October 31, 2025 • 58 mins
Colonel Moe Davis and David Wheeler engage in a lively discussion with Miles Taylor, a notable figure from the Trump administration who became famous for his anonymous New York Times op-ed entitled "I Am Part of the Resistance." Taylor, who served as a senior advisor and chief of staff at the Department of Homeland Security, shares his insights on the alarming trends in American politics, particularly focusing on the potential implications of a second Trump administration. As they navigate through Taylor's experiences and the ongoing threats to democracy, the conversation highlights the importance of standing up against autocratic tendencies and the harsh realities faced by dissenters. The trio shares a mix of humor and serious reflection, emphasizing the need for accountability and the courage to speak out against injustices—no matter the personal cost. With Taylor's recent book, "Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge," they underscore the critical moment America is in, urging listeners to remain vigilant and active in the preservation of democratic values.
In a riveting episode of their podcast, Colonel Moe Davis and David Wheeler sit down with Miles Taylor, a former government official known for his outspoken criticism of the Trump administration. The conversation opens with playful banter about relationships, setting a lighthearted tone before transitioning into a serious examination of the current political climate. Taylor shares his journey from being a key player in the Trump administration to becoming a vocal critic, particularly after his anonymous New York Times op-ed revealed his concerns about the administration's authoritarian tendencies.
Throughout the episode, the trio discusses the alarming normalization of political retribution and the chilling effect it has on dissenters within the Republican Party. Taylor offers a candid look at how fear has gripped many lawmakers, leading them to abandon long-held values in favor of loyalty to Trump. He highlights the hypocrisy of individuals who once championed justice but now turn a blind eye to the administration's abuses of power. The conversation is punctuated with humor and camaraderie, making the heavy topics more accessible while underscoring the seriousness of their implications.
As the discussion deepens, Taylor reflects on the personal toll of being a whistleblower, recounting experiences of threats and isolation. He emphasizes the importance of standing up against injustice, encouraging listeners to engage actively in the democratic process. The episode concludes with a poignant reminder of the stakes involved in safeguarding democracy, leaving audiences with both motivation and a sense of urgency to take action in their own communities.
Takeaways:
- Colonel Moe Davis emphasizes the importance of fighting against authoritarianism and protecting democracy, especially in the face of potential Trump re-election.
- Miles Taylor discusses the chilling effect of political persecution and how it silences dissenting voices, reflecting on his own experiences with threats and intimidation.
- The podcast highlights the hypocrisy within the Republican Party, showcasing how loyalty to Trump often overrides long-held conservative values and principles.
- Listeners are encouraged to support efforts to push back against the erosion of democratic norms, as both hosts and their guest stress the importance of collective resistance.
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, folks, David Wheeler herein Spruce Pine with my good friend
Mo Davis, and his lovely wifeLisa is sure lucky to have him. You
married up, Lisa? I changed itaround this week. Mo, it is for you,
so. All right, well, you takeit. Introduce our guest, please.
Oh, yeah, great. Hey, listen,my wife Lisa is a big fan of our
(00:23):
guest today because every dayat our house at 4 o', clock, the
television comes on for NicoleWallace's show on msnbc. And our
guest today is a regular onthere, but we're really happy to
have Miles Taylor. Miles was afairly extensive history in government,
from a congressional stafferto Deputy Chief of Staff and senior
(00:45):
advisor to John Kelly when hewas at dhs, and then chief of staff
at DHS for the last two headsunder the the first Trump administration.
And Miles really kind of made,you know, a big splash, but nobody
knew it was him when InSeptember of 2018, he had an op ed
in the New York Times. It waspublished anonymously called I Am
(01:08):
Part of the Resistance withinthe Trump Administration. And he
has two bestselling books. Onecalled A Warning came out in 2019
and blowback came out in 2023.He has a newsletter called Treason
on Substack. And like I said,he's a regular on msnbc. And, hey,
Miles, thanks so much fortaking time out to join us.
It's great to have youfriends, but it sounds like I should
(01:29):
be talking to Lisa instead, soI'm just gonna hop off now. She and
I are gonna do a phone calland we'll catch up.
Mo hate it. Hates it when Itell him that he married up to Lisa.
I hear that every week. Every week.
I mean, I know the feeling. Iknow the feeling. Story of my life.
The only reason I even have aspinal cord is because my wife has
(01:51):
one that that's made out ofadamantium. So she's the strong one
in the household. Yeah.
Well, listen, let's start withthe important question that, you
know, you're born and raisedin Indiana, graduated from the University
of Indiana, if you went backtwo years, let's say to 2023, and
somebody said, you know, thatDonald Trump would be elected for
(02:13):
a second term or theUniversity of Indiana would be ranked
number two in the ncaa, wouldyou have believed them?
I think the second one wouldhave been much more unbelievable
to me. You know, IU has hadjust a historically terrible football
team. And so, you know, Iwould have never expected success.
(02:34):
On the other hand, with DonaldTrump, this is sort of what I had
anticipated. And, you know, noone likes the kid who says, the sky
is falling, the sky isfalling. Especially when that kid
says, see, I was right. Thesky is falling. But I'll happily
take the disapprobation insaying, I was right, the sky is falling.
(02:59):
And, you know, it's why Ispent the better part of the past
seven years trying to screaminto the void about what a second
Donald Trump administrationwould look like. Because it was obvious
to me as far back as the earlydays of the first Trump administration
that he was being held backfrom doing what he really wanted
(03:21):
to do, which was a lot ofthings that were illegal and unconstitutional,
and that if he won a secondterm, he would pursue those things
with alacrity. And now, ofcourse, he's done that. And, you
know, so I think at thispoint, it's incumbent upon all of
us to think, well, once you'rein a situation like that, what can
(03:42):
you do to contain it and topreserve the republic? And our options
from that standpoint arerelatively limited.
Yeah, I know back in 2008,when Obama got elected, I think I
mistakenly thought that thatwas a. And I guess it was a turning
point, just not the one Ithought it was. And I thought the
country had turned a pagethen. Then we got the backlash from
(04:05):
that, and Trump got elected in2016, and then I thought in 2020
when Biden won that, you know,the country had regained its senses.
And then, you know, 2024 rollsaround, and I've just been amazed
at the speed with which he's,you know, just blown through all
the gates that normally, youknow, hold presidents back and has,
you know, done things that,you know, you go back 10 years, folks
(04:28):
would have said we're, youknow, unimaginable here in the US
And I guess the latest, or notthe latest, I mean, hell, it's every
day we're shocked by somethinghe's done. But, you know, he used
to gripe about. I mean, itseems like whatever Trump gripes
about the Democrats doing iswhat he's planning to do. And one
of those is weaponizing theJustice Department. And I guess Comey,
(04:48):
James Comey, I've, you know,wasn't a huge fan of his to begin
with, but, you know, it's justhard to believe in America that a
president can weaponize theJustice Department to go after his
political enemies. And, youknow, he's going after Comey for
lying, Letitia James formortgage fraud, John Bolton for classified
documents. And I'm surprisedthe U.S. attorney in Maryland hadn't
(05:10):
gotten fired because I guess Iread where they don't think there's
enough evidence to indict AdamSchiff. But what's the strategy here
with. And why is theRepublican Party just sitting on
his hands and letting him dothis with the perversion of justice?
Well, I would say it is, um,it's something that we've heard a
(05:31):
good deal from folks on theother side of this whole thing. On
the, on the Trump side, theyaccuse his critics of Trump derangement
syndrome, but I would say thatis what they are, in fact suffering
is. There is such a severederangement on the right that they
(05:51):
are willing to be theobsequious pleasers to Donald Trump
no matter what he says ordoes. And I sometimes talk to friends
of mine who are maybe sort ofat the periphery of our friendships
who are still in the MAGAmovement, working on Capitol Hill,
some of them members ofCongress. And I tease them and say,
you know, if he walked in hereright now and he asked you to lick
(06:14):
his toes, would you lick histoes? Just to see their reaction.
You know, they roll theireyes, come on, I'm not gonna lick
the man's toes. And then Ijust, I don't even laugh or smile.
I say, but I mean, really, ifhe did it, if he demanded it, you
wouldn't do it if it was goingto end your whole career. Because
they're willing to tiethemselves into pretzel knots for
things that are far moreegregious and debasing and controversial
(06:36):
than licking the man's toes.And, you know, that to me is the,
is the derangement syndromewhen it comes to Donald Trump, that
there is a cohort of people,millions in fact, so willing to jettison
their long held values andbeliefs for the tribal leader. And
I think that is best explainedby the intrinsic fear people have
(06:59):
of being kicked out of theirtribes. And I use this quote a lot.
But Jerry Seinfeld had afamous bit where he would go do stand
up and he would say, you know,a study came out recently that shows
what the top 10 fears are foryour average American. And at the
very top of the list, numberone is public speaking, and number
two is death. So your averageAmerican is more afraid to deliver
(07:25):
the eulogy than to be layinginside the casket. And I think it's
a great joke, but also onethat highlights a truth, which is
that people are very scared tospeak, to speak out, to speak in
front of others, to statetheir views. They are worried that
it exposes them to, to beingkicked out of the tribe. And they'd
(07:46):
rather be caught dead thangetting kicked out of the tribe.
And that's, I think, the bestexplanation for how so many of my
former colleagues in theRepublican Party ended up sticking
by Donald Trump no matterwhat, including when he defied their
most closely held policypositions and values. And the Republican
(08:11):
Party today looks nothing atall like the conservative movement
that I joined. And I remain aconservative. I'm a hardcore libertarian
conservative, a smallgovernment guy, a Friedrich Hayek,
Milton Friedman economicconservative. But this party doesn't
look at all like those thingsthat we had championed in the years
(08:32):
before Donald Trump came topower. So. So ultimately, I think
that's the answer. I mean, somany Republicans are doing this because
they are deathly afraid ofbeing kicked out of the tribe. And
their identities, their jobs,their futures are, are all tied up
within that.
Yeah, I just did an op ed inour local paper here in Asheville
last week on my, my firsttrial as an attorney in the Air force
was in 1984. My opponent was ayoung captain from South Carolina
(08:55):
named Lindsey Graham. So, so,so I've known him for 41 years. And,
you know, back when I waschief prosecutor at Guantanamo, after
the Supreme Court struck downthe military commissions that Bush
had created, I worked with Boomer.
Dean versus Bush, I think was the.
Decision, oh, Hamdan SalimHamdan who?
Bin Laden's driver, Neil Catchall Boomedine was later.
(09:17):
Yep. But, you know, in thatcase, in that case, Congress, you
had to reauthorize thecommission. So Lindsey's office called
and I went over and met withhim and in John McCain, and they
asked, you know, for my helpand with the legislation to reauthorize
the military commissions. Andone of the things I told him was,
you know, the first year inthe job, folks pretty much left me
(09:38):
alone. I could kind of dowhatever I wanted. But then when
President Bush transferred thehigh value detainees, Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed and the others fromthe CIA down to Guantanamo, suddenly
everybody was interested inwhat I was doing, had an opinion
on how I should do my job aschief prosecutor. So when we were
working on the legislation, Itold Graham and McCain that it'd
(09:59):
be great if we could include aprovision in there that would prohibit
meddling in the prosecutorialprocess. And they agreed and put
it in the statute that no onecould attempt to influence the exercise
of prosecutorial judgment. Andthen now, I don't know if you saw,
a couple weeks ago whenLindsey was on one of the Sunday
morning shows, they asked himabout Trump meddling in the Comey
(10:22):
case. And he said, you know, Idon't give a damn. So I found it
shocking that this guy I knewwho went to extraordinary lengths
to protect the rights ofKhalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned
9, 11, and then doesn't give ashit about the rights of an American
like James Comey. But, but Ithink it's a good example of what
you're talking about, ofpeople that are willing to, you know,
contort themselves intopretzels to stay in the good graces
(10:44):
of the President.
It's absolutely right. Andthat's such a great example of, frankly,
the mind numbing hypocrisy wesee all the time coming from these
folks. You know, anotherexample that strikes me along those
lines is what we've seen withTrump himself in the past two weeks
on the issue of free speech.You know, whether people agreed or
(11:08):
disagreed with the message ofprotesters around the country in
the no Kings event, which wasthe largest single day peaceful protest
in American history, there wasno denying that free speech was at
best assailed in the daysafterwards by the President, who
posted a relatively grotesqueAI generated video of him dumping
(11:30):
human excrement from a fighterjet onto the protesters. So the symbol
was very obvious. He wasdisdaining free speech. In the same
week, Mo the President and theWhite House signaled that they would
be making changes to the USRefugee program to basically block
people from almost allcountries in the world, but to open
(11:54):
up asylum in the United Statesto people in Europe who have protested
illegal immigration there andwho have been criticized for it.
So, you know, think, thinksome of these far out neo Nazis there
who have, you know, fomentedviolent protests across Europe, including,
you know, physically blockingSyrian refugees from across, coming
(12:17):
across the border. DonaldTrump wants to give them asylum in
America because he says their,their free speech is being persecuted.
So in the same week, you'vegot the White House dumping human
feces on American protesters,l on their right to free speech and
saying, but by the way, we'lltake neo Nazis from Europe and protect
them and protect their rightsto free speech. That's side by side
(12:39):
is unlike anything I've everseen from an American president.
Right.
Well, you know, another one Isee is his, you know, his alleged
crackdown on crime and drugsthat, you know, he's the one that
he's got to, you know, sendthe troops into American cities to
fight crime. He's got a bomb,you know, boats off the coast of
Venezuela to prevent drugs.Yet he pardoned Ross Ulbricht, the
(13:00):
guy that created Silk Road.The biggest online drug distribution
channel who was serving, youknow, life sentence without parole.
And then was it ChangpingZhao, the crypto king, who is, you
know, helped the Trump familywith their crypto empire. He was
convicted of money laundering.And then you got George Santos, the
(13:21):
January 6th domesticterrorist. So, you know, this claim
that, you know, on crime anddrugs, when he does the exact opposite,
just seems hypocritical andnobody calls him out on it.
I couldn't agree with youmore. And you know, on the, on the
crime and drugs piece, thereis another. You know, there's another
really very eerie aspect towhat we are seeing in the Caribbean
(13:45):
and off the coast ofVenezuela, which is that the same
legal and militaryjustifications they are using to
blow up these boats of allegednarco terrorists are the same legal
authorities and use of forcejustifications that they are starting
to deploy against people inthe political opposition in the United
(14:06):
States. And I mean that very,very literally, and you know this
better than anyone, buthistorically, the United States has
only been able to designategroups as terrorist organizations
if they are foreign basedgroups. There's a congressional architecture
for designating what's calledFTOs, Foreign Terrorist Organizations.
And once a group has beendesignated, it basically unlocks
(14:30):
a series of extraordinarypowers for the President to be able
to sanction them financially,go after them militarily and on down
the list. Well, theadministration, by fiat, a month
ago, created their owndomestic terrorism organization architecture,
which is something that we hadconsidered on Capitol Hill, something
we had considered when I waslast in the administration, and which
(14:53):
Democrats and Republicansresoundingly said, we do not want
this because it could bepoliticized too easily. So Congress
never passed a domesticterrorism law. Well, the administration
last month created their owndomestic terrorism system where they
can designate groups asdomestic terrorist organizations.
And then they've decided theycan just go mirror all the things
(15:14):
that we do to foreignterrorist organizations. Of course,
the scary thing about this isnow the President and his team, according
to reports, are looking atjust political opposition groups
to designate. You know, groupslike Indivisible have been mentioned
in the headlines. It's thegroup that organized the no Kings
protest. It's not a terroristorganization. You may disagree with
(15:35):
that group even fervently ifyou're on the MAGA side, but, uh,
it's, it's prettyextraordinary, logically to say,
and by the way, they're aterrorist organization. Terrorism,
by the way, under federal law,is targeted violence meant to intimidate
or coerce a civilianpopulation. It would be impossible
for someone to show that thatthat protests group that brought
(15:58):
7 million Americans out topeacefully protest is secretly trying
to convince those Americans toconduct acts of violence. And if
that's the case, they've donea really shitty job at it because
of those 7 million peoplegoing out and not engaging in acts
of. Yet this administrationhas now designated groups like that,
and they've designated antifa,quote, unquote, antifa as a terrorist
(16:18):
organization. And they arepursuing prosecutions of associated
groups. And of course, a lotof analysts and observers are now
worried that this is openingthe door to the terrorist watch list
being used and abused in avery significant way. But as you
know, Mo, there's not a greatdeal of oversight of the watch list.
(16:40):
So it will be tough to knowand probably will take a while to
know if the administration isstarting to use those types of counterterrorism
tools to go after thepolitical opposition. And then the
worry is, do they at somepoint ratchet up direct action against
the political opposition likewe are seeing off the coast of Venezuela?
(17:00):
That sounds very outlandish.That sounds like a plot for a bad
fiction novel. But this. Thisis the same logical construct that
they're using to go after doperunners, which also, you know, by
the way, are not terrorist organizations.
Yeah. I find it interestingwhen I find myself in agreement with
Rand Paul, because he's beenone of the few that's actually spoke.
(17:24):
It's the same, too. Like withhealth care, when I'm. I'm agreeing
with Josh Hawley and MarjorieTaylor Greene, it makes me want to
stop and figure out where I'mwrong if I'm in agreement with them.
But that's right. You checkyourself in at that point, you're
like, I don't know. I don'tknow. Something's not right.
Yep.
Well, that. Interesting segue,Miles, to something I got in the
mail yesterday. A while back,I got a notice from Google that the
(17:47):
government had asked foremails. And I haven't talked to Mo
about this. I haven't talkedto anybody about it. So I get this
email from Google and Ithought it was spam or something,
saying, the government askedfor your emails and we're under an
obligation to tell you, but wecan't tell you why. So I filed a
motion in district court inWashington to unseal it. And yesterday
(18:10):
I did get a notice that thejudge had approved that, and it's
requiring the government tofile a response within 28 days of
restoration of funding. So I'mcaught up in the government Shutdown.
But you know, we're notexactly well funded. We're not exactly
(18:31):
as high profile as LincolnProject. But the fact that the government's
after our emails is very, veryinteresting and gave me pause, to
be honest with you. Are youhearing anything like similar. Any
other rumblings in Washingtonor folks that you know?
Well, David, there's a wholegroup of us who've been dying to
(18:51):
read your emails for years.So, you know, I'm hoping to collaborate
with the Trump administrationjust to get a peek at those if I
can.
Well, I wondered if you hadsomething to do with it because,
you know, you come on ourshow, you're clearly obsessed with
either Mo or me. So, yeah, no,I'll be. Actually, I would be happy
(19:13):
to publish them. They're thebiggest waste of times. Although
I do have some good responseswhen people like this woman on Monday
said, go fuck yourself, and Isaid, or go fuck you, I said, when
and where, honey?
There you go. Well, you know,David, not to make light of it, but,
you know, I'm sure that thatwas a terrifying thing to receive.
(19:35):
And I suspect we are going tosee a lot more Americans in a very
similar circumstance in thenot too distant future, if not already.
In fact, you know, a lot ofjournalists that I talk to, you know,
people in, you know, a rangeof different media organizations,
from corporate media toindependent media, strongly suspect
(19:56):
that their communications arebeing monitored because this administration
came into office and signaledthat there would be a crackdown on
the free press. And in fact,after I was targeted by the White
House a couple weeks later,the Justice Department issued a memo
rescinding protections forjournalists, long standing protections
(20:18):
for journalists. And theycited as part of the justification
the President's investigativeorder against me. And so, you know,
you have a lot of folks,whether it's at CNN or MSNBC or like
I said, just people, you know,reporting on substack or, you know,
with podcasts now suspectingthat the federal government is engaged
(20:40):
in the pursuit of theirrecords as an effort to root out
their sources, as an effort toprove that by publishing, publishing
or saying something, they'vesomehow violated the Espionage Act.
And I think we are going tosee a flurry of cases brought in
the wake of that monitoringpotentially as early as late this
year. And I cite as an exampleof that what happened to Barbara
(21:01):
Starr when she was at cnn. CNNPentagon CORRESPONDENT she published
a story that the Trumpadministration didn't like. She found
out much later that the FBIgot approval from the Justice Department
to basically go up on hercommunications, you know, seize her
records. And eventually, likeyou, David, she got, you know, something
of a delayed notification thatthat had happened. And I don't think
(21:24):
there are any guardrails lefton that at all. I mean, there used
to be, like I said, there's apolicy at the Justice Department
basically to handle therecords of journalists, public figures,
podcasters, et cetera, withkid gloves, because they might be
engaged in First Amendmentprotected speech. And it had to go
through a whole array ofdifferent approvals and lawyers.
That's all gone now. And, youknow, and it's not just journalists,
(21:45):
of course. I mean, like I wassaying to Mo earlier, the. The potential
watch listing of ordinaryAmericans further increases the aperture
of the type of person whomight get caught up in the administration's
dragnet.
Yeah, it was. It was prettydisturbing to get it and realize
it was real, especially to getthe order in the mail from the judge
(22:07):
that confirmed that theyactually had asked for the records.
I can't wait to get thembecause I'll. I'll publish them or
publish at least thegovernment's response and see what
they were after. I mean, wehaven't. The only thing I could think
was, you know, the Iranian.The purported Iranian organization
(22:28):
sent us some emails, but thatwas. That wasn't during the time
frame that they requested. Butmoving on.
Well, David, I will say you'vegot us on pins and needles now. So
if people already were nottuning in frequently enough for the
muck you podcast now, theyneed to be tuning in every single
week, because we got to knowhow this story ends well, and we
(22:50):
haven't.
Thank you for that, Miles. Andwe'll expect you to appear back with
us at another time, but only.
To read the emails in, like,an exaggerated Trump voice. I would
like to place an order for twopizzas at Domino's, the types of
things that I suspect you're sending.
(23:11):
Yeah, well, you know, theother thing we. I did here was. And
we were talking about this alittle bit off the air, but, you
know, I took a proactive stepof filing a civil lawsuit against
Trump, assuming they wouldshow up and get it tossed. But I
wanted to make him spend somemoney here in addition to all the
emotional infliction of painthat he's put upon me because I got
(23:34):
over 100 death threats. Andyou get the same crap on a regular
basis, but it's directly tied.He had 19 visits into North Carolina,
and obviously, we're proudopponents of his. And, you know,
I would get. On a regularbasis, you know, we're going to come
and blow your fucking houseup. And, and Donald Trump is going
(23:55):
to send me there and he'lldefend me kind of stuff. So I filed
a civil lawsuit against Trumpfor a nuisance, public nuisance,
which is a law here in NorthCarolina and a couple other areas.
And that's actually coming toa head because they denied that it
existed for the longest timeand then they, they're finally sending
(24:17):
lawyers here. So that'sanother thing that we can update
on in the near future. And myphone's going off, so I'm going to
pause here.
It's got a great little. Well,what I will say, David, while we're
waiting for you to jump backin, is I'm excited to hear the results
of that one, too. Another,another opportunity for accountability
(24:39):
in the, in the courts. And solet's see what happens there.
Yeah, well, it's, it's goingto be an interesting case because
they're in default. He didn't,he didn't answer for 11 months. Another
roaring DLA Piper lawyers inhere, one from New York, one from
D.C. and another one fromRaleigh. And our court has local
(25:01):
rules here where they, theywill not do continuances. So I think
I've got them, but we'll see.And then that would, the next step
would be a default judgment.And I'm asking for three and a half
million dollars. So we'll seewhether it works or not.
But.
So that's another segue intoyour life. Miles, where are you?
(25:27):
What are the lawyers sayingthat he could come after you with?
Well, I will just say this onething, David. I mean, I think any
opportunity there is to flagfor people how vitriolic the environment
has gotten, the better. And,you know, things like, you know,
you were just describing havehappened to you consistently happen
(25:47):
to our family. You know, we'reon the receiving end of, of death
threats and doxing and attacksand creeps who send stuff in the
mail and all sorts of thingslike that. And you never know if
it's just a Looney Tune tryingto get a reaction, which is usually
99% of the time, or that 1% ifit's something more nefarious. In
(26:08):
fact, I won't play the wholething, but I mean, I did a supercut
not too long ago of just ahandful of the voicemails that I
got the last time my phone wasdoxxed. And, you know, the MAGA movement
goes out there and they'llsay, here's his home address, here's
his Phone number. And you knowit's happening because all of a sudden,
when you get doxed and it goesout to one of their listservs, your
(26:30):
phone just starts meltingdown. You're like, oh, that's funny.
I don't know that 8 4, 0number. That's funny. I don't know
THAT 239 number. And then yourphone just keeps ringing and nonstop.
You got to turn it off becauseit just melts down. And I just pulled
it up on here. I'm just goingto play a few of these so people
get a sense of what this feelslike, because these people leave
messages.
You are disgusting people.You're evil, and you're gonna go
(26:51):
down. You, my friend, are apiece of. You are a traitor. You're
pushing for anti Trump. Youdumb. We will squash you like a peanut.
You're done.
You're done. So eat a dick anddie. Miles, we're gonna talk to you.
You're not gonna be able towalk down the street. You're an anti
(27:12):
American. Leave the country.You're not welcome here anymore.
You're anti American. You hateyour country. Get out. Because you
will deserve the laugh ofhell. And I think you will get what's
coming to you, God willing.Miles Taylor, what the are you thinking
going against Trump, you andyour cronies?
(27:32):
I mean, it go. It goes on andon. But, you know, like I said, you
get some of those and someonesays, you know, I'll be at your house
tonight. And your wife hearsthose and says, well, I mean, do
you think that's real? Youwant to be able to give a confident
answer? No, it's just a crazyperson. We're going to be all right
at home. But you don't knowthe answer to that question for sure.
(27:54):
And that's the environment weare in, where the vitriol has jumped
the tracks into violence.Whether it's what we saw with Charlie
Kirk, whether it's what we sawwith the attempted assassination
just last week of the topDemocrat in Congress, Hakeem Jeffries.
And a lot of that is drivenfrom the top. And so, in answer to
your question, David, becauseit's related, as soon as Donald Trump
(28:19):
put me back in the crosshairsin April of this year, we saw a sharp
uptick in those sorts ofthreats. So on April 9, he issues
an executive order in the OvalOffice. I'm just coming home, bringing
the dog home from the doggroomer, and my wife was just coming
home with our baby at the sametime. And we pull into the driveway.
It is a gorgeous spring day.We both get out at the same time,
(28:41):
and we're commenting on justhow beautiful of a day it is. And
I get a text message from ajournalist who said, hey, the President
is talking about you right nowin the Oval Office. You might want
to tune in. And my heart justsunk because we had expected at some
point to be on one of hislists of retribution. I didn't expect
(29:03):
to be singled out so directlyand personally. And come to find
out, as I pull up the livestream, that the President was signing
an executive order directingme to be investigated by his agencies
for, in his words, treason.The highest crime envisioned in the
Constitution. A crime that ispunishable by death in the United
(29:24):
States. And ironically, he hasaccused me of this high crime there
in the Oval Office. But thenhis order is basically a direction
to his agencies to go find theevidence. So think about that as
the justice process flipped.Rather than find evidence of a crime
and build up to chargingsomeone, the President effectively
charges me in the Oval Officeand says, okay, and my people are
(29:45):
going to go find the evidence.I was later told by legal scholars
that that was the first timein American history in 249 years
that an American President hadissued an order to investigate one
of his critics for FirstAmendment protected speech. No executive
order like that had ever goneout. And then, moments later, he
did the same thing for one ofmy former colleagues, Chris Krebs,
(30:07):
whose crime was declaring thatthe 2020 election was free and fair
and secure. So, look, as aconsequence of that, as I noted,
you know, even if Trumpdoesn't take the term treason seriously,
his supporters do and haveresponded to me with the vitriol
of someone who their leaderdeems as worthy of a death sentence.
(30:31):
That's scary enough, but thesocial fear of even being associated
with me in the aftermath meantlosing friends and family who we
thought were going to be thereto support us. It meant losing professional
relationships and associationsthat my wife and I had. And it also
meant that the business thatwe started, the business upon which
(30:52):
50 people depended onpaychecks every two weeks, was decimated,
completely decimated, becausethe other two co founders of the
business were scared thatTrump would also come after them.
And that's before Trump'sadministration did anything to go
fulfill the order. That's justthe after effects of being named
(31:14):
to the President's blacklist.Now, in terms of their investigation,
you know, we don't know wherewe're at with it. We don't know when
something will Drop. We don'teven know what I'm guilty of. I certainly
know I'm not guilty oftreason. I know I'm not guilty of
removing classifiedinformation like Donald Trump left
office with. But we expectthat their effort is to go find something.
(31:37):
And that's what's so scaryabout this, is that if we can be
selectively and vindictivelyprosecuted than anyone in American
can be. You know, the onlything holding the President back
from that is whether he hastime to sign his signature on a document.
That is the world that we areentering into. And it's one of the
(31:59):
reasons that my wife and Idecided to fight back. And that may
sound like a no brainer tosomeone who's just listening like,
well, you've been wronglyaccused. Of course you're going to
fight back. But I will tellyou, when something like that happens,
like what happened in April,the majority of people in your life
come to you and say, youshould just lay low, just lay low.
Don't say anything else. Hopethat he just meant it to be mean
(32:21):
and just protect your familyand hope it blows over. I'm telling
you, that's the, that's whatthe majority of people in your life
come to you and say. And theyall have that opinion. Within the
first 24 hours, you're delugedwith folks saying, hey, just take
a beat. And so we did. We tooka beat for a few weeks and then we
realized this is wrong. Whyare we hiding from this guy? We are
(32:41):
innocent. And even if punchingback increases the likelihood of
him prosecuting me, if wedon't, more people are going to be
on the receiving end of whatwe were. We have to make it hard
for them. And we have to, bythe way, do this so that eventually
our challenge against theadministration makes its way up to
(33:02):
the high court and they candetermine that executive orders like
that, as my lawyers believe,as constitutional law scholars believe,
are unconstitutional on theirface. So that's the process that
we are in at the moment. Butwe're also in a wait and see mode
to see if the house getsraided, to see if they drop charges.
(33:23):
And then if they do, you know,we're gonna fight it like hell.
Well, good. And have you, andI don't want you to disclose your
legal strategy here, but haveyou thought about taking the offense?
You know, Mr. Wolf, MichaelWolf had filed a billion dollar lawsuit
against Melania. What? Whywouldn't you guys go on the offense
(33:43):
and file something againsthim? I know they're going to claim
it's executive action orwhatever, but at least get something
on the record and maybe getinto some discovery that may, may
help you down the road.
We are. Well, I'll take yourexhortation not to disclose too much.
We have some more options onour list here of things to do, but
(34:05):
one that we did a few monthsago was we filed a formal legal complaint
with two of the inspectorsgeneral in the US Government, the
Department of JusticeInspector General and the Department
of Homeland Security InspectorGeneral, to say we believe that people
inside their agencies are onthe receiving end of an inherently
(34:27):
unconstitutional executiveorder meant to violate my civil rights
and civil liberties. Andthat's the order that Trump put out
in April, and thataccordingly, we would ask those inspectors
general to investigate whichagents and personnel of those departments
are engaged in the executionof an unlawful order. Now, we don't
(34:50):
have a lot of insight into howthe IGs are pursuing this, and I'm
also, you know, cautiouslypessimistic that the IGs across the
government are performingtheir intended functions. A lot of
these inspector generals arevery scared, especially because Trump
fired so many of them when hecame into office. But in normal times,
(35:11):
this would be a guardrail, andwe're going to know sooner or later
here whether that guardraileven exists anymore, whether the
watchmen that were placed byCongress inside these agencies for
exactly this reason, we willknow whether they are still functioning
or not. And like I said, I'mnot terribly optimistic about where
(35:35):
that one goes, but that's afirst step in our escalatory process
of engagement with this administration.
Well, I'm glad to hear that.And, you know, the other thing you
might, you guys might want toconsider is do what Trump did. You
know, he's asking for $230million purportedly from the Justice
Department. He filed a, whatthey call a Form 95, which you file
(35:55):
before you actually initiatelitigation. Why don't you guys do
that? File a billion dollarrequest for compensation based upon
this, these faulty executiveorders and get somebody on the record
to say yes or no. Thoseweren't. And I, I just think, again,
I'm glad to hear you going onthe offense, but I think, you know,
(36:17):
he's going to do whatever he'sgoing to do anyway. So take your
own action, Miles, and, andget aggressive about it and move
forward in a way thatobviously your council has to sign
off on all that. But you wouldget a lot of support from a lot of
people like myself. And Ican't speak for mo, but I assume
so. And, and a Lot of otherfolks on this side of the Trump fight
(36:39):
to help fund it too. And, andI'm sure there would be pro bono
lawyers that would come out ofthe woodwork to help you take an
offensive action against thisbecause it's the only way he ever
listens is when you take himto court. And that's why I filed
this action here in Mitchellcounty was, you know, I wanted to
get their attention andhopefully maybe they wouldn't do
(37:00):
it to other people. So anyway,I'm not a lawyer. I'm not very smart
either, and I'm a littlePisces, so a little bit country,
a little bit rock and roll.But you should, you know, think about
it, think about it.
I appreciate that and I feel alittle bit like it's, I think Taylor
(37:21):
Swift went on a podcast yearsago and someone said to her, hey,
you know, to get out fromunder this terrible label you've
got, you should go re recordyour masters and then you would own
all of your music and theycouldn't go sell your catalog. Talking
to you guys is kind of likethat. It's like, hey, here are a
couple more ideas that youcould go deploy against the guy.
(37:44):
So I appreciate it. We'refortunate to have a killer legal
team. And my head lawyer, AbbyLowell, is currently representing
a number of targets of Trump'srevenge campaign. And you know, hopefully
we don't have to be ondefense, but before that we will
(38:05):
continue to ratchet up theoffense. So grateful for you. And
look, that's what's importantfor people to take away from that,
is that they're not alone. Imean, I'll tell you, in April, it
felt very, very lonely. And itwas scary because even though institutions
had been singled out, lawfirms, universities and others in
(38:27):
presidential executive orders,there hadn't been any individuals,
you know, singled out likethat. And you know, we were concerned
that we would be fighting thisalone. Now. Not that I'm happy to
see the boat getting so bigand so many people getting persecuted.
I'm not. But it makes iteasier for other people to start
pushing back when theyrealize, oh, David's in the boat
(38:50):
and Miles is in the boat andhell, Jimmy Kimmel's in the boat,
Stephen Colbert's in the boat.That gives people, people more courage
to fight back when theyotherwise would not. And it's ultimately
what is so self defeatingabout an autocrat is they cannot
help themselves, that theypunish and they punish and they continue
(39:10):
to punish with the goal ofdeterring others. But over time,
eventually all they do is makeenough enemies to get themselves
opposed and removed. And, youknow, hopefully that's where we end
up. And it looks like we'regoing to have another attempt to
try to defeat the guy in 2028because he's hell bent on being president
(39:33):
again.
Just one quick thing, Mo. Whydid you ask for a meeting with the
motherfucker, you know, go onRachel's show or somebody's show
and say, hey, listen, Mr.President, you know, I realize you've
got feelings about me. Whydon't we sit down and talk about
it? You're the greatnegotiator. Let's negotiate something.
I'll give you a $20 millionworth of my, you know, free advice
(39:54):
over the next 10 years, whichshould be go to hell, go to hell,
go to hell. But that. I justthink people don't think that they
can challenge the guy. Andthey can. He'll say something stupid.
He'll get. You'll getsomething on the record. But I maybe
challenge him to a debate.Challenge him to a IQ test. I don't
know, something.
(40:14):
Or challenge him to an MRItest. You know, they can do his again
and they can do mine, and wecan compare the health of those brains.
You know, release the MRIscans. I think should be up there
with. Release the Epsteinfiles. Well, look, I'll say this,
David. If. If you guys canpersuade him to come onto here, I'll
gladly debate him on the show.I think that would be a. You know,
this would be a great thingfor MUC U.
(40:36):
Well, listen, you know, fromwhat you described, you know what
you. It reminds me, you know,when I was the chief prosecutor at
Guantanamo, I resigned withthe issue of torture. Then, you know,
I had the Bush administration.You're trying to, you know, demonize
me for. For doing that. Andyou really do find out who your friends
are because, you know, whenthings are going well, everybody's
your buddy. But when the shithits the fan, you really find out,
(40:58):
you know, who your friends areand who they aren't. And like you
said, it can be a lonely. Alonely feeling. But, you know, I
think you'll find in the end,you're not going to lose any sleep
over. Over doing the rightthing. I mean, I had the same thing,
like, you know, with me. Youknow, people are saying, keep your
head down and your mouth shutand, you know, you can move up to
bigger and better things. But,you know, I've never lost a minute
(41:20):
of sleep over. Over doing theright thing. So I admire you for
sticking to your Guns andhanging in there. But don't you think
the whole purpose of all this,like with, you know, with you and
Bolton and Comey and James andall those folks, I mean, those are
all, I mean, I think anyattorney would admit are frivolous
cases. But that's not thepoint. The point is to harass. I
(41:42):
mean, it's going to take folkstime and money and mental anguish
and all that crap to have togo through this process. But I think
that's what he wants. I mean,I don't think he's expecting to win
these cases, but he just wantsto make an example of people to deter
others from having theaudacity to stand up to him.
Well, that's right. And ifanyone doubted that, that was the
(42:02):
motivation. The day after thePresident issued his order against
me, Rolling Stone published anarticle where the headline quoted
senior White House officialswho said we had to make an example
out of Miles Taylor. The pointthey made clear was we had to go
after him to deter others fromcriticizing the president. And implicit
(42:26):
in that is the notion that theprocess is the punishment, because
they know it's a vindictiveprosecution. They've known that the
Comey case, the James case,the Bolton case, they've known that
these are vindictiveprosecutions. And many of them will
get thrown out because judgeswill determine that that is the case.
But in the process, as younote, being on that blacklist can
(42:49):
be devastating. And I've beentalking about that for months, not
to have people generatesympathy for my family, but so that
they can understand howserious it is. Just if the President
uses his investigative powersto go after people, even if he loses
all these cases in the court,even if people like me and Comey
(43:10):
and others are completelyvindicated, it doesn't feel like
vindication when you've lostyour job, your business, your financial
security, your savings, yourfamily's sense of safety. All of
those things can and do happenbefore they do a thing. And I thought
I knew what this was likeafter 2020. I mean, there was a,
(43:31):
you know, there was a lot of.A lot of outpouring of animosity
from Trump supporters when Icame forward against him in the 2020
election, but it was nothingcompared to what we've experienced
this year. And again, that'sbefore charges have even dropped.
So they know that. They knowthat the process is the punishment,
(43:54):
and that's why we have tofight hard to get, you know, even
those tools the President hascurtailed by the courts.
Well, if you combine that youknow, the weaponizing of the Justice
Department. You've got, youknow, the far right literally owns
social media and most oftraditional media. And the part they
don't own, they've kind ofwhipped into submission. You've got,
(44:18):
you know, us. You know, havingbeen in the military for 25 years,
I couldn't imagine having UStroops deployed into US cities to
patrol US streets and harassUS citizens. But that's where we
are. And I think you've talkedabout before that you feel like this
is a false flag deployingtroops, and it's looking to provoke
a response that would justifyTrump exercising even greater authority.
(44:43):
But what do you see as the endgame, doing all these different things?
What is the objective forTrump and for his supporters?
Well, those are two differentthings. Trump and his supporters.
And for all of eternity,people in our shoes have asked the
question, you know, why is anautocrat oppressing us? You can go
(45:03):
back to contemporaries in theSoviet Union and Nazi Germany. You
can go back to Rome. And thatquestion is always there when there's
a wannabe autocrat rising theranks. Why are they doing this? You
know, why do they want to. Whydo they want to oppress people? And
the answer, like mostdictators through all of history,
(45:25):
tends to be the same. It'sjust legacy. You know, we're all
driven by the same thing. I'mnot saying that David would be a
dictator or Mo would be adictator, although you probably would
both be benevolent dictators.But we're all driven by legacy and
the desire to survive afterwe've died. It's why a Donald Trump
builds buildings with his nameon it. It's why he wants to build
(45:47):
a ballroom to sit next to theWhite House forever. It's why he
wants to build a monumentacross from the Lincoln Memorial
that he says is for him. It'swhy he wants to consolidate power
in the United States. He wantsto build a legacy. And if you doubt
that, look to who he compareshimself to most frequently. George
(46:07):
Washington and AbrahamLincoln. And, you know, when I was
in the Trump administration, Ithought this was, of course, absurd
that Donald Trump soregularly, in private and in public,
compared himself to. At thetime, he didn't have Washington in
the mix. It was often Lincolnand Ronald Reagan. And I thought,
this guy's insane to think heis as significant a figure in the
(46:30):
Republican Party as RonaldReagan, who defined an entire generation
of conservatives. And now Irealize I was wrong and he was right.
He has made himself moresignificant than Reagan, and I would
say Maybe doubleexponentially. I mean, he is significantly
more impactful now on theRepublican Party and its future than
(46:53):
Ronald Reagan ever was. Andwhy would Donald Trump want that?
Because he wants that legacy.And in the meantime, if he can profit
off of the presidency, he andhis heirs can ensure that the Trump
name exists in perpetuity andhas control. I think that's what
all of this is about. Andagain, that's largely what it boils
(47:15):
down to in world history, whenyou see dictators consolidating power.
Now, I say that's differentthan Trump's followers, because what
do they get out of Trump'senduring legacy? Well, it's what
they get by not turningagainst him, which is they get to
stay in the tribe. And back tothe start of our conversation, that
tribalism is what gets peopleto continue to follow leaders, even
(47:40):
when those leaders light thevalues of the tribe on fire. It's
more important to stay in thetribe than to be a purist ideologically.
And so that's why you have somany people marching after him. It's
why you have American CEOs,who in the 2020 election spent hundreds
of millions of dollars againstDonald Trump, who now show up at
(48:02):
the White House and havedinner with him and fawn over him
and give him what he wants, isthey're scared, they're terrified
that he'll come after them,he'll come after their businesses.
And that fear is the glue.That fear is the glue that keeps
people behind that leader. Sothat's what I think Donald Trump
is trying to do. Where is hegoing with it? He wants to do what
(48:23):
all autocrats do, which isconsolidate power. Name the institution,
name the sector of society. Heis on a quest to consolidate power.
But this time he is doing itsystematically with, I hate to admit
it, very intelligent and savvylieutenants, some of them, many of
them are exquisitely stupid.But the, the Stephen Millers and
(48:45):
the Russ Votes and othersaround Donald Trump are working very
systematically to make surethese institutions, whether it's
the media, whether it'seducation, whether it's the legal
sector, are brought to heel sothat he can advance his power. And
it is bearing fruit. It isworking. As an example, at this point,
in the First Trumpadministration, 75% of the lawsuits
(49:06):
brought by the administrationwere brought by the major law firms
in this country. Today, thatnumber is 15%. Even though the courts
have ruled that the executiveorders punishing the law firms were
unconstitutional. It doesn'tmatter. These firms are self censoring
and they are staying out ofthe fight. It has worked, and that's
(49:28):
what he'll continue to do. Andif people think that this year was
bad, they ain't seen nothingyet because this was the lay the
foundation year. Next year forthem is execution year.
Yeah. And we're almost out oftime, but I just want to ask you
real quickly. You know, youtalked about being a lifelong Republican,
but a while back, you startedthe Renew America movement, which
(49:51):
is now merged into the ForwardParty. So can you tell listeners
just a little bit about theForward Party and what you're trying
to do with it?
Yeah, I'm not currently amember of it. I mean, I did that,
you know, look, to help theirexperiment get some legs. But I had
started Renew America Movementto try to rally concerned Republicans
together to turn the tide ofthe GOP back the rational direction
(50:15):
and to try to get concernedAmericans around a. Not necessarily
to change the party itself,but to bring conservatism back into
a more moderate direction. Ican say that I failed catastrophically.
And a lot of other Republicanslike Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger,
who likewise builtorganizations with the same goal,
(50:38):
have failed. And so one of thethings at the time I thought was
worth experimenting with wasthird party politics. And so we folded
our organization into aneffort launched by Andrew Yang to
go try to create a competitivethird party in the United States.
You know, it's stillstruggling, I think, to get its sea
legs, but I'm very convincedthat Andrew's goal and the goal of
(51:05):
others associated with themovement is a noble one and is actually
starting to gain a little bitmore steam and is one of the few
pathways out of this crisisthat we are in, because after Donald
Trump leaves, I expect therewill be ping pong politics. We are
already hearing from the farleft a desire to use the same tools
(51:26):
Trump has used, but to reversewhat he's done. The term fight fire
with fire, you know, has like,spiked in usage on social media,
on the left. This is going toresult in, you know, at some point,
left wing leaders doing someof the same things that they decried.
And even if it's in the nameof reversing Trump's decisions, then
(51:46):
you've just got that, thatseesaw of politics where the sides
are going to get morevitriolic. And one of the few ways
to break that is to introducemore competition back into our democracy,
to introduce more choices onthe ballot. And one of those potential
ways is a third party. And infact, my friends who are still involved
with Forward Party I thinkthey're meeting right now at some
summit and havingconversations. They've got folks
(52:07):
on the ballot next year. It'sexciting. The question always is,
you know, can a third partysucceed in America? I think the answer
to that is, is yes. I thinkthe. The environment is ripe, but
it's. It's always a questionof timing. So, you know, we'll see.
In the meantime, I am a. I'm ahumble independent who's focused
(52:31):
on trying to limit the damageas much as humanly possible before
in some way, shape or form,this guy is gone.
Well, it's a noble cause, andyou're the right guy to do it. It's
been such a pleasure to get toknow you a little bit more, Miles.
It's really interesting that,you know, we try and get Democrats
on this show if we end up withthe moderate former Republicans as
(52:55):
the majority of our guests,and they're always as informed and
intelligent as you are. And soI want to thank you for coming on
the show.
They took my party, but theycan't take my brain away from me.
That's true. That's true.Well, one more question for you,
and then we'll call it a day.But, I mean, when is too much for
(53:17):
you? I mean, if you thoughtabout hitting the road to Canada,
do you have an Xfield plan? Imean, I have an exfil plan. I mean,
I know where I'm going to goand how I'm going to get there and
what it's going to cost. Buthow about you?
Look, I'm staying here tofight this until it's over. You know,
it won't surprise you that alot of folks came to me after April
and said, look, you know, thisguy's not going to rest until some
(53:39):
of you are in prison. Youknow, it may not be all of you because,
you know, a lot of you, hejust wants the punishment to be or
the process to be thepunishment, but he's going to try
to lock people up. And, youknow, I had folks encourage me to
flee, but, you know, I feltlike especially being in the crosshairs
is reason enough not to,because the last thing I want to
(54:02):
do is be the first person tosend the signal of this country is
not redeemable, and the onlyoption is to exit. And so I want
to fight. I want to fight andwin in the courts and make sure that
we do what we can to preservethe last vestiges of the rule of
law. And, you know, I hopewe're successful in that and on the
(54:25):
back end of it, you can betyour ass I'm going to be looking
for a vacation home in some,some foreign country at least to
go to every now and again. Butthat won't be until this is over.
Well, and hopefully thegovernment will pay for that house
for you.
That's right. Amen.
Or the Trump Organization.It'd be better if I guess maybe Eric
(54:45):
paid for it, but we'll seeabout that. Well, again, our guest
today on MUCU has been MilesTaylor. Terrific guy. Give folks
a way to get a hold of you orfollow you on the socials and the
name of your latest book.
Yeah, they can follow me onmost social media platforms, MilesTaylor
(55:07):
USA or onsubstack@treason.substack.com the
substack is so named becauseif Donald Trump thinks that dissent
is treason, then I am a proudtraitor. And my most recent book
is called Blowback A Warningto Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge.
(55:27):
And apparently Americansdidn't heed that warning.
Well, heed the warning thistime, folks. Mo, if I end up in Guantanamo,
is there a special room that Ishould request or.
I think it's going to beinteresting. I think the hurricane
is maybe doing a number onGuantanamo right now. You may not
(55:48):
have to worry about it.
Jail, jail, jailbreak downthere, I guess. Yeah.
All right, Miles, thank you somuch. Thank you, Mo, for joining
this episode of Muck you.We'll see you next time.
Thanks, everybody.
Thanks, Miles.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville
and David Wheeler in SprucePine, North Carolina. Did I mention
(56:09):
that Mo married up? He's luckyLisa puts up with him. Thanks to
our guest today, Mr. MilesTaylor, a national security expert
and best selling author whoserved as Staff of the U.S. department
of Homeland Security andanonymous author of the New York
Times op ed. I am part of theresistance inside the Trump administration
has become a leadingcommentator on democracy reform.
(56:30):
A special thanks to EmilyMatthews for helping get Miles on
our show. Muck you is producedby by American muckrakers. Copyright
2025 and all rights arereserved. Enjoy additional episodes
with Mike Madrid, Errol Musk,Pamela Hemphill, Denver Riggleman,
Anthony Scaramucci, DavidJolly, Adam Kinzinger, Paul Bagala,
(56:52):
Mark McKinnon andothers@AmericanMokrakers.com Please
subscribe and support our workon Substack. Thanks for listening
and y' all come back for thenext episode. Soda Muck you.
Hey, folks, David Wheeler herein Spruce Pine with my good friend
Mo Davis, and his lovely wifeLisa is sure lucky to have him. You
married up, Lisa? I changed itaround this week. Mo, it is for you,
so. All right, well, you takeit. Introduce our guest, please.
Oh, yeah, great. Hey, listen,my wife Lisa is a big fan of our
(00:23):
guest today because every dayat our house at 4 o', clock, the
television comes on for NicoleWallace's show on msnbc. And our
guest today is a regular onthere, but we're really happy to
have Miles Taylor. Miles was afairly extensive history in government,
from a congressional stafferto Deputy Chief of Staff and senior
(00:45):
advisor to John Kelly when hewas at dhs, and then chief of staff
at DHS for the last two headsunder the the first Trump administration.
And Miles really kind of made,you know, a big splash, but nobody
knew it was him when InSeptember of 2018, he had an op ed
in the New York Times. It waspublished anonymously called I Am
(01:08):
Part of the Resistance withinthe Trump Administration. And he
has two bestselling books. Onecalled A Warning came out in 2019
and blowback came out in 2023.He has a newsletter called Treason
on Substack. And like I said,he's a regular on msnbc. And, hey,
Miles, thanks so much fortaking time out to join us.
It's great to have youfriends, but it sounds like I should
(01:29):
be talking to Lisa instead, soI'm just gonna hop off now. She and
I are gonna do a phone calland we'll catch up.
Mo hate it. Hates it when Itell him that he married up to Lisa.
I hear that every week. Every week.
I mean, I know the feeling. Iknow the feeling. Story of my life.
The only reason I even have aspinal cord is because my wife has
(01:51):
one that that's made out ofadamantium. So she's the strong one
in the household. Yeah.
Well, listen, let's start withthe important question that, you
know, you're born and raisedin Indiana, graduated from the University
of Indiana, if you went backtwo years, let's say to 2023, and
somebody said, you know, thatDonald Trump would be elected for
(02:13):
a second term or theUniversity of Indiana would be ranked
number two in the ncaa, wouldyou have believed them?
I think the second one wouldhave been much more unbelievable
to me. You know, IU has hadjust a historically terrible football
team. And so, you know, Iwould have never expected success.
(02:34):
On the other hand, with DonaldTrump, this is sort of what I had
anticipated. And, you know, noone likes the kid who says, the sky
is falling, the sky isfalling. Especially when that kid
says, see, I was right. Thesky is falling. But I'll happily
take the disapprobation insaying, I was right, the sky is falling.
(02:59):
And, you know, it's why Ispent the better part of the past
seven years trying to screaminto the void about what a second
Donald Trump administrationwould look like. Because it was obvious
to me as far back as the earlydays of the first Trump administration
that he was being held backfrom doing what he really wanted
(03:21):
to do, which was a lot ofthings that were illegal and unconstitutional,
and that if he won a secondterm, he would pursue those things
with alacrity. And now, ofcourse, he's done that. And, you
know, so I think at thispoint, it's incumbent upon all of
us to think, well, once you'rein a situation like that, what can
(03:42):
you do to contain it and topreserve the republic? And our options
from that standpoint arerelatively limited.
Yeah, I know back in 2008,when Obama got elected, I think I
mistakenly thought that thatwas a. And I guess it was a turning
point, just not the one Ithought it was. And I thought the
country had turned a pagethen. Then we got the backlash from
(04:05):
that, and Trump got elected in2016, and then I thought in 2020
when Biden won that, you know,the country had regained its senses.
And then, you know, 2024 rollsaround, and I've just been amazed
at the speed with which he's,you know, just blown through all
the gates that normally, youknow, hold presidents back and has,
you know, done things that,you know, you go back 10 years, folks
(04:28):
would have said we're, youknow, unimaginable here in the US
And I guess the latest, or notthe latest, I mean, hell, it's every
day we're shocked by somethinghe's done. But, you know, he used
to gripe about. I mean, itseems like whatever Trump gripes
about the Democrats doing iswhat he's planning to do. And one
of those is weaponizing theJustice Department. And I guess Comey,
(04:48):
James Comey, I've, you know,wasn't a huge fan of his to begin
with, but, you know, it's justhard to believe in America that a
president can weaponize theJustice Department to go after his
political enemies. And, youknow, he's going after Comey for
lying, Letitia James formortgage fraud, John Bolton for classified
documents. And I'm surprisedthe U.S. attorney in Maryland hadn't
(05:10):
gotten fired because I guess Iread where they don't think there's
enough evidence to indict AdamSchiff. But what's the strategy here
with. And why is theRepublican Party just sitting on
his hands and letting him dothis with the perversion of justice?
Well, I would say it is, um,it's something that we've heard a
(05:31):
good deal from folks on theother side of this whole thing. On
the, on the Trump side, theyaccuse his critics of Trump derangement
syndrome, but I would say thatis what they are, in fact suffering
is. There is such a severederangement on the right that they
(05:51):
are willing to be theobsequious pleasers to Donald Trump
no matter what he says ordoes. And I sometimes talk to friends
of mine who are maybe sort ofat the periphery of our friendships
who are still in the MAGAmovement, working on Capitol Hill,
some of them members ofCongress. And I tease them and say,
you know, if he walked in hereright now and he asked you to lick
(06:14):
his toes, would you lick histoes? Just to see their reaction.
You know, they roll theireyes, come on, I'm not gonna lick
the man's toes. And then Ijust, I don't even laugh or smile.
I say, but I mean, really, ifhe did it, if he demanded it, you
wouldn't do it if it was goingto end your whole career. Because
they're willing to tiethemselves into pretzel knots for
things that are far moreegregious and debasing and controversial
(06:36):
than licking the man's toes.And, you know, that to me is the,
is the derangement syndromewhen it comes to Donald Trump, that
there is a cohort of people,millions in fact, so willing to jettison
their long held values andbeliefs for the tribal leader. And
I think that is best explainedby the intrinsic fear people have
(06:59):
of being kicked out of theirtribes. And I use this quote a lot.
But Jerry Seinfeld had afamous bit where he would go do stand
up and he would say, you know,a study came out recently that shows
what the top 10 fears are foryour average American. And at the
very top of the list, numberone is public speaking, and number
two is death. So your averageAmerican is more afraid to deliver
(07:25):
the eulogy than to be layinginside the casket. And I think it's
a great joke, but also onethat highlights a truth, which is
that people are very scared tospeak, to speak out, to speak in
front of others, to statetheir views. They are worried that
it exposes them to, to beingkicked out of the tribe. And they'd
(07:46):
rather be caught dead thangetting kicked out of the tribe.
And that's, I think, the bestexplanation for how so many of my
former colleagues in theRepublican Party ended up sticking
by Donald Trump no matterwhat, including when he defied their
most closely held policypositions and values. And the Republican
(08:11):
Party today looks nothing atall like the conservative movement
that I joined. And I remain aconservative. I'm a hardcore libertarian
conservative, a smallgovernment guy, a Friedrich Hayek,
Milton Friedman economicconservative. But this party doesn't
look at all like those thingsthat we had championed in the years
(08:32):
before Donald Trump came topower. So. So ultimately, I think
that's the answer. I mean, somany Republicans are doing this because
they are deathly afraid ofbeing kicked out of the tribe. And
their identities, their jobs,their futures are, are all tied up
within that.
Yeah, I just did an op ed inour local paper here in Asheville
last week on my, my firsttrial as an attorney in the Air force
was in 1984. My opponent was ayoung captain from South Carolina
(08:55):
named Lindsey Graham. So, so,so I've known him for 41 years. And,
you know, back when I waschief prosecutor at Guantanamo, after
the Supreme Court struck downthe military commissions that Bush
had created, I worked with Boomer.
Dean versus Bush, I think was the.
Decision, oh, Hamdan SalimHamdan who?
Bin Laden's driver, Neil Catchall Boomedine was later.
(09:17):
Yep. But, you know, in thatcase, in that case, Congress, you
had to reauthorize thecommission. So Lindsey's office called
and I went over and met withhim and in John McCain, and they
asked, you know, for my helpand with the legislation to reauthorize
the military commissions. Andone of the things I told him was,
you know, the first year inthe job, folks pretty much left me
(09:38):
alone. I could kind of dowhatever I wanted. But then when
President Bush transferred thehigh value detainees, Khalid Sheikh
Mohammed and the others fromthe CIA down to Guantanamo, suddenly
everybody was interested inwhat I was doing, had an opinion
on how I should do my job aschief prosecutor. So when we were
working on the legislation, Itold Graham and McCain that it'd
(09:59):
be great if we could include aprovision in there that would prohibit
meddling in the prosecutorialprocess. And they agreed and put
it in the statute that no onecould attempt to influence the exercise
of prosecutorial judgment. Andthen now, I don't know if you saw,
a couple weeks ago whenLindsey was on one of the Sunday
morning shows, they asked himabout Trump meddling in the Comey
(10:22):
case. And he said, you know, Idon't give a damn. So I found it
shocking that this guy I knewwho went to extraordinary lengths
to protect the rights ofKhalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned
9, 11, and then doesn't give ashit about the rights of an American
like James Comey. But, but Ithink it's a good example of what
you're talking about, ofpeople that are willing to, you know,
contort themselves intopretzels to stay in the good graces
(10:44):
of the President.
It's absolutely right. Andthat's such a great example of, frankly,
the mind numbing hypocrisy wesee all the time coming from these
folks. You know, anotherexample that strikes me along those
lines is what we've seen withTrump himself in the past two weeks
on the issue of free speech.You know, whether people agreed or
(11:08):
disagreed with the message ofprotesters around the country in
the no Kings event, which wasthe largest single day peaceful protest
in American history, there wasno denying that free speech was at
best assailed in the daysafterwards by the President, who
posted a relatively grotesqueAI generated video of him dumping
(11:30):
human excrement from a fighterjet onto the protesters. So the symbol
was very obvious. He wasdisdaining free speech. In the same
week, Mo the President and theWhite House signaled that they would
be making changes to the USRefugee program to basically block
people from almost allcountries in the world, but to open
(11:54):
up asylum in the United Statesto people in Europe who have protested
illegal immigration there andwho have been criticized for it.
So, you know, think, thinksome of these far out neo Nazis there
who have, you know, fomentedviolent protests across Europe, including,
you know, physically blockingSyrian refugees from across, coming
(12:17):
across the border. DonaldTrump wants to give them asylum in
America because he says their,their free speech is being persecuted.
So in the same week, you'vegot the White House dumping human
feces on American protesters,l on their right to free speech and
saying, but by the way, we'lltake neo Nazis from Europe and protect
them and protect their rightsto free speech. That's side by side
(12:39):
is unlike anything I've everseen from an American president.
Right.
Well, you know, another one Isee is his, you know, his alleged
crackdown on crime and drugsthat, you know, he's the one that
he's got to, you know, sendthe troops into American cities to
fight crime. He's got a bomb,you know, boats off the coast of
Venezuela to prevent drugs.Yet he pardoned Ross Ulbricht, the
(13:00):
guy that created Silk Road.The biggest online drug distribution
channel who was serving, youknow, life sentence without parole.
And then was it ChangpingZhao, the crypto king, who is, you
know, helped the Trump familywith their crypto empire. He was
convicted of money laundering.And then you got George Santos, the
(13:21):
January 6th domesticterrorist. So, you know, this claim
that, you know, on crime anddrugs, when he does the exact opposite,
just seems hypocritical andnobody calls him out on it.
I couldn't agree with youmore. And you know, on the, on the
crime and drugs piece, thereis another. You know, there's another
really very eerie aspect towhat we are seeing in the Caribbean
(13:45):
and off the coast ofVenezuela, which is that the same
legal and militaryjustifications they are using to
blow up these boats of allegednarco terrorists are the same legal
authorities and use of forcejustifications that they are starting
to deploy against people inthe political opposition in the United
(14:06):
States. And I mean that very,very literally, and you know this
better than anyone, buthistorically, the United States has
only been able to designategroups as terrorist organizations
if they are foreign basedgroups. There's a congressional architecture
for designating what's calledFTOs, Foreign Terrorist Organizations.
And once a group has beendesignated, it basically unlocks
(14:30):
a series of extraordinarypowers for the President to be able
to sanction them financially,go after them militarily and on down
the list. Well, theadministration, by fiat, a month
ago, created their owndomestic terrorism organization architecture,
which is something that we hadconsidered on Capitol Hill, something
we had considered when I waslast in the administration, and which
(14:53):
Democrats and Republicansresoundingly said, we do not want
this because it could bepoliticized too easily. So Congress
never passed a domesticterrorism law. Well, the administration
last month created their owndomestic terrorism system where they
can designate groups asdomestic terrorist organizations.
And then they've decided theycan just go mirror all the things
(15:14):
that we do to foreignterrorist organizations. Of course,
the scary thing about this isnow the President and his team, according
to reports, are looking atjust political opposition groups
to designate. You know, groupslike Indivisible have been mentioned
in the headlines. It's thegroup that organized the no Kings
protest. It's not a terroristorganization. You may disagree with
(15:35):
that group even fervently ifyou're on the MAGA side, but, uh,
it's, it's prettyextraordinary, logically to say,
and by the way, they're aterrorist organization. Terrorism,
by the way, under federal law,is targeted violence meant to intimidate
or coerce a civilianpopulation. It would be impossible
for someone to show that thatthat protests group that brought
(15:58):
7 million Americans out topeacefully protest is secretly trying
to convince those Americans toconduct acts of violence. And if
that's the case, they've donea really shitty job at it because
of those 7 million peoplegoing out and not engaging in acts
of. Yet this administrationhas now designated groups like that,
and they've designated antifa,quote, unquote, antifa as a terrorist
(16:18):
organization. And they arepursuing prosecutions of associated
groups. And of course, a lotof analysts and observers are now
worried that this is openingthe door to the terrorist watch list
being used and abused in avery significant way. But as you
know, Mo, there's not a greatdeal of oversight of the watch list.
(16:40):
So it will be tough to knowand probably will take a while to
know if the administration isstarting to use those types of counterterrorism
tools to go after thepolitical opposition. And then the
worry is, do they at somepoint ratchet up direct action against
the political opposition likewe are seeing off the coast of Venezuela?
(17:00):
That sounds very outlandish.That sounds like a plot for a bad
fiction novel. But this. Thisis the same logical construct that
they're using to go after doperunners, which also, you know, by
the way, are not terrorist organizations.
Yeah. I find it interestingwhen I find myself in agreement with
Rand Paul, because he's beenone of the few that's actually spoke.
(17:24):
It's the same, too. Like withhealth care, when I'm. I'm agreeing
with Josh Hawley and MarjorieTaylor Greene, it makes me want to
stop and figure out where I'mwrong if I'm in agreement with them.
But that's right. You checkyourself in at that point, you're
like, I don't know. I don'tknow. Something's not right.
Yep.
Well, that. Interesting segue,Miles, to something I got in the
mail yesterday. A while back,I got a notice from Google that the
(17:47):
government had asked foremails. And I haven't talked to Mo
about this. I haven't talkedto anybody about it. So I get this
email from Google and Ithought it was spam or something,
saying, the government askedfor your emails and we're under an
obligation to tell you, but wecan't tell you why. So I filed a
motion in district court inWashington to unseal it. And yesterday
(18:10):
I did get a notice that thejudge had approved that, and it's
requiring the government tofile a response within 28 days of
restoration of funding. So I'mcaught up in the government Shutdown.
But you know, we're notexactly well funded. We're not exactly
(18:31):
as high profile as LincolnProject. But the fact that the government's
after our emails is very, veryinteresting and gave me pause, to
be honest with you. Are youhearing anything like similar. Any
other rumblings in Washingtonor folks that you know?
Well, David, there's a wholegroup of us who've been dying to
(18:51):
read your emails for years.So, you know, I'm hoping to collaborate
with the Trump administrationjust to get a peek at those if I
can.
Well, I wondered if you hadsomething to do with it because,
you know, you come on ourshow, you're clearly obsessed with
either Mo or me. So, yeah, no,I'll be. Actually, I would be happy
(19:13):
to publish them. They're thebiggest waste of times. Although
I do have some good responseswhen people like this woman on Monday
said, go fuck yourself, and Isaid, or go fuck you, I said, when
and where, honey?
There you go. Well, you know,David, not to make light of it, but,
you know, I'm sure that thatwas a terrifying thing to receive.
(19:35):
And I suspect we are going tosee a lot more Americans in a very
similar circumstance in thenot too distant future, if not already.
In fact, you know, a lot ofjournalists that I talk to, you know,
people in, you know, a rangeof different media organizations,
from corporate media toindependent media, strongly suspect
(19:56):
that their communications arebeing monitored because this administration
came into office and signaledthat there would be a crackdown on
the free press. And in fact,after I was targeted by the White
House a couple weeks later,the Justice Department issued a memo
rescinding protections forjournalists, long standing protections
(20:18):
for journalists. And theycited as part of the justification
the President's investigativeorder against me. And so, you know,
you have a lot of folks,whether it's at CNN or MSNBC or like
I said, just people, you know,reporting on substack or, you know,
with podcasts now suspectingthat the federal government is engaged
(20:40):
in the pursuit of theirrecords as an effort to root out
their sources, as an effort toprove that by publishing, publishing
or saying something, they'vesomehow violated the Espionage Act.
And I think we are going tosee a flurry of cases brought in
the wake of that monitoringpotentially as early as late this
year. And I cite as an exampleof that what happened to Barbara
(21:01):
Starr when she was at cnn. CNNPentagon CORRESPONDENT she published
a story that the Trumpadministration didn't like. She found
out much later that the FBIgot approval from the Justice Department
to basically go up on hercommunications, you know, seize her
records. And eventually, likeyou, David, she got, you know, something
of a delayed notification thatthat had happened. And I don't think
(21:24):
there are any guardrails lefton that at all. I mean, there used
to be, like I said, there's apolicy at the Justice Department
basically to handle therecords of journalists, public figures,
podcasters, et cetera, withkid gloves, because they might be
engaged in First Amendmentprotected speech. And it had to go
through a whole array ofdifferent approvals and lawyers.
That's all gone now. And, youknow, and it's not just journalists,
(21:45):
of course. I mean, like I wassaying to Mo earlier, the. The potential
watch listing of ordinaryAmericans further increases the aperture
of the type of person whomight get caught up in the administration's
dragnet.
Yeah, it was. It was prettydisturbing to get it and realize
it was real, especially to getthe order in the mail from the judge
(22:07):
that confirmed that theyactually had asked for the records.
I can't wait to get thembecause I'll. I'll publish them or
publish at least thegovernment's response and see what
they were after. I mean, wehaven't. The only thing I could think
was, you know, the Iranian.The purported Iranian organization
(22:28):
sent us some emails, but thatwas. That wasn't during the time
frame that they requested. Butmoving on.
Well, David, I will say you'vegot us on pins and needles now. So
if people already were nottuning in frequently enough for the
muck you podcast now, theyneed to be tuning in every single
week, because we got to knowhow this story ends well, and we
(22:50):
haven't.
Thank you for that, Miles. Andwe'll expect you to appear back with
us at another time, but only.
To read the emails in, like,an exaggerated Trump voice. I would
like to place an order for twopizzas at Domino's, the types of
things that I suspect you're sending.
(23:11):
Yeah, well, you know, theother thing we. I did here was. And
we were talking about this alittle bit off the air, but, you
know, I took a proactive stepof filing a civil lawsuit against
Trump, assuming they wouldshow up and get it tossed. But I
wanted to make him spend somemoney here in addition to all the
emotional infliction of painthat he's put upon me because I got
(23:34):
over 100 death threats. Andyou get the same crap on a regular
basis, but it's directly tied.He had 19 visits into North Carolina,
and obviously, we're proudopponents of his. And, you know,
I would get. On a regularbasis, you know, we're going to come
and blow your fucking houseup. And, and Donald Trump is going
(23:55):
to send me there and he'lldefend me kind of stuff. So I filed
a civil lawsuit against Trumpfor a nuisance, public nuisance,
which is a law here in NorthCarolina and a couple other areas.
And that's actually coming toa head because they denied that it
existed for the longest timeand then they, they're finally sending
(24:17):
lawyers here. So that'sanother thing that we can update
on in the near future. And myphone's going off, so I'm going to
pause here.
It's got a great little. Well,what I will say, David, while we're
waiting for you to jump backin, is I'm excited to hear the results
of that one, too. Another,another opportunity for accountability
(24:39):
in the, in the courts. And solet's see what happens there.
Yeah, well, it's, it's goingto be an interesting case because
they're in default. He didn't,he didn't answer for 11 months. Another
roaring DLA Piper lawyers inhere, one from New York, one from
D.C. and another one fromRaleigh. And our court has local
(25:01):
rules here where they, theywill not do continuances. So I think
I've got them, but we'll see.And then that would, the next step
would be a default judgment.And I'm asking for three and a half
million dollars. So we'll seewhether it works or not.
But.
So that's another segue intoyour life. Miles, where are you?
(25:27):
What are the lawyers sayingthat he could come after you with?
Well, I will just say this onething, David. I mean, I think any
opportunity there is to flagfor people how vitriolic the environment
has gotten, the better. And,you know, things like, you know,
you were just describing havehappened to you consistently happen
(25:47):
to our family. You know, we'reon the receiving end of, of death
threats and doxing and attacksand creeps who send stuff in the
mail and all sorts of thingslike that. And you never know if
it's just a Looney Tune tryingto get a reaction, which is usually
99% of the time, or that 1% ifit's something more nefarious. In
(26:08):
fact, I won't play the wholething, but I mean, I did a supercut
not too long ago of just ahandful of the voicemails that I
got the last time my phone wasdoxxed. And, you know, the MAGA movement
goes out there and they'llsay, here's his home address, here's
his Phone number. And you knowit's happening because all of a sudden,
when you get doxed and it goesout to one of their listservs, your
(26:30):
phone just starts meltingdown. You're like, oh, that's funny.
I don't know that 8 4, 0number. That's funny. I don't know
THAT 239 number. And then yourphone just keeps ringing and nonstop.
You got to turn it off becauseit just melts down. And I just pulled
it up on here. I'm just goingto play a few of these so people
get a sense of what this feelslike, because these people leave
messages.
You are disgusting people.You're evil, and you're gonna go
(26:51):
down. You, my friend, are apiece of. You are a traitor. You're
pushing for anti Trump. Youdumb. We will squash you like a peanut.
You're done.
You're done. So eat a dick anddie. Miles, we're gonna talk to you.
You're not gonna be able towalk down the street. You're an anti
(27:12):
American. Leave the country.You're not welcome here anymore.
You're anti American. You hateyour country. Get out. Because you
will deserve the laugh ofhell. And I think you will get what's
coming to you, God willing.Miles Taylor, what the are you thinking
going against Trump, you andyour cronies?
(27:32):
I mean, it go. It goes on andon. But, you know, like I said, you
get some of those and someonesays, you know, I'll be at your house
tonight. And your wife hearsthose and says, well, I mean, do
you think that's real? Youwant to be able to give a confident
answer? No, it's just a crazyperson. We're going to be all right
at home. But you don't knowthe answer to that question for sure.
(27:54):
And that's the environment weare in, where the vitriol has jumped
the tracks into violence.Whether it's what we saw with Charlie
Kirk, whether it's what we sawwith the attempted assassination
just last week of the topDemocrat in Congress, Hakeem Jeffries.
And a lot of that is drivenfrom the top. And so, in answer to
your question, David, becauseit's related, as soon as Donald Trump
(28:19):
put me back in the crosshairsin April of this year, we saw a sharp
uptick in those sorts ofthreats. So on April 9, he issues
an executive order in the OvalOffice. I'm just coming home, bringing
the dog home from the doggroomer, and my wife was just coming
home with our baby at the sametime. And we pull into the driveway.
It is a gorgeous spring day.We both get out at the same time,
(28:41):
and we're commenting on justhow beautiful of a day it is. And
I get a text message from ajournalist who said, hey, the President
is talking about you right nowin the Oval Office. You might want
to tune in. And my heart justsunk because we had expected at some
point to be on one of hislists of retribution. I didn't expect
(29:03):
to be singled out so directlyand personally. And come to find
out, as I pull up the livestream, that the President was signing
an executive order directingme to be investigated by his agencies
for, in his words, treason.The highest crime envisioned in the
Constitution. A crime that ispunishable by death in the United
(29:24):
States. And ironically, he hasaccused me of this high crime there
in the Oval Office. But thenhis order is basically a direction
to his agencies to go find theevidence. So think about that as
the justice process flipped.Rather than find evidence of a crime
and build up to chargingsomeone, the President effectively
charges me in the Oval Officeand says, okay, and my people are
(29:45):
going to go find the evidence.I was later told by legal scholars
that that was the first timein American history in 249 years
that an American President hadissued an order to investigate one
of his critics for FirstAmendment protected speech. No executive
order like that had ever goneout. And then, moments later, he
did the same thing for one ofmy former colleagues, Chris Krebs,
(30:07):
whose crime was declaring thatthe 2020 election was free and fair
and secure. So, look, as aconsequence of that, as I noted,
you know, even if Trumpdoesn't take the term treason seriously,
his supporters do and haveresponded to me with the vitriol
of someone who their leaderdeems as worthy of a death sentence.
(30:31):
That's scary enough, but thesocial fear of even being associated
with me in the aftermath meantlosing friends and family who we
thought were going to be thereto support us. It meant losing professional
relationships and associationsthat my wife and I had. And it also
meant that the business thatwe started, the business upon which
(30:52):
50 people depended onpaychecks every two weeks, was decimated,
completely decimated, becausethe other two co founders of the
business were scared thatTrump would also come after them.
And that's before Trump'sadministration did anything to go
fulfill the order. That's justthe after effects of being named
(31:14):
to the President's blacklist.Now, in terms of their investigation,
you know, we don't know wherewe're at with it. We don't know when
something will Drop. We don'teven know what I'm guilty of. I certainly
know I'm not guilty oftreason. I know I'm not guilty of
removing classifiedinformation like Donald Trump left
office with. But we expectthat their effort is to go find something.
(31:37):
And that's what's so scaryabout this, is that if we can be
selectively and vindictivelyprosecuted than anyone in American
can be. You know, the onlything holding the President back
from that is whether he hastime to sign his signature on a document.
That is the world that we areentering into. And it's one of the
(31:59):
reasons that my wife and Idecided to fight back. And that may
sound like a no brainer tosomeone who's just listening like,
well, you've been wronglyaccused. Of course you're going to
fight back. But I will tellyou, when something like that happens,
like what happened in April,the majority of people in your life
come to you and say, youshould just lay low, just lay low.
Don't say anything else. Hopethat he just meant it to be mean
(32:21):
and just protect your familyand hope it blows over. I'm telling
you, that's the, that's whatthe majority of people in your life
come to you and say. And theyall have that opinion. Within the
first 24 hours, you're delugedwith folks saying, hey, just take
a beat. And so we did. We tooka beat for a few weeks and then we
realized this is wrong. Whyare we hiding from this guy? We are
(32:41):
innocent. And even if punchingback increases the likelihood of
him prosecuting me, if wedon't, more people are going to be
on the receiving end of whatwe were. We have to make it hard
for them. And we have to, bythe way, do this so that eventually
our challenge against theadministration makes its way up to
(33:02):
the high court and they candetermine that executive orders like
that, as my lawyers believe,as constitutional law scholars believe,
are unconstitutional on theirface. So that's the process that
we are in at the moment. Butwe're also in a wait and see mode
to see if the house getsraided, to see if they drop charges.
(33:23):
And then if they do, you know,we're gonna fight it like hell.
Well, good. And have you, andI don't want you to disclose your
legal strategy here, but haveyou thought about taking the offense?
You know, Mr. Wolf, MichaelWolf had filed a billion dollar lawsuit
against Melania. What? Whywouldn't you guys go on the offense
(33:43):
and file something againsthim? I know they're going to claim
it's executive action orwhatever, but at least get something
on the record and maybe getinto some discovery that may, may
help you down the road.
We are. Well, I'll take yourexhortation not to disclose too much.
We have some more options onour list here of things to do, but
(34:05):
one that we did a few monthsago was we filed a formal legal complaint
with two of the inspectorsgeneral in the US Government, the
Department of JusticeInspector General and the Department
of Homeland Security InspectorGeneral, to say we believe that people
inside their agencies are onthe receiving end of an inherently
(34:27):
unconstitutional executiveorder meant to violate my civil rights
and civil liberties. Andthat's the order that Trump put out
in April, and thataccordingly, we would ask those inspectors
general to investigate whichagents and personnel of those departments
are engaged in the executionof an unlawful order. Now, we don't
(34:50):
have a lot of insight into howthe IGs are pursuing this, and I'm
also, you know, cautiouslypessimistic that the IGs across the
government are performingtheir intended functions. A lot of
these inspector generals arevery scared, especially because Trump
fired so many of them when hecame into office. But in normal times,
(35:11):
this would be a guardrail, andwe're going to know sooner or later
here whether that guardraileven exists anymore, whether the
watchmen that were placed byCongress inside these agencies for
exactly this reason, we willknow whether they are still functioning
or not. And like I said, I'mnot terribly optimistic about where
(35:35):
that one goes, but that's afirst step in our escalatory process
of engagement with this administration.
Well, I'm glad to hear that.And, you know, the other thing you
might, you guys might want toconsider is do what Trump did. You
know, he's asking for $230million purportedly from the Justice
Department. He filed a, whatthey call a Form 95, which you file
(35:55):
before you actually initiatelitigation. Why don't you guys do
that? File a billion dollarrequest for compensation based upon
this, these faulty executiveorders and get somebody on the record
to say yes or no. Thoseweren't. And I, I just think, again,
I'm glad to hear you going onthe offense, but I think, you know,
(36:17):
he's going to do whatever he'sgoing to do anyway. So take your
own action, Miles, and, andget aggressive about it and move
forward in a way thatobviously your council has to sign
off on all that. But you wouldget a lot of support from a lot of
people like myself. And Ican't speak for mo, but I assume
so. And, and a Lot of otherfolks on this side of the Trump fight
(36:39):
to help fund it too. And, andI'm sure there would be pro bono
lawyers that would come out ofthe woodwork to help you take an
offensive action against thisbecause it's the only way he ever
listens is when you take himto court. And that's why I filed
this action here in Mitchellcounty was, you know, I wanted to
get their attention andhopefully maybe they wouldn't do
(37:00):
it to other people. So anyway,I'm not a lawyer. I'm not very smart
either, and I'm a littlePisces, so a little bit country,
a little bit rock and roll.But you should, you know, think about
it, think about it.
I appreciate that and I feel alittle bit like it's, I think Taylor
(37:21):
Swift went on a podcast yearsago and someone said to her, hey,
you know, to get out fromunder this terrible label you've
got, you should go re recordyour masters and then you would own
all of your music and theycouldn't go sell your catalog. Talking
to you guys is kind of likethat. It's like, hey, here are a
couple more ideas that youcould go deploy against the guy.
(37:44):
So I appreciate it. We'refortunate to have a killer legal
team. And my head lawyer, AbbyLowell, is currently representing
a number of targets of Trump'srevenge campaign. And you know, hopefully
we don't have to be ondefense, but before that we will
(38:05):
continue to ratchet up theoffense. So grateful for you. And
look, that's what's importantfor people to take away from that,
is that they're not alone. Imean, I'll tell you, in April, it
felt very, very lonely. And itwas scary because even though institutions
had been singled out, lawfirms, universities and others in
(38:27):
presidential executive orders,there hadn't been any individuals,
you know, singled out likethat. And you know, we were concerned
that we would be fighting thisalone. Now. Not that I'm happy to
see the boat getting so bigand so many people getting persecuted.
I'm not. But it makes iteasier for other people to start
pushing back when theyrealize, oh, David's in the boat
(38:50):
and Miles is in the boat andhell, Jimmy Kimmel's in the boat,
Stephen Colbert's in the boat.That gives people, people more courage
to fight back when theyotherwise would not. And it's ultimately
what is so self defeatingabout an autocrat is they cannot
help themselves, that theypunish and they punish and they continue
(39:10):
to punish with the goal ofdeterring others. But over time,
eventually all they do is makeenough enemies to get themselves
opposed and removed. And, youknow, hopefully that's where we end
up. And it looks like we'regoing to have another attempt to
try to defeat the guy in 2028because he's hell bent on being president
(39:33):
again.
Just one quick thing, Mo. Whydid you ask for a meeting with the
motherfucker, you know, go onRachel's show or somebody's show
and say, hey, listen, Mr.President, you know, I realize you've
got feelings about me. Whydon't we sit down and talk about
it? You're the greatnegotiator. Let's negotiate something.
I'll give you a $20 millionworth of my, you know, free advice
(39:54):
over the next 10 years, whichshould be go to hell, go to hell,
go to hell. But that. I justthink people don't think that they
can challenge the guy. Andthey can. He'll say something stupid.
He'll get. You'll getsomething on the record. But I maybe
challenge him to a debate.Challenge him to a IQ test. I don't
know, something.
(40:14):
Or challenge him to an MRItest. You know, they can do his again
and they can do mine, and wecan compare the health of those brains.
You know, release the MRIscans. I think should be up there
with. Release the Epsteinfiles. Well, look, I'll say this,
David. If. If you guys canpersuade him to come onto here, I'll
gladly debate him on the show.I think that would be a. You know,
this would be a great thingfor MUC U.
(40:36):
Well, listen, you know, fromwhat you described, you know what
you. It reminds me, you know,when I was the chief prosecutor at
Guantanamo, I resigned withthe issue of torture. Then, you know,
I had the Bush administration.You're trying to, you know, demonize
me for. For doing that. Andyou really do find out who your friends
are because, you know, whenthings are going well, everybody's
your buddy. But when the shithits the fan, you really find out,
(40:58):
you know, who your friends areand who they aren't. And like you
said, it can be a lonely. Alonely feeling. But, you know, I
think you'll find in the end,you're not going to lose any sleep
over. Over doing the rightthing. I mean, I had the same thing,
like, you know, with me. Youknow, people are saying, keep your
head down and your mouth shutand, you know, you can move up to
bigger and better things. But,you know, I've never lost a minute
(41:20):
of sleep over. Over doing theright thing. So I admire you for
sticking to your Guns andhanging in there. But don't you think
the whole purpose of all this,like with, you know, with you and
Bolton and Comey and James andall those folks, I mean, those are
all, I mean, I think anyattorney would admit are frivolous
cases. But that's not thepoint. The point is to harass. I
(41:42):
mean, it's going to take folkstime and money and mental anguish
and all that crap to have togo through this process. But I think
that's what he wants. I mean,I don't think he's expecting to win
these cases, but he just wantsto make an example of people to deter
others from having theaudacity to stand up to him.
Well, that's right. And ifanyone doubted that, that was the
(42:02):
motivation. The day after thePresident issued his order against
me, Rolling Stone published anarticle where the headline quoted
senior White House officialswho said we had to make an example
out of Miles Taylor. The pointthey made clear was we had to go
after him to deter others fromcriticizing the president. And implicit
(42:26):
in that is the notion that theprocess is the punishment, because
they know it's a vindictiveprosecution. They've known that the
Comey case, the James case,the Bolton case, they've known that
these are vindictiveprosecutions. And many of them will
get thrown out because judgeswill determine that that is the case.
But in the process, as younote, being on that blacklist can
(42:49):
be devastating. And I've beentalking about that for months, not
to have people generatesympathy for my family, but so that
they can understand howserious it is. Just if the President
uses his investigative powersto go after people, even if he loses
all these cases in the court,even if people like me and Comey
(43:10):
and others are completelyvindicated, it doesn't feel like
vindication when you've lostyour job, your business, your financial
security, your savings, yourfamily's sense of safety. All of
those things can and do happenbefore they do a thing. And I thought
I knew what this was likeafter 2020. I mean, there was a,
(43:31):
you know, there was a lot of.A lot of outpouring of animosity
from Trump supporters when Icame forward against him in the 2020
election, but it was nothingcompared to what we've experienced
this year. And again, that'sbefore charges have even dropped.
So they know that. They knowthat the process is the punishment,
(43:54):
and that's why we have tofight hard to get, you know, even
those tools the President hascurtailed by the courts.
Well, if you combine that youknow, the weaponizing of the Justice
Department. You've got, youknow, the far right literally owns
social media and most oftraditional media. And the part they
don't own, they've kind ofwhipped into submission. You've got,
(44:18):
you know, us. You know, havingbeen in the military for 25 years,
I couldn't imagine having UStroops deployed into US cities to
patrol US streets and harassUS citizens. But that's where we
are. And I think you've talkedabout before that you feel like this
is a false flag deployingtroops, and it's looking to provoke
a response that would justifyTrump exercising even greater authority.
(44:43):
But what do you see as the endgame, doing all these different things?
What is the objective forTrump and for his supporters?
Well, those are two differentthings. Trump and his supporters.
And for all of eternity,people in our shoes have asked the
question, you know, why is anautocrat oppressing us? You can go
(45:03):
back to contemporaries in theSoviet Union and Nazi Germany. You
can go back to Rome. And thatquestion is always there when there's
a wannabe autocrat rising theranks. Why are they doing this? You
know, why do they want to. Whydo they want to oppress people? And
the answer, like mostdictators through all of history,
(45:25):
tends to be the same. It'sjust legacy. You know, we're all
driven by the same thing. I'mnot saying that David would be a
dictator or Mo would be adictator, although you probably would
both be benevolent dictators.But we're all driven by legacy and
the desire to survive afterwe've died. It's why a Donald Trump
builds buildings with his nameon it. It's why he wants to build
(45:47):
a ballroom to sit next to theWhite House forever. It's why he
wants to build a monumentacross from the Lincoln Memorial
that he says is for him. It'swhy he wants to consolidate power
in the United States. He wantsto build a legacy. And if you doubt
that, look to who he compareshimself to most frequently. George
(46:07):
Washington and AbrahamLincoln. And, you know, when I was
in the Trump administration, Ithought this was, of course, absurd
that Donald Trump soregularly, in private and in public,
compared himself to. At thetime, he didn't have Washington in
the mix. It was often Lincolnand Ronald Reagan. And I thought,
this guy's insane to think heis as significant a figure in the
(46:30):
Republican Party as RonaldReagan, who defined an entire generation
of conservatives. And now Irealize I was wrong and he was right.
He has made himself moresignificant than Reagan, and I would
say Maybe doubleexponentially. I mean, he is significantly
more impactful now on theRepublican Party and its future than
(46:53):
Ronald Reagan ever was. Andwhy would Donald Trump want that?
Because he wants that legacy.And in the meantime, if he can profit
off of the presidency, he andhis heirs can ensure that the Trump
name exists in perpetuity andhas control. I think that's what
all of this is about. Andagain, that's largely what it boils
(47:15):
down to in world history, whenyou see dictators consolidating power.
Now, I say that's differentthan Trump's followers, because what
do they get out of Trump'senduring legacy? Well, it's what
they get by not turningagainst him, which is they get to
stay in the tribe. And back tothe start of our conversation, that
tribalism is what gets peopleto continue to follow leaders, even
(47:40):
when those leaders light thevalues of the tribe on fire. It's
more important to stay in thetribe than to be a purist ideologically.
And so that's why you have somany people marching after him. It's
why you have American CEOs,who in the 2020 election spent hundreds
of millions of dollars againstDonald Trump, who now show up at
(48:02):
the White House and havedinner with him and fawn over him
and give him what he wants, isthey're scared, they're terrified
that he'll come after them,he'll come after their businesses.
And that fear is the glue.That fear is the glue that keeps
people behind that leader. Sothat's what I think Donald Trump
is trying to do. Where is hegoing with it? He wants to do what
(48:23):
all autocrats do, which isconsolidate power. Name the institution,
name the sector of society. Heis on a quest to consolidate power.
But this time he is doing itsystematically with, I hate to admit
it, very intelligent and savvylieutenants, some of them, many of
them are exquisitely stupid.But the, the Stephen Millers and
(48:45):
the Russ Votes and othersaround Donald Trump are working very
systematically to make surethese institutions, whether it's
the media, whether it'seducation, whether it's the legal
sector, are brought to heel sothat he can advance his power. And
it is bearing fruit. It isworking. As an example, at this point,
in the First Trumpadministration, 75% of the lawsuits
(49:06):
brought by the administrationwere brought by the major law firms
in this country. Today, thatnumber is 15%. Even though the courts
have ruled that the executiveorders punishing the law firms were
unconstitutional. It doesn'tmatter. These firms are self censoring
and they are staying out ofthe fight. It has worked, and that's
(49:28):
what he'll continue to do. Andif people think that this year was
bad, they ain't seen nothingyet because this was the lay the
foundation year. Next year forthem is execution year.
Yeah. And we're almost out oftime, but I just want to ask you
real quickly. You know, youtalked about being a lifelong Republican,
but a while back, you startedthe Renew America movement, which
(49:51):
is now merged into the ForwardParty. So can you tell listeners
just a little bit about theForward Party and what you're trying
to do with it?
Yeah, I'm not currently amember of it. I mean, I did that,
you know, look, to help theirexperiment get some legs. But I had
started Renew America Movementto try to rally concerned Republicans
together to turn the tide ofthe GOP back the rational direction
(50:15):
and to try to get concernedAmericans around a. Not necessarily
to change the party itself,but to bring conservatism back into
a more moderate direction. Ican say that I failed catastrophically.
And a lot of other Republicanslike Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger,
who likewise builtorganizations with the same goal,
(50:38):
have failed. And so one of thethings at the time I thought was
worth experimenting with wasthird party politics. And so we folded
our organization into aneffort launched by Andrew Yang to
go try to create a competitivethird party in the United States.
You know, it's stillstruggling, I think, to get its sea
legs, but I'm very convincedthat Andrew's goal and the goal of
(51:05):
others associated with themovement is a noble one and is actually
starting to gain a little bitmore steam and is one of the few
pathways out of this crisisthat we are in, because after Donald
Trump leaves, I expect therewill be ping pong politics. We are
already hearing from the farleft a desire to use the same tools
(51:26):
Trump has used, but to reversewhat he's done. The term fight fire
with fire, you know, has like,spiked in usage on social media,
on the left. This is going toresult in, you know, at some point,
left wing leaders doing someof the same things that they decried.
And even if it's in the nameof reversing Trump's decisions, then
(51:46):
you've just got that, thatseesaw of politics where the sides
are going to get morevitriolic. And one of the few ways
to break that is to introducemore competition back into our democracy,
to introduce more choices onthe ballot. And one of those potential
ways is a third party. And infact, my friends who are still involved
with Forward Party I thinkthey're meeting right now at some
summit and havingconversations. They've got folks
(52:07):
on the ballot next year. It'sexciting. The question always is,
you know, can a third partysucceed in America? I think the answer
to that is, is yes. I thinkthe. The environment is ripe, but
it's. It's always a questionof timing. So, you know, we'll see.
In the meantime, I am a. I'm ahumble independent who's focused
(52:31):
on trying to limit the damageas much as humanly possible before
in some way, shape or form,this guy is gone.
Well, it's a noble cause, andyou're the right guy to do it. It's
been such a pleasure to get toknow you a little bit more, Miles.
It's really interesting that,you know, we try and get Democrats
on this show if we end up withthe moderate former Republicans as
(52:55):
the majority of our guests,and they're always as informed and
intelligent as you are. And soI want to thank you for coming on
the show.
They took my party, but theycan't take my brain away from me.
That's true. That's true.Well, one more question for you,
and then we'll call it a day.But, I mean, when is too much for
(53:17):
you? I mean, if you thoughtabout hitting the road to Canada,
do you have an Xfield plan? Imean, I have an exfil plan. I mean,
I know where I'm going to goand how I'm going to get there and
what it's going to cost. Buthow about you?
Look, I'm staying here tofight this until it's over. You know,
it won't surprise you that alot of folks came to me after April
and said, look, you know, thisguy's not going to rest until some
(53:39):
of you are in prison. Youknow, it may not be all of you because,
you know, a lot of you, hejust wants the punishment to be or
the process to be thepunishment, but he's going to try
to lock people up. And, youknow, I had folks encourage me to
flee, but, you know, I feltlike especially being in the crosshairs
is reason enough not to,because the last thing I want to
(54:02):
do is be the first person tosend the signal of this country is
not redeemable, and the onlyoption is to exit. And so I want
to fight. I want to fight andwin in the courts and make sure that
we do what we can to preservethe last vestiges of the rule of
law. And, you know, I hopewe're successful in that and on the
(54:25):
back end of it, you can betyour ass I'm going to be looking
for a vacation home in some,some foreign country at least to
go to every now and again. Butthat won't be until this is over.
Well, and hopefully thegovernment will pay for that house
for you.
That's right. Amen.
Or the Trump Organization.It'd be better if I guess maybe Eric
(54:45):
paid for it, but we'll seeabout that. Well, again, our guest
today on MUCU has been MilesTaylor. Terrific guy. Give folks
a way to get a hold of you orfollow you on the socials and the
name of your latest book.
Yeah, they can follow me onmost social media platforms, MilesTaylor
(55:07):
USA or onsubstack@treason.substack.com the
substack is so named becauseif Donald Trump thinks that dissent
is treason, then I am a proudtraitor. And my most recent book
is called Blowback A Warningto Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge.
(55:27):
And apparently Americansdidn't heed that warning.
Well, heed the warning thistime, folks. Mo, if I end up in Guantanamo,
is there a special room that Ishould request or.
I think it's going to beinteresting. I think the hurricane
is maybe doing a number onGuantanamo right now. You may not
(55:48):
have to worry about it.
Jail, jail, jailbreak downthere, I guess. Yeah.
All right, Miles, thank you somuch. Thank you, Mo, for joining
this episode of Muck you.We'll see you next time.
Thanks, everybody.
Thanks, Miles.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville
and David Wheeler in SprucePine, North Carolina. Did I mention
(56:09):
that Mo married up? He's luckyLisa puts up with him. Thanks to
our guest today, Mr. MilesTaylor, a national security expert
and best selling author whoserved as Staff of the U.S. department
of Homeland Security andanonymous author of the New York
Times op ed. I am part of theresistance inside the Trump administration
has become a leadingcommentator on democracy reform.
(56:30):
A special thanks to EmilyMatthews for helping get Miles on
our show. Muck you is producedby by American muckrakers. Copyright
2025 and all rights arereserved. Enjoy additional episodes
with Mike Madrid, Errol Musk,Pamela Hemphill, Denver Riggleman,
Anthony Scaramucci, DavidJolly, Adam Kinzinger, Paul Bagala,
(56:52):
Mark McKinnon andothers@AmericanMokrakers.com Please
subscribe and support our workon Substack. Thanks for listening
and y' all come back for thenext episode. Soda Muck you.
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