January 31, 2025 • 42 mins
The podcast delves into the ongoing political battle against Trumpism, emphasizing the urgent need for unwavering resistance to the threats against American democracy. Speaker A articulates that the fight against Trump is not just a temporary struggle but a long-term commitment, highlighting the Lincoln Project's role in mobilizing opposition to pro-democracy candidates. The discussion shifts to the current political landscape, analyzing the challenges faced by Democrats and the crucial need for effective communication strategies that resonate with voters. Amidst the complexities of modern campaigning, the hosts stress the importance of adapting to social media dynamics and the necessity for Democratic leaders to connect authentically with a diverse electorate. As the episode unfolds, it underscores the significance of winning at all costs, challenging the notion that civility can triumph over the aggressive tactics employed by their political adversaries.
The latest installment of MUC U features an engaging conversation with Rick Wilson, a prominent figure in political commentary, who delves into the ongoing threats posed by Donald Trump and the Republican Party's strategies. Wilson reflects on the evolution of the Lincoln Project, emphasizing their commitment to combatting the authoritarian tendencies that have emerged in American politics. The discussion touches on the organization’s successes in recent elections, where they helped to secure numerous victories for pro-democracy candidates, but also acknowledges the challenges that remain, particularly in light of Trump’s continued influence and the shifting dynamics within the Republican Party. Wilson articulates a palpable urgency in the fight against Trumpism, arguing that complacency is not an option and that the stakes for American democracy are higher than ever. The episode is marked by a candid examination of the political landscape, the importance of resilience in the face of adversity, and a call to action for those who believe in preserving the tenets of representative democracy.
Takeaways:
- The Lincoln Project remains committed to fighting against the ongoing threat posed by Trump and his supporters.
- Despite winning many races in recent elections, the challenge of Democratic internal issues remains significant.
- Trump's ability to mobilize his base and the implications of his potential return to power are concerning for American democracy.
- There is a growing recognition among voters that Trump’s policies may hurt them economically and socially.
- The importance of addressing cultural issues and engaging with disenfranchised voter demographics is paramount for Democrats.
- Future political candidates need to be effective communicators who resonate with diverse voter bases to succeed.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Lincoln Project
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Foreign.
Welcome to MUC U with ourgreat friend Rick Wilson.
This is David Wheeler and myco host, Mo Davis.
Hey guys, how are you?
Hey, good morning, Rick.
It's been a minute.
Good to be back with you.
Hey, good to see you, my friend.
Well, I thought we'd check inwith you.
(00:22):
You know, we've run paralleltracks with you over the last couple
years.
Sure, sure.
Where do you guys stand atthis point?
Where is, where is LincolnProject headed and what are your
thoughts on the next, youknow, the short term future?
Here, look, here's the real,here's the real thing about this.
I follow the Alexei Navalny rule.
You are not allowed to quit.
(00:44):
Trump won an election.
We beat him or helped beat himin 2020.
We won 17 out of 21 races weran in 2022 for the Pro democracy
side.
And, and, and we have, youknow, we, we ended up moving our
numbers right on, right on themoney once again.
(01:05):
In, in this year, actually wepulled out a few more Republican
votes than we did in 2020, butit wasn't enough.
Now that wasn't on somethingthat we could change.
That was on the DemocraticParty's, you know, internal campaign
issues and on some otherthings that, that were happening
out there that we couldn't alter.
(01:25):
But our commitment wasn't,we're going to fight as long as it's
easy.
Our commitment was we weregoing to fight until we stop this
threat to the AmericanRepublic and to representative democracy,
which I think if anything hashappened in the last week, we've
seen that that threat is asreal as we always told people it
was and as pendant and asdangerous as we always told people
(01:48):
it was.
And anybody who wakes up inthe morning and goes, you know, we
don't need to fight againstTrump, we need to all get along.
To put, to put it as mildly asI can is a fucking idiot.
And this is a fight that isgonna, is gonna require people who
don't blink and don't panicand, and don't bow down.
(02:08):
And for good or for good orbad at Lincoln, we don't panic and
we don't bow down.
Started Lincoln Project backin December of 2019.
Did you have any idea that itwas going to continue on this long
or did you think that?
Absolutely.
No, absolutely not.
I did realize on January 6thof 2021 that, that the other team
(02:32):
was never going to leave the fight.
They were going to keeptrying, keep cheating, keep doing
everything they could to gainand retain power and that, and that
it wasn't as easy as beatinghim once.
And, and I knew, and I got alot of shit for it.
I said In December of 21, Isaid, Trump will run again, he will
(02:56):
win the Republican nomination,and we will be right back at this.
And I got, I had people fromthe left who were pissed at me, from
the right who were pissed at me.
Everybody said, oh, no, no,that could never happen.
It's never going to happen.
Oh, Trump's gone, it's over,it's done.
But it wasn't.
And, and we have to be honestabout the fact that, that our system
(03:17):
is not capable of, of a, of aconsistent response to a threat like
Trump.
It, it just, it, we, we, weget fired up about it and, you know,
January of 21, and evenRepublicans are like, no more.
We're done.
This is unacceptable.
We can't have this guy around.
(03:38):
And then we're right back toit with them all bending the knee
by the spring of 23.
And all of these things that,that we've said about Trump, that
he's going to be an autocrat,that he's going to abuse the power
of his office, that he's goingto be a dangerous figure.
(03:58):
None of that's changed.
It's all true.
It's always been true.
He, he is better organizedthis time.
They understand the levers ofpower more, more, more in a more
granular way than they did thelast time.
So our fight goes on and look,our goal right now.
(04:18):
And again, I did not want tohave to keep doing this.
I wanted him to go away.
I want, you got to finish the job.
And so the job is stillongoing and we're still in the fight.
We've, you know, we'refocusing on a big thing right now,
which is fighting Trump onthese nominations and fighting Trump
on these early policy moves isimportant, not just because it's
(04:41):
the right thing to do in theshort term, but it's important because
as we go forward, we've got tolower Trump's approval rating as
much as we can between now andthe end of this year, get it down
into the 30s so that we gointo the fight in 26 with the ability
to take back the House.
What do you think happens?
(05:02):
I mean, at some point, youknow, Trump's 78, he's fatty.
You know, he's not going to bearound forever.
It seems to me like he's aunique personality, this, able to,
you know, hold this tag.
What happens when he does?
I will say this, and I thinkpeople should take some hope from
this and and the, the, the, Iwrote about this this morning on
(05:22):
my substack about Ron DeSantisand the analogy I gave.
It's easy to look at, atauthoritarians and bullies throughout
political, modern political history.
When they are strong, theylook really strong.
But sometime at some point,they all break in the end.
(05:44):
So In Florida, Ron DeSantis,before he ran for president, was
an incredibly powerful governor.
He, he, I ruled with an ironfist in the state.
Okay?
It was, it was remarkable howmuch the legislature would do for
Ron DeSantis.
Sided with him in every fight,did whatever he wanted all the time.
(06:05):
He runs for president and itgot even more exaggerated.
And they, they were passingbills so that he could run on them.
He was, they were, they were,they were letting him run roughshod
over all of their legislativepriorities and wouldn't say a word.
And then this week he startsplanning to run for president again
(06:26):
in 2028.
And everyone knows it in theFlorida politics system and that
he came to them and said, Ineed you to do these immigration
things.
That made Trump's immigrationstuff look like, look like nothing.
That made Trump's immigrationstuff look like a, like a love tap.
It was so crazy and so overthe top that the Florida House, which
(06:49):
is more MAGA than MikeJohnson's caucus, by the way, and
the Florida Senate said, no,Nope, fuck you.
And DeSantis has been meltingdown in real time for the last three
days because of that.
It's a real lesson that whenTrump, when Trump's numbers right
now are at 45, his approvalsat 45, it's going to drop.
(07:11):
That number will go down.
He will continue to havefailures as he's having right now.
Look, a lot of his peopleright now are very unhappy.
Why are they unhappy?
They're unhappy because DonaldTrump has, has absolutely started
to hurt his own people.
(07:33):
When you're talking aboutcutting veterans health care, when
you're talking about cuttingsuicide hotlines, when you're talking
about cutting snap, whenyou're talking about cutting disability,
when you're talking aboutwrecking the economy with either
tariffs or these massdeportations, people are slow, but
finally figuring out they'vebeen played.
This is as good as it ever gets.
(07:55):
So as he starts to show, youknow, the, the collapse of his political
power draining out as everysecond term president does.
Bush dropped 14 points afterhe announced he was going to privatize
Social Security.
That, that doesn't, thesethings don't work well.
But as that starts tocollapse, he's going to have More
(08:16):
and more trouble intimidatingpeople that he's the future.
Now, do I think they're goingto have a sort of gigantic food fight
in 2028?
Absolutely.
Do I think that Trump's goingto try to plan some dynastic BS where
Don Jr runs?
I also think that may be the case.
He clearly is a, is a, is monarchy.
(08:38):
Curious.
Yeah, I just can't.
It's hard to imagine though,Junior stepping into his shoes.
Yeah.
Oh, it is, it looks at the.
Stones to do it.
Trump has a unique set of, ofpredicates about him.
The, the, the 40 year imagecampaign to, to make him seem like
he's a great business leader.
15 years on the Apprenticewhere millions of Americans watched
(09:01):
him play a character on a gameshow of being a strong business leader
and strong negotiator.
All of it, all of it has avery, you know, bespoke kind of effect
on who, how people think about Trump.
(09:22):
And I don't, and Junior doesnot have that.
But they will try for thisdynastic play.
And if you're in a, if you'rein a fight in 2028 with a, with a
field of 15 people or 20people, Don Jr doesn't have to win
(09:43):
a majority.
All he has to win is, youknow, 10, 15, 20%.
Do you really think Juniorwould run?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And is he viable even in theRepublican Party or in the.
Look, the Trump name is apowerful force in, in, in this world.
(10:06):
The Trump name is a verypowerful, very powerful tool.
Yeah, I know, but he, ButJunior is such a idiot.
Yeah, but Donald Trump's notexactly an intellectual, a towering
intellectual figure either.
But look, I, I think it's allright now, very much, you know, a
(10:27):
forward facing problem.
We don't know what the worldlooks like in, in four, in three
years, if he gets in trade,wars, all these things, if the economy
has an externality, either amarket crash or something else happens,
if AI starts to lead tomillions of jobs going away very
quickly, which it certainlycould, all of those things could
(10:51):
lead to a political climatewhere people go, okay, we gave this
a shot, we're done now.
But we don't know that yet.
We just don't know that yet.
And what about in Florida?
Desantis is term limited.
Who's gonna fill the magusshoes there?
(11:11):
Well, look, you've got, you'vegot Matt Gates wants to be governor.
You've got Byron Donalds, themember of Congress from southwest
Florida wants to be governor.
You've got Wilton Simpson, thecurrent agriculture Commissioner,
which is a big powerful job inFlorida, wants to be governor.
You've got Casey DeSantiswants to be governor.
There are a lot of.
(11:33):
There are a lot of people who.
There are a lot of people whowant that job.
It is the third most power,the third largest state in the country.
And, and in all of this, youknow, you're going to see the same
thing.
They're going to look to Trumpfor a lead on who should be the one,
just as they did when DeSantis ran.
(11:53):
I mean, Matt Gaetz is a veryclever politician, whether you like
him or not.
He's a, he's a fuckingdegenerate, but he's a clever politician.
Byron Donalds is very.
The Fox crowd in some wayswith like the Rupert Murdoch primary
will decide a lot of this racein a lot of ways.
But, but who would you putyour money on right now?
(12:14):
Byron Donalds.
Yeah, that's interesting because.
That's interesting because Moran against, I think he's position.
Yeah, Madison.
He's positioning himself forDonaldson's seat, I think.
Yeah, he's down there now andI think that is definitely a, a real
(12:35):
possibility that he's going tomake that run.
You know, it's funny, he, youknow, he has spilled the beans about
the Republican cocaine orgieswhen he was up on Capitol Hill and.
Yep, it's like the Matt Gates thing.
You know, he may be one of thefew times in his life Cawthorn was
telling the truth.
Yeah, Madison is a.
(12:55):
Madison is a perfect examplethat the disqualifying thing, the
things that would disqualifyanyone in the eyes of MAGA would
are campaign assets whenthey're on the list of, of people
that they like and they favor.
Yeah.
You know, I find itinteresting, you know, the Lincoln
Project.
I know it's.
I mean, you're not like acountry club conservative.
(13:18):
You were, you know, in thetrenches, you know, back in the day.
And also on your board, yougot Joe Trippy, you know, who helped
my, my campaign.
Yeah, yeah.
Certainly, you know, on theopposite, Joe.
Was a damn warrior, man.
I love him.
He is like, damn, you two guys.
Working together, which arelike kind of the both ends of the
spectrum, you know, it kind ofmakes me hopeful that there, you
(13:42):
know, there are people on bothsides that are concerned about democracy
and right and wrong and not somuch about having an R D next to
your name.
That's, that's.
Look, that is exactly how weapproach this is, is if you wake
up every day and you say, wecan disagree on policy.
We can have fights all daylong about, about, about policy,
(14:05):
but we've got to protect this,the rule of law, the Constitution,
the, the, the, the fundamentalthings that make America possible.
If you're not fighting thatfight every day, then, then you know,
the country will be inmeaningful danger as we go forward.
(14:26):
Nobody's going to have a,nobody's going to look at America
and say that is a great country.
That is, that is the kind ofcountry we want to emulate.
If we are in a world where, ifwe're in a world where the, the rule
of law doesn't exist, if we'rein a world where the President is
a king, those things arereally tough for people to, to, to,
(14:50):
to grapple with when they,when they're stuck in their old political
lane that they were in for generations.
And look, Stuart Stevens andI, you know, we fought for and elected
Republican governors andsenators and congressmen and presidents
and everything else.
And Joe did the same thing onthe Democratic side.
But we all have an agreementthat, that the danger we face right
(15:14):
now is so, so stark and so,so, so immediate that we can't, we
can't let anything stand inthe way of, of waging a fight against
people who would destroy thethings that make a, that make a modern
Western democracy possible.
What do we, you know, I lookedat it, I see like you and Joe Trippy
(15:35):
working together.
You know, I see, you know,Taylor Swift and Dick Cheney on the
same side, you know.
Right.
I thought going into theelection in November that, you know,
when people that diverse areon the same team, that there's a
real possibility of winning.
And what do we do wrong?
Well, look, there, there's,there are a couple of little things
(15:59):
and a couple of big things.
The big thing was that Bidenwas still the functional incumbent
and he was president during atime of terrible economic stress
and the voters didn't forgive him.
The Democrats failed.
The Democrats thought thatthey would propose responses to,
to inflation and job loss inthe post Covid era just by saying,
(16:23):
we're going to do the rightthing and we're going to pass these
bills to inflation reduction,Infrastructure Pact act, all these
other things that were good,they were good things to do, but
they didn't spend the periodof time they needed blaming Donald
Trump for those things that happened.
So Trump got to skate for thefirst year of the campaign.
(16:45):
Biden, you know, we're gonna,we're gonna all talk about this for
a long time.
He should not have run again.
We were not it was not our jobat Lincoln to tell the Democrats
who to pick for their nominee,but he should not have run.
Again, the debate drove down his.
I mean, that, that, that thenled to this period of, of time where
(17:09):
Trump could build and buildand build.
Harris was a fine campaignerand a good candidate.
I don't, I don't, I'm notgoing to hear from people, oh, she
was a terrible candidate.
She was a fine candidate.
She had to put together acampaign in very short time.
It wasn't today's campaign.
In some ways, it was a greatcampaign built by a bunch of guys
(17:29):
who'd elected Barack Obama,who are all very smart guys, but
it didn't efficientlyunderstand the depth of the disinformation
ecosystem on the right.
And that disinformationecosystem is powerful, permanent,
dangerous, and something thatwe are not as a country, that we
(17:52):
are not as a country ready toface up to that problem.
And we need to, we've got toget that under control.
We've got to get our headstogether on what it means to be a
nation where 50% of thepopulation believes in this catalog
of imaginary demons.
Those things have got to befaced and faced quickly.
(18:13):
And if we don't, we're goingto have the same thing again.
There were also some culturethings that divided the country that
Harris's campaign could notgrapple with appropriately.
And the number one thing wasthe trans issue.
And that trans issue, we knewit was causing a problem, not because
(18:36):
of anything Harris did, butbecause we saw what was happening
with Republicans.
They were spending money onanti trans ads everywhere in state
Senate races, in state Houseraces, in local school board races.
And Trump was spending tens ofmillions of dollars a week on the,
(18:56):
on the trans ad because it was working.
The reason it was working, youknew it was working because they
were spending the money.
Republicans do not spend moneyon things that don't work.
So the, the difficulty, thedifficulty of, of the Harris campaign
and Future Ford grappling withthat issue is one that disconnected
(19:19):
them from a lot of people.
Young white men 18 to 40,young black men 18 to 30, young Hispanic
men 18 to 30.
They were all moved by that issue.
They are uncomfortable with it.
They didn't like it.
They.
And whether that's good or badis irrelevant.
It's real.
(19:40):
It's what, it's what is reallyhappening in their, in their heads.
So we're, we're in a, we're ina situation where, you know, if you
miss cultural cues and theymissed the cultural cue on that they
missed the cultural cue on, onsome of the immigration language.
(20:02):
Harris almost got there.
She started talking aboutbeing tougher on the border than
Trump, and it was working.
But they never had the juicebehind it to, to, to, to outweigh
Trump on immigration becausehe could always go, try to go further
on it.
So that's, that's, that's, Ithink that's sort of the explanation.
And look, a lot of Democraticvoters were pissed off at, at Harris
(20:26):
over Gaza and Palestine and,and Hamas and Israel who stayed home.
We could have won Michigan ifthey had not stayed home or voted
for Jill Stein.
Like idiots a lot of them were.
There were a lot ofdisgruntled Democrats who, you know,
wanted their people, their person.
(20:46):
Like the, you know, JoshShapiro's people were never thrilled
with Harris.
And, you know, I, I, we thinkwe could have done better in Pennsylvania
maybe if it was Josh Shapiro,who knows?
But they should have beenmaking it a full court press and,
and a lot of Democratic votersjust didn't show up.
And that's on them.
You're absolutely right in it.
And I think, you know, Mo andI tried to run tough campaigns here
(21:09):
in North Carolina.
Yeah.
Mine for the state Senate andMoe's for Congress.
And the Democrats are scaredshitless to say anything bad about
the other guy.
Yep.
And where does that come from?
And okay, I will tell you there.
I mean, you've been aroundthis game a long time, my friend.
I will tell you, I will tell you.
One of the reasons they don'tdo that is their pollsters tell them
(21:33):
over and over again.
The, the, the American peoplewant us to get along and work on
solutions together.
People tell you that in focus groups.
It's a lie.
It's insane.
It doesn't work.
And the Democrats have takenthat bait.
And the Republicans will playthat game with them all the time.
(21:55):
You saw it today.
Ron Johnson during RFK Jr'shearing was like, can't we just all
work to make America healthier?
And shouldn't we all beworking together?
And it's just a total, it's atotal scam.
It's a scam from top to bottom.
And these people on theDemocratic side, they want to believe
(22:16):
in the best in people.
And unfortunately, thecounterparty in this equation believes
in one thing, and that's winning.
That's right.
And Democrats, as Mo pointsout, would rather go sit in a cafe
and have chamomile tea thanwin sometimes.
Listen, I say this to people a lot.
(22:37):
When you grow up in theRepublican Party, In Republican politics,
as a young consultant, as ayoung operative, you get two lessons
right away.
Lesson number one, Just win, baby.
Do whatever it takes to win.
Lesson number two, Stay on message.
If you have an issue withlesson number one, refer to lesson
(22:59):
number two.
If you have an issue withlesson number two, refer to lesson
number one.
Exactly.
That is how it works in theRepublican system.
And people don't have to likeit, but it's what has made them effective
for decades in campaigning.
Yeah, and I also think this adult.
We gotta be the adults in the room.
(23:19):
And if we lose, who cares?
Yeah.
No, my God, we got to get overthat, man.
Look, it is for all themarbles now, guys, this is.
This is for.
For.
This is the whole ball game Now.
None of this.
None of this makes any sense.
If you look at it.
If you look at it with.
With the existential challenge of.
(23:42):
Of what Trump represents right now.
And if you don't understand asa political operative, as a campaign
operative, that you are goingto lose the entire ball game if you
let these people run roughshodover you and you don't go out and
win elections no matter whatit takes.
Listen, there's 20 Republicansright now who went out there and
(24:03):
said, oh, I'll never vote forProject 2025.
I'm not going to vote to ban abortion.
I'm not going to guess what.
They were lying.
Every one of them was lying.
And so right now, these peopleare in.
Are in Congress.
And it goes back to a rule Ilearned years ago.
Guy says, I don't want to runthese negative ads.
(24:24):
They're so terrible, they'reso cruel.
I'm embarrassed by them.
And the consultant in questionsaid, all right.
So on election day, the guysays, it makes me feel like a scumbag.
And so the consultant said,all right, so on election day, you
want to wake up the next day,do you want to be the honorable scumbag
or just a scumbag?
(24:45):
Because do you want to win or not?
And winning matters.
Winning is the big shit.
Winning is the big deal.
Pretending that you're.
That you're some virtuous,like, pious person who.
Who's above negativecampaigning and above tearing the
bark off of people the hellout of here.
You know, Democrats arelistening to you.
(25:07):
You know, David and I downhere in North Carolina in the congressional
race, we want to get rid ofCawthorn because he was just horrib.
Terrible, terrible piece of shit.
Yeah.
So, you know, the numbers areagainst us.
So what we encourage people todo is to register as independent.
And then you could vote in theRepublican primary and get the least
worst of the, of the living.
(25:27):
Right.
And then the Democrat.
And then the Democrats said,oh, my God, you're, you're making
a game of this.
You're gaming the system.
And it's like, you know, we'replaying the rules.
Allow it.
We're not saying break the law.
Right.
We got to use the rules to our advantage.
And that's the correct, thatis the correct answer.
If the rules, if the rulespresent an advantage for you, use
the rules to your advantage.
(25:48):
Don't pretend that, thatyou're, that some sort of virtue
in your life will prevent youfrom winning.
You want to win, you got to win.
You want to, you want to dothis, you got to do this.
And there was, just for youredification, post election, there
was a professor that showedthat we moved about 3500 votes.
(26:10):
Right.
And the margin on that racewas 1400.
Sure.
And the Democrats are stillpissed, though, that we did.
Is it, is.
There is, there is nothing,there's nothing I can say to people
in the Democratic process toexpress to them more clearly how
(26:32):
much they, the Republicanculture is willing to go out and
say what needs to be said anddo what needs to be done to win.
Winning is what matters to them.
If you don't want to win, thenyou're not going to win.
That's a, that's a prettyserious, you know, and, and simple
(26:53):
thing to understand.
This is a simple equation.
Win or lose, up or down, goodor bad.
If you don't want to win,you're going to, you're.
There are plenty of ways notto win.
For people who don't want towin, there are plenty of ways for
them to say, I'm too good for this.
I'm too, I'm too, I'm too kindto say these bad things.
I'm too, I'm too principled torun this negative campaign.
(27:14):
Fuck off.
Win or don't.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Go ahead, Mo.
Yeah, Rick, I'm hoping theLincoln Project Project will be here
in North Carolina in 2026.
We've got, you know, TomTellis is up.
Yep.
Roy Cooper, our governor wasterm limited.
Yep.
You know, and Cooper won twicein North Carolina on the same ticket
that Trump won.
(27:35):
So we're.
Yeah.
North Carolina, North Carolinais not, is, is, is.
It is still a truly purple state.
There are some very redaspects of North Carolina.
There are, there are, but thedemography and the geography of the
state still means Democratscan compete and win there.
(27:56):
And I think they should bereally looking at North Carolina
with a sense of, of, you know,being a national model.
In some ways, they should wantto be a national model for how Democrats
can win, even in rural areas.
And it's not just policy, it's culture.
It's not just, it's not justpromising to pass Bill X or bill
(28:17):
Y.
It's promising to listen toeverybody and, and to not reject
the things that are that, thatthe Republican Party has weaponized
so cleverly with its base.
You know, Democrats who cantalk about their faith have about
a 60 chance, better chance ofwinning a contested race than otherwise.
(28:40):
That's right.
It, it is something that,that, that a lot of Democrats are
not comfortable with.
They don't want to do it.
They're like, I could offend aMuslim constituent, I could offend
a Jewish constituent, I couldoffend a Catholic constituent.
Talking about your faith andyour values is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
And Democrats are sold totheir, to the Republicans.
(29:01):
They sell to their base allthe time.
Democrats are Satanists,pedophiles, weirdos, academics, intellectuals,
arrogant elite.
Yeah.
And Democrats, we've got tofigure out a way to turn out African
American voters again.
I mean, we've, that's wherewe're losing it.
Listen, I here with a verywell known Democratic consultant
(29:25):
and I got this, like, don'tpresume you know what African Americans
are going to do.
You're a Republican, this and that.
I'm like, you guys really needto focus on the fact that you have
a meaningful chance of losingAfrican American men because they're
not with you on a bunch ofthings now.
(29:48):
I mean, I, I had aconversation the other day with a,
with a Democratic member ofCongress who called me and said,
you know about guns, you know,gun stuff, gun politics.
And she said, in my district,I'm hearing from a lot of Hispanic
women and African Americanwomen who are now buying guns in
their, their.
And they're.
Because they feel unsafe, Mike.
(30:09):
Yeah, because it's a culturalthing now.
All the black and white thingswe used to think that people automatically
did because they were black orHispanic or female, those are all
changing now.
And they're changing really,really rapidly.
I just think it's importantwe, we not.
If we ignore African Americanmen, the signal they're sending,
we're going to lose them andthey're going to lose them as a majority.
(30:31):
Yeah.
Rick, you think one of thethings that really, the moment.
There are a lot of thingsTrump's doing that concerns me.
But one that's kind of at thetop of the list is what's going on
with Mark Milley.
Unbelievable.
How do you see this ending?
Very, very badly.
I have to be.
I have to be honest.
I admire General Millietremendously, but I think they're.
(30:52):
The effect that they're.
They're going to try to makean example of him.
They're going to try to make.
They're going to try to.
They've taken a securitydetail away, they're going to try
to put him in danger, they'regoing to try to publicly humiliate
him.
And to be honest, they'regoing to succeed at making him into
a demon for their people,making him into a criminal for their
(31:16):
people.
It is repulsive.
It is repugnant.
It is disgusting.
But look, I think GeneralMilley needs to, in this case, like,
run to the sound of the guns.
If he thinks he can hide fromthis fight, I think that's wrong.
And lawyer the fight alone, Ithink that's wrong.
(31:38):
I think he needs to go outthere and just call it like it is
and not, not tolerate thebullshit from these people, to own
that what he did and to saywhat he did.
Because Trump is a bully andTrump's not good at people fighting
back against him.
I think Milley has theopportunity to do that and frankly,
(31:59):
you know, become sort of afigure that, that, that.
Look, we know Mark Milley, butmost people don't know Mark Milley.
I think it's important that hehave this fight in public, and the
louder and more public it is,the harder it is for Trump to fuck
him.
Exactly.
Do you think he'll do it?
I'm encouraging it.
(32:20):
Okay, good, good.
All right.
So we talked about Trump.
We've talked about the past.
Let's talk about the current situation.
And then I've got one morequestion, and I'll turn it over to
MO and then we'll call it a day.
Okay, so what's the worst casescenario you see in the next.
We'll say in the next year for America.
(32:45):
Trump declares a state ofemergency, declares some sort of
sweeping new executive powersto protect American sovereignty from
some imaginary terrorist orimaginary immigrant attack, and uses
Cash Patel and Pam Bondi atthe FBI and doj, respectively, to
(33:07):
deploy federal prosecutionsand federal arrests against his political
opponents.
That's, that's, that's prettyhigh on America not being America
much longer.
Right.
And we had Pamela Hemphill on earlier.
She's talking about plan B.
(33:28):
Are you aware of this I have.
I talked to Pamela today, but not.
About plan D.
Well, about the fact they wantto set up their own tribunals.
Yes, they.
They.
There will be.
That will happen on the.
On the.
On the.
On the January 6th matter in particular.
They're going to try to docitizens arrests of Liz Cheney and
(33:49):
whatnot.
And I think it is a very.
I.
I don't think.
I know.
It is a very dangerous worldwe'll be living in as they do that.
All right, well, if you needany assistance with what Guantanamo
Bay is like, I'm sure Monkwill tell you, having been the chief
(34:10):
prosecutor there.
Been there, done that.
Been there, done that.
Right.
Yeah, I guess that's where Imet Desantis.
I mean, he.
Right.
He was there briefly.
We overlapped.
He was a peon.
It never occurred to me when Imet him back then that he'd be where
he is today.
You know, who on theDemocratic side of you do you think
can hit back, do you think hasthe balls to take on these in a way
(34:34):
that has any effect?
Now, Nome is a good guy, butisn't he kind of Kamala Harris times
two?
Yeah.
Look, Gavin is.
Gavin is a charming individualwho will get his head caved in if
he runs for president.
California is a differentplace than it was in the heart and
(34:55):
mind of the American peoplesince Ronald Reagan ran for president.
It's a very different place.
A lot of the things that theydo in California are disqualifying.
Are disqualifying for a lot ofvoters in the country.
So I don't think Nome is the guy.
(35:15):
I would look for people whoare better on social media.
I look for people who are unafraid.
So it's aoc, it's JamieRaskin, it's Eric Swalwell, it's
Jared Moskowitz.
You want to fight this fightwhere the fight is happening, and
that is not in the oldtraditional, like, let's go on Meet
the Press and talk it out.
I think you've got to go outand have a real fight.
(35:40):
A real fight in.
In this.
In this space that.
That is fought, like I said,on that territory.
On that.
On that.
On that.
That terrain of social media and.
And podcasting and everything else.
Right.
All right, Rick.
But she didn't ask thequestion who.
(36:01):
Who is.
Who's somebody you think cando that?
Well, look, I mean, forpresident, we got a lot of choices
in that.
Like, we got a lot of choices.
It's.
It's too early for that.
I'm not going to pick horsesat this point.
But, you know, like I willtell you, there are plenty of people
who are tremendously impressive.
You know, Gretchen Whitmercomes to mind, Shapiro comes to mind,
(36:25):
and some other folks that,that are sort of dark horses out
there.
Andy Bashir, impressive ascould be.
A lot of these people willshake out in the next couple years.
They'll look at it, they'lldecide if they can or can't or should
or shouldn't do it.
But it is going to be, it isgoing to be important to have somebody
who connects with America, whocommunicates with America in a way
(36:47):
that, that works.
I mean, I had one of thebiggest Democratic donors in the
country.
I mean, in the top, top fivefor sure.
Ask me what do we need next time?
Who is it that we need fornext time?
Sort of your question.
I said, I don't know who it isyet, but I know what it is.
(37:08):
It's a brilliant communicator.
It's somebody from the Midwestor the south, and it's, it's a veteran.
And those three thingstogether matter more than policy
or, or can they, can they goin the room, in a, in a room in Hollywood
or New York or Boston orSeattle and make people happy about
(37:31):
their ideological predicates?
You need a winner.
You need somebody who feelslike, sounds like, looks like, walks
like, talks like a winner.
And, and that is the real challenge.
And, and the other part of thechallenge is of course, keeping this
from becoming a third Trumpterm next time around, which is a
constitutional fight.
(37:51):
That is, that is one that I,I, I both dread and anticipate.
What about Mark Cuban?
I think the absolute world ofMark Cuban, I think he is a guy who,
you know, it's like MarkCuban's abilities to communicate
(38:15):
and to actually implementreform like his Cost Plus Drugs company
take on a hard problem, solvethe hard problem, make life better
for people.
Holy shit.
That's what I want, a president.
I think as an outside force, aperson like Mark Cuban or Mark himself
would be a very interesting, avery interesting play.
(38:38):
And, and look, he's not afraidto go mix it up either.
He's not a go, not afraid togo talk to people that, he's not
afraid to go talk to people onthe right, on the left.
He's not afraid to go jumpinto the pool.
And I think that's really important.
And he, and he doesn't havethe gene, from what I can tell.
(38:58):
You know, he really doesn't.
And, and I like the fact thathe he's affable, he's friendly, he's
a, he's a good dude.
You're talking aboutcommunication, and I guess that's,
to me, one of the challengeswe're really facing is now that,
you know, the right has kindof taken over social media.
And I follow you on Twitterand I see you, you know, going toe
(39:20):
to toe on there, and I'd beremiss if I didn't mention that my
wife is one of your biggest fans.
I'd be eating baloneysandwiches the rest of the week if
I didn't get that in there.
But, you know, the rightstaken over social media, they've,
you know, they've beaten themainstream media into submission.
So communicating is gettingharder and harder for folks on the
(39:43):
center in the, in the left.
It is.
How do we, how do we punchthrough this?
Look, social media is still aviable area of, of engagement and
communication.
There are a lot of, you've gotto work a lot of platforms now that
you can't just be on Twitteror just be on Facebook or just be
on Insta.
You kind of have to play thewhole field.
(40:06):
And it's exhausting becauseI'm like, oh, I got to post this
on threads and on blue sky andon Twitter and on it.
All of that stuff.
You know, you, you can't, youcan't walk away from social media
now.
But the, the, the, thetraditional press is increasingly,
(40:28):
they've increasinglycapitulated to Trump, whether de
facto or de jure, and it's not pretty.
And it's harder and harder tosay, oh, I should definitely invest,
you know, all this time topitch a story to CNN when they fire
their best, their, their,their best news anchor in the day
(40:48):
part and send him, tell himhe's going to be on the midnight
shift because he has offended Trump.
You know, it's, it's, it's atough, the, the media landscape is
tough.
The disinformation aspect ofit is really tough.
And we've got to be cognizantof the fact that half of America
believes a lot of stuff thatis not true.
(41:09):
They believe it because RupertMurdoch and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon
Musk built systems that tellthem that, that they're being, that
they're living in a dark worldwhere all the immigrants are trying
to kill them and, you know,everyone's a Satanist and whatnot.
It's a really, it's a toughassignment, honestly.
(41:30):
It's, it's, it's a problemthat's above my pay grade, unfortunately
or fortunately.
Rick, thank you so much foryour time.
You're a terrific man and agreat American.
Thank you, guys.
I appreciate that so much.
And.
And I appreciate both of youfor the hard work you're doing up
in in one of my favorite partsof the universe.
I will talk to you guys again soon.
Thanks, Rick.
(41:52):
This has been Muck you, hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David Wheeler.
Muck you is produced byAmerican muckrakers.
Copyright tonight, 2025.
You can learn more about usand donate to support our work@AmericanMuckrakers.com.
Foreign.
Welcome to MUC U with ourgreat friend Rick Wilson.
This is David Wheeler and myco host, Mo Davis.
Hey guys, how are you?
Hey, good morning, Rick.
It's been a minute.
Good to be back with you.
Hey, good to see you, my friend.
Well, I thought we'd check inwith you.
(00:22):
You know, we've run paralleltracks with you over the last couple
years.
Sure, sure.
Where do you guys stand atthis point?
Where is, where is LincolnProject headed and what are your
thoughts on the next, youknow, the short term future?
Here, look, here's the real,here's the real thing about this.
I follow the Alexei Navalny rule.
You are not allowed to quit.
(00:44):
Trump won an election.
We beat him or helped beat himin 2020.
We won 17 out of 21 races weran in 2022 for the Pro democracy
side.
And, and, and we have, youknow, we, we ended up moving our
numbers right on, right on themoney once again.
(01:05):
In, in this year, actually wepulled out a few more Republican
votes than we did in 2020, butit wasn't enough.
Now that wasn't on somethingthat we could change.
That was on the DemocraticParty's, you know, internal campaign
issues and on some otherthings that, that were happening
out there that we couldn't alter.
(01:25):
But our commitment wasn't,we're going to fight as long as it's
easy.
Our commitment was we weregoing to fight until we stop this
threat to the AmericanRepublic and to representative democracy,
which I think if anything hashappened in the last week, we've
seen that that threat is asreal as we always told people it
was and as pendant and asdangerous as we always told people
(01:48):
it was.
And anybody who wakes up inthe morning and goes, you know, we
don't need to fight againstTrump, we need to all get along.
To put, to put it as mildly asI can is a fucking idiot.
And this is a fight that isgonna, is gonna require people who
don't blink and don't panicand, and don't bow down.
(02:08):
And for good or for good orbad at Lincoln, we don't panic and
we don't bow down.
Started Lincoln Project backin December of 2019.
Did you have any idea that itwas going to continue on this long
or did you think that?
Absolutely.
No, absolutely not.
I did realize on January 6thof 2021 that, that the other team
(02:32):
was never going to leave the fight.
They were going to keeptrying, keep cheating, keep doing
everything they could to gainand retain power and that, and that
it wasn't as easy as beatinghim once.
And, and I knew, and I got alot of shit for it.
I said In December of 21, Isaid, Trump will run again, he will
(02:56):
win the Republican nomination,and we will be right back at this.
And I got, I had people fromthe left who were pissed at me, from
the right who were pissed at me.
Everybody said, oh, no, no,that could never happen.
It's never going to happen.
Oh, Trump's gone, it's over,it's done.
But it wasn't.
And, and we have to be honestabout the fact that, that our system
(03:17):
is not capable of, of a, of aconsistent response to a threat like
Trump.
It, it just, it, we, we, weget fired up about it and, you know,
January of 21, and evenRepublicans are like, no more.
We're done.
This is unacceptable.
We can't have this guy around.
(03:38):
And then we're right back toit with them all bending the knee
by the spring of 23.
And all of these things that,that we've said about Trump, that
he's going to be an autocrat,that he's going to abuse the power
of his office, that he's goingto be a dangerous figure.
(03:58):
None of that's changed.
It's all true.
It's always been true.
He, he is better organizedthis time.
They understand the levers ofpower more, more, more in a more
granular way than they did thelast time.
So our fight goes on and look,our goal right now.
(04:18):
And again, I did not want tohave to keep doing this.
I wanted him to go away.
I want, you got to finish the job.
And so the job is stillongoing and we're still in the fight.
We've, you know, we'refocusing on a big thing right now,
which is fighting Trump onthese nominations and fighting Trump
on these early policy moves isimportant, not just because it's
(04:41):
the right thing to do in theshort term, but it's important because
as we go forward, we've got tolower Trump's approval rating as
much as we can between now andthe end of this year, get it down
into the 30s so that we gointo the fight in 26 with the ability
to take back the House.
What do you think happens?
(05:02):
I mean, at some point, youknow, Trump's 78, he's fatty.
You know, he's not going to bearound forever.
It seems to me like he's aunique personality, this, able to,
you know, hold this tag.
What happens when he does?
I will say this, and I thinkpeople should take some hope from
this and and the, the, the, Iwrote about this this morning on
(05:22):
my substack about Ron DeSantisand the analogy I gave.
It's easy to look at, atauthoritarians and bullies throughout
political, modern political history.
When they are strong, theylook really strong.
But sometime at some point,they all break in the end.
(05:44):
So In Florida, Ron DeSantis,before he ran for president, was
an incredibly powerful governor.
He, he, I ruled with an ironfist in the state.
Okay?
It was, it was remarkable howmuch the legislature would do for
Ron DeSantis.
Sided with him in every fight,did whatever he wanted all the time.
(06:05):
He runs for president and itgot even more exaggerated.
And they, they were passingbills so that he could run on them.
He was, they were, they were,they were letting him run roughshod
over all of their legislativepriorities and wouldn't say a word.
And then this week he startsplanning to run for president again
(06:26):
in 2028.
And everyone knows it in theFlorida politics system and that
he came to them and said, Ineed you to do these immigration
things.
That made Trump's immigrationstuff look like, look like nothing.
That made Trump's immigrationstuff look like a, like a love tap.
It was so crazy and so overthe top that the Florida House, which
(06:49):
is more MAGA than MikeJohnson's caucus, by the way, and
the Florida Senate said, no,Nope, fuck you.
And DeSantis has been meltingdown in real time for the last three
days because of that.
It's a real lesson that whenTrump, when Trump's numbers right
now are at 45, his approvalsat 45, it's going to drop.
(07:11):
That number will go down.
He will continue to havefailures as he's having right now.
Look, a lot of his peopleright now are very unhappy.
Why are they unhappy?
They're unhappy because DonaldTrump has, has absolutely started
to hurt his own people.
(07:33):
When you're talking aboutcutting veterans health care, when
you're talking about cuttingsuicide hotlines, when you're talking
about cutting snap, whenyou're talking about cutting disability,
when you're talking aboutwrecking the economy with either
tariffs or these massdeportations, people are slow, but
finally figuring out they'vebeen played.
This is as good as it ever gets.
(07:55):
So as he starts to show, youknow, the, the collapse of his political
power draining out as everysecond term president does.
Bush dropped 14 points afterhe announced he was going to privatize
Social Security.
That, that doesn't, thesethings don't work well.
But as that starts tocollapse, he's going to have More
(08:16):
and more trouble intimidatingpeople that he's the future.
Now, do I think they're goingto have a sort of gigantic food fight
in 2028?
Absolutely.
Do I think that Trump's goingto try to plan some dynastic BS where
Don Jr runs?
I also think that may be the case.
He clearly is a, is a, is monarchy.
(08:38):
Curious.
Yeah, I just can't.
It's hard to imagine though,Junior stepping into his shoes.
Yeah.
Oh, it is, it looks at the.
Stones to do it.
Trump has a unique set of, ofpredicates about him.
The, the, the 40 year imagecampaign to, to make him seem like
he's a great business leader.
15 years on the Apprenticewhere millions of Americans watched
(09:01):
him play a character on a gameshow of being a strong business leader
and strong negotiator.
All of it, all of it has avery, you know, bespoke kind of effect
on who, how people think about Trump.
(09:22):
And I don't, and Junior doesnot have that.
But they will try for thisdynastic play.
And if you're in a, if you'rein a fight in 2028 with a, with a
field of 15 people or 20people, Don Jr doesn't have to win
(09:43):
a majority.
All he has to win is, youknow, 10, 15, 20%.
Do you really think Juniorwould run?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And is he viable even in theRepublican Party or in the.
Look, the Trump name is apowerful force in, in, in this world.
(10:06):
The Trump name is a verypowerful, very powerful tool.
Yeah, I know, but he, ButJunior is such a idiot.
Yeah, but Donald Trump's notexactly an intellectual, a towering
intellectual figure either.
But look, I, I think it's allright now, very much, you know, a
(10:27):
forward facing problem.
We don't know what the worldlooks like in, in four, in three
years, if he gets in trade,wars, all these things, if the economy
has an externality, either amarket crash or something else happens,
if AI starts to lead tomillions of jobs going away very
quickly, which it certainlycould, all of those things could
(10:51):
lead to a political climatewhere people go, okay, we gave this
a shot, we're done now.
But we don't know that yet.
We just don't know that yet.
And what about in Florida?
Desantis is term limited.
Who's gonna fill the magusshoes there?
(11:11):
Well, look, you've got, you'vegot Matt Gates wants to be governor.
You've got Byron Donalds, themember of Congress from southwest
Florida wants to be governor.
You've got Wilton Simpson, thecurrent agriculture Commissioner,
which is a big powerful job inFlorida, wants to be governor.
You've got Casey DeSantiswants to be governor.
There are a lot of.
(11:33):
There are a lot of people who.
There are a lot of people whowant that job.
It is the third most power,the third largest state in the country.
And, and in all of this, youknow, you're going to see the same
thing.
They're going to look to Trumpfor a lead on who should be the one,
just as they did when DeSantis ran.
(11:53):
I mean, Matt Gaetz is a veryclever politician, whether you like
him or not.
He's a, he's a fuckingdegenerate, but he's a clever politician.
Byron Donalds is very.
The Fox crowd in some wayswith like the Rupert Murdoch primary
will decide a lot of this racein a lot of ways.
But, but who would you putyour money on right now?
(12:14):
Byron Donalds.
Yeah, that's interesting because.
That's interesting because Moran against, I think he's position.
Yeah, Madison.
He's positioning himself forDonaldson's seat, I think.
Yeah, he's down there now andI think that is definitely a, a real
(12:35):
possibility that he's going tomake that run.
You know, it's funny, he, youknow, he has spilled the beans about
the Republican cocaine orgieswhen he was up on Capitol Hill and.
Yep, it's like the Matt Gates thing.
You know, he may be one of thefew times in his life Cawthorn was
telling the truth.
Yeah, Madison is a.
(12:55):
Madison is a perfect examplethat the disqualifying thing, the
things that would disqualifyanyone in the eyes of MAGA would
are campaign assets whenthey're on the list of, of people
that they like and they favor.
Yeah.
You know, I find itinteresting, you know, the Lincoln
Project.
I know it's.
I mean, you're not like acountry club conservative.
(13:18):
You were, you know, in thetrenches, you know, back in the day.
And also on your board, yougot Joe Trippy, you know, who helped
my, my campaign.
Yeah, yeah.
Certainly, you know, on theopposite, Joe.
Was a damn warrior, man.
I love him.
He is like, damn, you two guys.
Working together, which arelike kind of the both ends of the
spectrum, you know, it kind ofmakes me hopeful that there, you
(13:42):
know, there are people on bothsides that are concerned about democracy
and right and wrong and not somuch about having an R D next to
your name.
That's, that's.
Look, that is exactly how weapproach this is, is if you wake
up every day and you say, wecan disagree on policy.
We can have fights all daylong about, about, about policy,
(14:05):
but we've got to protect this,the rule of law, the Constitution,
the, the, the, the fundamentalthings that make America possible.
If you're not fighting thatfight every day, then, then you know,
the country will be inmeaningful danger as we go forward.
(14:26):
Nobody's going to have a,nobody's going to look at America
and say that is a great country.
That is, that is the kind ofcountry we want to emulate.
If we are in a world where, ifwe're in a world where the, the rule
of law doesn't exist, if we'rein a world where the President is
a king, those things arereally tough for people to, to, to,
(14:50):
to grapple with when they,when they're stuck in their old political
lane that they were in for generations.
And look, Stuart Stevens andI, you know, we fought for and elected
Republican governors andsenators and congressmen and presidents
and everything else.
And Joe did the same thing onthe Democratic side.
But we all have an agreementthat, that the danger we face right
(15:14):
now is so, so stark and so,so, so immediate that we can't, we
can't let anything stand inthe way of, of waging a fight against
people who would destroy thethings that make a, that make a modern
Western democracy possible.
What do we, you know, I lookedat it, I see like you and Joe Trippy
(15:35):
working together.
You know, I see, you know,Taylor Swift and Dick Cheney on the
same side, you know.
Right.
I thought going into theelection in November that, you know,
when people that diverse areon the same team, that there's a
real possibility of winning.
And what do we do wrong?
Well, look, there, there's,there are a couple of little things
(15:59):
and a couple of big things.
The big thing was that Bidenwas still the functional incumbent
and he was president during atime of terrible economic stress
and the voters didn't forgive him.
The Democrats failed.
The Democrats thought thatthey would propose responses to,
to inflation and job loss inthe post Covid era just by saying,
(16:23):
we're going to do the rightthing and we're going to pass these
bills to inflation reduction,Infrastructure Pact act, all these
other things that were good,they were good things to do, but
they didn't spend the periodof time they needed blaming Donald
Trump for those things that happened.
So Trump got to skate for thefirst year of the campaign.
(16:45):
Biden, you know, we're gonna,we're gonna all talk about this for
a long time.
He should not have run again.
We were not it was not our jobat Lincoln to tell the Democrats
who to pick for their nominee,but he should not have run.
Again, the debate drove down his.
I mean, that, that, that thenled to this period of, of time where
(17:09):
Trump could build and buildand build.
Harris was a fine campaignerand a good candidate.
I don't, I don't, I'm notgoing to hear from people, oh, she
was a terrible candidate.
She was a fine candidate.
She had to put together acampaign in very short time.
It wasn't today's campaign.
In some ways, it was a greatcampaign built by a bunch of guys
(17:29):
who'd elected Barack Obama,who are all very smart guys, but
it didn't efficientlyunderstand the depth of the disinformation
ecosystem on the right.
And that disinformationecosystem is powerful, permanent,
dangerous, and something thatwe are not as a country, that we
(17:52):
are not as a country ready toface up to that problem.
And we need to, we've got toget that under control.
We've got to get our headstogether on what it means to be a
nation where 50% of thepopulation believes in this catalog
of imaginary demons.
Those things have got to befaced and faced quickly.
(18:13):
And if we don't, we're goingto have the same thing again.
There were also some culturethings that divided the country that
Harris's campaign could notgrapple with appropriately.
And the number one thing wasthe trans issue.
And that trans issue, we knewit was causing a problem, not because
(18:36):
of anything Harris did, butbecause we saw what was happening
with Republicans.
They were spending money onanti trans ads everywhere in state
Senate races, in state Houseraces, in local school board races.
And Trump was spending tens ofmillions of dollars a week on the,
(18:56):
on the trans ad because it was working.
The reason it was working, youknew it was working because they
were spending the money.
Republicans do not spend moneyon things that don't work.
So the, the difficulty, thedifficulty of, of the Harris campaign
and Future Ford grappling withthat issue is one that disconnected
(19:19):
them from a lot of people.
Young white men 18 to 40,young black men 18 to 30, young Hispanic
men 18 to 30.
They were all moved by that issue.
They are uncomfortable with it.
They didn't like it.
They.
And whether that's good or badis irrelevant.
It's real.
(19:40):
It's what, it's what is reallyhappening in their, in their heads.
So we're, we're in a, we're ina situation where, you know, if you
miss cultural cues and theymissed the cultural cue on that they
missed the cultural cue on, onsome of the immigration language.
(20:02):
Harris almost got there.
She started talking aboutbeing tougher on the border than
Trump, and it was working.
But they never had the juicebehind it to, to, to, to outweigh
Trump on immigration becausehe could always go, try to go further
on it.
So that's, that's, that's, Ithink that's sort of the explanation.
And look, a lot of Democraticvoters were pissed off at, at Harris
(20:26):
over Gaza and Palestine and,and Hamas and Israel who stayed home.
We could have won Michigan ifthey had not stayed home or voted
for Jill Stein.
Like idiots a lot of them were.
There were a lot ofdisgruntled Democrats who, you know,
wanted their people, their person.
(20:46):
Like the, you know, JoshShapiro's people were never thrilled
with Harris.
And, you know, I, I, we thinkwe could have done better in Pennsylvania
maybe if it was Josh Shapiro,who knows?
But they should have beenmaking it a full court press and,
and a lot of Democratic votersjust didn't show up.
And that's on them.
You're absolutely right in it.
And I think, you know, Mo andI tried to run tough campaigns here
(21:09):
in North Carolina.
Yeah.
Mine for the state Senate andMoe's for Congress.
And the Democrats are scaredshitless to say anything bad about
the other guy.
Yep.
And where does that come from?
And okay, I will tell you there.
I mean, you've been aroundthis game a long time, my friend.
I will tell you, I will tell you.
One of the reasons they don'tdo that is their pollsters tell them
(21:33):
over and over again.
The, the, the American peoplewant us to get along and work on
solutions together.
People tell you that in focus groups.
It's a lie.
It's insane.
It doesn't work.
And the Democrats have takenthat bait.
And the Republicans will playthat game with them all the time.
(21:55):
You saw it today.
Ron Johnson during RFK Jr'shearing was like, can't we just all
work to make America healthier?
And shouldn't we all beworking together?
And it's just a total, it's atotal scam.
It's a scam from top to bottom.
And these people on theDemocratic side, they want to believe
(22:16):
in the best in people.
And unfortunately, thecounterparty in this equation believes
in one thing, and that's winning.
That's right.
And Democrats, as Mo pointsout, would rather go sit in a cafe
and have chamomile tea thanwin sometimes.
Listen, I say this to people a lot.
(22:37):
When you grow up in theRepublican Party, In Republican politics,
as a young consultant, as ayoung operative, you get two lessons
right away.
Lesson number one, Just win, baby.
Do whatever it takes to win.
Lesson number two, Stay on message.
If you have an issue withlesson number one, refer to lesson
(22:59):
number two.
If you have an issue withlesson number two, refer to lesson
number one.
Exactly.
That is how it works in theRepublican system.
And people don't have to likeit, but it's what has made them effective
for decades in campaigning.
Yeah, and I also think this adult.
We gotta be the adults in the room.
(23:19):
And if we lose, who cares?
Yeah.
No, my God, we got to get overthat, man.
Look, it is for all themarbles now, guys, this is.
This is for.
For.
This is the whole ball game Now.
None of this.
None of this makes any sense.
If you look at it.
If you look at it with.
With the existential challenge of.
(23:42):
Of what Trump represents right now.
And if you don't understand asa political operative, as a campaign
operative, that you are goingto lose the entire ball game if you
let these people run roughshodover you and you don't go out and
win elections no matter whatit takes.
Listen, there's 20 Republicansright now who went out there and
(24:03):
said, oh, I'll never vote forProject 2025.
I'm not going to vote to ban abortion.
I'm not going to guess what.
They were lying.
Every one of them was lying.
And so right now, these peopleare in.
Are in Congress.
And it goes back to a rule Ilearned years ago.
Guy says, I don't want to runthese negative ads.
(24:24):
They're so terrible, they'reso cruel.
I'm embarrassed by them.
And the consultant in questionsaid, all right.
So on election day, the guysays, it makes me feel like a scumbag.
And so the consultant said,all right, so on election day, you
want to wake up the next day,do you want to be the honorable scumbag
or just a scumbag?
(24:45):
Because do you want to win or not?
And winning matters.
Winning is the big shit.
Winning is the big deal.
Pretending that you're.
That you're some virtuous,like, pious person who.
Who's above negativecampaigning and above tearing the
bark off of people the hellout of here.
You know, Democrats arelistening to you.
(25:07):
You know, David and I downhere in North Carolina in the congressional
race, we want to get rid ofCawthorn because he was just horrib.
Terrible, terrible piece of shit.
Yeah.
So, you know, the numbers areagainst us.
So what we encourage people todo is to register as independent.
And then you could vote in theRepublican primary and get the least
worst of the, of the living.
(25:27):
Right.
And then the Democrat.
And then the Democrats said,oh, my God, you're, you're making
a game of this.
You're gaming the system.
And it's like, you know, we'replaying the rules.
Allow it.
We're not saying break the law.
Right.
We got to use the rules to our advantage.
And that's the correct, thatis the correct answer.
If the rules, if the rulespresent an advantage for you, use
the rules to your advantage.
(25:48):
Don't pretend that, thatyou're, that some sort of virtue
in your life will prevent youfrom winning.
You want to win, you got to win.
You want to, you want to dothis, you got to do this.
And there was, just for youredification, post election, there
was a professor that showedthat we moved about 3500 votes.
(26:10):
Right.
And the margin on that racewas 1400.
Sure.
And the Democrats are stillpissed, though, that we did.
Is it, is.
There is, there is nothing,there's nothing I can say to people
in the Democratic process toexpress to them more clearly how
(26:32):
much they, the Republicanculture is willing to go out and
say what needs to be said anddo what needs to be done to win.
Winning is what matters to them.
If you don't want to win, thenyou're not going to win.
That's a, that's a prettyserious, you know, and, and simple
(26:53):
thing to understand.
This is a simple equation.
Win or lose, up or down, goodor bad.
If you don't want to win,you're going to, you're.
There are plenty of ways notto win.
For people who don't want towin, there are plenty of ways for
them to say, I'm too good for this.
I'm too, I'm too, I'm too kindto say these bad things.
I'm too, I'm too principled torun this negative campaign.
(27:14):
Fuck off.
Win or don't.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Go ahead, Mo.
Yeah, Rick, I'm hoping theLincoln Project Project will be here
in North Carolina in 2026.
We've got, you know, TomTellis is up.
Yep.
Roy Cooper, our governor wasterm limited.
Yep.
You know, and Cooper won twicein North Carolina on the same ticket
that Trump won.
(27:35):
So we're.
Yeah.
North Carolina, North Carolinais not, is, is, is.
It is still a truly purple state.
There are some very redaspects of North Carolina.
There are, there are, but thedemography and the geography of the
state still means Democratscan compete and win there.
(27:56):
And I think they should bereally looking at North Carolina
with a sense of, of, you know,being a national model.
In some ways, they should wantto be a national model for how Democrats
can win, even in rural areas.
And it's not just policy, it's culture.
It's not just, it's not justpromising to pass Bill X or bill
(28:17):
Y.
It's promising to listen toeverybody and, and to not reject
the things that are that, thatthe Republican Party has weaponized
so cleverly with its base.
You know, Democrats who cantalk about their faith have about
a 60 chance, better chance ofwinning a contested race than otherwise.
(28:40):
That's right.
It, it is something that,that, that a lot of Democrats are
not comfortable with.
They don't want to do it.
They're like, I could offend aMuslim constituent, I could offend
a Jewish constituent, I couldoffend a Catholic constituent.
Talking about your faith andyour values is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
And Democrats are sold totheir, to the Republicans.
(29:01):
They sell to their base allthe time.
Democrats are Satanists,pedophiles, weirdos, academics, intellectuals,
arrogant elite.
Yeah.
And Democrats, we've got tofigure out a way to turn out African
American voters again.
I mean, we've, that's wherewe're losing it.
Listen, I here with a verywell known Democratic consultant
(29:25):
and I got this, like, don'tpresume you know what African Americans
are going to do.
You're a Republican, this and that.
I'm like, you guys really needto focus on the fact that you have
a meaningful chance of losingAfrican American men because they're
not with you on a bunch ofthings now.
(29:48):
I mean, I, I had aconversation the other day with a,
with a Democratic member ofCongress who called me and said,
you know about guns, you know,gun stuff, gun politics.
And she said, in my district,I'm hearing from a lot of Hispanic
women and African Americanwomen who are now buying guns in
their, their.
And they're.
Because they feel unsafe, Mike.
(30:09):
Yeah, because it's a culturalthing now.
All the black and white thingswe used to think that people automatically
did because they were black orHispanic or female, those are all
changing now.
And they're changing really,really rapidly.
I just think it's importantwe, we not.
If we ignore African Americanmen, the signal they're sending,
we're going to lose them andthey're going to lose them as a majority.
(30:31):
Yeah.
Rick, you think one of thethings that really, the moment.
There are a lot of thingsTrump's doing that concerns me.
But one that's kind of at thetop of the list is what's going on
with Mark Milley.
Unbelievable.
How do you see this ending?
Very, very badly.
I have to be.
I have to be honest.
I admire General Millietremendously, but I think they're.
(30:52):
The effect that they're.
They're going to try to makean example of him.
They're going to try to make.
They're going to try to.
They've taken a securitydetail away, they're going to try
to put him in danger, they'regoing to try to publicly humiliate
him.
And to be honest, they'regoing to succeed at making him into
a demon for their people,making him into a criminal for their
(31:16):
people.
It is repulsive.
It is repugnant.
It is disgusting.
But look, I think GeneralMilley needs to, in this case, like,
run to the sound of the guns.
If he thinks he can hide fromthis fight, I think that's wrong.
And lawyer the fight alone, Ithink that's wrong.
(31:38):
I think he needs to go outthere and just call it like it is
and not, not tolerate thebullshit from these people, to own
that what he did and to saywhat he did.
Because Trump is a bully andTrump's not good at people fighting
back against him.
I think Milley has theopportunity to do that and frankly,
(31:59):
you know, become sort of afigure that, that, that.
Look, we know Mark Milley, butmost people don't know Mark Milley.
I think it's important that hehave this fight in public, and the
louder and more public it is,the harder it is for Trump to fuck
him.
Exactly.
Do you think he'll do it?
I'm encouraging it.
(32:20):
Okay, good, good.
All right.
So we talked about Trump.
We've talked about the past.
Let's talk about the current situation.
And then I've got one morequestion, and I'll turn it over to
MO and then we'll call it a day.
Okay, so what's the worst casescenario you see in the next.
We'll say in the next year for America.
(32:45):
Trump declares a state ofemergency, declares some sort of
sweeping new executive powersto protect American sovereignty from
some imaginary terrorist orimaginary immigrant attack, and uses
Cash Patel and Pam Bondi atthe FBI and doj, respectively, to
(33:07):
deploy federal prosecutionsand federal arrests against his political
opponents.
That's, that's, that's prettyhigh on America not being America
much longer.
Right.
And we had Pamela Hemphill on earlier.
She's talking about plan B.
(33:28):
Are you aware of this I have.
I talked to Pamela today, but not.
About plan D.
Well, about the fact they wantto set up their own tribunals.
Yes, they.
They.
There will be.
That will happen on the.
On the.
On the.
On the January 6th matter in particular.
They're going to try to docitizens arrests of Liz Cheney and
(33:49):
whatnot.
And I think it is a very.
I.
I don't think.
I know.
It is a very dangerous worldwe'll be living in as they do that.
All right, well, if you needany assistance with what Guantanamo
Bay is like, I'm sure Monkwill tell you, having been the chief
(34:10):
prosecutor there.
Been there, done that.
Been there, done that.
Right.
Yeah, I guess that's where Imet Desantis.
I mean, he.
Right.
He was there briefly.
We overlapped.
He was a peon.
It never occurred to me when Imet him back then that he'd be where
he is today.
You know, who on theDemocratic side of you do you think
can hit back, do you think hasthe balls to take on these in a way
(34:34):
that has any effect?
Now, Nome is a good guy, butisn't he kind of Kamala Harris times
two?
Yeah.
Look, Gavin is.
Gavin is a charming individualwho will get his head caved in if
he runs for president.
California is a differentplace than it was in the heart and
(34:55):
mind of the American peoplesince Ronald Reagan ran for president.
It's a very different place.
A lot of the things that theydo in California are disqualifying.
Are disqualifying for a lot ofvoters in the country.
So I don't think Nome is the guy.
(35:15):
I would look for people whoare better on social media.
I look for people who are unafraid.
So it's aoc, it's JamieRaskin, it's Eric Swalwell, it's
Jared Moskowitz.
You want to fight this fightwhere the fight is happening, and
that is not in the oldtraditional, like, let's go on Meet
the Press and talk it out.
I think you've got to go outand have a real fight.
(35:40):
A real fight in.
In this.
In this space that.
That is fought, like I said,on that territory.
On that.
On that.
On that.
That terrain of social media and.
And podcasting and everything else.
Right.
All right, Rick.
But she didn't ask thequestion who.
(36:01):
Who is.
Who's somebody you think cando that?
Well, look, I mean, forpresident, we got a lot of choices
in that.
Like, we got a lot of choices.
It's.
It's too early for that.
I'm not going to pick horsesat this point.
But, you know, like I willtell you, there are plenty of people
who are tremendously impressive.
You know, Gretchen Whitmercomes to mind, Shapiro comes to mind,
(36:25):
and some other folks that,that are sort of dark horses out
there.
Andy Bashir, impressive ascould be.
A lot of these people willshake out in the next couple years.
They'll look at it, they'lldecide if they can or can't or should
or shouldn't do it.
But it is going to be, it isgoing to be important to have somebody
who connects with America, whocommunicates with America in a way
(36:47):
that, that works.
I mean, I had one of thebiggest Democratic donors in the
country.
I mean, in the top, top fivefor sure.
Ask me what do we need next time?
Who is it that we need fornext time?
Sort of your question.
I said, I don't know who it isyet, but I know what it is.
(37:08):
It's a brilliant communicator.
It's somebody from the Midwestor the south, and it's, it's a veteran.
And those three thingstogether matter more than policy
or, or can they, can they goin the room, in a, in a room in Hollywood
or New York or Boston orSeattle and make people happy about
(37:31):
their ideological predicates?
You need a winner.
You need somebody who feelslike, sounds like, looks like, walks
like, talks like a winner.
And, and that is the real challenge.
And, and the other part of thechallenge is of course, keeping this
from becoming a third Trumpterm next time around, which is a
constitutional fight.
(37:51):
That is, that is one that I,I, I both dread and anticipate.
What about Mark Cuban?
I think the absolute world ofMark Cuban, I think he is a guy who,
you know, it's like MarkCuban's abilities to communicate
(38:15):
and to actually implementreform like his Cost Plus Drugs company
take on a hard problem, solvethe hard problem, make life better
for people.
Holy shit.
That's what I want, a president.
I think as an outside force, aperson like Mark Cuban or Mark himself
would be a very interesting, avery interesting play.
(38:38):
And, and look, he's not afraidto go mix it up either.
He's not a go, not afraid togo talk to people that, he's not
afraid to go talk to people onthe right, on the left.
He's not afraid to go jumpinto the pool.
And I think that's really important.
And he, and he doesn't havethe gene, from what I can tell.
(38:58):
You know, he really doesn't.
And, and I like the fact thathe he's affable, he's friendly, he's
a, he's a good dude.
You're talking aboutcommunication, and I guess that's,
to me, one of the challengeswe're really facing is now that,
you know, the right has kindof taken over social media.
And I follow you on Twitterand I see you, you know, going toe
(39:20):
to toe on there, and I'd beremiss if I didn't mention that my
wife is one of your biggest fans.
I'd be eating baloneysandwiches the rest of the week if
I didn't get that in there.
But, you know, the rightstaken over social media, they've,
you know, they've beaten themainstream media into submission.
So communicating is gettingharder and harder for folks on the
(39:43):
center in the, in the left.
It is.
How do we, how do we punchthrough this?
Look, social media is still aviable area of, of engagement and
communication.
There are a lot of, you've gotto work a lot of platforms now that
you can't just be on Twitteror just be on Facebook or just be
on Insta.
You kind of have to play thewhole field.
(40:06):
And it's exhausting becauseI'm like, oh, I got to post this
on threads and on blue sky andon Twitter and on it.
All of that stuff.
You know, you, you can't, youcan't walk away from social media
now.
But the, the, the, thetraditional press is increasingly,
(40:28):
they've increasinglycapitulated to Trump, whether de
facto or de jure, and it's not pretty.
And it's harder and harder tosay, oh, I should definitely invest,
you know, all this time topitch a story to CNN when they fire
their best, their, their,their best news anchor in the day
(40:48):
part and send him, tell himhe's going to be on the midnight
shift because he has offended Trump.
You know, it's, it's, it's atough, the, the media landscape is
tough.
The disinformation aspect ofit is really tough.
And we've got to be cognizantof the fact that half of America
believes a lot of stuff thatis not true.
(41:09):
They believe it because RupertMurdoch and Mark Zuckerberg and Elon
Musk built systems that tellthem that, that they're being, that
they're living in a dark worldwhere all the immigrants are trying
to kill them and, you know,everyone's a Satanist and whatnot.
It's a really, it's a toughassignment, honestly.
(41:30):
It's, it's, it's a problemthat's above my pay grade, unfortunately
or fortunately.
Rick, thank you so much foryour time.
You're a terrific man and agreat American.
Thank you, guys.
I appreciate that so much.
And.
And I appreciate both of youfor the hard work you're doing up
in in one of my favorite partsof the universe.
I will talk to you guys again soon.
Thanks, Rick.
(41:52):
This has been Muck you, hostedby Colonel Mo Davis and David Wheeler.
Muck you is produced byAmerican muckrakers.
Copyright tonight, 2025.
You can learn more about usand donate to support our work@AmericanMuckrakers.com.
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