March 21, 2025 • 47 mins
We're diving deep today with the one and only Joe Trippi, a political maestro who's been in the game since the days of Ted Kennedy. Seriously, this guy's been around longer than some of us have been breathing! Joe gives us the lowdown on the wild ride from Howard Dean's infamous "Yeehaw!" moment to the current political circus that is Donald Trump. He breaks down how the Dems have dropped the ball in the messaging game, while the other side has built a killer propaganda machine that’s got everyone buzzing. Plus, we chat about new ways to get our voices heard and why we gotta stop renting our platforms and start owning our networks. Trust me, you don’t wanna miss this jam-packed convo that’s as informative as it is entertaining!
Diving headfirst into a whirlwind of political chaos, we kick things off with the legendary Joe Trippi—yeah, the guy who’s been shaping campaigns since the days of disco. From his beginnings with Ted Kennedy to his recent escapades with Tulsi Gabbard, Joe’s seen it all and isn’t shy about spilling the tea. We chat about how the political landscape has morphed from the era of Howard Dean’s passionate ‘Yeehaw!’ to the current circus we call politics, where a convicted felon can still pull a crowd. Joe lays it out: it’s not just about fundraising; it’s about building a direct line to the people and ditching the mainstream media’s middleman. He’s got some spicy insights on how the GOP has capitalized on grassroots connections while the Dems are left playing catch-up, relying too much on traditional channels. The conversation takes a turn as we dissect the shifting allegiances within minority communities and how the Democrats can reclaim their foothold. Spoiler alert: it involves being more aggressive and not letting fear dictate the messaging. Buckle up, folks, because this isn’t your average political chat!
Takeaways:
- Joe Trippi emphasizes the necessity for Democrats to create their own media networks instead of relying on mainstream platforms that are controlled by their opposition, illustrating how the right has built successful propaganda channels.
- Trippi recalls the evolution of political campaigning from the Dean campaign in 2004 to the current political landscape, noting that the lessons learned have often been misapplied by Democrats, particularly in terms of fundraising and outreach strategies.
- The conversation highlights the importance of effectively communicating through various channels, including social media and cultural events, to engage with audiences that traditional political messaging fails to reach, especially among younger demographics.
- Trippi discusses the shift in voter demographics, particularly among Hispanic and Asian communities, and stresses the need for Democrats to adapt their messaging to reconnect with these crucial voter bases.
- A key point raised by Trippi is the idea that simply rebranding the Democratic Party isn't enough; Democrats must also combat the relentless demonization tactics employed by their opponents to regain trust and support from the electorate.
- The episode underscores the need for a unified Democratic strategy that not only focuses on messaging and outreach but also on building community engagement through innovative platforms like the newly launched pro-democracy network, Sez Us.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Joe Trippi
- Ted Kennedy
- Tom Bradley
- Jerry Brown
- Walter Mondale
- Doug Jones
- Howard Dean
- Tulsi Gabbard
- Lincoln
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
All right, welcome back,folks, to muck you where we cut through
the noise and dig into the truth.
No sugar coating, no spin,just the raw, unfiltered conversations
that matter.
I'm David Wheeler and alwaysI'm joined by my co host, the one
and only Colonel Mo Davis.
Take it, Mo.
Thank you, David.
And good to be back.
Thanks everybody for tuning inand our string of interesting guests
(00:35):
continues.
Today.
We're fortunate to have Joe Trippy.
If you've been followingpolitics, you know, any length of
time, you're familiar withJoe, you've seen him on cable news.
But Joe cut his teeth inpolitics back with the Ted Kennedy
campaign back in 1980.
So for the past 45 years hasbeen a pretty continuous engagement
(00:56):
in the political process,working on campaigns for Tom Bradley
and Jerry Brown and WalterMondale and Doug Jones and Howard
Dean and Tulsi Gabbard.
I want to ask you about, andJoe's also on the board of, you know,
obviously Joe's part of theDemocratic Party from that, that
(01:17):
lineup I just read off, buthe's also on the board with the Lincoln
project and working with them.
And he also, Joe and his teamhelped with my campaign back in 2020.
So, Joe, thanks so much fortaking some time to talk with us
today.
Of course.
Well, good to be with you.
And David, great to see you again.
Oh, thanks.
Let me start with, you know,you were Howard Dean's national campaign
(01:39):
manager back in 2004 when, youknow, he yelled, yeehaw, suddenly
he's not fit to be president.
And we've gone from that to aconvicted felon and a notorious deviant.
How did we get there in 21 years?
How did we get from, from,from Howard Dean to Donald Trump?
Well, look, I've said this before.
(02:00):
I think the, that there's,there's two things that, well, Democrats
learned from the Dean campaign.
Only really one thing, thatyou could raise a lot of money through
email.
That's what they, that's whatthey took from it.
And Republicans back then,George W.
Bush didn't need money.
(02:21):
They, they never really had.
I mean, they, because they'vegot the billionaires and the millionaires
and the big check writers.
So they weren't as interestedin low dollar fundraising.
What they learned was, hey,you could build networks where you
build a direct connection withyour followers and you could just
sort of over time circumventmainstream media, circumvent any
(02:46):
kind of truth.
And, and what they did wasthey, they sort of took that, that
lesson and then, and thenturned it into these propaganda networks
that they've built with thatdirect connective activity that they
learned from, that they firstsaw I think in the Dean campaign
in, in 2004.
That kind of gets to wherewe're at, right?
(03:06):
Because in a lot of ways whilethey were building Breitbart and
Fox and Elon Musk was buying Xand again, basically taking the power
of these networks that werenever built, the pro democracy side
or the Democratic side,whatever you want to, never built
(03:28):
any of those.
They don't exist.
Relying on mainstream media tofight propaganda is not going to
work.
And so then you have Trumpcome along and now they've got these
full scale propaganda networksand man, he is going to pump poison
in there.
Like there's no, no to moral rate.
You know, get people, youknow, basically use fear at every
(03:53):
turn within those networks.
And frankly, Democrats weren'tin a lot of them.
I mean, think about the WorldWrestling Entertainment, the Ultimate
Fighting, ufc, UltimateFighting Championship Rodeos.
These are all communitieswhere people were paying attention
not to politics, but to, youknow, to wrestling or, or cage fighting
(04:15):
or you know, whatever, youknow, and, and of course Democrats
wouldn't even think to gothere, let alone communicate in those
networks.
And so, but, but Trump, Trump,you know, he would go to UFC fights.
I mean he, he just knew thateither the new game is to create
attention, that any attentionis good because if you get it, it
(04:38):
keeps attention from anybody else.
And two, that so many peopleare not paying attention that you
have to be where they arepaying attention to some NASCAR or
something else.
And so he went to all the plaand the Trump campaign was communicating
in all the places where peoplewere paying attention to something
else other than politics.
(04:59):
We never communicated there.
I mean, weakness.
And then two took advantage ofthe, of the, of the networks that
they had built and was able.
It's like when he goes onTruth Social and he makes a statement
on truth Social.
Every reporter in mainstreammedia has to have a truth Social
(05:23):
account.
Why?
Because they don't want to getbeat by the other reporters that
are on it.
So he basically creates thisattention magnet.
We don't do that.
You know, I, I think theclosest moment may have been when
Joe Biden posted that he waswithdrawing from the, you know, that
he was not going to run againon X.
(05:46):
That's the, you know, it waslike the one time thing and even
then it was so rare that wedid it that no one knew whether it
was true or not because like,you know, maybe is, maybe he had
been hacked.
So I, I think in a lot of waysthat the, the, they learned some
real important lessons that,that I've been kind of screaming
(06:06):
about, you know, with, to, toour side of, you know, that we've
got to, we, we, they own, we rent.
They own X, they own Fox, theyown Sinclair Broadcasting.
Sinclair Broadcasting takesthe profits and buys another local
station that'll do.
(06:26):
Continue the propaganda intheir news every night at 6:00.
And then you have the chairmanof Sinclair Broadcasting buying the
Baltimore sun.
So they, they, they use allthat to, and they buy more and more
media and more and morepropaganda outlets and then what
do we do?
We rent.
We rent.
We buy ads on Fox, buy ads onthe local Sinclair station, buy ads
(06:49):
on X, on Facebook, on all of it.
Make them, make them moremoney so they can buy more network
and own more of the, theinformation flow and the propaganda
flow that they have.
So you know, my thing is we'vegot to start owning, stop renting.
We've got to create our own networks.
(07:09):
That's what I'm doing with anew social network, pro democracy
social network called says us,where we're now in app stores, both
Google and Apple.
So I hope people will go checkthat out.
But that's just one thing wegot to do.
Many, many.
Your, your podcast.
I mean that's, we've got toreally start flooding the zone with
our own, our own efforts andstop renting on theirs.
(07:34):
Yeah, well, you know,depending on the polling you look
at, Democrats have a, either a27 or 29% favorability rating with
the American public.
So we've clearly done ahorrible job of communicating.
And as you just described,it's gotten inordinately harder.
I mean they control social media.
They've beaten the mainstreammedia into submission.
(07:54):
So how do we punch throughthat bubble to, to get our message
out there?
Well, that's my point actually.
Look, I think their networkshave become so pervasive that it,
you know, all this talk about,hey, we have to re, rebrand the Democratic
Party or we have to, you know,become more left, more right, whatever,
(08:17):
more centrist.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter because theywill so demonize whoever the candidate
is or whatever the flavor thatwe end up over the next couple of
years creating that by thetime we launch that candidacy with
that new message, they'll,they'll have been, you know, like
(08:37):
you saw them do to HillaryClinton what they did with Biden.
Even though the, you know, thejobs numbers were going up, they
convinced everybody that therewere no, there were no jobs and that
the economy was, was, was garbage.
Certainly the economy needed,you know, needed to improve and all
that, but not to the extentthat they had convinced everybody.
(08:59):
And that's with the, by theway, with the mainstream media every
week or every jobs reportsaying great jobs report but, but
their insidious networks,propaganda networks were so, and
that's where people aregetting their messaging now.
Their, their information.
They're not getting itwatching David Muir on abc.
I mean a few million are, butmost of them are getting it from
(09:23):
social networks so that they,they run.
So yes.
Do we have to look at ourmessaging and our, and, and we have
I think a, A, a lot of youngaggressive potential candidates for
the future.
And so I, I think the, thecandidates piece will take care of
(09:45):
itself.
I mean we can all get intowhether that's, which one is your
favorite right now.
But, and they're certainlygoing to have a big debate debate
and someone will emerge andlead the party.
I'm not concerned about thatas much as what we all need to do
to build I think things likepodcast networks, things like a pro
(10:10):
democracy social network likewe're trying to build.
It says us, it's sez us by theway, just in case anybody listeners
want to want to check it out.
But my point is, you know,things like the Lincoln Project,
we just launched LincolnSquare, which is a media platform
(10:32):
substack again to startbuilding that muscle that, that,
that messaging muscle.
Because unless we do, therewill not be a way to deliver the
message in today's, you know,in today's media environment.
I, my point would be, youknow, like says us, we have 10,000
people that joined becausebasically we kept it there on purpose
(10:56):
to get the bugs out of it andthat kind of thing.
You know, it's now somethingthat, okay, people go, well geez,
why would I post on a socialnetwork that only has 10,000 people
on it?
Well, it's the pro democracysocial network.
None of the other ones aregoing to do that.
And so yeah, can we get it to100,000 in a couple of weeks, a month?
(11:18):
Can we get it to a couple million?
If we all start, you know,building it, can we get it to 50
million by, by you know, 2026?
And the thing that peopledon't realize, 3, 310 of a percent
of all social network accountsare toxic.
Only 310 of a percent.
(11:39):
Those 310 of a percent deliver80% of the fake news and disinformation
on this on all social networks.
So you have 80% of the liesbeing amplified and created and centered
around by 310 of the percentof people on social.
How do you.
(11:59):
Let's kill the three, let'sget the three 10 off ours.
Let's.
And let's try to startinviting more and more Americans
into a civil, pro democracysocial network that we built and
we own.
So that's, I mean, that's sortof my, my case for why we, for why
you're.
The things you're doing, thethings that we're doing at the Lincoln
(12:22):
Project at Lincoln Square andit says us are some of the most important
things that, that people can do.
They listen to this, maybethey'll join the social network too,
you know, and then on thesocial network, hopefully you guys
will start posting there.
I know.
I think David has been or willbe and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll
(12:43):
build it, you know.
Yeah, been posting quite a bit actually.
I love it.
Sczus us.
Yep.
Hey, Joe, we had, we had DavidJolly on not too long.
I think it was David Jolly.
David, correct me if I'mwrong, but we were talking about
how, you know, on theRepublican side, you know, on the
Democratic side we want to runon our policies, you know, here's
(13:03):
what we want to do to makelife better.
And on the Republican side,it's it.
Their campaigns are centeredaround demonizing their opponent.
It's not so much policy, it'spainting the other, the opposition
candidate as a, you know,child molesting pervert, and it is
working for them.
How do we get our side to bemore aggressive and fight harder,
(13:26):
you know, in the, in the trenches?
If we don't win the election,the policies don't matter.
Yeah, I think, look, the, thelesson in all this is that they,
is what you said, thedemonization is what, is what matters.
Right.
So that, like I caution peopleto not pay too much attention to
(13:47):
Trump's low economic approval rating.
I mean, it's, you know, it'snow, you know, I think the lowest
it's ever been for just aboutanybody at this point in the presidency.
It's not, no one's.
So they're testing.
Where do you think, you know,what do you think of his handling
the economy?
Well, that's not being testedagainst the candidate that's running
(14:09):
against him is a, is a commie,trans loving pedophile, in other
words.
So what I'm saying is, yeah,everybody gets, oh, look, he's, his,
his approval's falling.
Yeah, well, that onlyincreases the the vitriol and the
demonization that's going tooccur again to anybody who, who we
(14:33):
stand up and again they havebetter delivery and networks, et
cetera.
So we go to the same problem.
I think the other thingthough, you're right MO is you know,
well, a couple of things.
It turns out knocking on doorsevery two years in October is not
going to stop.
It's not, it does not balancefour years of demonization.
(15:00):
You're not going to undo thatevery two years at the doors.
Although the doors are important.
Important.
That's what it's, it's one ofthese things where we, and yeah,
build that wall, Mexico willpay for it is something that's quick
and easy and everybody get.
And then of course ourresponse isn't a simple response
(15:21):
that everybody, you know, easyto understand.
Very short.
It's the explanation, the reason.
The, the, the, the, the data,the, the charts that show that immigration
is actually not as bad asthey, you know, I mean it's all this
explanation stuff.
And I look, we're in a worldforget about our own networks.
You know, we're now down tothe evening news.
(15:44):
The average sound bite is nine seconds.
Nine seconds.
That's look at X where youhave to, you know, whatever 250 characters,
blue sky, 300something characters.
There's not a whole lot ofnuance or explanation that you can
get through um, in that shortattention span by the way.
(16:06):
And, and we as Americans haveeven shorter and shorter and shorter
attention span as we're doomscrolling and all those other things.
So yes, we have to learn todeliver our message.
Short, tough again.
Remember what I said earlier,it's about getting attention.
We have to get people's attention.
(16:26):
We have to do things or saythings that get.
That's what Trump does.
But that's the world also thatwe're in that he gets and we don't.
I talking about a lot of ourcandidates and a lot of our, our
committee, you know,committees, campaign committees out
there.
And, and so, you know, likeone of the ideas that I think it
(16:47):
was Ian Brenner at a, atProtect Democracy had, you know,
just in terms of explainingthis attention thing, if the party
announced tomorrow, theDemocratic Party announced tomorrow
that it was holding aconvention in November to nominate
its presidential candidate for 2028.
This, no, 2025 we are holding,we, you know, candidates can travel
(17:11):
the country, explain whythey're, why we should vote for them,
why they would take on Trumpand, and this authoritarian, authoritarian
regime.
And, and we will announce our,we'll hold a convention and announce
our nominee in 2025.
(17:31):
And for three years thatperson will be the opposition leader
leading us into the 2020, youknow, etc.
What I'm saying, I'm notsaying that's the idea we should
do, but what I am saying isit's clear, it's easy for you and
me and David and our listenersto understand how much attention
(17:53):
that fight for among, youknow, whether it's Newsom, Web, Westmore,
Whitmer, you know, Doug Jones,whoever, all these people running
the attention that that wouldbring to our, to what we're projecting
to what into any change inmessage that we were projecting.
(18:16):
And then that nominee beingthe nominee in 2025 and taking it
to Trump and, and possiblynaming their cabinet immediately
in November of 2025.
So that becomes the shadowcabinet taking on everybody else.
What I'm talking about hereisn't that that's the idea that that
attention is something that wehave to figure out because even the
(18:41):
best ideas, if we don't, if wecan't grab people's attention and
I think so we have to createmechanisms to do that.
They do that all the time andalso start communicating where people
are paying attention andthat's places that, you know, NASCAR,
WWE, UFC, etc.
(19:01):
Etc.
We've got to figure ways to dothat while we create, while we create
our own network to, todistribute our ideas out there.
The way Elon can amplify on Xall the, all the bad ideas and, and
the division in anger thatthat's fomenting and, and tearing
at the fabric that of trustand community that that democracy
(19:25):
depends on.
So Joe, I grew up in Iowa andWarren county around Tom Harkin and
Phil Davitt, John Culver andother good Democrats.
Let's hearken back to the olddays if you don't mind.
What's one of your favoritesMondale days or the Dean days when
you were running those campaigns?
Give us, give us a littlecolor on what it was like to be.
(19:45):
With look, back then, Iowa waslike a place where I would have told
you if we only, if you couldonly, only one state would decide
who the nominees or who thepresident would be.
I would have said Iowa.
It was, it was just an amazing host.
You know, a host place wherethey would listen to everybody and,
(20:11):
and weren't playing politicsand like would, would.
Would I, I think always pickthe right person, you know, even
if it wasn't my guy, you know,but so, you know, I think that that
the, you know The Deancampaign was.
Was there was a change thatstarted happening that, that, that
(20:34):
year in 2004, up until 2004, Iwould have said what I just said
then.
In 2004, I think a lot of, inmy view, a lot of dirty tricks got
played.
Um, and I mean, for instance,in the Dean campaign on the.
This.
I think it was the Saturdaybefore the election, before the caucuses,
(20:54):
if you.
Every single Dean supporterwas called like 16 times and it was
like, hey, this is, this isthe Dean campaign.
Just wanted to make sureyou're going to vote on, you know,
go to the caucus.
Fifteen minutes later, hey,David, this is the Dean campaign.
Just want to make sure youwant to go to the caucus.
By the time we made the onecall to remind them to go to the
(21:15):
Dean can go for us, we were literally.
Our own supporters werescreaming at us, if you, I'm not
voting for you.
I'm not going.
Don't call me ever again.
Which I think had a lot to dowith why we went from first to third.
But that's the, That's.
We were already.
That had already happenedbefore the scream happened.
But.
(21:35):
And look, I don't know whichcampaign did it, but you know how
Iowa works, David.
You.
Every campaign goes in, callsthrough the entire state, identifies
the Kerry voters, the Deanvoters, the gap part voters, or whoever's,
you know, Obama and Hillaryand Edwards.
And then you go to work on theundecided as well.
They had.
Somebody had a nice file ofwhen they had recorded people who
(21:58):
said they were for Dean andthey did everything they could to.
To mess with those people.
And that's where I think youstarted to see the turn in my view
of where it.
It, you know, where the partylater on starts to decide, which
I think was a huge mistake towalk away from Iowa being first.
(22:19):
I just, I.
I was so against that becauseI still would trust the people of
Iowa before I.
Even in this polarized, crazytime we're in, before I turn it over
to any other state.
Obviously you don't ever wantone state to decide, but that's how
much I believe in.
In the people of Iowa still.
(22:39):
I was just back there.
I was Frankel.
The.
The was running for the Senateand I was out there with Doug Jones,
campaigning for him with himand for him.
And I still felt that, I mean,he lost, but I still felt that, that,
that, you know, it's a fair.
(22:59):
You get a fair shake.
There is, I guess, the, thebest, you know, but I do think the
innocence of the place interms of how polit conducted changed
somewhere not obviously wasn'tGore Bradley.
It was, it was started, in myview to turn in 2020, in 2004.
Yeah, it was probably relatedto money too.
(23:20):
Remember, that was when moneystarted to come into politics.
I mean, I grew up when, youknow, when you're in politics, the
only people that made moneywas the radio and the TV stations
and yeah, maybe the newspaper.
And now, I mean, look at theconsultant class that I say very
disparagingly, the amount ofmoney these feet people.
What, what are your thoughtson consultants and taking on races
(23:43):
they know are going to losejust for the fees.
What are your thoughts?
No, look, I think theconsultant class is, is largely responsible
for what, what happened in 2024.
And I mean, it's, it's again,like who you're running a presidential
campaign or you're the mediaconsultant for a presidential campaign
that's got like $600 millionin the bank or whatever it is.
(24:06):
Who's going to tell them toget out?
I don't mean that in a, youknow, I mean, there's lots of other
reasons.
You don't tell somebody thatyou like a lot and they've been working
for it for years not to, notto do something.
But I'm just saying it's likeI did the, the fascinating thing
so in, when Jerry Brown ranfor governor in the, you know, the
second comeback for governoragainst Meg Whitman.
(24:30):
So meg Whitman spent $187million against Jerry Brown.
Jerry Brown raised $37 million.
So she's spending $187 million.
She has a 14 point lead.
14 points on Labor Day becauseshe spent $100 million.
While I had to beg Jerry tolike, not spend any money.
(24:51):
We're not going to do anythingbecause then we'll get to a place
on Labor Day where she's got87 million and we've got 37 million.
It won't, won't be a fairfight, but that's a lot better than
187 to 37.
So we waited.
She built up a 14 point lead.
We beat her by 14 points, 28point swing, while she still had
87 million and we had 37 million.
(25:13):
Now, let me get you the punchline.
The punchline was I did thatrace for a flat $300,000, which is
nothing.
Right.
The consultants who worked forMeg Whitman.
Oh, my God, 5%, 10% of that.
10%.
Yeah, whatever.
You're talking about.
18 million.
You know, I don't, we don'tknow but just making it, you know,
(25:35):
you know, relatively fair.
Guess I think there was somereport that it was like 20 something
million after the.
They checked the FEC reports.
That's not my, My point isn't.
Isn't whether it was 10million or 20 million.
It's that.
No, it's totally because ofthe vast amounts of money swimming
around out there.
(25:55):
The, the kind of mercenary formoney thing in the consulting class
on both sides has I, I think,done a lot of damage.
I agree.
And it, and it's eroded donor confidence.
Yeah.
Because who.
You.
You get snookered into giving,you know, raising.
Yeah.
$16 million into the MarjorieTaylor Greene race in Georgia.
(26:19):
Right.
Yeah.
We lose by 35 points.
Yeah.
Not only in 18, but 20 and 22.
And the guys are walking away.
And here's the other thingthat's really irritating that people
probably don't know thosemailing lists become property of
that candidate.
They sell them off.
Oh, yeah.
They're off selling them.
So, you know, you gotcandidates and consultants that are
making money off of lists that.
(26:40):
From that race they knew wasgoing to lose from the start.
And listen, I, I'm all forentrepreneurs making money.
If you win.
Hell yeah.
I mean, pay.
Would you pay $20 million towin the California governor's race?
Yes, that'd be.
Jerry would not.
Jerry wouldn't.
Well, Jerry wouldn't.
But, you know, if you but hadsomebody and they won, that would
have been terrific.
But no, but it's also.
(27:02):
How much do you need?
It's like, you know, at somelevel, like, you know, hit Whitman
said, I'll pay you 3 millionto do my race.
They're paying trippy 300,000.
I mean, like, okay, you know,you know what I'm saying?
But that just doesn't happen.
A lot of it is like you said,because it's at the front door.
Right.
How much is Meg Whitmanwilling to pay to be the U.S.
(27:25):
the governor of California?
Well, she raised, she wrote$187 million check.
Therefore, why wouldn't shewrite a $20 million check to the,
to the, quote, consultant whois telling her she could win?
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, that's the other thing.
You go in, no one's going into see these people and saying, like,
there's no chance for you to win.
(27:46):
That's happened once in my career.
Seth Moulton against Tierneyin Massachusetts.
He was behind in the firstpoll by like 59 point.
And Mark Melman was the pollster.
And God bless Mark.
Mark Melman, who I, I believehis Numbers and would, you know,
trust in the trench at anytime, go into the battle with him.
(28:08):
But he told, he started the,the call saying, seth, this was going
to be a poll briefing, but wehave to talk about how we get you
out of the race with some dignity.
And what, what happened waspretty amazing though.
And this is another thing thatdoesn't happen.
You very rarely now run intomany candidates that will tell, that
will, you know, do somethingthe poll says you should or shouldn't
(28:30):
do.
You know, the poll says, saythis, there's, you know, a lot of
candidates just go, oh, okay,sure, that's what I'll say.
Seth turned to Mark and justsaid, I don't care.
I'm a Marine, damn it.
I've had bullets flying overmy head.
I don't, you know, I don'tneed to get out of anything with
dignity.
There's nothing they can do to me.
I'm running.
(28:51):
And so we, and Mark and puthis ore in the water and we all put
our or in the water and guesswhat happened?
A guy who actually believed inwhat he was saying and believed in
what he was fighting for wonthat election.
It was like the huge upset.
So.
But that's a rare thing now.
That's really rare.
And the candidate went in,Candidate went in.
(29:11):
Eyes wide open though too,because you guys were honest with
him up front.
Yeah, yeah, but that's whatI'm saying.
That's, that doesn't, that's.
I've never, I can't recallbeing in another meeting where a
consultant said, no, you know,keep your check, don't.
We should end this now.
Don't spend the money you've raised.
Get out of the race.
It doesn't, that doesn'thappen anymore.
(29:33):
And like I said, the one timethat happened, the candidate told
us to go to hell.
Right, right, right, right, right.
And then one.
So yeah, it's a.
So no, that.
But those are the kinds ofthings that you see, you know, coming
up from 79.
It started in 79.
Both the shift in the way themedia fragmented at every level.
(30:00):
I mean, look, I was there in,in 92, Joe Costello and I, because
we were still frustrated withTV being a one way thing, you know,
where you could yap at peoplebut they couldn't interact.
Decided to.
We talked Jerry Brown intousing an 800 number when he, whenever
he was talking to the press or talking.
(30:23):
And so in the middle of theNBC debate, He's holding this 800
number up and urging people tocall the 800 number and then we had
put it in our ads.
We raised $8 million and then$8 million that way in 92.
And then the Internet came along.
So I've been sort of part of this.
How do you build these networks?
How do you get people engaged?
(30:43):
Even when all we had was aphone and a T, you know, a TV screen,
we were still.
I was still trying to figurethat out.
Now I've watched what they'vebeen able to do.
I'll tell you this.
This is the one Howard Dean had.
Blog for America.
We.
We started Blog, we launchedthe blog.
About 650,000 peop.
(31:03):
Americans were on that blog.
And every morning Howard wouldcome on, post something, and then
like, you know, they.
People who are following us would.
Would say, howard, you know,that's great.
And somebody else would saysomething by noon.
I'd come on and say, David,that's a great idea.
You just posted.
Howard's going to say ittonight in the.
(31:25):
In his speech.
And then Howard would do it inthe speech one day.
No one's ever done that.
No one in our party.
And no Republican has everdone that until in 2016, I wake up
and there's this guy, DonaldTrump, on Twitter, and he's posting
in the morning and everybody,17 million people are following him
(31:50):
on Twitter at the time and atnoon, Pascal on the.
His guy on social and runningIT posts, hey, Frank, that's a great
idea.
And tonight Donald's going touse it in his speech.
And I'm sitting there saying, crap.
The only guy who ever.
Who got this, I mean, who got that.
(32:10):
You could build that kind ofconnection in all of politics.
From 2004, from the HowardDean Blog for America.
Twitter was Donald Trump'sblog for America.
And that should scare theliving daylights out of it.
Should convince people we gotto build our own network like we
did with Blog for America.
(32:31):
Because all the rest are ownedby Zuckerberg or Elon or soon to
be owned by a vc.
You know, who's moreinterested in the.
The Whatever needs to.
Whatever anger divisioncreates more eyeballs and more hysteria.
That creates more.
More energy.
(32:52):
That's what they're gonna.
That's what they're gonna.
That's what's destroying.
That's literally what'sdestroying our democracy right now.
Yeah, yeah.
His capacity to use it.
And, and a little bit I knowabout parscale.
I assume he went back andstudied your campaign and stole that
idea.
Oh, yeah.
No, no, well, I, Well, I.
No, no, unfortunately, I cantell you, like in 2007, I sat down
(33:15):
with, with Axelrod, you know,early maybe 2006, and I said to him,
hey Ax, you know, if, if youguys do this right, you can raise
a half a billion dollars onthe Internet.
And Ax just turned to me witha little smirk on his face and said,
yeah, you know, I read that ina book somewhere.
(33:35):
So yeah, probably the biggest.
And so yeah, like, you know,we, I, I, I'm sure that those guys
all, you know, look, they,they went to school on what was working.
I'm sure they went to schoolon the, on the Obama campaign.
You know, they went to schoolon what we were doing, what worked
and they perfected it whilethe rest of the, you know, while
(33:59):
the, like I said, I think theonly lesson that pervaded from Dean
to Obama, and then of course,because Obama raised did raise a
half a billion dollars from 3million people.
That's what, that's what kindof like took, you know, took the
focus of every other campaignout there.
I mean, in, you know,including Mo.
(34:20):
Hey, how much money can weraise in my campaign on the Internet?
You know, I mean, I'm notcondemning anybody for that.
I'm just saying that's whatour success in that actually I think
blinded us to, to probably the most.
The more important lesson outof that campaign didn't blind me,
(34:42):
but it was hard convincingothers other campaigns to Mo was,
Mo's into building the community.
But I'm just saying that's notthe focus of most staffs out there
and definitely not the focusof consultants.
They, they want to, they wantto hire the best like who could raise
us $30 million on theInternet, right?
So I think that overwhelmedour side while their side again,
(35:07):
you know, you got Elon Musk,you got all these billionaires, you
had, you know, all themillionaires with H.W.
bush and George Bush and W.
I mean they're, they're, theyweren't as interested in that.
Now the, the, the, the counterthing that I'm sure has happened
is if you build that kind ofnetwork, the low dollar money comes
(35:28):
in.
So because they concentratedon building those networks, Breitbart
x truth, social, etc.
Guess what?
Guess what's happened, right?
They, they, they're nowswamping us with low dollar money
as well.
On top of whatever the bill,you know, elon writing a 45 million
dollar check a week orwhatever the hell he was doing during
(35:51):
that thing.
Hey Joe, I don't know if yousaw Ezra Klein had a piece this week.
It was an Interview with David Shore.
Right.
Which I found really interesting.
The, you know, stats showedthat between 2016 and 2024 there
wasn't a huge shift amongwhite voters or black voters, but
the big shift was in Hispanicand Asian votes where there was a
(36:13):
large move to the right.
And it also pointed out that10% of the electorate are immigrants
and Biden carried that, thatgroup BY I think 23 or 24 points.
But four years later, Trumpwins it by a point or two.
We're losing, seems like we'relosing the bubble in minority communities.
And how do we, how do we tapback into them?
(36:34):
Well, I mean I think we're, Ithink, excuse me, I think both things
are true, right, that we, wehave to do a better job of, of, of
communicating with blue collarworking whites and, and people, you
know, regardless.
I mean we, I just think we'velost a lot of that, our support among
less educated whatever, youknow, and, and, and middle income
(36:58):
or lower working folks.
So I think that's, that.
I don't know what, what Shoreshowed about that, but I think that's
clear a problem.
I also, you know, StuartStevens was saying from the very
beginning that Trump'scoalition is really fragile and the
reason it's fragile is becauseof what you just talked about that
(37:19):
he had done so well withHispanics and Latinos and is now
going to try to mass deportseveral million of them.
That's not going to go overwell even with a lot of the legal,
you know, folks that are herein terms of, it's not going to go
over just the, just the imagesof it are going to heard is favorable.
(37:40):
That has happened already.
I mean he's already, you know,dropped big time with, with both
Asians and, and Hispanics.
So that part of the co.
And the problem is if hedoesn't deport, deport millions of
them, then his, the whitenationalist maga, you know, racial
(38:01):
racist group.
He, he, yeah.
Oh, you bullshitting us.
So he's kind and that's justone area.
But there's, you see it withElon Musk and HB1 visas, you know,
pushing up against the mega.
No, you got to keep them all out.
Why are you letting the richones in?
You know, all that stuff thatcreates the, the dissonance.
(38:24):
It exists and, and I thinkthe, by the way, we have to count
on a bunch of things, right?
We have to count on, we getour act together on messaging, we
build better vehicles tomessage better networks, our own
networks.
We own them.
We don't Rent and we have tohave them overreach and, and, and
(38:49):
make mistakes and beincompetent at what they're doing.
I mean, in other words, weneed them to fail.
They're doing a pretty goodjob of that or at least dividing
self, kind of have somewarfare between themselves and the
different divisions that's happening.
But we need that to happen.
It won't just be, it's notgoing to be enough for us to come
up with a better messenger andeven to start building those networks.
(39:12):
They, they've got, I thinkevery day they prove that they shouldn't
be in government, that they'retrying to destroy government and
they're impacting enoughpeople that he's probably already
in trouble and the other introuble in terms of his, his support.
But the other thing we got toremember is there's always been a
(39:32):
big difference between whenhe's on the ballot and when he's
not on the ballot.
So one, he won't be on theballot in 2026.
Every one of those midtermswhere he hasn't been on the ballot,
we've, we've been able to makethe, the gains that we needed to
make.
Our, our problems have been,you know, like 2024, when he's on
the ballot, they, you know,they can hold it, take everything.
(39:55):
So one 2026, the house isgoing to be one thing, David, getting
into your, like, whatcandidates to support and all that
stuff.
Look, folks, there'll be somesenators that are going to need help.
We had to.
But there, there are likemaybe 10 House seats, maybe 12 that
are going to matter.
And that's where if you'regoing to help, if you're going to
(40:15):
write postcards, if you'regoing to send money, be, you know,
those are the places that you,you've got to be there.
There certainly will be somefights in the Senate, and I'm not
arguing about not supporting aSenate candidate by any means.
We need to win them all.
But we've got to take theHouse back.
If we don't, if we take thehouse back in 2026, that's going
(40:37):
to put more sand in the gears,slow him up.
Where there'll be, you know,they won't be able to get their agenda
through without, without, youknow, the House signing on.
Right now they got all three.
I don't, you know, we might beable to gain something in the Senate.
Doesn't look likely given themaps, but the House is the place
where we have to focus.
(40:57):
I think I'm Just curious.
Speaking of the House, youhelp get Tulsi Gabbard elected to
the, the hell happened to her?
You know, she, when, when weworked for her back then, the first,
her first race for the, forthe House is when she was elected.
Man, she was a rising star inthe party.
(41:17):
I mean, a big rising star.
I think everybody agreed on that.
And, and then she didn't run.
I think maybe she ran forreelection one time, but she left
the House pretty, prettyquickly after that.
And I, and I, you know, Iremained, you know, email once in
(41:37):
a while, but I didn't see itcoming at all.
I mean, I cannot tell you.
I wish I could tell you whathappened or, or why she's, you know,
became so enamored with Trumpand, and the hard right.
Because I saw no signs of itat all.
None.
And even like the attacks onher religious beliefs and things
(42:00):
like that, I mean there werethose, some of those were occurred
in that campaign.
But back then, I mean, Ibasically, and I still believe this,
we're a country where, youknow, you know, I thought we got
over that with jfk.
I mean, the way I thoughtabout it was, I thought we got over
that with JFK and you know,you know, was he going to listen
(42:21):
to the Pope, you know, thatyour religious beliefs don't have
anything to do with, you know,it's not a.
As long as you're like he didsaying, hey, I'm, I'm.
You're.
I represent you.
Not, not, not my church.
And she was like that.
And I still think she is.
So I don't know.
(42:41):
I cannot tell you what I saw.
No signs at all.
It's unfortunate.
She seems to have gone off thedeep end and I agree with you, she
was a rising star.
She had one of the keynote addresses.
Dnc, the only thing, I mean,that's what I'm saying.
I don't know, like, because Ialso don't know if something behind
the scenes where she, youknow, like she realized she wasn't
(43:01):
going to be, you know, berising the party or something.
I don't.
But I never got any, anythinglike that.
I thought, wow, like SethMoulton, like Ro Khanna, I've helped
elect another, you know,rising star in the party and then,
you know, again, you can look.
That's the spectrum, right?
I mean like you, you, you,you, you.
(43:23):
I, I've always tried hard to,to be more in tune with what's going
on in the district and whatwas going on nationally.
Like does, you know, how doyou Elect somebody in Hawaii.
Well, you know, Hawaii got Hindus.
It's got all kinds of, youknow, different religions.
And so I never.
So that was, you know, andthen, you know, Rokhana in Silicon
(43:45):
Valley, Seth Mollie, you know,in Massachusetts, and there's several
other members of Congress.
And, you know, Ron Wyden up in Oregon.
I did his race with thePackwood Special.
In fact, Doug Jones and Ron Wyden.
Ron Wyden won my first specialSenate election.
(44:05):
And the last one, you know,years later, was Doug Jones.
I've won two of those.
They don't come up very often,but, you know, Doug Jones is very
different than Ron Wyden.
And you had to run a race thatwould win in Alabama.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Again, I just.
All I can say is, gosh, he wasa rising star and.
(44:28):
And then became a rising star in.
In Trump land.
And I just.
Trump.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Makes you wonder.
Yeah, Makes you wonder.
I wonder how many other peopleare going to bounce over there.
Who knows, someday.
But, you know, you've donethis with such integrity over the
years, though, Joe.
I commend you for that.
You've never been in theheadlines for bullshit or for ratting
out a client of yours orstealing their money, and I really
(44:52):
respect that of you and you.
But you've also, you know, wonsome really terrific races.
And so I want to thank youfor, for joining Mo and myself today.
It's been a terrific conversation.
You're a man of your word and,and a man that gets shit done, and
that's very valuable these days.
Do you mind if I plug my.
My own podcast?
(45:12):
Absolutely, yes, please.
It's that trippy show, so ifyou thought this was interesting
and you want to hear more,I'll probably have David over on
it.
Okay, cool.
We'll do some cross promotion.
But if you.
You get a chance, check outthat trippy show wherever you find
your favorite podcast.
Terrific.
Well, and.
(45:32):
And I also, I am a user overat Sezsez Us and I encourage folks
to go over there, check it out again.
Joe's a man of his word and integrity.
He wouldn't ask us to go thereif a piece of Jun.
And I've been posting therethe last couple weeks and getting
lots of good response and it'seasy to use.
So I encourage folks to goover there and help Joe out.
(45:54):
And you can get it in your appstores for your iPhone or your Android
by going to your apps, Googleor Apple Store as well.
So thanks.
Thanks a lot.
David well that's a wrap forthis episode of mucu where we cut
through the crap and call itlike it is.
If you like what you heard,subscribe, share and spread the word,
please go, says Sec us and setup your account show.
(46:14):
I'll catch you next time withmore facts and a whole lot less bullshit.
All then, on behalf of Mo andmyself, Muck you.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville,
North Carolina and DavidWheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina.
Thanks to our guest today, JoeTrippy, co founder of SEZ us, the
host of that Trippy show andan advisor to the Lincoln Project.
(46:38):
Muck U is produced by American Muckrakers.
Copyright 2025.
You can learn more and donateat americanmuckrakers.
Com.
Follow us on xsezes Us andBlue sky under American Muck.
Come back soon for a new episode.
All right, welcome back,folks, to muck you where we cut through
the noise and dig into the truth.
No sugar coating, no spin,just the raw, unfiltered conversations
that matter.
I'm David Wheeler and alwaysI'm joined by my co host, the one
and only Colonel Mo Davis.
Take it, Mo.
Thank you, David.
And good to be back.
Thanks everybody for tuning inand our string of interesting guests
(00:35):
continues.
Today.
We're fortunate to have Joe Trippy.
If you've been followingpolitics, you know, any length of
time, you're familiar withJoe, you've seen him on cable news.
But Joe cut his teeth inpolitics back with the Ted Kennedy
campaign back in 1980.
So for the past 45 years hasbeen a pretty continuous engagement
(00:56):
in the political process,working on campaigns for Tom Bradley
and Jerry Brown and WalterMondale and Doug Jones and Howard
Dean and Tulsi Gabbard.
I want to ask you about, andJoe's also on the board of, you know,
obviously Joe's part of theDemocratic Party from that, that
(01:17):
lineup I just read off, buthe's also on the board with the Lincoln
project and working with them.
And he also, Joe and his teamhelped with my campaign back in 2020.
So, Joe, thanks so much fortaking some time to talk with us
today.
Of course.
Well, good to be with you.
And David, great to see you again.
Oh, thanks.
Let me start with, you know,you were Howard Dean's national campaign
(01:39):
manager back in 2004 when, youknow, he yelled, yeehaw, suddenly
he's not fit to be president.
And we've gone from that to aconvicted felon and a notorious deviant.
How did we get there in 21 years?
How did we get from, from,from Howard Dean to Donald Trump?
Well, look, I've said this before.
(02:00):
I think the, that there's,there's two things that, well, Democrats
learned from the Dean campaign.
Only really one thing, thatyou could raise a lot of money through
email.
That's what they, that's whatthey took from it.
And Republicans back then,George W.
Bush didn't need money.
(02:21):
They, they never really had.
I mean, they, because they'vegot the billionaires and the millionaires
and the big check writers.
So they weren't as interestedin low dollar fundraising.
What they learned was, hey,you could build networks where you
build a direct connection withyour followers and you could just
sort of over time circumventmainstream media, circumvent any
(02:46):
kind of truth.
And, and what they did wasthey, they sort of took that, that
lesson and then, and thenturned it into these propaganda networks
that they've built with thatdirect connective activity that they
learned from, that they firstsaw I think in the Dean campaign
in, in 2004.
That kind of gets to wherewe're at, right?
(03:06):
Because in a lot of ways whilethey were building Breitbart and
Fox and Elon Musk was buying Xand again, basically taking the power
of these networks that werenever built, the pro democracy side
or the Democratic side,whatever you want to, never built
(03:28):
any of those.
They don't exist.
Relying on mainstream media tofight propaganda is not going to
work.
And so then you have Trumpcome along and now they've got these
full scale propaganda networksand man, he is going to pump poison
in there.
Like there's no, no to moral rate.
You know, get people, youknow, basically use fear at every
(03:53):
turn within those networks.
And frankly, Democrats weren'tin a lot of them.
I mean, think about the WorldWrestling Entertainment, the Ultimate
Fighting, ufc, UltimateFighting Championship Rodeos.
These are all communitieswhere people were paying attention
not to politics, but to, youknow, to wrestling or, or cage fighting
(04:15):
or you know, whatever, youknow, and, and of course Democrats
wouldn't even think to gothere, let alone communicate in those
networks.
And so, but, but Trump, Trump,you know, he would go to UFC fights.
I mean he, he just knew thateither the new game is to create
attention, that any attentionis good because if you get it, it
(04:38):
keeps attention from anybody else.
And two, that so many peopleare not paying attention that you
have to be where they arepaying attention to some NASCAR or
something else.
And so he went to all the plaand the Trump campaign was communicating
in all the places where peoplewere paying attention to something
else other than politics.
(04:59):
We never communicated there.
I mean, weakness.
And then two took advantage ofthe, of the, of the networks that
they had built and was able.
It's like when he goes onTruth Social and he makes a statement
on truth Social.
Every reporter in mainstreammedia has to have a truth Social
(05:23):
account.
Why?
Because they don't want to getbeat by the other reporters that
are on it.
So he basically creates thisattention magnet.
We don't do that.
You know, I, I think theclosest moment may have been when
Joe Biden posted that he waswithdrawing from the, you know, that
he was not going to run againon X.
(05:46):
That's the, you know, it waslike the one time thing and even
then it was so rare that wedid it that no one knew whether it
was true or not because like,you know, maybe is, maybe he had
been hacked.
So I, I think in a lot of waysthat the, the, they learned some
real important lessons that,that I've been kind of screaming
(06:06):
about, you know, with, to, toour side of, you know, that we've
got to, we, we, they own, we rent.
They own X, they own Fox, theyown Sinclair Broadcasting.
Sinclair Broadcasting takesthe profits and buys another local
station that'll do.
(06:26):
Continue the propaganda intheir news every night at 6:00.
And then you have the chairmanof Sinclair Broadcasting buying the
Baltimore sun.
So they, they, they use allthat to, and they buy more and more
media and more and morepropaganda outlets and then what
do we do?
We rent.
We rent.
We buy ads on Fox, buy ads onthe local Sinclair station, buy ads
(06:49):
on X, on Facebook, on all of it.
Make them, make them moremoney so they can buy more network
and own more of the, theinformation flow and the propaganda
flow that they have.
So you know, my thing is we'vegot to start owning, stop renting.
We've got to create our own networks.
(07:09):
That's what I'm doing with anew social network, pro democracy
social network called says us,where we're now in app stores, both
Google and Apple.
So I hope people will go checkthat out.
But that's just one thing wegot to do.
Many, many.
Your, your podcast.
I mean that's, we've got toreally start flooding the zone with
our own, our own efforts andstop renting on theirs.
(07:34):
Yeah, well, you know,depending on the polling you look
at, Democrats have a, either a27 or 29% favorability rating with
the American public.
So we've clearly done ahorrible job of communicating.
And as you just described,it's gotten inordinately harder.
I mean they control social media.
They've beaten the mainstreammedia into submission.
(07:54):
So how do we punch throughthat bubble to, to get our message
out there?
Well, that's my point actually.
Look, I think their networkshave become so pervasive that it,
you know, all this talk about,hey, we have to re, rebrand the Democratic
Party or we have to, you know,become more left, more right, whatever,
(08:17):
more centrist.
Doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter because theywill so demonize whoever the candidate
is or whatever the flavor thatwe end up over the next couple of
years creating that by thetime we launch that candidacy with
that new message, they'll,they'll have been, you know, like
(08:37):
you saw them do to HillaryClinton what they did with Biden.
Even though the, you know, thejobs numbers were going up, they
convinced everybody that therewere no, there were no jobs and that
the economy was, was, was garbage.
Certainly the economy needed,you know, needed to improve and all
that, but not to the extentthat they had convinced everybody.
(08:59):
And that's with the, by theway, with the mainstream media every
week or every jobs reportsaying great jobs report but, but
their insidious networks,propaganda networks were so, and
that's where people aregetting their messaging now.
Their, their information.
They're not getting itwatching David Muir on abc.
I mean a few million are, butmost of them are getting it from
(09:23):
social networks so that they,they run.
So yes.
Do we have to look at ourmessaging and our, and, and we have
I think a, A, a lot of youngaggressive potential candidates for
the future.
And so I, I think the, thecandidates piece will take care of
(09:45):
itself.
I mean we can all get intowhether that's, which one is your
favorite right now.
But, and they're certainlygoing to have a big debate debate
and someone will emerge andlead the party.
I'm not concerned about thatas much as what we all need to do
to build I think things likepodcast networks, things like a pro
(10:10):
democracy social network likewe're trying to build.
It says us, it's sez us by theway, just in case anybody listeners
want to want to check it out.
But my point is, you know,things like the Lincoln Project,
we just launched LincolnSquare, which is a media platform
(10:32):
substack again to startbuilding that muscle that, that,
that messaging muscle.
Because unless we do, therewill not be a way to deliver the
message in today's, you know,in today's media environment.
I, my point would be, youknow, like says us, we have 10,000
people that joined becausebasically we kept it there on purpose
(10:56):
to get the bugs out of it andthat kind of thing.
You know, it's now somethingthat, okay, people go, well geez,
why would I post on a socialnetwork that only has 10,000 people
on it?
Well, it's the pro democracysocial network.
None of the other ones aregoing to do that.
And so yeah, can we get it to100,000 in a couple of weeks, a month?
(11:18):
Can we get it to a couple million?
If we all start, you know,building it, can we get it to 50
million by, by you know, 2026?
And the thing that peopledon't realize, 3, 310 of a percent
of all social network accountsare toxic.
Only 310 of a percent.
(11:39):
Those 310 of a percent deliver80% of the fake news and disinformation
on this on all social networks.
So you have 80% of the liesbeing amplified and created and centered
around by 310 of the percentof people on social.
How do you.
(11:59):
Let's kill the three, let'sget the three 10 off ours.
Let's.
And let's try to startinviting more and more Americans
into a civil, pro democracysocial network that we built and
we own.
So that's, I mean, that's sortof my, my case for why we, for why
you're.
The things you're doing, thethings that we're doing at the Lincoln
(12:22):
Project at Lincoln Square andit says us are some of the most important
things that, that people can do.
They listen to this, maybethey'll join the social network too,
you know, and then on thesocial network, hopefully you guys
will start posting there.
I know.
I think David has been or willbe and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll
(12:43):
build it, you know.
Yeah, been posting quite a bit actually.
I love it.
Sczus us.
Yep.
Hey, Joe, we had, we had DavidJolly on not too long.
I think it was David Jolly.
David, correct me if I'mwrong, but we were talking about
how, you know, on theRepublican side, you know, on the
Democratic side we want to runon our policies, you know, here's
(13:03):
what we want to do to makelife better.
And on the Republican side,it's it.
Their campaigns are centeredaround demonizing their opponent.
It's not so much policy, it'spainting the other, the opposition
candidate as a, you know,child molesting pervert, and it is
working for them.
How do we get our side to bemore aggressive and fight harder,
(13:26):
you know, in the, in the trenches?
If we don't win the election,the policies don't matter.
Yeah, I think, look, the, thelesson in all this is that they,
is what you said, thedemonization is what, is what matters.
Right.
So that, like I caution peopleto not pay too much attention to
(13:47):
Trump's low economic approval rating.
I mean, it's, you know, it'snow, you know, I think the lowest
it's ever been for just aboutanybody at this point in the presidency.
It's not, no one's.
So they're testing.
Where do you think, you know,what do you think of his handling
the economy?
Well, that's not being testedagainst the candidate that's running
(14:09):
against him is a, is a commie,trans loving pedophile, in other
words.
So what I'm saying is, yeah,everybody gets, oh, look, he's, his,
his approval's falling.
Yeah, well, that onlyincreases the the vitriol and the
demonization that's going tooccur again to anybody who, who we
(14:33):
stand up and again they havebetter delivery and networks, et
cetera.
So we go to the same problem.
I think the other thingthough, you're right MO is you know,
well, a couple of things.
It turns out knocking on doorsevery two years in October is not
going to stop.
It's not, it does not balancefour years of demonization.
(15:00):
You're not going to undo thatevery two years at the doors.
Although the doors are important.
Important.
That's what it's, it's one ofthese things where we, and yeah,
build that wall, Mexico willpay for it is something that's quick
and easy and everybody get.
And then of course ourresponse isn't a simple response
(15:21):
that everybody, you know, easyto understand.
Very short.
It's the explanation, the reason.
The, the, the, the, the data,the, the charts that show that immigration
is actually not as bad asthey, you know, I mean it's all this
explanation stuff.
And I look, we're in a worldforget about our own networks.
You know, we're now down tothe evening news.
(15:44):
The average sound bite is nine seconds.
Nine seconds.
That's look at X where youhave to, you know, whatever 250 characters,
blue sky, 300something characters.
There's not a whole lot ofnuance or explanation that you can
get through um, in that shortattention span by the way.
(16:06):
And, and we as Americans haveeven shorter and shorter and shorter
attention span as we're doomscrolling and all those other things.
So yes, we have to learn todeliver our message.
Short, tough again.
Remember what I said earlier,it's about getting attention.
We have to get people's attention.
(16:26):
We have to do things or saythings that get.
That's what Trump does.
But that's the world also thatwe're in that he gets and we don't.
I talking about a lot of ourcandidates and a lot of our, our
committee, you know,committees, campaign committees out
there.
And, and so, you know, likeone of the ideas that I think it
(16:47):
was Ian Brenner at a, atProtect Democracy had, you know,
just in terms of explainingthis attention thing, if the party
announced tomorrow, theDemocratic Party announced tomorrow
that it was holding aconvention in November to nominate
its presidential candidate for 2028.
This, no, 2025 we are holding,we, you know, candidates can travel
(17:11):
the country, explain whythey're, why we should vote for them,
why they would take on Trumpand, and this authoritarian, authoritarian
regime.
And, and we will announce our,we'll hold a convention and announce
our nominee in 2025.
(17:31):
And for three years thatperson will be the opposition leader
leading us into the 2020, youknow, etc.
What I'm saying, I'm notsaying that's the idea we should
do, but what I am saying isit's clear, it's easy for you and
me and David and our listenersto understand how much attention
(17:53):
that fight for among, youknow, whether it's Newsom, Web, Westmore,
Whitmer, you know, Doug Jones,whoever, all these people running
the attention that that wouldbring to our, to what we're projecting
to what into any change inmessage that we were projecting.
(18:16):
And then that nominee beingthe nominee in 2025 and taking it
to Trump and, and possiblynaming their cabinet immediately
in November of 2025.
So that becomes the shadowcabinet taking on everybody else.
What I'm talking about hereisn't that that's the idea that that
attention is something that wehave to figure out because even the
(18:41):
best ideas, if we don't, if wecan't grab people's attention and
I think so we have to createmechanisms to do that.
They do that all the time andalso start communicating where people
are paying attention andthat's places that, you know, NASCAR,
WWE, UFC, etc.
(19:01):
Etc.
We've got to figure ways to dothat while we create, while we create
our own network to, todistribute our ideas out there.
The way Elon can amplify on Xall the, all the bad ideas and, and
the division in anger thatthat's fomenting and, and tearing
at the fabric that of trustand community that that democracy
(19:25):
depends on.
So Joe, I grew up in Iowa andWarren county around Tom Harkin and
Phil Davitt, John Culver andother good Democrats.
Let's hearken back to the olddays if you don't mind.
What's one of your favoritesMondale days or the Dean days when
you were running those campaigns?
Give us, give us a littlecolor on what it was like to be.
(19:45):
With look, back then, Iowa waslike a place where I would have told
you if we only, if you couldonly, only one state would decide
who the nominees or who thepresident would be.
I would have said Iowa.
It was, it was just an amazing host.
You know, a host place wherethey would listen to everybody and,
(20:11):
and weren't playing politicsand like would, would.
Would I, I think always pickthe right person, you know, even
if it wasn't my guy, you know,but so, you know, I think that that
the, you know The Deancampaign was.
Was there was a change thatstarted happening that, that, that
(20:34):
year in 2004, up until 2004, Iwould have said what I just said
then.
In 2004, I think a lot of, inmy view, a lot of dirty tricks got
played.
Um, and I mean, for instance,in the Dean campaign on the.
This.
I think it was the Saturdaybefore the election, before the caucuses,
(20:54):
if you.
Every single Dean supporterwas called like 16 times and it was
like, hey, this is, this isthe Dean campaign.
Just wanted to make sureyou're going to vote on, you know,
go to the caucus.
Fifteen minutes later, hey,David, this is the Dean campaign.
Just want to make sure youwant to go to the caucus.
By the time we made the onecall to remind them to go to the
(21:15):
Dean can go for us, we were literally.
Our own supporters werescreaming at us, if you, I'm not
voting for you.
I'm not going.
Don't call me ever again.
Which I think had a lot to dowith why we went from first to third.
But that's the, That's.
We were already.
That had already happenedbefore the scream happened.
But.
(21:35):
And look, I don't know whichcampaign did it, but you know how
Iowa works, David.
You.
Every campaign goes in, callsthrough the entire state, identifies
the Kerry voters, the Deanvoters, the gap part voters, or whoever's,
you know, Obama and Hillaryand Edwards.
And then you go to work on theundecided as well.
They had.
Somebody had a nice file ofwhen they had recorded people who
(21:58):
said they were for Dean andthey did everything they could to.
To mess with those people.
And that's where I think youstarted to see the turn in my view
of where it.
It, you know, where the partylater on starts to decide, which
I think was a huge mistake towalk away from Iowa being first.
(22:19):
I just, I.
I was so against that becauseI still would trust the people of
Iowa before I.
Even in this polarized, crazytime we're in, before I turn it over
to any other state.
Obviously you don't ever wantone state to decide, but that's how
much I believe in.
In the people of Iowa still.
(22:39):
I was just back there.
I was Frankel.
The.
The was running for the Senateand I was out there with Doug Jones,
campaigning for him with himand for him.
And I still felt that, I mean,he lost, but I still felt that, that,
that, you know, it's a fair.
(22:59):
You get a fair shake.
There is, I guess, the, thebest, you know, but I do think the
innocence of the place interms of how polit conducted changed
somewhere not obviously wasn'tGore Bradley.
It was, it was started, in myview to turn in 2020, in 2004.
Yeah, it was probably relatedto money too.
(23:20):
Remember, that was when moneystarted to come into politics.
I mean, I grew up when, youknow, when you're in politics, the
only people that made moneywas the radio and the TV stations
and yeah, maybe the newspaper.
And now, I mean, look at theconsultant class that I say very
disparagingly, the amount ofmoney these feet people.
What, what are your thoughtson consultants and taking on races
(23:43):
they know are going to losejust for the fees.
What are your thoughts?
No, look, I think theconsultant class is, is largely responsible
for what, what happened in 2024.
And I mean, it's, it's again,like who you're running a presidential
campaign or you're the mediaconsultant for a presidential campaign
that's got like $600 millionin the bank or whatever it is.
(24:06):
Who's going to tell them toget out?
I don't mean that in a, youknow, I mean, there's lots of other
reasons.
You don't tell somebody thatyou like a lot and they've been working
for it for years not to, notto do something.
But I'm just saying it's likeI did the, the fascinating thing
so in, when Jerry Brown ranfor governor in the, you know, the
second comeback for governoragainst Meg Whitman.
(24:30):
So meg Whitman spent $187million against Jerry Brown.
Jerry Brown raised $37 million.
So she's spending $187 million.
She has a 14 point lead.
14 points on Labor Day becauseshe spent $100 million.
While I had to beg Jerry tolike, not spend any money.
(24:51):
We're not going to do anythingbecause then we'll get to a place
on Labor Day where she's got87 million and we've got 37 million.
It won't, won't be a fairfight, but that's a lot better than
187 to 37.
So we waited.
She built up a 14 point lead.
We beat her by 14 points, 28point swing, while she still had
87 million and we had 37 million.
(25:13):
Now, let me get you the punchline.
The punchline was I did thatrace for a flat $300,000, which is
nothing.
Right.
The consultants who worked forMeg Whitman.
Oh, my God, 5%, 10% of that.
10%.
Yeah, whatever.
You're talking about.
18 million.
You know, I don't, we don'tknow but just making it, you know,
(25:35):
you know, relatively fair.
Guess I think there was somereport that it was like 20 something
million after the.
They checked the FEC reports.
That's not my, My point isn't.
Isn't whether it was 10million or 20 million.
It's that.
No, it's totally because ofthe vast amounts of money swimming
around out there.
(25:55):
The, the kind of mercenary formoney thing in the consulting class
on both sides has I, I think,done a lot of damage.
I agree.
And it, and it's eroded donor confidence.
Yeah.
Because who.
You.
You get snookered into giving,you know, raising.
Yeah.
$16 million into the MarjorieTaylor Greene race in Georgia.
(26:19):
Right.
Yeah.
We lose by 35 points.
Yeah.
Not only in 18, but 20 and 22.
And the guys are walking away.
And here's the other thingthat's really irritating that people
probably don't know thosemailing lists become property of
that candidate.
They sell them off.
Oh, yeah.
They're off selling them.
So, you know, you gotcandidates and consultants that are
making money off of lists that.
(26:40):
From that race they knew wasgoing to lose from the start.
And listen, I, I'm all forentrepreneurs making money.
If you win.
Hell yeah.
I mean, pay.
Would you pay $20 million towin the California governor's race?
Yes, that'd be.
Jerry would not.
Jerry wouldn't.
Well, Jerry wouldn't.
But, you know, if you but hadsomebody and they won, that would
have been terrific.
But no, but it's also.
(27:02):
How much do you need?
It's like, you know, at somelevel, like, you know, hit Whitman
said, I'll pay you 3 millionto do my race.
They're paying trippy 300,000.
I mean, like, okay, you know,you know what I'm saying?
But that just doesn't happen.
A lot of it is like you said,because it's at the front door.
Right.
How much is Meg Whitmanwilling to pay to be the U.S.
(27:25):
the governor of California?
Well, she raised, she wrote$187 million check.
Therefore, why wouldn't shewrite a $20 million check to the,
to the, quote, consultant whois telling her she could win?
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, that's the other thing.
You go in, no one's going into see these people and saying, like,
there's no chance for you to win.
(27:46):
That's happened once in my career.
Seth Moulton against Tierneyin Massachusetts.
He was behind in the firstpoll by like 59 point.
And Mark Melman was the pollster.
And God bless Mark.
Mark Melman, who I, I believehis Numbers and would, you know,
trust in the trench at anytime, go into the battle with him.
(28:08):
But he told, he started the,the call saying, seth, this was going
to be a poll briefing, but wehave to talk about how we get you
out of the race with some dignity.
And what, what happened waspretty amazing though.
And this is another thing thatdoesn't happen.
You very rarely now run intomany candidates that will tell, that
will, you know, do somethingthe poll says you should or shouldn't
(28:30):
do.
You know, the poll says, saythis, there's, you know, a lot of
candidates just go, oh, okay,sure, that's what I'll say.
Seth turned to Mark and justsaid, I don't care.
I'm a Marine, damn it.
I've had bullets flying overmy head.
I don't, you know, I don'tneed to get out of anything with
dignity.
There's nothing they can do to me.
I'm running.
(28:51):
And so we, and Mark and puthis ore in the water and we all put
our or in the water and guesswhat happened?
A guy who actually believed inwhat he was saying and believed in
what he was fighting for wonthat election.
It was like the huge upset.
So.
But that's a rare thing now.
That's really rare.
And the candidate went in,Candidate went in.
(29:11):
Eyes wide open though too,because you guys were honest with
him up front.
Yeah, yeah, but that's whatI'm saying.
That's, that doesn't, that's.
I've never, I can't recallbeing in another meeting where a
consultant said, no, you know,keep your check, don't.
We should end this now.
Don't spend the money you've raised.
Get out of the race.
It doesn't, that doesn'thappen anymore.
(29:33):
And like I said, the one timethat happened, the candidate told
us to go to hell.
Right, right, right, right, right.
And then one.
So yeah, it's a.
So no, that.
But those are the kinds ofthings that you see, you know, coming
up from 79.
It started in 79.
Both the shift in the way themedia fragmented at every level.
(30:00):
I mean, look, I was there in,in 92, Joe Costello and I, because
we were still frustrated withTV being a one way thing, you know,
where you could yap at peoplebut they couldn't interact.
Decided to.
We talked Jerry Brown intousing an 800 number when he, whenever
he was talking to the press or talking.
(30:23):
And so in the middle of theNBC debate, He's holding this 800
number up and urging people tocall the 800 number and then we had
put it in our ads.
We raised $8 million and then$8 million that way in 92.
And then the Internet came along.
So I've been sort of part of this.
How do you build these networks?
How do you get people engaged?
(30:43):
Even when all we had was aphone and a T, you know, a TV screen,
we were still.
I was still trying to figurethat out.
Now I've watched what they'vebeen able to do.
I'll tell you this.
This is the one Howard Dean had.
Blog for America.
We.
We started Blog, we launchedthe blog.
About 650,000 peop.
(31:03):
Americans were on that blog.
And every morning Howard wouldcome on, post something, and then
like, you know, they.
People who are following us would.
Would say, howard, you know,that's great.
And somebody else would saysomething by noon.
I'd come on and say, David,that's a great idea.
You just posted.
Howard's going to say ittonight in the.
(31:25):
In his speech.
And then Howard would do it inthe speech one day.
No one's ever done that.
No one in our party.
And no Republican has everdone that until in 2016, I wake up
and there's this guy, DonaldTrump, on Twitter, and he's posting
in the morning and everybody,17 million people are following him
(31:50):
on Twitter at the time and atnoon, Pascal on the.
His guy on social and runningIT posts, hey, Frank, that's a great
idea.
And tonight Donald's going touse it in his speech.
And I'm sitting there saying, crap.
The only guy who ever.
Who got this, I mean, who got that.
(32:10):
You could build that kind ofconnection in all of politics.
From 2004, from the HowardDean Blog for America.
Twitter was Donald Trump'sblog for America.
And that should scare theliving daylights out of it.
Should convince people we gotto build our own network like we
did with Blog for America.
(32:31):
Because all the rest are ownedby Zuckerberg or Elon or soon to
be owned by a vc.
You know, who's moreinterested in the.
The Whatever needs to.
Whatever anger divisioncreates more eyeballs and more hysteria.
That creates more.
More energy.
(32:52):
That's what they're gonna.
That's what they're gonna.
That's what's destroying.
That's literally what'sdestroying our democracy right now.
Yeah, yeah.
His capacity to use it.
And, and a little bit I knowabout parscale.
I assume he went back andstudied your campaign and stole that
idea.
Oh, yeah.
No, no, well, I, Well, I.
No, no, unfortunately, I cantell you, like in 2007, I sat down
(33:15):
with, with Axelrod, you know,early maybe 2006, and I said to him,
hey Ax, you know, if, if youguys do this right, you can raise
a half a billion dollars onthe Internet.
And Ax just turned to me witha little smirk on his face and said,
yeah, you know, I read that ina book somewhere.
(33:35):
So yeah, probably the biggest.
And so yeah, like, you know,we, I, I, I'm sure that those guys
all, you know, look, they,they went to school on what was working.
I'm sure they went to schoolon the, on the Obama campaign.
You know, they went to schoolon what we were doing, what worked
and they perfected it whilethe rest of the, you know, while
(33:59):
the, like I said, I think theonly lesson that pervaded from Dean
to Obama, and then of course,because Obama raised did raise a
half a billion dollars from 3million people.
That's what, that's what kindof like took, you know, took the
focus of every other campaignout there.
I mean, in, you know,including Mo.
(34:20):
Hey, how much money can weraise in my campaign on the Internet?
You know, I mean, I'm notcondemning anybody for that.
I'm just saying that's whatour success in that actually I think
blinded us to, to probably the most.
The more important lesson outof that campaign didn't blind me,
(34:42):
but it was hard convincingothers other campaigns to Mo was,
Mo's into building the community.
But I'm just saying that's notthe focus of most staffs out there
and definitely not the focusof consultants.
They, they want to, they wantto hire the best like who could raise
us $30 million on theInternet, right?
So I think that overwhelmedour side while their side again,
(35:07):
you know, you got Elon Musk,you got all these billionaires, you
had, you know, all themillionaires with H.W.
bush and George Bush and W.
I mean they're, they're, theyweren't as interested in that.
Now the, the, the, the counterthing that I'm sure has happened
is if you build that kind ofnetwork, the low dollar money comes
(35:28):
in.
So because they concentratedon building those networks, Breitbart
x truth, social, etc.
Guess what?
Guess what's happened, right?
They, they, they're nowswamping us with low dollar money
as well.
On top of whatever the bill,you know, elon writing a 45 million
dollar check a week orwhatever the hell he was doing during
(35:51):
that thing.
Hey Joe, I don't know if yousaw Ezra Klein had a piece this week.
It was an Interview with David Shore.
Right.
Which I found really interesting.
The, you know, stats showedthat between 2016 and 2024 there
wasn't a huge shift amongwhite voters or black voters, but
the big shift was in Hispanicand Asian votes where there was a
(36:13):
large move to the right.
And it also pointed out that10% of the electorate are immigrants
and Biden carried that, thatgroup BY I think 23 or 24 points.
But four years later, Trumpwins it by a point or two.
We're losing, seems like we'relosing the bubble in minority communities.
And how do we, how do we tapback into them?
(36:34):
Well, I mean I think we're, Ithink, excuse me, I think both things
are true, right, that we, wehave to do a better job of, of, of
communicating with blue collarworking whites and, and people, you
know, regardless.
I mean we, I just think we'velost a lot of that, our support among
less educated whatever, youknow, and, and, and middle income
(36:58):
or lower working folks.
So I think that's, that.
I don't know what, what Shoreshowed about that, but I think that's
clear a problem.
I also, you know, StuartStevens was saying from the very
beginning that Trump'scoalition is really fragile and the
reason it's fragile is becauseof what you just talked about that
(37:19):
he had done so well withHispanics and Latinos and is now
going to try to mass deportseveral million of them.
That's not going to go overwell even with a lot of the legal,
you know, folks that are herein terms of, it's not going to go
over just the, just the imagesof it are going to heard is favorable.
(37:40):
That has happened already.
I mean he's already, you know,dropped big time with, with both
Asians and, and Hispanics.
So that part of the co.
And the problem is if hedoesn't deport, deport millions of
them, then his, the whitenationalist maga, you know, racial
(38:01):
racist group.
He, he, yeah.
Oh, you bullshitting us.
So he's kind and that's justone area.
But there's, you see it withElon Musk and HB1 visas, you know,
pushing up against the mega.
No, you got to keep them all out.
Why are you letting the richones in?
You know, all that stuff thatcreates the, the dissonance.
(38:24):
It exists and, and I thinkthe, by the way, we have to count
on a bunch of things, right?
We have to count on, we getour act together on messaging, we
build better vehicles tomessage better networks, our own
networks.
We own them.
We don't Rent and we have tohave them overreach and, and, and
(38:49):
make mistakes and beincompetent at what they're doing.
I mean, in other words, weneed them to fail.
They're doing a pretty goodjob of that or at least dividing
self, kind of have somewarfare between themselves and the
different divisions that's happening.
But we need that to happen.
It won't just be, it's notgoing to be enough for us to come
up with a better messenger andeven to start building those networks.
(39:12):
They, they've got, I thinkevery day they prove that they shouldn't
be in government, that they'retrying to destroy government and
they're impacting enoughpeople that he's probably already
in trouble and the other introuble in terms of his, his support.
But the other thing we got toremember is there's always been a
(39:32):
big difference between whenhe's on the ballot and when he's
not on the ballot.
So one, he won't be on theballot in 2026.
Every one of those midtermswhere he hasn't been on the ballot,
we've, we've been able to makethe, the gains that we needed to
make.
Our, our problems have been,you know, like 2024, when he's on
the ballot, they, you know,they can hold it, take everything.
(39:55):
So one 2026, the house isgoing to be one thing, David, getting
into your, like, whatcandidates to support and all that
stuff.
Look, folks, there'll be somesenators that are going to need help.
We had to.
But there, there are likemaybe 10 House seats, maybe 12 that
are going to matter.
And that's where if you'regoing to help, if you're going to
(40:15):
write postcards, if you'regoing to send money, be, you know,
those are the places that you,you've got to be there.
There certainly will be somefights in the Senate, and I'm not
arguing about not supporting aSenate candidate by any means.
We need to win them all.
But we've got to take theHouse back.
If we don't, if we take thehouse back in 2026, that's going
(40:37):
to put more sand in the gears,slow him up.
Where there'll be, you know,they won't be able to get their agenda
through without, without, youknow, the House signing on.
Right now they got all three.
I don't, you know, we might beable to gain something in the Senate.
Doesn't look likely given themaps, but the House is the place
where we have to focus.
(40:57):
I think I'm Just curious.
Speaking of the House, youhelp get Tulsi Gabbard elected to
the, the hell happened to her?
You know, she, when, when weworked for her back then, the first,
her first race for the, forthe House is when she was elected.
Man, she was a rising star inthe party.
(41:17):
I mean, a big rising star.
I think everybody agreed on that.
And, and then she didn't run.
I think maybe she ran forreelection one time, but she left
the House pretty, prettyquickly after that.
And I, and I, you know, Iremained, you know, email once in
(41:37):
a while, but I didn't see itcoming at all.
I mean, I cannot tell you.
I wish I could tell you whathappened or, or why she's, you know,
became so enamored with Trumpand, and the hard right.
Because I saw no signs of itat all.
None.
And even like the attacks onher religious beliefs and things
(42:00):
like that, I mean there werethose, some of those were occurred
in that campaign.
But back then, I mean, Ibasically, and I still believe this,
we're a country where, youknow, you know, I thought we got
over that with jfk.
I mean, the way I thoughtabout it was, I thought we got over
that with JFK and you know,you know, was he going to listen
(42:21):
to the Pope, you know, thatyour religious beliefs don't have
anything to do with, you know,it's not a.
As long as you're like he didsaying, hey, I'm, I'm.
You're.
I represent you.
Not, not, not my church.
And she was like that.
And I still think she is.
So I don't know.
(42:41):
I cannot tell you what I saw.
No signs at all.
It's unfortunate.
She seems to have gone off thedeep end and I agree with you, she
was a rising star.
She had one of the keynote addresses.
Dnc, the only thing, I mean,that's what I'm saying.
I don't know, like, because Ialso don't know if something behind
the scenes where she, youknow, like she realized she wasn't
(43:01):
going to be, you know, berising the party or something.
I don't.
But I never got any, anythinglike that.
I thought, wow, like SethMoulton, like Ro Khanna, I've helped
elect another, you know,rising star in the party and then,
you know, again, you can look.
That's the spectrum, right?
I mean like you, you, you,you, you.
(43:23):
I, I've always tried hard to,to be more in tune with what's going
on in the district and whatwas going on nationally.
Like does, you know, how doyou Elect somebody in Hawaii.
Well, you know, Hawaii got Hindus.
It's got all kinds of, youknow, different religions.
And so I never.
So that was, you know, andthen, you know, Rokhana in Silicon
(43:45):
Valley, Seth Mollie, you know,in Massachusetts, and there's several
other members of Congress.
And, you know, Ron Wyden up in Oregon.
I did his race with thePackwood Special.
In fact, Doug Jones and Ron Wyden.
Ron Wyden won my first specialSenate election.
(44:05):
And the last one, you know,years later, was Doug Jones.
I've won two of those.
They don't come up very often,but, you know, Doug Jones is very
different than Ron Wyden.
And you had to run a race thatwould win in Alabama.
Yeah.
So I don't know.
Again, I just.
All I can say is, gosh, he wasa rising star and.
(44:28):
And then became a rising star in.
In Trump land.
And I just.
Trump.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Makes you wonder.
Yeah, Makes you wonder.
I wonder how many other peopleare going to bounce over there.
Who knows, someday.
But, you know, you've donethis with such integrity over the
years, though, Joe.
I commend you for that.
You've never been in theheadlines for bullshit or for ratting
out a client of yours orstealing their money, and I really
(44:52):
respect that of you and you.
But you've also, you know, wonsome really terrific races.
And so I want to thank youfor, for joining Mo and myself today.
It's been a terrific conversation.
You're a man of your word and,and a man that gets shit done, and
that's very valuable these days.
Do you mind if I plug my.
My own podcast?
(45:12):
Absolutely, yes, please.
It's that trippy show, so ifyou thought this was interesting
and you want to hear more,I'll probably have David over on
it.
Okay, cool.
We'll do some cross promotion.
But if you.
You get a chance, check outthat trippy show wherever you find
your favorite podcast.
Terrific.
Well, and.
(45:32):
And I also, I am a user overat Sezsez Us and I encourage folks
to go over there, check it out again.
Joe's a man of his word and integrity.
He wouldn't ask us to go thereif a piece of Jun.
And I've been posting therethe last couple weeks and getting
lots of good response and it'seasy to use.
So I encourage folks to goover there and help Joe out.
(45:54):
And you can get it in your appstores for your iPhone or your Android
by going to your apps, Googleor Apple Store as well.
So thanks.
Thanks a lot.
David well that's a wrap forthis episode of mucu where we cut
through the crap and call itlike it is.
If you like what you heard,subscribe, share and spread the word,
please go, says Sec us and setup your account show.
(46:14):
I'll catch you next time withmore facts and a whole lot less bullshit.
All then, on behalf of Mo andmyself, Muck you.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville,
North Carolina and DavidWheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina.
Thanks to our guest today, JoeTrippy, co founder of SEZ us, the
host of that Trippy show andan advisor to the Lincoln Project.
(46:38):
Muck U is produced by American Muckrakers.
Copyright 2025.
You can learn more and donateat americanmuckrakers.
Com.
Follow us on xsezes Us andBlue sky under American Muck.
Come back soon for a new episode.
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