The Iron Dome of Irony: Professor Amos Guiora and Life in Israel Post-October 7

Professor Amos Guiora, a legal expert with a rich background in the Israeli Defense Forces, joins Moe Davis for a riveting discussion that delves deep into the complexities surrounding Israel's current political and social climate, particularly after the harrowing events of October 7, 2023. They dive into Guiora's personal experiences and the stark contrast of life in Israel before and after the attack, emphasizing the psychological and physical toll on everyday citizens. Guiora reflects on the harsh realities faced by those living in conflict zones, highlighting how the day-to-day existence for many has transformed into a precarious balance of normalcy and fear. The conversation further unpacks the enablers of conflict and authoritarianism, drawing parallels to contemporary issues in the U.S. political landscape, ultimately questioning the fragility of democracy when subjected to internal and external pressures. Listeners are treated to a blend of informed analysis and personal anecdotes, making this episode a compelling exploration of resilience amid chaos.

Show notes:

- Guest bio: Professor Amos Guiora is a noted scholar and legal expert at the University of Utah School of Law, with extensive experience working within the Israeli Defense Forces, where he served as a legal adviser in the Gaza Strip.

- Utah Law School: [Link to the University of Utah School of Law website]

During a riveting exchange with host Moe Davis, Professor Amos Guiora sheds light on the profound shifts in Israeli life following the traumatic events of October 7, 2023. Having served as a legal advisor in the Israeli Defense Forces, Guiora brings a unique perspective to the discussion, intertwining personal anecdotes from his family’s history as Holocaust survivors with the current socio-political climate in Israel. The conversation navigates the complex landscape of daily life in Israel, where citizens grapple with the juxtaposition of ordinary routines against a backdrop of perpetual conflict and existential threat.

Guiora’s narrative is punctuated by his reflections on resilience and community, as he recounts how Israelis strive to maintain their cultural and familial bonds amid the chaos. He illustrates the psychological toll of living under constant threat, revealing the deep scars left by violence and the societal implications of such trauma. This episode delves into the challenges of balancing national security with humanitarian considerations, as Guiora critiques the Israeli government’s responses and the broader international implications of ongoing conflicts in the region.

Moreover, Guiora’s insights extend into the realm of political discourse, where he highlights the dangers of political polarization and the role of media as an enabler in this complex narrative. He calls for critical engagement with the issues at hand, urging listeners to recognize the humanity on all sides of the conflict. As the episode draws to a close, Guiora’s reflections resonate deeply, prompting a reevaluation of the narratives that shape our understanding of conflict and the urgent need for dialogue and empathy in a fractured world.

Takeaways:

• Professor Amos Guiora shares how daily life in Israel has drastically shifted post-October 7, emphasizing the psychological toll of constant threat.
• The conversation highlights the enablers of political regimes, drawing parallels between Israeli governance and American politics, especially in terms of accountability.
• Guiora discusses the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, stressing the distinction between Hamas and innocent civilians, while confronting the complexities of public perception.
• The podcast dives into the fragility of democracy, with Guiora arguing that the real threats often come from within, rather than external forces.
• Listeners get an intimate look at Guiora's personal history, including how his family's Holocaust...

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Welcome to MUCK YOU!. I'm MoeDavis, co host, along with David
Wheeler. David's taking theday off and thank you for joining
us. Got a special guest today,a longtime friend of mine, Professor
Amos Guiora, is joining usfrom out in Salt Lake City. Amos
grew up in Ann Arbor,Michigan, which I suppose explains

(00:29):
his devotion to the MichiganWolverines. And we're such good friends.
Yet most of you know, if youknow me, you know I'm a graduate
of Appalachian StateUniversity. And many of you remember
the greatest game in footballhistory, and Amos and I have survived
that. But Amos is, like Isaid, a longtime friend of mine and
a, a real scholar andstatesman and someone that we wanted

(00:54):
to have on to talk about someof the things that are, are going
on in politics andparticularly outside the US We've
kind of been focused over thelast couple of weeks on topics with
within the U.S. but Amos isuniquely qualified. He's an attorney,
grew up, as I said, in AnnArbor, Michigan, and then spent 20

(01:15):
years in the Israeli DefenseForces where he served as an attorney
and he was the legal adviserfor the Gaza Strip. And the way we
met is I was the actingcommandant of the Air Force JAG School
down in Montgomery, Alabama.And at the same time, Amos was the
commander of the Israeli, theMilitary Justice School, which is
the counterpart of our JAGschool. And he came for a visit and

(01:38):
that was some 20 plus yearsago, and we've been friends ever
since. And Amos's parents wereHolocaust survivors. His grandparents
were murdered at Auschwitz. AsI said, he spent a career in the,
in the idf. You know, I usedto, you know, bitch about my commute
when I was up in D.C. becausesometimes it took me, you know, two

(01:58):
hours to get to work. Well,Amos and his family live in Israel,
and Amos teaches at the lawschool at the University of Utah
in Salt Lake City. So he's gotone hell of a commute. He's a prolific
writer on the news quite a bitproviding commentary. He's got a
new book coming out we'll talkabout called Enablers across the

(02:19):
Ages Normalizing theUnimaginable. And Amos, really appreciate
you taking some time out tojoin us.
You know, first of all, it'salways a pleasure to spend time with
you. But I was chuckling whenyou referenced the disastrous Michigan
game against AppalachianState. And the fact that you and
I have maintained our greatfriendship in spite of that is nothing

(02:40):
but a miracle. But I knew youhad. I said to myself, he's going
to work it in there. Fine. Didit, we can now move on.
I couldn't let that one slide.That was just, you know, for folks
that live here in theAppalachian Mountains, you know,
that's one of those thingsthat's gonna, you know, it's gonna
linger for a long time. Butyou're, can we move on? All right,

(03:02):
well, listen, you know, youcertainly, you know, keep up with,
with world events and, andpolitics here in the state and you're,
you know, you're in Salt LakeCity right now, but you're frequently
back in, in Israel with yourfamily. And I thought that provides
a unique perspective that Ithink our, our audience would be
interested in. So let's startwith, you know, in Israel, I think

(03:25):
a lot of Americans are, areessentially clueless about Israel
and what life is like there. Iknow that about a week before the
October 7, 2024 Hamas attack,you were in Israel and you were,
you and your family weresubject subjected to an Iranian missile
attack. So I guess what I'dask you to do if you could describe

(03:47):
what day to day life is waslike in Israel before October 7th.
So it's interesting the wayyou frame it. They're clearly for
Israelis or for most Israelis,life before October 7, 2023 and life
after October 7, 2023. And itis as you reference, you know, the

(04:09):
book that I've finished, it'sthe closest day in contemporary Israel
to, to the Holocaust. And Ithink that's really important in
terms of how we frame thatSaturday and where are we now? 15,
16, 16 months later. And youare right that it was in April of
I think 2024 and then alsosometime this summer that indeed

(04:32):
I spent time, no, April 2024,I was in a flight leaving from JF
from wherever in America toIsrael. The flight was canceled at
the last moment because of theincoming from Iran. And then whenever
there was another incomingfrom Iran, I think, think in October,
I confess mo because for allof us Israelis the dates have run
together so much. But you'reright. I spent time in a bomb shelter

(04:54):
with my son in law, with mygranddaughters, another time with
a friend, my wife, daughterand one of the grandchildren. It's
a reality. And when you askabout how life is for Israelis, I
think it's going to depend onfirst of all where they live. So
we live outside Jerusalem andobviously, as I say, we have spent

(05:14):
time in the bomb shelter.People who live in southern Israel
on the Gaza border. I can'timagine what life is like after October
7th. And then for people wholive on the Northern border on Lebanon,
for instance. We have familythat have been evacuated. They are
now living in their, I think,fourth residence in the past 14,
15 months. And that obviouslytakes a toll every which way on Sunday.

(05:38):
But on the other hand, on theother hand, I was in Tel Aviv in
December or January, Decemberor January. I don't remember which
one. Sorry. And there was. Ifinished a meeting and there was
an air raid siren. And you runto the shelter and everybody's there.
Those who know each other,know each other. Those who don't
know each other, don't knoweach other. And the. The air raid
ends. The Iron Dome. And thenyou just go back to the street and

(05:59):
you go on with life as ifnothing. And I think that's important
for people to understand thatwe have. It depends on where you
live. You have X seconds torun from where you are into the shelter
or again, wherever you live. Ithink for. Never say everybody, but
for many of us, maybe I canonly testify as to myself. When the
air raid siren ends, yousimply run. Yes, ends. And then you

(06:21):
go on with your meetings. AndI think that that's essential because
the last thing you want to do,again speaking only for myself, mo,
is you never want to give theother side the sense that they are
wearing you down, that theyare preventing you from going about
your normal daily life. Andperhaps that's difficult for people
who've never had theprivilege, quote, unquote, of being

(06:45):
in an air raid shelter orduring the Iron Dome type siren,
that it ends and you go backto what, whatever you were doing,
because I think otherwise you,you, you, quote, unquote, give in.
And that again, speaking onlyfor myself and for my family also,
and absolutely refuse to gothere. And you go back to the street,
you go back to your meeting,you go back to whatever you were

(07:05):
doing, and life continues,because otherwise you fall down or
go down that dark rabbit hole,which I, I think most of us absolutely
refuse to make.
On October 7, you were in Israel.
No, I was actually. My wifeand I were on vacation in Paris Saturday
morning, October 7, 2023, andmy wife woke me up, she kicked me,

(07:26):
and she said, we're at war.And I confess, I have no idea. You
know, I had no idea what thehell she was talking about because
we were in Paris. What war? Isaid, what are you talking about?
She said that our daughter hadjust texted her that what had happened,
happened. We turned on the BBCand indeed we saw, and I think like
anybody and everybody else, wewere flabbergasted. Would be the
polite word, horrified wouldbe the more correct word. And then

(07:48):
we obviously looked for aflight to leave Paris as quickly
as possible. We obviouslyended our vacation, wanted to come
home immediately. And I thinkit took, I think it took a while
to understand the extent notonly of the, of the IDF's the Israel
Defense Forces utter and, andtotal failure, but I think more,
more painfully the, the extentof the unmitigated, unimaginable

(08:13):
harm to innocent Israelis,whether those who were killed in
their homes in the, on the,the kibbutzim and the, and the, on
the communities near the, theGaza border, those who were taken
hostage to Gaza and thenanybody who could Watch this on YouTube
to see what Hamas or GazansHamas and orgasms, which is also
an interesting question. Werewere doing to the hostages. The,

(08:37):
the, the rape of the women,the sexual assault of the women,
the killing of the women, therape and killing of the women. And
you remember watching this andyou're like you're, it can't be happening.
And then you understand it ishappening. And then we were getting
texts on the terrorists aremoving their way towards Tel Aviv
and all that is happening, youknow, simultaneous took a few days

(08:59):
for us to I think recognize ifI think back, you know, there are
two whatever 200 or so, right,240 Israelis held hostage that the
women were subjected to sexualviolence on a level that is beyond
unimaginable. And we also nowknow because one of the male hostages
who's been freed has, has madethe decision and I applaud him that

(09:21):
he too was sexually violated.And I applaud him for his courage.
And we know about the women,the sexual violence against women.
And the more you read, themore you read and the more you read.
And then started the call upsof Reserve Office of Reserve Soldiers.
As you well know, the IDF is astanding army, is a small army. We're
reservist based and I think atthe maximum the number was 300,000.

(09:41):
If you do easy math, which I'mnot good at. We're a population of
10 million. Of the 10 million,15% are Hasidic Orthodox Jews who
don't serve in the military.15% are Israeli Arabs. The majority
of which overwhelming majoritydon't serve in the army. Down to
70%. 70% of 10 million is,what is it, 7,300,000 mo is. Was

(10:01):
that 15 million Americansbeing called up to reserve duty for
a very long extended period.The economic impact on that huge
people's businesses wereclosed, the social costs, I don't
think we really fullyappreciate the social causes yet.
And in the meantime, soldierswere being killed, soldiers were
being wounded, and it was alsoclear that the government was not
functioning whatsoever. Somuch so I remember when I came back,

(10:23):
we came back from Paris, I wasasked to volunteer at a center in
Jerusalem and I was taskedwith raising money. Why was I raising
money? Because the governmentwas non functioning and we were raising
money from people worldwide,which in retrospect, I mean, I'm
glad I did it. But beyondoutrageous that the government was
so nonfunctioning that weneeded to raise money in order to

(10:45):
buy soldiers basic equipment.I mean, so it's an utter collapse
of the government. And that'ssomething that down the road we as
Israelis will need to address.
How about day to day life forordinary Israelis? Is it a marked
change since October 7th?
It's going to depend on theday. So today's Monday when hostages
were released on Saturday, thethree males who literally were emaciated,

(11:11):
it was a shock in our face, orshock for us to see them. It literally
brought back visions of theHolocaust, of Auschwitz. I think
Saturday in Israel was areally bad day. Today's Monday and
Hamas is supposed to releasemore hostages on whatever it is this
weekend. A couple hours agothey said they won't do it. Now it's
unclear if they'll do it. Andyou literally are living from announcement

(11:34):
to announcement. On the otherhand, to your question, people have
a business to attend, peoplego to school, people have lives.
There was just a, I'm a hugefan of the Jerusalem basketball team
in the Israeli League.There's, there was now a game in
Jerusalem and thousands uponthousands of people go, Last week
my son and my daughter in lawtook our grandson to a game because,
you know, you want life tocontinue, you can't raise your arms

(11:56):
and say, you know, in Yiddish,oy vey. And that's it. So life continues.
People in Tel Aviv, you'll seerestaurants filled, you know, coffee
houses filled. On the otherhand, when there's a siren, everything
changes. And when we hear thatsoldiers, the way it works in Israel,
I don't know how it works herein the States, Mo, but we're not
told that a soldier is killeduntil his parents know. And so during

(12:19):
the course of the day you'regiven the war, there are code words
that are used on the radio.And then you hear that X number of
soldiers have been killed. Andthat takes us all back, you know,
to where we were. And it's astark reminder that we are still
in it. On the other hand, youknow, you want to go to a coffee
house or you want to go havespend time with your family, and

(12:39):
there is that. I don't know ifyin and yang is the good word, but
one day here, one day there,and it can all turn on a dime. For
instance, when Hamas said thatthey won't release the hostages this
coming weekend, the IDF wenton immediate high alert. That's significant.
We all have kids, right? Weall have family. It's not like it's,

(12:59):
I think, not to be flippant,Mo. It's not like living in Geneva.
How's that?
Just as an aside, youmentioned, mentioned being a fan
of basketball here inAsheville. UNC Asheville had their
starter player last year wasDrew Pember, and Drew's playing over
in Israel now for aprofessional team.
So the only question is, whatteam does he play for? Because that
will depend. That willdetermine whether we can continue

(13:21):
our conversation or not.
I'm going to. Butch. I'm goingto butcher the name. It's Natanya.
Is that.
No, that's okay. We can stayfriends. Okay.
Okay. You know, one thing I,I've always appreciated about you
is that you have a verybalanced perspective. It seems like,
you know, on a lot of issues,people, you know, it's a very binary

(13:44):
thing where there's right andwrong, you know, good and bad, virtue
and evil. And it seems likewith. With, you know, Israel and,
you know, what happened on,you know, October 7th, I think, you
know, everyone was juststunned and shocked and saddened
by, by what happened. And thenover the months, I think folks have
also been, you know, saddenedand, and, you know, outraged over,

(14:07):
you know, the, the sufferingof. Of. Of Palestinians who, you
know, weren't part of Hamas.And it seems like too many people
want to, you know, say you'vegot to choose one or the other. And
it's, to me, more nuanced thanthat. So I'm just curious in your
perspective on how. How doyou. How do you balance the two?
So I think we are all aware tovarying degrees of what is happening

(14:32):
in Gaza as a consequence ofOctober 7th with respect to the actions
of the IDF. I think anybodywho turns on their TV or social media,
you can see that. Andobviously there's a delineation between
Hamas and innocent Gazans. Butthey're going to be a couple of buts
which may well irritate yourdistinguished audience. One, in either

(14:55):
2003 or 2004, Hamas wonDemocratic elections in Gaza. The
Gazan population, populationvoted for Hamas. Is this what they
voted for or not? I don'tknow. But Hamas won the election.
And I want to emphasize thatthat election was as democratic as
democratic can be. Democratic.To make October 7th happen requires

(15:16):
a pretty significantinfrastructure that goes well beyond
the members of Hamas whocrossed into Israel and killed the
Israelis or those from Hamaswho grabbed the Israeli hostages.
And it's very interesting toask, call it the center left in Israel.
Are you aware of. And you getthese conversations. They're difficult
conversations. Are you awareof what's happening in Gaza? Yes.

(15:37):
Does it bother you what'shappening in Gaza? Yes, but more
important for me are the fateof the hostages. Does it bother you
that it doesn't really botheryou? And you get, you know, some
people will say yes, but aslong as they are keeping the hostages
in tunnels, as long as theyare holding men, women, and there
are at least we know of twoinfants who have been held since

(15:59):
October 7th. One of thequestions in Israeli society is how
will the public react if andwhen Hamas announces that these two
infants were killed? I have noidea the public will react to that.
I know how the public reactedon Saturday when they saw the three
mesated Israelis. So, sure,we're all aware of the graphics and
soldiers. We've come home fromreserve duty and report, and there

(16:23):
are soldiers, to their credit,who've been very, very critical of
the IDF's actions. They thinkit's problematic, perhaps those who
think that it violates thelaws of war. On the other hand. On
the other hand, what willalways be remembered is the. I don't
know if I like this word, soyou'll excuse me, the utter rampage,

(16:43):
unhinged behavior on October7th. And that very much is for many
of us, front and center. Butwhat's going to complicate the complication,
if that weren't complicatedenough, is I remind you that before
October 7, after the Netanyahugovernment, after this government
came into power, when theyannounced what's called the judicial
reform, which is nothing morethan the evisceration of the rule

(17:05):
of law, it took us a couple ofweeks to understand that this is
actually threateningdemocracy. And within a few weeks
yet four to 500,000 Israelisevery Saturday night demonstrating,
that's 20 million Americansevery Saturday night demonstrating.
Now we're back todemonstrating against that because
we understand the government,in spite of what's going on in Gaza,
wants to reinitiate theengagement with evisceration of the

(17:26):
judicial reform. So, yes,what's happening in Gaza is problematic
as hell. I mean the picturesare awful, the fact that innocents
have been killed, awful. ButI'm going to give you another but
X percentage of thoseinnocents who were killed, all fault
with Hamas for turning theminto human shields. And for that,
Hamas needs to be heldresponsible and accountable. In addition

(17:49):
to that, I remind you that asIsraelis, we are in a seven front
war. You know, the Houthisfire the missiles from Yemen. We
have Jewish terrorism in thewest bank, we have Palestinian terrorism
in the West Bank. I'm notexactly sure what Syria is today.
I'm not sure Hezbollah towear. We have Hamas and we also have
Iran. So we're in a sevenfront war, small country, small army.

(18:13):
And were that not complicatedenough, I remind you that our, our
prime minister is on trial.Serious criminal offenses. He's on
trial in Tel Aviv, in thedistrict court, either in Tel Aviv
or Jerusalem. He is going tomake every effort not to work for
the release of the remaininghostages because it's been made very
clear to him by the extremeright wing members of his government,

(18:36):
remember coalition government,parliamentary democracy, that if
he goes forward and releasesall the hostages, which, which implies
a 100% ceasefire, they willleave his government. If his government
collapses, he's no longerPrime Minister. The trial will pick
up from one day in terms ofhearing him, he's the, he's the testifying
his own behalf from one everytwo weeks to three, four times a

(18:58):
week. He knows, he, Netanyahuknows as well as I do that the court
will convict him. And he alsoknows that if he's convicted, there's
a fair chance that he'll go tojail. I mean these are serious criminal
offenses. And that's one ofthe reasons that he is, I think it's
very clear in the last, notonly days, weeks, he has no interest
in seeing conclusion of thetwo or three stage hostage release

(19:19):
ceasefire. That is a call thata serious problem is, is an all time
understatement.
Yeah, I remember, you know,when, when they had the, the election
in Gaza and being shocked atthe outcome. But you know, I felt
the same way in November. Ifwe're here in America, we.
But don't forget, don't forgetthat Hamas replaced the Palestinian
Authority in Gaza, which wascorrupt. Palestinian Authority rules

(19:42):
the West Bank. PalestinianAuthority ruled Gaza until they were
warding up. And, and I thinkyou know that from 1994 to 1999,
officially I was involvedwhile serving the IDF, I was involved
in implementation of the Oslopeace process with respect to Gaza
and then from 2010 to 2018,19, I've been involved in pretty
significant track twonegotiations. Track two is unofficial

(20:06):
negotiations between us. Andhere's what's critical to your question
with representatives of thepaper, the west bank whose condition
to participate in theconversations with a two fold conversation.
Two fold condition. One, thatthere'd be nobody from Hamas participating
and two, that Gaza not be onthe table. So when people ask me
is there a chance for a twostate solution, the, the first question

(20:28):
is two state with whom? Withus. Us Israelis only with the west
bank or with Gaza and whatwill the west bank do without the
Gaza Strip? And as, as easy asit is to say, as tempting as to say
two state, two state solution.I well recall that one of the, one
of the PA representatives whoI spent a significant amount of time
told me once, he said, leaveus alone until we get our own house

(20:51):
in order. And it's clear thatthat house is not in order. And therefore
when I'm asked where's allthis leading without. We haven't
even discussed PresidentTrump's plan about the, what's it
called, the Riviera in Gaza.Right. The Palestinian west bank
versus West Bank, Gaza, Hamas,Palestinian Authority. That's an

(21:14):
issue that they are going tohave to resolve that we certainly
can't resolve for them.
You know, as you'redescribing, you know, Netanyahu having
in fact, you have an article Ithink came out today on the Oxford
Diplomatic.
It's coming out this week.I'll send you the link. Yes.
Yeah. Where you talk aboutwhat you were just describing, where
Netanyahu really has nointerest in seeing this concluded

(21:34):
because his personal is apersonal stake in keeping the controversy
going. It reminds me of, ofTrump and you know, we had the border
security, the bipartisanborder deal that you know is imminently
going to be passed and thenTrump intervened and stopped it because
for him keeping the crisisgoing was to his advantage in solving

(21:56):
the problem was would bedetrimental to him. So it seemed
like there are a lot ofsimilarities between Trump and Netanyahu.
I mean they both, they'reclose in age. They're obviously,
you know, Netanyahu was, washere over the weekend. They're obviously
quite close.
You know, I don't know. I'mgoing to respectfully be careful

(22:17):
on that one. I think thatTrump is so transactional and Netanyahu
is such a fanboy.
I don't know.
Do you have close relationsunder those circumstances? They're
not friends like you and I arefriends, right?
Yeah. Well, it seems likethey're both had this like aura of
corruption around 100%. Andyou described in your article that
you know, Netanyahu, you know,surrounded by sycophants and self

(22:38):
serving loyalists, whichsounds an awful lot like the criteria
to get a government job nowunder, under Trump.
I think I, as I understand it,you know more than I do. I read somewhere
yesterday on Saturday thatpeople who were interviewed for jobs
by Trump were not asked willyou be loyal to the Constitution
United States of America butwere asked will you be loyal to me?

(22:58):
By the way, Netanyahu did thisexact same thing when he was appointing
head of the Mossad, our CIA.By all accounts undenied. There were
two last candidates, A and B.And he asked them are you loyal?
Will you be loyal to me? Andone said I'll be loyal to the state
and the other said I will beloyal to you. And you know who got
the job.
Yeah, as I said, I think, youknow, there, there a lot of parallels

(23:21):
between the two of them. I'mcurious what you think is going to
happen. You know, like I said,they're both Netanyahu 75, Trump
78. Obviously at some pointthey're, you know, they leave the
stage. What do you see forIsrael and the in the US when the
two of them are out of the picture?
Well, first of all, I'm hopingthat Netanyahu, because maybe the
government will fall andthere'll be election, there'll be

(23:42):
new elections and it'll be outof office before our conversation
ends. Right. I think that the,as Israelis and I keep telling Israeli
friends of mine, PresidentBiden will be the last American president
who has any true empathyunderstanding of the Holocaust. I
think that's where you need tobegin with that. And you may think
of President Biden what youwant to think of him, but when he

(24:03):
came to Israel two years agoand came to Yad Vashem, the Holocaust
center in Jerusalem and wasliterally on his knee in front of
a Holocaust survivor. That'snot going to happen again. And I
think Israelis are going tohave to adjust to again. You certainly
don't have to agree with me.Did the Democratic Party that, for
instance, I'm older than you,older than you, the Democratic Party

(24:26):
that I grew up on which wasempathetic, sensitive to Israel understanding
of Israel. I'm not sure wherethe Democratic Party goes moving
forward and I think that's anissue. I think also that again, I
certainly don't mean to offendanybody. Netanyahu, when he was now
in Washington refused to meetwith the American Jewish community.
Extraordinary. He's willing tomeet with evangelical leadership

(24:48):
because he has some kind of arelationship with him. But again,
as I tell Israeli friends, nodisrespect to your audience, I think
we Israelis need to be carefulwith that because I'm not sure the
depth of that relationship. Ithink that Republicans who are, they
perceive themselves as proIsrael, a phrase, I have no idea

(25:09):
what that means. View usIsraelis as the vanguard of counterterrorism.
And maybe there's an elementof something, maybe you know better
than I do, anti Muslim there,which I think is highly, highly,
highly, highly, highlyproblematic. And I don't really know
how deep that pro Israel is.So when I listen to certain members
of either of Trump'sadministration or other Republicans

(25:31):
talk about Israel, they'retalking about Netanyahu's Israel,
which is not my Israel.Netanyahu's Israel is illiberal,
right wing, borderline rightwing, right wing with fascist members
of the government. That's notmy Israel. And I tell my Israeli
friends we need to be very,very, very careful of that. Kind
of a bear hug which can havenegative consequences.

(25:54):
In your article that's comingout, you, you said the greatest threat
to Israel is not from without,it's from within. And let me just
quote a paragraph out of whatyour, your article, you said this
is an uncomfortable issue forthe government to tackle as the threat
emanates from the extremeright wing who support, whether cabinet
members or former cabinetministers is essential for Netanyahu's

(26:14):
survival. Their support isconditioned on the government's determinedly
failing to resolve thesedilemmas. What are you saying there?
Well, first of all, when youlook at Jewish terrorism in the west
bank, whether it's burningPalestinian homes, causing terrible
damage to Palestinianproperty, a few years ago, they burned
a Palestinian Palestinianbaby. That's Jewish terrorism. This

(26:37):
government winking a nod withrespect to that, that is highly,
highly problematic. First ofall, the crime, the crime should
be prostituted. The crime isawful. And in a previous article
that was, if I call itcorrectly, mo published by the Hill,
I used the word pogrom todefine describe Jewish terrorism.
Trust me, not, not everybodywas happy with me for all the obvious

(26:58):
reasons, but I really believethat Jews who go into west bank communities
and burn, that's takes me backto, you know, pogroms. Go watch Fiddler
on the Roof and the governmentwinking a nod. More than that, I
think, you know, that we inIsrael have something called administrative
detention, which I don't thinkhas ever been adopted by the US Military.
The US Government. The newdefense minister was utterly and

(27:20):
utterly unqualified for thejob. He's as qualified as, I have
long hair and you know that Idon't have hair. He made the decisions,
announced that there will beno more administrative detentions
of Jews. That's outrageous.Administrative detention of Palestinians?
Yes. No administrativedetention of Jews. That's a double
standard in the legal systemthat no system. No. No rule of law
can allow itself. That'sproblematic when I use the word illiberal

(27:44):
or Jewish terrorism and thewink and the nod. It's exactly what
I meant.
Yeah. You mentioned yourarticle about the politicization
of law enforcement and police,which also seems to be an issue here.
So I've been, as you know,I've been to. I don't know how many
demonstrations. When you go todemonstrations, you get verbal assaulted,

(28:04):
verbally assaulted byNetanyahu supporters. But trust me,
as I think I wrote there,trust me, I give as good as I get.
Right. Being physicallyaccosted by the police when there
was no reason, nojustification, that's different.
And you see, when we use theword police violence in Israel, it's
not like in America. We don'thave shootings, we don't have, you
know, those terrible beatings.We don't have that. But we absolutely

(28:25):
have pretty physical, slash, Idon't know, violent, unnecessarily
physical arrests. I mean, I'vegone toe to toe. My wife has gone
toe to toe with cops. I'vebeen physically, you know, grabbed.
I mean, grabbed by my lapel,my lapel lapels, and thrown 30, 40
yards. It's not fun. And themoment. And I tell you, in this particular

(28:48):
instance, we weredemonstrating where we were allowed
to be, demonstrating againstthe judicial reform, and we were
where we were allowed to be.And then all of a sudden, the police
officer called, the officer incharge closed that area. And I went
up to him for no reasonwhatsoever. And I went up to him
and I said, you know, Mr.Officer, my name is, and I happen
to be a lawyer. And I'mwondering, basis of what, did you
just make the decision youmade? Yeah, I was very, very polite.

(29:09):
I mean, I really. I waspolite. And he said, I am the authority,
in Hebrew. And I said to him,you know, Mr. Officer, those are
probably the scariest wordsthat a member of law enforcement
can say. I am the authority.And I said to him, I remind you,
sir, respectfully, I'm alawyer. In response to which he indeed
grabbed my lapels grabbed meby the lapels and chucked me. My

(29:31):
kid, who's far stronger than Iam, went up to him and said, you
can't do that to my dad. He's,you know, he's older, blah, blah,
blah. And returned the policeofficer grabbed my kid and threw
him further than he had thrownme. That's politicization of the
police. Politicization of thepolice where they are protecting

(29:52):
the government and notprotecting me. No democracy can allow
itself that.
Yeah. And it's unfortunatelyafraid that's, you know, what we're
seeing more and more of here,which is ironic, you know, that,
you know, the far right's theone that assaulted law enforcement
on the, at the Capitol, butstill there's so many in law enforcement
that seem to side with the,with the far right. You know, it

(30:13):
seems like there a lot ofsimilarities between the US And Israel
with this left, right divide.And certainly here in the US Propaganda,
you know, has played a bigrole, you know, in my estimation,
in creating that divide andfomenting it for, you know, for whatever
reason. Is that is propaganda,is that huge a big issue in Israel

(30:35):
as well.
Netanyahu is the master ofvile incitement, 100%. He's good
at three things. He's apathological liar and a good day.
He's the master of incitementand he's the master of not making
any decisions. That's what hedoes. Well, on the other hand, he,
like Trump, has a base that isstuck. It goes with him. You know,

(30:56):
what's the expression? Hell orhigh water. But Netanyahu and his
ilk, as I think I wrote in thearticle, we call it in Hebrew, which
translates into English, intothe propaganda machine run by his
wife and his, who's undergoing to be investigated by the police
and his son, who left Israelunder very suspicious circumstances,
who lives in Miami. They havefour people who. Social media, they

(31:18):
are very, very, very good atit. They have targeted freed hostages,
they have targeted thefamilies of hostages, they have targeted
people like me. We are calledregularly traitors. Right? That's
the most common term is to. Isto call us traitors. But I'll give
you an example. A releasedwoman hostage was standing with a

(31:40):
sign near a highway when a cabdriver got out of the car and physically
accosted this woman who hadbeen a hostage. The mother, she's
a very dominant and veryactive mother of a hostage. Her name
is Einav. Her son is Matan.There are death threats against her
and they speak of her in A waythat you as Americans would never,

(32:02):
ever understand how people cantalk like that. And I also remind
you and your audience, we inIsrael, there is no political correctness,
there's no Kumbaya, there's nosweeteners of society. We are in
an in your face culture in away that makes, have no doubt makes
Americans very, very, veryuncomfortable. But the fact that
the mother of a hostage getsdeath threats is beyond extraordinary.

(32:24):
And it was either today'sMonday, so it was either yesterday
Sunday or today Monday, thatat the Knesset, in the Parliament,
there was a real face to face,not, not a pleasant face to face
between Smutrich, who's ourMinister of Finance, who is an extreme
right winger. He's mass, he'swhat we call in Israel, he's messianic,
which some others might callreligious, nationalist, fascist.

(32:45):
He and his hostage brother, Ithink, got into it. When I tell you
got into it, I mean got intoit. That's what incitement does.
Listen, Mo. It's no fun. It'sno fun to be called a traitor. I
was in our. We live in alittle town outside Jerusalem and
we have a shopping mall. And Iwas in the underground garage parking,
and a guy rolled and I waswearing a shirt calling for the release

(33:06):
of the hostages. And he rolleddown his window. And I won't tell
you on the air what he said tome, but that's the, it's, it's unhinged,
but that comes from somewhere.That unrestrained hate is the result
of Netanyahu's incitement.
Yeah, well, yeah, the samething happens here. I, you know,
I get called a traitor quiteoften. I mean, when I was running

(33:29):
for office back in 2020, Iswear, I think, you know, I spent
25 years serving the countryin uniform and there, you know, quite
a few people ran into, Ithink, would rather sit down and
have a beer with Putin thanwith me because they've been, you
know, led to believe that, youknow, if you're, if you're not on
their team, then you're justinherently evil. And there's nothing,

(33:52):
you know, for a lot of thesefolks, there's nothing you can do
to dissuade them, that they'vebeen misled.
I assume you were tagged atraitor in part because of your decision
with respect to Guantanamo.
Yes, yeah. That, you know, Iwas a coddling terrorist because
I was. Wouldn't condone torture.
And that makes you a traitor, apparently.
In the eyes of, of, of quite afew on the right that, you know,

(34:15):
unless you Adopt their, youknow, the, the ends justify the means
and the rules don't apply,then you're, you're not a good American.
I mean, it's the same thing.You know, I, I served for 20 years
in the IDF. I've been calledtraitor, obviously. Trust me, I've
been called much worse thantraitor. Right, but my kids served,
my wife served. And that stillmakes you a traitor. My wife was

(34:37):
called once a Bolshevik. Andshe went up to the guy and she said
to him, really, really quickquestion for you. Can you tell me
what a Bolshevik is? And hecouldn't spell Bolshevik, but he,
he knew enough to know that hehad heard it somewhere. And because
she was demonstrating, she wasa Bolshevik. But that's how incitement
works.
Yeah, yeah, I see that a lothere. We're particularly on the right.

(34:58):
There are buzzwords that, likeglobalist or socialist that in 99%
of them don't have a clue whatit means, but they know it's something
bad and so they throw it outthere without, you know, any comprehension
of what they're, they thinkthey're saying.
I think what's interesting,the words like globalist, he doesn't
know enough. But that's thecode word for Soros. And there's

(35:20):
a lot of anti Semitism inglobal. When they use the term globalist.
Now whether this guy knowsthat he's, that's anti Semitism or
not is a different question,which is why I take you back to what
I said earlier when I'm toldabout that the Republicans are all
in for Israel. I'm saying.Wait, wait, slow down here. I suggest
caution with that.
Yeah, your article, you talkabout enable, enablers in your book.

(35:44):
We'll talk about your book ina minute. But that's certainly the
central point of your book.But you know, enablers include the
other branches of government,like here, the legislature and the
judicial. The legislative andjudicial branch are supposed to be
a check and balance to, youknow, to avoid an imperial presidency.
But you know, they appear tobe totally subservient to, to Trump

(36:09):
and then the fourth estatenear. The news media seems to have
been whipped into submission.What do you do with, with, you know,
what they're supposed to bethe safeguards or now the enablers
of, of what we're seeing.
So I began with the media andI, you may disagree with me, which
is perfectly fine. What wewould call the mainstream media.

(36:30):
Mainstream media, New YorkTimes, Washington Post, they were
enabling, protecting,enabling, protecting from the public.
President Biden's truecondition and when America saw the
debate, well, maybe the publicwas shocked. I'm not sure that the
media was totally shockedbecause maybe they had seen this
or they had not seen itbecause Biden wasn't interacting

(36:50):
with the press. That'sproblematic. That's putting aside,
if you ask me, his wife was,was Jill Biden, like Edith Wilson
was, was an, was an enabler. Ithink we need to be honest about
that. That's problematic. Whatwe see in Israel is there are, we
have four, we have four TVstations, four news stations. 11,
12, 13, 14, 14 makes Fox Newslook like kindergarten child's. Fox

(37:16):
News is child's play comparedto R14. The other 11, 12, 13 each
have a reporter, or two ofthem have a reporter who 100% is
the courier for Netanyahu. Andthat's very, very problematic when
the media has become thespokesman for a Prime Minister, especially

(37:38):
this Prime Minister. There area number of journalists on the other
hand, who to their credit, arereporting the way reporting should
be reported. But it is, Iagree with you 100% beyond problematic
when the media becomes anenabler, not the enabler, but an
enabler. That's veryproblematic. With respect to, in
Israel, we don't, I mean, ourParliament, the Knesset, is largely

(38:00):
in name only. They don'treally play a role. But as you're
right, as I wrote in thearticle, Netanyahu is surrounded
by who he's surrounded by. Iask friends here, I mean, here being
the United States, I throwthem names, I give them. Tell me,
how do you respond to thisperson? Or in terms of how do you
define this person? Thisperson, this person. And indeed there
are people who I think wouldbe tagged as Trump's enablers. And

(38:21):
I, you, you know better than Ido, at some point, one assumes all,
everything that we'rediscussing will come to, to the,
to the front steps of theUnited States Supreme Court and we'll
see how all that plays out.But in the meantime, if you listen
carefully and watch carefully,as I assume as many, many, many,
many, many people are doing,there is clearly an element of enabling
here. And some of, if you askme, is raises serious questions about

(38:42):
democracy, which is scary, bythe way. That's, that is seriously.
To call it scary as hell is anall time understatement.
Well, I'm sure you've seenwhere, you know, to me, it's ironic,
you know, the, the whole kindof premise of MAGA was that America
first, that we need to lookinternally and quit, you know, get
out of all these internationalengagements and, and focus on, you

(39:05):
know, within our own borders.But now Trump wants to take over
Canada, the Panama Canal,Greenland, and as you mentioned now
turn Gaza into the, to theRiviera. What do you make of all
this?
So, you know, mo, at my age,because remember, I'm much older
than you, you know what youknow and you know what you don't
know. And because my, for now,for all the obvious reasons, my,

(39:27):
my primary focus is, is onIsrael, for all the obvious reasons.
But when I, so I view much ofwhat you're discussing, not to the
extent or not to the depththat I engage with Israel, which
again, for the obviousreasons, what always worries me or
what source of concern for me,whether it's a Democratic president
or Republican president, isthis whole issue which you learned

(39:48):
in law school and I learned inlaw school, which is checks and balances
of separation of powers. Andyou know, again, I see all these
courts issuing TROs. We'll seewhere that goes to in the Israeli
context because of Netanyahu'sfull on evisceration of the rule
of law of the Israeli SupremeCourt. Maybe you could say by comparison
that that raises importantquestions about the undermining of

(40:11):
democracy. And we both knowhow fragile democracy is and anything
that undermines it, whetherit's this era, that area, this president,
that president, in response tothis event, in response to that event,
you know, Lincoln and theCivil War, Roosevelt with the internment
of 120,000 Japanese Americansfor reasons that I think if he gave

(40:32):
Roosevelt a dollar, hewouldn't be able to explain to you
why that, why he did it. Thoseare really, really serious questions
because of the fragility of democracy.
What's been the reaction inIsrael to Trump's proposal for Gaza?
A very interesting question.The initial response was, I think
we would say in English,chuckle, chuckle. But then Israeli
started saying, and this mayirritate particularly people like

(40:54):
you who served in themilitary, people started saying,
you know, United States ofAmerica wants to come to Gaza and,
and, and begin the process ofrebuilding Gaza and having American
forces in Gaza rather thanIsraeli soldiers. You know, welcome.
The only problem with this,with this plan is as far as I can
tell, the President States ofAmerica didn't take into consideration

(41:15):
there are 1.7 million Gazanswho live in Gaza. And I haven't seen
anybody suggest somethingreasonable, rational. No, the Jordanians
are going to take them, theEgyptians are going to take them,
the Irish are going to takethem, the Moroccans are going to
take them, the Saudis aren'tgoing to take them, the Iranians
are going to them. This is,they live in Gaza. And I don't really
know this Riviera Gaza, how itplays out with the fact that there

(41:35):
are 1.7 million people wholive there. But in Israel, there
have been voices that say ifthe United States wants to come in
and rule Gaza, welcome. Withthe understanding that the humanitarian
issue with respect to theGazans needs to be addressed. If
that leads to the release ofthe hostages, I think you'll you
there too. You will see peoplewho will say, you know, hm, interesting.

(41:56):
But again, the 1.7 millionGazans is the issue that, that he
can't keep fobbing off andsaying, well, they'll go here, they'll
go here, they'll go there,they'll go to Turkey, they'll go,
I mean, maybe they'll go toNorth Carolina. That's not going
to happen. That's, I mean,that's just not realistic. So I'm
not sure to what extent this,this plan has been thought out. I
mean, thoroughly thought out.And I saw that, I believe yesterday
during, before the super bowl,after the super bowl, by the, that

(42:17):
game was boring as hell. Ihave to work that in there. I would
suggest to Kansas City to getan offensive line for next year.
I really don't know what thethinking is with respect to the 1.7
million Gaza.
Yeah, it seems like a lot ofTrump's strategy is to, you know,
throw a hundred things againstthe wall and, you know, recognizing
some aren't going to stickbut, you know, hoping that some will

(42:39):
and, and you know, but I thinkthat's correct. I think a lot of
it is not thought through.It's just a notion that occurs to
him and he throws it out thereto see what if it gets any traction.
If it doesn't, he moves on.
You mean like annex in Canada?You know, as I wrote to a friend
in Israel yesterday, Iwouldn't say no to this and no that
I'd say we shall see. I mean,I don't, and I really don't know

(43:01):
because obviously thePresident, States of America and
his advisors don't call AmosGiora. I don't know how they sequence
this, how they implement this,how they go about doing this on a
day in, day out basis. Butwhat's the expression that's been
used, Shock and awe. I thinkthat is a pretty accurate articulation
of his approach at the moment,including Gaza.
You know, we're seeing heredomestically with the dismantling

(43:25):
a lot of Government agencieslike, you know, here in western North
Carolina, we're stillrecovering from Hurricane Helene.
And when Secretary Noem washere over the weekend, it was, you
know, talking about shuttingdown fema. We're also seeing like
National Institute of Health,you know, we have Research Triangle
park where a lot of medicalresearch takes place, being impacted.

(43:47):
But we're also seeinginternationally like pulling out
of the who, the weakening ofNATO. What do you see this, the implications
of the US pulling back, youknow, in the international community.
What. What are theimplications of that?
Highly, highly problematic.The role of the US if that's the
right word, or withdrawnAmerica back to the 1920s, that is

(44:10):
highly problematic. We don'tneed the US as the world's policeman,
but we certainly need a USpresence. And the notion of the US
disengaging from the world, Idon't like this phrase. You and your
listeners will pardon me, thatscares the hell out of me.
Yeah.
By the way, both as anAmerican, you know, I have no hair
but two hats. Both as anIsraeli and as an American, that's.

(44:32):
That is really problematicbecause I think once you. Again,
you know better than me. Onceyou disengage, it's hard to re. Engage
and you know better than I do.The only thing that brought the U.S.
i think the U.S. into WorldWar II was Pearl Harbor. Interesting
question. What happens ifJapan doesn't attack Pearl Harbor?
What is. Would Roosevelt atsome point have totally said to Churchill,

(44:56):
yes, I'm all in. Or is it whatpushed Roosevelt to Churchill? Lend
lease and all that was PearlHarbor. Open question.
And we started out, Imentioned that your grandparents
were both murdered atAuschwitz. You sent me something
this morning about an emailthat you got. Could you talk a little
bit?
It's an extraordinary storyindeed. My grand. My paternal grandparents

(45:17):
were murdered in Auschwitz onMay 26, 1944. I In December was home
in Israel and I got an email.The subject line was my grandfather's
name, which I've never seen inprint. I've seen his name on a memorial
in Hungary and I've seen hisname on his. I found his. What do
you call, property papers thatI found in Hungary. That's right.

(45:39):
I've never seen his name otherthan that. But I saw on an email
his name and I was like, like,what is this? It's 11:30 at night.
And I read an email and it'sextraordinary, extraordinary email
that his books that he hadtaken with him to Auschwitz. Because
I remember when Jews weredeported, like my grandparents, they
were told to take Suitcasesand, and their goods closed because

(46:03):
they were taught, they weretold they're going to resettlement
in the East. I do not knowwhat my grandmother took and I never
knew until this what mygrandfather took. And it turns out
that he brought with him fourbooks. And the way it worked is the
Jews stood in the selectionline with their suitcases, you can
see the pictures. And thenthey were told when they got to the

(46:23):
entrance to the crematorium,which obviously they didn't know
they were going into the gaschamber of the crematorium to leave
the suitcase and they'll pickit up afterwards after being cleaned.
And in that suitcase, inaddition to I don't know what else
he took, by the way, I'venever seen a picture of my grandfather
were four books, at least fourbooks. Those books made their way
from Auschwitz to Nuremberg inGermany to the home of the arch Nazi

(46:48):
ideologue Streicher. And atsome point over the past years, in
Streicher's house in Nurembergwas discovered a private library
of 9,000 books. Anextraordinary institute in Nuremberg
paid for by the Germangovernment has for the past 30 years
sought to find the descendantsof the owners of those 9,000 books.

(47:12):
And it turns out that thereare no words. And they found me in
the following way. In 1981 myfather had filled out forms of Holocaust
survivors at Yad Vashem werethe same place where Biden had gone.
And he wrote his name. Ouroriginal last name is not George,
it's Goldberg. And he wrotehis parents name and he wrote about

(47:32):
the circumstances of when andhow they had been murdered in Auschwitz.
And it's detective work, it'sColombo. The people who, who run
this institute have a team ofliterally, of sleuths, Internet sleuths.
They found the document from1981. They found that my father had
taught at the University ofMichigan. So they went to University
of Michigan website. Theyfound that my father had passed away

(47:55):
in 2015. They found that myfather has a son, me at the University
of Utah. They went online,University of Utah. And that's how
they found me. And todayindeed there's an article about all
this. And I am waiting eagerlyfor the four books to arrive from
Germany. I last week or twoweeks ago signed a restitution contract

(48:16):
that I am the grandson of andthat I will not sell the books that
I intend, you know, to keepthem for ourselves, for family reasons.
I keep getting asked what am Igoing to do with this? Am I going
to write about this? You know,it's at the moment, so overwhelming.
We have a picture of mygrandmother, right. I have nothing
of my paternal grandfatherother than these four books that
are on their way from Germanyto Salt Lake City.

(48:37):
It's pretty incredible.
81 years later, there are nowords. One of the first questions
I asked myself what is theircondition? But I finally, today,
in that article that I sentyou, I finally saw a picture of the
book. And to the naked eye itlooks like the book, at least one
book, is in good shape.Because obviously if not, then you

(48:59):
go to. What is it called? BookRestoration. But it's extraordinary.
It's a pretty neat story.Totally. Speaking of books, you have
a new one coming out calledEnablers across the.
Ages Normalizing the Unimaginable.
The.
The title is not mine. It camefrom a friend of mine who, like me,

(49:21):
a second generation Holocaust,is a great, great, great, great friend
of ours. He has, a matter offact, painted an extraordinary portrait
of my wife at a demonstration.And the. The book is up. The title
is his. To his credit, Iexamined the Enabler through the.
In Israel today, through alsothe lens of the Holocaust, through
my mother's story. And thebook is in the hands of the publisher.

(49:42):
And we're looking forward tothe. You know as well as I do the,
the inevitable redlining,redlining and redlining. But it looks
at, in what I did in the book,as I look at societal enablers in
the Holocaust and in contextof Netanyahu's enablers, I call them
out by name, I explain whythey are enablers. And at the end
of the day, because, you know,as the law professor, the whole point

(50:03):
of this, of this project isto. Is to criminalize enablers. Yes,
there is. We have a law ofimmunity law for members of the Parliament
and so on member of theKnesset. But I view the Enabler as
committing a crime, not amoral crime, but a legal crime. I
think you know that at the LawSchool we established the Bystander
Initiative, which works onbooks, articles, legislative testimonies,

(50:25):
essays, interviews and so on,with the idea of shining a very,
very, very, very bright lighton the enablers and the bystanders.
Because I, you know, I'veconvinced myself that the enabler,
bystander, particularly theenabler, is essential to the perpetrator.
And it is what not. My phraseis from a former research assistant,

(50:46):
the ecosystem of enablingwhich is responsible for. For harm
that needs to be addressed andthe way to address it systemically
rather than tactically is toprosecute the enabler. In addition
to prosecuting the perpetratorand that's the enabler. Going after
the enabler is not in any wayto minimize the harm caused by the,

(51:06):
the perpetrator, but it's tosay there's, there's an additional
actor whose role is criticalto the crime committed.
I look forward to seeing it.And listen, I just want to say thank
you for, for taking some ofyour time and joining us on, on mucu.
It's, it's always good to talkto you and you're, you're a good
man. I'm really proud to haveyou as a friend.

(51:26):
So, you know, it's very, very,very mutual. You know that.
Well, thanks. Professor AmosGuiora from the University of Utah
School of Law. Our guest todayon Muck You!,
This has been Muck You! hostedtoday by Colonel Moe Davis with his
friend and guest, professorand scholar Amos Guiora from Utah.

(51:46):
MUCK You is produced byAmerican Muckrakers. Copyright 2025.
You can learn more @AmericanMucKrakers.com.