June of 2015, and then theMAGA movement kind of evolved over
the next year or so afterthat. What was life, life like for
(03:42):
you prior to June of 2015, asfar as political involvement or political
leanings?
Well, right before he waselected, that's what I was sharing.
The Standing Rock protest inNorth Dakota, I was following that.
And then when he was elected,he shut that protest down and allowed
the pipeline to go through. Sothat was my first time after being
(04:05):
retired that I got involved inanything that was political.
Yeah. I guess I'm just curiouswhat really appealed to you about.
About this movement that the.
The message was that theDemocrats want to turn this into
a communist nation. I neverheard the word fascist back. It was
a communist nation. Now, whowants to live in a communist nation?
(04:25):
And you're a naive person. Youknow, like most people, I'm just
an average. I'm not studyingpolitics or paying attention to the
news. I had a family, veryschooled in politics. They would
just call me and tell me whoto vote for and what books to read
and who to listen to. So Idid, because I respected them. I
(04:46):
didn't. I figured they knowwho's the right person to vote for.
Right?
Yeah.
And a lot of people do that.They just. They're not caring. They're
not involved. Involved. And sothey go along with their close Friends
or relative. And I was one of those.
How about on January 6, howwould you describe the, you know,
the mood and. And yourinvolvement in what you experienced?
What was that day like?
(05:06):
Well, it was really verypleasant. Everybody, you know, there
were songs going on and peoplegathered in little groups. It didn't
feel as angry as I thought itwas going to feel until later. But
in the beginning, right therewhere Trump was talking, well, see,
I couldn't get through. I gotthere at 10:30 because I had stitches,
and I knew somebody byaccident could push into me. So I
(05:29):
thought, now what are we goingto do? And I talked to some people,
and they said, trump's goingup to the Capitol. And I said, what's
he going up to the Capitolfor? He just talked, but I thought,
maybe he's meeting withCongress or something, but I'll get
up there before everybody. Andit was pleasant walking there towards
the Capitol. It was a longwalk, talking to different people.
Everybody was just, you know,the election has been stolen and
(05:52):
talking about differentthings. And I kept walking, interviewed
a few people on the way, and Iturned around, I got to the Capitol.
I didn't know where to go,though, because I don't even know
there was two sides to theCapitol. And I turned around, and
they were the proud boys. So Iwent up to the proud boys. Oh, my
God. I said, are you the proudBoys? They said, yes, we are, man.
I said, are we going insidethe Capitol? Oh, my God. Because
(06:13):
I thought they're there toprotect Trump, like a second security
or something. And of course,they're not going to break the law.
They're going to go in legallywith Trump. And I wanted to stand
close to them so I could keepvideo. I was live on Facebook for
Boise, Idaho, followers, butthey just kept walking. They went
on the side that I ended upon. And I did talk to one of their
(06:36):
journalists that was doingcamera work. I said, isn't anybody
going in the Capitol withTrump? I think a few have a plan.
And I thought, well, tell mewho these people are so I can go
with them. I want to be rightthere with Trump. But they got lost
in the crowd. I don't knowwhat happened. And I went up front
so I could be up front. Andthen I know now that they left and
(06:57):
went around to the other sideof the Capitol where the all that
violence was going on. See,I'm on the other side. I'm next to
William Dunphy, and he'stalking to an officer, and he turns
to me, and I Said, what'sgoing on? He said, we're negotiating.
They're going to move thebarriers and let us up to the steps.
And I thought, oh, that'd begreat. We'd be close to trip. Because
(07:17):
I don't know. I'm confused. Idon't know what's happening. And
I'm by myself. There's nobodyto talk to. Like, what's the schedule
here? What's going on? Butthey started shoving on the barriers,
and I got. I had taken half apain pill because I was having some
pain. I had stitches. And Ithink that hit me a little bit, because
when they're pushing on thebarriers, you know how it is. You're
in a hurry to get into abaseball game or a concert. People,
(07:40):
they're allowed to come in,but they're in a hurry, right? I
got confused, and an officerpulls me over. So I'm thinking he's
letting me in first. I goaround telling everybody, come on
in. It's your house. And thenI noticed nobody's coming in. So
I went to this officer, thisfemale officer, and she said, they're
not letting them in. Oh, myGod. I thought, oh, my God. That.
That wasn't letting us in.They were. They were actually at
(08:01):
that. They were pushing to getin, but they put me right back to
the same spot. Within a. Idon't know, very half a minute, they
did it a second time. I wastoo late. I was stuck there. And
the officer pulled me overagain. I ran to the captain. I told
the captain, I'm scared todeath. It felt like a buffalo's coming
at you. So I was running. Iwas scared of getting trampled. And
(08:22):
he said, go up to the front.I'll let the officers know you're
coming, and I'll have them putyou behind them. Because I told him
I had stitches. I'm scared.Well, I got to the steps, and the
crowd pushed me towards anofficer. But I was thinking real
quick, and I put myselfbackwards. I landed on the steps.
They stepped on my head,pulled out my shoulder, cut my knee,
broke my glasses. I was notbreathing. And the two Capitol Police
(08:45):
officers pulled me up and putme behind them. The female officer
kept yelling at me to leave,but I couldn't. I was not breathing.
She kept yelling at me. I gotall this on video and. But I just
sat there for 20 minutes, atleast. And then they pushed themselves
up, pushed the officers overand got up to the top of the steps
by the door. And that's when Iknew, you know, this is really insane
(09:08):
here. So I went to thecaptain, I got up, I could. I was
breathing, finally, and Isaid, what's going on, sir? Why aren't
they calling the NationalGuard? It's crazy. And he said, I
can't get a hold of anybody.But fast forward. I saw people coming
in and out of the door. I knownow what was going on. I didn't even
know there was a riot on theother side. I wasn't even aware of
(09:28):
that yet. The people on theother side were being taken around
and coming out on my side, andpeople were coming out and they were
pushing other people in. Thecrowd was pushing themselves in.
So I got shoved in with thembecause I. Right at the door, I was
trying to ask the officer ifit was legal to go in, but I didn't
get a chance because they pushyou in. So I sat down and then went
(09:49):
to an officer where they weretrying to get him out again. I said,
I can't. I can't be with thesepeople. They're insane. They're.
They ran over me already andalmost killed me. Can you help me
get out? He said, yeah, hehelped me get out of the Capitol.
And then I walked around, Isaw Jacob Chancely, the Buffalo man.
Went up and videotaped him.And then after him, he went up to
the front, I went up to thefront. And then that's when Trump
(10:11):
made his announcement for allof us to leave. I know you're good
people and we love you. Yeah.Does that give you.
It does.
Little picture.
It does. And obviously youended up going through some other
consequences as a result ofwhat happened that day. Having to
go to court and, and doing.Doing some time in jail as well.
(10:32):
O. Yes. Prison.
Yeah. What, what was thatexperience like?
Oh, it was horrifying. I wasin Dublin Prison, California, one
of the worst prisons. It's aunit for 10 years or more lifers.
But they had nowhere else toput me. So the girls there didn't
even believe I was there for amisdemeanor. They said, nobody has
been in this unit withmisdemeanor. But it was horrifying.
(10:54):
I just found out that JoeBiden did end up pardoning the woman
that helped me, Michelle West.He just pardoned her. She's the one.
She's a beautiful black womanthat really looked over me and made
sure the girls there were 95%women there that are cartel women.
They were planning to putdrugs in my room so I could get another
(11:15):
four year sentence or kill mebecause they didn't like Trump. So
she. I owe her a lot. Thatlady Michelle west, you might want
to look her up. She gotpardoned, you know, because I told
her when I was there, I said,look at Michelle. I think I was just
sent here to help you becauseI've been talking about her since
I got out. Beautiful lady. Shewas. She was one of those that was
(11:36):
in prison as an innocentperson, but you know how they're
all innocent. But she wasright. What was the next. Is that
all the. Did I answer the question?
Yeah, I think so, David.
Yeah. Again, Pamela,horrifying situation for you. And
I can just. With yourdescription, I can almost feel myself
there. And we've certainly allseen video, so I can understand was
(11:58):
a pretty traumatic experiencefor you. Did you.
Who you.
Who did you feel had organizedthe let's get into the cap, or was
it just something that happens spontaneously?
No, from my research and myown belief, no. Trump did this 100%
with all his enablers aroundhim and other people, I really believe,
(12:18):
who would sit for three hoursand let it keep going. Come on. He
was enjoying that, wasn't he?He's a dangerous narcissist. I think
Trump, it was going to bewild. Why would it be wild? I mean,
that should have been a redflag right there for me. But you're
not paying attention like I amtoday. Of course, that's just my
beliefs. I don't know ifthere's evidence. I think there is
some. I think Jack Smith wasable to prove that he should be in
(12:41):
prison for that, that day.
Pam, what was it that happenedbetween January 6th and like, now
you're describing Trump as anarcissist and enjoyed watching what
happened. What, what led toyour. Your change in. In beliefs
and attitude?
Well, Actually, it was twoincidents. First, I had started the
first J6Space on Twitter,which is now X to help the J6ers
(13:06):
and their families. We gottogether, we're talking, and it was
about six months after prisonthat when this happened. So it wasn't
right away. I was still avictim. I still had this feeling
like I didn't break the law. Ididn't do anything wrong. I wouldn't
have hurt any. I didn't breakit. You know, that attitude, just,
I think, a victim kind ofattitude. So what happened? I started
(13:30):
that space. Then I learnedabout Ryan Samsel. He's the one that
Ray Epps whispered in his ear.He was wearing that red cap and he
pushed bar the barriers,knocked down that female officer
with the barrier. Well, he'sin jail and he's claiming with Gateway
pundit that in jail, theguards had beat him up and he lost
his whole eye. And I thought,oh, no, this is horrible. So I did
(13:53):
my own research. And plus Ihad a lot of contacts at that time,
even his girlfriend, and foundout that he was lying. I went back
to my mega group and I said,look at you guys. This guy's lying.
His gifts didn't go. Went upto 40,000. Oh, my God. They got upset
at me and said, who are youlistening to? That's not true. And
then I came back with anotherfact on I think it was the Capitol
(14:15):
doors were not opened by thepolice officer. They got mad at me
again, screamed at me. Well,eventually they got me out of there,
wouldn't let me come back intospace. So I said, well, this is it,
man. They're lying. They'restanding up for people that have
harmed officers. I'm not okaywith that. I didn't think that's
what we were going to do,maybe research anything that the
(14:35):
government was overreachingon, but not standing up for criminals
that are beating up officers.Come on. But that's what they were
doing. So I started the J6gaslighting space, and that's when
everything turned Seditionhunters, researchers and Democrats
came in and actually gave mereceipts. Not their opinion, not
(14:55):
what they thought happened. Imean, evidence. And it's like, okay,
man. And then that's when Isaw that everything they were putting
out was a lie. You know, aboutNancy Perowski, everything, You know,
all the propaganda they'vebeen putting out. There was a lot.
It's like, come on, I've gotto do something. I've got to push
back on this. And then thesecond incident, it was right at
(15:16):
that time I went to mytherapist and I was playing that
victim. It was right inbetween before I started the, you
know, turned over right in themiddle. He said, Ms. Hemphill, you're
not a victim of January 6th.You were a volunteer. You were a
volunteer. You could haveleft. I said, Dr. Rice. He said,
no, I don't want to hear it.You were not a victim. I went home
(15:37):
and I thought, I'm never goingto see that therapist again. Well,
I had been seeing him for along time, and I realized he was
right. He was right. I was nota victim. And I had to pray about
it, write about it, and gethonest with myself, because I've
been in recovery now, and I'lljust tell you, an AA for 45 years.
I've been sober and that'spart of my program. I've got to be
right with God and honest withmyself and honest with other people
(16:00):
and take responsibility whenyou know when you're wrong, properly
admit. And so that helpedbeing in a 12 step program to get
honest with myself and makeamends. And now this has been my
amendment. It's not justsaying you're sorry. You really have
to show that make amendssomehow make it right forever being
there that day.
Because, you know, right now,for a lot of folks, you know, looking
(16:21):
from the outside, things seemrather hopeless. I think hearing
your story, I think is reallyencouraging. And I'm just curious,
do you think out of otherpeople that are still caught up in
the movement, is there anyhope of reaching them and making
facts matter again?
Yes, there is. It's notcomparing it with, as an alcohol
and drug counselor and aperson in recovery working with addicts
(16:43):
and alcoholics. It's the samething. What you're seeing is denial
in the mega right becausethey're protecting their own interests
right now, their own beliefs,religious, political, whatever. They
cannot change until they'vehit their own bottom, which they
will when they see what Trumpis doing will affect them. But all
(17:05):
we can do, the most important,is to keep putting the facts in front
of their face. I'm a littlemore, you know, the good cop, the
backup. I'm the backup. Youcan get mad at me because I'm telling
you the facts about January6th and scream at me, but one day
you'll come back and youapologize. I'm not out to make a
(17:25):
friend with you. Butalcoholics, especially in addicts,
just like the maga, the sameprinciple, you have to be honest
with them. You, it's what theyused to call it tough love, you know,
but it works because theyremember what you said and they come
back later, you plant thisseed, even though they, you know,
they scream and yell at you.Oh, well, you've been listening to
(17:48):
the wrong news. Yeah, okay.Well, I don't think so. Am I making
any sense?
No, you sure are. And I'mcurious, you have any recommendations
on how to. I mean, it justseems like it's more difficult now
to get the facts out. Youknow, Elon Musk is, you know, bought
X and turned it into somethingvastly different than what Twitter
was when it started. So socialmedia has taken a hard right shift
(18:12):
and the mainstream media seemsto have kowtowed to the pressure.
So any thoughts on how peoplethat are caught up in the movement,
how to Connect with them.
Actually, it's probably goingto have to come from somebody in
Congress. It's something wehave to brainstorm together about.
Where do we go from here? Nowthey have to be willing, you have
(18:36):
to be willing and open mindedenough to listen to somebody else
besides Trump and the megapeople. And it's very difficult right
now. They don't want to hearanything from anybody. It's Trump's
right. You know, Trump'sbrainwashed him over and over that
the deep, deep state is in,the DOJ is after them. It's not true.
It's called a system that'sbeen working for a very long time
(18:56):
very well. But he wants to getout of his crimes. So he uses, he's
used the whole nation for hisown interest. But yeah, that's a
difficult, I don't have ananswer for that right now after brainstorm
on that one.
But Pam, you've left out animportant element of your story.
Or maybe I left it out. Youcop to your crimes, you told a judge,
(19:17):
yes, I did it. And you went tojail for it.
You know what, you know whathe told me? Ms. Hemphill, I believe
you, but the lady before you,I, I think he gave her probation.
Then she goes out and turnsaround and says the opposite of what
she said to the judge. Thatwas Judge Lambert. And I said, he
said, so I don't trust youguys. I said, well, I'm not lying.
(19:38):
You know, I'm, I am sorry forthat day. But he's, I get it. See,
this is what they've done.They've just went out there and lied.
They're just lying andminimizing. And you know the big
one about no due process? Allyou got to go do is look up the court
recordings. Everyone hasgotten due process, but they don't
want to do it. It's like,almost like I don't want to reality
(20:01):
the truth right now. I got tostick with it. What do they really
want it to be? An all whiteChristian nation. I mean, that's
what I'm hearing. You know,it's, I'm as baffled with all of
this, you guys, as you arewhat to do with these people, you
know, but as you know, wecan't change anybody. They have to
be willing to change.
That's right. So, so you wentthrough a try. Did you have a trial
(20:21):
or did you just.
Oh yeah, I had a trial. No,no, no trial. No, I pleaded to a
picketing and.
Parading, which was amisdemeanor. And you got how Many
months in jail.
60 days in prison.
60 days. And the woman beforeyou lied to the judge and got nothing.
Yeah, but she went out andsaid the opposite. But, you know,
(20:41):
Judge Lamberty, I mean, thesepeople, I get it. I'm not upset at
him. I mean, he was upset thathe's trying to believe people, you
know, as a judge, and thenthey're just outright lying to you.
And then they go out and saythat DOJ was weaponized against them
and they're not, they'reinnocent. I mean, how can he trust
me? I mean, I'm one. You know,I understand, understand that. So
(21:04):
I kind of feel grateful anywaythat my judge treated me well. I
get it, I understand it. Howcan you trust these J6ers? They're
all lie, every single one.I've, I've gone through all the,
almost all the cases and I'vedebunked everything they put out
there from the proud boys, theOath keepers, you name it. Ryan,
Samso, all these horribleones. Jake Lane, the worst one that
(21:24):
had a bat. Oh, my God. Tellingeverybody he's never had due process
and he changed lawyers twice.He postponed his own, you know, just
lying. And he's made over300,000 doll dollars. They're making
money. They don't want to giveup their money or their victimhood.
They love it. Yeah, the DOJwas weaponized. It's a communist
country. The Democrats, oh, myGod. Just blame, blame, blame, find
(21:47):
fault, and everybody believesit. I don't know. That's amazing.
I never thought I'd see anation that would really buy into
all this stuff, this bs. Butthey're like me out there, not studying,
not researching, you know,what do.
You think the impact of thepardons is going to be on the, you
know, folks like that?
Is that going to horrifying orfine? What about the rule of law?
(22:07):
What does that tell you? Oh, Icould go out there and beat a police
officer and get away with it.Now, I know there's some that are
in prison for beating up apolice officer, but look at that.
This is the people that weresupporting Trump. It's like anybody
that's going to support Trumpand do something like a, say at a
peaceful protest, they go outthere, they can do anything they
(22:27):
want. They could shootsomebody they wanted to because they're
doing it in the name of Trump,because they're seeing, you know,
the protest would be somethingagainst Trump. Right. So if they
go out there and break up thatprotest and they harm somebody, Trump's
not going to care. He's ain'tgonna care. Yeah, it's very frightening.
It's very scary. I don't, Iwouldn't, I'm never going to attend
(22:48):
any events too frightening. Ihope it doesn't discourage other
people. It's only mainly forme because I'm known, you know, I
would get sitting.
Yeah, I'm curious. So what'slike life like for you now that you
know, obviously if you've madea pretty substantial transformation
in your life. So what's itlike now?
Well, you know, I still attendmy meetings. I, I have friends within
(23:09):
the meeting and I still justlive my life the way one day at a
time turn. I trust in Godevery morning. I pray for direction.
I do what's in front of me. Iread a book, clean the house, go
to meeting, you know, talk toyou guys. I'm just trying to remember
to just live my life and keepgoing on and keep trying to do the
right thing. And I just feelkind of fortunate. I'm not out to
(23:32):
be do anything perfect anymoreanymore, but mainly just stay focused
on trying to help otheralcoholics and addicts when I do
go to meetings. That's themost important thing for me right
now in my life. Now it hasbeen, is to carry this message to
other alcoholics that you canget sober and have a better life
and you can be sober and messup like I do. But there's some. You
(23:56):
can also admit when you'rewrong and make amends for it. So
don't drink over makingmistakes. Don't go using drugs because
you're going to make mistakes.You can stay sober and work the steps,
which is when you're wrong,admit it and then make amends for
what you did and move on andtry to become a better person. Try
not to repeat, you know,repeat your mistakes.
(24:19):
I imagine you wouldn't bedoing what you're doing if you didn't
have some hope and optimismfor the future. What is. Well, you
know, what is it that givesyou hope?
Our history. Now, you might bemore schooled in our history than
me, I'm sure. However, what Imean is shows that fascism has never
won so far. You know, we fightback on that. And I'm just hoping
(24:41):
that all of us can encourageall of us to keep talking, keep pushing
back, get those Republicansout there pushing back on Trump.
What is going on with them?You know, where's their courage?
They got to stop, you know,this thing about money and power.
Are afraid what Trump's goingto do to You. Oh, my God. Well, I
don't know. I, I just want tomeet my maker with a clean heart,
(25:03):
that I did everything I could.But they, they did an oath to the
Constitution. So we hold themat higher standards. Fact that they're
not push Donald Trump is justappalling. I mean, what are they
doing?
I find it amazing. Seems likethe most courageous person I've seen
in the week that Trump's beenin office was the female bishop.
Yes.
Courage to his face has to be,you know, compassionate. And it seems
(25:28):
like, you know, everybody elseis afraid to do that. So I really
commend her. I commend her forhaving the courage to do the right
thing.
I knew the minute though I sawit, I said, oh, no, he is going to
be on his list. I knew it.Look at that face he gave. Oh, no,
you, he, he was so angry. Andthen that reporter, he said, no,
(25:49):
I didn't like the sermon.Because, see, he is a dangerous narcissist.
He don't care about you. Youbetter be going along everything
he wants or you're on hislist. I did meet a lady that had
worked with him and she can'tremember exactly some department
would Interior, you know,decorating or something, but she
had to go to some of themeetings. She says he was the most
(26:10):
angriest, meanest guy. We werealways on edge and afraid to talk
back to him or not talk backto him. Disrespectful, but disagree
with him. Really? She says,yes. He's not this nice person that
he can smile out there. He'shorrible. Yeah, I, I think I relate
to him and what my ex husband,he was a narcissist and they can
(26:32):
be so nice out in public andsmile. But do you see how he treats
people with the media andeverybody's really rude and I'm not
done yet. I'm not finished. Bequiet. I mean, he's fine and they
like that. I don't get it.
Pardon, Pam?
Oh, we're doing all we can. Isent a second email to my probation
officer. I talked to mylawyer. Well, he's not my lawyer
(26:54):
anymore, but the one thathandled my case for January 6th.
He said I was on the list.We've talked to the, Let me see the
name of the office of thepardon of attorney. We sent an email.
I don't know what's going onbecause I want to, I want to get
on this. What do I have to doto refuse this pardon? Help you?
Are you the first person inhistory that's Asked to get off a
(27:17):
pardon list?
No, I just heard. Do you knowhis name? Michael. Jason. Jason Riddle.
Now he just came out the lastfew days. He's a J6 defendant. He
hasn't been out like publicly,like I have for the last year and
a half. Maybe what I've beensharing is, may create a ripple of
effect. I hope, that's my Hopethat these J6ers will come out publicly
(27:41):
and refuse his pardon. Butthat's what I was told.
And it's ironic because theyall claim they didn't do anything
wrong. So what do they need apardon for in the first place?
Yeah, but isn't a pardon ofadmission of guilt?
I think so. So, so what haveyou learned out of all this, Pam?
I mean, you know, let's kindof take a couple steps back and you've
been through quite anexperience that I'm sure you wished
(28:03):
you hadn't. What, what are thebig things that you have learned
as a, as a grandma out inIdaho about our country, about our
politics and about our people?
Well, there's, in our bigbook, there's a quote by Herbert
Spencer. What leaves a man ineverlasting ignorance is contempt
prior to investigation. Andthat has been my character defect
(28:24):
that I jump into things. Thisis for me only, without research,
without hearing both sides ofthe story. So that's what I'm going
to do from now on. I'll neverjump into something. I'm going to
listen to other people, gettheir opinion first, do a little
research and then go by my ownheart. You know, what I think is
right to do, but at least beopen minded enough to hear both sides
(28:48):
of this story, not just one,the Republicans and the Democrats,
and make my own informeddecision that fits my values and
morals. Does that make sense?
It's a lot of sense. You know,what are your thoughts on the future
of Trump?
Well, I don't know if you, howmuch you know about Project 2025.
I told Abby Phillips on CNN ayear ago, don't worry about Trump,
(29:10):
worry about the Heritagefoundation now. Project 2025, it's
those people. Trump is justtheir wolf king, his chaos junkie.
Because look at all the chaoshe's creating right now just to keep
us focused on one thing, nowanother, and now another. It's crazy
making and he'll continue andit's going to get worse unless we
(29:30):
start pushing back and pushingback heavy. This is just a little
lightweight right now. Didn'teven Hitler hide a lot of stuff from
the German people? Do you knowthe history. They will be terrifying.
I hope I'm wrong, but not whatI've seen from him and not what I've
heard from him. I think weneed to listen to him because he's
telling us what he's going todo. There's no secrets. They don't
(29:51):
care. They got plan B. I don'tknow if you know about plan B. Ivan
Rackland, Michael Flynn, andnow they've hooked up with Ammon
Bundy. They have plan B. Theysaid Biden pardons these people like
the J6 committee and everybodyelse. Well, their plan B, since they
can't use the DOJ to go afterthem. Now their plan B. And this
(30:11):
is how they interpret theConstitution. They get these shares
and that's what Michael Flynnhad done throughout the tour, collecting
and talking to these sheriffswhere they have their own grand jury.
They will arrest official andtake them to their own grand jury
and try them for treason. AndI have a video that I went to the
training where the guy says,this guy should be hung for treason.
(30:32):
This is serious, what they'redoing and planning. And it's supposed
to be under the rights of theConstitution. Oh, my God. I know
this sounds crazy, but I haveenough. I've connected the dots and
I've been. Racklind has thatlist. Are you familiar with Ivan
Racklin and his list?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'msurprised that Mo and I aren't on
(30:53):
it.
Well, I have the pictures.He's with Ammon Bundy, Cliven Bundy
and his son with Trump.They're all connected now. And this
is what they're going to planto do. I don't know. Winner. Well,
now that they got the proudboys, you know, they can get 25 people
for a grand jury. I thought,is this legal? And of course, it
did some research. It's not,but they, you know how I'm in Bundy
(31:15):
and all of them, they'reinterpreting the Constitution the
way they, you know. And then aperson like me that's not schooled
enough goes with it, believesthem, you know, and they will do
their own grand jury. They'regonna. Oh, scared me.
It seems like to me, you know,both, both the Bible and the Constitution
are probably two documentsthey haven't read, but they have
some. They have some very firmbeliefs about what both of them say.
(31:39):
I think they ought to. Theyought to take the time and sit down
and read them and. And findout what the truth is.
Yeah. But with everything theytwisted to fit.
Them, these folks have to hitrock bottom before anything is really
going to change, let's behonest. And we're not.
I know.
Rock bottom. Are we?
Well, but we can still bepushing back and letting them know
that what they're trying to dois not going to be okay. I mean,
(32:00):
it's Martin Luther King, Rosaparts. They gave us an example. Just
do the right thing, no matterwhat they're screaming about, you
know, that we're not going tolet. Stand by and let. No. Oh, no,
sorry. You know, good luck.You're going to hear from me big
time. And. But we got to getthat collective throughout the nation.
One person can't do this. Butthe right people getting out there
(32:23):
talking and, and making theCongress accountable and say, yeah,
do you want to be elected?Isn't that what you're here for?
For we the people, Right? Whoare you here for? Are you here for
Trump? Are you here for we thepeople? You got to confront them.
Confront them hard. I mean,remember the movie Mr. Smith goes
to Washington? Yeah. You know,you got to get that bad cop going
(32:48):
a little bit out there. Notbad cop, but really strong and not
afraid of it. Let him scream.Let them yell. But they're going
to, oh, I'm going to come getyou. Bam. Okay, well, come get me.
But I'm going to keep onspeaking. Come get me. What are you
going to do, kill me? Youknow, I mean, people are afraid.
I know. And they feelhopeless. And I'm hearing that. And
I heard that when Trump waselected, the suicide hotline went
(33:09):
crazy. But we could do what wecan to get the message out there.
Don't give up. Don't lose yourfaith. Come on, you guys will push
back on fascism. We are goingto win. You know, in the movie, the
bad guy looks like he'swinning all through the movie until
the end. And this will happenthis way. Trump is not going to win
if we the people will stand upand push back on him, legally and
(33:31):
peacefully, of course, always.But through the law and with the
Constitution, that's our weapon.
You remind me of Fannie LouHamer, you know, who said that if
they knocked her down, I'mgoing to fall forward and I'm going
to fall 5, 5ft, 4 inchesforward in the fight for freedom.
You remind me of that.
(33:52):
I, I guess that's a compliment.
Yeah, it certainly is. Meantone. I, you know, I really do appreciate
you giving us some of yourtime. And, and I think you give me
hope. I mean, you really aregiving me some inspiration to keep
fighting the fight that. Yeah,things aren't hopeless. We. We can.
We can get through this.
We can. Together, we can.
Well, thank you for all you'vedone and all that you're doing. You
(34:15):
said you're a real inspiration.
Oh, we. I honor both of youfor what you've been doing, too.
So you know that. Right?
Well, thank you.
Yeah. I appreciate you. Weknew more of you out there.
There's a lot of us. We justgot. We gotta all stand up together.
We. We will. They've. Theydon't realize they're underestimating
the Democrat party, I'll tellyou that. Right.
(34:35):
Well, we've got to get her. Wegot to get our act together.
But you're getting there.
We'll try. Thank you so much.
I learned. I worked for BarackObama when he ran the first time
around, and one of the thingsI learned from him was kind of hang
back for a little bit andlet's see how the other side reacts
and what they do and thenformulate a plan and then come at
(34:56):
them with both barrels. So Ithink you're right, Pamela. I think
that's. Democrats are kind ofhanging back right now, but over
time, I think they'll getstronger and the messaging will be
a little bit better, too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe that.
Okay. Well, Pamela Hemphill,thank you so much for joining us
from Idaho today. And our bestto Michael as well, who has been
(35:18):
very helpful in setting thisup, and I know you're leaning on
him. You're a delightfulperson and inspiration, and thank
you for joining Muck.
Oh, well, thank you. Any way Ican help, let me know.
This has been Muck U, hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David Wheeler
and produced by AmericanMuckrakers. More information on American
muckrakersis@americanmokrakers.com Please support
(35:41):
our work holding shittypolitics politicians accountable
every day of the week with adonation today@AmericanMokBreakers.com
donate. Oh, and guess what?Lauren Boebert still hasn't sued
us.
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